WEBVTT - How Forgiveness Works 0:00:01.480 --> 0:00:04.280 Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a production of I 0:00:04.360 --> 0:00:13.320 Heart Radio. Hey you, welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, 0:00:13.360 --> 0:00:15.680 and there's Chuck and Jerry's here too, and this is 0:00:15.760 --> 0:00:21.840 stuff you should know. Some philosophical waxing is going to 0:00:21.880 --> 0:00:26.560 happen in this one. I think it's inevitable. Chuck's right, 0:00:26.680 --> 0:00:30.440 and Don Henley songs, Oh yeah, that's a good one too. 0:00:30.960 --> 0:00:34.760 Heart of the Matter. M hm, you like it? Sure 0:00:34.880 --> 0:00:38.320 all right? That part where it's like I'm learning to 0:00:38.400 --> 0:00:42.600 live with that June Now, it stirs my soul every 0:00:42.640 --> 0:00:46.000 time forgiveness you'd have to be dead inside did not 0:00:46.040 --> 0:00:50.199 be stirred by that part. It's good, good song. But 0:00:50.320 --> 0:00:52.800 he really kind of nails it in that because he's 0:00:52.840 --> 0:00:59.000 talking about forgiveness in the Heart of the Matter. Sure um, 0:00:59.040 --> 0:01:02.720 and he's he wants forgiveness, he needs forgiveness even if 0:01:02.760 --> 0:01:05.280 like it's the end of the relationship, even if she 0:01:05.319 --> 0:01:09.560 doesn't love him anymore. Sure so. On the one hand, 0:01:09.880 --> 0:01:13.120 that is a certain kind of forgiveness that an individual 0:01:13.200 --> 0:01:16.680 or person can that's a path someone can set down. 0:01:17.280 --> 0:01:20.080 But there's been a lot of research starting starting in 0:01:20.080 --> 0:01:23.959 the very beginning um stages at the middle of the 0:01:23.959 --> 0:01:27.679 twentieth century, but really picking up in the nineties. UM 0:01:27.800 --> 0:01:30.920 research into forgiveness like legitimate scientific research, and it's a 0:01:31.000 --> 0:01:36.000 multidisciplinary thing because there's a lot of different fields disciplines 0:01:36.640 --> 0:01:40.160 sure that have said, hey, this actually, this is something 0:01:40.240 --> 0:01:43.600 we can study and measure and produce articles in in 0:01:43.800 --> 0:01:47.200 and work on UM. And they have. They've produced some 0:01:47.240 --> 0:01:50.040 really good legitimate work. But what most of them have 0:01:50.120 --> 0:01:54.400 been focused on is not the Don Henley position of 0:01:54.440 --> 0:01:58.040 somebody who needs to be redeemed, who needs redemption to 0:01:58.080 --> 0:02:01.680 feel better, who needs forgiveness, but rather the person doing 0:02:01.720 --> 0:02:05.280 the forgiving, the person who is originally trans transgressed against, 0:02:05.520 --> 0:02:08.720 not the offender, but the offendee. That's where most of 0:02:08.760 --> 0:02:13.720 the research has been done on forgiveness. Right, Don Henley, 0:02:14.480 --> 0:02:16.480 it's a rock star, so he's he's writing a song 0:02:16.480 --> 0:02:20.359 about wanting to be forgiven for a foursome he had 0:02:20.360 --> 0:02:26.160 in St. Paul backstage. Sure, even if you don't love 0:02:26.160 --> 0:02:28.639 me anymore, can you forgive me that? You know? Can 0:02:28.680 --> 0:02:35.040 you blame a guy? Is what he's saying. So yeah, 0:02:35.040 --> 0:02:37.000 I think that's probably exactly what that song is about, 0:02:37.040 --> 0:02:41.200 now that you mentioned so UM, I think we should 0:02:41.280 --> 0:02:45.320 start by um pointing out something about forgiveness, is that 0:02:45.400 --> 0:02:49.080 a lot of people, Um, there's a lot of stories 0:02:49.120 --> 0:02:53.440 about people not forgiving. We call it revenge, and people 0:02:53.560 --> 0:02:57.760 love revenge, you know, Like think about the revenge movie 0:02:57.880 --> 0:03:01.480 genre and how many entries there are pretty great, Like 0:03:01.760 --> 0:03:05.120 have you ever seen I Saw the Devil? Yeah? Have 0:03:05.200 --> 0:03:09.760 you ever seen Old Boy? Yeah? Have you ever seen 0:03:10.400 --> 0:03:16.280 Death Becomes Her? Yeah? Have you ever seen She Devil? Nope? 0:03:17.120 --> 0:03:20.520 Oh you haven't. With Rosanne Barr and um Ed Bigley 0:03:20.560 --> 0:03:24.560 