WEBVTT - Alison Roman's Plan to Conquer the Tomato Sauce Market 0:00:02.720 --> 0:00:10.680 Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, Radio News. 0:00:18.560 --> 0:00:21.840 Hello and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots podcast. 0:00:21.920 --> 0:00:24.279 I'm joll Wisenthal and I'm Tracy Alloway. 0:00:24.680 --> 0:00:28.200 So Tracy recording this on February fourth. And a lot 0:00:28.200 --> 0:00:30.680 of tech stocs have been getting clobbered lately. But you 0:00:30.720 --> 0:00:35.040 know what's doing really well what companies that make consumer staples, 0:00:35.120 --> 0:00:37.760 all of like the core staples that you'd seen your pantry, 0:00:37.760 --> 0:00:40.760 et cetera, like your pepsicolas and all this stuff. Companies 0:00:40.760 --> 0:00:43.760 that might make like jarred sauces and stuff people are 0:00:43.800 --> 0:00:47.760 returning to sort of the old style basics that people 0:00:47.800 --> 0:00:48.760 buy on the stock mart. 0:00:48.760 --> 0:00:50.680 Who would have thought that food is linked. 0:00:50.800 --> 0:00:54.440 Yeah, amazing food persist. No, but it's serious. You know, 0:00:54.480 --> 0:00:56.760 it's like the only place to hide right now on 0:00:56.840 --> 0:00:59.240 the market. Like I look at my screen and everything 0:00:59.280 --> 0:01:01.760 is bright red, and the only thing that people feel 0:01:01.760 --> 0:01:05.520 comfortable betting on right now seems to basically be food. 0:01:05.880 --> 0:01:08.400 The stuff that people pausta sauce and the stuff that 0:01:08.480 --> 0:01:10.480 people have eaten for all time and probably will be 0:01:10.520 --> 0:01:12.240 eating for as long as there are people on. 0:01:12.200 --> 0:01:15.440 Earth, right and this always So I find this business 0:01:15.600 --> 0:01:18.560 really interesting because you know, I joke that food is 0:01:18.640 --> 0:01:22.160 Lindy in many ways, but you know, like food is right, 0:01:22.360 --> 0:01:26.200 food is essential, but it's also constantly changing. Yeah, it 0:01:26.200 --> 0:01:28.800 feels like and so I'm always very curious about how 0:01:29.120 --> 0:01:34.679 consumer brands actually make pricing decisions, branding decisions, especially because 0:01:34.720 --> 0:01:37.520 it also feels like an area that's very crowded. You know, 0:01:37.640 --> 0:01:40.160 you walk into the supermarket and there's like totally twenty 0:01:40.200 --> 0:01:43.720 different brands of I don't know, flower or something. 0:01:44.000 --> 0:01:45.560 No, totally you know. One of the things. You know, 0:01:45.600 --> 0:01:48.800 we've done various CpG episodes over the years. We did 0:01:48.840 --> 0:01:52.120 some episodes about like Celsius energy drink and stuff. And 0:01:52.200 --> 0:01:54.520 one of the themes that we sort of maybe I 0:01:54.560 --> 0:01:58.120 hadn't appreciated prior, is like that competition for shelf space, 0:01:58.440 --> 0:02:02.160 the distribution aspect, getting on the shelf, getting a spot 0:02:02.200 --> 0:02:05.520 in the truck that delivers the beverages to the grocery 0:02:05.520 --> 0:02:07.960 store or to the bodega or whatever. Like, so much 0:02:08.000 --> 0:02:11.160 of the game is yes, the brand, yes the product, 0:02:11.480 --> 0:02:13.919 and then just the sort of logistical aspects of it. 0:02:14.040 --> 0:02:16.360 And I think like that sort of we don't talk 0:02:16.400 --> 0:02:18.720 about it enough, but as a theme, I love like 0:02:19.080 --> 0:02:23.320 learning about this space, how the CpG business works, especially 0:02:23.360 --> 0:02:26.320 in regards to pricing and so forth. It's so illuminatory 0:02:26.560 --> 0:02:29.639 about how the whole economy works. Is that a word illuminating? 0:02:29.760 --> 0:02:32.639 Illuminating? Very good? Well, we do have the perfect guest. 