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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Does it never end with

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Speaker 1: this woman? Do you remember these so called suitcase Killer

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Speaker 1: aka also known as Heather Mac, spoiled bratt, raised in

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Speaker 1: the lap of luxury, who attacked her mother so many

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Speaker 1: times and their luck's home the neighbors knew police were

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Speaker 1: up and down the street at all hours of the

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Speaker 1: day or night with Heather Mac attacking her mother, who,

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Speaker 1: trying to make peace with her daughter, takes daughter Heather

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Speaker 1: Mac on an all expense paid trip to Bolli. Well

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Speaker 1: she didn't make it back home. Let's just put it

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Speaker 1: like that. She ended up dead, folded up in a suitcase,

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Speaker 1: oozing blood outside a five star resort. And somehow Heather

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Speaker 1: Mack got away, well not for long. She and her boyfriend,

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Speaker 1: both of them living off the dead mom, ended up

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Speaker 1: in jail there in Bali. Somehow she gets pregnant, always

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Speaker 1: a surprise with Heather Mac gives birth to baby Stella.

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Speaker 1: In the latest twist, Heather Mac makes the headlines again

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Speaker 1: and not in a good way. I Nancy Grace, this

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Speaker 1: is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here

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Speaker 1: at Fox Nation and Serious XM one eleven. Heather Mac

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Speaker 1: back in the news again. Now, this woman is not

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Speaker 1: known for her wonderful mother daughter relationships, so maybe this

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Speaker 1: is a good thing. Joining me Crime Online dot Com

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Speaker 1: investigative reporter Dave Mack. Why won't Heather Mac go away?

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Speaker 1: What's the latest? Heather Mac was released from an Indonesian

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Speaker 1: prison in twenty twenty one and deported back to the US.

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Speaker 1: Before arriving in her home country, Max said she was

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Speaker 1: afraid to return to the US because of what her

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Speaker 1: daughter might learn. Mack was immediately arrested when she returned

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Speaker 1: to Chicago and charged with conspiracy and obstruction of justice

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Speaker 1: relating to her mother's murder. A fight brood over who

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Speaker 1: would have custody of the now seven year old Stella.

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Speaker 1: A family friend of Heather Max's mother filed for temporary custody,

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Speaker 1: and the girl's paternal grandmother also made a bid for

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Speaker 1: a relationship with the girl, as had Max's cousins Lisa Hellman.

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Speaker 1: With her mother's arrest in the US, the girl went

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Speaker 1: into foster care, and now a judge has ruled that

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Speaker 1: the woman who raised the girl in Indonesia while Max

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Speaker 1: served time there, will have temporary custody. The caretaker, oh

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Speaker 1: Shar Swartama has reunited with the seven year old after

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Speaker 1: the child's therapist told the judge that Stella quote perceives

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Speaker 1: Suhartoma as her mother and the primary caretaker in her life.

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Speaker 1: The Swhartoma family is leasing a home in Illinois for now.

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Speaker 1: This is just the latest in a long series of

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Speaker 1: horrific events, all of them caused by Heather Mack. She

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Speaker 1: brought pain and suffering to her whole family and now

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Speaker 1: to her little girl. I'm so happy a child is

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Speaker 1: being raised by someone that loves her and that little

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Speaker 1: Stella will not be in any danger God willing. But

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Speaker 1: how did the whole thing happen? What started this turn

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Speaker 1: of events? Take a listen. Two neighbors who did not

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Speaker 1: want to go on camera tell me that Sheila von

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Speaker 1: Weis Mac lived inside this oh park Holm for many

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Speaker 1: many years, but she moved about a year ago, selling

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Speaker 1: it to a developer. This morning, neighbors here are horrified

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Speaker 1: to hear of her murder. Police officials say that remains

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Speaker 1: were stuff into a suitcase and found on the Indonesian

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Speaker 1: resort island of Bali. The discovery was made Tuesday. The

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Speaker 1: body was inside the trunk of a taxi parked in

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Speaker 1: front of the upscale Saint Regis Hotel. She was half

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Speaker 1: naked with wounds to her head, according to police, half naked,

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Speaker 1: beaten about the head, her bloody bodies crammed into a

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Speaker 1: suitcase and left outside of a hotel about the Saint Regis.

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Speaker 1: Wasn't too happy to see a suitcase with blood easing out.

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Speaker 1: You were just hearing reporter Jessica Denofrio ABC seven. We're

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Speaker 1: talking about the murdered victim, But who was the murdered victim?

