WEBVTT - The API Was Pushing Climate Denial Way Earlier Than Anyone Thought

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<v Speaker 1>Hadrid listeners were back. They took a long break there

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<v Speaker 1>to work on reporting the next season, and because pandemic

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<v Speaker 1>parenting makes work hard, this month we'll be releasing a

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<v Speaker 1>few bonus episodes and next month we'll get into our

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<v Speaker 1>next narrative season. And it's a long history of the

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<v Speaker 1>gas industry, including the fracking boom, how that fed into

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<v Speaker 1>a plastics boom, and the many crazy tactics the industry

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<v Speaker 1>has used and continues to use to pain itself as

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<v Speaker 1>a clean energy solution. Make sure you're subscribed so you

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<v Speaker 1>don't miss that. Also, a quick update on last season.

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<v Speaker 1>In the Second Circuit Court of Appeals in New York

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<v Speaker 1>just ruled in Stephen Donziger's favor on at least some

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<v Speaker 1>of the civil contempt charges he was facing. If you

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<v Speaker 1>don't have any idea what I'm talking about, go back

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<v Speaker 1>and listen to season five, all about the long Chevron

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<v Speaker 1>Ecuador case. It's been going on for more than thirty years.

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<v Speaker 1>Donziger is still going to trial on criminal contempt charges,

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<v Speaker 1>and we'll have a longer update on all of that

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<v Speaker 1>for you soon, but this is a small win for him.

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<v Speaker 1>Today we're talking to Stanford researcher Ben Fronta, you might

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<v Speaker 1>remember from season one. Fronta studies the history of science,

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<v Speaker 1>and we spoke with him last time about how much

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<v Speaker 1>oil money is funding climate research centers at university campuses

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<v Speaker 1>all over the country. Today, I invited him on to

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<v Speaker 1>share a really big recent discovery that I don't think

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<v Speaker 1>has gotten nearly enough attention about how early the American

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<v Speaker 1>Petroleum Institute knew about climate change and importantly started messaging

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<v Speaker 1>against climate action that started happening in nineteen eighty. According

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<v Speaker 1>to some new stuff that Fronta has dug up, that's

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<v Speaker 1>way earlier than people previously thought. The American Petroleum Institute is,

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<v Speaker 1>of course, the trade group for the oil and gas industry.

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<v Speaker 1>It's been around for more than one hundred years and

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<v Speaker 1>was the brainchild of one of our mad men from

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<v Speaker 1>season three, Ivy Ledbetter Lee, the longtime publicist for the

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<v Speaker 1>Rockefellers and Standard Oil. So you know, no big surprise

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<v Speaker 1>that they were in on climate denial early. That conversation

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<v Speaker 1>coming up right after this quick break.

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<v Speaker 2>So my name is Ben Fronta, and I'm a jdphd

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<v Speaker 2>student at Stanford University. The PhD part of my life

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<v Speaker 2>is about the history of climate science. So I do

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<v Speaker 2>research on the history of climate science in general and

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<v Speaker 2>what fossil fuel companies knew about climate change.

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<v Speaker 1>Awesome, And you recently published something about a policy booklet

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<v Speaker 1>you found published by the American Petroleum Institute in nineteen

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<v Speaker 1>eighty Can you explain a little bit about what that

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<v Speaker 1>is how you found it?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, absolutely, So I found this while doing archival research

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<v Speaker 2>at the University of Wyoming that's in Laramie, and it's

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<v Speaker 2>a policy book published by the American Petroleum Institute, and

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<v Speaker 2>I believe it is the earliest known climate disinformation from

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<v Speaker 2>the API. And of course, you know, the API is

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<v Speaker 2>really the nerve center of the US oil and gas industry,

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<v Speaker 2>so all the major players of the industry were members

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<v Speaker 2>of it, including Exxon and Chevron, as well as the

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<v Speaker 2>European companies like UPNHL.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, this was super interesting to me when I was

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<v Speaker 1>reading it because one of the Exon guys that I interviewed,

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<v Speaker 1>this guy, Richard Werthemer, said that he, you know, he

