WEBVTT - Setting boundaries when there's too much to do, with Amy Wilson 0:00:02.960 --> 0:00:06.600 Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio. 0:00:08.680 --> 0:00:13.880 Good Morning, This is Laura. Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast. 0:00:14.560 --> 0:00:18.120 Today's episode is going to be a longer one part 0:00:18.160 --> 0:00:21.239 of the series where I interview fascinating people about how 0:00:21.239 --> 0:00:23.680 they take their days from great to awesome and any 0:00:23.680 --> 0:00:26.480 advice they might have for the rest of us. So 0:00:26.560 --> 0:00:29.760 today I am delighted to welcome Amy Wilson to the show. 0:00:30.360 --> 0:00:33.360 Amy is the co host of the excellent podcast What 0:00:33.520 --> 0:00:36.760 Fresh Hell. She is also an actor who's been on 0:00:36.840 --> 0:00:40.279 many shows, including the TV show Norms. She's appeared on Broadway. 0:00:40.720 --> 0:00:42.960 She is also the author of a brand new book 0:00:43.000 --> 0:00:47.880 of essays called Happy to Help Adventures of a People Pleaser. Amy, 0:00:48.040 --> 0:00:48.800 Welcome to the show. 0:00:48.880 --> 0:00:50.320 Thank you, Laura, thank you for having me. 0:00:50.720 --> 0:00:51.880 I'm excited to have you on this. 0:00:52.080 --> 0:00:54.680 So maybe you could introduce yourself to our listeners. Just 0:00:54.720 --> 0:00:56.560 a little bit about your life, your work. 0:00:57.080 --> 0:00:59.840 Okay, so yeah, I shouted out as a performer and 0:01:00.000 --> 0:01:02.560 a sketch comedian. As you said, always wrote my own 0:01:02.880 --> 0:01:05.840 things to perform. Always found that I got farther writing 0:01:05.880 --> 0:01:08.800 my own material in terms of playing the roles I 0:01:08.840 --> 0:01:11.600 wanted to play, and once I became a parent, moved 0:01:11.640 --> 0:01:15.520 into creating content for parenting, did a show called mother 0:01:15.560 --> 0:01:17.759 Love that toured around the country for a while. Out 0:01:17.800 --> 0:01:20.360 of that, got my book deal for a book called 0:01:20.360 --> 0:01:22.039 When Did I Get Like This? That came out in 0:01:22.080 --> 0:01:24.920 twenty ten, around the same time as your first book. 0:01:24.959 --> 0:01:26.280 I believe because that's how we first met. 0:01:26.280 --> 0:01:28.200 I've been in this business for a very long That's. 0:01:28.040 --> 0:01:30.560 Right, we've met. I've been on the road for book promotion, 0:01:30.959 --> 0:01:36.039 and since then my life took many personal turns that 0:01:36.080 --> 0:01:39.440 are certainly laid out in the book and started What 0:01:39.520 --> 0:01:43.759 Fresh Hell in twenty sixteen and found my way back 0:01:43.880 --> 0:01:47.000 to writing this second book after writing a novel that 0:01:47.040 --> 0:01:50.040 didn't work. A few different things that are all part 0:01:50.040 --> 0:01:52.120 of the journey. This book is finally coming out. I'm 0:01:52.160 --> 0:01:52.760 so excited. 0:01:53.360 --> 0:01:56.240 Yeah, and What Fresh Hell? I mean launching in twenty sixteen, 0:01:56.240 --> 0:02:00.240 that was pretty early in the podcast day, correct it is. 0:02:00.320 --> 0:02:02.880 Yeah. Margaret Abeles, my co host, was somebody that I 0:02:03.000 --> 0:02:05.480 was acquainted with. But really that was it again, like 0:02:05.640 --> 0:02:09.160 knew each other from the space and she said she 0:02:09.240 --> 0:02:10.440 took me out to lunch and said, so, I have 0:02:10.480 --> 0:02:13.400 an idea, what if we did a podcast together? At 0:02:13.400 --> 0:02:16.560 the time I mean I knew her, I didn't know 0:02:16.600 --> 0:02:17.120 how many. 0:02:17.000 --> 0:02:18.920 Kids she had, how old they were. 0:02:19.200 --> 0:02:21.600 People assumed that we were always best friends, and we 0:02:21.680 --> 0:02:24.960 have certainly become very close friends and work wives. But 0:02:25.240 --> 0:02:27.760 at the time we didn't know each other that well 0:02:27.800 --> 0:02:29.359 at all. We just kind of thought the other person 0:02:29.440 --> 0:02:33.840 was funny and started the podcast on a whim. Let's 0:02:33.840 --> 0:02:36.440 try this, let's do something fun together. I don't think 0:02:36.440 --> 0:02:38.200 we could ever have predicted we'd be doing it all 0:02:38.200 --> 0:02:40.640 these years later. But it's still fun, so we're still doing. 