1 00:00:02,960 --> 00:00:06,600 Speaker 1: Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:08,680 --> 00:00:13,880 Speaker 2: Good Morning, This is Laura. Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast. 3 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:18,120 Speaker 2: Today's episode is going to be a longer one part 4 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:21,239 Speaker 2: of the series where I interview fascinating people about how 5 00:00:21,239 --> 00:00:23,680 Speaker 2: they take their days from great to awesome and any 6 00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:26,480 Speaker 2: advice they might have for the rest of us. So 7 00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:29,760 Speaker 2: today I am delighted to welcome Amy Wilson to the show. 8 00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:33,360 Speaker 2: Amy is the co host of the excellent podcast What 9 00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:36,760 Speaker 2: Fresh Hell. She is also an actor who's been on 10 00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:40,279 Speaker 2: many shows, including the TV show Norms. She's appeared on Broadway. 11 00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:42,960 Speaker 2: She is also the author of a brand new book 12 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:47,880 Speaker 2: of essays called Happy to Help Adventures of a People Pleaser. Amy, 13 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:48,800 Speaker 2: Welcome to the show. 14 00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:50,320 Speaker 3: Thank you, Laura, thank you for having me. 15 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:51,880 Speaker 1: I'm excited to have you on this. 16 00:00:52,080 --> 00:00:54,680 Speaker 2: So maybe you could introduce yourself to our listeners. Just 17 00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:56,560 Speaker 2: a little bit about your life, your work. 18 00:00:57,080 --> 00:00:59,840 Speaker 3: Okay, so yeah, I shouted out as a performer and 19 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:02,560 Speaker 3: a sketch comedian. As you said, always wrote my own 20 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:05,840 Speaker 3: things to perform. Always found that I got farther writing 21 00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:08,800 Speaker 3: my own material in terms of playing the roles I 22 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:11,600 Speaker 3: wanted to play, and once I became a parent, moved 23 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:15,520 Speaker 3: into creating content for parenting, did a show called mother 24 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:17,759 Speaker 3: Love that toured around the country for a while. Out 25 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 3: of that, got my book deal for a book called 26 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:22,039 Speaker 3: When Did I Get Like This? That came out in 27 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:24,920 Speaker 3: twenty ten, around the same time as your first book. 28 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:26,280 Speaker 3: I believe because that's how we first met. 29 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:28,200 Speaker 1: I've been in this business for a very long That's. 30 00:01:28,040 --> 00:01:30,560 Speaker 3: Right, we've met. I've been on the road for book promotion, 31 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:36,039 Speaker 3: and since then my life took many personal turns that 32 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:39,440 Speaker 3: are certainly laid out in the book and started What 33 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:43,759 Speaker 3: Fresh Hell in twenty sixteen and found my way back 34 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 3: to writing this second book after writing a novel that 35 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:50,040 Speaker 3: didn't work. A few different things that are all part 36 00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:52,120 Speaker 3: of the journey. This book is finally coming out. I'm 37 00:01:52,160 --> 00:01:52,760 Speaker 3: so excited. 38 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:56,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, and What Fresh Hell? I mean launching in twenty sixteen, 39 00:01:56,240 --> 00:02:00,240 Speaker 2: that was pretty early in the podcast day, correct it is. 40 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 3: Yeah. Margaret Abeles, my co host, was somebody that I 41 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:05,480 Speaker 3: was acquainted with. But really that was it again, like 42 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:09,160 Speaker 3: knew each other from the space and she said she 43 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:10,440 Speaker 3: took me out to lunch and said, so, I have 44 00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:13,400 Speaker 3: an idea, what if we did a podcast together? At 45 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:16,560 Speaker 3: the time I mean I knew her, I didn't know 46 00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:17,120 Speaker 3: how many. 47 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:18,920 Speaker 4: Kids she had, how old they were. 48 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:21,600 Speaker 3: People assumed that we were always best friends, and we 49 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:24,960 Speaker 3: have certainly become very close friends and work wives. But 50 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:27,760 Speaker 3: at the time we didn't know each other that well 51 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:29,359 Speaker 3: at all. We just kind of thought the other person 52 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:33,840 Speaker 3: was funny and started the podcast on a whim. Let's 53 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:36,440 Speaker 3: try this, let's do something fun together. I don't think 54 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:38,200 Speaker 3: we could ever have predicted we'd be doing it all 55 00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:40,640 Speaker 3: these years later. But it's still fun, so we're still doing. 56 00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:41,600 Speaker 1: It, still doing it. 57 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, what people who If you haven't listened to What 58 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:47,280 Speaker 2: Fresh Hell, you should everyone who's listening to this podcast. 59 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:49,200 Speaker 2: But one of the things that makes it so interesting 60 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:53,639 Speaker 2: is Amy and Margaret have slightly different personnel, lightly slightly. 61 00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:57,519 Speaker 2: Margaret's a bit more of a free form sort of person. 62 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:00,440 Speaker 2: I think Amy, you have described yourself as very things, 63 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:03,120 Speaker 2: as a type a kind of person as you've used 64 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:06,720 Speaker 2: words such as recovering perfectionist. Maybe you can talk about 65 00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:09,679 Speaker 2: how you came to write this book, Happy to Help 66 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:12,480 Speaker 2: Adventures of a People Pleaser, I mean, what it means 67 00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:15,120 Speaker 2: to discover that one is a people pleaser in life. 68 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:17,079 Speaker 3: Yeah, with me, I mean, I think I am and 69 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:20,120 Speaker 3: am not a people pleaser as I've looked into this more, 70 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:24,200 Speaker 3: but what I definitely am is an over deliverer. I've 71 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:26,320 Speaker 3: actually found a very old episode of the podcast where 72 00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:28,280 Speaker 3: I said I was a sticker outer, and I'm like, well, 73 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:28,720 Speaker 3: that's it. 74 00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:30,240 Speaker 4: I wish I thought of that for the cover a 75 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:30,880 Speaker 4: sticker outer. 