1 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:12,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to tech Stuff, a production from iHeartRadio. Hey there, 2 00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:15,800 Speaker 1: and welcome to tech Stuff. I'm your host, Jonathan Strickland. 3 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:19,400 Speaker 1: I'm an executive producer with iHeartRadio and how the tech 4 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:23,479 Speaker 1: are you? I almost forgot my own tagline there. I've 5 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 1: been batch recording intros and outros for classic episodes and 6 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:30,880 Speaker 1: I'm up to number fourteen and I'm starting to get loopy. 7 00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 1: But this is a great time for me to welcome 8 00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:38,360 Speaker 1: you here to listen to this classic episode that originally 9 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:42,680 Speaker 1: published on May eighteen, twenty sixteen. It is a fun 10 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:46,280 Speaker 1: two part episode, so we'll get part two next week. 11 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:50,680 Speaker 1: And Ben joined the show. Ben Bolan of Stuff They 12 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:54,200 Speaker 1: Don't Want You To Know and Ridiculous History fame, as 13 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:59,480 Speaker 1: well as a phenomenal writer on some of our narrative 14 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:04,120 Speaker 1: fictional podcast episodes. He joined the show to talk about 15 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:07,520 Speaker 1: the problem with ads. So this one is part one. 16 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:11,760 Speaker 1: Next week we'll get part two, and yeah, man, we 17 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:15,280 Speaker 1: could probably do a full mini series about the problem 18 00:01:15,319 --> 00:01:21,320 Speaker 1: with ads and the balance between commerce and content or 19 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:25,000 Speaker 1: art if you will not for me to assume that 20 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:28,240 Speaker 1: tech Stuff is art, but rather how do you balance 21 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:35,080 Speaker 1: the desire to create valuable informative content or entertaining content 22 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:41,160 Speaker 1: against commerce. There have been a lot of missteps in 23 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:44,640 Speaker 1: that path, and we're going to listen to this episode 24 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:47,240 Speaker 1: and learn about some of those. So sit back and 25 00:01:47,319 --> 00:01:52,080 Speaker 1: enjoy this classic episode from twenty sixteen. Have you ever 26 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:58,920 Speaker 1: seen and advertisement and thought, yes, absolutely, this is for 27 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:03,880 Speaker 1: me rarely, but it has been known to happen, I 28 00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:06,040 Speaker 1: can tell you right now. I can tell you too, 29 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:08,280 Speaker 1: right off the top of my head, and it's largely 30 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:14,120 Speaker 1: because of the tone of the advertising campaign. Old spicy odorant, 31 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:22,040 Speaker 1: right right? Dollar shave Club? Okay, what about Dollar shave Club? Guy? 32 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 1: The commercials for a dollar shave Club are kind of 33 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:27,959 Speaker 1: in that same tongue in cheek, snarky sort of approach, 34 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:32,040 Speaker 1: a little not so in your face as to be 35 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:37,400 Speaker 1: truly obnoxious, but just barely straddling that line between being 36 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:42,880 Speaker 1: charming and being arrogant. And I find it entertaining. And 37 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:47,000 Speaker 1: I thought, well, I shave quite a bit actually, because 38 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:49,160 Speaker 1: because I got the head that I have to shave 39 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:53,320 Speaker 1: because nature has deprived me of some of my hair 40 00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:54,960 Speaker 1: but not all of it, so I have to get 41 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:58,600 Speaker 1: rid of the rest. And I decided to try it 42 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:01,160 Speaker 1: out because I thought the ads were really entertaining. The 43 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:05,080 Speaker 1: idea of the subscription model was much more attractive to 44 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:07,360 Speaker 1: me than having to go to the store and ask 45 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:13,760 Speaker 1: to unlock the vault of razors. Yeah, and it turned 46 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:17,399 Speaker 1: out that I loved the products. So the ad did 47 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:20,280 Speaker 1: exactly what it was supposed to do. It got my attention, 48 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:25,839 Speaker 1: it made me remember the brand, and its ultimately got 49 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:28,000 Speaker 1: me to act, which are That's exactly what ads are 50 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:30,240 Speaker 1: supposed to do. Let me tell you what ads are 51 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:33,520 Speaker 1: not supposed to do. Whatsosed to do. They're not supposed 52 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:37,760 Speaker 1: to irritate the audience to the point where they no 53 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:40,440 Speaker 1: longer ever want to buy anything ever again, and then 54 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 1: they rage quit the Internet. So today we're going to 55 00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:48,400 Speaker 1: talk about ads and ad blockers and to kind of 56 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:51,800 Speaker 1: go into the discussion that's been kind of going around 57 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 1: recently about ad blockers, including some of the stuff that's 58 00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:56,920 Speaker 1: going on in Europe, some of the stuff that you 59 00:03:57,000 --> 00:03:59,440 Speaker 1: might have heard about as far as ads and their 60 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:04,840 Speaker 1: relationship to malware. What exactly is going on and where 61 00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:07,880 Speaker 1: do we stand on this? And then you know, you 62 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:09,760 Speaker 1: do a lot of stuff here at how stuff works, 63 00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:12,520 Speaker 1: but I specifically ask you, in your capacity as one 64 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 1: of the hosts of stuff they don't want you to 65 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:18,440 Speaker 1: know because as the host of that show, you've covered 66 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:23,960 Speaker 1: the topics surrounding privacy pretty extensively, right, and privacy is 67 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:28,800 Speaker 1: one of the factors that comes into play when you're 68 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:33,600 Speaker 1: talking about advertising, particularly today when targeted advertising has become 69 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:39,200 Speaker 1: such a huge part of strategies. Now, to start this off, 70 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:42,480 Speaker 1: before we jump into all of that, I thought I 71 00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:46,320 Speaker 1: would give kind of a really high level explanation of 72 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:50,839 Speaker 1: what is going on behind the scenes technically with ads 73 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:54,840 Speaker 1: on web pages and thus how ad blockers are able 74 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:56,680 Speaker 1: to work at all. You might think, well, how can 75 00:04:56,720 --> 00:05:01,000 Speaker 1: an ad blocker recognize and block and add but not 76 00:05:01,279 --> 00:05:07,320 Speaker 1: the content I'm trying to see? So, Ben Jonathan, you work, 77 00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 1: You work on the web. Yes, you you've visited a 78 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:15,720 Speaker 1: website or two. You probably know that you do so 79 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:20,599 Speaker 1: through something called a browser. Yes, yes, for you know, 80 00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:27,880 Speaker 1: something like a Chrome, Firefox, Edge Edge. Yeah. And if 81 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:31,320 Speaker 1: you are using Internet Explorer, I hope it is only 82 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:35,560 Speaker 1: because some outside authority is making you do so, right, Like, 83 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:38,560 Speaker 1: there's an intranet that you can only access with Internet Explorer. 84 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:41,240 Speaker 1: Do you remember those days? I remember, Yeah, there was 85 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:44,560 Speaker 1: that was the only reason. I had Internet Explorer installed 86 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:47,520 Speaker 1: on my old computers so that I could access our 87 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:51,240 Speaker 1: company's former intrnet, which is ridiculous. But here we are 88 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:55,279 Speaker 1: nonetheless on a browser. Yeah. So when you are visiting 89 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:57,960 Speaker 1: a website using your browser, you type in the r 90 00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:00,120 Speaker 1: L type of deep deep, and you put it in 91 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:02,200 Speaker 1: the address bar and you hit that inter button. What 92 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:05,120 Speaker 1: is happening is your browser is sending out a request 93 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:09,400 Speaker 1: over the Internet, and it's essentially saying, Hey, the jerk 94 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:12,160 Speaker 1: on the other end of this keyboard wants to see 95 00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:15,560 Speaker 1: you know. Uh, I don't know what's a good website. 