and and was that a revenge movie? Yes? All of 0:03:24.600 --> 0:03:27.040 them great revenge movies. Can I shout out one of 0:03:27.040 --> 0:03:30.560 my favorites? Yeah? Please do like legitimately, Uh, it's kind 0:03:30.560 --> 0:03:34.040 of a smaller indie movie called Blue Ruin. Oh yeah, 0:03:34.040 --> 0:03:36.520 I saw that one great great revenge movie. If you're 0:03:36.520 --> 0:03:38.960 into revenge movies, and I am, I enjoy it. There's 0:03:38.960 --> 0:03:42.000 a catharcist involved. Because I'm a I'm a big forgiver, 0:03:42.480 --> 0:03:46.360 so I think I like seeing movies where revenge happens. Yeah, 0:03:46.480 --> 0:03:49.240 And we'll talk a lot about, you know, revenge, because 0:03:49.280 --> 0:03:52.760 they're virtually two sides of the same coin, and they 0:03:52.800 --> 0:03:56.160 really interact in some surprising ways that are sensible when 0:03:56.160 --> 0:03:58.280 you see it laid out, but you might not necessarily 0:03:58.320 --> 0:04:01.440 be walking around thinking about But on the other side, 0:04:01.560 --> 0:04:05.440 if you look up movies about forgiveness, almost all of 0:04:05.480 --> 0:04:09.480 them were produced by a megachurch somewhere in the South. 0:04:10.960 --> 0:04:15.560 Or you've got Magnolia and then the Fisher King are 0:04:15.640 --> 0:04:20.839 like the two like legitimate contenders for movies about forgiveness. Well, 0:04:22.440 --> 0:04:24.120 I don't know, because I think there's a fine line 0:04:24.160 --> 0:04:28.400 sometimes between redemption stories and forgiveness stories. They can kind 0:04:28.400 --> 0:04:31.280 of go hand in hand. There are plenty of redemption stories. Okay, 0:04:31.279 --> 0:04:35.840 Like what what redemption stories? Yeah, let's hear it. Oh, 0:04:35.920 --> 0:04:44.240 I mean Hoosiers one of the great sports redemption movies. Okay, 0:04:44.400 --> 0:04:49.039 I think that's a pretty loose definition of redemption. Former 0:04:49.120 --> 0:04:52.840 alcoholic coach who who was not working because of some 0:04:52.880 --> 0:04:56.480 bad deeds gets redeemed by looking a team to a championship. 0:04:57.040 --> 0:05:01.160 Dennis Hopper gets redeemed as the alcoholic father. Wait a minute, 0:05:01.279 --> 0:05:05.440 was was um Gene Hackman on the road to redemption? 0:05:05.480 --> 0:05:08.880 I thought he came in and basically got Dennis Hopper 0:05:08.920 --> 0:05:14.320 redeemed himself a double redemption. He was getting redeemed as well. Alright, Okay, Okay, Okay, 0:05:14.400 --> 0:05:16.560 so plenty of redemption stories, and I think there's a 0:05:16.560 --> 0:05:20.320 lot of movies that wrestle with the idea of forgiveness 0:05:20.320 --> 0:05:25.919 and really weighty, heavy ways. Uh like these true stories 0:05:25.920 --> 0:05:29.640 that you hear about these awful things that happened, whether 0:05:29.680 --> 0:05:33.520 a family member is accidentally killed by someone or murdered 0:05:33.520 --> 0:05:37.839 by someone. Like, there's a lot of that stuff in movies. Okay, 0:05:37.880 --> 0:05:40.400 So my thesis was this, and this is strictly me 0:05:40.600 --> 0:05:43.760 editorializing here, but I think there's some validity too, and 0:05:43.800 --> 0:05:46.839 that is that the reason why it's much easier to 0:05:46.960 --> 0:05:51.920 name revenge movies is because revenge appeals to our baser instincts. 0:05:51.920 --> 0:05:56.200 It makes sense, it's it's universally understood. Um, And like 0:05:56.240 --> 0:05:58.920 you said, you even consider yourself a big time forgiver, 0:05:59.440 --> 0:06:02.320 and yet you enjoy revenge movies. It's cathartic for you. 0:06:02.360 --> 0:06:05.400 There's something to be delivered by a revenge movie, a 0:06:05.440 --> 0:06:10.599 movie about forgiveness. It's just more complicated, it's harder. We're 0:06:10.640 --> 0:06:15.279 not as good and and and um, we're not as 0:06:15.320 --> 0:06:20.479 automatically adept at forgiveness as we may be with revenge. 