0:02:40.600 --> 0:02:41.600 It, still doing it. 0:02:41.680 --> 0:02:44.600 Yeah, what people who If you haven't listened to What 0:02:44.680 --> 0:02:47.280 Fresh Hell, you should everyone who's listening to this podcast. 0:02:47.400 --> 0:02:49.200 But one of the things that makes it so interesting 0:02:49.400 --> 0:02:53.639 is Amy and Margaret have slightly different personnel, lightly slightly. 0:02:54.520 --> 0:02:57.519 Margaret's a bit more of a free form sort of person. 0:02:57.560 --> 0:03:00.440 I think Amy, you have described yourself as very things, 0:03:00.440 --> 0:03:03.120 as a type a kind of person as you've used 0:03:03.160 --> 0:03:06.720 words such as recovering perfectionist. Maybe you can talk about 0:03:06.760 --> 0:03:09.679 how you came to write this book, Happy to Help 0:03:09.720 --> 0:03:12.480 Adventures of a People Pleaser, I mean, what it means 0:03:12.520 --> 0:03:15.120 to discover that one is a people pleaser in life. 0:03:15.200 --> 0:03:17.079 Yeah, with me, I mean, I think I am and 0:03:17.360 --> 0:03:20.120 am not a people pleaser as I've looked into this more, 0:03:20.200 --> 0:03:24.200 but what I definitely am is an over deliverer. I've 0:03:24.200 --> 0:03:26.320 actually found a very old episode of the podcast where 0:03:26.320 --> 0:03:28.280 I said I was a sticker outer, and I'm like, well, 0:03:28.360 --> 0:03:28.720 that's it. 0:03:28.760 --> 0:03:30.240 I wish I thought of that for the cover a 0:03:30.280 --> 0:03:30.880 sticker outer. 0:03:31.320 --> 0:03:34.880 I stick with things. I see things through to a 0:03:35.000 --> 0:03:40.320 complete fault, and sometimes that is the right thing to do. 0:03:40.400 --> 0:03:44.640 It's certainly a good trait to have sometimes. But I 0:03:44.760 --> 0:03:50.960 have definitely stuck with relationships, jobs, you know, ideas that 0:03:51.080 --> 0:03:53.080 kept me stuck that I just thought, well, it was 0:03:53.160 --> 0:03:54.920 me and I just have to work harder, and I'm 0:03:54.960 --> 0:03:58.800 going to make this unfixable situation fixed. And I think 0:03:58.800 --> 0:04:00.960 that's where I got stuck. And I came up with 0:04:00.960 --> 0:04:04.200 the idea because I was actually talking to Ziby Owens 0:04:04.280 --> 0:04:06.720 about writing a book for Ziby Books, who was publishing 0:04:06.720 --> 0:04:09.280 this book, and she suggested that I sort of engage 0:04:09.280 --> 0:04:13.080 with the idea of slack in our lives and when 0:04:13.080 --> 0:04:14.840 we have to pick up the slack, when we have 0:04:14.880 --> 0:04:17.480 to give ourselves slack, other people slack. So I was 0:04:17.520 --> 0:04:20.080 sort of whiteboarding that out and the column that had 0:04:20.120 --> 0:04:22.360 nothing in it was times that I had to pick 0:04:22.400 --> 0:04:25.039 up the slack that I hadn't worked hard enough. And 0:04:25.120 --> 0:04:27.920 the longer that column stayed empty, the more I realized, Oh, 0:04:27.960 --> 0:04:30.280 that's what's the book is about that. I don't know. 0:04:30.960 --> 0:04:33.039 I don't know how to not give it my all, 0:04:33.279 --> 0:04:35.480 even when it was a terrible idea to do that. 0:04:36.760 --> 0:04:39.560 Yeah, and so I know a lot of us are 0:04:39.680 --> 0:04:43.440 juggling many things in life as you are, you know, work, family, home, etc. 0:04:44.000 --> 0:04:46.159 I mean, one of the things you've written about is 0:04:46.160 --> 0:04:49.320 that a lot of the sort of traditional productivity advice 0:04:49.400 --> 0:04:53.479 like say no right, just say no more often isn't 0:04:53.760 --> 0:04:57.679 particularly helpful maybe for people who are. 0:04:59.040 --> 0:05:00.520 Committed to seeing things through and all that. 0:05:00.520 --> 0:05:02.640 Maybe you could talk a little bit about why is 0:05:02.680 --> 0:05:04.279 this productivity advice unhelpful? 