0:02:32.760 --> 0:02:35.200 I'm very excited to say we do have the perfect 0:02:35.240 --> 0:02:38.320 guest today, someone who is in the tomato sauce business, 0:02:38.360 --> 0:02:41.320 but really known for so much more. One of the 0:02:41.560 --> 0:02:43.600 I would say, most famous people in the food world 0:02:43.840 --> 0:02:46.080 these days. We are going to be speaking with Alison Roman. 0:02:46.280 --> 0:02:49.160 She's a cook and the author. She has a grocery 0:02:49.320 --> 0:02:52.720 store called First Balloom that I missed when they had 0:02:52.720 --> 0:02:54.160 a pop up Manhattan location. 0:02:54.200 --> 0:02:54.600 I missed it. 0:02:54.600 --> 0:02:58.240 Hopefully that'll get reopened at some point, and tomato sauce 0:02:58.240 --> 0:03:01.440 business called a very good tomatoes sauce. So, Allison, thank 0:03:01.480 --> 0:03:03.400 you so much for coming on odd lots. 0:03:03.160 --> 0:03:05.520 Oh thank you for having me. This is a pleasure. Joe. 0:03:05.560 --> 0:03:07.639 Can I ask you a question before we start, which 0:03:07.680 --> 0:03:10.440 is I know you love fresh tomatoes. Do you also 0:03:10.560 --> 0:03:11.720 love tomato sauce? 0:03:11.960 --> 0:03:12.200 Yeah? 0:03:12.280 --> 0:03:16.000 Yeah, okay, that's right, that's right there. 0:03:16.040 --> 0:03:16.639 One for both. 0:03:16.720 --> 0:03:19.679 I'm glad, I'm glad we got this in all right. 0:03:20.120 --> 0:03:23.519 Where to begin? So you are this a genuine celebrity 0:03:23.520 --> 0:03:26.079 of the food world. People are addicted and they love 0:03:26.120 --> 0:03:29.240 your recipes. I just at home two nights ago my 0:03:29.320 --> 0:03:31.440 wife made your I think it was like a broccoli 0:03:31.560 --> 0:03:33.120 cheddar soup that you have a recipe for. 0:03:33.520 --> 0:03:34.480 It was fantastic. 0:03:35.160 --> 0:03:38.440 It's a deep cut. I've had your famous chickpease stew 0:03:38.800 --> 0:03:41.600 that went viral. I've had multiple recipes go viral. But 0:03:41.960 --> 0:03:45.320 how did you decide to get into Why why a 0:03:45.360 --> 0:03:46.080 tomato sauce? 0:03:46.760 --> 0:03:48.920 I think I well, I got my start working in 0:03:48.960 --> 0:03:51.840 professional kitchens, and I worked an editorial and then I 0:03:51.920 --> 0:03:54.000 sort of went off on my own writing books and 0:03:54.280 --> 0:03:58.520 doing miscellaneous things. And my whole career as sort of 0:03:58.560 --> 0:04:01.480 a recipe writer cookbook author has been teaching you how 0:04:01.480 --> 0:04:04.400 to cook and being like, why would you buy anything 0:04:04.400 --> 0:04:06.120 when you can make it yourself, you know, as the 0:04:06.160 --> 0:04:10.480 person who their pantry is lined with like ingredients rather 0:04:10.520 --> 0:04:14.480 than you know things. So it's funny that I then 0:04:14.520 --> 0:04:16.800 got into tomato sauce business because I've written recipes for 0:04:16.839 --> 0:04:18.560 tomato sauce and I'm very proud of mine, and I 0:04:18.600 --> 0:04:20.840 think it's delicious and easy to make and anyone can 0:04:20.880 --> 0:04:24.280 do it. And then the older I got and I 0:04:24.320 --> 0:04:25.520 married a man who. 0:04:25.360 --> 0:04:26.120 Does not cook. 0:04:26.320 --> 0:04:28.480 I had a baby. The baby does not cook yet either. 0:04:28.600 --> 0:04:31.359 Unfortunately I needed to eat more. I needed someone to 0:04:31.360 --> 0:04:33.480 cook for me. And it just became sort of this 0:04:33.800 --> 0:04:36.200 question I had of like, why am I so allergic 0:04:36.200 --> 0:04:37.960 to the tomato sauces on the market? Why am I 0:04:38.000 --> 0:04:42.000 not embracing of the things that are currently available? And 0:04:42.720 --> 0:04:45.599 I realize it's because I'm well, a very picky be 0:04:46.080 --> 0:04:47.320 probably very snobby. 0:04:47.560 --> 0:04:48.960 See, I just was sort. 0:04:48.760 --> 0:04:50.560 Of, you know, like I do want to make it myself. 