1 00:00:01,480 --> 00:00:04,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a production of I 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:13,320 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey you, welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, 3 00:00:13,360 --> 00:00:15,680 Speaker 1: and there's Chuck and Jerry's here too, and this is 4 00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 1: stuff you should know. Some philosophical waxing is going to 5 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:26,560 Speaker 1: happen in this one. I think it's inevitable. Chuck's right, 6 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:30,440 Speaker 1: and Don Henley songs, Oh yeah, that's a good one too. 7 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:34,760 Speaker 1: Heart of the Matter. M hm, you like it? Sure 8 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:38,320 Speaker 1: all right? That part where it's like I'm learning to 9 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:42,600 Speaker 1: live with that June Now, it stirs my soul every 10 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:46,000 Speaker 1: time forgiveness you'd have to be dead inside did not 11 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:50,199 Speaker 1: be stirred by that part. It's good, good song. But 12 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:52,800 Speaker 1: he really kind of nails it in that because he's 13 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:59,000 Speaker 1: talking about forgiveness in the Heart of the Matter. Sure um, 14 00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:02,720 Speaker 1: and he's he wants forgiveness, he needs forgiveness even if 15 00:01:02,760 --> 00:01:05,280 Speaker 1: like it's the end of the relationship, even if she 16 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:09,560 Speaker 1: doesn't love him anymore. Sure so. On the one hand, 17 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:13,120 Speaker 1: that is a certain kind of forgiveness that an individual 18 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:16,680 Speaker 1: or person can that's a path someone can set down. 19 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:20,080 Speaker 1: But there's been a lot of research starting starting in 20 00:01:20,080 --> 00:01:23,959 Speaker 1: the very beginning um stages at the middle of the 21 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:27,679 Speaker 1: twentieth century, but really picking up in the nineties. UM 22 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:30,920 Speaker 1: research into forgiveness like legitimate scientific research, and it's a 23 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:36,000 Speaker 1: multidisciplinary thing because there's a lot of different fields disciplines 24 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:40,160 Speaker 1: sure that have said, hey, this actually, this is something 25 00:01:40,240 --> 00:01:43,600 Speaker 1: we can study and measure and produce articles in in 26 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:47,200 Speaker 1: and work on UM. And they have. They've produced some 27 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:50,040 Speaker 1: really good legitimate work. But what most of them have 28 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:54,400 Speaker 1: been focused on is not the Don Henley position of 29 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:58,040 Speaker 1: somebody who needs to be redeemed, who needs redemption to 30 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:01,680 Speaker 1: feel better, who needs forgiveness, but rather the person doing 31 00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:05,280 Speaker 1: the forgiving, the person who is originally trans transgressed against, 32 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 1: not the offender, but the offendee. That's where most of 33 00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:13,720 Speaker 1: the research has been done on forgiveness. Right, Don Henley, 34 00:02:14,480 --> 00:02:16,480 Speaker 1: it's a rock star, so he's he's writing a song 35 00:02:16,480 --> 00:02:20,359 Speaker 1: about wanting to be forgiven for a foursome he had 36 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:26,160 Speaker 1: in St. Paul backstage. Sure, even if you don't love 37 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:28,639 Speaker 1: me anymore, can you forgive me that? You know? Can 38 00:02:28,680 --> 00:02:35,040 Speaker 1: you blame a guy? Is what he's saying. So yeah, 39 00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 1: I think that's probably exactly what that song is about, 40 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:41,200 Speaker 1: now that you mentioned so UM, I think we should 41 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:45,320 Speaker 1: start by um pointing out something about forgiveness, is that 42 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:49,080 Speaker 1: a lot of people, Um, there's a lot of stories 43 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:53,440 Speaker 1: about people not forgiving. We call it revenge, and people 44 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:57,760 Speaker 1: love revenge, you know, Like think about the revenge movie 45 00:02:57,880 --> 00:03:01,480 Speaker 1: genre and how many entries there are pretty great, Like 46 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:05,120 Speaker 1: have you ever seen I Saw the Devil? Yeah? Have 47 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:09,760 Speaker 1: you ever seen Old Boy? Yeah? Have you ever seen 48 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:16,280 Speaker 1: Death Becomes Her? Yeah? Have you ever seen She Devil? Nope? 49 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:20,520 Speaker 1: Oh you haven't. With Rosanne Barr and um Ed Bigley 50 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 1: and and was that a revenge movie? Yes? All of 51 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:27,040 Speaker 1: them great revenge movies. Can I shout out one of 52 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:30,560 Speaker 1: my favorites? Yeah? Please do like legitimately, Uh, it's kind 53 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 1: of a smaller indie movie called Blue Ruin. Oh yeah, 54 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:36,520 Speaker 1: I saw that one great great revenge movie. If you're 55 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:38,960 Speaker 1: into revenge movies, and I am, I enjoy it. There's 56 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:42,000 Speaker 1: a catharcist involved. Because I'm a I'm a big forgiver, 57 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 1: so I think I like seeing movies where revenge happens. Yeah, 58 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:49,240 Speaker 1: And we'll talk a lot about, you know, revenge, because 59 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:52,760 Speaker 1: they're virtually two sides of the same coin, and they 60 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:56,160 Speaker 1: really interact in some surprising ways that are sensible when 61 00:03:56,160 --> 00:03:58,280 Speaker 1: you see it laid out, but you might not necessarily 62 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:01,440 Speaker 1: be walking around thinking about But on the other side, 63 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:05,440 Speaker 1: if you look up movies about forgiveness, almost all of 64 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:09,480 Speaker 1: them were produced by a megachurch somewhere in the South. 65 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:15,560 Speaker 1: Or you've got Magnolia and then the Fisher King are 66 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:20,839 Speaker 1: like the two like legitimate contenders for movies about forgiveness. Well, 67 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:24,120 Speaker 1: I don't know, because I think there's a fine line 68 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:28,400 Speaker 1: sometimes between redemption stories and forgiveness stories. They can kind 69 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:31,280 Speaker 1: of go hand in hand. There are plenty of redemption stories. Okay, 70 00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:35,840 Speaker 1: Like what what redemption stories? Yeah, let's hear it. Oh, 71 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:44,240 Speaker 1: I mean Hoosiers one of the great sports redemption movies. Okay, 72 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:49,039 Speaker 1: I think that's a pretty loose definition of redemption. Former 73 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:52,840 Speaker 1: alcoholic coach who who was not working because of some 74 00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:56,480 Speaker 1: bad deeds gets redeemed by looking a team to a championship. 75 00:04:57,040 --> 00:05:01,160 Speaker 1: Dennis Hopper gets redeemed as the alcoholic father. Wait a minute, 76 00:05:01,279 --> 00:05:05,440 Speaker 1: was was um Gene Hackman on the road to redemption? 77 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:08,880 Speaker 1: I thought he came in and basically got Dennis Hopper 78 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:14,320 Speaker 1: redeemed himself a double redemption. He was getting redeemed as well. Alright, Okay, Okay, Okay, 79 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:16,560 Speaker 1: so plenty of redemption stories, and I think there's a 80 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 1: lot of movies that wrestle with the idea of forgiveness 81 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:25,919 Speaker 1: and really weighty, heavy ways. Uh like these true stories 82 00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 1: that you hear about these awful things that happened, whether 83 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:33,520 Speaker 1: a family member is accidentally killed by someone or murdered 84 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:37,839 Speaker 1: by someone. Like, there's a lot of that stuff in movies. Okay, 85 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:40,400 Speaker 1: So my thesis was this, and this is strictly me 86 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 1: editorializing here, but I think there's some validity too, and 87 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:46,839 Speaker 1: that is that the reason why it's much easier to 88 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:51,920 Speaker 1: name revenge movies is because revenge appeals to our baser instincts. 89 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:56,200 Speaker 1: It makes sense, it's it's universally understood. Um, And like 90 00:05:56,240 --> 00:05:58,920 Speaker 1: you said, you even consider yourself a big time forgiver, 91 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:02,320 Speaker 1: and yet you enjoy revenge movies. It's cathartic for you. 92 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:05,400 Speaker 1: There's something to be delivered by a revenge movie, a 93 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:10,599 Speaker 1: movie about forgiveness. It's just more complicated, it's harder. We're 94 00:06:10,640 --> 00:06:15,279 Speaker 1: not as good and and and um, we're not as 95 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:20,479 Speaker 1: automatically adept at forgiveness as we may be with revenge. 96 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:24,880 Speaker 1: That's why I think there's fewer forgiveness movies. But that's 97 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:26,560 Speaker 1: not to say that we're not moved by it, because 98 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:30,120 Speaker 1: I think if you hear whenever you hear real life 99 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:34,680 Speaker 1: stories of forgiveness, they just bowl you over. Even when 100 00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:36,839 Speaker 1: you step back and think about like what the person 101 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:40,760 Speaker 1: is actually doing, you're like, yes, legitimately, anybody could do 102 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:45,000 Speaker 1: what they just did. It's it's akin to hearing somebody's 103 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:48,839 Speaker 1: solo climbing Mount Everest or something like that. It's just 104 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:53,600 Speaker 1: it makes the news literally when somebody forgives in a 105 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 1: in a like a really deep way that the average 106 00:06:56,120 --> 00:07:00,159 Speaker 1: person might not, yeah, like a big time transgression. A 107 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:03,320 Speaker 1: lot of times you'll hear of a courtroom seen where 108 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:06,839 Speaker 1: someone has forgiven the person who like murdered their their 109 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:10,240 Speaker 1: relative or loved one or something, and that man, that 110 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:14,320 Speaker 1: stuff is powerful. You're right every time you see these stories. Uh, 111 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:20,120 Speaker 1: you dug up this one story from Berkeley, the Greater 112 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:24,040 Speaker 1: Good magazine, Uh, science based insights for a meaningful life. 113 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:28,880 Speaker 1: But if you see Berkeley of this woman who was 114 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:33,320 Speaker 1: a nurses aid who hit a guy. She had been drinking, 115 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:36,360 Speaker 1: hit a guy in her car. He went through the windshield, 116 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:40,000 Speaker 1: uh and was stuck there and she was so impaired, 117 00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:44,920 Speaker 1: she didn't realize it for a while. Uh eventually realized 118 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:47,880 Speaker 1: that got out of the car, could not get the 119 00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:50,920 Speaker 1: guy out, who was still alive, mind you, and so 120 00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:54,000 Speaker 1: drove home and parked your car in the garage to 121 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:58,160 Speaker 1: let this guy slowly die in her garage over the 122 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:01,240 Speaker 1: course of a couple of days, and like she sobered up, 123 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:03,000 Speaker 1: would go out and check on him once in a while, 124 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:05,200 Speaker 1: but refused to call for help because she was too 125 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 1: concerned about getting in trouble. So instead she let him die, 126 00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:11,800 Speaker 1: had a couple of friends come help her hide the body, 127 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:15,080 Speaker 1: moved the body, and then actually got found out later 128 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:17,880 Speaker 1: on because four months later she was at a party 129 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:20,800 Speaker 1: and she joked about it to an acquaintance who went 130 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:23,520 Speaker 1: and told the cops, and this woman ended up getting 131 00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:27,080 Speaker 1: fifty years in prison. That's a horrible story. Like, that's 132 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 1: one of the worst things that a human being could 133 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:32,559 Speaker 1: possibly do. There were so many opportunities for this woman 134 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:35,760 Speaker 1: to save this man's life. And by the way, everyone 135 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:38,720 Speaker 1: involved in that court case who had a medical degree 136 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:42,200 Speaker 1: said that had she called the cops, the fire department 137 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:46,000 Speaker 1: taken the guy to the hospital, he almost certainly would 138 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:49,320 Speaker 1: have survived. Those injuries, but given that she didn't for 139 00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:52,280 Speaker 1: days get him medical aid, he finally did succumb to them, 140 00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 1: but he probably would have survived, almost certainly would have survived. 