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Speaker 1: In life? Sheila Vanuis Mack. Take a listen to our

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Speaker 1: friends at crime Online. Friends describe she live on Weissmack

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Speaker 1: as a lovely and cultured woman, well connected politically. Before

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Speaker 1: her marriage, she was a political science student at Men's

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Speaker 1: College in Boston. She took a job working for Senator

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Speaker 1: Ted Kennedy doing research and other odd jobs. She told

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Speaker 1: friends she even poured tea for Rose Kennedy at time

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Speaker 1: or two. After leaving Senator Kennedy's camp, Sheila went to

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Speaker 1: work for Jackie Kennedy. While studying for a PhD at

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Speaker 1: the University of Chicago. She was friends with famed novelist

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Speaker 1: Saul Bellow, who was awarded a Pulitzer Prize, the Nobel

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Speaker 1: Prize for Literature, and the National Medal of Arts. Wow,

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Speaker 1: that's pretty impressive. So that's the mom has found stuffed

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Speaker 1: in a suitcase. But who is Heather Mack's father? Listen

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Speaker 1: to this. James Mack was a well known educator, composer,

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Speaker 1: and arranger. He first taught jazz studies at Crane Junior College,

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Speaker 1: Chicago's oldest city college. Mac is credited for teaching a

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Speaker 1: generation of up and coming musicians who would go on

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Speaker 1: to become internationally famous, including some of the founding members

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Speaker 1: of Earth Wind and Fire and others who were longtime

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Speaker 1: session play for Muddy Waters, BB King, Phil Collins, and others.

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Speaker 1: He also moonlighted as an arranger and producer for record

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Speaker 1: labels including Chess Capital and Colombia, and served as a

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Speaker 1: guest conductor for the Chicago Symphony Orchestra. Mac already had

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Speaker 1: a son and four daughters by two previous marriages when

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Speaker 1: he married Sheila von Weiss, twenty two years his junior,

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Speaker 1: at the age of sixty six, despite having health problems,

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Speaker 1: Mac became a new dad. Wow, so both parents brilliant

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Speaker 1: in their own way. She a very cultured, sophisticated, educated

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Speaker 1: woman married to a jazz star, a composer and arranger.

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Speaker 1: You know, before I introduced the whole panel, I just

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Speaker 1: got to ask his Cheryl McCollum, director of the Coalcase

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Speaker 1: ree Starch Institute and forensics expert, how can two such wonderful,

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Speaker 1: brilliant parents have a devil's spawn like Heather Mack? How

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Speaker 1: that happened? This is a very unusual case. It's a

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Speaker 1: very unusual situation. Normally you do not see this in

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Speaker 1: a homicide case of this magnitude. So we know about

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Speaker 1: the mom, we know about the dad. What about the area?

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Speaker 1: Where did this child who turns into a killer. Let

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Speaker 1: me tell you, match side killing your mother is very

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Speaker 1: very rare parenthicide. Listen to this. The mac holme was

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Speaker 1: well known by Oak Park Police. Between January two thousand

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Speaker 1: and four and June twenty thirteen, officers responded to eighty

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Speaker 1: six calls on a variety of charges, including domestic violence, theft,

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Speaker 1: missing person, and nine hang ups. The relationship between mother

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Speaker 1: and daughter was tenuous. Cook County juvenile records show that

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Speaker 1: Heathermack was arrested in December twenty eleven on domestic battery,

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Speaker 1: aggravated battery, and battery charges involving violence against her mother.

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Speaker 1: Many of the calls before this incidents include alleged physical

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Speaker 1: violence against she live on wife's mac, such as biting, punching,

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Speaker 1: and hitting. Reports say one incident caused the mom to

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Speaker 1: break her arm. A guilty verdict lended heathermac in mandatory

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Speaker 1: counseling with a focus on anger management. WHOA why did

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Speaker 1: they call it a tenuous relationship between mother and daughter?

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Speaker 1: This girl was beating the hblel out of her own mother.

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Speaker 1: Did you hear that? Eighty six calls to the home

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Speaker 1: and this is a very ritzy area. It's a mansion there.

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Speaker 1: I said it, beautiful area. No crime that we know of.

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Speaker 1: Eighty six called. And when you hear domestic matter, you

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Speaker 1: usually think it's the husband or the male partner beating

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Speaker 1: up the wife. It's the daughter, Heather Mack beating on mom.

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Speaker 1: Let me introduce you our all star panel. Indy Patrick,

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Speaker 1: California prosecutor, author of Red Flags on Amazon. You can

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Speaker 1: find her at Wendy Patrick PhD dot com or on

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Speaker 1: Today with Doctor Wendy KCBQ and San Diego doctor Jory

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Speaker 1: cross In psychologist faculty, Saint Leo University, Research consultant, author

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Speaker 1: of Sestop Stop Officers Suicide. Cheryl McCollough, Founder Director, Coldcase

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Speaker 1: Research Institute, forensics expert. You can find her at Coldcase

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Speaker 1: Crimes dot Org. Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University,

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Speaker 1: author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. But first

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Speaker 1: to Christy Missouri, Emmy Award winning investigative reporter, joining us

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Speaker 1: from Crime online dot Com. Christy Missourich, why wait, let

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Speaker 1: me understand this. So there have been eighty six nine

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Speaker 1: one one calls to this mansion where the victim, Sheila

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Speaker 1: vanus Mac lives with the daughter, but the mom still

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Speaker 1: wants to men to bridges with the devil daughter and

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Speaker 1: take her on an all expense paid trip to Bolli.