76 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 3: I stick with things. I see things through to a 77 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:40,320 Speaker 3: complete fault, and sometimes that is the right thing to do. 78 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:44,640 Speaker 3: It's certainly a good trait to have sometimes. But I 79 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:50,960 Speaker 3: have definitely stuck with relationships, jobs, you know, ideas that 80 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:53,080 Speaker 3: kept me stuck that I just thought, well, it was 81 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 3: me and I just have to work harder, and I'm 82 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 3: going to make this unfixable situation fixed. And I think 83 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:00,960 Speaker 3: that's where I got stuck. And I came up with 84 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:04,200 Speaker 3: the idea because I was actually talking to Ziby Owens 85 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:06,720 Speaker 3: about writing a book for Ziby Books, who was publishing 86 00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:09,280 Speaker 3: this book, and she suggested that I sort of engage 87 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:13,080 Speaker 3: with the idea of slack in our lives and when 88 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:14,840 Speaker 3: we have to pick up the slack, when we have 89 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:17,480 Speaker 3: to give ourselves slack, other people slack. So I was 90 00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:20,080 Speaker 3: sort of whiteboarding that out and the column that had 91 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:22,360 Speaker 3: nothing in it was times that I had to pick 92 00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:25,039 Speaker 3: up the slack that I hadn't worked hard enough. And 93 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:27,920 Speaker 3: the longer that column stayed empty, the more I realized, Oh, 94 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:30,280 Speaker 3: that's what's the book is about that. I don't know. 95 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:33,039 Speaker 3: I don't know how to not give it my all, 96 00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:35,480 Speaker 3: even when it was a terrible idea to do that. 97 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:39,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, and so I know a lot of us are 98 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:43,440 Speaker 2: juggling many things in life as you are, you know, work, family, home, etc. 99 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:46,159 Speaker 2: I mean, one of the things you've written about is 100 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:49,320 Speaker 2: that a lot of the sort of traditional productivity advice 101 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:53,479 Speaker 2: like say no right, just say no more often isn't 102 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:57,679 Speaker 2: particularly helpful maybe for people who are. 103 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:00,520 Speaker 1: Committed to seeing things through and all that. 104 00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:02,640 Speaker 2: Maybe you could talk a little bit about why is 105 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:04,279 Speaker 2: this productivity advice unhelpful? 106 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:07,400 Speaker 3: Well, I think it's from the point of view of 107 00:05:07,720 --> 00:05:10,599 Speaker 3: people who aren't the people ask in the first place. 108 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 3: You know, Like people were like, just say no, there's 109 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:14,800 Speaker 3: a complete sentence, and like nobody ever asked me to 110 00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:17,160 Speaker 3: do stuff. Well, right, they don't, but they ask me 111 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:19,840 Speaker 3: to do stuff because I'm the person who over delivers 112 00:05:20,080 --> 00:05:22,520 Speaker 3: and who doesn't say no, and who shows up every time, 113 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:26,400 Speaker 3: and so for people like me to rewrite the narrative. 114 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:29,240 Speaker 3: You know, I've had success over the last couple of 115 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:31,479 Speaker 3: years while I was writing this book living this out 116 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:34,480 Speaker 3: in my life. Why do I always say yes, are 117 00:05:34,520 --> 00:05:37,040 Speaker 3: there places where I can hand things over? And then 118 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:39,640 Speaker 3: I'd try to and that wouldn't work either, and saying 119 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:43,000 Speaker 3: no didn't work either. Or I'd say no and nobody 120 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:45,760 Speaker 3: would say, oh, okay. In that case, I'll start doing 121 00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 3: it all, you know, I'll host Thanksgiving or something like that. 122 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:52,800 Speaker 3: Doesn't always happen. It's not as simple as you stop 123 00:05:52,839 --> 00:05:56,320 Speaker 3: worrying about things and they magically resolve. You stop doing things, 124 00:05:56,320 --> 00:06:00,600 Speaker 3: and somebody else picks up the slack. That doesn't happen often. 125 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 3: And so what you really have to get comfortable with 126 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:06,960 Speaker 3: is the thing not happening at all, or people being 127 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:10,839 Speaker 3: disappointed in you, or things remaining uncertain, which I think 128 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:14,040 Speaker 3: getting comfortable with uncertainty is probably the key to everything. 129 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:16,280 Speaker 3: But I had to learn how to do that in 130 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:20,360 Speaker 3: order to be okay with stopping sooner. 131 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:24,040 Speaker 2: Well, let's talk about that Thanksgiving one, because that strikes 132 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:27,479 Speaker 2: me as one that yes, the result is that you 133 00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:30,320 Speaker 2: just don't have a big group Thanksgiving. But maybe that 134 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:31,640 Speaker 2: isn't the end of the world. 135 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:33,360 Speaker 3: Right, Maybe that isn't the end of the world. I mean, 136 00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:35,159 Speaker 3: there's some things that you really can't say no to. 137 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:38,080 Speaker 3: Right If your aunt breaks your hip and you're the 138 00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:39,960 Speaker 3: only one who lives in the same town, you're probably 139 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:41,920 Speaker 3: going to be taking her to a few doctor's appointments, 140 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:45,400 Speaker 3: and you can say no and put yourself first and 141 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:47,360 Speaker 3: hold a boundary. But then you're kind of a jerk, right, 142 00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:50,479 Speaker 3: And so then what are the other things that you 143 00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:52,680 Speaker 3: can put down? Because that kind of feels like nothing. 