0:06:20.960 --> 0:06:24.880 That's why I think there's fewer forgiveness movies. But that's 0:06:24.880 --> 0:06:26.560 not to say that we're not moved by it, because 0:06:26.600 --> 0:06:30.120 I think if you hear whenever you hear real life 0:06:30.240 --> 0:06:34.680 stories of forgiveness, they just bowl you over. Even when 0:06:34.680 --> 0:06:36.839 you step back and think about like what the person 0:06:36.880 --> 0:06:40.760 is actually doing, you're like, yes, legitimately, anybody could do 0:06:40.800 --> 0:06:45.000 what they just did. It's it's akin to hearing somebody's 0:06:45.040 --> 0:06:48.839 solo climbing Mount Everest or something like that. It's just 0:06:48.920 --> 0:06:53.600 it makes the news literally when somebody forgives in a 0:06:53.680 --> 0:06:56.120 in a like a really deep way that the average 0:06:56.120 --> 0:07:00.159 person might not, yeah, like a big time transgression. A 0:07:00.160 --> 0:07:03.320 lot of times you'll hear of a courtroom seen where 0:07:03.360 --> 0:07:06.839 someone has forgiven the person who like murdered their their 0:07:06.880 --> 0:07:10.240 relative or loved one or something, and that man, that 0:07:10.320 --> 0:07:14.320 stuff is powerful. You're right every time you see these stories. Uh, 0:07:14.400 --> 0:07:20.120 you dug up this one story from Berkeley, the Greater 0:07:20.120 --> 0:07:24.040 Good magazine, Uh, science based insights for a meaningful life. 0:07:24.640 --> 0:07:28.880 But if you see Berkeley of this woman who was 0:07:29.200 --> 0:07:33.320 a nurses aid who hit a guy. She had been drinking, 0:07:33.520 --> 0:07:36.360 hit a guy in her car. He went through the windshield, 0:07:37.320 --> 0:07:40.000 uh and was stuck there and she was so impaired, 0:07:40.600 --> 0:07:44.920 she didn't realize it for a while. Uh eventually realized 0:07:44.960 --> 0:07:47.880 that got out of the car, could not get the 0:07:47.920 --> 0:07:50.920 guy out, who was still alive, mind you, and so 0:07:51.200 --> 0:07:54.000 drove home and parked your car in the garage to 0:07:54.080 --> 0:07:58.160 let this guy slowly die in her garage over the 0:07:58.160 --> 0:08:01.240 course of a couple of days, and like she sobered up, 0:08:01.240 --> 0:08:03.000 would go out and check on him once in a while, 0:08:03.000 --> 0:08:05.200 but refused to call for help because she was too 0:08:05.240 --> 0:08:08.960 concerned about getting in trouble. So instead she let him die, 0:08:09.200 --> 0:08:11.800 had a couple of friends come help her hide the body, 0:08:11.880 --> 0:08:15.080 moved the body, and then actually got found out later 0:08:15.200 --> 0:08:17.880 on because four months later she was at a party 0:08:18.160 --> 0:08:20.800 and she joked about it to an acquaintance who went 0:08:20.840 --> 0:08:23.520 and told the cops, and this woman ended up getting 0:08:23.560 --> 0:08:27.080 fifty years in prison. That's a horrible story. Like, that's 0:08:27.120 --> 0:08:29.320 one of the worst things that a human being could 0:08:29.320 --> 0:08:32.559 possibly do. There were so many opportunities for this woman 0:08:32.840 --> 0:08:35.760 to save this man's life. And by the way, everyone 0:08:35.880 --> 0:08:38.720 involved in that court case who had a medical degree 0:08:39.080 --> 0:08:42.200 said that had she called the cops, the fire department 0:08:42.640 --> 0:08:46.000 taken the guy to the hospital, he almost certainly would 0:08:46.000 --> 0:08:49.320 have survived. Those injuries, but given that she didn't for 0:08:49.440 --> 0:08:52.280 days get him medical aid, he finally did succumb to them, 0:08:52.320 --> 0:08:54.920 but he probably would have survived, almost certainly would have survived. 0:08:55.400 --> 0:08:58.040 Like what she did was about as horrific as as 0:08:58.240 --> 0:09:01.280 what what a person could do. It is so irresponsible 0:09:01.280 --> 0:09:04.800 with human life. And she rightfully got a fifty year 0:09:04.880 --> 0:09:09.640 prison sentence um for that crime. And yet despite how 0:09:09.679 --> 0:09:13.400 horrific that was, what made news just as much as 0:09:13.480 --> 0:09:16.720 that is that a short time later, that man's son, 0:09:16.800 --> 0:09:20.960 the man who was hit and killed, publicly forgave that 0:09:21.000 --> 0:09:26.199 woman for for killing his father. Yes, at the sentencing 0:09:26.960 --> 0:09:30.320 said quote, there's there's no winners in a case like this. 0:09:31.000 --> 0:09:34.240 Just as we all lost Greg, you all will be 0:09:34.280 --> 0:09:37.160 losing your daughter to her family. I still want to 0:09:37.200 --> 0:09:40.920 extend my forgiveness to Shante Mallard was her name, and 0:09:41.000 --> 0:09:43.240 let her know that the Mallard family is in my prayers. 