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<v Speaker 1>was at Exon during this time period, I think from

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<v Speaker 1>like seventy nine to eighty two or eighty three, and

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<v Speaker 1>he said that that he had suspected that like the

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<v Speaker 1>big shift in the industry was kind of orchestrated through

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<v Speaker 1>the API, and that you know, Exon had a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of power there, but also the API had a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of power throughout the industry. So anyway, I don't know,

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<v Speaker 1>it's just it's interesting to see how they were starting

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<v Speaker 1>to talk about the issue in nineteen eighty So what

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<v Speaker 1>was like kind of the big the big finding for

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<v Speaker 1>you in this what was was there anything surprising?

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<v Speaker 2>Well? I was surprised because previously, the conventional wisdom about

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<v Speaker 2>climate disinformation was that it arose around nineteen eighty nine,

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<v Speaker 2>and that's when the fossil fuel industry created the Global

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<v Speaker 2>Climate Coalition and groups like the Martial Institute began pushing

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<v Speaker 2>out climate disinformation into the public sphere, you know, And

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<v Speaker 2>this conventional wisdom led to a sort of question in

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<v Speaker 2>historical circles because you know, as you've talked about on

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<v Speaker 2>your podcast, companies like Exxon and the API were doing

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<v Speaker 2>in house research and monitoring of climate science since at

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<v Speaker 2>least the late nineteen seventies. So there was this question

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<v Speaker 2>of were these companies initially supportive of climate science and

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<v Speaker 2>then did they move to denial only later? And that

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<v Speaker 2>question in that narrative, for example, was an important part

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<v Speaker 2>of the New York Times magazine article Losing Earth, which

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<v Speaker 2>was very popular, and it largely absolved the fossil fuel

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<v Speaker 2>industry of climate and action throughout the nineteen eighties.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it kind of made it all about human nature, right,

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<v Speaker 1>that's right, I know.

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<v Speaker 2>And so this, this discovery shows that that narrative was mistaken. Now,

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<v Speaker 2>of course, you know that narrative fit the information that

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<v Speaker 2>was available at the time, or at least a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of it. But now we know more, and it turns

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<v Speaker 2>out that even as the industry was doing climate research internally,

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<v Speaker 2>it was also promoting this false and misleading information about

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<v Speaker 2>global warming to the public.

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<v Speaker 1>That's super interesting. Maybe I'll have you read a couple

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<v Speaker 1>of the more I don't know, like some of the

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<v Speaker 1>lines that really try to convey doubt about the about

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<v Speaker 1>the science of global warming.

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<v Speaker 2>Sure, so the America Petroleum Institute, and I think this

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<v Speaker 2>is also significant. It acknowledged in this document that CO

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<v Speaker 2>two was a pollutant. It says when coal or any

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<v Speaker 2>other fossil fuel is burned, carbon dioxide emissions occur. In itself,

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<v Speaker 2>carbon dioxide is harmless. Nature itself is a major source. However,

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<v Speaker 2>some scientists believe that large concentrations of carbon dioxide in

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<v Speaker 2>the atmosphere can in time cause climatic changes, specifically higher

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<v Speaker 2>temperatures worldwide, the quote unquote greenhouse effect. You know, even there, you.

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<v Speaker 1>See some of these scientists believe, believe good one, good one, api.

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<v Speaker 2>Exactly, but it goes on and it says other scientists

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<v Speaker 2>are more sanguine or optimistic about the presence of carbon

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<v Speaker 2>dioxide in the atmosphere. Some scientists, including doctor Carl Sagan

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<v Speaker 2>Cornell University astronomer, see a cooling phenomenon as counteracting the

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<v Speaker 2>greenhouse effect. So when I saw that, I was very interested, because,

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<v Speaker 2>of course Carl Stagen is very famous astronomer and a

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<v Speaker 2>public communicator about science, and he actually wrote about his

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<v Speaker 2>worry comes deep concern about global warming in books like Cosmos,

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<v Speaker 2>which I think was also from around nineteen eighty, and

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<v Speaker 2>in that book he wrote, the service environment of Venus

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<v Speaker 2>is a warning something disastrous can happen to a planet

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<v Speaker 2>rather like our own. The carbon dioxide content of the

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<v Speaker 2>Earth's atmosphere is increasing dramatically, and the possibility of a

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<v Speaker 2>runaway greenhouse effect suggests that we have to be careful.