144 00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:56,000 Speaker 3: Maybe they're hosting Thanksgiving is something you can put down. 145 00:06:56,480 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 3: But when I think you're somebody who's traditionally taken on 146 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:02,400 Speaker 3: a lot, been the capable one that people can count on, 147 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:05,839 Speaker 3: you look around at your too long list which of 148 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:08,559 Speaker 3: these things? I can you think? Which of these things 149 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:10,480 Speaker 3: am I going to put down? And the answer feels 150 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 3: like nothing? 151 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:14,200 Speaker 2: Well, it's part of that then that other people sort 152 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:16,200 Speaker 2: of feed into this relationship. Like if you have a 153 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:19,560 Speaker 2: relationship with a capable one and your family you or 154 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:21,559 Speaker 2: your spouse or your best friend or whatever it happens 155 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:26,160 Speaker 2: to be, does that tend to create some sort of 156 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:29,240 Speaker 2: less capability on the part of the other people. 157 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:31,040 Speaker 1: Is that how that work? 158 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 3: I think so, And I don't think it's intentional, and 159 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:38,640 Speaker 3: I don't think it's malicious. It's just everybody around you 160 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:42,440 Speaker 3: is pretty disincentivized to do it. You've always done it before, 161 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:44,400 Speaker 3: and sometimes you've probably said you're not going to do 162 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:46,800 Speaker 3: it this year, and then you did it anyway, and 163 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:49,760 Speaker 3: so why wouldn't they keep going the way things were? 164 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:53,840 Speaker 3: It works pretty well for everybody else. So this redistributions. 165 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:56,840 Speaker 3: It's hard work and it can happen, but you have 166 00:07:56,920 --> 00:07:59,480 Speaker 3: to ask and then ask again, and then say and 167 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:01,960 Speaker 3: then say again, and that the redistribution is a lot 168 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:05,280 Speaker 3: of work too, which is worth it. But I just 169 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:09,600 Speaker 3: think to the overwhelmed woman in particular, the world often 170 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:13,760 Speaker 3: says that it's your mindset. You know, you just need 171 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 3: to relax. Things will get done, says the person who 172 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:17,960 Speaker 3: knows that you will do the things right. So it's 173 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:21,480 Speaker 3: just get a sense of humor about it. Stop liking 174 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:23,960 Speaker 3: to make things harder than they need to be. Are 175 00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:24,920 Speaker 3: you doing that sometimes? 176 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:25,360 Speaker 4: Probably? 177 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:27,520 Speaker 3: Are you doing that all the time? No? But I 178 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 3: feel like that's too often the only advice you get instead. 179 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:34,320 Speaker 2: Of help yeah, absolutely, But we're going to take a 180 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:36,080 Speaker 2: quick ad break and then I will be back with 181 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:37,200 Speaker 2: more from Amy Wilson. 182 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:45,120 Speaker 1: Well, I am back. 183 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 2: This is one of the longer episodes of Before Breakfast. 184 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:50,320 Speaker 2: I am interviewing Amy Wilson, who is the author of 185 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:53,160 Speaker 2: the brand new book of essays, Happy to Help Adventures 186 00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:55,439 Speaker 2: of a People Pleaser. So, Amy, I mean, there's a 187 00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 2: lot of different short essays in this book, I mean 188 00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:00,400 Speaker 2: kind of quick read for people. What would you say 189 00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:04,520 Speaker 2: was your favorite one of this to write? 190 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:10,079 Speaker 3: My favorite one was My eighth grade Diary, an exploration 191 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:11,800 Speaker 3: of my eighth grade diary, which is the only year 192 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:14,480 Speaker 3: I kept a diary in my whole life. And my 193 00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:18,280 Speaker 3: friend Julie recently said that the eighth grade you is 194 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:22,679 Speaker 3: the most technicolor version of you of anyone. That it 195 00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:25,280 Speaker 3: is you, right, and when you look back, why it's 196 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:29,720 Speaker 3: so cringey is because like there you were in highly 197 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:33,200 Speaker 3: you know, crystallized form, waiting to burst forth. And that 198 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:34,839 Speaker 3: was certainly true for me. And when I went back 199 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:37,720 Speaker 3: and looked at my eighth grade diary, I was constantly 200 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:41,360 Speaker 3: giving myself assignments. And the last thing I wrote in 201 00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:44,320 Speaker 3: my eighth grade diary was that I had to do 202 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:47,040 Speaker 3: everything I could to make the people I really love happy. 203 00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:50,480 Speaker 3: And I found that after I started writing this book, 204 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:52,800 Speaker 3: and then I went back and found that diary. I'm like, 205 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:54,880 Speaker 3: holy cow, I was telling myself that when I was 206 00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:58,520 Speaker 3: thirteen that I had to do everything I could. And 207 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:01,720 Speaker 3: I think that that's that sort of hallmark sentiment is 208 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:04,080 Speaker 3: something a lot of us. I think it's kind of 209 00:10:04,160 --> 00:10:07,720 Speaker 3: drilled into all young women. But for some reason I 210 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:09,480 Speaker 3: ran with it. For some reason, I was like, that's right, 211 00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:10,480 Speaker 3: and I'm gonna do it too. 212 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:14,160 Speaker 2: And You've talked a little bit about this maybe eldest daughter, 213 00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:16,400 Speaker 2: so yeah, yeah, right, what is that? 214 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:19,480 Speaker 3: So I am everybody knows about this eldest daughter syndrome. 