Speaker 1: Control has served me quite well in a work capacity
Speaker 1: in some ways, but it's work in progress when it
Speaker 1: comes to relationships and kids. Welcome to the one you
Speaker 1: feed throughout time. Great thinkers have recognized the importance of
Speaker 1: the thoughts we have, quotes like garbage in, garbage out,
Speaker 1: or you are what you think ring true, and yet
Speaker 1: for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us.
Speaker 1: We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We
Speaker 1: see what we don't have instead of what we do.
Speaker 1: We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit.
Speaker 1: But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It
Speaker 1: takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life
Speaker 1: worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep
Speaker 1: themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their
Speaker 1: good wolf. Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this
Speaker 1: episode is Sky Sports presenter Tony Wrighton, who is also
Speaker 1: the author of three books and the creator and host
Speaker 1: of the Zestology podcast. Hi Tony, welcome to the show. Hey,
Speaker 1: how are you doing. Thanks for having me on. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I am really happy to have you on. You are
Speaker 1: the host of a podcast called Zestology, which I'll also
Speaker 1: be appearing on and we'll talk a lot more about
Speaker 1: that here soon. But let's start like we always do,
Speaker 1: with the parable. There is a grandfather who's talking with
Speaker 1: his grandson and he says, in life, there are two
Speaker 1: wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One
Speaker 1: is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and
Speaker 1: bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf,
Speaker 1: which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And
Speaker 1: the grandson stops and he thinks about it for a second,
Speaker 1: and he looks up at his grandfather and he says, well, grandfather,
Speaker 1: which one wins? And the grandfather says, the one you feed.
Speaker 1: So I'd like to start off by asking you what
Speaker 1: that parable means to you in your life and in
Speaker 1: the work that you do. Well. First of all, I
Speaker 1: really like the way that you've kind of based your
Speaker 1: podcast around this. I think it's I always like it
Speaker 1: when a podcast has a title that it doesn't make
Speaker 1: it immediately apparent what the nature of the podcast is
Speaker 1: all about, you know, I thought, oh, is this like
Speaker 1: a charity podcast? Do they feed lots of people in
Speaker 1: third world countries? What's going on here? You know? Is
Speaker 1: it a cooking show. Yeah, exactly. It's it's a nice idea.
Speaker 1: It works really well. And I think in terms of
Speaker 1: the multiple personalities that I've got inside myself, the one
Speaker 1: I feeds very relevant. I'll be looking into this parable
Speaker 1: before coming on your show. And there's lots of different
Speaker 1: interpretations of it, aren't there. And it's appeared in lots
Speaker 1: of films, and it's been told retold in different ways.
Speaker 1: And sometimes it's not not necessarily a good and evil wolf,
Speaker 1: but there's just two wolves. And but but there's the
Speaker 1: parable still applies, you know. I mean, which one you
Speaker 1: feed kind of grows inside you. And I think one
Speaker 1: of the things that I've been very interested and very
Speaker 1: much looking forward to talking to you about is in
Speaker 1: terms of habit, habit forming and habit building and building
Speaker 1: good habits and staying on the straight and narrow. It's
Speaker 1: very hard sometimes to remind yourself, you know. Just before
Speaker 1: we started recording I I was telling you that I'm
Speaker 1: a new dad and I've got a four month old
Speaker 1: and one of the things that I know works really
Speaker 1: well for me is meditation. I know, I've got quite
Speaker 1: a distractive mind. I'm easily distracted and just ten minutes
Speaker 1: of kind of calm every morning does work really well.
Speaker 1: But when you've got a four month old, you can't
Speaker 1: control anything, and if they're up at five o'clock in
Speaker 1: the morning, you're looking after them and there's no time
Speaker 1: for meditation. So I've desperately been trying to feed the
Speaker 1: meditation wolf inside me. But but to me, there isn't
Speaker 1: necessarily a good and evil wolf, but there's there's lots
Speaker 1: of different wolves inside me, all kind of pursuing slightly
Speaker 1: different agendas, and I have to work hard to be
Speaker 1: disciplined to kind of follow the path that I know
Speaker 1: makes me feel a little bit more calm and balanced.
Speaker 1: It's definitely true that there's two wolves inside of us
Speaker 1: is a definite oversimplification, but I get your point around
Speaker 1: the parable for me just is basically about choice, right,
Speaker 1: It's just about what choices are we making. And so
Speaker 1: we were just talking a minute ago about how having
Speaker 1: a newborn suddenly makes you have a lot less control,
Speaker 1: and so you know, that is one of the sort
Speaker 1: of challenges in life, or one of the things that
Speaker 1: I always think is at the center of my questions
Speaker 1: in life, which is about accepting things the way they
Speaker 1: are and trying to make things better. And I think that,
Speaker 1: you know, life is a skillful dance between those two poles,
Speaker 1: so to speak. Absolutely, yeah, yeah, I mean I would
Speaker 1: certainly veer towards the control side. I think something I've
Speaker 1: I've worked on, you know. I mean my day job
Speaker 1: is I'm a TV presenter here in the UK, and
Speaker 1: I worked really hard for that job, and I trained
Speaker 1: in NLP for I started training that about fifteen years ago.
Speaker 1: And a lot of neuro linguistic programming skills are based
Speaker 1: around goal setting or outcome setting as you might say.
Speaker 1: And you know, with the with the job at Sky Sports,
Speaker 1: I really wanted it, and I wrote it down and
Speaker 1: I did self hypnosis around it, and I settle these
Speaker 1: anchors and goals and outcomes and I did everything I could.