141 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:58,040 Speaker 1: Like what she did was about as horrific as as 142 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:01,280 Speaker 1: what what a person could do. It is so irresponsible 143 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:04,800 Speaker 1: with human life. And she rightfully got a fifty year 144 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:09,640 Speaker 1: prison sentence um for that crime. And yet despite how 145 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:13,400 Speaker 1: horrific that was, what made news just as much as 146 00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:16,720 Speaker 1: that is that a short time later, that man's son, 147 00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:20,960 Speaker 1: the man who was hit and killed, publicly forgave that 148 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:26,199 Speaker 1: woman for for killing his father. Yes, at the sentencing 149 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:30,320 Speaker 1: said quote, there's there's no winners in a case like this. 150 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:34,240 Speaker 1: Just as we all lost Greg, you all will be 151 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 1: losing your daughter to her family. I still want to 152 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:40,920 Speaker 1: extend my forgiveness to Shante Mallard was her name, and 153 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:43,240 Speaker 1: let her know that the Mallard family is in my prayers. 154 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:45,720 Speaker 1: And this is the kind of stuff, like you said, 155 00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:49,560 Speaker 1: that makes the news where I think it hits everybody 156 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:53,360 Speaker 1: because it makes everybody stop for a second and say, 157 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 1: could I do that? Yes? Could I reach that point 158 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:02,400 Speaker 1: of forgiveness? And that's a big, weighty question because there's 159 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:07,480 Speaker 1: all kinds of forgiveness. There's uh, you know, a couple 160 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:12,240 Speaker 1: partners together who getting a fight and someone says they're 161 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:14,640 Speaker 1: sorry for doing a certain thing and they're forgiven or not. 162 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:19,160 Speaker 1: There are uh situations at work where people are forgiven. 163 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:23,600 Speaker 1: There are friends who maybe betray you by like cheating 164 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:28,720 Speaker 1: on on somebody with someone. I had a situation like 165 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:31,960 Speaker 1: that where I had a former friend I felt like 166 00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:36,440 Speaker 1: cheated with my barely ex girlfriend and I spent quite 167 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:39,960 Speaker 1: a few years being upset about that and then forgave him. 168 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:43,400 Speaker 1: And it's a powerful thing. So there's there's like levels, 169 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:46,000 Speaker 1: but when you get to this kind of thing where 170 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:49,560 Speaker 1: someone caused the death of a loved one and then 171 00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 1: even laughed about it, like to be able to forgive 172 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:55,720 Speaker 1: like that is just uh, that's next level. It is. 173 00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:58,280 Speaker 1: It is so much so chuck that a group of 174 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:02,480 Speaker 1: convicted murderers who were serving sentences in prison heard about this, 175 00:11:02,679 --> 00:11:05,400 Speaker 1: and I guess got in touch with one another and 176 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:10,120 Speaker 1: raised funds and and got a ten tho dollars scholarship 177 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:15,319 Speaker 1: together for Brandon Biggs Um to go to college. Um, 178 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:18,320 Speaker 1: the convicted murderer sent the kid to college. Because this 179 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:21,920 Speaker 1: this very generous act of public forgiveness of his own 180 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 1: father's murderer. UM. So yeah, it is. It's an astounding thing. 181 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:31,080 Speaker 1: And yet everything that, like the research that really, like 182 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:35,080 Speaker 1: I said, started to take off in earnest in the nineties, UM, 183 00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:39,240 Speaker 1: has shown us is that we're all perfectly capable of 184 00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:42,000 Speaker 1: doing that. The answer is, yes, yes, you can do that, 185 00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:45,400 Speaker 1: You totally could do that, but that we don't necessarily 186 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:49,760 Speaker 1: fully understand how to. Uh. And yet there's a lot 187 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:53,280 Speaker 1: of evidence also that it's evolutionarily wired into us to 188 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:56,880 Speaker 1: do that. Yeah. And you know, we'll get into religiosity 189 00:11:56,880 --> 00:12:00,439 Speaker 1: of it a bit more in detail later, but all 190 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 1: religions talk a lot about forgiveness. Uh. There's you know, 191 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:07,400 Speaker 1: a pretty famous story in the Bible where Peter said 192 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:09,840 Speaker 1: to Jesus, Lord, how many times shall I forgive my 193 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:13,080 Speaker 1: brother or sister who sends against me? Up to seven times? 194 00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:16,720 Speaker 1: And Jesus said, I tell you, not seven times, but 195 00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:21,840 Speaker 1: seventy times seven. And Peter said, so four times, and 196 00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:25,800 Speaker 1: Jesus said, oh, Peter, always so literal. Yeah, that one's 197 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:28,080 Speaker 1: pretty good. But you know, you can read Hindu, you 198 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:31,760 Speaker 1: can read the Buddhists talk about it, like everyone, every 199 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:35,959 Speaker 1: religion talks about forgiveness is kind of a maybe a 200 00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:40,520 Speaker 1: cornerstone of of the religion in some cases, so much 201 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:44,440 Speaker 1: so that Um, when science started looking into forgiveness and 202 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:49,000 Speaker 1: and and just trying to figure it out. Um, generally 203 00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:52,760 Speaker 1: people is just presumed forgiveness was under the realm and 204 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:55,679 Speaker 1: the domain of religion, that that's where that's where you 205 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:58,319 Speaker 1: went for answers about forgiveness, and science said, oh ho ho, 206 00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:02,319 Speaker 1: we can we can top that. Well, surely we can 207 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:05,080 Speaker 1: beat that four ninety number. And that's what they've said 208 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:10,079 Speaker 1: about doing Yeah, I mean Jesus forgave his crucifiers. It's 209 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:12,199 Speaker 1: like one of the few things Jesus said on the cross. 210 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:16,200 Speaker 1: According to the Bible, they know not what they do, 211 00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:20,559 Speaker 1: like forgive them for they know not what they do. Right. Uh. 212 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:23,320 Speaker 1: And like you said, it's not just Christianity, although Christianity 213 00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:27,760 Speaker 1: gets all the all the accolades for forgiveness, Um, Jainism 214 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:30,240 Speaker 1: is a big one. There's a there's a kind of 215 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:33,320 Speaker 1: a mantra from Jainism that says, I grant forgiveness to 216 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:36,760 Speaker 1: all living beings. The all living beings grant me forgiveness. 217 00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:40,320 Speaker 1: My friendship is with all living beings. My enmity is 218 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:44,600 Speaker 1: totally non existent. And um, that's I mean when you 219 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:48,360 Speaker 1: look at that, especially if you're not a janist, um, 220 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:50,920 Speaker 1: you're you're like, wow, how would you ever? How would 221 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:53,160 Speaker 1: you ever reach that level? And I think that the 222 00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:55,680 Speaker 1: point is like you never reach that level. It's an ideal, 223 00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:58,320 Speaker 1: a goal that you try to achieve, probably on a 224 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:01,120 Speaker 1: daily basis if you're a janist, but it's certainly over 225 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:04,199 Speaker 1: a lifetime, you know. Yeah. And I'd like to read this, 226 00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:07,040 Speaker 1: uh again not to pile on the religious stuff, but 227 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:11,040 Speaker 1: the Hindu and really spoke to me. Uh. This one 228 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:13,200 Speaker 1: part in the middle says what can a wicked person do? 229 00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:16,840 Speaker 1: And to him or into one who carries the saber 230 00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:20,760 Speaker 1: of forgiveness in his hand? And that one really speaks 231 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:24,000 Speaker 1: to me, and that it's the it's a powerful tool 232 00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:28,840 Speaker 1: to forgive, and it's for you as the forgiver. I 233 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:31,240 Speaker 1: think a lot of times people think it's can clear 234 00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:33,240 Speaker 1: the conscious of someone who's done something wrong. I guess 235 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:36,600 Speaker 1: that certainly happens, But to me, it's it's really about 236 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:40,600 Speaker 1: it's a it's a powerful weapon. You have to regain 237 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 1: your own strength as a human. Yes, that seems to 238 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:48,240 Speaker 1: be the bulk of what psychology is is coming up 239 00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:50,920 Speaker 1: with as far as studying forgiveness goes that it's really 240 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:55,320 Speaker 1: the person who is who has been wronged. That's what 241 00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 1: forgiveness is more about. That's the psychological aspect of it. 242 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:03,680 Speaker 1: Like we said, there's um, it's a multidisciplinary investigation, and 243 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:07,080 Speaker 1: so you've got evolutionary biologists whore like, that's really great psychology, 244 00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:09,640 Speaker 1: But we found a different reason for forgiveness and it 245 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:13,440 Speaker 1: doesn't quite fit that mold um and then um, like 246 00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:17,680 Speaker 1: the medical field says, no, it's even better than that. 247 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:22,920 Speaker 1: You can actually like improve your health by genuinely forgiving somebody. 