215 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:22,760 Speaker 3: Everybody's talking about that. You're sort of a type a personality, 216 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:25,280 Speaker 3: but it's visited upon you by your circumstances, which I 217 00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:27,680 Speaker 3: firmly agree with. In my case, I'm the oldest of 218 00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:31,640 Speaker 3: six kids, my mother was the oldest of eight kids. 219 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:35,720 Speaker 3: I'm the oldest of twenty five first cousins, and so 220 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:39,280 Speaker 3: I think that, yeah, I'm sort of like a. 221 00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:41,080 Speaker 4: Super double triple eldest sister. 222 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:43,360 Speaker 3: I mean, I really, I was really soaking in it 223 00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:46,560 Speaker 3: during my formative years. And see, I grew up since 224 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:48,680 Speaker 3: I was in second grade. I was babysitting for free 225 00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:51,680 Speaker 3: and changing diapers, and I liked it, and I was 226 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:54,480 Speaker 3: good at it. I wasn't a grade schooler who was 227 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 3: seething with resentment. I got a lot of identity from it, 228 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:03,040 Speaker 3: from being a happy helper, And I think that couldn't 229 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:06,280 Speaker 3: help but shape me, not even necessarily for the worst, 230 00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:08,320 Speaker 3: but it did shape me that I love to help 231 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:10,760 Speaker 3: other people and that's what I'm good at, and that's 232 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:12,400 Speaker 3: where I draw my self esteem. 233 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:15,560 Speaker 2: So one of the things we like to do on 234 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:18,600 Speaker 2: this show is share practical tips, right, and so obviously 235 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:21,920 Speaker 2: there's many psychological things to unpack with what makes someone 236 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:28,320 Speaker 2: a people pleaser or maybe has difficulties broadly with setting boundaries. 237 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:31,880 Speaker 2: But let's say someone is, you know, resolving in the 238 00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:36,080 Speaker 2: new year to set better boundaries. Are there some practical 239 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:39,600 Speaker 2: small things that you would suggest people start doing. 240 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:42,280 Speaker 3: I think that for me, I had to learn that 241 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:45,520 Speaker 3: saying no was the first step the whole Like saying 242 00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:47,679 Speaker 3: no is a complete sentence thing. Never I just sort 243 00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:50,800 Speaker 3: of thought, like I know that, but when I say no, 244 00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:54,679 Speaker 3: then nothing changes that Saying no What you really have 245 00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:57,920 Speaker 3: to prepare yourself for is the silence that will follow, 246 00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 3: usually uncomfortable silence. Again not malicious, but when you say 247 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:04,720 Speaker 3: I'm going to need to step down from this committee. 248 00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:06,920 Speaker 3: Some things have come up and I'm going to need 249 00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:10,079 Speaker 3: to step down that there's this you know, there'll be 250 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:14,120 Speaker 3: a long, confused silence that will follow. And that's where 251 00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:18,360 Speaker 3: I had to really learn to not say, I mean, 252 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:20,160 Speaker 3: I guess I could stick around till we find somebody else, 253 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:21,600 Speaker 3: or I mean I guess I could be the vice 254 00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:22,400 Speaker 3: person on the committee. 255 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:25,079 Speaker 1: Like that, you you are. 256 00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:26,800 Speaker 4: Everybody's a little uncomfortable. 257 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:29,240 Speaker 3: Everybody else is like, wait, what, she's not going to 258 00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 3: do the committee. I don't want to do the committee either. 259 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:32,960 Speaker 3: Who's going to do the committee? While everybody's sort of 260 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:36,199 Speaker 3: cogitating on that, I think I would take it all back, 261 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:38,880 Speaker 3: or take some of it back, rush to fill the silence, 262 00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:41,800 Speaker 3: and to me, like no is the easy part. The 263 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:47,440 Speaker 3: silence and sitting on my hands while nothing happens at first, 264 00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:49,680 Speaker 3: that's the hard part. But if you can sit through 265 00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:55,800 Speaker 3: that and that discomfort and that silence, like things are changing, 266 00:12:55,920 --> 00:13:00,680 Speaker 3: things are changing slowly, and that uncertainty is something that 267 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:03,720 Speaker 3: I've spent a whole life trying to rescue other people 268 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:09,280 Speaker 3: from myself first and foremost, I suppose, And once I 269 00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:11,240 Speaker 3: learned to live with that, I don't know what's going 270 00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:14,120 Speaker 3: to happen next, but I can't do it, things started 271 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:15,040 Speaker 3: to really shift from me. 272 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:19,000 Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, uncertainty is challenging for many people. I mean, 273 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:21,600 Speaker 2: it's also the nature of life, right, we just don't 274 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:23,719 Speaker 2: know what's going to happen. But I mean, certainly there 275 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:28,160 Speaker 2: is the advice who don't negotiate against yourself. Yes, yes, 276 00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:31,319 Speaker 2: that it is in that silence where somebody is deciding 277 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:34,960 Speaker 2: what their counteroffer is going to be, but you don't 278 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:36,760 Speaker 2: need to make the counteroffer for them. 279 00:13:36,920 --> 00:13:39,760 Speaker 3: Very very well, said I wish I had heard that 280 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:40,840 Speaker 3: twenty years ago. 281 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:43,840 Speaker 1: Exactly exactly. 