0:09:43.440 --> 0:09:45.720 And this is the kind of stuff, like you said, 0:09:45.760 --> 0:09:49.560 that makes the news where I think it hits everybody 0:09:49.640 --> 0:09:53.360 because it makes everybody stop for a second and say, 0:09:53.640 --> 0:09:57.480 could I do that? Yes? Could I reach that point 0:09:58.080 --> 0:10:02.400 of forgiveness? And that's a big, weighty question because there's 0:10:02.440 --> 0:10:07.480 all kinds of forgiveness. There's uh, you know, a couple 0:10:08.280 --> 0:10:12.240 partners together who getting a fight and someone says they're 0:10:12.240 --> 0:10:14.640 sorry for doing a certain thing and they're forgiven or not. 0:10:15.320 --> 0:10:19.160 There are uh situations at work where people are forgiven. 0:10:19.200 --> 0:10:23.600 There are friends who maybe betray you by like cheating 0:10:23.800 --> 0:10:28.720 on on somebody with someone. I had a situation like 0:10:28.760 --> 0:10:31.960 that where I had a former friend I felt like 0:10:32.040 --> 0:10:36.440 cheated with my barely ex girlfriend and I spent quite 0:10:36.440 --> 0:10:39.960 a few years being upset about that and then forgave him. 0:10:40.240 --> 0:10:43.400 And it's a powerful thing. So there's there's like levels, 0:10:43.440 --> 0:10:46.000 but when you get to this kind of thing where 0:10:46.480 --> 0:10:49.560 someone caused the death of a loved one and then 0:10:49.600 --> 0:10:52.160 even laughed about it, like to be able to forgive 0:10:52.320 --> 0:10:55.720 like that is just uh, that's next level. It is. 0:10:55.760 --> 0:10:58.280 It is so much so chuck that a group of 0:10:58.360 --> 0:11:02.480 convicted murderers who were serving sentences in prison heard about this, 0:11:02.679 --> 0:11:05.400 and I guess got in touch with one another and 0:11:06.000 --> 0:11:10.120 raised funds and and got a ten tho dollars scholarship 0:11:10.160 --> 0:11:15.319 together for Brandon Biggs Um to go to college. Um, 0:11:15.520 --> 0:11:18.320 the convicted murderer sent the kid to college. Because this 0:11:18.559 --> 0:11:21.920 this very generous act of public forgiveness of his own 0:11:22.000 --> 0:11:26.240 father's murderer. UM. So yeah, it is. It's an astounding thing. 0:11:26.280 --> 0:11:31.080 And yet everything that, like the research that really, like 0:11:31.120 --> 0:11:35.080 I said, started to take off in earnest in the nineties, UM, 0:11:35.120 --> 0:11:39.240 has shown us is that we're all perfectly capable of 0:11:39.280 --> 0:11:42.000 doing that. The answer is, yes, yes, you can do that, 0:11:42.080 --> 0:11:45.400 You totally could do that, but that we don't necessarily 0:11:45.400 --> 0:11:49.760 fully understand how to. Uh. And yet there's a lot 0:11:49.800 --> 0:11:53.280 of evidence also that it's evolutionarily wired into us to 0:11:53.360 --> 0:11:56.880 do that. Yeah. And you know, we'll get into religiosity 0:11:56.880 --> 0:12:00.439 of it a bit more in detail later, but all 0:12:00.480 --> 0:12:04.360 religions talk a lot about forgiveness. Uh. There's you know, 0:12:04.400 --> 0:12:07.400 a pretty famous story in the Bible where Peter said 0:12:07.720 --> 0:12:09.840 to Jesus, Lord, how many times shall I forgive my 0:12:09.880 --> 0:12:13.080 brother or sister who sends against me? Up to seven times? 