96 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:19,080 Speaker 1: Let's say Wired dot com. That's a great example, because 97 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:22,080 Speaker 1: Wired's going to come up in other parts of this discussion. Yeah, 98 00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:25,919 Speaker 1: and Wired, by the way, I love Wired. They do 99 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:27,520 Speaker 1: great work, and I've got a lot of friends who 100 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:29,799 Speaker 1: have worked for Wired, either in the past or currently. 101 00:06:30,440 --> 00:06:32,880 Speaker 1: Love their stuff. So you're going to Wired dot com. 102 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 1: What happens is the uh, this request goes out over 103 00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:42,320 Speaker 1: the Internet and it's routed through a series of connections 104 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:46,960 Speaker 1: until it gets to the server where Wired dot com lives, 105 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:49,880 Speaker 1: which is like the vault of their information. Yeah, it's 106 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:52,800 Speaker 1: a it's a it's an actual physical computer that has 107 00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:57,320 Speaker 1: the instance of that website stored on it, and then 108 00:06:57,360 --> 00:07:00,440 Speaker 1: when the request comes in, it serves the US living 109 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:03,240 Speaker 1: up to its name, the information to you, and it 110 00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:06,920 Speaker 1: goes back across the Internet, not necessarily in the same 111 00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:09,440 Speaker 1: pathway that your request came through. That gets into a 112 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:13,560 Speaker 1: discussion of packets that really is immaterial for this. Yeah, 113 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:15,760 Speaker 1: I've talked about packets in previous episodes. So if you 114 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:17,400 Speaker 1: really want to know what packet switching is and how 115 00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:20,120 Speaker 1: all that works, go check out the archives of tech 116 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 1: stuff and it's out there. But the information comes to you, 117 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:25,720 Speaker 1: and your browser puts it together and displays it for you, 118 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:28,000 Speaker 1: and it does so based upon the rules set up 119 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:32,280 Speaker 1: by the web master rights whoever put it together. There 120 00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:37,280 Speaker 1: are there's language tags that explain how it's supposed to 121 00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:40,560 Speaker 1: look when it's displayed on your browser, and that's how 122 00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:42,840 Speaker 1: it works. And so you think, okay, so so it's 123 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:46,720 Speaker 1: really just a request and then a response. But then 124 00:07:46,760 --> 00:07:50,560 Speaker 1: you have ads. Now, with ads, the content for the 125 00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 1: ads comes from a different place than the content for 126 00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:57,200 Speaker 1: the web page itself. So those ads that are on 127 00:07:57,360 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 1: wired dot com, they're actually coming from different servers. They're 128 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:05,240 Speaker 1: not coming from wired's server, and the web page just 129 00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:10,720 Speaker 1: has a space dedicated or some form of a relationship 130 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 1: there that's dedicated to the ad that says this is 131 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:17,119 Speaker 1: where the ad will go when it's served to the viewer, 132 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:20,960 Speaker 1: and that depends on the arrangement between the advertiser and 133 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:24,880 Speaker 1: the content creator. Yeah, so you could probably, I mean, 134 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:27,240 Speaker 1: we could really dive down into this and say, all 135 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:32,280 Speaker 1: these different types of ads have different rates. Like a 136 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:35,440 Speaker 1: banner add at this point is almost considered to be worthless, 137 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:40,679 Speaker 1: and a banner ad is a term describing those long, 138 00:08:40,880 --> 00:08:45,240 Speaker 1: horizontal ads you will see that take up an entire 139 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:47,640 Speaker 1: row I guess of a website, right, Yeah, And you 140 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:50,560 Speaker 1: could say, like a rail would be the vertical version 141 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:52,199 Speaker 1: of that, either on the left or right. And then 142 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:54,679 Speaker 1: there are other things like they are pop ups, per 143 00:08:56,280 --> 00:08:58,840 Speaker 1: tons of different types and they all have different rates 144 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:03,360 Speaker 1: depending upon the lots of factors. How popular is the 145 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:07,240 Speaker 1: website and how effective are those ads considered to be, 146 00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:09,640 Speaker 1: Like the least effective are the ones, They're going to 147 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 1: be the least expensive. And in some cases you will 148 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:15,680 Speaker 1: find web pages that have completely abandoned some of the 149 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:19,000 Speaker 1: cheaper ones because they don't really work anyway, And you 150 00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:21,760 Speaker 1: might as well try and command a higher price. So 151 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:26,720 Speaker 1: those impressions those that data is actually coming from other 152 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:30,600 Speaker 1: servers and they're the advertisers. Servers are the more likely 153 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:35,280 Speaker 1: advertising agencies servers where that data lives. So as the 154 00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:39,280 Speaker 1: page is loading up the sections for the ads, that 155 00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:43,319 Speaker 1: gets another request saying hey, send me the information that's 156 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:46,000 Speaker 1: supposed to go here. It's coming from this other server 157 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 1: that gets sent to your computer and is inserted into 158 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:52,720 Speaker 1: the appropriate section by your browser when it's constructing the 159 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:56,760 Speaker 1: whole thing. The way ad blockers work is essentially it 160 00:09:56,840 --> 00:10:02,400 Speaker 1: has a filter list saying anything coming from these particular servers, 161 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:06,000 Speaker 1: don't let it show up, just don't even let it 162 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:09,120 Speaker 1: through the door, like mad ads dot com. Yeah, which 163 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:13,480 Speaker 1: I just made up right right, So so anything that 164 00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 1: would come from that server would automatically get blocked and 165 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:20,679 Speaker 1: not be incorporated into the web page as you're displaying it. 166 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:23,920 Speaker 1: So that's the general way that most ad blockers work. 167 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:26,480 Speaker 1: There's another way too. The ad blockers can also look 168 00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:30,800 Speaker 1: for certain tags that are associated with advertising, like there's 169 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:33,640 Speaker 1: actually a tag for ad that kind of stuff, and 170 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:36,920 Speaker 1: just block anything that that shows up under that tag. 171 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:40,280 Speaker 1: But generally speaking, the idea is just a kind of 172 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 1: a bouncer that says anyone from this neighborhood is not 173 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:47,200 Speaker 1: allowed into the club, and so checking your checking all 174 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 1: the IDs and saying I'm sorry, you're from a part 175 00:10:49,840 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 1: of the neighborhood where we don't let you in. It's 176 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:55,920 Speaker 1: so discriminatory. That's the way. That's that's how an ad 177 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:59,240 Speaker 1: blocker has to work, right, It has to discriminate, otherwise 178 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:01,440 Speaker 1: you don't get You either get everything or you get nothing. 179 00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:05,640 Speaker 1: So it has and we should do a disclaimer, yeah, 180 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:08,160 Speaker 1: which is what Oh, okay, I'll do it. Yeah. So 181 00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:12,520 Speaker 1: we are fully aware, ladies and gentlemen, that we do 182 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:16,720 Speaker 1: work for an internet company how stuff works. It's our 183 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:20,680 Speaker 1: parent company for our range of podcasts, and it is 184 00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:23,960 Speaker 1: AD supported, and it is AD supported, and quite a 185 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:29,199 Speaker 1: few things online are AD supported. Yes. However, I will 186 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:34,560 Speaker 1: confess to my hypocrisy because I am an enormous fan 187 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:41,719 Speaker 1: of certain ad blockers. Yeah, and I completely understand why 188 00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:47,560 Speaker 1: another person would use an ad blocker, especially given as 189 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:52,160 Speaker 1: you mentioned, the privacy concerns that we'll get to. Yeah. 190 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:56,280 Speaker 1: So there's a whole lot of stuff going on for 191 00:11:56,360 --> 00:11:59,520 Speaker 1: reasons why people would consider using an ad blocker, and 192 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:01,960 Speaker 1: to your point, be not to leave you hanging out there. 