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Speaker 1: What is it true, Christy Missouri that Sheila's friends said,

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Speaker 1: don't take her on a vacation, don't be alone with her.

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Speaker 1: They were very concerned and family friends kept pleading with her,

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Speaker 1: keep her here in the States, let her walk away.

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Speaker 1: She was eighteen years old at the time. Heather always

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Speaker 1: maintained it was her mother who created the dysfunctional, codependent

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Speaker 1: love hate relationship. Really who had the broken arm? Right?

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Speaker 1: She blamed her mom for what she claims was drunken

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Speaker 1: squandering of her father's estate after he died from cancer

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Speaker 1: when she was about ten years old. Oh because later

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Speaker 1: on she claims her mother murdered her father. Correct, he

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Speaker 1: died of cancer. Right. Take a listen to reporter Matt

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Speaker 1: Doran and Chris Hansen at Crime Watched Daily. She was becoming,

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Speaker 1: you know, very defiant and not wanting to listen to

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Speaker 1: any rules. And Sheila and I had many, many talks,

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Speaker 1: and you know, I said, you know, there's a reason

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Speaker 1: the term trouble teen is out there. But did Heather's

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Speaker 1: troubles go beyond that of a normal teen? She started

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Speaker 1: skipping school, hanging out with a rougher crowd, and even

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Speaker 1: began stealing large sums of money from her own mom.

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Speaker 1: What did she tell you about what was going on

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Speaker 1: behind cystals? Well, she told me that she was being

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Speaker 1: abused by Heather. I mean she was constantly being attacked

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Speaker 1: physically and haven't had an explosive temper, I mean, no

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Speaker 1: question about that. Tim he erupted at the slightest provocation.

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Another update in the story

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Speaker 1: of Heather Mac born with a silver spin in her mouth,

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Speaker 1: only to go on and murder the person that loved

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Speaker 1: her the most in the world, her own mother. Now

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Speaker 1: back to the case, This poor mom was literally being

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Speaker 1: beaten up by her daughter, Heather Mac, but instead of

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Speaker 1: kicking her out, she decides to take her to mend

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Speaker 1: Bridges on an all expense paid trip to BOLLI explain

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Speaker 1: that to me, doctor Jory, mother's love is unconditional, boy,

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Speaker 1: that's for sure, and unfortunately is deadly. You know, she's

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Speaker 1: trying to do the best she can as far as,

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Speaker 1: like you say, mending that relationship and thinking maybe if

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Speaker 1: I can just get away with her and relax and

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Speaker 1: spend some time with her and maybe talk things out.

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Speaker 1: Growing up on what doctor joy Crossen just said. Mom,

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Speaker 1: Sheila trying desperately to get her daughter to a different environment.

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Speaker 1: Some were beautiful, some were calm and relaxing, joyful. What's

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Speaker 1: more beautiful than BALI. I mean, I've never been there,

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Speaker 1: but I've looked at pictures and it just seems like

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Speaker 1: heaven on earth. So she spends a ton of money

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Speaker 1: to take her daughter away, just the two of them,

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Speaker 1: mother daughter. It would be a great environment to start

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Speaker 1: mending and starting the healing process in that relationship exactly. Well,

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Speaker 1: she sure got a surprise when she got there. Take

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Speaker 1: a listen to Chris Hanson a crime Watch daily for

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Speaker 1: There's boyfriend suddenly arrived on the twelve thousand dollars flight

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Speaker 1: from Chicago. She had no idea Tommy was coming. Sheila

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Speaker 1: had wanted Heather to come on the trip to get

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Speaker 1: her away from people she considered bad influences. Is the

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Speaker 1: last person in the world she wanted to see in

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Speaker 1: BALI was him. And so then the question is, well,

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Speaker 1: how did he get there? I mean his twelve thousand

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Speaker 1: dollars for an airplane taking in addition to the room

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Speaker 1: he'd been saying, Tommy's entire trip was being financed by

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Speaker 1: a credit card Heather had taken from her mom. All

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Speaker 1: accounts Sheila was living. Who is this guy? Christy Missourich

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Speaker 1: joinding us from crime online dot com. Who is this guy?

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Speaker 1: He is the love of Hoather Max life that would

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Speaker 1: get her throne in jail. Tommy Schaeffer kind of a

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Speaker 1: street thog from He's from an affluent family, but he

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Speaker 1: liked to hang kind of with some foggy type of

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Speaker 1: people in downtown Chicago. I don't get that. What is that,

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Speaker 1: Shery McCallum. You and I have seen that many times.

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Speaker 1: Let me go to Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor, host, author

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Speaker 1: of Red Flags and host of Today with Doctor Wendy. Wendy,

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Speaker 1: I've seen that where teens children are born with a

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Speaker 1: silver spin in their mouth. Their parents bend over backwards

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Speaker 1: to do everything they can for them, but they want

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Speaker 1: to hang out with thugs and go get in trouble.