0:12:13.559 --> 0:12:16.720 And Jesus said, I tell you, not seven times, but 0:12:16.840 --> 0:12:21.840 seventy times seven. And Peter said, so four times, and 0:12:21.960 --> 0:12:25.800 Jesus said, oh, Peter, always so literal. Yeah, that one's 0:12:25.840 --> 0:12:28.080 pretty good. But you know, you can read Hindu, you 0:12:28.120 --> 0:12:31.760 can read the Buddhists talk about it, like everyone, every 0:12:31.800 --> 0:12:35.959 religion talks about forgiveness is kind of a maybe a 0:12:35.960 --> 0:12:40.520 cornerstone of of the religion in some cases, so much 0:12:40.600 --> 0:12:44.440 so that Um, when science started looking into forgiveness and 0:12:44.440 --> 0:12:49.000 and and just trying to figure it out. Um, generally 0:12:49.080 --> 0:12:52.760 people is just presumed forgiveness was under the realm and 0:12:52.800 --> 0:12:55.679 the domain of religion, that that's where that's where you 0:12:55.720 --> 0:12:58.319 went for answers about forgiveness, and science said, oh ho ho, 0:12:58.920 --> 0:13:02.319 we can we can top that. Well, surely we can 0:13:02.400 --> 0:13:05.080 beat that four ninety number. And that's what they've said 0:13:05.080 --> 0:13:10.079 about doing Yeah, I mean Jesus forgave his crucifiers. It's 0:13:10.080 --> 0:13:12.199 like one of the few things Jesus said on the cross. 0:13:12.240 --> 0:13:16.200 According to the Bible, they know not what they do, 0:13:16.360 --> 0:13:20.559 like forgive them for they know not what they do. Right. Uh. 0:13:20.600 --> 0:13:23.320 And like you said, it's not just Christianity, although Christianity 0:13:23.360 --> 0:13:27.760 gets all the all the accolades for forgiveness, Um, Jainism 0:13:27.880 --> 0:13:30.240 is a big one. There's a there's a kind of 0:13:30.240 --> 0:13:33.320 a mantra from Jainism that says, I grant forgiveness to 0:13:33.360 --> 0:13:36.760 all living beings. The all living beings grant me forgiveness. 0:13:37.080 --> 0:13:40.320 My friendship is with all living beings. My enmity is 0:13:40.360 --> 0:13:44.600 totally non existent. And um, that's I mean when you 0:13:44.640 --> 0:13:48.360 look at that, especially if you're not a janist, um, 0:13:48.480 --> 0:13:50.920 you're you're like, wow, how would you ever? How would 0:13:50.920 --> 0:13:53.160 you ever reach that level? And I think that the 0:13:53.240 --> 0:13:55.680 point is like you never reach that level. It's an ideal, 0:13:55.720 --> 0:13:58.320 a goal that you try to achieve, probably on a 0:13:58.400 --> 0:14:01.120 daily basis if you're a janist, but it's certainly over 0:14:01.160 --> 0:14:04.199 a lifetime, you know. Yeah. And I'd like to read this, 0:14:04.360 --> 0:14:07.040 uh again not to pile on the religious stuff, but 0:14:07.120 --> 0:14:11.040 the Hindu and really spoke to me. Uh. This one 0:14:11.080 --> 0:14:13.200 part in the middle says what can a wicked person do? 0:14:14.040 --> 0:14:16.840 And to him or into one who carries the saber 0:14:16.880 --> 0:14:20.760 of forgiveness in his hand? And that one really speaks 0:14:20.760 --> 0:14:24.000 to me, and that it's the it's a powerful tool 0:14:24.880 --> 0:14:28.840 to forgive, and it's for you as the forgiver. I 0:14:28.840 --> 0:14:31.240 think a lot of times people think it's can clear 0:14:31.280 --> 0:14:33.240 the conscious of someone who's done something wrong. I guess 0:14:33.240 --> 0:14:36.600 that certainly happens, But to me, it's it's really about 0:14:37.200 --> 0:14:40.600 it's a it's a powerful weapon. You have to regain 0:14:40.680 --> 0:14:45.200 your own strength as a human. Yes, that seems to 0:14:45.240 --> 0:14:48.240 be the bulk of what psychology is is coming up 0:14:48.280 --> 0:14:50.920 with as far as studying forgiveness goes that it's really 0:14:51.400 --> 0:14:55.320 the person who is who has been wronged. That's what 0:14:55.440 --> 0:14:59.720 forgiveness is more about. That's the psychological aspect of it. 0:15:00.040 --> 0:15:03.680 Like we said, there's um, it's a multidisciplinary investigation, and 0:15:03.720 --> 0:15:07.080 so you've got evolutionary biologists whore like, that's really great psychology, 0:15:07.160 --> 0:15:09.640 But we found a different reason for forgiveness and it 0:15:09.680 --> 0:15:13.440 doesn't quite fit that mold um and then um, like 0:15:13.720 --> 0:15:17.680 the medical field says, no, it's even better than that. 0:15:18.040 --> 0:15:22.920 You can actually like improve your health by genuinely forgiving somebody. 