0:04:50.600 --> 0:04:53.120 I do want the sort of control here. So I 0:04:53.200 --> 0:04:56.360 made it myself. And when I had opened the grocery 0:04:56.400 --> 0:04:59.440 store first Bloom, I decided to start including it as 0:04:59.480 --> 0:05:00.920 like a line of things that we would keep in 0:05:00.960 --> 0:05:03.720 the freezer, chicken broth, beans, tomato sauce, things that we 0:05:03.760 --> 0:05:06.720 would make in the store to sell to people at 0:05:06.720 --> 0:05:12.400 the market. And very soon the demand exceeded supply. And I, 0:05:12.480 --> 0:05:13.800 you know, for all the things that I do, I 0:05:13.839 --> 0:05:15.799 did not want to be full time making tomato sauce. 0:05:15.839 --> 0:05:17.640 There was just I didn't have the equipment, I didn't 0:05:17.680 --> 0:05:18.120 have the time. 0:05:18.560 --> 0:05:21.200 And so I was approached by somebody who is in 0:05:21.520 --> 0:05:24.280 the tomato sauce making business, and she was like, why 0:05:24.320 --> 0:05:27.360 don't you just outsource it and have somebody make your recipe? 0:05:27.440 --> 0:05:29.279 And I was like, well, how's that going to work? 0:05:29.400 --> 0:05:31.720 You know, like, how won't people know the difference? And 0:05:31.880 --> 0:05:35.000 how could it possibly scale? And through a lot of 0:05:35.000 --> 0:05:37.600 trial and error, I figured out we can scale it. 0:05:38.240 --> 0:05:40.839 Definitely want to ask about scaling up. But before we do, 0:05:41.279 --> 0:05:45.159 were you daunted at all by doing tomato sauce specifically? 0:05:45.240 --> 0:05:47.320 Because this seems to be an area where there is 0:05:47.360 --> 0:05:50.359 a lot of competition, especially between I can think of 0:05:50.400 --> 0:05:54.000 two like big players, which would be Roused and Carbone, Right, 0:05:54.960 --> 0:05:56.520 what are those cheap stuff? 0:05:56.560 --> 0:05:58.040 But I guess those aren't really the competitors. 0:05:58.160 --> 0:06:01.880 Yeah, I bought the Carbone things, which probably maybe says 0:06:01.920 --> 0:06:05.640 something about it. But anyway, how do you differentiate your 0:06:05.680 --> 0:06:09.560 product from you know, those names with very very strong 0:06:09.600 --> 0:06:11.320 branding and customer recognition. 0:06:11.720 --> 0:06:11.920 Yeah. 0:06:11.960 --> 0:06:15.279 I think it's an interesting thing because sometimes often people 0:06:15.360 --> 0:06:17.480 start a business saying, what doesn't exist, there's a whole 0:06:17.480 --> 0:06:19.560 in the market, I'm going to fill it, And obviously 0:06:19.600 --> 0:06:23.599 tomato sauce, there are many brands constantly fighting for sale 0:06:23.640 --> 0:06:26.799 prices and shelf space but there wasn't a tomato sauce 0:06:26.800 --> 0:06:28.080 like mine, and there wasn't. 0:06:28.320 --> 0:06:30.320 I find that most tomato sauce is on the market. 0:06:30.120 --> 0:06:33.600 Especially the popular ones Rios Carbone, et cetera, are more 0:06:33.640 --> 0:06:36.839 marin era in style. They are you know, more uniform 0:06:36.839 --> 0:06:40.919 and texture, They are sweeter, they tend to have a 0:06:40.960 --> 0:06:43.840 regular there's just like a specific vibe that they're going for. 0:06:43.880 --> 0:06:46.359 And I think, to me, sort of modeled after the 0:06:46.400 --> 0:06:48.880 like old school progresso, which is what my mom thought 0:06:48.920 --> 0:06:51.520 growing up, and that's what I ate, and I think 0:06:51.520 --> 0:06:53.200 that that was sort of the gold standard, and people 0:06:53.240 --> 0:06:55.480 kind of went down that path. And it's interesting because 0:06:55.520 --> 0:06:58.400 we talk about Carbone as like the top two. They 0:06:58.400 --> 0:07:00.680 are not very old, yeah, and so we in our 0:07:00.760 --> 0:07:03.120 consciousness are like, oh, well that's the top two. Well 0:07:03.360 --> 0:07:04.960 