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Speaker 1: That's more fun than going to a recital or a

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Speaker 1: prayer meeting. No, they want to hang out with the

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Speaker 1: bad guys. Yeah, bad boys and dark heroes and learning

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Speaker 1: that bad company corrupts character, as we say. And you know,

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Speaker 1: my parents used to say, show me your friends, and

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Speaker 1: I'll show you your future. I think we should still

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Speaker 1: see that today because this kind of dynamic is very common,

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Speaker 1: and it's not just common with young teens. You know,

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Speaker 1: we wish that this would be something somebody would grow

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Speaker 1: out of. But what cases like this illustrate is this

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Speaker 1: permeates culture sometimes even when people are young adults, and

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Speaker 1: god forbid, even when we become adults, do you mean

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Speaker 1: you gravitate toward that Bengali type person, the life of

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Speaker 1: the party, the dangerous one. Is that something in human nature?

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Speaker 1: You know, in human nature we tend to see that

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Speaker 1: in some types of personalities. It is certainly not something

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Speaker 1: universal that everybody needs to worry about. But when you

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Speaker 1: see this kind of a pattern, and when you see

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Speaker 1: this kind of a pattern, dispite the upbringing that this

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Speaker 1: young woman had, you have to wonder how did this start?

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Speaker 1: What all did you know the socialization process playing it?

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Speaker 1: Or is this just somebody who preferred that kind of

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Speaker 1: a dangerous, living on the edge lifestyle. Whatever the explanation is,

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Speaker 1: we certainly know how it turned out here, you know,

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Speaker 1: Schryl McCollum. You and I have been in court a

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Speaker 1: lot of times together, and I have seen where children, teams,

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Speaker 1: adults with every advantage in the world gravitate toward what

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Speaker 1: is dark and evil and end up getting dragged down

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Speaker 1: with it. No question, Sometimes that criminal element it's just sexier,

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Speaker 1: it's a more interesting story. It's kind of living on

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Speaker 1: the edge, and it's got this thrill to it. A

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Speaker 1: lot of people get kind of sucked into that. But

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Speaker 1: I think it's important to talk about the eighty six

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Speaker 1: times police were involved. This has nothing to do with

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Speaker 1: the boyfriend. This is her nathy. If you were talking

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Speaker 1: about eighty six robberies or eighty six VUIs, we would

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Speaker 1: be losing our mind. While this person was not in jail.

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Speaker 1: I'll tell you why she wasn't in jail. The mother

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Speaker 1: would never wanted her prosecuted. She would beat the mother up,

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Speaker 1: This wealthy, cultured, educated mom. Her daughter would beat her

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Speaker 1: to smithereens, but she didn't want her daughter to have

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Speaker 1: a jail record. Finally, the police insisted, and she was

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Speaker 1: found guilty of abusing her own mother. Oh, I'm not

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Speaker 1: putting the onus on the boyfriend. She saught this out herself,

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Speaker 1: and you're right, she had horns sprouting from day one

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Speaker 1: before she met the boyfriend. But it is quite the

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Speaker 1: co Inkie Dean right that just ten hours after the

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Speaker 1: boyfriend's plane touches down, we got problems. Take a listen

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Speaker 1: to Matt Doran and Chris Hansen Crime Watched Daily. Ten

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Speaker 1: hours after the wheels of Tommy's plane hit the ground

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Speaker 1: in Bali, surveillance cameras capture him entering Sheila's hotel room

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Speaker 1: with the handle of a metal fruit bowl stuffed under

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Speaker 1: his shirt. About an hour after that, Heather and Tommy

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Speaker 1: are seen heading to the lobby with a silver suitcase,

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Speaker 1: which they placed in the back of attachee before running off.

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Speaker 1: It's not until the driver takes the abandoned luggage to

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Speaker 1: the police station that they find out what's inside the bloodied,

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Speaker 1: half naked body of Sheila von we Smack. She had

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Speaker 1: been blooded repeatedly before asphyxiating on her own blood. So

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Speaker 1: where were Tommy and Heather for just less than a die?

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Speaker 1: The media painted his pairs a modern day Bunny and Clyde.

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Speaker 1: Young American fugitives won't for a particularly brutal murder, but

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Speaker 1: the time on the run wouldn't here at this budget

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Speaker 1: motel list than a mile from the crime scene. Staff

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Speaker 1: aluting police after becoming suspicious that the lovers had checked

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Speaker 1: in without any luggage. Jo Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, Shacksonville

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Speaker 1: State University and author of Blood Beneath My Feet? Jo Scott,

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Speaker 1: how did this loving mother who sacrificed so much? How

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Speaker 1: does she actually die? And then I want to talk

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Speaker 1: to you about the phenomena that you and I have

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Speaker 1: encountered many times of stuffing bodies in suitcases. Yeah, let

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Speaker 1: me paint a picture for you, Nancy. In the report

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Speaker 1: that was given forth by the forensic expert at the hospital.

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Speaker 1: Keep in mind, this is not like being in America.