248 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:25,320 Speaker 1: So there's all these different inputs that are coming together 249 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:29,600 Speaker 1: to create this really like complex, contextualized picture of what 250 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:31,880 Speaker 1: forgiveness is and what it does for us and why 251 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:35,240 Speaker 1: we have it. That's right. I think it's a great 252 00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:37,760 Speaker 1: set up. I agree, you want to take a break, 253 00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:40,160 Speaker 1: I might just not come back, and that feels so 254 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:43,560 Speaker 1: good about that. No, we have to finish. We got 255 00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:45,680 Speaker 1: to complete, all right, We'll be back in a minute 256 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:47,600 Speaker 1: to talk about what I think it is. Probably the 257 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 1: most interesting part of this is the evolutionary aspect. Right 258 00:15:50,560 --> 00:16:25,240 Speaker 1: after this, So this was this, Uh this is Libya correct? 259 00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:30,200 Speaker 1: Uh forgiveness was the Dave Ruse joint. Okay, I thought 260 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:32,680 Speaker 1: this was Olivia. So yeah, thanks to Day for this. 261 00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:35,480 Speaker 1: He did a great job with this research. But the 262 00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:38,920 Speaker 1: evolutionary aspect of forgiveness is super interesting to me because 263 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:42,760 Speaker 1: I think that a lot of people assume that it's 264 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:46,720 Speaker 1: what Dave calls a higher virtue, like you know is 265 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:51,360 Speaker 1: took took in the gang were so base as uh, 266 00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:54,240 Speaker 1: you know kind of primitive thinkers, is that they didn't 267 00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:57,640 Speaker 1: have the capacity forgive. They would they would smite somebody 268 00:16:57,680 --> 00:17:00,200 Speaker 1: if if someone punched, took, took in the face, took, 269 00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:03,200 Speaker 1: took punch back, or someone attack took, took, took, took 270 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:06,960 Speaker 1: attack back, maybe even harder. And there is a quite 271 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:10,600 Speaker 1: a bit of evidence that um, they're not mutually exclusive, 272 00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:13,919 Speaker 1: and that that that fighting back and forgiving both have 273 00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:19,200 Speaker 1: a big evolutionary advantage. Yeah. So the big evolutionary advantage 274 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:22,080 Speaker 1: of revenge is if you live in a social group 275 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:25,440 Speaker 1: and somebody takes advantage of you, or they hit you, 276 00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:28,240 Speaker 1: or they steal your food or whatever, if you don't 277 00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:31,919 Speaker 1: do something to right that wrong, you're broadcasting to the 278 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:36,080 Speaker 1: rest of the group that you're open for exploitation, and 279 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:38,240 Speaker 1: that's not good for you. It's also not good for 280 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:41,160 Speaker 1: the chances that you're going to pass along your genes, 281 00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:45,160 Speaker 1: and so under the under the auspices of natural selection, 282 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:47,639 Speaker 1: it makes sense for you to hit that person that 283 00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:50,480 Speaker 1: steals your food or who hits you. And that's revenge, 284 00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:53,720 Speaker 1: and revenge forms that function in a social group. It 285 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:56,760 Speaker 1: says to everybody, signals to the rest of the group, 286 00:17:57,040 --> 00:17:59,240 Speaker 1: you're not to be messed with. This guy tried it, 287 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:02,200 Speaker 1: and look what happened to him. Nobody else should try that. 288 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:05,600 Speaker 1: Go pick on somebody else. And there's actually been studies 289 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:09,439 Speaker 1: that have showed that not just among apes and primates, um, 290 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:14,280 Speaker 1: but among human cultures. Revenge is found pretty much universally. 291 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:17,280 Speaker 1: And I saw a study Chuck that said that, um, 292 00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:20,440 Speaker 1: the mere presence of a person, a third party who's 293 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:23,840 Speaker 1: witnessing an argument increases the chances that the argument is 294 00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:27,760 Speaker 1: going to come to blows because you're signaling to the 295 00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:29,879 Speaker 1: rest of the group, and in this case, just that 296 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:32,400 Speaker 1: third person you are not to be messed with. That 297 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:35,800 Speaker 1: that's the purpose of revenge is to is to broadcast 298 00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:39,280 Speaker 1: that signal. Yeah, I mean, I would say that any 299 00:18:39,359 --> 00:18:43,600 Speaker 1: kind of dumb, drunk bar fight. Half of it is 300 00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:46,359 Speaker 1: the fact that someone didn't want to back down in 301 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:50,679 Speaker 1: front of other people. Sure, you know more than and 302 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:53,920 Speaker 1: that if those two guys were just in a alley somewhere, 303 00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:57,159 Speaker 1: they may just hug it out. Yeah, probably not, but 304 00:18:57,240 --> 00:19:00,760 Speaker 1: you never know that's possible, or they talk it out 305 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:04,560 Speaker 1: at least or disagree that it's dumb and leave. Yes, 306 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:08,360 Speaker 1: but you talked about studies in the animal world. Uh, 307 00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 1: there's a primatologist named Franz Daval who looked at wild 308 00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:19,200 Speaker 1: chimps recorded three and fifty encounters aggressive encounters between these 309 00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:25,240 Speaker 1: chimps and then what happened afterward. And in of these encounters, Uh, 310 00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:27,960 Speaker 1: the chimps would literally kind of kiss and make up 311 00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:31,800 Speaker 1: and touch each other and embrace each other after a fight. 312 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:36,000 Speaker 1: We've seen the same thing in bona bows and great apes. Um, 313 00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:40,040 Speaker 1: there's sheep, there's dolphins, there's goats. Even hyenas have shown 314 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:43,600 Speaker 1: traits of forgiveness. So it's it's not ubiquitous, but it 315 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:46,680 Speaker 1: is all over the animal kingdom. Animals fighting and then 316 00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 1: animals making up with one another, Right, So I mean 317 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:52,600 Speaker 1: the revenge once pretty easy to understand. But then you're like, Okay, 318 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:54,840 Speaker 1: well why why would there be the making up part? 319 00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:57,400 Speaker 1: But that also ties into the fact that these same 320 00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:02,320 Speaker 1: animals are also um living in social tight knit social groups, 321 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:05,159 Speaker 1: and so you have a limited amount of people that 322 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:07,879 Speaker 1: you can possibly have a dispute or a feud with, 323 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:13,280 Speaker 1: and if you're not working together cooperatively in that sense, 324 00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:18,159 Speaker 1: also your your chances of survival are decreased. So what 325 00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:22,600 Speaker 1: makes sense is what's called the valuable relationship hYP hypothesis, 326 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:26,399 Speaker 1: which says, if somebody hits you, you should hit them back, 327 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:28,919 Speaker 1: but then after that you should make up with them. 328 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:31,120 Speaker 1: So you're sending that signal you're not to be messed with. 329 00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:34,879 Speaker 1: But then you're repairing that relationship, that valuable relationship that 330 00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:37,919 Speaker 1: you depend on to help your survival in the in 331 00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:41,919 Speaker 1: the um social group UM, you're appairing it and then you, 332 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:46,159 Speaker 1: guys can move forward. And that that is the how um. 333 00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:50,400 Speaker 1: Revenge and forgiveness are basically two sides of the same coin, 334 00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:52,840 Speaker 1: or at least work in conjunction with one another to 335 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:58,119 Speaker 1: keep the group um functioning at its best. Uh. And 336 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:01,400 Speaker 1: that kind of dovetails with a second part of that 337 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:05,640 Speaker 1: UM thing, which is called negative reciprocity, which is if 338 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:11,359 Speaker 1: someone hits took took and took took goes crazy and 339 00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:14,399 Speaker 1: just starts whaling on the other person who just slapped 340 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:17,720 Speaker 1: him in the face. That's not good either, because everyone's 341 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:21,439 Speaker 1: gonna go, whoa uh, took took. I'm not sure I 342 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:24,280 Speaker 1: trust him now. Um, he has definitely burned that bridge 343 00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:27,600 Speaker 1: forever between him and the other guy. And none of 344 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:31,840 Speaker 1: this is very good. So what they found is negative reciprocity. 345 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:35,120 Speaker 1: If you if someone smites you, you smite them back 346 00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:38,639 Speaker 1: the same amount and then forgive them. Like if someone 347 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:41,680 Speaker 1: takes off their glove and slaps you across the face, 348 00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:45,399 Speaker 1: you don't you don't kick him between the legs and 349 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:48,040 Speaker 1: then wail on their face. You slap them back with 350 00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:50,800 Speaker 1: your glove. And then you talk about forgiving one another, 351 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:54,119 Speaker 1: and everyone sees that you can work with people. You 352 00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:57,000 Speaker 1: can you can stand your ground, but you can also 353 00:21:57,119 --> 00:21:59,879 Speaker 1: forgive and work with people, which means you're valuable to 354 00:21:59,920 --> 00:22:02,600 Speaker 1: the group and you're valuable to have around. Yeah, and 355 00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:04,680 Speaker 1: so kind of tie it into what you were saying 356 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:08,480 Speaker 1: earlier about you know how there's this idea that you know, 357 00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:12,560 Speaker 1: revenge is a base instinct and forgiveness as a higher instinct, 358 00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:16,280 Speaker 1: rather than realizing that they're both pretty basic instincts. For 359 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:20,200 Speaker 1: for um, among the animal kingdom is there's this idea 360 00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:25,000 Speaker 1: that in human society, UM, we have created like these 361 00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:30,399 Speaker 1: social institutions in these contexts so that the individual doesn't 362 00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:34,040 Speaker 1: have to to carry out revenge and then forgiveness, that 363 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:37,240 