0:05:04.320 --> 0:05:07.400 Well, I think it's from the point of view of 0:05:07.720 --> 0:05:10.599 people who aren't the people ask in the first place. 0:05:11.000 --> 0:05:12.520 You know, Like people were like, just say no, there's 0:05:12.520 --> 0:05:14.800 a complete sentence, and like nobody ever asked me to 0:05:14.839 --> 0:05:17.160 do stuff. Well, right, they don't, but they ask me 0:05:17.360 --> 0:05:19.840 to do stuff because I'm the person who over delivers 0:05:20.080 --> 0:05:22.520 and who doesn't say no, and who shows up every time, 0:05:22.880 --> 0:05:26.400 and so for people like me to rewrite the narrative. 0:05:27.240 --> 0:05:29.240 You know, I've had success over the last couple of 0:05:29.279 --> 0:05:31.479 years while I was writing this book living this out 0:05:31.480 --> 0:05:34.480 in my life. Why do I always say yes, are 0:05:34.520 --> 0:05:37.040 there places where I can hand things over? And then 0:05:37.080 --> 0:05:39.640 I'd try to and that wouldn't work either, and saying 0:05:39.640 --> 0:05:43.000 no didn't work either. Or I'd say no and nobody 0:05:43.040 --> 0:05:45.760 would say, oh, okay. In that case, I'll start doing 0:05:45.760 --> 0:05:48.400 it all, you know, I'll host Thanksgiving or something like that. 0:05:48.800 --> 0:05:52.800 Doesn't always happen. It's not as simple as you stop 0:05:52.839 --> 0:05:56.320 worrying about things and they magically resolve. You stop doing things, 0:05:56.320 --> 0:06:00.600 and somebody else picks up the slack. That doesn't happen often. 0:06:00.680 --> 0:06:02.520 And so what you really have to get comfortable with 0:06:02.839 --> 0:06:06.960 is the thing not happening at all, or people being 0:06:06.960 --> 0:06:10.839 disappointed in you, or things remaining uncertain, which I think 0:06:10.960 --> 0:06:14.040 getting comfortable with uncertainty is probably the key to everything. 0:06:14.120 --> 0:06:16.280 But I had to learn how to do that in 0:06:16.400 --> 0:06:20.360 order to be okay with stopping sooner. 0:06:21.279 --> 0:06:24.040 Well, let's talk about that Thanksgiving one, because that strikes 0:06:24.040 --> 0:06:27.479 me as one that yes, the result is that you 0:06:27.600 --> 0:06:30.320 just don't have a big group Thanksgiving. But maybe that 0:06:30.400 --> 0:06:31.640 isn't the end of the world. 0:06:31.560 --> 0:06:33.360 Right, Maybe that isn't the end of the world. I mean, 0:06:33.360 --> 0:06:35.159 there's some things that you really can't say no to. 0:06:35.320 --> 0:06:38.080 Right If your aunt breaks your hip and you're the 0:06:38.080 --> 0:06:39.960 only one who lives in the same town, you're probably 0:06:39.960 --> 0:06:41.920 going to be taking her to a few doctor's appointments, 0:06:42.320 --> 0:06:45.400 and you can say no and put yourself first and 0:06:45.440 --> 0:06:47.360 hold a boundary. But then you're kind of a jerk, right, 0:06:47.400 --> 0:06:50.479 And so then what are the other things that you 0:06:50.520 --> 0:06:52.680 can put down? Because that kind of feels like nothing. 0:06:52.839 --> 0:06:56.000 Maybe they're hosting Thanksgiving is something you can put down. 0:06:56.480 --> 0:06:59.520 But when I think you're somebody who's traditionally taken on 0:06:59.600 --> 0:07:02.400 a lot, been the capable one that people can count on, 0:07:02.720 --> 0:07:05.839 you look around at your too long list which of 0:07:05.839 --> 0:07:08.559 these things? I can you think? Which of these things 0:07:08.560 --> 0:07:10.480 am I going to put down? And the answer feels 0:07:10.480 --> 0:07:10.880 like nothing? 