they've only been the top two for as long as 0:07:05.000 --> 0:07:07.640 they've been around, which somebody can fact check, but I 0:07:07.720 --> 0:07:10.440 believe it's only a few years yea. And so it's 0:07:10.480 --> 0:07:12.760 not like this legacy brand that I'm competing with. It's 0:07:12.840 --> 0:07:17.239 just another company with name recognition, a lot of financial backing, 0:07:17.480 --> 0:07:20.760 and strong branding. And I also noticed that all the 0:07:20.800 --> 0:07:24.760 tomato sauces were sort of like chef focused and male 0:07:25.320 --> 0:07:27.880 dominated energy. It was sort of like a chef, a guy, 0:07:27.960 --> 0:07:30.480 a bro, a person's name that was a guy. 0:07:30.400 --> 0:07:30.960 And I don't know. 0:07:31.040 --> 0:07:32.760 I just was sort of like, I want to do 0:07:32.800 --> 0:07:34.760 something totally different, even if it's tomato sauce. I don't 0:07:34.760 --> 0:07:38.000 think they're all created equal, and so with everything I do, 0:07:38.080 --> 0:07:41.520 I genuinely try to ask myself does this already exist? 0:07:41.560 --> 0:07:42.720 And if not, then I want to make it. 0:07:42.960 --> 0:07:45.320 I have some thoughts about chef bro Energy, but I'm 0:07:45.320 --> 0:07:47.160 going to save them for after the podcast. I can't 0:07:47.200 --> 0:07:50.840 wait to save them for after the episode. I want 0:07:50.880 --> 0:07:54.000 to talk about the entire from your conception in your 0:07:54.040 --> 0:07:57.600 mind to the end consumer, the whole supply chain. So 0:07:57.640 --> 0:07:59.680 I want to really break it down and understand it. 0:07:59.800 --> 0:08:02.600 But let's start with, like, how do you scale up 0:08:02.600 --> 0:08:05.320 a recipe because quality control. You have some recipe that 0:08:05.360 --> 0:08:07.080 you make in your kitchen and you really like it, 0:08:07.120 --> 0:08:10.120 et cetera. Then making it in large batches is a 0:08:10.200 --> 0:08:12.480 totally different game, and then you're not there to supervise 0:08:12.520 --> 0:08:14.400 it all the time. Talk to us a little bit 0:08:14.400 --> 0:08:17.600 about that process, how just how that even works such 0:08:17.680 --> 0:08:19.920 that a recipe that you make at home can be 0:08:19.920 --> 0:08:22.760 done by someone else at a different facility in volume, 0:08:22.840 --> 0:08:24.080 and it's still the same recipe. 0:08:24.200 --> 0:08:25.720 Yeah, I think that you have to consider. 0:08:26.280 --> 0:08:28.440 You know, there's a lot of knowledge that goes into it, 0:08:28.480 --> 0:08:30.640 of like your knowledge of cooking and how ingredients. 0:08:31.280 --> 0:08:32.400 You know, they're not a one for one. 0:08:32.440 --> 0:08:34.320 You can't just multiply it by ten and be like 0:08:34.360 --> 0:08:36.120 this is going to be the same thing. Also, the 0:08:36.160 --> 0:08:38.320 equipment is different, how they're doing things are different. 0:08:38.320 --> 0:08:39.080 We have three flavors. 0:08:39.080 --> 0:08:41.199 We have a garlicy tomato which is sort of your classic, 0:08:41.679 --> 0:08:45.719 a spicy fannel which is spicy and has funnel as advertised, 0:08:46.000 --> 0:08:48.760 and then a caramelized shallatte anchovy which is modeled after 0:08:48.760 --> 0:08:50.480 the chalat pasta, which is which. 0:08:50.280 --> 0:08:54.439 Will pretty popular. I think we all at one point probably. 