Speaker 1: I modeled the presenters that were already on there, and
Speaker 1: in the end I got the job. But then when
Speaker 1: it comes to many things in life like relationships and children, um,
Speaker 1: I wasn't so good at that part of it because
Speaker 1: I couldn't control it, and therefore and therefore I wasn't
Speaker 1: very successful in that area. So yeah, controllers served me
Speaker 1: quite well in a work capacity in some ways, but
Speaker 1: it's work in progress. When it comes to relationships and kids,
Speaker 1: hopefully I've got a bit better anyway, I hope my
Speaker 1: girlfriend would tell you that. Anyway. Yeah, well, no relationships
Speaker 1: and uh childer and all that stuff. You're right as
Speaker 1: an area that control doesn't really work. And and I
Speaker 1: think as I've gotten older, you know, I was sharing
Speaker 1: with you my son is in college, so i'm you know,
Speaker 1: I'm obviously a little bit older than you are. And
Speaker 1: and I think for me it's really been in the
Speaker 1: in the later years for me that I think I've
Speaker 1: gotten a deeper sense of the value of letting go
Speaker 1: of control. Um. I think that I have a tendency
Speaker 1: to to very much be about control, right and and
Speaker 1: very much be about well, if you just do this,
Speaker 1: and you do this, and you do this and you
Speaker 1: do that, then you'll be happy, Then you'll be mentally healthy,
Speaker 1: then you'll be this, then you'll be that. And there
Speaker 1: is no doubt that there are lots and lots of
Speaker 1: things that we can and probably should do in life
Speaker 1: to give us the greatest chance of happiness and fulfillment
Speaker 1: and meaning in all that. And life just does its
Speaker 1: own things sometimes no matter how hard we try, it
Speaker 1: just throws stuff at that a lot of times is
Speaker 1: just beyond what we can control. Yeah, the apple of
Speaker 1: your eye, your child is college age. You really have
Speaker 1: to let go because they're going to go and do
Speaker 1: their own thing anyway, right. I think that's stuff. I
Speaker 1: was talking with a coaching client earlier today and one
Speaker 1: of his sons, I think is like ten now, and
Speaker 1: I was talking about how, you know, I feel like
Speaker 1: when my son turned about twelve or thirteen, I started
Speaker 1: really asking myself like how much control do I have?
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously can be like come home at this time,
Speaker 1: do that, but it seemed like more and more at
Speaker 1: that age, it was like what as peers were saying
Speaker 1: to him was so much more important than what I
Speaker 1: was saying. And you know, as he as he got
Speaker 1: older through his teenage years, I think I made a
Speaker 1: very conscious effort to try and sort of let the
Speaker 1: leash out a little bit more and more and more,
Speaker 1: knowing that, like you said, once he turns eighteen, the
Speaker 1: leash is kind of gone. I know you've had gabble
Speaker 1: Matte on your podcast, haven't you, and we have? Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: and um, I wonder if he spoke with all about
Speaker 1: parenting because he's got some fastening. He's actually written a
Speaker 1: book called I Think It's Time to Parent or something
Speaker 1: all that. Anyway, he has some really fascinating thoughts about parents.
Speaker 1: And I read his book whilst my partner, Faith was pregnant,
Speaker 1: and I find it quite daunting actually, because because there's
Speaker 1: so much to learn. But again, you know, I mean, okay,
Speaker 1: you learned so much and then try not to control
Speaker 1: it and provide a loving home and then send them
Speaker 1: off into the world and hope for the best. I
Speaker 1: suppose that's right. Yeah, No, it's not something Gabborer and
Speaker 1: I talked about, or Dr Marte or however we should
Speaker 1: refer to him. You know, we mostly focused on addiction.
Speaker 1: But funny enough, and and that's earlier conversation with one
Speaker 1: of my coaching clients. We were talking about that very idea,
Speaker 1: and I was saying that, you know, to me, parenting
Speaker 1: is one of those things that you just never quite
Speaker 1: feel like you do good enough, Like it doesn't matter
Speaker 1: what you try, you can only do so much right.
Speaker 1: We just inevitably come across our own limitations. Um, at
Speaker 1: least I did kind of over and over and over again.
Speaker 1: And yet and you know, thankfully knock on wood. In
Speaker 1: my son's case, he's you know, so far, he's doing really,
Speaker 1: really well. And I think you kind of said what
Speaker 1: to me is the most important part, which is sort
Speaker 1: of this idea of providing a loving and supporting environment,
Speaker 1: you know, not a lenient cuddling environment, but definitely a
Speaker 1: loving and supporting environment. Well, Eric, I have to tell
Speaker 1: you right now, I have provided a very loving and
Speaker 1: supportive environment for my four month old son, and in
Speaker 1: a distant corner of the house, he's screaming his head off,
Speaker 1: not wanting to go to bed. So you can only
Speaker 1: do so much. You can only do so much. For
Speaker 1: the good news is I can't I can't really hear him,
Speaker 1: and I hope the little guy gets to sleep here soon. Good,
Speaker 1: thank you. Yeah, he'll be all right. So your podcast
Speaker 1: is called Zestology, and you know, as I understand it,
Speaker 1: it's primarily around energy. But but tell me why you
Speaker 1: named it that and what it means to you. Well,
Speaker 1: I um, as I said, I was a kind of
Speaker 1: TV presenter, and I've been doing that for quite a
Speaker 1: long time, and I've written these books around n LP.
Speaker 1: You know, how people do things well nero linguistic programming UM.
Speaker 1: And then it turned out I wasn't very doing things
Speaker 1: very well, particularly when I got ill. I went to
Speaker 1: the jungle. I went on holiday to the Philippines, and
Speaker 1: we staid in this beardiful place in the middle of nowhere.
Speaker 1: It was a retreat called the Farm, kind of an
Speaker 1: hour or so outside Manila, and we had nothing more
Speaker 1: to worry about than what smoothie we were going to
Speaker 1: have for breakfast, and the kind of squawk of the
Speaker 1: parrots in the trees. And then I got quite ill,
Speaker 1: quite seriously, and I picked up this virus that was
Speaker 1: so rare that the doctors that I saw when I
Speaker 1: got back, they were specialists, and they said, you know,
Speaker 1: we know you've had a virus, but we can't tell
Speaker 1: you what the virus was. We just know that there
Speaker 1: are some viruses that haven't been discovered yet. And I
Speaker 1: end up spending a few months in bed, and I
Speaker 1: wasn't working in TV, and I didn't really ever know
Speaker 1: if i'd get out of bed, And then the kind
Speaker 1: of deepest, darkest recesses of those few months, I thought,
Speaker 1: if I start to get back to full health, it
Speaker 1: would be great to do a podcast on energy, and
Speaker 1: I thought the names astrology then, so that's kind of
Speaker 1: how it was born. I thought, without energy, you can't
Speaker 1: do anything, and when you've got loads of energy, you
Speaker 1: feel you can take on the world. So that was
Speaker 1: the basic premise behind the podcast, and now it's become
Speaker 1: quite a fun adventure. I've traveled around the place. I've
Speaker 1: been to your country loads of times, and been to
Speaker 1: various health conferences and retreats, and thankfully got back to
Speaker 1: full health as well, and tried some fun, unusual, kind
Speaker 1: of wacky experiments but for more energy along the way.