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Speaker 1: They're in Bali, Okay. But the report that came from

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Speaker 1: there states that not only was she beaten about the head, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: she's beaten about the face. And you want to know

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Speaker 1: what that says to me? She saw this coming, She

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Speaker 1: was looking. She was looking for as long as she could.

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Speaker 1: She probably wound up being blinded, either by her own

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Speaker 1: blood or maybe maybe her optic nerves became dislodged. But

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Speaker 1: she had an awareness. Her facial bones were fractured, her

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Speaker 1: skull has been fractured. And Nancy, I'll tell you how else.

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Speaker 1: I know that she had an awareness. She had fractures

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Speaker 1: on her arms and her hands, multiple contusions otherwise known

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Speaker 1: as bruising. And her cause of death, remember what the

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Speaker 1: what was just said, she actually suffocated, Nancy. When she suffocated,

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Speaker 1: more than likely, and this is just MEO pining here.

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Speaker 1: Her facial bones were fractured, so she would have literally

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Speaker 1: inhalated the bone and the blood that we can normally,

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Speaker 1: you know, we can normally process something that it might

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Speaker 1: be an our mouth and our airway. We can. But

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Speaker 1: she was so debilitated but still clinging to life. And

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Speaker 1: so when they went to do the autopsy on her

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Speaker 1: and they opened up her away, Nancy, her lungs would

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Speaker 1: not only have been filled with her own blood in

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Speaker 1: the tiny little air sacks, you would have sent fragmented

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Speaker 1: pieces of bone in there potentially as well. It would

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Speaker 1: have been an excruciy, excruciating way to die. It is

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Speaker 1: just beyond the pale. This gives an indication of the

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Speaker 1: level of violence, and Nancy, I'm gonna I don't want

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Speaker 1: to bury the lead here, but I gotta tell you

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Speaker 1: I know where you're going with this. He came down

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Speaker 1: there with specific intent. He flew down there. They had

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Speaker 1: a plan. This was premeditated. He went down there as

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Speaker 1: an assassin. He assassinated this poor little woman, Yes he did,

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Speaker 1: with her own daughter leading the attack. And then the

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Speaker 1: horror of you know what. I remember going to a

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Speaker 1: circus with the twins, the big one, Barnum, Barnum and Bailey,

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Speaker 1: and there was a contortionist. There were two of them.

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Speaker 1: I think they were sisters, and they could wrap their

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Speaker 1: bodies like they would fold them up. They'd fold up

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Speaker 1: their body and go in a suitcase and close the

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Speaker 1: suit It was a box, a suitcase, and we couldn't

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Speaker 1: believe it because it's very small. And I remember thinking,

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Speaker 1: how did she do that? And now I'm thinking about

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Speaker 1: this mom, her body being crunched and folded over and

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Speaker 1: crammed into a suitcase. How did that happen? Listen to

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Speaker 1: Alex Perez GMA this morning, A gruesome discovery near the

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Speaker 1: upscale seeing Regis Resorts in Bali is something shock waves

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Speaker 1: from there all the way here to Chicago. Authorities finding

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Speaker 1: the body of vacationing American at the Sheila Vannuismack, stuffed

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Speaker 1: inside this silver suitcase. The luggage left in the trunk

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Speaker 1: of this cab contained for questioning. Now came Mac's own

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Speaker 1: nineteen year old daughter, Heather and her boyfriend, Tommy Schaeffer.

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Speaker 1: Heather Mac and Shaeffer were arrested Wednesday at a hotel

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Speaker 1: about six miles away from the resort, telling investigators they

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Speaker 1: had escaped after being kidnapped by armed gang members who

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Speaker 1: murdered her mother. But investigators say surveillance video shows the

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Speaker 1: mother and daughter arguing in the hours before the murderer. Later,

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Speaker 1: police ate the young couple called for a taxi, placing

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Speaker 1: several suitcases inside before going back in the hotel to

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Speaker 1: check out. They said when they didn't return, hotel security

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Speaker 1: discovered the suitcase, so they put their mom's body crunched up,

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Speaker 1: folded up into a suitcase, stick it in, leave it

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Speaker 1: out front for a taxi to put into the taxi,

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Speaker 1: and then they go into check out and run. My

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Speaker 1: understanding is I guess through the woods to get away

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Speaker 1: out in the back door, literally running out the back

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Speaker 1: door to get away to you. Cheryl McCollum, director of

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Speaker 1: the Cold Case Research Institute. The way they treated her body,

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Speaker 1: folding her up, literally folding her up and stuffing her

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Speaker 1: into suitcase. I wonder if Heather Max sat on top

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Speaker 1: of it while the boyfriend managed to close it. It

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Speaker 1: is more grotesque than that. They used tape to wrap

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Speaker 1: around her to hold her in place so that she

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Speaker 1: would fit. So this took some time and it was bloody.