282 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:47,520 Speaker 2: So, I mean you've written people listening to this movie 283 00:13:47,559 --> 00:13:50,040 Speaker 2: Beyonest Song, it sounds like Amy's are perfectionist. But you've 284 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:53,040 Speaker 2: said you don't really like that word perfectionist. 285 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:53,840 Speaker 1: Let's talk about that. 286 00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:56,560 Speaker 3: So in the book, I go through all the different 287 00:13:56,920 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 3: forms of advice that I have received that women tend 288 00:13:59,800 --> 00:14:02,280 Speaker 3: to see when we say that we're overwhelmed, that we 289 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:05,480 Speaker 3: can't do it all, that we're we really need some 290 00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:07,600 Speaker 3: help in the situation written. What we tend to get 291 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:11,240 Speaker 3: back is advice to fix ourselves, and I think a 292 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:16,679 Speaker 3: perfectionist is certainly one of those things. Stop being a perfectionist. 293 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:19,600 Speaker 3: You have too much to do because you're trying to 294 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:22,800 Speaker 3: make everything perfect. And I think I took that on 295 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:24,440 Speaker 3: for a long time, like, oh, that's right, I'm such 296 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:26,440 Speaker 3: a perfectionist, And then I really stopped and thought about it, 297 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:29,120 Speaker 3: and I thought, you know, that doesn't really resonate for me. 298 00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:34,640 Speaker 3: A perfectionist, to me is somebody who is so caught. 299 00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:39,560 Speaker 3: And also, perfectionism is something that is primarily applied to women. 300 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:43,119 Speaker 3: It's really hard to find men out there self identifying 301 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:45,240 Speaker 3: as perfectionists and talking about how they get in their 302 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:49,400 Speaker 3: own way. But I know I accomplish a lot, I 303 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:52,040 Speaker 3: get through a lot. It's just I have a lot 304 00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:55,640 Speaker 3: on my plate, and I do know how to not 305 00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:58,320 Speaker 3: sweat the small stuff. I don't care what my kitchen 306 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:00,320 Speaker 3: sink looks like. I don't care what my my hair 307 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:01,960 Speaker 3: looks like when I go to yoga, Like, I'm not 308 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:06,200 Speaker 3: that kind of person who is so overcome with having 309 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:08,240 Speaker 3: everything to be perfect that I can't get enough done. 310 00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:10,880 Speaker 3: That's definitely not my problem. My problem is I simply 311 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:13,040 Speaker 3: have too much to do because I've taken too much on, 312 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:16,200 Speaker 3: which I think is a different problem. And when you're 313 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:18,720 Speaker 3: fed back, we'll stop being a perfectionist or get a 314 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:21,240 Speaker 3: sense of humor or these things that are about go 315 00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:24,480 Speaker 3: change this failing in yourself and then the fact that 316 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:26,600 Speaker 3: you have too much to do will magically resolve. Well, 317 00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:30,320 Speaker 3: it doesn't work, and I love an assignment. So I 318 00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:33,080 Speaker 3: spend a lot of time trying each of these methods, 319 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:35,400 Speaker 3: right to lean in to care less, I mean, I 320 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:39,920 Speaker 3: did them all, and none of them resolved the situation. 321 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:43,280 Speaker 3: It's the situation that sometimes has to be really addressed. 322 00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:45,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, although when we do have too much to do, 323 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:47,360 Speaker 2: I mean, we still have to deal with what is 324 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:50,160 Speaker 2: right in front of us. Yes, So I'm curious what 325 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:54,040 Speaker 2: does your planning process look like? I mean, I know, 326 00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:58,240 Speaker 2: for me, dealing with the entirely huge pile of stuff 327 00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:02,240 Speaker 2: professionally and personally often at least partly a matter of 328 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:05,720 Speaker 2: figuring out what exactly is in the pile and then 329 00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:09,880 Speaker 2: roughly when the things will be addressed in the pile. 330 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:12,960 Speaker 3: That's the personal Kamband method that I learned about when 331 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:16,320 Speaker 3: I was researching this book. Jim Benson sort of took 332 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:20,080 Speaker 3: the Kamband method and adjusted it for personal use. And 333 00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:22,320 Speaker 3: that's his sort of basic thing, that you have to 334 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:25,520 Speaker 3: engage with the entirety of all the things you could 335 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:28,200 Speaker 3: be doing. And he says write them on post it notes, 336 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:30,240 Speaker 3: which I do find really helps me get out the 337 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:33,520 Speaker 3: post it notes. Write each thing, the dry cleaners, and 338 00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:36,440 Speaker 3: the draft of the chapter four, they each get a 339 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:38,520 Speaker 3: post it note, and you engage with them all. I 340 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:40,440 Speaker 3: use different color post it notes for different parts of 341 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:43,880 Speaker 3: my life. Then you pick three and you put them 342 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:46,240 Speaker 3: in your doing column, and you leave the other ones alone, 343 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:48,640 Speaker 3: and you do the three. And then when as you 344 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:50,760 Speaker 3: do each one of the three, you move it to 345 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:53,560 Speaker 3: the done column. And you can't move anything into the 346 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:55,840 Speaker 3: doing column until you've moved one of your three things 347 00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:58,720 Speaker 3: to done. Now, my doing column always has like seven 348 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:01,640 Speaker 3: things in it, not three. But when I'm feeling like 349 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:03,120 Speaker 3: today is one of those days that I feel like 350 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:06,320 Speaker 3: I have seven hundred things to do and I need 351 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:08,240 Speaker 3: to have first engaged with. Yep, here's everything I have 352 00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:11,440 Speaker 3: to do. I won't do it all. That's okay, Let's 353 00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:13,560 Speaker 3: pick the three things that are jumping out at me 354 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:15,840 Speaker 3: right now as either the most urgent or just the 355 00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:21,080 Speaker 3: most I feel like doing that right now, right, and 356 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:24,840 Speaker 3: do those three and don't engage with the entirety of 357 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:27,200 Speaker 3: my list while I'm doing those things, just engage with 358 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:31,240 Speaker 3: the next three things. It really helps me get more 359 00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:33,480 Speaker 3: done and feel less panicked. 