Speaker 1: Some of them work and some of them don't. What
Speaker 1: would you say for you are some of the key
Speaker 1: principles from me? Energy and energy not necessarily like the
Speaker 1: exact thing you do, but like, how do you think
Speaker 1: about or how do you advise people to think about
Speaker 1: if they want to have more energy in life? What's
Speaker 1: what's the process? The first thing to say is that
Speaker 1: all the really fun stuff is what people want to
Speaker 1: talk about. They want to hear about the cryotherapy. Have
Speaker 1: you done cry a therapy? I have? I have. Yeah,
Speaker 1: It's it's good fun, isn't it. Well, it's called that's
Speaker 1: that's that's the answer of a man who didn't love
Speaker 1: his cryotherapy session. I didn't have a strong feeling about
Speaker 1: it one way or the other. I didn't really notice.
Speaker 1: I found it invigorating and refreshing, but I can't really
Speaker 1: say that. Like I left there in like three hours later,
Speaker 1: I was still like, yes, this has changed my life.
Speaker 1: I just didn't have a ton of an impact on
Speaker 1: me that I could tell. I mean, you know, I
Speaker 1: think it's probably like a double espresso or something. It
Speaker 1: gives you a little boost, but it's kind of not
Speaker 1: the end of the world. But I'll tell you what.
Speaker 1: It does make a very good Instagram picture for anyone
Speaker 1: considering doing it, because you kind of pop your head
Speaker 1: out the top of this tank and it freezes your
Speaker 1: body down to minus two something degrees um, so you
Speaker 1: can you can do all the fun stuff. And in fact,
Speaker 1: just before we did this podcast, I took five minutes
Speaker 1: or so to meditate in front of an infrared light device,
Speaker 1: which is really lovely. Helps in the morning with kind
Speaker 1: of bright light with energy, and it helps in the
Speaker 1: evening to kind of calm you down a bit um.
Speaker 1: But the truth is that a lot of the things
Speaker 1: that help with energy, the most actually slightly boring, which
Speaker 1: always comes as a massive disappointment when I kind of
Speaker 1: do presentations and talk to people about it. That you know,
Speaker 1: the stuff like meditating, sleep, good food, not know, lower
Speaker 1: carb and higher fat diet just seems to work really well.
Speaker 1: Intermittent fasting is not necessarily the kind of the jazzy
Speaker 1: cryotherapy and the infrared lights or that people do like
Speaker 1: caring about that as well, Right, And those are kind
Speaker 1: of the basic fundamentals, right, that you're describing here is
Speaker 1: basic fundamentals to well being. And I think they help
Speaker 1: with energy, they help with health, they help with mental health.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's the thing I love about the things
Speaker 1: like exercise, meditating, good diet, and good sleep is that
Speaker 1: they're they're positively indicated in so many different areas that
Speaker 1: that I can feel pretty good about doing them because
Speaker 1: I know it's it's helping me in multiple areas of
Speaker 1: my life, and plus the main area that I pay
Speaker 1: attention to us, I just feel better if it. Actually
Speaker 1: when you spoke about control earlier on being someone who
Speaker 1: likes to control things when possible, I started a spreadsheet
Speaker 1: based around my kind of energy levels, and I started
Speaker 1: tracking various areas of my life and what gave me
Speaker 1: energy and what didn't. So I tracked, you know, whether
Speaker 1: I went to the gym or not, whether I meditated,
Speaker 1: whether I would take a magnesium supplement, for example, and
Speaker 1: all sorts of different things, and some quite interesting results
Speaker 1: came up. And I was amazed to find that one thing, um,
Speaker 1: when I didn't do it on a particular day, reduced
Speaker 1: my energy levels by about thirty And I was really
Speaker 1: surprised by this, you know, because I tracked all sorts
Speaker 1: of different stuff. Can you guess what it was when
Speaker 1: I didn't do it on a particular day and my
Speaker 1: energy levels reduced by I'm guessing it's not the obvious one.
Speaker 1: I'm going to choose meditation. It wasn't meditation, although meditation
Speaker 1: does make a massive difference to me. Um, it was
Speaker 1: actually when I didn't schedule any fun in for a
Speaker 1: particular day. You know what. I heard you say that
Speaker 1: on a podcast, which is why I felt like I
Speaker 1: should know the answer and I didn't. That's great, So yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I did hear you say that. I've listened to a
Speaker 1: couple of a couple of your things, and I did
Speaker 1: hear you say that yeah, yeah, and so that's great
Speaker 1: and and so like for you, what are fun things
Speaker 1: that you schedule in and were you able to get
Speaker 1: to a point of like how much fun you had
Speaker 1: to have? And certain types of fun versus others, like
Speaker 1: just watching Netflix count as fun. I suppose watching TV
Speaker 1: is a form of relaxation. I mean, I've got a
Speaker 1: bit of a confession to make now, and you should
Speaker 1: judge me here, um, because I'm judging myself. But we
Speaker 1: at the moment, we have a new baby. This is
Speaker 1: my excuse. I'm very tired when it gets to nine
Speaker 1: o'clock in the evening. And normally me and my partner
Speaker 1: we watched you know, lovely documentaries or maybe a kind
Speaker 1: of a really good, well crafted Netflix series. But recently
Speaker 1: we've been watching a reality TV so called Love Island,
Speaker 1: and I I just shouldn't be watching it. It's dreadful TV.
Speaker 1: It's we always feel slightly soiled at the end of
Speaker 1: watching in an hour of Love Island. Um. But yeah,
Speaker 1: what happened was when I when I organized lots of
Speaker 1: fun activities in my day, I made a note of it.
Speaker 1: And and this is going to sound a bit weird,
Speaker 1: but I basically measured it by giving myself a fun
Speaker 1: score out of ten, and when there was very little
Speaker 1: fun on a particular day, my daily energy levels went
Speaker 1: down so much that I realized that it's important for
Speaker 1: me to organize lots of fun. So today I was
Speaker 1: doing I was doing voiceovers today and I finished work
Speaker 1: at three o'clock and we met up with the family.
Speaker 1: After that, we just went for a three hour walk
Speaker 1: on a pizza. That counts as fun. So I give
Speaker 1: myself a pretty good fund score for today. I think
Speaker 1: that's really interesting and it's an interesting thing to track.
Speaker 1: I have listeners a show I've heard me say, you
Speaker 1: know sometimes over the last you know, a couple of years,
Speaker 1: but really the last year in particular, I was like,
Speaker 1: I have got to find a way to have more fun.