0:08:54.080 --> 0:08:57.400 If I if I have no fans, the chalotte pasta 0:08:57.400 --> 0:08:59.080 will still have a million like it is. 0:08:59.240 --> 0:09:00.720 It is more famous than I am, for sure. 0:09:01.080 --> 0:09:03.480 And that was the trickiest one to nail because the 0:09:03.960 --> 0:09:07.680 caramelizing of the shallets, the addition of anchovy. I ended 0:09:07.760 --> 0:09:10.439 up having to go back three times after we had 0:09:10.520 --> 0:09:13.480 jarred the first batch and adjust the recipe, which I 0:09:13.480 --> 0:09:16.239 didn't have to do with the others. But because shalots, 0:09:16.559 --> 0:09:18.800 when you caramelize it at large scale, they tend to 0:09:18.800 --> 0:09:21.920 get soft and jammy and very sweet, which increases the 0:09:21.960 --> 0:09:25.040 sweetness perception of the final product. We ended up switching 0:09:25.040 --> 0:09:27.319 to a different method of cooking the shalots. I ended 0:09:27.360 --> 0:09:30.360 up reducing the amount entirely cooking them further like it. 0:09:30.640 --> 0:09:32.280 The whole thing had to change as soon as we 0:09:32.320 --> 0:09:35.240 started getting to the batch size. And each co packer 0:09:35.280 --> 0:09:37.960 is different, so I think, you know an issue we 0:09:38.000 --> 0:09:40.400 can we'll get there. But if you talk about scaling, 0:09:40.480 --> 0:09:43.000 it's each co packer is going to handle things differently. 0:09:43.040 --> 0:09:44.880 And right now we're with a pretty small co packer, 0:09:44.920 --> 0:09:47.480 which I like because I can visit them in from 0:09:47.480 --> 0:09:51.040 my apartment. They're in Industry City, Brooklyn, and I go 0:09:51.160 --> 0:09:52.480 there and I can taste the batches. 0:09:52.520 --> 0:09:54.320 I can say, Okay, we. 0:09:54.280 --> 0:09:57.640 Multiplied the chili flake in this recipe, and now it's 0:09:57.679 --> 0:09:59.400 way too spicy, so we're actually going to cut it 0:09:59.440 --> 0:10:02.600 by half, which is it seems to stand a reason 0:10:02.640 --> 0:10:05.360 that would be not nearly as spicy, but because of 0:10:05.400 --> 0:10:07.199 the way the ingredients behave it is you know, so 0:10:07.240 --> 0:10:10.000 stuff like that where you're sort of in the lab 0:10:10.040 --> 0:10:12.800 as it were, tweaking as it goes. And I think 0:10:12.840 --> 0:10:16.400 that the more I explore the CpG world, that is 0:10:16.440 --> 0:10:19.400 the biggest challenge of You can't just send a recipe 0:10:19.400 --> 0:10:20.920 in and hope for the best, like you really have 0:10:21.000 --> 0:10:37.960 to be tweaking and adjusting at scale. 0:10:39.840 --> 0:10:43.200 How big is the tomato sauce making operation right now? 0:10:43.559 --> 0:10:45.840 Like in people, it's. 0:10:45.640 --> 0:10:49.800 Two people, two people, so it's relatively small. 0:10:49.920 --> 0:10:52.240 Yes, they have big, massive kettles, And I think that 0:10:52.760 --> 0:10:55.240 also when you think of like why tomato sauce, Like 0:10:55.320 --> 0:10:58.880 I just I kind of knew that getting there would 0:10:58.920 --> 0:11:01.840 maybe be the path of least resistance in that I'm 0:11:01.880 --> 0:11:05.320 not inventing something from scratch or not, you know, requiring 0:11:05.320 --> 0:11:07.439 equipment that nobody has, Like these are kettles that you 0:11:07.480 --> 0:11:09.560 can make many different things in, and so co packers 0:11:09.559 --> 0:11:12.720 are a bit easier to find. These particular copackers specialize 0:11:12.720 --> 0:11:15.280 in tomato sauce, and most that I've encountered do and 0:11:15.320 --> 0:11:19.760 that's like what they do, and so they are you know, 0:11:19.800 --> 0:11:20.480 well informed. 0:11:20.960 --> 0:11:22.880 I'm sorry, I might ask just a lot of like 0:11:22.960 --> 0:11:25.960 really remedial I love questions about this. So go deep 0:11:26.360 --> 0:11:29.160 the kitchen, the two person kitchen where they're making. That 0:11:29.240 --> 0:11:31.760 is a separate facility than the copacker or is it 0:11:31.800 --> 0:11:32.840 the same entity. 0:11:32.960 --> 0:11:33.800 It's the same entity. 0:11:34.120 --> 0:11:38.080 So we have the place, the warehouse where the tomato 0:11:38.120 --> 0:11:40.560 sauce gets made. They get the jars in, they sterilize 0:11:40.600 --> 0:11:42.760 the jars, they make the sauce, they botch the sauce, 0:11:42.760 --> 0:11:43.200 they put. 0:11:43.080 --> 0:11:43.840 Them in the boxes. 