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<v Speaker 2>Even a one or two degree rise in the global

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<v Speaker 2>temperature can have catastrophic consequences.

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<v Speaker 1>Wow. So that is the same exact year, nineteen eighty

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<v Speaker 1>and it is not at all how the API is

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<v Speaker 1>presenting it. Still not at all. Wow.

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<v Speaker 2>So you know, that's one example of the of the

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<v Speaker 2>misleading presentation about climate science that was given by the

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<v Speaker 2>API to the public. And that's sort of a that's

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<v Speaker 2>a classic technique portraying the scientific community as being more split,

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<v Speaker 2>more divided on the issue than it actually is, and

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<v Speaker 2>that of course became a staple of climate denial and

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<v Speaker 2>deflecting attention away from fossil fuels for decades to come.

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<v Speaker 1>That's super super interesting. What is this World Coal Study

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<v Speaker 1>that you mentioned in this in this article.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so this is another another technique of climate it denial,

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<v Speaker 2>and really something that the fossil fuel industry does fairly

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<v Speaker 2>regularly is to point to studies that look like they're

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<v Speaker 2>done independently by by scientists, by third parties, that apparently

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<v Speaker 2>support the position of the industry. And in this booklet

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<v Speaker 2>we have the exact same phenomenon. So the API pointed

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<v Speaker 2>to something here called the World Coal Study, which was

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<v Speaker 2>actually largely funded and even carried out by representatives of

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<v Speaker 2>fossil fuel groups, but it was organized by a professor

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<v Speaker 2>at MIT, so it looked credible from the outside.

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<v Speaker 1>And MIT always taken that sweet spot money.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, and that study which that study came out in

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<v Speaker 2>nineteen eighty two or nineteen eighty as well. So that

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<v Speaker 2>study also came out in nineteen eighty and it called

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<v Speaker 2>for a tripling of worldwide coal production by the year

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<v Speaker 2>two thousand, and it simply asserted that this would have

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<v Speaker 2>no serious consequences for human health or for the environment. Wow,

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<v Speaker 2>which is a rather laughable conclusion.

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<v Speaker 1>This was like around the same time that people were

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<v Speaker 1>trying to make the argument that CO two emissions would

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<v Speaker 1>grow more plants on the planet too.

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<v Speaker 2>That's right, This is about when that argument arose. And

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<v Speaker 2>I want to just note that this World Coal study,

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<v Speaker 2>even though we might think that its conclusions really make

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<v Speaker 2>no sense, it was actually quite influential. So the director

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<v Speaker 2>of that study, that was MIT business professor Carol Wilson.

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<v Speaker 2>He lobbied the Carter administration and with using the study

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<v Speaker 2>WOW to double coal production by nineteen ninety the which

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<v Speaker 2>was actually adopted and it became official G seven policy

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<v Speaker 2>that the G seven countries are the United States, the UK, France, Germany, Italy, Japan,

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<v Speaker 2>and Canada. That became official G seven policy in nineteen

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<v Speaker 2>eighty one.

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<v Speaker 1>Wow. Wow, I love this quote from him that you

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<v Speaker 1>have too, where he's describing his year as having spent

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<v Speaker 1>the last year peddling coal all over the.

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<v Speaker 2>What a glorious year that was.

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<v Speaker 1>Wow. That's yeah, that's really that's really interesting. Can you

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<v Speaker 1>talk a little bit about this industry wide task force

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<v Speaker 1>that API had created sort of the year before as well.

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<v Speaker 1>I know that Nila Banerji wrote about that a few

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<v Speaker 1>years back, but just to kind of orient people in

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<v Speaker 1>this time period again.