Speaker 1: they can just focus on forgiveness as long as those 364 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:40,160 Speaker 1: social institutions are doing what they're supposed to do, as 365 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:43,439 Speaker 1: long as there is like a pursuit of justice, and 366 00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:46,720 Speaker 1: you can rely on the idea that the person who 367 00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:49,280 Speaker 1: transgressed against you by killing your father is going to 368 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:52,160 Speaker 1: be caught and punished and sentenced to jail. You don't 369 00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:55,040 Speaker 1: have to worry about revenge. It's being it's being conducted 370 00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:57,840 Speaker 1: for you, and then you, the individual in this well 371 00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 1: functioning society, can just focus on whether you want to 372 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:03,440 Speaker 1: forgive or not. And that that's that kind of higher 373 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:07,800 Speaker 1: and lower echelon. Because in the in the opposite situation 374 00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:10,520 Speaker 1: where there isn't like a good sense of justice, where 375 00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:12,679 Speaker 1: it does seem like if you want justice you have 376 00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:15,040 Speaker 1: to go seek it out yourself, revenge is going to 377 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:19,840 Speaker 1: be much more UM exercise much more frequently than forgiveness 378 00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:23,520 Speaker 1: will Yeah, which says a lot about the United States 379 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:26,800 Speaker 1: these days, you know. Yeah, I mean I'm not trying 380 00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:28,520 Speaker 1: to be cynical even, I mean, that's just sort of 381 00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:30,760 Speaker 1: what we see around us. I think a lot of 382 00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:33,679 Speaker 1: people feel like the sense of justice in this country 383 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:37,199 Speaker 1: is pretty skewed, and that's why you might see the 384 00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:43,119 Speaker 1: increases and things like vigilanism or revenge. And um, I 385 00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:44,720 Speaker 1: don't know what society is you look to do a 386 00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:47,040 Speaker 1: study like that. I'm kind of curious on the ones 387 00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:50,040 Speaker 1: that are very well policed and the justice is um 388 00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:54,360 Speaker 1: sort of fair and equal, but um, I think that's 389 00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:57,200 Speaker 1: one of the problems in the in the States these 390 00:23:57,280 --> 00:24:00,480 Speaker 1: days for sure. Yeah, without getting too far down the 391 00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:03,440 Speaker 1: rabbit hole, but also even you know, it's it's kind 392 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:05,880 Speaker 1: of eye opening to me because I've never really thought 393 00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:10,000 Speaker 1: about the courts and the justice system is um set 394 00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:14,119 Speaker 1: up to help individuals move along? Yeah, it should. You 395 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:16,960 Speaker 1: just think of it as punishment, as a system for punishment, 396 00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:21,639 Speaker 1: not for redemption necessarily, but um, but it's also to 397 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:26,040 Speaker 1: help the victims. I just never saw it that way before. Yeah, 398 00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:28,240 Speaker 1: it's interesting when you talk about that guy in court, 399 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:31,919 Speaker 1: and a lot of times you'll hear the courtroom forgiveness. Um, 400 00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:34,680 Speaker 1: sometimes you will also hear the opposite, and you hear 401 00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:37,359 Speaker 1: the courtroom like, I will never forgive you for what 402 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:40,960 Speaker 1: you did to me, And I think not always, but 403 00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:43,119 Speaker 1: it seems to be a lot of time tied to 404 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:49,600 Speaker 1: whether the transgressor has really acknowledged what they've done and 405 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:53,400 Speaker 1: sought forgiveness and said, that's the worst thing I've ever 406 00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:55,080 Speaker 1: done in my life, and I don't I don't think 407 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:57,960 Speaker 1: you should ever forgive me. Like It's an interesting sort 408 00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:00,719 Speaker 1: of dance that happens there because it's not a one 409 00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:03,400 Speaker 1: to one thing. It's not like every time a bad 410 00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:06,320 Speaker 1: criminal that does something really asked for forgiveness and says 411 00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:08,760 Speaker 1: it was a terrible thing, the other person forgives. So 412 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:11,879 Speaker 1: sometimes the person could laugh it off like this lady 413 00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:14,440 Speaker 1: did and not ask for forgiveness, in any other person 414 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:16,919 Speaker 1: could forgive, which I think goes back to the notion 415 00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:21,359 Speaker 1: that forgiveness comes from the forgiver, right, that that's that 416 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:24,840 Speaker 1: that it's really about the person who's been wrong, that's 417 00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:27,080 Speaker 1: who it's about. And so yeah, now we've reached the 418 00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:31,520 Speaker 1: kind of psychology's domain over the concept of forgiveness, which 419 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:34,960 Speaker 1: is that it's about you, the individual who suffered a 420 00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:39,960 Speaker 1: wrong um releasing the pain and the anger and the 421 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:43,439 Speaker 1: resentment and all the negative feelings that you're experiencing so 422 00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:46,600 Speaker 1: that you can feel better, and that it doesn't matter 423 00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:49,560 Speaker 1: whether the other person is asking for forgiveness, and that 424 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:53,320 Speaker 1: it doesn't even matter if the other person deserves forgiveness 425 00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:58,359 Speaker 1: or not. That genuine forgiveness psychologically speaking, according to some 426 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:01,840 Speaker 1: psychologists will hear that some to agree, but that genuine, 427 00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:06,639 Speaker 1: true forgiveness is unconditional, that you you forgive the person 428 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:09,520 Speaker 1: whether they deserve it or not. Yeah, And this is 429 00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:13,560 Speaker 1: where the language to me is a little I could 430 00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:17,399 Speaker 1: see people debating this because it is forgiveness in a way, 431 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:21,320 Speaker 1: but to me, it's almost more of just a letting go. Yeah, 432 00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:24,840 Speaker 1: I agree with you, of an anger, So it's not 433 00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:28,920 Speaker 1: it's so it's so tricky with the definition because when 434 00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:32,760 Speaker 1: you think of forgiveness, you think I'm saying and it's 435 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:34,720 Speaker 1: really not what it is. What you're not saying is 436 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:37,639 Speaker 1: it's okay, what you did, okay, So yeah, you know 437 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:39,960 Speaker 1: what I mean. That's not what That's not a key 438 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:43,840 Speaker 1: component of forgiveness. No, No, it's not your that's and 439 00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:46,640 Speaker 1: that's a very confusing thing for a lot of people too. 440 00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:50,200 Speaker 1: Is that the idea that if you forgive somebody, you're 441 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:53,399 Speaker 1: you're you're condoning their behavior. You're saying it's okay what 442 00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:57,720 Speaker 1: they do. That's not the point of forgiveness, um from 443 00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:01,000 Speaker 1: from what psychologists who researched this are coming up with. 444 00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:03,959 Speaker 1: Their saying, you know, what you're doing when you forgive 445 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:06,000 Speaker 1: somebody is to say, I know what you did, you 446 00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:09,920 Speaker 1: wronged me. I can live with that. It doesn't make 447 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:12,840 Speaker 1: it any better. Yeah, it doesn't make it any better. 448 00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:16,480 Speaker 1: It doesn't excuse what you did, and it does it 449 00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:21,240 Speaker 1: certainly doesn't excuse future repeated um instances of what you 450 00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:23,840 Speaker 1: just did. But it's saying like, I'm willing to let 451 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:26,520 Speaker 1: go of the pain I have associated with this act 452 00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:29,080 Speaker 1: you you you did against me, that you this wrong, 453 00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:32,680 Speaker 1: and I'm going to move forward with my life and 454 00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:35,480 Speaker 1: in doing that, I'm willing to let you move forward 455 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:38,840 Speaker 1: as well. Well. Or I think sometimes in a case 456 00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:41,879 Speaker 1: like this, that kind of forgiveness can make the transgressor 457 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:46,439 Speaker 1: suffer worse sometimes, Yeah, just out of guilt. Yeah, and 458 00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:50,199 Speaker 1: they want to be admonished and hated as part of 459 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:54,320 Speaker 1: a punishment. But you know it's t s, you know, 460 00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:57,919 Speaker 1: because again, forgiveness is not for you, it's for the person. 461 00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:01,280 Speaker 1: Dave even makes a great point the person being forgiven 462 00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:05,879 Speaker 1: uh is secondary or even unnecessary to the process. And 463 00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:10,040 Speaker 1: that's sort of the key. You don't even have to 464 00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:13,280 Speaker 1: tell that person necessarily. We'll we'll get to later some 465 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:15,919 Speaker 1: kind of like how to forgive. Some people say that 466 00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:20,000 Speaker 1: you should tell someone out loud, like literally tell someone, 467 00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:22,480 Speaker 1: But you don't necessarily have to tell that person if 468 00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:25,399 Speaker 1: it's a situation like this, or even if it's like 469 00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:28,240 Speaker 1: a close personal friend like I think usually you do 470 00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:30,159 Speaker 1: when it's someone you know, because that's a part of 471 00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:33,160 Speaker 1: communicating with one another in a healthy way. But if 472 00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:36,639 Speaker 1: it's the person who who killed your family, uh, you 473 00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:38,920 Speaker 1: don't have to tell them to forgive them, and you 474 00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:44,280 Speaker 1: can still forgive them. Yes, So some psychologists define forgiveness, 475 00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:48,960 Speaker 1: like a full forgiveness as including you actually seeking out 476 00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:52,400 Speaker 1: contact with that person, and that if you forgive them 477 00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:55,240 Speaker 1: but don't tell them, or you still avoid them afterward, 478 00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:57,240 Speaker 1: where it's like, hey, I forgive you, but good luck 479 00:28:57,280 --> 00:28:58,920 Speaker 1: with the rest of your life, you're not in my 480 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:03,400 Speaker 1: life anymore. That to to some psychologists, not all. Some 481 00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:06,760 Speaker 1: psychologists say that's that's not genuine forgiveness. That's akin to 482 00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:08,760 Speaker 1: like what you were saying, which is letting go of 483 00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:12,000 Speaker 1: anger and moving on, but not really actually forgiving. I 484 00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:14,960 Speaker 1: still say it's forgiving. I'm not one of the psychologists. Sure, 485 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:17,960 Speaker 1: and it's it's very much debated, for sure. But then 486 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:21,560 Speaker 1: that also leads to another point too that if you 487 00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:25,480 Speaker 1: forgive somebody, it doesn't necessarily mean you forget, and and 488 00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:28,720 Speaker 1: that's not part and parcel to it. Forgiving doesn't mean forgetting. 