0:07:11.760 --> 0:07:14.200 Well, it's part of that then that other people sort 0:07:14.200 --> 0:07:16.200 of feed into this relationship. Like if you have a 0:07:16.280 --> 0:07:19.560 relationship with a capable one and your family you or 0:07:19.560 --> 0:07:21.559 your spouse or your best friend or whatever it happens 0:07:21.640 --> 0:07:26.160 to be, does that tend to create some sort of 0:07:26.440 --> 0:07:29.240 less capability on the part of the other people. 0:07:29.320 --> 0:07:31.040 Is that how that work? 0:07:31.120 --> 0:07:33.600 I think so, And I don't think it's intentional, and 0:07:33.680 --> 0:07:38.640 I don't think it's malicious. It's just everybody around you 0:07:38.720 --> 0:07:42.440 is pretty disincentivized to do it. You've always done it before, 0:07:42.720 --> 0:07:44.400 and sometimes you've probably said you're not going to do 0:07:44.480 --> 0:07:46.800 it this year, and then you did it anyway, and 0:07:46.880 --> 0:07:49.760 so why wouldn't they keep going the way things were? 0:07:49.800 --> 0:07:53.840 It works pretty well for everybody else. So this redistributions. 0:07:54.000 --> 0:07:56.840 It's hard work and it can happen, but you have 0:07:56.920 --> 0:07:59.480 to ask and then ask again, and then say and 0:07:59.520 --> 0:08:01.960 then say again, and that the redistribution is a lot 0:08:02.000 --> 0:08:05.280 of work too, which is worth it. But I just 0:08:05.320 --> 0:08:09.600 think to the overwhelmed woman in particular, the world often 0:08:09.720 --> 0:08:13.760 says that it's your mindset. You know, you just need 0:08:13.800 --> 0:08:16.160 to relax. Things will get done, says the person who 0:08:16.160 --> 0:08:17.960 knows that you will do the things right. So it's 0:08:18.080 --> 0:08:21.480 just get a sense of humor about it. Stop liking 0:08:21.520 --> 0:08:23.960 to make things harder than they need to be. Are 0:08:23.960 --> 0:08:24.920 you doing that sometimes? 0:08:24.960 --> 0:08:25.360 Probably? 0:08:25.400 --> 0:08:27.520 Are you doing that all the time? No? But I 0:08:27.560 --> 0:08:31.640 feel like that's too often the only advice you get instead. 0:08:31.360 --> 0:08:34.320 Of help yeah, absolutely, But we're going to take a 0:08:34.360 --> 0:08:36.080 quick ad break and then I will be back with 0:08:36.120 --> 0:08:37.200 more from Amy Wilson. 0:08:44.360 --> 0:08:45.120 Well, I am back. 0:08:45.200 --> 0:08:47.920 This is one of the longer episodes of Before Breakfast. 0:08:47.960 --> 0:08:50.320 I am interviewing Amy Wilson, who is the author of 0:08:50.320 --> 0:08:53.160 the brand new book of essays, Happy to Help Adventures 0:08:53.200 --> 0:08:55.439 of a People Pleaser. So, Amy, I mean, there's a 0:08:55.480 --> 0:08:57.640 lot of different short essays in this book, I mean 0:08:57.800 --> 0:09:00.400 kind of quick read for people. What would you say 0:09:00.559 --> 0:09:04.520 was your favorite one of this to write? 0:09:05.520 --> 0:09:10.079 My favorite one was My eighth grade Diary, an exploration 0:09:10.160 --> 0:09:11.800 of my eighth grade diary, which is the only year 0:09:11.840 --> 0:09:14.480 I kept a diary in my whole life. And my 0:09:14.559 --> 0:09:18.280 friend Julie recently said that the eighth grade you is 0:09:18.600 --> 0:09:22.679 the most technicolor version of you of anyone. That it 0:09:22.760 --> 0:09:25.280 is you, right, and when you look back, why it's 0:09:25.360 --> 0:09:29.720 so cringey is because like there you were in highly 0:09:29.840 --> 0:09:33.200 you know, crystallized form, waiting to burst forth. And that 0:09:33.320 --> 0:09:34.839 was certainly true for me. And when I went back 0:09:34.840 --> 0:09:37.720 and looked at my eighth grade diary, I was constantly 0:09:37.720 --> 0:09:41.360 giving myself assignments. And the last thing I wrote in 0:09:41.360 --> 0:09:44.320 my eighth grade diary was that I had to do 0:09:44.360 --> 0:09:47.040 everything I could to make the people I really love happy. 