0:15:23.080 --> 0:15:25.320 So there's all these different inputs that are coming together 0:15:25.360 --> 0:15:29.600 to create this really like complex, contextualized picture of what 0:15:29.800 --> 0:15:31.880 forgiveness is and what it does for us and why 0:15:32.000 --> 0:15:35.240 we have it. That's right. I think it's a great 0:15:35.280 --> 0:15:37.760 set up. I agree, you want to take a break, 0:15:38.280 --> 0:15:40.160 I might just not come back, and that feels so 0:15:40.160 --> 0:15:43.560 good about that. No, we have to finish. We got 0:15:43.560 --> 0:15:45.680 to complete, all right, We'll be back in a minute 0:15:45.720 --> 0:15:47.600 to talk about what I think it is. Probably the 0:15:47.640 --> 0:15:50.560 most interesting part of this is the evolutionary aspect. Right 0:15:50.560 --> 0:16:25.240 after this, So this was this, Uh this is Libya correct? 0:16:27.160 --> 0:16:30.200 Uh forgiveness was the Dave Ruse joint. Okay, I thought 0:16:30.200 --> 0:16:32.680 this was Olivia. So yeah, thanks to Day for this. 0:16:32.760 --> 0:16:35.480 He did a great job with this research. But the 0:16:35.760 --> 0:16:38.920 evolutionary aspect of forgiveness is super interesting to me because 0:16:38.960 --> 0:16:42.760 I think that a lot of people assume that it's 0:16:43.200 --> 0:16:46.720 what Dave calls a higher virtue, like you know is 0:16:47.120 --> 0:16:51.360 took took in the gang were so base as uh, 0:16:51.400 --> 0:16:54.240 you know kind of primitive thinkers, is that they didn't 0:16:54.280 --> 0:16:57.640 have the capacity forgive. They would they would smite somebody 0:16:57.680 --> 0:17:00.200 if if someone punched, took, took in the face, took, 0:17:00.200 --> 0:17:03.200 took punch back, or someone attack took, took, took, took 0:17:03.240 --> 0:17:06.960 attack back, maybe even harder. And there is a quite 0:17:06.960 --> 0:17:10.600 a bit of evidence that um, they're not mutually exclusive, 0:17:10.640 --> 0:17:13.919 and that that that fighting back and forgiving both have 0:17:14.400 --> 0:17:19.200 a big evolutionary advantage. Yeah. So the big evolutionary advantage 0:17:19.200 --> 0:17:22.080 of revenge is if you live in a social group 0:17:22.840 --> 0:17:25.440 and somebody takes advantage of you, or they hit you, 0:17:25.560 --> 0:17:28.240 or they steal your food or whatever, if you don't 0:17:28.320 --> 0:17:31.919 do something to right that wrong, you're broadcasting to the 0:17:31.920 --> 0:17:36.080 rest of the group that you're open for exploitation, and 0:17:36.200 --> 0:17:38.240 that's not good for you. It's also not good for 0:17:38.280 --> 0:17:41.160 the chances that you're going to pass along your genes, 0:17:41.520 --> 0:17:45.160 and so under the under the auspices of natural selection, 0:17:45.480 --> 0:17:47.639 it makes sense for you to hit that person that 0:17:47.720 --> 0:17:50.480 steals your food or who hits you. And that's revenge, 0:17:50.520 --> 0:17:53.720 and revenge forms that function in a social group. It 0:17:53.720 --> 0:17:56.760 says to everybody, signals to the rest of the group, 0:17:57.040 --> 0:17:59.240 you're not to be messed with. This guy tried it, 0:17:59.240 --> 0:18:02.200 and look what happened to him. Nobody else should try that. 0:18:02.640 --> 0:18:05.600 Go pick on somebody else. And there's actually been studies 0:18:05.600 --> 0:18:09.439 that have showed that not just among apes and primates, um, 0:18:09.480 --> 0:18:14.280 but among human cultures. Revenge is found pretty much universally. 0:18:14.880 --> 0:18:17.280 And I saw a study Chuck that said that, um, 0:18:17.359 --> 0:18:20.440 the mere presence of a person, a third party who's 0:18:20.440 --> 0:18:23.840 witnessing an argument increases the chances that the argument is 0:18:23.880 --> 0:18:27.760 going to come to blows because you're signaling to the 0:18:27.840 --> 0:18:29.879 rest of the group, and in this case, just that 0:18:30.000 --> 0:18:32.400 third person you are not to be messed with. That 0:18:32.400 --> 0:18:35.800 that's the purpose of revenge is to is to broadcast 0:18:35.840 --> 0:18:39.280 that signal. Yeah, I mean, I would say that any 0:18:39.359 --> 0:18:43.600 kind of dumb, drunk bar fight. Half of it is 0:18:43.680 --> 0:18:46.359 the fact that someone didn't want to back down in 0:18:46.359 --> 