Speaker 1: Like I've got to find a way to do things
Speaker 1: that I just plain enjoy doing that have no purpose,
Speaker 1: and they can't be things that I turn into something
Speaker 1: that has a purpose. Like if I'm not careful, I
Speaker 1: will turn a fun activity into a competitive activity that
Speaker 1: I need to be getting better at or it's not
Speaker 1: you know, back to back to the sort of achieving idea.
Speaker 1: And what I found is boy it's harder for me
Speaker 1: to find fun than I thought it would be. Like
Speaker 1: I I, it's it doesn't come as naturally to me.
Speaker 1: I've taken up um playing ping pong with a friend,
Speaker 1: which is unabashed fun, although it's also very competitive, but
Speaker 1: it is unabashedly fun. Like I look forward to it.
Speaker 1: I enjoy it. I have such a good time when
Speaker 1: I'm doing it, you know, so I'm continuing to look
Speaker 1: for other areas like that in my life. Well, you said,
Speaker 1: I know from following you that you are a type
Speaker 1: paid personality or an entrepreneur. You've got so many things
Speaker 1: going on at once. You've worked very hard to make
Speaker 1: this podcast to success as well. It doesn't surprise me
Speaker 1: that you're a bit of a workaholic. And even when
Speaker 1: you're playing, I bet you enjoy the ping pong more
Speaker 1: when you're warming up and just hitting and when you're
Speaker 1: actually having a game kind of. Although I've really as
Speaker 1: I've gotten older, I've gotten better. Like I used to
Speaker 1: play guitar or no, let me rephrase that, I still
Speaker 1: play guitar. I used to play guitar and be in
Speaker 1: bands and write music. And you know, I had a
Speaker 1: I had a dream when I was young that that's
Speaker 1: what I would do for a career, um, which was
Speaker 1: not really a dream that was ever likely to come
Speaker 1: true because I didn't work on it all that hard
Speaker 1: and um. And so what I found though, layer in
Speaker 1: life was that I would I would turn music into that.
Speaker 1: I'd pick up the guitar and I start playing, and
Speaker 1: I play something that was kind of cool and be like, oh,
Speaker 1: I got to record that. What am I going to
Speaker 1: do with it? Am I going to write a song?
Speaker 1: And I've learned over time now like I just don't
Speaker 1: do that anymore. Like I just pick up the guitar
Speaker 1: and I just enjoy playing it. I enjoy learning something,
Speaker 1: and I've managed to be able to drop that piece
Speaker 1: of it. And and with ping pong, although it is
Speaker 1: very very competitive for me and I do prefer winning,
Speaker 1: I've also been able to my My girlfriend asked me
Speaker 1: this yesterday after I came back from a defeat, and
Speaker 1: she said, well, was it still fun? I said, it
Speaker 1: was still a blast, Like I had a great time.
Speaker 1: But no, I hear you, like that is the thing
Speaker 1: I have to watch out for. Is is that sort
Speaker 1: of stuff? So what are other fun things for you?
Speaker 1: I think when I heard you talking about it, I
Speaker 1: might have heard something about frisbee golf one day. Did
Speaker 1: I make that up? Well, when you heard me talking
Speaker 1: about it, I might have been talking about There's an
Speaker 1: author called Charlie Hone and he wrote this brilliant book
Speaker 1: called Play It Away, Um. And Charlie Hone was I
Speaker 1: think Originally he was an assistant to Tim Ferris and
Speaker 1: quite high achieving his own writing all through anything else,
Speaker 1: and then he went through complete burnout and he realized
Speaker 1: the only way he could deal with his own life
Speaker 1: was just by having loads of fun each day. And
Speaker 1: the book is all about living stress free and living
Speaker 1: a much calmer, happier existence. And he says when he
Speaker 1: dialed down his ambition, he had a much happier life,
Speaker 1: and his big thing was frisbee. So it might have
Speaker 1: been that, But I really liked that book, um, Play
Speaker 1: It Away by by Charlie Hone. And in terms of
Speaker 1: my idea of fun, well, you Americans, you know, I
Speaker 1: I love American culture, but one of the things that
Speaker 1: really disappoints me is you don't really get the sportive cricket.
Speaker 1: You know, if only you like to cricket a little
Speaker 1: bit more it would be just so much better. It's
Speaker 1: it's funny. I worked for you know, most of my
Speaker 1: adult career was in the software development side of the world.
Speaker 1: UM and I had a job for several years at
Speaker 1: a large organization. I was a consultant there, but you know,
Speaker 1: probably of the workforce there were people from India, right,
Speaker 1: So what what started happening was we started organizing charity
Speaker 1: events and so I got to go out and play
Speaker 1: cricket several times with people, and I found it absolutely
Speaker 1: a fun game, totally very interesting. And the part of
Speaker 1: it that still sticks with me to this day was
Speaker 1: all these people I worked with. They were very mild mannered,
Speaker 1: very quiet, very low key, very deferring, but out on
Speaker 1: the cricket court they transformed. I was like, who are
Speaker 1: these guys like? They were so intense, fantastic. I mean,
Speaker 1: if you came over to this country and you called
Speaker 1: the cricket picture cricket court, you'd be you'd be laughed
Speaker 1: out of town. That's what I just called it. The
Speaker 1: cricket the cricket court. Yeah, but it is a great game,
Speaker 1: is what I like about it is, you know, because
Speaker 1: the biggest sport here and the sport that I talked
Speaker 1: about most in my in my job is football, or
Speaker 1: as you'd call it, soccer, and that's that's huge, and
Speaker 1: it is a brilliant sport for its simplicity. But what
Speaker 1: I like about cricket is it's so complicated. I mean,
Speaker 1: even I would struggle to explain all the rules, and
Speaker 1: it is possible that sometimes you can play for five
Speaker 1: days and there will be a draw at the end
Speaker 1: of it, and that's brilliant. I love that. That is
Speaker 1: a very non American way of looking at things, and
Speaker 1: I think it's the reason why, you know, uh, soccer
Speaker 1: hasn't taken off to the same degree here. There's just
Speaker 1: not as much going on. Although for a long time
Speaker 1: baseball was really big here in Baseball is a slower sport,
Speaker 1: but but it's really become NBA, NFL, you know, these
Speaker 1: really fast, high scoring sports. I've been to a few
Speaker 1: baseball games and I love it for the same reason.