0:09:47.880 --> 0:09:50.480 And I found that after I started writing this book, 0:09:50.520 --> 0:09:52.800 and then I went back and found that diary. I'm like, 0:09:52.800 --> 0:09:54.880 holy cow, I was telling myself that when I was 0:09:54.920 --> 0:09:58.520 thirteen that I had to do everything I could. And 0:09:58.559 --> 0:10:01.720 I think that that's that sort of hallmark sentiment is 0:10:01.720 --> 0:10:04.080 something a lot of us. I think it's kind of 0:10:04.160 --> 0:10:07.720 drilled into all young women. But for some reason I 0:10:07.800 --> 0:10:09.480 ran with it. For some reason, I was like, that's right, 0:10:09.520 --> 0:10:10.480 and I'm gonna do it too. 0:10:11.200 --> 0:10:14.160 And You've talked a little bit about this maybe eldest daughter, 0:10:14.280 --> 0:10:16.400 so yeah, yeah, right, what is that? 0:10:16.720 --> 0:10:19.480 So I am everybody knows about this eldest daughter syndrome. 0:10:19.520 --> 0:10:22.760 Everybody's talking about that. You're sort of a type a personality, 0:10:22.800 --> 0:10:25.280 but it's visited upon you by your circumstances, which I 0:10:25.320 --> 0:10:27.680 firmly agree with. In my case, I'm the oldest of 0:10:27.679 --> 0:10:31.640 six kids, my mother was the oldest of eight kids. 0:10:32.360 --> 0:10:35.720 I'm the oldest of twenty five first cousins, and so 0:10:35.840 --> 0:10:39.280 I think that, yeah, I'm sort of like a. 0:10:38.679 --> 0:10:41.080 Super double triple eldest sister. 0:10:41.160 --> 0:10:43.360 I mean, I really, I was really soaking in it 0:10:43.520 --> 0:10:46.560 during my formative years. And see, I grew up since 0:10:46.559 --> 0:10:48.680 I was in second grade. I was babysitting for free 0:10:48.679 --> 0:10:51.680 and changing diapers, and I liked it, and I was 0:10:51.760 --> 0:10:54.480 good at it. I wasn't a grade schooler who was 0:10:54.720 --> 0:10:58.000 seething with resentment. I got a lot of identity from it, 0:10:58.080 --> 0:11:03.040 from being a happy helper, And I think that couldn't 0:11:03.040 --> 0:11:06.280 help but shape me, not even necessarily for the worst, 0:11:06.320 --> 0:11:08.320 but it did shape me that I love to help 0:11:08.400 --> 0:11:10.760 other people and that's what I'm good at, and that's 0:11:10.760 --> 0:11:12.400 where I draw my self esteem. 0:11:13.520 --> 0:11:15.560 So one of the things we like to do on 0:11:15.600 --> 0:11:18.600 this show is share practical tips, right, and so obviously 0:11:18.679 --> 0:11:21.920 there's many psychological things to unpack with what makes someone 0:11:22.559 --> 0:11:28.320 a people pleaser or maybe has difficulties broadly with setting boundaries. 0:11:28.400 --> 0:11:31.880 But let's say someone is, you know, resolving in the 0:11:31.920 --> 0:11:36.080 new year to set better boundaries. Are there some practical 0:11:36.240 --> 0:11:39.600 small things that you would suggest people start doing. 0:11:39.679 --> 0:11:42.280 I think that for me, I had to learn that 0:11:42.400 --> 0:11:45.520 saying no was the first step the whole Like saying 0:11:45.559 --> 0:11:47.679 no is a complete sentence thing. Never I just sort 0:11:47.720 --> 0:11:50.800 of thought, like I know that, but when I say no, 0:11:50.960 --> 0:11:54.679 then nothing changes that Saying no What you really have 0:11:54.760 --> 0:11:57.920 to prepare yourself for is the silence that will follow, 0:11:58.040 --> 0:12:02.120 usually uncomfortable silence. Again not malicious, but when you say 0:12:02.600 --> 0:12:04.720 I'm going to need to step down from this committee. 