0:11:44.080 --> 0:11:47.760 The boxes then get shipped to a third party logistics warehouse, 0:11:47.800 --> 0:11:49.760 which is actually not far from where the tomato sauce 0:11:49.840 --> 0:11:50.079 is made. 0:11:50.160 --> 0:11:51.520 So we cut down on shipping a bit. 0:11:52.040 --> 0:11:55.160 And that is where the tomato sauce comes from when 0:11:55.200 --> 0:11:56.880 you order it online. Because right now we are we 0:11:56.960 --> 0:11:59.560 do have it in store up in the Upstate grocery store, 0:11:59.559 --> 0:12:02.200 but for a few reasons which we can also get into, 0:12:02.520 --> 0:12:04.160 we are just D two C. 0:12:04.760 --> 0:12:05.120 Got it. 0:12:05.200 --> 0:12:09.280 Yeah, And then again maybe very obvious question when it 0:12:09.320 --> 0:12:11.400 comes to you know, maybe at some point you grow 0:12:11.440 --> 0:12:14.160 and there'll be ten people, et cetera in the food industry. 0:12:14.679 --> 0:12:18.320 Are there chefs whose job is more or less to 0:12:18.679 --> 0:12:22.400 specialize in cooking at scale? Then basically it's like, Okay, 0:12:22.480 --> 0:12:25.319 someone has an idea for a tomato sauce, like you 0:12:25.320 --> 0:12:27.640 you know, you're not you can't be there every day. 0:12:27.720 --> 0:12:30.960 Are there people who like have professionalized the art of 0:12:31.320 --> 0:12:33.720 scaling up a volume. 0:12:33.880 --> 0:12:35.720 I mean, I've never heard of that job specifically, but 0:12:35.840 --> 0:12:39.680 I mean the guy who makes the tomato sauce for us, 0:12:39.720 --> 0:12:42.440 like that is his primary I mean he was a chef, 0:12:42.520 --> 0:12:44.800 you know, did a lot of catering, private chefing, et cetera. 0:12:45.240 --> 0:12:49.360 And then I think to understand how to make things 0:12:49.640 --> 0:12:51.640 at scale, you do have it's a lot of trial 0:12:51.679 --> 0:12:52.120 and error. 0:12:52.160 --> 0:12:54.319 You have to like understand it from a different perspective. 0:12:54.400 --> 0:12:57.360 But even working in restaurants, I experienced this because you 0:12:57.400 --> 0:13:00.839 take recipes built for a home cook actually say baking, 0:13:00.840 --> 0:13:02.679 you're going to make biscuits for a restaurant. You take 0:13:02.679 --> 0:13:04.760 a recipe that you like from somebody's cookbook what I 0:13:04.800 --> 0:13:06.800 don't know, and you're like, Okay, well, now I have 0:13:06.840 --> 0:13:08.560 to make these biscuits for I have to make two 0:13:08.640 --> 0:13:11.160 hundred of them a day. I'm not making sixteen, and 0:13:11.280 --> 0:13:13.920 you cannot just multiply that recipe ever, And. 0:13:13.800 --> 0:13:17.880 So I had a bit of experience in the baking. 0:13:17.600 --> 0:13:21.200 World working at scale, because you're never making sixteen of 0:13:21.240 --> 0:13:24.000 something in a pastry kitchen, you're making two hundred, and 0:13:24.760 --> 0:13:28.120 so you kind of understand. And also conversely, working at 0:13:28.120 --> 0:13:30.600 the Bonapetite Test Kitchen. When I first started working there, 0:13:30.600 --> 0:13:33.040 we were doing a lot more chef driven recipes. And 0:13:33.080 --> 0:13:35.680 when you work in a professional kitchen, you're making sauce, 0:13:35.840 --> 0:13:37.840 you're making sixteen quarts of sauce. You're not making two 0:13:37.880 --> 0:13:41.000 cups of sauce. So sort of reverse engineering that understanding 0:13:41.040 --> 0:13:44.280 that it's the same thing the ingredients EBB and flow, 0:13:44.360 --> 0:13:45.439 even if you're decreasing. 