193 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:05,720 Speaker 1: I use ad blockers too sometimes sometimes I will set 194 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:12,360 Speaker 1: exemptions for websites that I think are handling advertising in 195 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:17,800 Speaker 1: a responsible way, in a non invasive, non potentially harmful 196 00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:20,040 Speaker 1: kind of way. So you can you can with most 197 00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:23,640 Speaker 1: ad blockers set filters and say anything on this page, 198 00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:25,840 Speaker 1: go ahead and show me the ad. It's fine. Can 199 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:29,840 Speaker 1: white list stuff exactly sowire dot com. There's an example 200 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:33,000 Speaker 1: that's on my white list. A couple of others too. 201 00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:35,200 Speaker 1: There's some that want to be on my white list 202 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:38,840 Speaker 1: that I have not put on there. Cough Forbes cough. 203 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 1: But we'll get into that too. So there are a 204 00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:45,200 Speaker 1: lot of different reasons, and some of them you could 205 00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:48,280 Speaker 1: argue are more valid than others for people to want 206 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:50,000 Speaker 1: to use ad blockers. So I'm going to run through 207 00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:52,200 Speaker 1: a few of those. And also I could say that 208 00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:56,280 Speaker 1: there's other things you can do, like through your browser 209 00:12:56,360 --> 00:13:01,240 Speaker 1: itself that don't necessarily block ads, but block elements of 210 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:07,280 Speaker 1: ads that you might find particularly irritatingly. Yeah. Yeah, Like 211 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:11,680 Speaker 1: you can disable video or audio or flash animation, or 212 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:14,640 Speaker 1: you can not even have flash installed, So that also 213 00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:19,240 Speaker 1: helps yeah, I don't know. Is Yeah, there's a lot 214 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:21,880 Speaker 1: of content out there that is dependent upon flash and 215 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:25,040 Speaker 1: without it. Without flash, it makes it harder. Another some 216 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:29,559 Speaker 1: things have definitely helped by moving to HTML five. So 217 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:32,920 Speaker 1: at any rate, let's talk about some of the reasons 218 00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:36,240 Speaker 1: folks block ads. Uh, some of them, like we said, 219 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:40,960 Speaker 1: are just obnoxious. They're intrusive. They ruin the experience you're 220 00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:43,679 Speaker 1: trying to have. If you are trying to read an 221 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:48,680 Speaker 1: article and as you scroll down, a window slides into view, 222 00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:51,360 Speaker 1: covering up the text you're trying to read and is 223 00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:54,480 Speaker 1: auto playing some commercial that has no bearing on your 224 00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:58,960 Speaker 1: life whatsoever, that's a bad experience. Right Like if if 225 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:03,840 Speaker 1: I were going on a page about a technical gadget 226 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:07,240 Speaker 1: and I'm reading and as I scrolled down, an ad 227 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:10,720 Speaker 1: for diapers comes on, I'm going to be irritated. I 228 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:14,280 Speaker 1: don't have a baby, I don't need diapers myself. Yet 229 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:17,839 Speaker 1: you're not reading about something related to diapers. No, I'm 230 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:21,520 Speaker 1: not reading about the latest and diaper tracking software, you know, 231 00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:24,560 Speaker 1: getting that notification on your app that's time to change 232 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:27,160 Speaker 1: the diaper. I'm not reading any of that. That would 233 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:31,000 Speaker 1: be a very bad experience. It could be I poop. 234 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:33,960 Speaker 1: I mean I do. That's I don't want to get 235 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:39,640 Speaker 1: into it. That's probably one that we will not pitch 236 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:45,120 Speaker 1: on that show. Yeah, so that's one reason. Just just 237 00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:48,960 Speaker 1: because it's an it can be an unpleasant experience. Depending 238 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:51,880 Speaker 1: upon the way the ad is presented, it's disruptive, it is, 239 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:55,760 Speaker 1: it is disruptive. Another is that it slows downloading time, 240 00:14:56,120 --> 00:15:00,280 Speaker 1: right because there is this additional uh communication that has 241 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:02,480 Speaker 1: to happen to pull that information in while the page 242 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:05,600 Speaker 1: is loading. And we all know that we have very 243 00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:08,280 Speaker 1: little patients to wait around when loading website. If you've 244 00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:10,520 Speaker 1: ever had one of those days that here at work 245 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:14,760 Speaker 1: where occasionally our network gets a little sludgy, oh pandemonium. 246 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:16,840 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, you're like, you're like typing in even if 247 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:18,200 Speaker 1: you're just typing in something like I just need to 248 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:20,880 Speaker 1: Google something and you're typing in your Google search and 249 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:23,520 Speaker 1: you hit in her and it's not that point three 250 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:26,640 Speaker 1: second response and it takes like a couple of seconds. 251 00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:30,120 Speaker 1: You go nuts, You're like, what is happening? Bandemonium? We're 252 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:33,480 Speaker 1: one slow internet connection from away from a series of 253 00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:36,000 Speaker 1: knife fights. Yeah no, I mean we have the knives 254 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:40,560 Speaker 1: here in the office, right, I personally plan on hiding 255 00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:44,840 Speaker 1: because there's some crazy people in this Oh yeah, yeah, Scott, 256 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:47,400 Speaker 1: Benjamin's got some moves. He's got to reach to man's 257 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 1: got he's got that armspan. So ads also can take 258 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:54,120 Speaker 1: up a lot of bandwidth, right, that's another huge problem 259 00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:58,680 Speaker 1: because a lot of I sps are using bandwidth caps, 260 00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:01,760 Speaker 1: especially in the mobile world. Old Ben Boland and I 261 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:03,600 Speaker 1: will be back in just a moment to talk a 262 00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:06,760 Speaker 1: little bit more about the problem with ads after this 263 00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:20,960 Speaker 1: quick break. So, both in mobile and my home ISSP 264 00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:24,080 Speaker 1: technically have a data cap. Now I have paid extra 265 00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:26,960 Speaker 1: to get out of the cap on both sides, but 266 00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:29,080 Speaker 1: that's because I make enough money where I can pay 267 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 1: a little extra to do that. That should not be 268 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:35,760 Speaker 1: something I don't think that should be encouraged. I think 269 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:40,240 Speaker 1: that there's no real good reason for data caps, particularly 270 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:46,280 Speaker 1: for home networks. But if you have ads activated, that's 271 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:48,600 Speaker 1: more data that's coming through. That means that not only 272 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:51,040 Speaker 1: do you not want to see these things, but it's 273 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 1: taking away your opportunity to see other stuff exactly. Also, also, 274 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:58,200 Speaker 1: are have you done a data caps episode, Jonathan? I 275 00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:00,840 Speaker 1: haven't because I probably would be frothing at the mouth 276 00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:04,400 Speaker 1: end of it so angry about that the emperor has 277 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:08,480 Speaker 1: no clothes. Yeah, let's just say that. Uh, I think 278 00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:13,679 Speaker 1: some companies can be a little bombastic, which rhymes a 279 00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:16,800 Speaker 1: lot with a certain isp that I'm not happy about, right, Right, 280 00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:19,439 Speaker 1: But as you're saying that's that's an excellent point because 281 00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:22,680 Speaker 1: you know, let's say you see this ad for diapers 282 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:26,200 Speaker 1: and it's a video, right, it's an AutoPlay video while 283 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:30,280 Speaker 1: you're reading about your latest gadget that you're doing research on, right, 284 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:35,000 Speaker 1: and then the chances of this happening are very small. 