0:12:05.640 --> 0:12:06.920 Some things have come up and I'm going to need 0:12:06.920 --> 0:12:10.079 to step down that there's this you know, there'll be 0:12:10.120 --> 0:12:14.120 a long, confused silence that will follow. And that's where 0:12:14.160 --> 0:12:18.360 I had to really learn to not say, I mean, 0:12:18.400 --> 0:12:20.160 I guess I could stick around till we find somebody else, 0:12:20.200 --> 0:12:21.600 or I mean I guess I could be the vice 0:12:21.640 --> 0:12:22.400 person on the committee. 0:12:22.440 --> 0:12:25.079 Like that, you you are. 0:12:25.360 --> 0:12:26.800 Everybody's a little uncomfortable. 0:12:27.120 --> 0:12:29.240 Everybody else is like, wait, what, she's not going to 0:12:29.320 --> 0:12:30.880 do the committee. I don't want to do the committee either. 0:12:30.880 --> 0:12:32.960 Who's going to do the committee? While everybody's sort of 0:12:32.960 --> 0:12:36.199 cogitating on that, I think I would take it all back, 0:12:36.320 --> 0:12:38.880 or take some of it back, rush to fill the silence, 0:12:39.280 --> 0:12:41.800 and to me, like no is the easy part. The 0:12:41.960 --> 0:12:47.440 silence and sitting on my hands while nothing happens at first, 0:12:47.600 --> 0:12:49.680 that's the hard part. But if you can sit through 0:12:49.760 --> 0:12:55.800 that and that discomfort and that silence, like things are changing, 0:12:55.920 --> 0:13:00.680 things are changing slowly, and that uncertainty is something that 0:13:00.720 --> 0:13:03.720 I've spent a whole life trying to rescue other people 0:13:03.760 --> 0:13:09.280 from myself first and foremost, I suppose, And once I 0:13:09.360 --> 0:13:11.240 learned to live with that, I don't know what's going 0:13:11.320 --> 0:13:14.120 to happen next, but I can't do it, things started 0:13:14.160 --> 0:13:15.040 to really shift from me. 0:13:15.600 --> 0:13:19.000 Yeah. Well, uncertainty is challenging for many people. I mean, 0:13:19.000 --> 0:13:21.600 it's also the nature of life, right, we just don't 0:13:21.640 --> 0:13:23.719 know what's going to happen. But I mean, certainly there 0:13:23.760 --> 0:13:28.160 is the advice who don't negotiate against yourself. Yes, yes, 0:13:28.320 --> 0:13:31.319 that it is in that silence where somebody is deciding 0:13:31.800 --> 0:13:34.960 what their counteroffer is going to be, but you don't 0:13:34.960 --> 0:13:36.760 need to make the counteroffer for them. 0:13:36.920 --> 0:13:39.760 Very very well, said I wish I had heard that 0:13:39.800 --> 0:13:40.840 twenty years ago. 0:13:42.760 --> 0:13:43.840 Exactly exactly. 0:13:44.800 --> 0:13:47.520 So, I mean you've written people listening to this movie 0:13:47.559 --> 0:13:50.040 Beyonest Song, it sounds like Amy's are perfectionist. But you've 0:13:50.440 --> 0:13:53.040 said you don't really like that word perfectionist. 0:13:53.200 --> 0:13:53.840 Let's talk about that. 0:13:53.960 --> 0:13:56.560 So in the book, I go through all the different 0:13:56.920 --> 0:13:59.800 forms of advice that I have received that women tend 0:13:59.800 --> 0:14:02.280 to see when we say that we're overwhelmed, that we 0:14:02.280 --> 0:14:05.480 can't do it all, that we're we really need some 0:14:05.520 --> 0:14:07.600 help in the situation written. What we tend to get 0:14:07.600 --> 0:14:11.240 back is advice to fix ourselves, and I think a 0:14:11.280 --> 0:14:16.679 perfectionist is certainly one of those things. Stop being a perfectionist. 0:14:16.960 --> 0:14:19.600 You have too much to do because you're trying to 0:14:19.640 --> 0:14:22.800 make everything perfect. And I think I took that on 0:14:22.880 --> 0:14:24.440 for a long time, like, oh, that's right, I'm such 0:14:24.440 --> 0:14:26.440 a perfectionist, And then I really stopped and thought about it, 0:14:26.440 --> 0:14:29.120 and I thought, you know, that doesn't really resonate for me. 0:14:29.720 --> 0:14:34.640 A perfectionist, to me is somebody who is so caught. 