489 00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:32,520 Speaker 1: You can forget. Um, I'm actually really good at that 490 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:35,840 Speaker 1: kind of thing. Where like I I forgive because it 491 00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:39,680 Speaker 1: just unless it was a really huge wrong, it just 492 00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:42,760 Speaker 1: kind of phase from my memory fairly easily. And I 493 00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:45,880 Speaker 1: don't I'm not, I don't dwell on it. Um. So 494 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:48,719 Speaker 1: so it can they can go hand in hand. But 495 00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:51,760 Speaker 1: if you've been deeply wrong by somebody where you're actually 496 00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:54,240 Speaker 1: going through the process of forgiving, which we'll talk about, 497 00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:57,960 Speaker 1: and it is a it's a deliberate step that you're 498 00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:01,200 Speaker 1: taking towards finding peace with your self in your life again, 499 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,760 Speaker 1: then um, you know very well what that wrong was, 500 00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:07,360 Speaker 1: and you're not going to forget it, but eventually the 501 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:11,160 Speaker 1: aim is that you will have divorced the emotional attachment 502 00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:14,160 Speaker 1: from that memory too, of that wrong, to where it 503 00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:17,120 Speaker 1: becomes akin to like a movie you saw once or 504 00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:20,160 Speaker 1: trip you took once, Like it's not it's just a 505 00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:22,920 Speaker 1: thing that happened in your life, rather than this, this 506 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:28,320 Speaker 1: this crisis that is sucking up your attention and emotions. Yeah, 507 00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:33,080 Speaker 1: I really like this definition from Fred Luskin, who is 508 00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:38,520 Speaker 1: a psychologist and forgiveness expert for what It's worth, director 509 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:44,080 Speaker 1: of the Stanford University Forgiveness Projects. And Fred's definition is 510 00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:47,360 Speaker 1: to forgive is to give up all hope for a 511 00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:51,400 Speaker 1: better past. And that's that really lays it out there 512 00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:55,320 Speaker 1: in this in a very practical sense, that what what 513 00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:58,040 Speaker 1: has happened has happened. You may not be there yet 514 00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:02,040 Speaker 1: in your journey to forgiveness or or the letting go, 515 00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:06,360 Speaker 1: but you cannot change what happened, no matter how angry 516 00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 1: you are, or how much you want someone to pay 517 00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:10,880 Speaker 1: for it or suffer, or how much revenge you want. 518 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:15,760 Speaker 1: So there is no better past. That's impossible. So giving 519 00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:18,240 Speaker 1: up hope for a better past it's sort of oblique definition, 520 00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:22,520 Speaker 1: but one that I think is pretty instructive. Yeah, but 521 00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:26,280 Speaker 1: it's also a realistic definition too if you think about it. 522 00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:28,320 Speaker 1: Because you can't change the past one way or another. 523 00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:32,600 Speaker 1: You can only alter how you let the past continue 524 00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:35,040 Speaker 1: to affect you or not. And the the other thing 525 00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:37,000 Speaker 1: I really want to say here right now, because it 526 00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:40,200 Speaker 1: can be confusing for me to um when I when 527 00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:42,560 Speaker 1: I think about forgiveness and anger and stuff like that 528 00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:46,720 Speaker 1: is like, this is not No one is talking about 529 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:51,080 Speaker 1: a something like throwing a switch or like, rather than 530 00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:55,680 Speaker 1: feeling anger, you feel forgiveness. That's actually counterproductive, as we'll see. 531 00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:58,480 Speaker 1: Like you you like, you can't replace anger with forgiveness. 532 00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:01,760 Speaker 1: Forgiveness is meant to um after anger because you use 533 00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:05,520 Speaker 1: anger or hurt or resentment or whatever. Your version of 534 00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:09,800 Speaker 1: that is um to to um to protecting guard your 535 00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:13,240 Speaker 1: own boundaries. So it's unnatural for you to not have 536 00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:18,560 Speaker 1: some sort of negative emotion or negative response to being wronged. 537 00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:23,120 Speaker 1: But um you don't want to replace that or try 538 00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:27,240 Speaker 1: to replace it with forgiveness because you may accidentally trip 539 00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:30,880 Speaker 1: up the process and you you're not really legitimately feeling forgiveness. 540 00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:34,560 Speaker 1: You're basically just setting yourself up to be wronged again. Yeah. 541 00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:38,240 Speaker 1: My deal personally is, uh, Emily has always talks about 542 00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:43,080 Speaker 1: what a forgiving person I am because I really crave, 543 00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:47,480 Speaker 1: uh to forgive. I don't know, I was about to 544 00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:50,880 Speaker 1: say crave forgiveness. I crave forgiving. I guess it sounds funny, 545 00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:54,600 Speaker 1: but I just, uh, all all I need is for 546 00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:58,680 Speaker 1: someone to say they're sorry for something and then it's done. 547 00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:01,480 Speaker 1: Uh nine times out of ten that's done for me. 548 00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:04,960 Speaker 1: And as far as forgetting, like, I'm a pretty good 549 00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:08,400 Speaker 1: forget or too. I don't know about like literally forgetting something. 550 00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:12,080 Speaker 1: But I definitely look back on a lot of relationships, 551 00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:15,760 Speaker 1: especially with like ex girlfriends that were terrible, and go, 552 00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:18,840 Speaker 1: what was so bad in there? In that relationship? We 553 00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:21,840 Speaker 1: were pretty good? Right? Sure, No, we weren't pretty good 554 00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:26,320 Speaker 1: at all. I just have rose colored glasses. And I 555 00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:30,160 Speaker 1: think you and I are both like as as podcasting 556 00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:33,120 Speaker 1: partners and family and team good about when we had 557 00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:36,240 Speaker 1: little dust ups forgiving one another, if the other person 558 00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:38,120 Speaker 1: like says they're sorry, like you and I both get 559 00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:42,560 Speaker 1: over that stuff pretty quickly, yeah, which is it's very 560 00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:46,160 Speaker 1: key though, you know, like, oh yeah, you can't forgiveness 561 00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:47,920 Speaker 1: is like from the heart if you really, if you're 562 00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:51,480 Speaker 1: hanging onto something, then you're not done with it yet. No, 563 00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:55,000 Speaker 1: but so and that's so important, Chuck. That's important for 564 00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:58,520 Speaker 1: the individual to remember that if you if you are 565 00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:02,360 Speaker 1: unable to forgive, that me that you're you're still hanging 566 00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:05,280 Speaker 1: onto it. That doesn't mean you'll never forgive. And that 567 00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:07,320 Speaker 1: also doesn't mean you have to hurry up and forgive. 568 00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:09,799 Speaker 1: It means you're still in the process of reaching the 569 00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:13,120 Speaker 1: point where you can forgive. It's a deliberate choice. From 570 00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:15,960 Speaker 1: everything I've seen in the research, you're making a deliberate 571 00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:19,000 Speaker 1: choice to forgive somebody. But it's not throwing a switch. 572 00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:21,719 Speaker 1: It's part of a process. And during that process, while 573 00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:24,359 Speaker 1: you're on the road to forgiving the person, you're still 574 00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:26,239 Speaker 1: gonna be kind of angry at them. Maybe not the 575 00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:27,880 Speaker 1: whole time, but every once in a while it might 576 00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:30,719 Speaker 1: hit you before you've fully forgiven them, and then you're 577 00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:33,160 Speaker 1: gonna be mad about it all over again. That's okay, 578 00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:36,600 Speaker 1: that's normal, that's natural. You can't really rush it. You can, 579 00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:39,200 Speaker 1: but it's gonna be detrimental. What you want to do 580 00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:40,839 Speaker 1: is just kind of let it play out. And have 581 00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:43,799 Speaker 1: faith that if you're on the path of forgiveness, you'll 582 00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:47,080 Speaker 1: ultimately will forgive the person and things will be good again. Yeah, 583 00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:50,759 Speaker 1: and depending on your your life and your childhood, like 584 00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:54,040 Speaker 1: you probably have an inclination or an instinct to forgive 585 00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:56,880 Speaker 1: or not based on what you saw, what was modeled there. 586 00:34:57,080 --> 00:35:00,320 Speaker 1: There's both nature and nurture involved, But I think people 587 00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:05,120 Speaker 1: generally have an instinct of revenge or forgiveness, and to 588 00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:08,080 Speaker 1: do one of the other that is against that instinct 589 00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:11,520 Speaker 1: requires great effort, especially in the case of forgiveness, because 590 00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:13,719 Speaker 1: you may not be inclined to be a forgive at all. 591 00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:16,600 Speaker 1: That doesn't mean something's wrong with you. That just means 592 00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:19,680 Speaker 1: that's probably what you saw growing up, or maybe something 593 00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:21,680 Speaker 1: happened to you when you were young that makes it 594 00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:25,080 Speaker 1: harder for you. But it's still possible to get there. 