285 00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:39,080 Speaker 1: But what if it's the proverbial feather on your internet's 286 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 1: camel back, you know what I mean, Like, right, that's 287 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:45,000 Speaker 1: the thing that happens, and then the camel just collapses 288 00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:47,440 Speaker 1: and you get the pop up warning. Well, then that's 289 00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:52,080 Speaker 1: exceed your data. And if it's a video based advertisement, 290 00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:53,679 Speaker 1: that kind of stuff, I mean, that takes up a 291 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:57,480 Speaker 1: more data and and I mean you think about how 292 00:17:57,560 --> 00:18:01,520 Speaker 1: much browsing you do in a typical month. If you 293 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:05,600 Speaker 1: are already bumping up against that data cap toward the 294 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 1: end of the month, like in that last week, ads 295 00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:11,679 Speaker 1: could be accumulatively across the rest of the month be 296 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:14,480 Speaker 1: enough to make that happen in the middle of the month, 297 00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:21,560 Speaker 1: a problem magnified or exacerbated for mobile users exactly. So 298 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:24,960 Speaker 1: that's a reason some people use ad blockers. They say, listen, 299 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:27,560 Speaker 1: I have a limited amount of data I am allowed 300 00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:31,359 Speaker 1: to access, and I'm bumping up against it, and I 301 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:34,400 Speaker 1: don't have other options, I mean, other than just stopping. 302 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:42,640 Speaker 1: But that's crazy talk, is what that is. And also, finally, well, 303 00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:45,800 Speaker 1: two other things. One is that targeted advertising some people 304 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:49,360 Speaker 1: find it very off putting. Right the idea that let's 305 00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:52,879 Speaker 1: say that's it's not an ad for diapers that's completely 306 00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:55,560 Speaker 1: irrelevant to my life. Let's say it's an AD that's 307 00:18:55,880 --> 00:19:00,159 Speaker 1: very relevant. Maybe it's I don't know, head wax so 308 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:02,120 Speaker 1: that I can get my head up to a nice 309 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 1: glossy finish. Or maybe it's Hamilton. May have a conversation 310 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:11,000 Speaker 1: about Hamilton. It could be that, Yeah, Hamilton is coming 311 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:15,960 Speaker 1: to Atlanta, the musical Hamilton's coming to Atlanta. Buy your tickets. 312 00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:21,320 Speaker 1: That's an AD that would be precisely targeted to me, 313 00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:24,240 Speaker 1: and I would freak out. I'd say yes, yes, yes, 314 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:25,600 Speaker 1: And that would be an AD that would work on 315 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:29,399 Speaker 1: me because I would love to see that show. If 316 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:32,760 Speaker 1: you have Hamilton tickets, I will happily take them, all right. 317 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:36,480 Speaker 1: So that's a great example, But there are other targeted 318 00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:40,040 Speaker 1: ads that can be a little scary, right, especially for 319 00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:44,600 Speaker 1: people who are trying to research something that's really sensitive. 320 00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:47,880 Speaker 1: The example that we have given many times on this 321 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:52,720 Speaker 1: show is the one about Target, where a young woman 322 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:56,960 Speaker 1: had been browsing Target ended up sending information to the 323 00:19:57,040 --> 00:20:01,960 Speaker 1: young lady about coupons related to being pregnant. Her father 324 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 1: intercepted essentially the coupons and got very mad at Target, saying, 325 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:11,000 Speaker 1: how dare you insinuate that my daughter is pregnant, and 326 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:13,840 Speaker 1: then later contacted Target again and said, I would like 327 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:16,320 Speaker 1: to apologize to you. I had a conversation with my 328 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:19,560 Speaker 1: daughter and it turns out that I didn't know about it, 329 00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:22,720 Speaker 1: but it turns out my daughter is pregnant. But that 330 00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:28,000 Speaker 1: was one of those instances where you know your online 331 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:33,000 Speaker 1: activity might indicate something you're not comfortable sharing with the 332 00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:36,280 Speaker 1: world at large, and even if your personal identity is 333 00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:41,000 Speaker 1: not part of that, that almost doesn't matter, right, Like 334 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:45,480 Speaker 1: your name is the least important thing about your personal data. 335 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:48,159 Speaker 1: What it is you want and need that's way more 336 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:53,680 Speaker 1: important to advertisers right, and your habits, your frequency of wanting, needing, 337 00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:58,160 Speaker 1: and acquiring those things. And sometimes that's helpful, like if 338 00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:03,720 Speaker 1: you go onto a shopping site like Amazon and it 339 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:06,280 Speaker 1: starts giving you suggestions based upon things you bought in 340 00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:07,919 Speaker 1: the past, and you might see something it's like, oh, 341 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:09,600 Speaker 1: you know what, I do need that or I didn't 342 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:11,680 Speaker 1: even know that existed and now I want it right, 343 00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:17,280 Speaker 1: Like based on your preferences for the following science fiction stories, 344 00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:20,720 Speaker 1: we think these are novels that you will find of interest. 345 00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:23,880 Speaker 1: Right Hamilton in Space that would be right up there. 346 00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:28,680 Speaker 1: But there are other cases where targeted advertising you might 347 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:31,800 Speaker 1: feel that that's too much of a threat to your privacy. 348 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:34,960 Speaker 1: And I mean, I can't I can't fault anyone for 349 00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:37,000 Speaker 1: feeling that way. And you might say, look, I don't 350 00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:40,320 Speaker 1: I don't allow cookies. I don't allow any of that 351 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 1: stuff to kind of trace my my online behaviors because 352 00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:48,560 Speaker 1: I want it to be just me. Whatever I need 353 00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:51,600 Speaker 1: to research or access, that's it. And that would be 354 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:53,880 Speaker 1: a reason to install ad blockers so that you don't 355 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:57,480 Speaker 1: have that following you around. And then finally, ads can 356 00:21:57,560 --> 00:22:00,960 Speaker 1: sometimes be a vector from malware. We'll talk about that 357 00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:06,199 Speaker 1: specifically in just a little bit. So that's to me, like, 358 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:07,840 Speaker 1: those are the reasons a lot of people give for 359 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:11,680 Speaker 1: why they install ad blockers, and I think, you know, again, 360 00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:16,240 Speaker 1: to varying degrees, they're valid. And there's some interesting arguments 361 00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:24,200 Speaker 1: about why ad blockers shouldn't be condemned or outlawed, why 362 00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:27,760 Speaker 1: they they serve a purpose and content providers should not 363 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:30,320 Speaker 1: make a big deal out of this. Now, the reason 364 00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:32,320 Speaker 1: we bring this up is that more and more content 365 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:36,200 Speaker 1: providers are using means to detect when an ad blockers 366 00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:40,760 Speaker 1: in place, right, and you'll get a notification that says, 367 00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:45,560 Speaker 1: we see that you're using an ad blocking service, right, 368 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:53,879 Speaker 1: And this notification from the website has a range of responses, 369 00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:58,159 Speaker 1: so you may see something that says we see you're 370 00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:00,680 Speaker 1: using an app blocker. We get it. That's are annoying, 371 00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:03,840 Speaker 1: but this is our business, right, this is how we 372 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:09,680 Speaker 1: make money. To the furthest extreme, which which I think 373 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:13,199 Speaker 1: we already alluded to Forbes, Yeah, where the website is 374 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:17,440 Speaker 1: crippled or restricted right unless you turn off an app 375 00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:20,159 Speaker 1: block And I get it again, we work for a 376 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:25,600 Speaker 1: company that makes money through advertising, and I get the 377 00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:28,720 Speaker 1: need to say, look, I got to protect my business. 