0:14:34.680 --> 0:14:39.560 And also, perfectionism is something that is primarily applied to women. 0:14:39.760 --> 0:14:43.119 It's really hard to find men out there self identifying 0:14:43.120 --> 0:14:45.240 as perfectionists and talking about how they get in their 0:14:45.280 --> 0:14:49.400 own way. But I know I accomplish a lot, I 0:14:49.440 --> 0:14:52.040 get through a lot. It's just I have a lot 0:14:52.080 --> 0:14:55.640 on my plate, and I do know how to not 0:14:55.680 --> 0:14:58.320 sweat the small stuff. I don't care what my kitchen 0:14:58.360 --> 0:15:00.320 sink looks like. I don't care what my my hair 0:15:00.440 --> 0:15:01.960 looks like when I go to yoga, Like, I'm not 0:15:02.040 --> 0:15:06.200 that kind of person who is so overcome with having 0:15:06.200 --> 0:15:08.240 everything to be perfect that I can't get enough done. 0:15:08.280 --> 0:15:10.880 That's definitely not my problem. My problem is I simply 0:15:10.960 --> 0:15:13.040 have too much to do because I've taken too much on, 0:15:13.880 --> 0:15:16.200 which I think is a different problem. And when you're 0:15:16.240 --> 0:15:18.720 fed back, we'll stop being a perfectionist or get a 0:15:18.760 --> 0:15:21.240 sense of humor or these things that are about go 0:15:21.360 --> 0:15:24.480 change this failing in yourself and then the fact that 0:15:24.520 --> 0:15:26.600 you have too much to do will magically resolve. Well, 0:15:26.640 --> 0:15:30.320 it doesn't work, and I love an assignment. So I 0:15:30.360 --> 0:15:33.080 spend a lot of time trying each of these methods, 0:15:33.440 --> 0:15:35.400 right to lean in to care less, I mean, I 0:15:35.400 --> 0:15:39.920 did them all, and none of them resolved the situation. 0:15:40.080 --> 0:15:43.280 It's the situation that sometimes has to be really addressed. 0:15:43.640 --> 0:15:45.840 Yeah, although when we do have too much to do, 0:15:45.920 --> 0:15:47.360 I mean, we still have to deal with what is 0:15:47.440 --> 0:15:50.160 right in front of us. Yes, So I'm curious what 0:15:50.200 --> 0:15:54.040 does your planning process look like? I mean, I know, 0:15:54.160 --> 0:15:58.240 for me, dealing with the entirely huge pile of stuff 0:15:58.320 --> 0:16:02.240 professionally and personally often at least partly a matter of 0:16:02.280 --> 0:16:05.720 figuring out what exactly is in the pile and then 0:16:05.880 --> 0:16:09.880 roughly when the things will be addressed in the pile. 0:16:10.000 --> 0:16:12.960 That's the personal Kamband method that I learned about when 0:16:12.960 --> 0:16:16.320 I was researching this book. Jim Benson sort of took 0:16:16.320 --> 0:16:20.080 the Kamband method and adjusted it for personal use. And 0:16:20.120 --> 0:16:22.320 that's his sort of basic thing, that you have to 0:16:22.480 --> 0:16:25.520 engage with the entirety of all the things you could 0:16:25.600 --> 0:16:28.200 be doing. And he says write them on post it notes, 0:16:28.240 --> 0:16:30.240 which I do find really helps me get out the 0:16:30.240 --> 0:16:33.520 post it notes. Write each thing, the dry cleaners, and 0:16:33.680 --> 0:16:36.440 the draft of the chapter four, they each get a 0:16:36.440 --> 0:16:38.520 post it note, and you engage with them all. I 0:16:38.600 --> 0:16:40.440 use different color post it notes for different parts of 0:16:40.520 --> 0:16:43.880 my life. Then you pick three and you put them 0:16:43.880 --> 0:16:46.240 in your doing column, and you leave the other ones alone, 0:16:46.760 --> 0:16:48.640 and you do the three. And then when as you 0:16:48.720 --> 0:16:50.760 do each one of the three, you move it to 0:16:50.800 --> 0:16:53.560 the done column. And you can't move anything into the 0:16:53.600 --> 0:16:55.840 doing column until you've moved one of your three things 0:16:55.880 --> 0:16:58.720 to done. Now, my doing column always has