Speaker 1: I suppose what I like about it is, you know,
Speaker 1: we've been talking about fun and relaxation, and I like
Speaker 1: the aimlessness of cricket and baseball as well. You know,
Speaker 1: the thought that you've got nothing better to do to
Speaker 1: sit at a game and just relax and enjoying. Sometimes
Speaker 1: there's a lot going on, and sometimes there isn't that
Speaker 1: flow of a kind of slow paced sport. I think
Speaker 1: it's harder for us to get into than ever, really,
Speaker 1: because we've got so many distractions. And maybe that is
Speaker 1: why sports like baseball and cricket are becoming a bit
Speaker 1: less popular sadly. Yeah, yep, So what other things do
Speaker 1: you do for fun in your own life? Let's let's
Speaker 1: throw out a couple other ideas for listeners, and then
Speaker 1: we'll move on to another topic. I mean, look, I'm
Speaker 1: an absolute book nerd, and one of the questions I
Speaker 1: always ask everybody at the end of my podcast, and
Speaker 1: I'll be asking you when you come on my podcast
Speaker 1: very shortly, is what is one book that you would recommend?
Speaker 1: And that's a really kind of popular part of the
Speaker 1: podcast because I think everybody likes reading, but we don't
Speaker 1: make enough time to do it, don't we. And then
Speaker 1: the other thing is, I mean, your listeners are going
Speaker 1: to think I'm so square because not only on my
Speaker 1: into cricket, I'm also into chess. I really like chess,
Speaker 1: and I've got kind of really quite into playing that
Speaker 1: and even play the odd little game of online chess
Speaker 1: because it's just so relaxing, and you know, talk about
Speaker 1: being in the moment. If you're distracted when you're playing chess,
Speaker 1: you're not going to play very well. So so I
Speaker 1: like that as well, and that those would all count
Speaker 1: as the kind of things that Charlie Hone would describe
Speaker 1: as kind of play, and therefore I would describe on
Speaker 1: my spreadsheet as fun. So I'm definitely gonna check out
Speaker 1: that book. So what else was on your spreadsheets? So
Speaker 1: you tracked? You said, whether you went to the gym,
Speaker 1: whether you meditated to certain supplements, how you slept, whether
Speaker 1: you had fun. What else did you track to try
Speaker 1: and understand how different things affected your energy? Well, the
Speaker 1: other big secret was switching off, which is something that
Speaker 1: is not always easy for us to do. But we
Speaker 1: live such connected lives, don't we. And I'm a bit
Speaker 1: obsessed by the fact that when I switched off, I
Speaker 1: always live a kind of happier, slightly freer life. And
Speaker 1: the big secrets appeared to be on my spreadsheets switching off.
Speaker 1: You know, the more I escape technology during the day,
Speaker 1: the more energy I have, which is really weird. But
Speaker 1: when I escaped screens for a big chunk of time,
Speaker 1: and that is for more than about six or eight hours.
Speaker 1: My energy level was about higher. That's a huge increase.
Speaker 1: Now it is getting away from screens. It's not always practical,
Speaker 1: and even that is harder than ever before, because of course,
Speaker 1: when I started tracking this stuff years ago, I didn't
Speaker 1: have sat NAV in my car, but now I do,
Speaker 1: and that's a screen, you know, So it is harder
Speaker 1: to get away from the screens. But if you can
Speaker 1: get away from them from a certain period of time,
Speaker 1: you might find, like me, that your energy levels go
Speaker 1: up a lot. And I think it was for me
Speaker 1: again it was living in the moment and having less distractions.
Speaker 1: So we listed those main things. Are those the main
Speaker 1: ways that you focus on managing your energy is kind
Speaker 1: of tweaking each of those areas of your life. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, in terms of the main things that worked
Speaker 1: for me on the spreadsheet were switching off, focusing on relaxing,
Speaker 1: so kind of on the days that had lived a
Speaker 1: very relaxing day, and maybe that would include meditation. My
Speaker 1: daily energy level was about I think it's about nine
Speaker 1: point nine percent higher. And then exercise really works well.
Speaker 1: I mean, like I mean, just so plain to see.
Speaker 1: Going to the gym raised my average daily energy by
Speaker 1: over five um. One of the things that didn't raise
Speaker 1: my energy levels as much as I thought it might
Speaker 1: do is I like a supplement every once in a while. Eric,
Speaker 1: I've I've tried lots of lots of different supplements. I
Speaker 1: don't know whether you're that into supplements or not. Really
Speaker 1: do you take Do you take many supplements? Um? I
Speaker 1: kind of on and our again. Yeah, yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: mainly vitamins and things. Um, so yes, sometimes I take
Speaker 1: more of them than others. And I the jury is
Speaker 1: completely out in my case as how much do they
Speaker 1: do of anything? I don't know because I don't track
Speaker 1: things in the way that you are. I mean, I
Speaker 1: track things like you know, I track basic activities, but
Speaker 1: I don't track them in correspondence to how I feel.
Speaker 1: In some ways, I think that's a good thing, because
Speaker 1: you know, going back to the parable, it's good for
Speaker 1: me to look after my energy levels. But if I
Speaker 1: start to if I fill out the spreadsheet for like
Speaker 1: an hour in the evening, that's bad because it's just
Speaker 1: taking me away from relaxing. So there's a balance involved.
Speaker 1: Isn't there as far as the right supplements were involved.
Speaker 1: I was quite surprised that the supplement they helped most
Speaker 1: was magnesium. But it only increased my daily energy levels
Speaker 1: by about two so not really as big an increase
Speaker 1: as I had hoped for. Definitely something, but I thought
Speaker 1: at least one of these supplements that I take would
Speaker 1: be a real magic pill effect, you know, much success rate.
Speaker 1: But no, yeah, no, I believe that. I actually do
Speaker 1: believe it's not you know, necessarily like big noticeable changes
Speaker 1: with a lot of that stuff. So let's talk about
Speaker 1: some of your other work. You you've written a few books.
Speaker 1: One's called Confidence in one Minute, Persuade in one Minute,
Speaker 1: and Relax in one Minute. Let's talk about a couple
Speaker 1: of the techniques from the Relax in one Minute book.
Speaker 1: You know, things that we can do in a minute
Speaker 1: or so that can help us distress a little bit. Okay, well,
Speaker 1: Relax in a Minute was one of my three books.
Speaker 1: I started studying in MLP. Have you heard of MLP before?