595 00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:28,080 Speaker 1: It just might be tougher. Well. What's neat is another 596 00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:30,479 Speaker 1: thing that the field of psychology is telling us about 597 00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:32,879 Speaker 1: forgiveness is that it can be taught. You can learn 598 00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:35,480 Speaker 1: to forgive. Even if you were raised in an unforgiving 599 00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:40,160 Speaker 1: um uh environment where you never learned how to do that, 600 00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:43,279 Speaker 1: you can learn how to do it um and Uh, 601 00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:45,879 Speaker 1: I say, we kind of jumped to those um too, 602 00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:50,000 Speaker 1: how to forgive um before we go into physical health, 603 00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:52,360 Speaker 1: because I feel like we're kind of there right now. Yeah, well, 604 00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:55,000 Speaker 1: let's take a break. Okay, let's take our final break, 605 00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:57,319 Speaker 1: and uh we'll talk about that when you get back, 606 00:35:57,360 --> 00:35:59,799 Speaker 1: as well as this one sort of interesting study I'd 607 00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:31,799 Speaker 1: like to hit real quick too. Okay, learn stuff with Joshua. 608 00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:37,040 Speaker 1: All right, So there's this study that Dave dug up 609 00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:40,960 Speaker 1: that I thought was interesting. I think it's flawed. But 610 00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:45,200 Speaker 1: in social psychology, they took forty six people. They invited 611 00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:48,719 Speaker 1: them into two groups. One wrote about a time when 612 00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:52,200 Speaker 1: they had something, uh, some wrong committed against them, but 613 00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:54,799 Speaker 1: they forgave. The other wrote about a time when they 614 00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:57,600 Speaker 1: had something wrong committed against them, but they did not forgive. 615 00:36:58,239 --> 00:36:59,880 Speaker 1: And then they told those people to stay in at 616 00:36:59,920 --> 00:37:02,719 Speaker 1: the bottom of a hill to estimate how steep it was, 617 00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:06,120 Speaker 1: and also in a separate part of the city to 618 00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:10,200 Speaker 1: jump as high as they could. The unforgiving group guests 619 00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:13,359 Speaker 1: that the incline was five degrees steeper on average than 620 00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:20,000 Speaker 1: the forgiving, and the forgivers jumped seven centimeters higher. So 621 00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:24,440 Speaker 1: the takeaway here is is you literally it's more difficult 622 00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:28,240 Speaker 1: for you. You see the world as being more difficult 623 00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:30,759 Speaker 1: and steeper, and you can't jump as high and you 624 00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:34,560 Speaker 1: can't accomplish as much if you're holding onto that. All 625 00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:37,520 Speaker 1: kinds of red flags here to study, especially when it 626 00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:41,040 Speaker 1: comes to the jumping part. But uh, I thought it 627 00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:43,839 Speaker 1: was interesting the guessing the incline of the hill. There 628 00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:46,279 Speaker 1: may be something to that. Well, yeah, and I mean 629 00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:49,800 Speaker 1: it is backed up chucked by the physical the physiological 630 00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:55,480 Speaker 1: UM studies of how UM, how stress and anger affect you, 631 00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:58,839 Speaker 1: and how releasing those can actually help you. UM. There's 632 00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:01,600 Speaker 1: a lot of research that shows that you can suffer 633 00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:04,839 Speaker 1: from chronic stress when you're angry all the time, and 634 00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:07,440 Speaker 1: that that's tied to everything from high blood pressure to 635 00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:13,479 Speaker 1: UM diabetes to poor cardiovascular outcomes. UM, just a whole 636 00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:16,520 Speaker 1: host of chronic conditions can be traced back to chronic stress, 637 00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:19,400 Speaker 1: and chronic stress can be traced back to chronic anger. 638 00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:23,440 Speaker 1: And what they've what they're discovering is that forgiveness can 639 00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:27,360 Speaker 1: actually undo that can actually reverse that. There was a 640 00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:31,960 Speaker 1: study that UM that that rated people based on the 641 00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:35,359 Speaker 1: life stresses they had had, and they apparently recruited UM 642 00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:37,960 Speaker 1: participants for the study who had been through a lot 643 00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:40,760 Speaker 1: of stress, so much so that they were basically always 644 00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:44,440 Speaker 1: chronically stressed because they have had so many terrible events 645 00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:48,440 Speaker 1: in their life. And there was one group that actually, 646 00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:52,719 Speaker 1: um did not have poor health compared to the rest 647 00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:55,080 Speaker 1: of the group. And they found that when they gave 648 00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:58,839 Speaker 1: them a test of forgiveness of how how forgiving they 649 00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:03,080 Speaker 1: were generally, they've on that this subset was actually overall 650 00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:06,880 Speaker 1: a very forgiving group and that that somehow was battling 651 00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:10,120 Speaker 1: back the chronic stress or the effects of chronic stress 652 00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:13,200 Speaker 1: on their health in life. Yeah, I mean, I think 653 00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:17,440 Speaker 1: that makes complete sense. If you are someone who really 654 00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:21,040 Speaker 1: has a problem with forgiving and just holds on to 655 00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:25,960 Speaker 1: these deep, deep resentments against people, usually against people very 656 00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:30,319 Speaker 1: close to you in your family, even um that that 657 00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:34,120 Speaker 1: just that can't be good for you physically. I've seen 658 00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:36,239 Speaker 1: it happen. I don't want to get too personal, but 659 00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:39,839 Speaker 1: there are people in my family who haven't spoken for 660 00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:45,560 Speaker 1: twenty plus years over dumb stuff that it's like, you 661 00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:51,239 Speaker 1: see that kind of like stubbornness coupled with resentment, and 662 00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:54,440 Speaker 1: it's just hand that's just no way to live, Yeah, 663 00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:58,359 Speaker 1: no way to live. Yeah, so there was another one 664 00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:03,640 Speaker 1: that another study that Dave turned up that UM shows 665 00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:06,920 Speaker 1: that even like in a very short term UH, thinking 666 00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:12,920 Speaker 1: about holding a grudge can actually affect you physiologically by 667 00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:16,200 Speaker 1: activating your sympathetic nervous system, as they put the battle 668 00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:21,080 Speaker 1: or scitattle impulse. And they found that this UM these 669 00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:24,560 Speaker 1: they cut these two groups into um or. They cut 670 00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:27,280 Speaker 1: the participants in the two groups. All of the people 671 00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:29,600 Speaker 1: had to think about some time when they were deeply 672 00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:32,240 Speaker 1: wronged in the past, and then one group was taken 673 00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:34,840 Speaker 1: through an exercise where they learned to forgive the person. 674 00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:38,799 Speaker 1: The other group this is so mean, was encouraged to 675 00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:41,560 Speaker 1: hold the grudge. They were basically taught they went through 676 00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:43,920 Speaker 1: an exercise to hold a grudge and be angry in 677 00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:47,799 Speaker 1: resentment or resentful about that. And they found that the 678 00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:50,880 Speaker 1: people who were taught to hold the grudge had elevated 679 00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:54,720 Speaker 1: skin conductance, which meant their nervous system was aroused, higher 680 00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:58,320 Speaker 1: arterial blood pressure not good UM. They also had muscle 681 00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:00,520 Speaker 1: tension in the brow area you know when your brows 682 00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:03,560 Speaker 1: furrowed when you're stressed out or match, and that they 683 00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:06,960 Speaker 1: they the symptoms even after they went through an exercise 684 00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:10,839 Speaker 1: to basically de escalate everything. The symptoms persisted, and this 685 00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:13,920 Speaker 1: was just an exercise where you were just thinking about 686 00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:17,359 Speaker 1: being wronged and then holding a grudge about just just 687 00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:19,840 Speaker 1: like probably this is like an hour out of their lives. 688 00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:23,520 Speaker 1: And that's that was the effects. That was the findings 689 00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:27,280 Speaker 1: of that. So it's pretty clear that that yes, anger 690 00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:31,760 Speaker 1: can can affect you, um physically, and what they haven't 691 00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:34,400 Speaker 1: we don't have the reams of data that we have 692 00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:37,680 Speaker 1: supporting it like we do that anger hurts you physically, 693 00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:41,920 Speaker 1: But there's there seems to be the opposite of that 694 00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:45,520 Speaker 1: holds true, which is releasing that anger, which is forgiveness 695 00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:48,479 Speaker 1: and whatever form it takes can actually improve your health 696 00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:52,040 Speaker 1: as well. Right earlier in the episode, we were talking 697 00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:56,239 Speaker 1: about religion. All religions talk extensively about forgiveness and when 698 00:41:56,239 --> 00:42:01,239 Speaker 1: they do studies these days, usually like questionnaires and stuff. Um. 699 00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:03,520 Speaker 1: Depending on the studies you look at, you would think 700 00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:07,440 Speaker 1: religiosity does play a role and that people who describe 701 00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:13,399 Speaker 1: themselves as religious, um supposedly in some studies are two 702 00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:15,800 Speaker 1: and a half times more likely to say that others 703 00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:19,120 Speaker 1: should be forgiven unconditionally. But I know you found some 704 00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:23,520 Speaker 1: studies that found that religiosity does not play as big 705 00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:25,359 Speaker 1: a role as a lot of people think it does, 706 00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:30,520 Speaker 1: and that, uh, sometimes religious people may be more inclined 707 00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:34,520 Speaker 1: to say that they are forgiving when they aren't because 708 00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:37,880 Speaker 1: it's the right thing to do. Yeah. The study found 709 00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:41,239 Speaker 1: that when when you ask basically when you survey them, 710 00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:45,520 Speaker 1: people who are religious tend to come off as more forgiving. 711 00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:48,080 Speaker 1: They self report is forgiving, But then if you ask 712 00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:51,840 Speaker 1: them other certain questions, UM, I guess in the in 713 00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:55,240 Speaker 1: real world situations, they're no more forgiving than other people. 