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<v Speaker 2>That's right. So you know, this nineteen eighty document shows

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<v Speaker 2>what the API was telling the public about climate change,

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<v Speaker 2>and we can compare that to the internal memos that

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<v Speaker 2>the API had at the time. And one of the

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<v Speaker 2>most important groups in the API related to climate change

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<v Speaker 2>was this task Force on CO two and Climate And

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<v Speaker 2>really what this was was a group to monitor climate

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<v Speaker 2>science and developments, and it had representatives on it from

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<v Speaker 2>the major oil companies who were members of the API,

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<v Speaker 2>from BP, from Exxon and so on. And one of

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<v Speaker 2>the bombshell documents that we have so far is the

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<v Speaker 2>meeting minutes of a presentation given to that task force

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<v Speaker 2>by a researcher from Stanford University about climate change. And

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<v Speaker 2>this was from around the same time, so this presentation

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<v Speaker 2>was from nineteen eighty and during this presentation the person

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<v Speaker 2>presenting his name was John Lawerman. He was an engineer

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<v Speaker 2>from Stanford University. He talked about the likely impacts of

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<v Speaker 2>fossil fuels if they continued to be developed as they were,

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<v Speaker 2>and one of the slides says one of the slides says,

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<v Speaker 2>a one degree rise would happen by two thousand and five,

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<v Speaker 2>but it would be barely noticeable. A two and a

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<v Speaker 2>half degree rise would happen by twenty thirty eight, and

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<v Speaker 2>that would have major economic consequences and would be strongly

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<v Speaker 2>regionally dependent on where you were in the world. And

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<v Speaker 2>then a five degree rise would happen by twenty sixty seven,

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<v Speaker 2>and that would have globally catastrophic effects. And you know,

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<v Speaker 2>of course we have already seen about a one degree rise,

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<v Speaker 2>so this is fairly on track. But this shows that

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<v Speaker 2>by nineteen eighty the API had actually been directly warned

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<v Speaker 2>that business as usual would would create these globally catastrophic

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<v Speaker 2>effects within the twenty first century. And yet in this

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<v Speaker 2>policy book, the API is telling the public we need

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<v Speaker 2>to expand fossil fuel production of all kinds oil, gas,

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<v Speaker 2>and coal, because at that time, the oil industry wanted

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of coal production and order to produce synthetic fuels,

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<v Speaker 2>which is liquid fuel made out of coal, and it

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<v Speaker 2>knew that this would lead to a huge amount of

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<v Speaker 2>CO two being put into the atmosphere, and yet it

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<v Speaker 2>told the public that this would be safe, and this

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<v Speaker 2>is essentially the opposite of what the group had just

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<v Speaker 2>been warned about that very year.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's interesting, especially interesting given that, you know, the

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<v Speaker 1>API has been named in Minnesota's climate fraud lawsuit. So

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<v Speaker 1>it'll be interesting to see how some of this stuff,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, plays into that and also what else they

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<v Speaker 1>might find when I guess it's if, but when they

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<v Speaker 1>get to discovery in that case, Yeah, that.

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<v Speaker 2>Will be very interesting. Yeah. When I see this, this false,

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<v Speaker 2>misleading information coming from the API nineteen eighty, it tells

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<v Speaker 2>me that at that time the industry wasn't just paying

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<v Speaker 2>close attention to climate science through its internal task force,

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<v Speaker 2>but it was also actively intervening to prevent climate from

0:17:16.920 --> 0:17:20.919
<v Speaker 2>being fully considered in public policy, even at that time,

0:17:21.000 --> 0:17:25.880
<v Speaker 2>and that suggests that this sort of approach of denial

0:17:25.960 --> 0:17:29.600
<v Speaker 2>and deception was the first instinct, if you want to

0:17:29.600 --> 0:17:33.120
<v Speaker 2>think about it that way, of the petroleum industry as

0:17:33.760 --> 0:17:39.359
<v Speaker 2>the climate policy grew in the public eye. So you know,

0:17:39.440 --> 0:17:42.679
<v Speaker 2>even in the early eighties, from the very earliest days

0:17:42.720 --> 0:17:47.480
<v Speaker 2>of climate as a policy matter, the industry was already

0:17:47.800 --> 0:17:51.680
<v Speaker 2>poisoning the well, if you want to use that phrase.