Speaker 1: I have? Yep. Yeah, Yeah, it's UM. It's a it's
Speaker 1: a very awkward name to explain. It stands for neuro
Speaker 1: linguistic programming and It was invented in the seventies by
Speaker 1: a couple of guys in California, just when computers were
Speaker 1: starting to come in. And I thought, we'll give it
Speaker 1: a computer in NIM and it will sound legit. And
Speaker 1: now many of the people do it all over the world,
Speaker 1: but nobody knows what n LP is, but it stands
Speaker 1: for neuro linguistic programming anyway, and and really it's a
Speaker 1: study of how people do things well. Um, and I
Speaker 1: I found it very helpful kind of studying in it
Speaker 1: from my own perspective. And actually I was resented when
Speaker 1: I started studying this stuff and I started using the
Speaker 1: techniques on my radio show, and I mean I didn't
Speaker 1: tell my boss about it because I thought, but you know,
Speaker 1: I mean, I've only started learning this stuff a few
Speaker 1: weeks ago, but it'd be quite fun to practice the techniques.
Speaker 1: And after a couple of months he called me into
Speaker 1: his office and he said, I don't know what you've done.
Speaker 1: And I thought, I'm in trouble here because I've really
Speaker 1: been layering the techniques on thick and he said, I
Speaker 1: don't know what you've done, but you're listening. Figures have
Speaker 1: gone through the roof so so I've been using these
Speaker 1: techniques to kind of get people to feel better about listening,
Speaker 1: but also to listen longer and maybe to attract some
Speaker 1: new listeners to my show. And that's when I started
Speaker 1: to think there's something in this NLP stuff. If you
Speaker 1: like UM so, then there's plenty of persuasion stuff in there.
Speaker 1: But there's plenty of instant relaxation stuff in as well.
Speaker 1: So there's quite a lot of stuff based around anchoring.
Speaker 1: For example, UM anchoring would be have you ever heard
Speaker 1: of the story of Pavlov's dogs? Just to remind people
Speaker 1: who might not have heard it. Um Pavlov, very famous researcher,
Speaker 1: had his dogs and every time he fed his dogs,
Speaker 1: he would ring a little bell and the dogs would
Speaker 1: be very excited because they know they were about to
Speaker 1: get fed because the bell equaled feeding time, and they'd
Speaker 1: start to salivate, and after a while he could ring
Speaker 1: the bell on the dogs would salivate even if there
Speaker 1: was no food, which seems very unfair on the dogs,
Speaker 1: But that was the experiment, so I kind of um
Speaker 1: I adapted that with a technique called the spot, and
Speaker 1: I got people to put stickers around their house, maybe
Speaker 1: a sticker on your mirrors. You might wake up tomorrow morning,
Speaker 1: look in the mirror and they'd be a sticker on there,
Speaker 1: a spot sticker. And the reason that would work is
Speaker 1: because at some point in your past you felt relaxed,
Speaker 1: and we would have used that memory to help you
Speaker 1: start feel more relaxed every time you look at that sticker,
Speaker 1: which is quite nice. Let's talk a little bit more
Speaker 1: about that one, because I read that in one of
Speaker 1: your books, and so the idea is I go through
Speaker 1: a process of recalling a time that I'm relaxed, or
Speaker 1: a memory that makes me relaxed, I associate it with
Speaker 1: that spot. When I see the spot, I become more relaxed.
Speaker 1: But you also talk about switching them out fairly often.
Speaker 1: Is that just because after you see the same spot
Speaker 1: on the mirror for four days in a row, you
Speaker 1: start to ignore it. Well, yeah, you get to everything,
Speaker 1: You get used to everything in life. It's like it's like, Eric,
Speaker 1: I've just moved to a new house and we moved
Speaker 1: here last week, and we're so excited about it. It
Speaker 1: was a real doer upper and we bought it and
Speaker 1: it was in a real state and we you know,
Speaker 1: we got it cheaper because it was in a real state,
Speaker 1: and we changed all the carpets and you put nice
Speaker 1: wallpaper into that kind of thing. And um, every time
Speaker 1: I walk around the house, I noticed different things that
Speaker 1: we've done that made it look really nice. Now give
Speaker 1: it six months and I won't notice any of that.
Speaker 1: I'll just be acclimatized to it. But I'm noticing it
Speaker 1: all at the moment um. So that's the idea behind
Speaker 1: switching up. By the way, before I go any further,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for doing so much research on me.
Speaker 1: I really I really appreciate it. You've properly delved into
Speaker 1: my work, and it's it's very kind of you. I
Speaker 1: tried to always do that always. It's really it's really
Speaker 1: really impressive. Thank you. If you're going to take the
Speaker 1: time to come on, I should have taken the time
Speaker 1: to to know more about you and have a good conversation.
Speaker 1: So appreciate it. I really do. Yeah, thank you. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And the spot was inspired by a friend of mine, actually,
Speaker 1: Carl Morris, who was a sports psychologist. He's a kind
Speaker 1: of mind game coach. And there was a golfer called
Speaker 1: Louis Ustazn who he's still one of the top golfers
Speaker 1: in the world, and he won the British Open Golf Championship.
Speaker 1: And throughout the four days of competition, the TV cameras
Speaker 1: kept zoning in on his bag and he had this
Speaker 1: small red spot on his clothing. He'd on his golf
Speaker 1: glove and the TV cameras picked up on it. And
Speaker 1: after he won, everyone was asking about this kind of
Speaker 1: strange red spot and saying, well, what's that all to
Speaker 1: do to do with? And he'd been working with Carl Morris,
Speaker 1: He's a friend of mine and to help his concentration levels. Carl,
Speaker 1: just like paffle Off with his dogs, had anchored the
Speaker 1: feeling of concentration to that red spot. And I can
Speaker 1: do it with your listeners right now if you want to,
Speaker 1: if you want to kind of do a similar technique.