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Speaker 1: It was a horrific scene. You can even see on

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Speaker 1: the outside of the luggage when they take the garbage

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Speaker 1: bag off it's just saturated with her blood. You know,

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Speaker 1: we're so used to analyzing evidence, Wendy Patrick, that when

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Speaker 1: you hear a comment like that the suitcase was saturated

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Speaker 1: with the mother's blood, a lot of times we just

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Speaker 1: make a note of it because we're going to use

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Speaker 1: that in a closing statement. Think about that for a moment, though, Wendy.

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Speaker 1: The suitcase was saturated with her mother's blood. She bound

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Speaker 1: her mother with a duct tape, her body folded over

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Speaker 1: and contorted to fit into a suitcase. Yeah, you know

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Speaker 1: what that tells me? And what you know, even if

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Speaker 1: the human being haven't been a prosecutor for so many years,

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Speaker 1: is the amount of time that the mother suffered. I

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Speaker 1: don't think anyone can think through what happened here, even

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Speaker 1: if you were just to hear about the injuries and

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Speaker 1: not feel how long that mother suffered, and at the

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Speaker 1: hands of her own daughter, who she loved enough to

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Speaker 1: forgive all of those years of abuse. Eighty six calls

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Speaker 1: to the how you know the mother's love the family

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Speaker 1: first mentality for this mother ended up being fatal to you.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Jory cross In psychologist faculty Saint Leo Author, Doctor

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Speaker 1: Jory what does that tell you about how she considered

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Speaker 1: her mother. But you know the level of violence, there's

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Speaker 1: always the close relationship. I mean, you can just about

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Speaker 1: There's been a lot of research to show that, you know,

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Speaker 1: the more violence, the closer the relationship. I agree with

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Speaker 1: Joe that you know, the boyfriend showed up over there

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Speaker 1: with a plan to kill her, and when they got together,

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Speaker 1: Heather and the boyfriend, you know, there's energy, but there's

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Speaker 1: also what's called synergy. I mean, it just synergizes this

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Speaker 1: level of violence. And it's documented in all the wounds

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Speaker 1: to the body and how vicious the attack was. And

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Speaker 1: I want to go to you, Jessica Morgan. Patricide is

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Speaker 1: very very rare, actually, especially the murder of your own mother. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it is, and it's not something that you come across

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Speaker 1: every day. I've worked cases in my career, and you know, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: I've got to tell you those cases that I have

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Speaker 1: worked when you begin to rate them, and this is

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Speaker 1: only my little slice of the world, my little slice,

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Speaker 1: but from what I have observed, those were traditionally some

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Speaker 1: of the most violent cases that I ever encountered, and

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Speaker 1: I think a lot of it has to do with

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Speaker 1: anger time stories with Nancy Grace. The story of Heather Mack.

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Speaker 1: I say story because it sounds like it's out of

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Speaker 1: a novel or a horror movie. Murdering her own mother,

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Speaker 1: going on the lamb, giving birth to a baby behind bars.

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Speaker 1: How did the whole thing get set in motion? How

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Speaker 1: did this story begin to unfold? Match aside, The murder

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Speaker 1: of your own mother makes up a little less than

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Speaker 1: two percent of all homicides. It is very very rare,

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Speaker 1: even for people that's for some reason hate their mother.

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Speaker 1: To kill your mother, very very rare. So how has

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Speaker 1: she been spending her time behind bars? Take a listen

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Speaker 1: to our friends at Inside Edition. Not exactly a hard time,

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Speaker 1: is it? That's mom? Kill her? Heather Matt having fun

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Speaker 1: dancing while she's in prison on the island Paradise of Bolly.

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Speaker 1: Heather is wearing makeup and books Happy Go Lucky as

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Speaker 1: she playfully sticks her tongue out. And here's the twenty

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Speaker 1: year old Chicago raised Harris in trendy shades, a big

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Speaker 1: smile on her face. Heather and her boyfriend Tommy Shaffer

426
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:18,600
Speaker 1: were convicted of murdering her mother and stuffing the body

427
00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:22,360
Speaker 1: into a suitcase during a vacation in Bali last year.

428
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:26,480
Speaker 1: Japer is doing eighteen years. Heather got ten. The young

429
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 1: lover's daughter, Stella, was born in prison. This video shows

430
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:41,840
Speaker 1: Shaffer cradling Stella while mom was dancing. The prison where

431
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:44,520
Speaker 1: Heather and her boyfriend are being held has been described

432
00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:47,479
Speaker 1: as a hell hole, but it sure doesn't look like

433
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:51,959
Speaker 1: that in this new video. Okay, I don't understand Chrissy mssuric.

434
00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:58,040
Speaker 1: How is she wearing makeup and dancing and mugging at

435
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:04,040
Speaker 1: a camera with her baby behind bars? So in Indonesia

436
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:08,000
Speaker 1: moms can stay with their kids behind bars for up

437
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:11,840
Speaker 1: to two years. Also, what I've heard from some of

438
00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:15,800
Speaker 1: my sources is that Heather has taken some of her

439
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:24,120
Speaker 1: mom's money to pay off prison guards for relaxed rules. Okay,

440
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 1: you know, it reminds me if you're on Vandersliet Wendy

441
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:32,280
Speaker 1: Patrick who somehow has drugs and booze and got someone

442
00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:37,400
Speaker 1: pregnant behind bars after he murdered Natalie Holloway and Stephanie

443
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:44,080
Speaker 1: Tasciana Flores in Lima. Yeah, she's having a party. Yeah.