0:17:52.520 --> 0:17:55.800
<v Speaker 2>And this means there may not have been a time

0:17:56.760 --> 0:18:01.840
<v Speaker 2>when climate policy discussion were free from the influence of

0:18:01.880 --> 0:18:05.679
<v Speaker 2>disinformation from the industry. It might have always been corrupted

0:18:07.040 --> 0:18:09.919
<v Speaker 2>if disinformation was being put out there this early.

0:18:10.640 --> 0:18:14.400
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I do feel like it's really important to understand

0:18:15.160 --> 0:18:19.960
<v Speaker 1>sort of how the public's understanding and politicians understanding of

0:18:20.320 --> 0:18:25.200
<v Speaker 1>climate science was shaped in those early years when you know,

0:18:25.600 --> 0:18:28.600
<v Speaker 1>oil companies were doing some research.

0:18:28.800 --> 0:18:31.800
<v Speaker 2>You know, if we think about this, you know, this

0:18:31.840 --> 0:18:33.800
<v Speaker 2>is nineteen eighty and that might seem like a long

0:18:33.840 --> 0:18:37.840
<v Speaker 2>time ago, and in some ways it is a long

0:18:37.880 --> 0:18:43.040
<v Speaker 2>time ago. But because energy infrastructure lasts for so long,

0:18:44.440 --> 0:18:46.760
<v Speaker 2>the things that happened in nineteen eighty still have direct

0:18:46.800 --> 0:18:52.439
<v Speaker 2>impacts today energy decisions, like if you build a refinery

0:18:52.560 --> 0:18:56.680
<v Speaker 2>or a coal plant or pipeline that's going to last

0:18:56.720 --> 0:19:01.080
<v Speaker 2>for sometimes fifty years or more. This sort of disinformation

0:19:01.119 --> 0:19:05.880
<v Speaker 2>from nineteen eighty and of course ever since then, has actual,

0:19:06.800 --> 0:19:11.320
<v Speaker 2>real material effects on how much global warming we experience

0:19:11.600 --> 0:19:15.760
<v Speaker 2>now and in the future, and therefore how much damage occurs.

0:19:16.600 --> 0:19:20.159
<v Speaker 2>So even though this is in the past, decades in

0:19:20.200 --> 0:19:25.320
<v Speaker 2>the past, in a very real sense, it is causing

0:19:25.400 --> 0:19:31.440
<v Speaker 2>us harm today. And you know, that's just that's I think,

0:19:31.680 --> 0:19:33.960
<v Speaker 2>you know, an unfortunate aspect of it. But it's also

0:19:34.040 --> 0:19:37.840
<v Speaker 2>why it's so important that we figure out what happened

0:19:38.040 --> 0:19:39.680
<v Speaker 2>us we can correct it totally.

0:19:39.960 --> 0:19:44.080
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, because well it's so it's frustrating to see the

0:19:44.080 --> 0:19:48.359
<v Speaker 1>same thing get repeated in so many ways now, you know,

0:19:48.520 --> 0:19:51.040
<v Speaker 1>or even I was talking to someone earlier today who

0:19:51.080 --> 0:19:54.240
<v Speaker 1>is like, Wow, all of a sudden, it seems like

0:19:54.280 --> 0:19:56.760
<v Speaker 1>disinformation is such a big thing, And I'm like, it's

0:19:56.800 --> 0:19:59.480
<v Speaker 1>not all of a sudden, though, it's been That's like,

0:19:59.720 --> 0:20:02.919
<v Speaker 1>because because this whole machine has been built for like

0:20:02.960 --> 0:20:08.480
<v Speaker 1>one hundred years, right, that's right, we need to understand that.