Speaker 1: I mean, let's think of as people listen, just look
Speaker 1: at something in the room that you're in so I
Speaker 1: don't know, it might be a picture on the wall
Speaker 1: for example. Um, and if you're driving, don't take your
Speaker 1: eyes off the rope. If not, then find find something
Speaker 1: and focus on that. And now think about a time
Speaker 1: when you felt very relaxed. You might have been on holiday,
Speaker 1: or you might have been sitting in your favorite arm chair,
Speaker 1: and remember exactly what you could see and exactly what
Speaker 1: you could hear, and how it felt to feel really
Speaker 1: relaxed as you look at this item that you've picked
Speaker 1: and kind of turn the feelings of relaxation up, make
Speaker 1: the colors brighter in your mind of how relaxed you felt,
Speaker 1: and make the sounds loud and vivid and clear in
Speaker 1: your mind. Remember exactly what you could hear at the
Speaker 1: time as you look at this picture, as you look
Speaker 1: at whatever you've picked, and you are now using this
Speaker 1: process known as anchoring. And the theory is that the
Speaker 1: next time that you walk into the room that you're
Speaker 1: in and you look at this item that you've picked
Speaker 1: to anchor these feelings of relaxation, you'll feel that same
Speaker 1: sense of relaxation again. And if you're a bit skeptical
Speaker 1: about whether that works or not, just go into an
Speaker 1: old photo album of maybe a holiday, for example, and
Speaker 1: look through some of those pictures and see how you feel.
Speaker 1: Notice how you feel. That's anchoring in action. Very interesting.
Speaker 1: That is a great great technique to try. And the
Speaker 1: thing I liked about your books was just how quick
Speaker 1: some of these things, well there one minute, right, which
Speaker 1: is which is um important for a lot of us,
Speaker 1: a lot of us, you know, I know that, you know,
Speaker 1: I work with a lot of people who the biggest
Speaker 1: struggle is finding time to do this what appears to
Speaker 1: be a nearly endless list of things to do to
Speaker 1: improve our mental, emotional, physical health, right, And so I
Speaker 1: think anything that can help us do them quicker. I
Speaker 1: tend to believe that like along with little quick things
Speaker 1: that it's in the tagline of the show, and I
Speaker 1: Chris reads at the beginning, takes a constant, consistent and
Speaker 1: creative effort to make a life that's worth living. So
Speaker 1: it is effort. But I do think that more of
Speaker 1: these little things that we can do is we're on
Speaker 1: the go and moving about our lives. That's great. So
Speaker 1: what's another one for anxiety that you really like? This
Speaker 1: neuro linguistic programming can seem like a quite a complicated discipline,
Speaker 1: which is why I was quite keen to kind of
Speaker 1: break it down into these very simple steps. And it's
Speaker 1: it's very interesting the way it's been greeted. The books
Speaker 1: actually because here in the UK they didn't sell that well,
Speaker 1: which is a little bit disappointing, but there you go.
Speaker 1: But then they did, They got translated into loads of
Speaker 1: different languages and much more popular around the world than England.
Speaker 1: So um, so obviously resonates with some people, perhaps not
Speaker 1: Brits in quite the same way. Um. But yeah, I
Speaker 1: wanted to break down the techniques to make them kind
Speaker 1: of very simple. And one of the things that we
Speaker 1: look at in n LP is something another great technical term,
Speaker 1: sub modalities. Um. But when when that involves your internal voice,
Speaker 1: it can be very helpful. You know. Buddhists call your
Speaker 1: internal voice the chattering monkey, which sits on your shoulder
Speaker 1: all day and talks and it's not very helpful and
Speaker 1: says you can't do that, and you shouldn't do this,
Speaker 1: and you know that won't work, and comes up with
Speaker 1: the worst possible outcomes to events. So I work with
Speaker 1: people to turn down their internal voice. If your internal
Speaker 1: voice is positive and happy and comes up with loads
Speaker 1: of great suggestions, then you can turn it out. But
Speaker 1: if the internal voice is not helpful, you can change
Speaker 1: the way that you experience it, because after all, it's
Speaker 1: only in your mind, you know, if it's in your imagination,
Speaker 1: you can use your imagination to turn it down. So
Speaker 1: if you've got an internal voice that causes your anxiety,
Speaker 1: that's causing your problems, that isn't very helpful at times,
Speaker 1: and to be honest, most of us have um you
Speaker 1: can listen to it, and you can become aware of
Speaker 1: its tone and volume and perhaps where it is spatially,
Speaker 1: is it behind you or in front of you? And
Speaker 1: then imagine you have a large volume knob in your
Speaker 1: mind and grab it and turn it down and start
Speaker 1: to turn your internal voice all the way down until
Speaker 1: it gets quieter and quieter until it gets to one,
Speaker 1: and then switch it off and enjoy the silence. So
Speaker 1: it's just a fun technique. And obviously all the metaphors,
Speaker 1: as is the you know, the parable around which your
Speaker 1: podcast is created. But these metaphors often work very, very effectively.
Speaker 1: Another thing you can do with your internal voices, move
Speaker 1: it away, put it in a different If it's in
Speaker 1: front of you, put it behind you. And if it's
Speaker 1: a very serious voice, give it a cartoon character's voice.
Speaker 1: Make it sound like Homer Simpson and see if it
Speaker 1: has the same amount of power. I love all those
Speaker 1: approaches to the inner voice. They're talked about often in
Speaker 1: acceptance and commitment therapy, which I'm guessing they borrowed a
Speaker 1: lot from NLP because NLP has been around a lot longer.
Speaker 1: But an acceptance and commitment therapy, often known as ACT
Speaker 1: or a c T, they give the same sort of thing,
Speaker 1: like make that internal voice in to something that is
Speaker 1: other than you. We we tend to hear that internal
Speaker 1: voice and we think that's me. And all the techniques
Speaker 1: that you just described are ways of making it other,
Speaker 1: their ways of breaking. The term is in ACT. The
Speaker 1: term is cognitive fusion. Right, we are completely fused with
Speaker 1: that internal voice. We believe it to be us, We
Speaker 1: believe it to be true. And all those techniques you
Speaker 1: just talked about our ways of creating a little distance
Speaker 1: between us and that voice. If you imagine moving it
Speaker 1: or turning it down. You know, you don't turn yourself down, right,
Speaker 1: You don't move your internal self, right, but you can
Speaker 1: move the voice, which helps at least, you know, in
Speaker 1: my my perspective of it helps to to sort of
Speaker 1: give me some space from that voice. Yeah. One, Acceptance
Speaker 1: and commitment therapy sounds fantastic. What else do I need
Speaker 1: to know from that? Oh, it's a it's a really
Speaker 1: fascinating therapy I had. I had a listener wrote to
Speaker 1: me several years ago he said, do you know about
Speaker 1: acceptance and commitment therapy? I said no. He's like, well,
Speaker 1: you ought to look into it because it basically sounds
Speaker 1: like your life philosophy, and I want, oh, that's interesting.