360 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:35,520 Speaker 2: Less panic to get over that paralysis if I have 361 00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 2: one hundred things to day, so I'm going to score 362 00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:41,560 Speaker 2: Instagram instead, right right, yeah, exactly, which can be fun, yes, 363 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:42,680 Speaker 2: but maybe a little. 364 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 1: Bit less productive than we might like. 365 00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:45,960 Speaker 2: All right, Well, We're gonna take one more quick ad 366 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:47,640 Speaker 2: break and then I will be back with more from 367 00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:58,240 Speaker 2: Amy Wilson. Well, I am back interviewing Amy Wilson, who 368 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:00,240 Speaker 2: is the author of the brand new book Happy to 369 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:04,120 Speaker 2: Help Adventures of a People Pleaser, various essays on her 370 00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:07,280 Speaker 2: life as attempting to deal with all that there is 371 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:08,280 Speaker 2: to do way too. 372 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:09,760 Speaker 1: Much for many of us. 373 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:11,680 Speaker 4: So, Amy, we always. 374 00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:14,560 Speaker 2: Like to hear about people's routines on this show. I 375 00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:16,639 Speaker 2: understand that you have a morning routine. 376 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:17,240 Speaker 1: I do. 377 00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:19,440 Speaker 4: Like most people. 378 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:23,000 Speaker 3: I think my calendar lives on my laptop slash phone. 379 00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:26,280 Speaker 3: But I really am sort of a paper person. So 380 00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:28,479 Speaker 3: I've found a middle path, which as I get up 381 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:30,399 Speaker 3: and make my coffee, then I sit down and I 382 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:33,040 Speaker 3: actually have a remarkable tablet that I use now instead 383 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:36,159 Speaker 3: of paper because it saves paper, but also because I 384 00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:39,520 Speaker 3: find I really like it and it keeps everything in 385 00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:42,240 Speaker 3: one place. It's all in there somewhere. I sit down 386 00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:46,000 Speaker 3: with my calendar for the day and I just sketch out. 387 00:18:46,119 --> 00:18:49,199 Speaker 3: I have a a PDF of the day's calendar that 388 00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 3: I pull up and I just copy it over longhand 389 00:18:54,720 --> 00:19:00,239 Speaker 3: onto my day, and doing that helps me engage with 390 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:02,000 Speaker 3: what I have to do that day. And then I 391 00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:04,119 Speaker 3: see the blocks that I might have left, and then 392 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:06,119 Speaker 3: I pull the things from my to do list that 393 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:08,919 Speaker 3: seem either the most urgent or the most call to 394 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:11,160 Speaker 3: me the most for some reason, and I fill those 395 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:13,800 Speaker 3: in and I plan my day. And I don't beat 396 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:16,480 Speaker 3: myself up too much. If by two o'clock I didn't 397 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:18,399 Speaker 3: get that researched and I was supposed to do, I 398 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:25,479 Speaker 3: can adjust. But engaging with my day very carefully before 399 00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:30,439 Speaker 3: I begin it really helps me. Not I don't have 400 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:31,760 Speaker 3: the panicle like what am I supposed to be? What 401 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:33,080 Speaker 3: am I supposed to be? Doing. I know because I 402 00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:34,680 Speaker 3: kind of looked at it at the beginning of the 403 00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:37,960 Speaker 3: day and I make enough room for what I need 404 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:40,800 Speaker 3: to do and leave the rest behind. That's really saved me. 405 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:44,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, limited to do lists they are always always good. 406 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:46,920 Speaker 2: But what does the day actually look like then? 407 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:47,240 Speaker 3: For you? 408 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:50,000 Speaker 2: I mean, are you generally working like nine to five 409 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:51,440 Speaker 2: or is it more all over the map. 410 00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:54,760 Speaker 3: It's more all over the map because I'm either recording 411 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:59,119 Speaker 3: podcast episodes or researching podcast episodes, or you know, hopping 412 00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:02,240 Speaker 3: on ten others zooms. But I try to block things 413 00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:04,800 Speaker 3: out and if I have a chance to go to 414 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:09,199 Speaker 3: the library. I live right near Columbia University, so I 415 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:12,000 Speaker 3: belong to Columbia's libraries, and there's a special library that 416 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:15,160 Speaker 3: I go to when I want to write or really concentrate. 417 00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:19,040 Speaker 3: And having that separate space where I can unplug and 418 00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:21,880 Speaker 3: not look at my kitchen or whatever is really where 419 00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:24,280 Speaker 3: I get my concentrated work done. When I'm in a 420 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:27,840 Speaker 3: writing season, I get up early and go do that first. 