like seven 0:16:58.760 --> 0:17:01.640 things in it, not three. But when I'm feeling like 0:17:01.680 --> 0:17:03.120 today is one of those days that I feel like 0:17:03.200 --> 0:17:06.320 I have seven hundred things to do and I need 0:17:06.359 --> 0:17:08.240 to have first engaged with. Yep, here's everything I have 0:17:08.280 --> 0:17:11.440 to do. I won't do it all. That's okay, Let's 0:17:11.480 --> 0:17:13.560 pick the three things that are jumping out at me 0:17:13.640 --> 0:17:15.840 right now as either the most urgent or just the 0:17:15.840 --> 0:17:21.080 most I feel like doing that right now, right, and 0:17:21.720 --> 0:17:24.840 do those three and don't engage with the entirety of 0:17:24.880 --> 0:17:27.200 my list while I'm doing those things, just engage with 0:17:27.240 --> 0:17:31.240 the next three things. It really helps me get more 0:17:31.280 --> 0:17:33.480 done and feel less panicked. 0:17:33.440 --> 0:17:35.520 Less panic to get over that paralysis if I have 0:17:35.560 --> 0:17:37.600 one hundred things to day, so I'm going to score 0:17:37.680 --> 0:17:41.560 Instagram instead, right right, yeah, exactly, which can be fun, yes, 0:17:41.760 --> 0:17:42.680 but maybe a little. 0:17:42.440 --> 0:17:43.840 Bit less productive than we might like. 0:17:44.080 --> 0:17:45.960 All right, Well, We're gonna take one more quick ad 0:17:45.960 --> 0:17:47.640 break and then I will be back with more from 0:17:47.720 --> 0:17:58.240 Amy Wilson. Well, I am back interviewing Amy Wilson, who 0:17:58.280 --> 0:18:00.240 is the author of the brand new book Happy to 0:18:00.280 --> 0:18:04.120 Help Adventures of a People Pleaser, various essays on her 0:18:04.160 --> 0:18:07.280 life as attempting to deal with all that there is 0:18:07.320 --> 0:18:08.280 to do way too. 0:18:08.240 --> 0:18:09.760 Much for many of us. 0:18:09.960 --> 0:18:11.680 So, Amy, we always. 0:18:11.400 --> 0:18:14.560 Like to hear about people's routines on this show. I 0:18:14.640 --> 0:18:16.639 understand that you have a morning routine. 0:18:16.720 --> 0:18:17.240 I do. 0:18:18.600 --> 0:18:19.440 Like most people. 0:18:19.480 --> 0:18:23.000 I think my calendar lives on my laptop slash phone. 0:18:23.560 --> 0:18:26.280 But I really am sort of a paper person. So 0:18:26.520 --> 0:18:28.479 I've found a middle path, which as I get up 0:18:28.480 --> 0:18:30.399 and make my coffee, then I sit down and I 0:18:30.400 --> 0:18:33.040 actually have a remarkable tablet that I use now instead 0:18:33.040 --> 0:18:36.159 of paper because it saves paper, but also because I 0:18:36.240 --> 0:18:39.520 find I really like it and it keeps everything in 0:18:39.560 --> 0:18:42.240 one place. It's all in there somewhere. I sit down 0:18:42.400 --> 0:18:46.000 with my calendar for the day and I just sketch out. 0:18:46.119 --> 0:18:49.199 I have a a PDF of the day's calendar that 0:18:49.240 --> 0:18:54.600 I pull up and I just copy it over longhand 0:18:54.720 --> 0:19:00.239 onto my day, and doing that helps me engage with 0:19:00.280 --> 0:19:02.000 what I have to do that day. And then I 0:19:02.040 --> 0:19:04.119 see the blocks that I might have left, and then 0:19:04.160 --> 0:19:06.119 I pull the things from my to do list that 0:19:06.200 --> 0:19:08.919 seem either the most urgent or the most call to 0:19:08.960 --> 0:19:11.160 me the most for some reason, and I fill those 0:19:11.160 --> 0:19:13.800 in and I plan my day. And I don't beat 0:19:13.800 --> 0:19:16.480 myself up too much. If by two o'clock I didn't 0:19:16.560 --> 0:19:18.399 get that researched and I was supposed to do, I 0:19:18.400 --> 0:19:25.479 can adjust. But engaging with my day very carefully before 0:19:25.520 --> 0:19:30.439 I begin it really helps me. Not I don't have 0:19:30.520 --> 0:19:31.760 the panicle like what am I supposed to be? What 0:19:31.760 --> 0:19:33.080