444
00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:46,200
Speaker 1: You know, sometimes when we hear that somebody's in prison,

445
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:50,160
Speaker 1: the mental imagery that comes to mind is very far

446
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:52,680
Speaker 1: from reality, and that appears to be the case here.

447
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:55,400
Speaker 1: I have to tell you, Nancy, more and more frequently

448
00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:59,040
Speaker 1: we are getting this glimpse, unfortunately in a sense, into

449
00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:01,360
Speaker 1: what goes on behind bars because of the amount of

450
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:04,720
Speaker 1: contraband phones that are behind bars. So every time I

451
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:09,360
Speaker 1: see footage somehow captured in a high security facility of

452
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:12,200
Speaker 1: wherever it is in the world, that also tells me

453
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:14,880
Speaker 1: the contraband issue that goes on, where all of these

454
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:18,600
Speaker 1: phones and ways to capture footage like this. If that's

455
00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:21,760
Speaker 1: the way it was done, I don't know is even possible,

456
00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:24,640
Speaker 1: but I suppose on the bright side, it gives us

457
00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:27,440
Speaker 1: somewhat of an idea as to what prison life is

458
00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:29,680
Speaker 1: like in order for us to make the corrections that

459
00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:33,160
Speaker 1: we need to. Well, all I know is she is

460
00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:39,040
Speaker 1: not roughing it behind bars at all. She's got makeup music,

461
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:43,760
Speaker 1: she's dancing, she's got contraband, she's got her daughter, and

462
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:47,120
Speaker 1: now she's worried about coming home to the US because

463
00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:50,040
Speaker 1: her daughter might find out she's a murderer. First of all,

464
00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:54,280
Speaker 1: why should she have the baby? How would you grow

465
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:58,040
Speaker 1: and flourish with Heather mac as your mother? Well, that's

466
00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:02,440
Speaker 1: not all. Take a listen to Less Trent from inside edition.

467
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:06,000
Speaker 1: Don't regret killing my mother, And as evil as that

468
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:09,800
Speaker 1: may sound, that's my reality. A chilling confession from behind

469
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:13,520
Speaker 1: bars by the American heiress who murdered her wealthy mother

470
00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:17,480
Speaker 1: on vacation in Bali. I made it up in my heart,

471
00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:25,800
Speaker 1: my mind, my soul, my blood, oxygen running through my body.

472
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:30,520
Speaker 1: But I wanted to kill my mother. Now listen to why.

473
00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:33,480
Speaker 1: Twenty one year old Heather Mack says she beat her

474
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:36,440
Speaker 1: mom to death and stopped her body in a suitcase.

475
00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:40,480
Speaker 1: When I was ten, my mother killed my father in

476
00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:43,920
Speaker 1: a hotel in Athens, Greece. Could Heather be making up

477
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:47,120
Speaker 1: the story? We spoke to family friend Elliott Jacobson, who

478
00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:51,040
Speaker 1: says Heather's claims are nonsense. It's a kind of statement

479
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:55,040
Speaker 1: that doesn't even warrant a response. It's such an absurdity.

480
00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:58,959
Speaker 1: He showed me this death certificate for Heather's father, Jane's

481
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:03,040
Speaker 1: Mack is the cause of death as pulmonary embolism, a

482
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:06,680
Speaker 1: blood clot in the lungs. You were hearing not only

483
00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 1: are a friend less trend and insight edition, but you're

484
00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:13,040
Speaker 1: hearing Heather Max saying she does not regret murdering her mother.

485
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:18,400
Speaker 1: She gives justification that her mother murdered her father when

486
00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:21,240
Speaker 1: she was ten in Athens, Greece. That could not be

487
00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:24,800
Speaker 1: further from the truth. You hear the family friend, Elliott

488
00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:28,400
Speaker 1: Jacobson saying that that was not his cause of death.

489
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:31,840
Speaker 1: The father's cause of death was a pulmonary embolism, a

490
00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:35,920
Speaker 1: blood clot in the lungs brought about through a battle

491
00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:42,240
Speaker 1: with cancer. So even now she's fabricating stories to justify

492
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:48,880
Speaker 1: murdering her mother, shows me that there is no remorse,

493
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:53,200
Speaker 1: no acceptance of her crime. Okay, let's take a listen

494
00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:55,080
Speaker 1: to more of what we've learned. Here's Matt Duran and

495
00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:58,720
Speaker 1: Chris Hansen at Crime Watch Daily. Does the evidence support

496
00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:02,120
Speaker 1: Heather is a version of av It's one thing, in

497
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:06,400
Speaker 1: the heat of the moment, in a violent exchange, to

498
00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:09,960
Speaker 1: kill your own mother, but it's another thing entirely to

499
00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:13,160
Speaker 1: map it out and for this to have been premeditated.