421 00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:31,359 Speaker 3: I find that if I can write from seven to 422 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:33,239 Speaker 3: nine thirty or ten and get it done, and then 423 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:35,760 Speaker 3: I can go on and feel great about my day. 424 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:37,520 Speaker 3: Right now, I'm not writing, So I'm trying to get 425 00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:40,639 Speaker 3: in some exercise or yoga first because I feel like 426 00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:42,560 Speaker 3: I have too much. I wake up panicked, so I 427 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:45,280 Speaker 3: need to relax and do some exercise and then get 428 00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:45,800 Speaker 3: to my day. 429 00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:47,120 Speaker 4: But I find that. 430 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:50,480 Speaker 3: Early early part of the day is it's where I 431 00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:52,800 Speaker 3: do my best work, no matter what it is, So 432 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:55,320 Speaker 3: I don't want to necessarily waste it on peloton if 433 00:20:55,359 --> 00:20:56,440 Speaker 3: I have a writing deadline. 434 00:20:57,280 --> 00:20:59,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think a lot of us have found that 435 00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:02,760 Speaker 2: our most product of time does tend to be that morning. 436 00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:04,560 Speaker 1: And maybe for some people it's like four am. Maybe 437 00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:07,280 Speaker 1: for a lot of us it's more like eight am. Yeah, 438 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:10,000 Speaker 1: but you know, making sure that it is. 439 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:14,320 Speaker 2: For what we want to give it to, right, right, 440 00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:17,080 Speaker 2: and not giving that time away to something that is 441 00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:20,159 Speaker 2: requires less folks, that's right, just sets the tone for 442 00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:20,640 Speaker 2: the whole day. 443 00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:23,160 Speaker 3: If I really have something, oh I don't know, taxes 444 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:26,320 Speaker 3: or something, you know, a presentation that I'm really dreading, 445 00:21:26,359 --> 00:21:30,920 Speaker 3: I often use cave Day, which is group accountability. Sign 446 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:33,680 Speaker 3: up for it and you join. They have all kinds 447 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:36,560 Speaker 3: of caves that are scheduled, say once starts at twelve thirty. 448 00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:39,320 Speaker 3: You log on. It's a group zoom. You can unmute 449 00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:41,280 Speaker 3: yourself or not. You say, hey, I'm Amy and today 450 00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:43,920 Speaker 3: I'm working at my taxes, and then that you start 451 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:47,280 Speaker 3: and it's just group accountability. And you sort of promised 452 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:49,679 Speaker 3: these strangers on the internet that you weren't going to 453 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:51,679 Speaker 3: look up from your taxes for fifty minutes. You're not 454 00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:52,960 Speaker 3: going to look at your phone. You're not going to 455 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:57,240 Speaker 3: walk away. And I love it. And when I and again, 456 00:21:57,240 --> 00:21:59,160 Speaker 3: I'll go through seasons of using it and not using 457 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:03,280 Speaker 3: it when my list gets so long again, it's like, okay, 458 00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:05,439 Speaker 3: one thing at a time, and then commit to that 459 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:07,920 Speaker 3: one thing at a time. And sometimes strangers in the 460 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:09,000 Speaker 3: internet are very helpful. 461 00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:09,959 Speaker 1: I love that. 462 00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:12,440 Speaker 4: What was it called again, cave day, caveday dot org day. 463 00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:13,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, all. 464 00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:16,879 Speaker 2: Right, so anyone's looking for some external accountability and I 465 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:18,040 Speaker 2: don't know, your friends are busy. 466 00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:19,439 Speaker 4: Yeah, this is something you can do. 467 00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:20,879 Speaker 3: It helps, It really helps. 468 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:23,400 Speaker 1: So I'm very curious. 469 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:26,760 Speaker 2: You know, we always like to talk about ways we 470 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:28,960 Speaker 2: have made our days better. It sounds like maybe cave 471 00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:30,560 Speaker 2: day is helping you with that too. But is there 472 00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:33,359 Speaker 2: anything you've done recently to take a day from great 473 00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:34,040 Speaker 2: to awesome? 474 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:34,560 Speaker 4: Yes? 475 00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:37,760 Speaker 3: There is I live in New York City, where you 476 00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:40,320 Speaker 3: can do you know, three hundred things on a Friday night, 477 00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:41,800 Speaker 3: and so you do none of them, so you sit 478 00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:44,800 Speaker 3: home and watch Netflix. And I've sort of resolved recently 479 00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:46,560 Speaker 3: that if I am going to keep living here, I 480 00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:49,600 Speaker 3: need to take advantage of things or else live somewhere 481 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:53,679 Speaker 3: that's a little easier to live. So my spouse and 482 00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:58,520 Speaker 3: I went and heard zydeco music near Time Square. Zydeco 483 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:02,720 Speaker 3: is like Cajun New Orleans sort of music, with lots 484 00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:06,680 Speaker 3: of accordion and washboard and stuff. I can't tell you why. 485 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:09,160 Speaker 3: It is the happiest music there is. And I love 486 00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:11,320 Speaker 3: this music. It puts me in such a good mood. 487 00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:14,399 Speaker 3: So we went with another couple and had burgers and 488 00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:16,720 Speaker 3: beers and learned how to zoda go dance, and we 489 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:18,800 Speaker 3: did zada go dancing, and it just was one of 490 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:20,919 Speaker 3: those things where you realize, like, wow, there are people 491 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:23,840 Speaker 3: out there who are really good zoa go dancers in 492 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:27,800 Speaker 3: this band on stage were absolutely incredible Louisiana's and half 493 00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:29,520 Speaker 3: of them had ever been in New York City before, 494 00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:31,679 Speaker 3: and it just just like this little corner of the 495 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:36,080 Speaker 3: world that people are that you barely even knew about that. 496 00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:40,639 Speaker 3: People are huge experts and huge artists, and it just 497 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:45,840 Speaker 3: made me so happy to try something new and hear 498 00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:50,080 Speaker 3: this happy music and not have to get anything out 499 00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:51,600 Speaker 3: of it, you know what I mean. I learned how 500 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:54,280 Speaker 3: to Cajun dance. I'm terrible, whatever, it doesn't matter. And 501 00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:56,320 Speaker 3: to be in community like that, it was so much 502 00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:58,679 Speaker 3: better than staying home and watching Netflix. I was so 503 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:00,680 Speaker 3: glad I did it. Yeah, So how do you find 504 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:03,040 Speaker 3: things like that? I mean this is always the problem. 