0:13:45.520 --> 0:13:48.680 So it's just kind of having that knowledge ahead of time. 0:13:48.720 --> 0:13:51.280 But I think that's how those people find themselves as 0:13:51.360 --> 0:13:53.640 a co packer, and as we look into other products 0:13:53.679 --> 0:13:55.920 to make, it's like, okay, well, these guys specialize in 0:13:56.000 --> 0:13:58.560 baked goods, these guys specialize in granola. These guys you 0:13:58.600 --> 0:14:01.720 know and there that's what they do, so they know. 0:14:02.480 --> 0:14:05.360 How did you go about finding suppliers? Because you know, 0:14:05.600 --> 0:14:09.000 I imagine you have some connections with your grocery store to 0:14:09.440 --> 0:14:12.320 you know, farmers maybe, but if you're doing it at 0:14:12.360 --> 0:14:14.880 scale or a larger scale than previously, how do you 0:14:14.880 --> 0:14:17.680 actually find someone who's going to provide you with a 0:14:17.679 --> 0:14:20.960 steady supply of tomatoes or a steady supply of schallllettes 0:14:21.000 --> 0:14:21.720 and Ancho beats. 0:14:21.760 --> 0:14:25.360 I guess yeah, we use canned tomatoes in the summer. 0:14:25.400 --> 0:14:30.000 We will do limit edition quantities of things like you know, 0:14:30.040 --> 0:14:33.800 brewce tomatoes, sung gold tomatoes, like more in season fresh stuff. 0:14:33.840 --> 0:14:36.160 But because tomatoes are so seasonal, and I also believe 0:14:36.160 --> 0:14:38.080 the best tomato SAUCEA does come from can tomatoes. 0:14:38.680 --> 0:14:41.040 That part isn't an issue, but it really is. 0:14:41.840 --> 0:14:44.560 I had worked with this one Isabelle, who had more 0:14:44.600 --> 0:14:47.480 experience in CpG, and we sort of figured it out 0:14:47.520 --> 0:14:51.120 together with a chief of staff Narni, and it was 0:14:51.160 --> 0:14:53.760 kind of the three of us looking at numbers and saying, 0:14:53.800 --> 0:14:56.840 like who's located where, what is the shipping going to cost, 0:14:57.280 --> 0:14:59.760 what tomatoes are they using, what tomatoes can they get? 0:15:00.280 --> 0:15:03.920 What is their capacity? Like how quickly can we grow here? 0:15:04.240 --> 0:15:07.920 And so all of those things come into factor because honestly, 0:15:08.040 --> 0:15:09.720 the type of chalots you're using at that scale, it 0:15:09.720 --> 0:15:12.440 doesn't really matter. I think it would be my dream 0:15:12.520 --> 0:15:15.360 to always use the highest quality ingredients. I'd love to 0:15:15.480 --> 0:15:18.760 use like old ugly shalots that nobody wants and the 0:15:18.800 --> 0:15:22.800 bad tomatoes and like make something beautiful from waste. And 0:15:23.360 --> 0:15:26.560 that's my aspiration, and that business model let down a 0:15:26.760 --> 0:15:32.360 very very expensive path and I think is achievable at massive. 0:15:32.000 --> 0:15:33.280 Scale, but we're just not there yet. 0:15:33.360 --> 0:15:34.520 Wait say more about that. 0:15:35.440 --> 0:15:41.400 Basically, that is sort of the issue with CpG in general. 0:15:41.680 --> 0:15:45.640 And if you want to make a small mom and 0:15:45.680 --> 0:15:49.840 pop like locally sourced, like beautifully made, responsibly, pay your 0:15:49.960 --> 0:15:53.280 workers excellent wages, and it's going to be like a 0:15:53.320 --> 0:15:55.360 thirty eight dollars jar of tomato sauce, and it's going 0:15:55.400 --> 0:15:58.000 to be a very limited market of people that are 0:15:58.000 --> 0:16:00.560 willing to pay for that. And you know, look at 0:16:00.840 --> 0:16:03.040 my local grocery store and I the first thing I 0:16:03.080 --> 0:16:04.320 do is I go to the tomato sauce aisle. 0:16:04.360 --> 0:16:06.280 I'm just like got to know what's going on over there. 0:16:06.480 --> 0:16:10.240 But you see REOs and Carbone on the same eye 0:16:10.320 --> 0:16:14.480 level and additional merchandising behind you, and they are both 0:16:14.520 --> 0:16:15.760 on sale for eight ninety nine. 0:16:16.080 --> 0:16:17.560 And that's a thirty two ounce jar. 0:16:18.080 --> 0:16:22.840 Our jars are sixteen ounces, and you know, twelve ninety 0:16:22.920 --> 0:16:24.120 nine or twelve dollars retail. 