378 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:32,960 Speaker 1: I can't just let people quote unquote steal stuff, right, 379 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:35,840 Speaker 1: I can't let people walk in take things, and there's 380 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:38,480 Speaker 1: no means for me to generate revenue because then I 381 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:40,679 Speaker 1: can't pay the people who work for me. If I 382 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:42,199 Speaker 1: can't pay the people who work for me, I go 383 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:45,440 Speaker 1: out of business. And then you don't have the content 384 00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:47,520 Speaker 1: in the first place. That is a valid argument, right, 385 00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:50,280 Speaker 1: that's valid to say. Look, I have to be able 386 00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:53,399 Speaker 1: to generate revenue in order to do the thing you want. 387 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:59,160 Speaker 1: You came to me buster, you put in my address 388 00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:01,720 Speaker 1: in your little URL bar, or you did a search 389 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:04,960 Speaker 1: and follow the link. So I have something you want, 390 00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:09,040 Speaker 1: but you want it for free, and I can't perpetually 391 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:13,320 Speaker 1: give it away for free because then I can't pay 392 00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:16,479 Speaker 1: the rent, I can't buy food. We have to have 393 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:19,520 Speaker 1: this exchange for this to work. I get that. But 394 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:23,439 Speaker 1: some people say, listen, condemning the ad blockers is the 395 00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 1: wrong way to go, And here is the reasoning. It 396 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:30,040 Speaker 1: sounds a lot like the same reasons people say piracy 397 00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:35,680 Speaker 1: doesn't ultimately matter that much online. Yeah, okay, I'm scooting 398 00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:37,399 Speaker 1: to the edge of my Yeah. So here's the argument. 399 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:40,560 Speaker 1: The argument is that the people who install ad blockers 400 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:44,760 Speaker 1: are the people who would otherwise be ignoring your ads anyway, 401 00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:48,040 Speaker 1: oh a self selecting sample, Yeah, they would be. They 402 00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:50,280 Speaker 1: would be the ones that ads would not be effective 403 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:52,760 Speaker 1: on them. They don't want the ads, they don't see 404 00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:56,399 Speaker 1: the ads. They're blocking the ads mainly because they just 405 00:24:56,440 --> 00:25:00,040 Speaker 1: don't even want the distraction there. So these are the 406 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:04,600 Speaker 1: are lost revenue. They're never going their impressions don't matter. 407 00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:07,600 Speaker 1: They are never going to buy those diapers. Yes, and 408 00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:10,639 Speaker 1: so the argument is that if you factor in their impressions, 409 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:13,479 Speaker 1: if you were to say, okay, no ad blockers, then 410 00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:17,280 Speaker 1: the people who figure out the rates for advertising, the 411 00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:20,240 Speaker 1: ones who say, here's how much it's worth to display 412 00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:22,679 Speaker 1: an ad on your site. If they say, well, you 413 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:27,280 Speaker 1: don't allow ad blockers and you've got x x number 414 00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:31,160 Speaker 1: of visitors per month, we estimate that a certain percentage 415 00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:34,600 Speaker 1: of those, let's say thirty percent would normally use ad 416 00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:37,960 Speaker 1: blockers if you allowed it. That thirty percent is worthless 417 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:43,320 Speaker 1: to us. So it dilutes the value of advertising on 418 00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:46,679 Speaker 1: your web page because you're forcing them to look at 419 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:50,960 Speaker 1: something that doesn't work for them, which means it's a 420 00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:53,960 Speaker 1: lost cause. You can't count those numbers and say that's 421 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:57,399 Speaker 1: a success. You can't say these this thirty percent of 422 00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:01,159 Speaker 1: people who saw your ad means that it's worth x 423 00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:06,200 Speaker 1: amount because they're worthless. And so to see the analog 424 00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:08,879 Speaker 1: in the piracy argument there, I assume it would be 425 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:14,639 Speaker 1: the same thing that such a person who pirates torrents, 426 00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:19,200 Speaker 1: downloads illegally streams some sort of videos. Let's go with 427 00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:22,199 Speaker 1: Game of Thrones. Sure, okay, so someone who is stealing 428 00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:25,439 Speaker 1: Game of Thrones, which I believe still holds the record 429 00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:29,400 Speaker 1: for the most torrented. I'm pretty sure that every time 430 00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:32,639 Speaker 1: that a new season debuts that breaks the record. Yeah, 431 00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:38,359 Speaker 1: so people around the world are stealing the holy hack 432 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:42,800 Speaker 1: out of this thing. Yeah, but would they have would 433 00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:47,320 Speaker 1: they have paid for an HBO subscription? Would they have 434 00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:50,840 Speaker 1: or HBO now right right? Would they have gone through 435 00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:54,600 Speaker 1: a regular channel anyway? And the answer is it's impossible 436 00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:58,040 Speaker 1: to say. But it appears that there are lots of 437 00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:01,919 Speaker 1: people out there who will pirates something. Uh. And the 438 00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:04,840 Speaker 1: really easy examples are the ones that like movies that 439 00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:09,280 Speaker 1: a lot of people aren't feeling very strongly about beforehand, 440 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:13,240 Speaker 1: like like there was the Wolverine film Wolverine the Origins film, 441 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:16,520 Speaker 1: and it was getting panned by critics, and it got 442 00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:20,240 Speaker 1: pirated like crazy, and then you had the studios say, hey, 443 00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:23,120 Speaker 1: you've stolen revenue from us, and the pirates said, we 444 00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:25,960 Speaker 1: weren't going to pay to see your movie at all. 445 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:28,879 Speaker 1: So really the option was we steal your movie and 446 00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:33,560 Speaker 1: watch it, which, granted for you, stinks, or we don't 447 00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:35,720 Speaker 1: see the movie at all, but either way you don't 448 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:41,240 Speaker 1: get any money, like right, So that's that's a I mean, 449 00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:44,040 Speaker 1: it's a weird argument to make saying like, well, you're 450 00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:47,480 Speaker 1: not losing revenue because you wouldn't have made it anyway. 451 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:50,199 Speaker 1: You would not have made those sales, So saying that 452 00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:54,280 Speaker 1: the piracy cost you sales is disingenuous. But saying that 453 00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:57,600 Speaker 1: people are accessing your content without paying for it fairly, 454 00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:01,879 Speaker 1: that's a that's totally legitiment. That's a completely legitimate argument. 455 00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:06,320 Speaker 1: So it's a little bit of a perspective issue, right, 456 00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:09,800 Speaker 1: It depends on what you're arguing for. If you're saying 457 00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:13,560 Speaker 1: you're costing me because otherwise you would have bought this thing, 458 00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:17,440 Speaker 1: that may not hold true. But if you're saying you're 459 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:20,760 Speaker 1: stealing something I made and really you should pay for it, 460 00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:24,919 Speaker 1: that's that's a different argument. So those are that's kind 461 00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:28,280 Speaker 1: of laying the groundwork for the rest of our conversation here. 462 00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:32,040 Speaker 1: Let's start with well, let's start with some just some thoughts, 463 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:35,520 Speaker 1: Like when I talk about that targeted advertising we mentioned 464 00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:40,160 Speaker 1: the example, have you ever really looked into that at all? 465 00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:41,840 Speaker 1: First stuff they don't want you to know, or anything 466 00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:45,920 Speaker 1: related to that. Yes, yeah, the example of you you're 467 00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:49,040 Speaker 1: talking about the kid, right, yeah, predicting the birth. Yes, 468 00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:53,800 Speaker 1: we have looked at this in a couple of different ways, 469 00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:56,320 Speaker 1: and one of the one of the ways that we 470 00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:59,800 Speaker 1: looked into it most often would be the concerns of 471 00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:07,840 Speaker 1: big big data, big data, the information that people just 472 00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:12,480 Speaker 1: emanate or create through their passage online. Picture your average 473 00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:16,640 Speaker 1: day on the internet, like one of those old family 474 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:20,960 Speaker 1: circus comic strips with the map and the little dotted line. Yeah, 475 00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:25,520 Speaker 1: those accumulated billy goes running around the neighbors exactly, God, 476 00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:27,600 Speaker 1: billy walk in a straight line, you know what I mean? 477 