714 00:42:55,640 --> 00:42:58,480 Speaker 1: But so that would be an interpretation that they they 715 00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:01,240 Speaker 1: think they're more forgiving or tell people they're more forgiving 716 00:43:01,239 --> 00:43:04,680 Speaker 1: than they actually are. But there's a um another way 717 00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:06,080 Speaker 1: to look at it too. And they went back and 718 00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:10,040 Speaker 1: followed up on that study and they found that over 719 00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:14,719 Speaker 1: a longer term, people who are religious actually do tend 720 00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:18,239 Speaker 1: to be more forgiving in their lives. It wasn't like 721 00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:20,279 Speaker 1: the most set in stone study, but I found it 722 00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:24,160 Speaker 1: interesting that they were They had harder The religious people 723 00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:28,520 Speaker 1: in this study, um had more difficulty in um relating 724 00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:32,239 Speaker 1: grudges that they're carrying around compared to the control group 725 00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:37,560 Speaker 1: of people who weren't religious. Yeah, makes sense. There was 726 00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:41,280 Speaker 1: some redemption there. Yeah. Uh. As far as how to forgive, 727 00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:44,239 Speaker 1: like we said, hopefully we've gotten it through that, it's 728 00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:48,000 Speaker 1: something you can learn if you are not an inherent forgiver, 729 00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:52,440 Speaker 1: you can learn how to through practice. Uh. There's a 730 00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:59,839 Speaker 1: psychologist named Worthington, Worthington, Edward Everett Everett Worthington. There should 731 00:43:59,880 --> 00:44:03,640 Speaker 1: be a third after that if you totally should be uh. 732 00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:07,440 Speaker 1: And Worthington has developed the reach model, which will go 733 00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:12,560 Speaker 1: through it's um. It's an acronym. Of course. Recall is 734 00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:16,560 Speaker 1: the first step, and that's to really recall the event 735 00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:20,080 Speaker 1: in detail, but in that's sort of an objective way 736 00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:22,440 Speaker 1: and not necessarily something that was done to you, but 737 00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:24,879 Speaker 1: just to look at the detail of it and try 738 00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:28,360 Speaker 1: not to judge yourself or the other person, just simply 739 00:44:28,719 --> 00:44:31,120 Speaker 1: bring that back to your mind. Yeah. And the point 740 00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:33,160 Speaker 1: of that is to feel the feelings like we have. 741 00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:35,399 Speaker 1: We humans have such a tendency to try to get 742 00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:40,600 Speaker 1: away from negative feelings and run towards positive feelings. And UM, 743 00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:43,440 Speaker 1: I think Worthington's position is that we have to feel 744 00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:46,240 Speaker 1: whatever feelings are associated with it, and that's a huge 745 00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:48,480 Speaker 1: part of it. That's we have to go through that 746 00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:51,760 Speaker 1: experience as part of the recall. Right, the E stands 747 00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:55,439 Speaker 1: for empathy. UM. This is one that is I don't 748 00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:58,799 Speaker 1: know about controversial, but it's it's not everyone agrees at 749 00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:00,960 Speaker 1: all and whether or not you need to actually have 750 00:45:01,040 --> 00:45:05,800 Speaker 1: empathy to forgive, um, but empathy can certainly help you forgive. 751 00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:12,600 Speaker 1: If someone has broken into your home and stolen from you, Uh, 752 00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:14,960 Speaker 1: it might help to forgive them to empathize and think 753 00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:17,680 Speaker 1: about where they may be in their life to feel 754 00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:20,279 Speaker 1: like they needed to do something like that, Uh, is 755 00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:23,879 Speaker 1: one example. Yeah. And he points out also like you're 756 00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:27,640 Speaker 1: not excusing their behavior, but you're just thinking about something 757 00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:31,279 Speaker 1: beyond just a villain or criminal or person who wronged you. 758 00:45:31,360 --> 00:45:34,359 Speaker 1: For sure. And actually we should say Everett Worthington had 759 00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:36,480 Speaker 1: to put his money where his mouth was because his 760 00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:40,160 Speaker 1: mother UM was actually murdered by a burglar. I think back, 761 00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:45,760 Speaker 1: and he put himself through this UM the reached method, 762 00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:47,839 Speaker 1: and he said he came out on the other side 763 00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:50,319 Speaker 1: better off than he had been. And I think he 764 00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:53,760 Speaker 1: was already doing this. Right. That didn't inspire his career, 765 00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:56,040 Speaker 1: did it? No? No, I think he was already doing it. 766 00:45:56,120 --> 00:46:01,480 Speaker 1: Concidentally the ironies. So the A stands for altruistic gift. 767 00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:04,359 Speaker 1: And the point of this is that you realize that 768 00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:11,040 Speaker 1: you are actually um giving a gift by forgiving somebody, 769 00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:13,440 Speaker 1: even I guess if you don't tell them, even if 770 00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:16,040 Speaker 1: you don't necessarily empathize with them. But the way you 771 00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:19,160 Speaker 1: do this, the way you UM you you recognize that 772 00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:21,960 Speaker 1: your forgiveness is an altruistic gift is to think about 773 00:46:21,960 --> 00:46:24,640 Speaker 1: times where you've wronged somebody and that they've been forgiven 774 00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:29,520 Speaker 1: or forgiving, and and even if you didn't necessarily deserve it, 775 00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:31,759 Speaker 1: and what a gift that that was, you're kind of 776 00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:35,400 Speaker 1: bringing it to mind, which I think is really suspiciously 777 00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:38,560 Speaker 1: kind of tied in with empathizing if you ask me, yeah, 778 00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:41,280 Speaker 1: I mean he was trying to make the word reach sure, 779 00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:44,439 Speaker 1: uh commit to This is what I mentioned earlier about 780 00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:47,000 Speaker 1: telling someone else doesn't necessarily have to be the person 781 00:46:47,040 --> 00:46:50,560 Speaker 1: you're forgiving, although that could help, uh if you want 782 00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:53,359 Speaker 1: to go that route. But telling someone else, at least 783 00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:56,320 Speaker 1: in Worthington's mind, makes it, gives it a degree of 784 00:46:56,360 --> 00:47:00,480 Speaker 1: permanence and basically makes it part of your story, like 785 00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:05,120 Speaker 1: you're changing the story essentially exactly and then hold and 786 00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:08,600 Speaker 1: this is very important too that we said earlier you 787 00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:11,200 Speaker 1: you can forgive, and it doesn't necessarily mean you're going 788 00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:14,600 Speaker 1: to forget. So when you do remember that kind of thing, 789 00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:16,880 Speaker 1: you're still going through the process and you're still angered 790 00:47:16,920 --> 00:47:19,120 Speaker 1: by you're still hurt by it, but you're on the 791 00:47:19,120 --> 00:47:21,319 Speaker 1: path of forgiveness. You have to hold on to the 792 00:47:21,600 --> 00:47:25,200 Speaker 1: to the idea that you're you're working on forgiving them. 793 00:47:25,239 --> 00:47:27,440 Speaker 1: That it's not an instantaneous thing. So you have to 794 00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:29,799 Speaker 1: hold the fact that you're forgiving them even in the 795 00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:32,600 Speaker 1: face of, you know, being triggered by or flooded by 796 00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:36,000 Speaker 1: this again when you think about the memory of it. Right. 797 00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:39,759 Speaker 1: Luskin has a nine step process, which we weren't we're 798 00:47:39,800 --> 00:47:43,000 Speaker 1: not gonna really get into, but step eight is interesting. Uh, 799 00:47:43,040 --> 00:47:44,840 Speaker 1: just like R. E. M. Says living well is the 800 00:47:44,880 --> 00:47:47,600 Speaker 1: best revenge, is the sort of the nuts and bolts 801 00:47:47,600 --> 00:47:50,919 Speaker 1: of number eight, and uh, there's something to be said 802 00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:53,600 Speaker 1: for that, but I think it also makes it much 803 00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:56,440 Speaker 1: harder to forgive and move on if you're not able 804 00:47:56,480 --> 00:47:59,120 Speaker 1: to live well. And that doesn't mean you know, money 805 00:47:59,120 --> 00:48:01,920 Speaker 1: and riches and stuff that that means just living a 806 00:48:02,719 --> 00:48:05,400 Speaker 1: full life. But if you're not able to forgive and 807 00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:07,720 Speaker 1: get past that. I mean, there are plenty of movies 808 00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:10,799 Speaker 1: of people that have been have some awful thing from 809 00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:13,799 Speaker 1: their past that they're just wallowing in all these years later, 810 00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:16,080 Speaker 1: and that's the central plot of the film. You know, 811 00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:22,959 Speaker 1: she devil Hoosiers. That's right, but that's I mean, that's 812 00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:26,120 Speaker 1: the that's the point of forgiveness is too, is to 813 00:48:26,280 --> 00:48:30,640 Speaker 1: free yourself, to find peace within yourself. And yes, it's 814 00:48:30,640 --> 00:48:34,000 Speaker 1: great for the person who wronged you if you overtly 815 00:48:34,080 --> 00:48:36,680 Speaker 1: forgive them and let them know, but you don't have to. 816 00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:39,880 Speaker 1: And then also, Chuck, there's a whole school thought in 817 00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:43,319 Speaker 1: psychology that says, not only do you not have to 818 00:48:43,320 --> 00:48:46,279 Speaker 1: tell the person that you're forgiving them, you don't have 819 00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:50,359 Speaker 1: to forgive them at all, and that there's this this 820 00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:55,239 Speaker 1: whole almost kind of um, not culti, but really kind 821 00:48:55,239 --> 00:48:59,560 Speaker 1: of dogmatic idea that if you don't follow these steps 822 00:48:59,600 --> 00:49:03,320 Speaker 1: and you don't, like, genuinely fully forgive somebody, you really 823 00:49:03,360 --> 00:49:06,240 Speaker 1: haven't worked out of the process. There's something wrong with you. 824 00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:09,719 Speaker 1: Maybe you're an unforgiving person and that makes you tacky. 