505 00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:04,880 Speaker 3: I mean, you know, there's a million things going on. 506 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:06,760 Speaker 3: You know some of them, you don't know some of them. Yeah, 507 00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:09,359 Speaker 3: where do you look for adventures? I this one I 508 00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:12,160 Speaker 3: knew because there are just those like really cool women 509 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:14,639 Speaker 3: out there that start these newsletters, right, and so this 510 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:16,520 Speaker 3: one is a real estate agent I know, and she 511 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:19,520 Speaker 3: sends out this newsletter every couple of months, like, here 512 00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:21,240 Speaker 3: are these these fun things that are going on in 513 00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:23,359 Speaker 3: New York that you should know about, and she listed it. 514 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:26,240 Speaker 3: There's there's a Zodago thing and they have dance lessons. 515 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:29,639 Speaker 3: And I saw it probably two months ago, and I 516 00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:31,320 Speaker 3: put it on my calendar and not actually think good, 517 00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:33,600 Speaker 3: I'd actually go and then that night I actually went. 518 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:38,080 Speaker 3: And I feel like I am not the great connector 519 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:40,919 Speaker 3: and the great like extravert that brings people together, but 520 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:44,159 Speaker 3: I've learned to attach, you know, hitch my wagon to 521 00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:46,800 Speaker 3: those stars because they know where the fun is and 522 00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:48,520 Speaker 3: then you just show up and you're part of the group. 523 00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:51,560 Speaker 1: That's true. Well, always better to have an adventure than 524 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:53,520 Speaker 1: a not advice. 525 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:56,560 Speaker 2: That's kind of my full, lush life. So Amy, what 526 00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:58,280 Speaker 2: are you looking forward to these days? 527 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:00,880 Speaker 3: You know, I'm honestly really looking forward to this book 528 00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:04,040 Speaker 3: being out in the world because I really first through 529 00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:06,119 Speaker 3: the podcast and then through this book. I really like 530 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:09,920 Speaker 3: connecting with women and getting them to kind of think 531 00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:12,200 Speaker 3: about their lives, but also getting them to feel better 532 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:14,720 Speaker 3: about themselves, because I just think we get so much. 533 00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:18,080 Speaker 3: We're just told to fix ourselves every time we pick 534 00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:21,399 Speaker 3: up our phones, and I just think some of us, 535 00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:23,080 Speaker 3: all of us, take some of it on, some of 536 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:25,520 Speaker 3: us take all of it on. And I just want 537 00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:27,600 Speaker 3: to get to like one reader at a time and say, 538 00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:29,200 Speaker 3: you know what, there's nothing wrong with you. Your life 539 00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:31,800 Speaker 3: is just hard right now, so take a deep breath 540 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:34,040 Speaker 3: and then start engaging with how you're going to fix it. 541 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:37,159 Speaker 3: And I feel like that message is really going to 542 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:39,240 Speaker 3: help the person who really needs to hear it, and 543 00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:40,880 Speaker 3: so I'm just really looking forward to that. 544 00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:42,399 Speaker 1: Excellent. Excellent. 545 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:44,040 Speaker 2: Well, you guys can all pick up a copy of 546 00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:46,200 Speaker 2: Happy to Help And where else can people find you? 547 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:50,359 Speaker 3: What Fresh hel podcast is at whatfreshellpodcast dot com or 548 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:53,399 Speaker 3: wherever you listen to this podcast, and you can find 549 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:55,920 Speaker 3: me my events and things like that at Amy Wilson 550 00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:57,240 Speaker 3: dot com. 551 00:25:57,320 --> 00:25:59,960 Speaker 2: Excellent, Well, Amy, thank you so much for joining us. 552 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:03,240 Speaker 2: Thanks to everyone for listening to one of these longer episodes. 553 00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:06,160 Speaker 2: If you have feedback for me about this or any 554 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:08,240 Speaker 2: other episode, you are welcome to reach out to me 555 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:11,160 Speaker 2: at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. 556 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:12,320 Speaker 1: In the meantime, this. 557 00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:15,359 Speaker 2: Is Laura, Thanks for listening, and here's to making the 558 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:24,639 Speaker 2: most of our time. Thanks for listening to Before Breakfast. 559 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:28,960 Speaker 2: If you've got questions, ideas, or feedback, you can reach 560 00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:38,680 Speaker 2: me at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. Before Breakfast 561 00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:43,000 Speaker 2: is a production of iHeartMedia. For more podcasts from iHeartMedia, 562 00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:47,080 Speaker 2: please visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 563 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:48,399 Speaker 2: listen to your favorite shows.