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:31,960 Speaker 1: Come on, kid, right, But this is a good comparison 478 00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:39,720 Speaker 1: because those breadcrumbs, those accumulated dashes of our circuitous lines 479 00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:45,120 Speaker 1: in our day to day traffic, establish a precedent, establish 480 00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:53,040 Speaker 1: a pattern, and most people, most Internet users are astonished 481 00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:59,680 Speaker 1: when they see how accurate or how sophisticated the profile 482 00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:02,760 Speaker 1: pain of them can become. You know, you may say 483 00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:07,520 Speaker 1: I have a collection of different passwords. Right, you may 484 00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:11,680 Speaker 1: say you know you And I earlier did an episode 485 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:15,760 Speaker 1: on whether it's possible to be anonymous on the Internet. Yeah, 486 00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:18,640 Speaker 1: and it is possible, but it is such a pain 487 00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:21,840 Speaker 1: in the key start, right, and the more activity you do, 488 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:26,480 Speaker 1: the less possible it becomes. Exactly because while again, like 489 00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:28,560 Speaker 1: when I said, your name is the least important piece 490 00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:31,760 Speaker 1: of information about you, it really is. People don't need 491 00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:33,960 Speaker 1: to know your name to know who you are based 492 00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:36,520 Speaker 1: upon the things that are important to them, which is 493 00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:38,800 Speaker 1: why it is again I love that you use the 494 00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:43,240 Speaker 1: word disingenuous, which is it's disingenuous as well to say 495 00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:49,320 Speaker 1: this data is anonymous. Yeah, you know, yeah, because all 496 00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:52,640 Speaker 1: sorts of little data points point to who you are 497 00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:55,240 Speaker 1: as a person, even if it doesn't give you a 498 00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:58,680 Speaker 1: first and last name. Right. It's like saying these fingerprints 499 00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:03,400 Speaker 1: are anonymous, Yeah, there's still somebody's fingerprint, exactly. And the 500 00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:06,360 Speaker 1: stuff we leave behind it's kind of like a digital fingerprint, 501 00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:09,560 Speaker 1: and and some of that information might be stuff that 502 00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:12,440 Speaker 1: a lot of people know about us, like the Hamilton thing. 503 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:15,000 Speaker 1: Ben clearly knows about it. Of course we talked about 504 00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:19,400 Speaker 1: it before a video. Yeah, but that's something that you know, 505 00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:21,920 Speaker 1: people know who know me, they know that I'm a 506 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:24,400 Speaker 1: big fan of musicals. But then there may be other 507 00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:27,200 Speaker 1: stuff that you don't want people to know. Let's say 508 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:31,440 Speaker 1: there's a let's say you have you or someone close 509 00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:34,800 Speaker 1: to you has a medical condition, right, right, and you 510 00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:39,520 Speaker 1: don't want people to you know, you don't want people 511 00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:42,960 Speaker 1: to know, for instance, that let's just say your partner 512 00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:49,120 Speaker 1: or your spouse is being tested for some sort of cancer. Right. 513 00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:54,000 Speaker 1: That's none of anyone else's business but me and my spouse. Right. 514 00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:57,680 Speaker 1: That's a that's an example that is perfectly cromulent in 515 00:31:57,680 --> 00:31:59,680 Speaker 1: this case, right. And I know it's an extreme one, 516 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:02,840 Speaker 1: right right, But it's it's anything like that, right, anything 517 00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:06,760 Speaker 1: where it's like it's not that I'm ashamed of something, 518 00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:08,960 Speaker 1: that I've done something wrong, far from it. It's just 519 00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:11,200 Speaker 1: that it's a piece of information I don't want to 520 00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:13,840 Speaker 1: share with the rest of the world. Ben and I 521 00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:16,080 Speaker 1: will be back to chat a little bit more about 522 00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:20,320 Speaker 1: ads and the thorny situations around them after we come 523 00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:33,400 Speaker 1: back from this break. Our activities online can inadvertently, in 524 00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:37,760 Speaker 1: some cases give that information to third parties which may 525 00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:40,719 Speaker 1: use it in order to try and profit from it. 526 00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:45,640 Speaker 1: Not necessarily maliciously either. That's where the targeted advertising comes in, 527 00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:50,480 Speaker 1: and you get this targeted ad that is again not malicious, 528 00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:53,080 Speaker 1: it's necessarily we'll talk about malicious ads in a minute, 529 00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:58,200 Speaker 1: not malicious in intent, but it could have a negative 530 00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:02,400 Speaker 1: impact on your experience variance of being online, because then 531 00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:05,040 Speaker 1: you think I thought I was being careful. I thought 532 00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:08,640 Speaker 1: no one knew, but now someone knows. Now I logged 533 00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:12,040 Speaker 1: into Facebook after I was logged out of Facebook. By 534 00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:14,720 Speaker 1: the way, those are some pernicious cookies. Oh yeah, after 535 00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:19,000 Speaker 1: I was logged out of Facebook ostensibly and checked on 536 00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:23,440 Speaker 1: learned about the specific type of cancer my spouse might 537 00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:27,000 Speaker 1: have came back logged in, and now I see an 538 00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:29,720 Speaker 1: ad for a cancer clinic and hoping with cancer, And 539 00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:33,200 Speaker 1: that's self extrusive. That is offensive. Yeah, it's is to 540 00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:37,360 Speaker 1: a point where like that is not the direction that 541 00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:40,640 Speaker 1: I think a lot of people were thinking about when 542 00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:43,160 Speaker 1: they started thinking about the potential or targeted ads, Like, 543 00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:46,640 Speaker 1: absolutely not the ideal situation is that the ads you 544 00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:48,600 Speaker 1: see are the ones that are relevant to you in 545 00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:52,120 Speaker 1: your situation and ones that would be effective in getting 546 00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:55,760 Speaker 1: you to purchase a product or service. And because that's 547 00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:58,480 Speaker 1: ultimately what ads are for. Ads are there to inform 548 00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:01,200 Speaker 1: you and convince you you need this thing or service 549 00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:05,480 Speaker 1: or whatever it may be. And if it's done well, 550 00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:09,920 Speaker 1: then everyone's happy because we all get access to the 551 00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:13,120 Speaker 1: stuff we want, We see things that we want to purchase. 552 00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:17,560 Speaker 1: The advertisers succeed in what they're doing, their clients succeed, 553 00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:21,600 Speaker 1: everyone is happy. The problem is that that's a very 554 00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:24,920 Speaker 1: narrow band of the overall experience that people have had 555 00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:29,120 Speaker 1: with targeted advertising, and again has led to this realm 556 00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:33,359 Speaker 1: of this this culture where ad blockers are seen as 557 00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:39,360 Speaker 1: being a perfectly legitimate response to that. And it's funny 558 00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:42,400 Speaker 1: because you know, we've both talked about how we admitted 559 00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:49,000 Speaker 1: to using ad blockers. I was amazed at how many 560 00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:54,200 Speaker 1: articles I came across where they're written on websites that 561 00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:59,080 Speaker 1: have advertising by employees of that website, and the employees 562 00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:02,920 Speaker 1: are saying, yeah, I use ad blockers too, right, like 563 00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:05,040 Speaker 1: to the point where you're sitting there thinking like, wow, 564 00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:08,120 Speaker 1: this is pretty heavy stuff when you're seeing it from 565 00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:11,840 Speaker 1: other journalists. And in fact, there was an editor, Duncan Riley, 566 00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:16,080 Speaker 1: a publisher, in fact, Duncan Riley who wrote in Silicon 567 00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:20,640 Speaker 1: Angle dot com a piece that came out today, in fact, 568 00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:23,800 Speaker 1: April twenty nine is when we're recording this twenty sixteen, 569 00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:26,680 Speaker 1: and the title of the piece is confession of a 570 00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:29,560 Speaker 1: longtime publisher. I now use an AD blocker and I 571 00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:33,040 Speaker 1: like it. And the piece kind of lays out the 572 00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:35,040 Speaker 1: same sort of things we've been talking about already and 573 00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:39,600 Speaker 1: mentions that there's already a problem here. The big problem 574 00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:49,880 Speaker 1: is that advertising has become so obnoxious that it is counterproductive. 