0:16:24.840 --> 0:16:27.680 Joe, I'm going to betray my elder millennial status. But 0:16:27.760 --> 0:16:31.160 I'm thinking of that Friend's episode where Monico starts making 0:16:31.360 --> 0:16:34.000 jam and selling it, and then she realizes that, like, 0:16:34.320 --> 0:16:36.760 in order to break even, it has to be seventeen 0:16:36.800 --> 0:16:38.680 dollars per jar, which was a lot back then. 0:16:39.760 --> 0:16:43.120 But guess who else made jam and me, Yeah, tell 0:16:43.200 --> 0:16:46.360 us about I mean that was a million years ago 0:16:46.360 --> 0:16:47.840 when I first moved to New York and I was 0:16:47.880 --> 0:16:50.440 working at Milk Bar at the time and used their 0:16:50.440 --> 0:16:53.040 commissary kitchen to sort of decide I was going to 0:16:53.080 --> 0:16:53.880 make jam and sell. 0:16:53.760 --> 0:16:55.960 It at the Williamsburg Smorgesberg. 0:16:56.160 --> 0:17:01.080 And when it first launched and saying oh and you know, 0:17:01.160 --> 0:17:04.560 handwriting each label like getting beautiful wek jars which cost 0:17:04.680 --> 0:17:07.600 four dollars a piece, Like the economics were so poor, 0:17:08.200 --> 0:17:10.320 I didn't care. I wanted to do it anyway, and 0:17:10.359 --> 0:17:12.520 as long as we could make more money to buy 0:17:12.560 --> 0:17:14.920 more jars and then make more jam. 0:17:15.000 --> 0:17:16.240 Obviously that was not sustainable. 0:17:16.280 --> 0:17:17.840 Didn't last for very long, maybe a year and a half, 0:17:17.920 --> 0:17:22.160 but same concept, where okay, in order to get this 0:17:22.640 --> 0:17:25.120 actually done and to actually turn a profit, you're like, okay, well, 0:17:25.240 --> 0:17:27.560 that's why people go for the juggular immediately and seek 0:17:27.600 --> 0:17:29.200 out you know, investment, and say we need to be 0:17:29.240 --> 0:17:30.080 in targeted to launch. 0:17:30.320 --> 0:17:32.560 So we've sort of talked a little bit about, you know, 0:17:32.640 --> 0:17:35.520 just scaling up the recipelet's little about business skill. 0:17:35.680 --> 0:17:35.920 Yeah. 0:17:36.000 --> 0:17:39.240 One of my favorite books I've read is the autobiography 0:17:39.440 --> 0:17:42.800 of the Nike founder Phil Nice Shoedog Shoe Doog, and 0:17:42.880 --> 0:17:45.400 he talks a lot about you know, they started small 0:17:45.480 --> 0:17:48.480 with sneakers, and then there was you know, this sort 0:17:48.520 --> 0:17:50.639 of jump where it's like he had the opportunity to 0:17:50.680 --> 0:17:53.280 get a lot bigger banks didn't really want to give 0:17:53.359 --> 0:17:56.320 him loans because it seemed dicey. It wasn't like a 0:17:56.400 --> 0:17:59.600 VC style business, but he clearly needed capital to sort 0:17:59.600 --> 0:18:02.080 of take it to the next level of like bigger factories, 0:18:02.200 --> 0:18:04.479 et cetera. Talk to us a little bit about like 0:18:04.840 --> 0:18:08.879 financial scaling and the risks that involve of like, Okay, 0:18:08.880 --> 0:18:10.320 one day, you don't want it to just be two 0:18:10.320 --> 0:18:12.280 people in a kitchen. You out to be twenty people 0:18:12.320 --> 0:18:15.119 or two hundred people in the kitchen. Well, that requires 0:18:15.440 --> 0:18:18.200 a lot of upfront costs and new warehouses. Maybe talk 0:18:18.440 --> 0:18:20.159 to us about how you're thinking about that or what 0:18:20.200 --> 0:18:22.920 you've seen on the landscape in terms of your options. 0:18:23.160 --> 0:18:26.040 Yeah, I mean, it seems like the what you're fed 0:18:26.080 --> 0:18:28.439 in terms of like the media coverage of brands and 0:18:28.480 --> 0:18:30.720 you're like, oh, this brand has three million dollars out 0:18:30.720 --> 0:18:32.600 of the gate and this brand has six men, And 0:18:32.720 --> 0:18:34.040 that doesn't mean that brand's going to succeed. 0:18:34.080 --> 0:18:35.800