0:18:50.679 front of other people. Sure, you know more than and 0:18:50.680 --> 0:18:53.920 that if those two guys were just in a alley somewhere, 0:18:54.240 --> 0:18:57.159 they may just hug it out. Yeah, probably not, but 0:18:57.240 --> 0:19:00.760 you never know that's possible, or they talk it out 0:19:00.800 --> 0:19:04.560 at least or disagree that it's dumb and leave. Yes, 0:19:05.240 --> 0:19:08.360 but you talked about studies in the animal world. Uh, 0:19:08.359 --> 0:19:12.840 there's a primatologist named Franz Daval who looked at wild 0:19:12.920 --> 0:19:19.200 chimps recorded three and fifty encounters aggressive encounters between these 0:19:19.280 --> 0:19:25.240 chimps and then what happened afterward. And in of these encounters, Uh, 0:19:25.280 --> 0:19:27.960 the chimps would literally kind of kiss and make up 0:19:28.560 --> 0:19:31.800 and touch each other and embrace each other after a fight. 0:19:32.320 --> 0:19:36.000 We've seen the same thing in bona bows and great apes. Um, 0:19:36.040 --> 0:19:40.040 there's sheep, there's dolphins, there's goats. Even hyenas have shown 0:19:40.040 --> 0:19:43.600 traits of forgiveness. So it's it's not ubiquitous, but it 0:19:43.720 --> 0:19:46.680 is all over the animal kingdom. Animals fighting and then 0:19:46.680 --> 0:19:49.840 animals making up with one another, Right, So I mean 0:19:49.880 --> 0:19:52.600 the revenge once pretty easy to understand. But then you're like, Okay, 0:19:52.600 --> 0:19:54.840 well why why would there be the making up part? 0:19:54.960 --> 0:19:57.400 But that also ties into the fact that these same 0:19:57.440 --> 0:20:02.320 animals are also um living in social tight knit social groups, 0:20:02.800 --> 0:20:05.159 and so you have a limited amount of people that 0:20:05.200 --> 0:20:07.879 you can possibly have a dispute or a feud with, 0:20:08.640 --> 0:20:13.280 and if you're not working together cooperatively in that sense, 0:20:13.480 --> 0:20:18.159 also your your chances of survival are decreased. So what 0:20:18.320 --> 0:20:22.600 makes sense is what's called the valuable relationship hYP hypothesis, 0:20:22.640 --> 0:20:26.399 which says, if somebody hits you, you should hit them back, 0:20:27.040 --> 0:20:28.919 but then after that you should make up with them. 0:20:29.000 --> 0:20:31.120 So you're sending that signal you're not to be messed with. 0:20:31.320 --> 0:20:34.879 But then you're repairing that relationship, that valuable relationship that 0:20:35.160 --> 0:20:37.919 you depend on to help your survival in the in 0:20:37.960 --> 0:20:41.919 the um social group UM, you're appairing it and then you, 0:20:41.960 --> 0:20:46.159 guys can move forward. And that that is the how um. 0:20:46.359 --> 0:20:50.400 Revenge and forgiveness are basically two sides of the same coin, 0:20:50.520 --> 0:20:52.840 or at least work in conjunction with one another to 0:20:53.000 --> 0:20:58.119 keep the group um functioning at its best. Uh. And 0:20:58.160 --> 0:21:01.400 that kind of dovetails with a second part of that 0:21:01.640 --> 0:21:05.640 UM thing, which is called negative reciprocity, which is if 0:21:05.640 --> 0:21:11.359 someone hits took took and took took goes crazy and 0:21:11.640 --> 0:21:14.399 just starts whaling on the other person who just slapped 0:21:14.440 --> 0:21:17.720 him in the face. That's not good either, because everyone's 0:21:17.720 --> 0:21:21.439 gonna go, whoa uh, took took. I'm not sure I 0:21:21.480 --> 0:21:24.280 trust him now. Um, he has definitely burned that bridge 0:21:24.280 --> 0:21:27.600 forever between him and the other guy. And none of 0:21:27.640 --> 0:21:31.840 this is very good. So what they found is negative reciprocity. 