575 00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:52,240 Speaker 1: It is doing the opposite of what it is intended 576 00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:55,879 Speaker 1: to do. It is driving people away, not bringing people in. Right, 577 00:35:56,520 --> 00:36:01,760 Speaker 1: and to the point where people are looking at advertisement 578 00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:07,319 Speaker 1: not as a vast series of varying cases, but as 579 00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:11,880 Speaker 1: one monolithic thing. Yeah and yeah, well really it doesn't 580 00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:16,960 Speaker 1: take that many really bad experiences to paint with abroad 581 00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:21,120 Speaker 1: with broad strokes, right, because you get something like a 582 00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:26,640 Speaker 1: truly awful experience that's enough to convince people to say, well, 583 00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:29,200 Speaker 1: even for the ads that are not that bad, I'd 584 00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:31,400 Speaker 1: rather go ahead and use an ad blocker to avoid 585 00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:33,200 Speaker 1: the ones that are that bad, even if I only 586 00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:37,240 Speaker 1: encounter those rarely. And part of the problem, there is 587 00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:41,840 Speaker 1: a question of evolution and learning curve because a lot 588 00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:47,360 Speaker 1: of targeted advertising functions in an automated fashion. Yeah, yeah, no, 589 00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:51,960 Speaker 1: there's no person there to apply human compassion and judgment. 590 00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:56,840 Speaker 1: There's no one. There's no one saying, Johnna constricted in day. 591 00:36:57,280 --> 00:37:01,000 Speaker 1: I feel like it's time for some diapers, right right, Yeah, 592 00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:04,600 Speaker 1: there's no diaper's buttons behind the scenes. I wish there were. 593 00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:07,440 Speaker 1: It would be hilarious to see, like there's just some 594 00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:11,600 Speaker 1: some mischievous, impish person sitting behind the scenes with a 595 00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:14,680 Speaker 1: massive panel of buttons, and different buttons for different things, 596 00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:21,120 Speaker 1: ones like one's like cheaper razor blades. Right, Jonathan, you've 597 00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:25,200 Speaker 1: been shifting in your seat. Here's an adverstool softener. I think, 598 00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:27,960 Speaker 1: what the heck is going on? Well, well, gaing him 599 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:32,040 Speaker 1: up to an eye poop. That's right, we'll be pitching 600 00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:35,400 Speaker 1: that later. So. One of the other things that Duncan 601 00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:38,120 Speaker 1: Riley pointed out in this piece that I thought was interesting. 602 00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:43,319 Speaker 1: He said that the other big push in online advertising 603 00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:45,640 Speaker 1: right now, apart from video ads, which I mean that 604 00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:48,479 Speaker 1: because a mobile, the mobile experienced video ads has become 605 00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:53,520 Speaker 1: a big thing, right the other skip this ad in five, Yeah, exactly, 606 00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:57,400 Speaker 1: the big The big one is um native advertising, which 607 00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:00,520 Speaker 1: to you guys out there may not mean very much. 608 00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:05,600 Speaker 1: To people in our position, it means our worst nightmare. 609 00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:08,520 Speaker 1: So what is native advertising for people who are not 610 00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:11,040 Speaker 1: Because that's a little bit of an inside baseball term. 611 00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:15,160 Speaker 1: Native advertising is when you get paid by a company 612 00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:18,880 Speaker 1: to produce a specific piece of content, typically one that 613 00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:23,400 Speaker 1: supports that company's products, also known as advertorial. Yes, and 614 00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:29,200 Speaker 1: a lot of if you do it really really well, 615 00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:32,200 Speaker 1: which is very hard to do. But if you do 616 00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:35,480 Speaker 1: it really really well, it can still be informative, it 617 00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:37,600 Speaker 1: can still be entertaining, and it can still do the 618 00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:42,000 Speaker 1: purpose of advertising whatever the product or services without it 619 00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:45,120 Speaker 1: feeling absolutely creepy on the part of the person who 620 00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:46,880 Speaker 1: had to write it. But it is really hard to 621 00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:51,360 Speaker 1: do that. Yeah, it can feel creepy for the people 622 00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:58,560 Speaker 1: creating this, because native advertising can put someone in an 623 00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:04,520 Speaker 1: ethical dilemma. Yes, wherein for instance, let's say Jonathan and 624 00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:10,799 Speaker 1: I have a have a show wherein we are going 625 00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:17,000 Speaker 1: to do a tech stuff about the technology behind strip mining, 626 00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:20,960 Speaker 1: all right, what I mean? Yeah, And while we're exploring that, 627 00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:25,839 Speaker 1: naturally you and I would say, well, here are some 628 00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:28,200 Speaker 1: things you need to know about strip mining. Here. Here's 629 00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:31,279 Speaker 1: like the environmental impact of strip mining. Right, here's the 630 00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:34,960 Speaker 1: historical significance, the political battles that have happened over strip mining. 631 00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:38,120 Speaker 1: Here's how it has affected people who live in areas 632 00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:41,760 Speaker 1: where strip mining happened. But if it were a piece 633 00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:45,360 Speaker 1: of native advertising where a mining company had paid for it, 634 00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:47,719 Speaker 1: and they said, all right, you can do pieces on it, 635 00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:49,839 Speaker 1: just don't mention any of those things, right right, and 636 00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:52,040 Speaker 1: don't call it strip mining. We have a new term. 637 00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:57,080 Speaker 1: We call it mineral hugs. Yeah, then that would be problematic. 638 00:39:57,120 --> 00:40:00,120 Speaker 1: And as as as Riley points out, he says that 639 00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:06,560 Speaker 1: you eventually end up with advertising pretending to be editorial. 640 00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:10,400 Speaker 1: He says, and that not only sucks if not labeled properly, 641 00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:15,719 Speaker 1: it's downright dishonest and constitutes deceiving your readers. And we 642 00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:18,279 Speaker 1: know you guys are smart, right, like the people who 643 00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:22,240 Speaker 1: are in the writer and editorial departments. We know you're smart. 644 00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:26,120 Speaker 1: We know that you can tell when something is something 645 00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:30,560 Speaker 1: is like that, oh buddy, yeah, anyone on the Internet, 646 00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:34,919 Speaker 1: although you'll hear all these stereotypes of people being credulous 647 00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:38,680 Speaker 1: in general. Yeah, more so than a radio or television audience. 648 00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:42,080 Speaker 1: People who listen to podcasts, people who go online for 649 00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:48,239 Speaker 1: their news or entertainment are very, very aware of this. 650 00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:51,640 Speaker 1: They can sense, they can like they're like Matt Murdoch, Well, 651 00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:53,839 Speaker 1: for one thing, one thing, we've been sold to all 652 00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:57,080 Speaker 1: our lives. We in America, we have grown up in 653 00:40:57,120 --> 00:41:02,560 Speaker 1: a culture of advertising and selling, and after a while, 654 00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:07,520 Speaker 1: you get good at recognizing it. Right. So that's that 655 00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:10,000 Speaker 1: That's an argument that often comes up when it when 656 00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:13,520 Speaker 1: it gets down to sales versus editorial, which not doesn't 657 00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:16,960 Speaker 1: happen that frequently, but it has happened. Then the editorial 658 00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:19,239 Speaker 1: will say, listen, this is a road we don't want 659 00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:21,640 Speaker 1: to go down because it is a bad experience for 660 00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:25,200 Speaker 1: our audience. They recognize what it is right away. It 661 00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:27,200 Speaker 1: is very hard to do well, and it doesn't work 662 00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:30,160 Speaker 1: for the advertising right. It doesn't do anyone in any favors. Right. 