825 00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:13,480 Speaker 1: That's what psychologists call it um. And there's a whole 826 00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:15,919 Speaker 1: group of psychologists say no, no, no, there's a there's 827 00:49:16,040 --> 00:49:18,799 Speaker 1: way more to this process than just you know, nine 828 00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:22,600 Speaker 1: steps or the reach method like there, there's it's more 829 00:49:22,719 --> 00:49:27,400 Speaker 1: nuanced than that, and that you can be a fully functioning, 830 00:49:28,040 --> 00:49:31,320 Speaker 1: emotionally developed person who says, you know what, I don't 831 00:49:31,320 --> 00:49:34,719 Speaker 1: forgive you. I may never forgive you, but I'm still 832 00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:37,279 Speaker 1: going on with my life. And if the point of 833 00:49:37,320 --> 00:49:40,839 Speaker 1: forgiveness is to achieve peace in yourself, If you can 834 00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:44,600 Speaker 1: achieve peace in yourself and you do it without forgiving 835 00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:47,200 Speaker 1: somebody because you don't want to forgive them or you 836 00:49:47,239 --> 00:49:50,680 Speaker 1: don't feel like you should forgive them, then that's okay too. 837 00:49:50,719 --> 00:49:54,680 Speaker 1: As long as you're you're getting inner peace, that's the point. Yeah, 838 00:49:54,719 --> 00:49:57,560 Speaker 1: And there there's a school of thought saying that in 839 00:49:57,680 --> 00:50:02,120 Speaker 1: cases where like it's harm has been committed to you, 840 00:50:02,239 --> 00:50:05,880 Speaker 1: that could happen again. Uh, you may be more likely 841 00:50:06,000 --> 00:50:09,040 Speaker 1: to have that harm committed to you again if you 842 00:50:09,120 --> 00:50:13,280 Speaker 1: do forgive too much. Yeah, there is research about spousal 843 00:50:13,320 --> 00:50:16,080 Speaker 1: abuse that when you are too or when you're quick 844 00:50:16,080 --> 00:50:19,800 Speaker 1: to forgive the abuser, then you are victimized more regularly 845 00:50:19,880 --> 00:50:23,359 Speaker 1: than spouses who aren't. Is forgiving and uh, that's that's 846 00:50:23,360 --> 00:50:27,080 Speaker 1: based on operant learning. Basically, you're less likely to engage 847 00:50:27,080 --> 00:50:30,759 Speaker 1: in a behavior that has a negative consequence. So they've 848 00:50:30,760 --> 00:50:32,640 Speaker 1: done plenty of research on that, and a lot of 849 00:50:32,640 --> 00:50:38,160 Speaker 1: psychologists uh say, like, yeah, forgiveness is great, but while 850 00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:39,960 Speaker 1: you shouldn't be bitter, there are a lot of times 851 00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:43,359 Speaker 1: when you should not forgive somebody, and that's okay, Yeah, 852 00:50:43,360 --> 00:50:48,120 Speaker 1: there's a whole um. There's an article from on Psychology 853 00:50:48,160 --> 00:50:51,800 Speaker 1: Today called Must We Forgive? And it is really interesting, 854 00:50:51,840 --> 00:50:55,520 Speaker 1: it's fascinating. It's this psychologist writes about probably half a 855 00:50:55,560 --> 00:50:58,880 Speaker 1: dozen or more people and they're different individual circumstances and 856 00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:02,520 Speaker 1: the reasons they chose not to forgive, and um, she 857 00:51:02,719 --> 00:51:06,080 Speaker 1: kind of pigeonholes them into like three general categories, but 858 00:51:06,520 --> 00:51:10,200 Speaker 1: because psychologists love doing that. But it's a really compelling 859 00:51:10,480 --> 00:51:12,920 Speaker 1: article and it's definitely worth reading, and it provides this 860 00:51:13,000 --> 00:51:16,239 Speaker 1: kind of alternative idea that like, no, there's definitely situations 861 00:51:16,280 --> 00:51:19,440 Speaker 1: where some people don't deserve your forgiveness. One of the 862 00:51:19,520 --> 00:51:23,800 Speaker 1: chief among them is if you say, like a sibling 863 00:51:23,840 --> 00:51:26,520 Speaker 1: or a family member of some sort um you have 864 00:51:27,200 --> 00:51:30,160 Speaker 1: like some sort of falling out with or they've wronged 865 00:51:30,200 --> 00:51:32,879 Speaker 1: you and you choose not to forgive them. You might 866 00:51:32,920 --> 00:51:35,759 Speaker 1: feel tremendous pressure from the rest of your family to 867 00:51:35,840 --> 00:51:38,440 Speaker 1: just go ahead and forgive them. That's a terrible reason 868 00:51:38,480 --> 00:51:40,839 Speaker 1: to forgive somebody. And if you do forgive them under 869 00:51:40,840 --> 00:51:45,240 Speaker 1: those circumstances, or say because your religion decrees it, um, 870 00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:48,640 Speaker 1: you're like, that's not full forgiveness, and it may actually 871 00:51:48,680 --> 00:51:52,840 Speaker 1: harm you because you may suffer um from from a 872 00:51:52,920 --> 00:51:57,200 Speaker 1: distorted self image or or lowered self respect because you 873 00:51:57,280 --> 00:51:59,919 Speaker 1: basically went back to this person who not only wrong 874 00:52:00,040 --> 00:52:02,359 Speaker 1: do in the past, is unrepentant about it, but as 875 00:52:02,400 --> 00:52:05,000 Speaker 1: he was going to continue the behavior again in the future. 876 00:52:05,560 --> 00:52:10,520 Speaker 1: So there's definitely instances that where like you probably shouldn't forgive, 877 00:52:10,800 --> 00:52:12,719 Speaker 1: But that doesn't mean that you should be stuck in 878 00:52:13,120 --> 00:52:16,560 Speaker 1: resentment and anger and letting that person have power over 879 00:52:16,600 --> 00:52:19,120 Speaker 1: your life. You might just need to move on without 880 00:52:19,160 --> 00:52:22,360 Speaker 1: them and without forgiving them, and you can make that 881 00:52:22,440 --> 00:52:24,799 Speaker 1: work as well. Yeah, I mean, there was that one 882 00:52:25,400 --> 00:52:28,319 Speaker 1: terrible story that you said about the woman who as 883 00:52:28,360 --> 00:52:32,480 Speaker 1: a child had this terribly bullying and abusive older brother. 884 00:52:33,360 --> 00:52:35,400 Speaker 1: And we won't even talk about the awful things this 885 00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:39,560 Speaker 1: guy did, but the parents were really put always pushing like, Oh, 886 00:52:39,640 --> 00:52:41,640 Speaker 1: he just doesn't. He doesn't know how to say he 887 00:52:41,640 --> 00:52:42,960 Speaker 1: loves you, he doesn't know how to talk to you. 888 00:52:43,040 --> 00:52:44,840 Speaker 1: So he does these things and you really need to 889 00:52:44,880 --> 00:52:48,759 Speaker 1: forgive him. And that's just that's bonkers. You know that 890 00:52:48,880 --> 00:52:51,839 Speaker 1: that is a situation where you're doing such great harm 891 00:52:51,920 --> 00:52:56,279 Speaker 1: as a parent to teach your daughter to accept this 892 00:52:56,360 --> 00:52:59,399 Speaker 1: kind of behavior and not only accept it but forgive it. 893 00:52:59,400 --> 00:53:02,360 Speaker 1: It's like just setting her up for unless she really 894 00:53:02,840 --> 00:53:06,080 Speaker 1: therapies through that stuff later in life of just a 895 00:53:06,120 --> 00:53:10,960 Speaker 1: series of terrible relationships. So exactly, yes, yes he can't. Uh, 896 00:53:11,360 --> 00:53:16,480 Speaker 1: Forgiveness isn't always the thing. Um My. I have a 897 00:53:16,520 --> 00:53:19,759 Speaker 1: friend who had a terrible thing happened to him when 898 00:53:19,760 --> 00:53:22,560 Speaker 1: he was younger, and he we talked a lot about 899 00:53:22,560 --> 00:53:24,479 Speaker 1: this and he has forgiven that person in his heart 900 00:53:25,080 --> 00:53:28,880 Speaker 1: and I was like, well I haven't. And I was 901 00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:32,560 Speaker 1: like I'm still angry about it, and he was like thanks, 902 00:53:32,560 --> 00:53:36,440 Speaker 1: Like that helps, Like I'm angry and have not forgiven 903 00:53:36,480 --> 00:53:38,600 Speaker 1: on his behalf. And I thought he was going to 904 00:53:38,680 --> 00:53:40,319 Speaker 1: say like, no, man, you need to do the same. 905 00:53:40,320 --> 00:53:42,399 Speaker 1: And he was like he was like, thank you, man, 906 00:53:43,760 --> 00:53:47,440 Speaker 1: I appreciate that. Yeah, And I think that's another another 907 00:53:47,480 --> 00:53:49,600 Speaker 1: thing worth pointing out too, is we have this concept 908 00:53:49,640 --> 00:53:54,200 Speaker 1: of people who forgive others being saintly and and it's 909 00:53:54,239 --> 00:53:57,200 Speaker 1: not necessarily that kind of a thing. It's not necessarily 910 00:53:57,239 --> 00:54:00,080 Speaker 1: that kind of a process. Sometimes it is just it 911 00:54:00,239 --> 00:54:03,399 Speaker 1: up self preservation. Like you are, that's the way that 912 00:54:03,440 --> 00:54:05,759 Speaker 1: you're going to get to put a point where you 913 00:54:05,760 --> 00:54:08,000 Speaker 1: can feel peace again in your life. And that doesn't 914 00:54:08,000 --> 00:54:10,040 Speaker 1: mean you're a saying or you're even feeling saintly. You're 915 00:54:10,040 --> 00:54:12,720 Speaker 1: you're conducting yourself in a saintly manner, and that doesn't 916 00:54:12,719 --> 00:54:15,000 Speaker 1: matter as long as you're feeling inner peace in your 917 00:54:15,040 --> 00:54:17,399 Speaker 1: life is no longer in turmoil, and this person who 918 00:54:17,400 --> 00:54:20,120 Speaker 1: wronged you doesn't have power over you any longer. That's 919 00:54:20,160 --> 00:54:22,800 Speaker 1: the point of forgiveness. Yeah, and that that was totally 920 00:54:22,800 --> 00:54:25,080 Speaker 1: the deal in his cases. That was his only way 921 00:54:25,080 --> 00:54:29,000 Speaker 1: forward to to healing himself. But since this wasn't something 922 00:54:29,040 --> 00:54:31,960 Speaker 1: that happened to me, I was able to not forgive 923 00:54:32,480 --> 00:54:35,840 Speaker 1: right and and remain upset about it. And uh he 924 00:54:36,040 --> 00:54:38,759 Speaker 1: he was okay with that. Yeah. And still to this day, 925 00:54:38,800 --> 00:54:44,279 Speaker 1: you won't buy that guy beers man. So um, there's 926 00:54:44,320 --> 00:54:46,480 Speaker 1: one other thing that has started to kind of come 927 00:54:46,520 --> 00:54:49,080 Speaker 1: out of the shadows. That's just getting picked up by 928 00:54:49,080 --> 00:54:51,759 Speaker 1: psychology as far as forgiveness goes, and it's self forgiveness 929 00:54:52,160 --> 00:54:54,160 Speaker 1: and we don't really have room to talk about that here, 930 00:54:54,160 --> 00:54:57,480 Speaker 1: but it's worth exploring sometime, maybe into short stuff. Yeah, 931 00:54:57,480 --> 00:55:00,400 Speaker 1: that's a big deal. Just uh a of times when 932 00:55:00,440 --> 00:55:02,759 Speaker 1: I'm beating up on myself, Emily says, you need to 933 00:55:02,800 --> 00:55:05,520 Speaker 1: be nicer to my friend. Oh, I know you've you've 934 00:55:05,520 --> 00:55:07,759 Speaker 1: told that before. I was just think, one of the 935 00:55:07,760 --> 00:55:10,400 Speaker 1: sweetest things I've ever heard. What a kind thing to say. 936 00:55:11,360 --> 00:55:15,080 Speaker 1: It works, you know, who needs to hear that? Don Henley, 937 00:55:18,080 --> 00:55:20,840 Speaker 1: you got anything else on forgiveness and nothing else? It's 938 00:55:20,880 --> 00:55:23,319 Speaker 1: this is a good way to eat philosophical discussion. I 939 00:55:23,400 --> 00:55:25,560 Speaker 1: like these, agreed. Thanks a lot to Dave Ruce for 940 00:55:25,600 --> 00:55:28,399 Speaker 1: helping us out with this one. Uh. And if you 941 00:55:28,680 --> 00:55:32,279 Speaker 1: want to know more about forgiveness, you should seriously go 942 00:55:32,360 --> 00:55:34,720 Speaker 1: out and do some reading, especially if you have something 943 00:55:34,760 --> 00:55:39,000 Speaker 1: to forgive. It's not something you necessarily can understand, just instinctively. 944 00:55:39,400 --> 00:55:42,480 Speaker 1: It helps to see what the experts say. So maybe 945 00:55:42,480 --> 00:55:46,040 Speaker 1: go explore that and free yourself. Says I said, free yourself. 946 00:55:46,040 --> 00:55:47,879 Speaker 1: That of course means it's time for a listener. Now 947 00:55:50,400 --> 00:55:52,480 Speaker 1: I'm gonna call this dental art. Hey, guys, been a 948 00:55:52,480 --> 00:55:56,560 Speaker 1: listener for a while. We've nearly finished with the sandwiching method. 949 00:55:57,080 --> 00:56:00,640 Speaker 1: Before I knew it was even cool. Uh, we were 950 00:56:00,640 --> 00:56:02,640 Speaker 1: talking a few shows. You were talking a few shows 951 00:56:02,680 --> 00:56:06,439 Speaker 1: back before the Holidays about um putting a kidney stone 952 00:56:06,440 --> 00:56:10,120 Speaker 1: in Chuck's replacement tooth. This would be unusual, but people 953 00:56:10,120 --> 00:56:12,640 Speaker 1: actually get custom inlays and artwork made for their crowns 954 00:56:13,040 --> 00:56:15,720 Speaker 1: in laser, generally gold or gemstone with a custom artwork, 955 00:56:16,360 --> 00:56:18,759 Speaker 1: and it's referred to as a tooth tattoo, which is 956 00:56:18,800 --> 00:56:20,959 Speaker 1: hand painted onto the crown before it gets a final 957 00:56:21,040 --> 00:56:24,000 Speaker 1: quote of glaze. The most common request here in the 958 00:56:24,040 --> 00:56:28,880 Speaker 1: Chicago Land area are sports logos, like a little Chicago 959 00:56:28,920 --> 00:56:33,759 Speaker 1: Cubs logo, but I've seen names, company logos, even a 960 00:56:33,800 --> 00:56:37,120 Speaker 1: tiny version of Starry Night on a tooth. While a 961 00:56:37,160 --> 00:56:39,520 Speaker 1: lot of modern Crown and Bridge manufacturing has gone digital, 962 00:56:40,000 --> 00:56:42,719 Speaker 1: highly leveraging cam a CAD in three D printing for 963 00:56:42,800 --> 00:56:46,880 Speaker 1: most restorations, tooth tattoos are unique manifestation of the relatively 964 00:56:47,200 --> 00:56:51,120 Speaker 1: unknown artistry of a subset of dental technicians. While I 965 00:56:51,160 --> 00:56:53,279 Speaker 1: recognize the dentistry as a whole is widely disliked and 966 00:56:53,280 --> 00:56:56,320 Speaker 1: a pain to endure. I appreciate you guys probably unknowingly 967 00:56:56,400 --> 00:57:01,239 Speaker 1: helped to destigmatized restorative dental work by openly talking about 968 00:57:01,280 --> 00:57:03,920 Speaker 1: your dealings with it. Toothwaar and decay is part of 969 00:57:03,920 --> 00:57:07,080 Speaker 1: the human condition. No need for shame. After all, we'll 970 00:57:07,160 --> 00:57:10,560 Speaker 1: keep me and my CADRA employed and happily listening to 971 00:57:10,560 --> 00:57:13,960 Speaker 1: stuff you should know. Many regards. That is from Eric 972 00:57:14,560 --> 00:57:18,920 Speaker 1: Crowley or Crowley, probably Crowley. I'm going with Crowley in 973 00:57:19,000 --> 00:57:22,640 Speaker 1: park Ridge, Illinois. Very nice. Thanks a lot, Eric, that's awesome. 974 00:57:23,040 --> 00:57:25,440 Speaker 1: Can you imagine seeing starry night on a tooth? I 975 00:57:25,480 --> 00:57:28,640 Speaker 1: gotta look that up. Be wonderful. I'd have this scream, well, 976 00:57:28,720 --> 00:57:31,400 Speaker 1: that's a good one, and then you could scream whenever 977 00:57:31,440 --> 00:57:34,760 Speaker 1: you reveal it to Yeah, just freak people up. Um 978 00:57:34,880 --> 00:57:36,840 Speaker 1: And speaking of sports teams, Chuck, I feel like we 979 00:57:36,840 --> 00:57:41,360 Speaker 1: should congratulate our Georgia Bulldogs for winning the national championship. Yes, 980 00:57:41,680 --> 00:57:44,200 Speaker 1: I never thought I would see the day. Uh what 981 00:57:44,320 --> 00:57:50,280 Speaker 1: a great, great game. Uh just unbelievable feeling too. Championships 982 00:57:50,280 --> 00:57:53,120 Speaker 1: in three months for this long suffering Atlanta slash Georgia 983 00:57:53,160 --> 00:57:56,080 Speaker 1: ban I know it's amazing. I don't even know how 984 00:57:56,080 --> 00:57:59,440 Speaker 1: to reconcile these feelings that I'm having lately, and they'll 985 00:57:59,440 --> 00:58:02,400 Speaker 1: be robbed from you next year. Don't worry. We're back 986 00:58:02,440 --> 00:58:04,920 Speaker 1: to normal. But that is pretty great to go out 987 00:58:04,960 --> 00:58:08,880 Speaker 1: on a highlight. Probably that was great. Go dogs, Go dogs, indeed. 988 00:58:08,920 --> 00:58:10,840 Speaker 1: And if you want to get in touch with Chuck 989 00:58:10,920 --> 00:58:14,600 Speaker 1: and I and Jerry or Frank the Chair or Harry 990 00:58:14,600 --> 00:58:17,240 Speaker 1: Dog even we can probably pass along emails you send. 991 00:58:17,680 --> 00:58:19,880 Speaker 1: You can wrap your emails up, spend them on the bottom, 992 00:58:19,920 --> 00:58:22,439 Speaker 1: and send them off to Stuff podcast at i heart 993 00:58:22,520 --> 00:58:27,760 Speaker 1: radio dot com. Stuff you Should Know is a production 994 00:58:27,800 --> 00:58:30,720 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts my heart Radio, 995 00:58:30,960 --> 00:58:33,960 Speaker 1: visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 996 00:58:34,000 --> 00:58:35,400 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.