0:21:31.920 --> 0:21:35.120 If you if someone smites you, you smite them back 0:21:35.280 --> 0:21:38.639 the same amount and then forgive them. Like if someone 0:21:39.000 --> 0:21:41.680 takes off their glove and slaps you across the face, 0:21:42.520 --> 0:21:45.399 you don't you don't kick him between the legs and 0:21:45.400 --> 0:21:48.040 then wail on their face. You slap them back with 0:21:48.080 --> 0:21:50.800 your glove. And then you talk about forgiving one another, 0:21:50.880 --> 0:21:54.119 and everyone sees that you can work with people. You 0:21:54.160 --> 0:21:57.000 can you can stand your ground, but you can also 0:21:57.119 --> 0:21:59.879 forgive and work with people, which means you're valuable to 0:21:59.920 --> 0:22:02.600 the group and you're valuable to have around. Yeah, and 0:22:02.640 --> 0:22:04.680 so kind of tie it into what you were saying 0:22:04.720 --> 0:22:08.480 earlier about you know how there's this idea that you know, 0:22:08.840 --> 0:22:12.560 revenge is a base instinct and forgiveness as a higher instinct, 0:22:12.720 --> 0:22:16.280 rather than realizing that they're both pretty basic instincts. For 0:22:16.280 --> 0:22:20.200 for um, among the animal kingdom is there's this idea 0:22:20.280 --> 0:22:25.000 that in human society, UM, we have created like these 0:22:25.040 --> 0:22:30.399 social institutions in these contexts so that the individual doesn't 0:22:30.440 --> 0:22:34.040 have to to carry out revenge and then forgiveness, that 0:22:34.080 --> 0:22:37.240 they can just focus on forgiveness as long as those 0:22:37.240 --> 0:22:40.160 social institutions are doing what they're supposed to do, as 0:22:40.200 --> 0:22:43.439 long as there is like a pursuit of justice, and 0:22:43.520 --> 0:22:46.720 you can rely on the idea that the person who 0:22:46.760 --> 0:22:49.280 transgressed against you by killing your father is going to 0:22:49.320 --> 0:22:52.160 be caught and punished and sentenced to jail. You don't 0:22:52.160 --> 0:22:55.040 have to worry about revenge. It's being it's being conducted 0:22:55.080 --> 0:22:57.840 for you, and then you, the individual in this well 0:22:57.880 --> 0:23:00.840 functioning society, can just focus on whether you want to 0:23:00.880 --> 0:23:03.440 forgive or not. And that that's that kind of higher 0:23:03.480 --> 0:23:07.800 and lower echelon. Because in the in the opposite situation 0:23:08.080 --> 0:23:10.520 where there isn't like a good sense of justice, where 0:23:10.520 --> 0:23:12.679 it does seem like if you want justice you have 0:23:12.760 --> 0:23:15.040 to go seek it out yourself, revenge is going to 0:23:15.080 --> 0:23:19.840 be much more UM exercise much more frequently than forgiveness 0:23:19.880 --> 0:23:23.520 will Yeah, which says a lot about the United States 0:23:23.600 --> 0:23:26.800 these days, you know. Yeah, I mean I'm not trying 0:23:26.800 --> 0:23:28.520 to be cynical even, I mean, that's just sort of 0:23:29.240 --> 0:23:30.760 what we see around us. I think a lot of 0:23:30.760 --> 0:23:33.679 people feel like the sense of justice in this country 0:23:33.720 --> 0:23:37.199 is pretty skewed, and that's why you might see the 0:23:38.040 --> 0:23:43.119 increases and things like vigilanism or revenge. And um, I 0:23:43.119 --> 0:23:44.720 don't know what society is you look to do a 0:23:44.760 --> 0:23:47.040 study like that. I'm kind of curious on the ones 0:23:47.040 --> 0:23:50.040 that are very well policed and the justice is um 0:23:50.080 --> 0:23:54.360 sort of fair and equal, but um, I think that's 0:23:54.400 --> 0:23:57.200 one of the problems in the in the States these 0:23:57.280 --> 0:24:00.480 days for sure. Yeah, without getting too far down the 0:24:00.560 --> 0:24:03.440 rabbit hole, but also even you know, it's it's kind 0:24:03.440 --> 0:24:05.880 of eye opening to me because I've never really thought 0:24:05.880 --> 0:24:10.000 about the courts and the justice system is um set 0:24:10.119 --> 0:24:14.119 up to help individuals move along? Yeah, it should. You 0:24:14.160 --> 0:24:16.960 just think of it as punishment, as a system for punishment, 0:24:17.040 --> 0:24:21.639 not for redemption necessarily, but um, but it's also to 0:24:22.040 --> 0:24:26.040 help the victims. I just never saw it that way before. Yeah, 0:24:26.080 --> 0:24:28.240 it's interesting when you talk about that guy in court, 0:24:28.280 --> 0:24:31.919 and a lot of times you'll hear the courtroom forgiveness. Um, 0:24:32.080 --> 0:24:34.680 sometimes you will also hear the opposite, and you hear 0:24:34.760 --> 0:24:37.359