663 00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:34,600 Speaker 1: It tells the audience we don't we don't we don't 664 00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:37,960 Speaker 1: value your intelligence. We don't think that you're smart enough 665 00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:40,400 Speaker 1: to realize that this is essentially an advertisement you're reading 666 00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:44,160 Speaker 1: um and audience ends up saying well, if you don't 667 00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:47,800 Speaker 1: value me, I don't value you, let alone the products 668 00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:50,719 Speaker 1: you're trying to sell. So I'm out and we know this, 669 00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:54,080 Speaker 1: and and so native advertising is one of those things 670 00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:58,640 Speaker 1: that again, if you do it very transparently and if 671 00:41:58,719 --> 00:42:01,839 Speaker 1: you are very careful, I think you can do it 672 00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:05,800 Speaker 1: well if you have a separation of I guess a 673 00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:08,799 Speaker 1: separation church and state in a way. Yeah, that's a 674 00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:12,680 Speaker 1: phrase that we've used before wherein so let's say, just 675 00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:16,120 Speaker 1: for an example, let's say, ladies and gentlemen, that Jonathan 676 00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:22,319 Speaker 1: does a show for just your average everyday podcast, right 677 00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:25,759 Speaker 1: it's tech Stuff. Does a tech Stuff episode is approached 678 00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:29,360 Speaker 1: by someone who wants them to do some native advertising 679 00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:33,680 Speaker 1: for let's see a cell phone? Sure, right, yeah, those 680 00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:40,840 Speaker 1: are popular. And then Jonathan, with the editorial oversight, would say, well, 681 00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:44,360 Speaker 1: if we do this, I want it to be clear, 682 00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:48,600 Speaker 1: this is brought to you by right, you know whomever, right, 683 00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:50,799 Speaker 1: and just say like so, people who listen to it 684 00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:52,800 Speaker 1: from the very beginning, they know what they're getting into 685 00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:56,680 Speaker 1: and that they trust me to give them information that 686 00:42:57,000 --> 00:43:01,440 Speaker 1: is that is honest. It may be that due to 687 00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:03,920 Speaker 1: that agreement, there's certain things I'm not allowed to talk 688 00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:07,280 Speaker 1: about for whatever reason. But as long as I'm completely 689 00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:11,440 Speaker 1: honest upfront and just say, you know, this is this 690 00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:13,239 Speaker 1: episode is brought to you by so and so, we're 691 00:43:13,239 --> 00:43:15,960 Speaker 1: going to talk about their product today. Here's what I 692 00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:20,600 Speaker 1: have to say about it. That's that's okay. It's even 693 00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:23,680 Speaker 1: better if they give you full editorial control where you 694 00:43:23,719 --> 00:43:27,240 Speaker 1: can like you can say, like, can I say things 695 00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:29,680 Speaker 1: that may be a little critical of the product, as 696 00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:32,520 Speaker 1: long as I'm being fair, like I'm not attacking, but 697 00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:36,000 Speaker 1: I'm bringing up concerns people have had because if I 698 00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:40,120 Speaker 1: don't do it, my listeners well being objective, being at 699 00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:44,400 Speaker 1: the forefront of this. What I love about the line 700 00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:49,920 Speaker 1: of argument we're looking at here is that the editor 701 00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:54,640 Speaker 1: the publishing question is absolutely correct. It's a new it's 702 00:43:54,880 --> 00:44:00,360 Speaker 1: a more evolved form of targeted advertising, because then the 703 00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:06,239 Speaker 1: target becomes not just someone who looked at someone who 704 00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:10,959 Speaker 1: googled something three times in the past week. It becomes 705 00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:15,759 Speaker 1: any audience member that trusts you yes and that, and 706 00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:20,040 Speaker 1: then all of a sudden that there's this prepackaged demographic 707 00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:25,560 Speaker 1: assuming that you have any you know, perceived integrity and reputation, 708 00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:31,319 Speaker 1: then absolutely no, your reputation precedes you. Yeah, I'd like 709 00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:35,640 Speaker 1: to think that people believe I have integrity. If you 710 00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:39,680 Speaker 1: do not think I have integrity, please feel free to 711 00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:42,240 Speaker 1: feel free to send an email to stuff you should 712 00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:46,560 Speaker 1: know with this, with this targeting stuff, as you said, 713 00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:50,120 Speaker 1: it is difficult to do, it can be done, it 714 00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:54,480 Speaker 1: can be done well. For example, the Daily Show under 715 00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:59,560 Speaker 1: John Stewart's regime. Yeah, under John Stewart's run on the show, 716 00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:03,680 Speaker 1: they had Arby's as a sponsor, right, And what was 717 00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:06,840 Speaker 1: hilarious about it is every time they brought up Arby's 718 00:45:07,120 --> 00:45:11,200 Speaker 1: they talked massive amounts of trash about Arby's. Yeah, but 719 00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:15,600 Speaker 1: but to the point where Arby's got the joke. Yeah, 720 00:45:15,640 --> 00:45:19,759 Speaker 1: and they incorporated the joke themselves. On his last episode, 721 00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:22,680 Speaker 1: there was like a statement from arby saying we'll miss 722 00:45:22,719 --> 00:45:25,960 Speaker 1: you John. And I just thought like that's amazing, Like, 723 00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:29,319 Speaker 1: how many companies do you know that are that saving Yeah, 724 00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:34,480 Speaker 1: that would say like, look, this is this they're having fun. 725 00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:39,400 Speaker 1: They're not really trying to damage our brand. That's not 726 00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:42,920 Speaker 1: what it's really about. Let's just have fun too. I mean, 727 00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:45,680 Speaker 1: that's a hard decision to make because you could. If 728 00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:48,560 Speaker 1: you feel your brand is under attack, right, then you 729 00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:50,520 Speaker 1: know you want to go on the offense as soon 730 00:45:50,560 --> 00:45:53,000 Speaker 1: as possible. Right. So that's the reason why a certain 731 00:45:53,120 --> 00:45:57,880 Speaker 1: bombastic cable provider hasn't just gone the whole nine yards 732 00:45:57,960 --> 00:46:00,440 Speaker 1: yet and use the monopoly man in Darth Bay as 733 00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:06,440 Speaker 1: their sponsored right. Yeah. I hope you enjoyed that conversation 734 00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:08,880 Speaker 1: about the problem with ads, because we're going to continue 735 00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:11,920 Speaker 1: it next week because this is a two parter. But yeah, 736 00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:14,640 Speaker 1: Ben and I ended up talking a lot about that 737 00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:18,160 Speaker 1: back in twenty sixteen, and clearly we could have a 738 00:46:18,200 --> 00:46:22,000 Speaker 1: whole new conversation that's twice as long if we were 739 00:46:22,040 --> 00:46:24,160 Speaker 1: to have it today. And maybe I will see if 740 00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:25,520 Speaker 1: I can get him back on the show to talk 741 00:46:25,560 --> 00:46:29,080 Speaker 1: about this again. It's I mean, he is a busy dude, 742 00:46:29,160 --> 00:46:32,560 Speaker 1: like I'm busy, But man, I don't know how Ben 743 00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:35,719 Speaker 1: gets everything done because that guy, he works on so 744 00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:41,280 Speaker 1: many shows and it's just he's tireless, and it's it's 745 00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:44,840 Speaker 1: inspiring and intimidating. If you have suggestions for topics I 746 00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:48,080 Speaker 1: should cover in future episodes of Tech Stuff, please reach out. 747 00:46:48,200 --> 00:46:50,400 Speaker 1: You can download the iHeartRadio app if you want to 748 00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:53,320 Speaker 1: it's free to download, free to use. You can navigate 749 00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:55,560 Speaker 1: over to tech Stuff using a little search field, and 750 00:46:55,640 --> 00:46:58,239 Speaker 1: there you will see there's a little microphone icon. If 751 00:46:58,239 --> 00:46:59,759 Speaker 1: you click on that, you can leave me a voice 752 00:46:59,800 --> 00:47:01,799 Speaker 1: means and chip to thirty seconds in length. Let me 753 00:47:01,840 --> 00:47:04,520 Speaker 1: know what you would like to hear, or if you prefer, 754 00:47:04,920 --> 00:47:08,600 Speaker 1: you can tweet me. The handle that we use for 755 00:47:08,640 --> 00:47:11,880 Speaker 1: the show is tech Stuff HSW. Let me know what 756 00:47:12,040 --> 00:47:14,560 Speaker 1: I should cover in future episodes of tech Stuff and 757 00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:23,680 Speaker 1: I will talk to you again and really soon. Tech 758 00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:28,120 Speaker 1: Stuff is an iHeartRadio production. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, 759 00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:32,200 Speaker 1: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 760 00:47:32,239 --> 00:47:33,280 Speaker 1: to your favorite shows.