Speaker 1: So I did look into it, and um, I I
Speaker 1: you know, I agreed. It's very much at its most
Speaker 1: basic premise is we can't necessarily change how we feel
Speaker 1: or what we think. But what we can do is
Speaker 1: we can act in a way that's accordance with our values.
Speaker 1: So what they're really after is, you know, ultimately a
Speaker 1: very much an action focused you act in according to
Speaker 1: your values, and as you do that, lots of things
Speaker 1: in life improved. Because for a lot of people who
Speaker 1: have issues psychologically, you know, things like avoidance are a
Speaker 1: big part of it, right, Like I don't like how
Speaker 1: I feel when I do that or when this happens,
Speaker 1: so I avoid it, and then that just makes everything worse.
Speaker 1: The avoidance, you know, compiles on itself, and so acceptance
Speaker 1: and commitment therapy is really about like, of course, we
Speaker 1: should do everything we can to try and you know,
Speaker 1: minimize our mental and emotional suffering. But the other thing
Speaker 1: to do is to accept it, allow it to be there,
Speaker 1: but still act according to our values. And so that's
Speaker 1: the heart of it. But they've got so many great techniques.
Speaker 1: There's two guys you might want to look into them
Speaker 1: for your show through Russ Harris and Steven C. Hayes.
Speaker 1: Um Stephen ce Hayes has a book called Get Out
Speaker 1: of Your Mind and Into Your Life or something like that,
Speaker 1: which is just it is such a good book. We've
Speaker 1: I've interviewed both those guys and we recently re release
Speaker 1: re release the Steven C. Hayes episode because it is
Speaker 1: so good. So I love those guys and I think
Speaker 1: it's such a fascinating view on life. They're very focused
Speaker 1: on mindfulness, right, it's a it's a it's a therapy
Speaker 1: that has mindfulness kind of baked right into the center
Speaker 1: of it. So for me, you know, it does align
Speaker 1: with so much of what I believe, which is about
Speaker 1: you know, it's our actions that we take that ultimately
Speaker 1: determine the quality of our lives. And again, you know,
Speaker 1: my my most used phrase on this show, and maybe
Speaker 1: we'll talk about it on your show. Is that, Um,
Speaker 1: sometimes you can't think your way in the right action,
Speaker 1: you have to act your way in the right thinking.
Speaker 1: And so acceptance of commitment therapy is that would be
Speaker 1: a good summary of it. Okay, Yeah, And I certainly
Speaker 1: think you know, authenticity is more prized than it has
Speaker 1: ever been, isn't it? And and that these days, because
Speaker 1: we all live our lives so in such a public manner,
Speaker 1: you can't get away with being inauthentic because people will
Speaker 1: sniff you out in a moment. And I think these
Speaker 1: days our kind of public heroes, and especially kind of
Speaker 1: social media heroes, they're the ones who are living in
Speaker 1: a very authentic way. Now might not be their values,
Speaker 1: might not be something you agree with, but there's there's
Speaker 1: an authenticity about them that it's hard to deny. And
Speaker 1: and dare I say it, Eric, And I'm probably wading
Speaker 1: into murky territory here, But the way that that Trump
Speaker 1: lives his life online, whether you agree with him or
Speaker 1: hate him, he doesn't hold back, does he He says
Speaker 1: what he thinks that's right. And and that does seem
Speaker 1: to be a big part of his appeal to certain
Speaker 1: people is you know, he's really who he is which
Speaker 1: is actually I think is absolutely true. Although the thing
Speaker 1: about it, well, I'm not gonna I'm not going to
Speaker 1: get into it. Oh, go on, get into it. Well,
Speaker 1: I was just gonna say that, you know, I think
Speaker 1: the thing about Trump that's so amazing to me is
Speaker 1: that usually when you hear somebody's being authentic, you're like, well,
Speaker 1: they're true to who they really are. They're true too,
Speaker 1: you know. But but you know, to me, Trump just
Speaker 1: seems to be like he's true to whatever mood comes
Speaker 1: up or whatever emotion comes up. There's no deeper orienting
Speaker 1: authenticity there, right, Yeah, No, that sounds like it makes
Speaker 1: perfect sense. Yeah, Or maybe the the authenticity is just
Speaker 1: simply the inth inauthentici deal or like, you know, I mean,
Speaker 1: he's authentic in his ego. There's no Yeah, I think
Speaker 1: that's a pretty pretty safe statement. But yeah, I do
Speaker 1: agree authenticity is something that people seem to really hunger
Speaker 1: for these days. Definitely. I started in broadcasting, you know,
Speaker 1: twenty years ago, and and then the I was a
Speaker 1: radio presenter preten years before I started working as a
Speaker 1: TV presenter, and the radio presenters, you know, they all
Speaker 1: talked like this, and they all had these kind of
Speaker 1: public personalities and that is just not the way people
Speaker 1: really talk or the way people really are. And now
Speaker 1: you can't really get away with that style. You know.
Speaker 1: That's a pretty good impression, though, I mean that was
Speaker 1: that was good, and I know I was almost that
Speaker 1: kind of radio present to myself, but I managed to
Speaker 1: escape just into just in time. Yeah, well, I think
Speaker 1: we are nearing the end of our time here, Tony.
Speaker 1: You and I are going to talk briefly in the
Speaker 1: post show conversation. I want to talk about your persuade
Speaker 1: in one minute book. In the post show conversation, I
Speaker 1: kind of want to talk about the difference between persuasion
Speaker 1: and manipulation. You and I'll get into that in the
Speaker 1: post show conversation. Listeners, if you're interested in becoming a member,
Speaker 1: you can go to one you feed dot net slash
Speaker 1: support and we have post show conversation ad free episodes
Speaker 1: and a mini episode for me every week. So when
Speaker 1: you feed dot net slash support, Tony, thanks so much.
Speaker 1: I've really enjoyed this conversation. I have too, Larry, and
Speaker 1: I really look forward to you coming on Zestology as well,
Speaker 1: and any of your listeners who want to kind of
Speaker 1: hop over there and have a listen to that chat
Speaker 1: with you. That'd be great. And yeah, it's just been
Speaker 1: really good. Thanks for all the preparation you've done for
Speaker 1: this interview. That terrific. You're welcome, all right, thanks so much.
Speaker 1: Bye yea. If what you just heard was helpful to you,
Speaker 1: please consider making a donation to the one you Feed podcast.
Speaker 1: Head over to one you feed dot net.