500
00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:22,640
Speaker 1: So which was it in my head? At the police say,

501
00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:25,600
Speaker 1: there's a series of text messages, Heather which show that

502
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:38,879
Speaker 1: which go to that very motive premeditation. I'm sure, yes,

503
00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:41,879
Speaker 1: of course you want to call me back. That call

504
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:45,080
Speaker 1: never came. We would lose contact with Heather after those

505
00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:51,240
Speaker 1: final words. It shows premeditation Cheryl McCollum. The text messages

506
00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:55,120
Speaker 1: between her and her boyfriend. It's just like doctor Jory said,

507
00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:58,799
Speaker 1: he came there as an assassin and now she's going

508
00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:01,399
Speaker 1: to walk free, only worry about what's going to happen

509
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:03,600
Speaker 1: to the baby. Well, let's talk about that, Nancy, because

510
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:06,120
Speaker 1: I think that's a lot of her motivation. So she

511
00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:08,880
Speaker 1: originally tried to ask her boyfriend, Hey, do you know

512
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:11,560
Speaker 1: somebody that can kill my mother for fifty thousand dollars.

513
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:13,759
Speaker 1: Then I think the two of them decided, hey, we

514
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:17,160
Speaker 1: can say fifty grain and do it ourselves and collect everything,

515
00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:22,000
Speaker 1: all the inheritance. She right now she wants that baby

516
00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:25,880
Speaker 1: back with her. She's lying when she says she's worried

517
00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:28,080
Speaker 1: that the baby's going to find out why she's in prison.

518
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:32,160
Speaker 1: The baby visits both of her parents in separate prisons

519
00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:34,759
Speaker 1: for murder. The baby's gonna know why they were there.

520
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:38,319
Speaker 1: That's a given. And this is what I think. She

521
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:42,239
Speaker 1: wants that baby back at Chicago with her because her

522
00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:48,360
Speaker 1: daughter inherited her mother's estate. Guys take a listen to

523
00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:52,680
Speaker 1: our friends at NBC five Chicago, Saint Charles Beast attorney

524
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:56,560
Speaker 1: Vanessa Fabia has represented Mac and Stella. She's definitely more

525
00:35:56,640 --> 00:36:00,920
Speaker 1: mature now and being a mother has changed her drastically,

526
00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:03,520
Speaker 1: So I think she's going to come back with a

527
00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:07,040
Speaker 1: new lease on life and definitely a better person all around.

528
00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:10,360
Speaker 1: Max's uncle Bill Weees tells NBC five he has not

529
00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:13,400
Speaker 1: had contact with heatherin does not want to, and he

530
00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:16,160
Speaker 1: says he believes Heather's original ten year sentence was a

531
00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:19,960
Speaker 1: travesty of justice. Still, he says the family's hearts continue

532
00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:22,160
Speaker 1: to go out to Stella and they hope she can

533
00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:25,239
Speaker 1: be raised in a safe and loving environment. Everyone she

534
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:27,800
Speaker 1: would know in America now was friends with her mother

535
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:33,440
Speaker 1: that she murdered. As far to you, Jessica Morgan, I

536
00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:36,319
Speaker 1: don't know how she sleeps at night thinking back on

537
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:39,480
Speaker 1: the way she murdered her mother, duct taped her body

538
00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:42,279
Speaker 1: into a ball to stick her into a suitcase. I

539
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:45,000
Speaker 1: have no idea, because you know what, I'd see her

540
00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:48,160
Speaker 1: cycling back into violence. This is not like something that

541
00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:52,480
Speaker 1: just fell from lightning, like lightning from heaven. This is

542
00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:57,279
Speaker 1: a premeditated event. This woman is evil nance Well, there

543
00:36:57,280 --> 00:37:00,400
Speaker 1: were the eighty six phone calls to police were just

544
00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:02,560
Speaker 1: the post to believes. How many other times did she

545
00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:06,160
Speaker 1: batter her mother? And as far as maturing behind bars,

546
00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:09,760
Speaker 1: doctor Jerry Cross said, she says, I don't regret murdering

547
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:12,560
Speaker 1: my mother, then makes up a story that her mom

548
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:15,239
Speaker 1: is a killer, that it's her mother's fault. She's dead

549
00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:19,919
Speaker 1: in a suitcase. That's all justification for her. That's that's

550
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:22,879
Speaker 1: all that is. Thank you for joining us on our

551
00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:29,720
Speaker 1: special weekend Crime Stories update. We wait as justice unfolds,

552
00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:35,040
Speaker 1: and our prayers for this little girl, Stella to grow

553
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:40,920
Speaker 1: up happy and healthy and above all safe from her

554
00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:47,000
Speaker 1: own mother. Nancy Gray's Crime Story signing off, Goodbye friend