0:20:08.520 --> 0:20:12.919
<v Speaker 1>And I my big soapbox recently is that I really

0:20:12.960 --> 0:20:15.320
<v Speaker 1>think the media needs to take a hard look at

0:20:15.359 --> 0:20:18.960
<v Speaker 1>itself and its role in all of this stuff and

0:20:20.400 --> 0:20:25.560
<v Speaker 1>ways that it can inoculate itself and the public against

0:20:25.800 --> 0:20:26.200
<v Speaker 1>more of it.

0:20:26.880 --> 0:20:30.240
<v Speaker 2>That's absolutely right, Yeah, because you know, as you've talked

0:20:30.240 --> 0:20:35.080
<v Speaker 2>about it in your podcast, some of these techniques of

0:20:35.440 --> 0:20:40.320
<v Speaker 2>mass manipulation, you know, are very old and they're commonly

0:20:40.440 --> 0:20:46.600
<v Speaker 2>used between different industries. Techniques like the third party technique

0:20:46.640 --> 0:20:50.760
<v Speaker 2>where you you know, falsely ascribe essentially your own position

0:20:50.880 --> 0:20:54.280
<v Speaker 2>to a group that looks like it's independent from you,

0:20:54.440 --> 0:20:57.400
<v Speaker 2>but it's actually not. You know, that's just one example.

0:20:57.560 --> 0:21:04.360
<v Speaker 2>But but these sort of pr techniques, they're very common,

0:21:04.640 --> 0:21:09.960
<v Speaker 2>and it's amazing how how common they are once you

0:21:10.119 --> 0:21:13.040
<v Speaker 2>learn about them, and you know, you have a whole

0:21:13.080 --> 0:21:16.680
<v Speaker 2>season about that, and it's one of the best resources

0:21:16.240 --> 0:21:20.840
<v Speaker 2>about that topic. But I think it would be you know,

0:21:21.000 --> 0:21:28.960
<v Speaker 2>amazing for for the media to develop a closer familiarity

0:21:28.960 --> 0:21:29.399
<v Speaker 2>with all that.

0:21:44.880 --> 0:21:48.200
<v Speaker 1>That's it for this time. Big thanks to Ben Fronta

0:21:48.400 --> 0:21:51.520
<v Speaker 1>for joining us. I will drop links in the show

0:21:51.560 --> 0:21:57.359
<v Speaker 1>notes to his research on this subject and the documents

0:21:57.400 --> 0:22:00.200
<v Speaker 1>that he was able to find. Come back next next

0:22:00.200 --> 0:22:03.680
<v Speaker 1>week we'll be talking about a new report that had

0:22:03.800 --> 0:22:07.040
<v Speaker 1>the oil and gas guys all up in arms. It

0:22:07.200 --> 0:22:11.360
<v Speaker 1>found that, surprise, all those jobs that the fracking industry

0:22:11.440 --> 0:22:16.119
<v Speaker 1>was supposed to deliver never really materialized. Come back for

0:22:16.200 --> 0:22:28.680
<v Speaker 1>that and we'll see you too. Drilled is an original

0:22:28.760 --> 0:22:32.800
<v Speaker 1>production of Critical Frequency. It's reported and produced by me

0:22:33.119 --> 0:22:38.960
<v Speaker 1>Amy Westervelt. Our music is composed by b Beeman, David Whited,

0:22:39.240 --> 0:22:43.640
<v Speaker 1>and Martin Wissenberg. You can find us online at drillednews

0:22:43.920 --> 0:22:47.639
<v Speaker 1>dot com, where you'll find transcripts and related documents for

0:22:47.880 --> 0:22:52.719
<v Speaker 1>podcast episodes, as well as more climate accountability reporting. You

0:22:52.760 --> 0:22:55.760
<v Speaker 1>can follow us on Twitter at we are Drilled, and

0:22:55.800 --> 0:22:59.479
<v Speaker 1>you can follow me at Amy Westervelt. Big thank you

0:22:59.520 --> 0:23:03.639
<v Speaker 1>to our Patreon subscribers. You are the ones making this

0:23:03.720 --> 0:23:06.920
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0:23:07.320 --> 0:23:11.800
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