1
00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:10,680
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, Radio News.

2
00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:21,840
Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots podcast.

3
00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:24,279
Speaker 3: I'm joll Wisenthal and I'm Tracy Alloway.

4
00:00:24,680 --> 00:00:28,200
Speaker 2: So Tracy recording this on February fourth. And a lot

5
00:00:28,200 --> 00:00:30,680
Speaker 2: of tech stocs have been getting clobbered lately. But you

6
00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:35,040
Speaker 2: know what's doing really well what companies that make consumer staples,

7
00:00:35,120 --> 00:00:37,760
Speaker 2: all of like the core staples that you'd seen your pantry,

8
00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:40,760
Speaker 2: et cetera, like your pepsicolas and all this stuff. Companies

9
00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:43,760
Speaker 2: that might make like jarred sauces and stuff people are

10
00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:47,760
Speaker 2: returning to sort of the old style basics that people

11
00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:48,760
Speaker 2: buy on the stock mart.

12
00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:50,680
Speaker 4: Who would have thought that food is linked.

13
00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:54,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, amazing food persist. No, but it's serious. You know,

14
00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:56,760
Speaker 2: it's like the only place to hide right now on

15
00:00:56,840 --> 00:00:59,240
Speaker 2: the market. Like I look at my screen and everything

16
00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:01,760
Speaker 2: is bright red, and the only thing that people feel

17
00:01:01,760 --> 00:01:05,520
Speaker 2: comfortable betting on right now seems to basically be food.

18
00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:08,400
Speaker 2: The stuff that people pausta sauce and the stuff that

19
00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:10,480
Speaker 2: people have eaten for all time and probably will be

20
00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:12,240
Speaker 2: eating for as long as there are people on.

21
00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:15,440
Speaker 4: Earth, right and this always So I find this business

22
00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:18,560
Speaker 4: really interesting because you know, I joke that food is

23
00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:22,160
Speaker 4: Lindy in many ways, but you know, like food is right,

24
00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:26,200
Speaker 4: food is essential, but it's also constantly changing. Yeah, it

25
00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:28,800
Speaker 4: feels like and so I'm always very curious about how

26
00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:34,679
Speaker 4: consumer brands actually make pricing decisions, branding decisions, especially because

27
00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:37,520
Speaker 4: it also feels like an area that's very crowded. You know,

28
00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:40,160
Speaker 4: you walk into the supermarket and there's like totally twenty

29
00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:43,720
Speaker 4: different brands of I don't know, flower or something.

30
00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:45,560
Speaker 2: No, totally you know. One of the things. You know,

31
00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:48,800
Speaker 2: we've done various CpG episodes over the years. We did

32
00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:52,120
Speaker 2: some episodes about like Celsius energy drink and stuff. And

33
00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:54,520
Speaker 2: one of the themes that we sort of maybe I

34
00:01:54,560 --> 00:01:58,120
Speaker 2: hadn't appreciated prior, is like that competition for shelf space,

35
00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:02,160
Speaker 2: the distribution aspect, getting on the shelf, getting a spot

36
00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:05,520
Speaker 2: in the truck that delivers the beverages to the grocery

37
00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:07,960
Speaker 2: store or to the bodega or whatever. Like, so much

38
00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:11,160
Speaker 2: of the game is yes, the brand, yes the product,

39
00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:13,919
Speaker 2: and then just the sort of logistical aspects of it.

40
00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:16,360
Speaker 2: And I think like that sort of we don't talk

41
00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:18,720
Speaker 2: about it enough, but as a theme, I love like

42
00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:23,320
Speaker 2: learning about this space, how the CpG business works, especially

43
00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:26,320
Speaker 2: in regards to pricing and so forth. It's so illuminatory

44
00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:29,639
Speaker 2: about how the whole economy works. Is that a word illuminating?

45
00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:32,639
Speaker 4: Illuminating? Very good? Well, we do have the perfect guest.

46
00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:35,200
Speaker 2: I'm very excited to say we do have the perfect

47
00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:38,320
Speaker 2: guest today, someone who is in the tomato sauce business,

48
00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:41,320
Speaker 2: but really known for so much more. One of the

49
00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:43,600
Speaker 2: I would say, most famous people in the food world

50
00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:46,080
Speaker 2: these days. We are going to be speaking with Alison Roman.

51
00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:49,160
Speaker 2: She's a cook and the author. She has a grocery

52
00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:52,720
Speaker 2: store called First Balloom that I missed when they had

53
00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:54,160
Speaker 2: a pop up Manhattan location.

54
00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:54,600
Speaker 5: I missed it.

55
00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:58,240
Speaker 2: Hopefully that'll get reopened at some point, and tomato sauce

56
00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:01,440
Speaker 2: business called a very good tomatoes sauce. So, Allison, thank

57
00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:03,400
Speaker 2: you so much for coming on odd lots.

58
00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:05,520
Speaker 5: Oh thank you for having me. This is a pleasure. Joe.

59
00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:07,639
Speaker 4: Can I ask you a question before we start, which

60
00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:10,440
Speaker 4: is I know you love fresh tomatoes. Do you also

61
00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:11,720
Speaker 4: love tomato sauce?

62
00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:12,200
Speaker 1: Yeah?

63
00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:16,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, okay, that's right, that's right there.

64
00:03:16,040 --> 00:03:16,639
Speaker 5: One for both.

65
00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:19,679
Speaker 2: I'm glad, I'm glad we got this in all right.

66
00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:23,519
Speaker 2: Where to begin? So you are this a genuine celebrity

67
00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:26,079
Speaker 2: of the food world. People are addicted and they love

68
00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:29,240
Speaker 2: your recipes. I just at home two nights ago my

69
00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:31,440
Speaker 2: wife made your I think it was like a broccoli

70
00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:33,120
Speaker 2: cheddar soup that you have a recipe for.

71
00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:34,480
Speaker 3: It was fantastic.

72
00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:38,440
Speaker 2: It's a deep cut. I've had your famous chickpease stew

73
00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:41,600
Speaker 2: that went viral. I've had multiple recipes go viral. But

74
00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:45,320
Speaker 2: how did you decide to get into Why why a

75
00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:46,080
Speaker 2: tomato sauce?

76
00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:48,920
Speaker 1: I think I well, I got my start working in

77
00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:51,840
Speaker 1: professional kitchens, and I worked an editorial and then I

78
00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:54,000
Speaker 1: sort of went off on my own writing books and

79
00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:58,520
Speaker 1: doing miscellaneous things. And my whole career as sort of

80
00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:01,480
Speaker 1: a recipe writer cookbook author has been teaching you how

81
00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:04,400
Speaker 1: to cook and being like, why would you buy anything

82
00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:06,120
Speaker 1: when you can make it yourself, you know, as the

83
00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:10,480
Speaker 1: person who their pantry is lined with like ingredients rather

84
00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:14,480
Speaker 1: than you know things. So it's funny that I then

85
00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:16,800
Speaker 1: got into tomato sauce business because I've written recipes for

86
00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:18,560
Speaker 1: tomato sauce and I'm very proud of mine, and I

87
00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:20,840
Speaker 1: think it's delicious and easy to make and anyone can

88
00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:24,280
Speaker 1: do it. And then the older I got and I

89
00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:25,520
Speaker 1: married a man who.

90
00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:26,120
Speaker 5: Does not cook.

91
00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:28,480
Speaker 1: I had a baby. The baby does not cook yet either.

92
00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:31,359
Speaker 1: Unfortunately I needed to eat more. I needed someone to

93
00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:33,480
Speaker 1: cook for me. And it just became sort of this

94
00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:36,200
Speaker 1: question I had of like, why am I so allergic

95
00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:37,960
Speaker 1: to the tomato sauces on the market? Why am I

96
00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:42,000
Speaker 1: not embracing of the things that are currently available? And

97
00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:45,599
Speaker 1: I realize it's because I'm well, a very picky be

98
00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:47,320
Speaker 1: probably very snobby.

99
00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:48,960
Speaker 5: See, I just was sort.

100
00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:50,560
Speaker 1: Of, you know, like I do want to make it myself.

101
00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:53,120
Speaker 1: I do want the sort of control here. So I

102
00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:56,360
Speaker 1: made it myself. And when I had opened the grocery

103
00:04:56,400 --> 00:04:59,440
Speaker 1: store first Bloom, I decided to start including it as

104
00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:00,920
Speaker 1: like a line of things that we would keep in

105
00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:03,720
Speaker 1: the freezer, chicken broth, beans, tomato sauce, things that we

106
00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:06,720
Speaker 1: would make in the store to sell to people at

107
00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:12,400
Speaker 1: the market. And very soon the demand exceeded supply. And I,

108
00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:13,800
Speaker 1: you know, for all the things that I do, I

109
00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:15,799
Speaker 1: did not want to be full time making tomato sauce.

110
00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:17,640
Speaker 5: There was just I didn't have the equipment, I didn't

111
00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:18,120
Speaker 5: have the time.

112
00:05:18,560 --> 00:05:21,200
Speaker 1: And so I was approached by somebody who is in

113
00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:24,280
Speaker 1: the tomato sauce making business, and she was like, why

114
00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:27,360
Speaker 1: don't you just outsource it and have somebody make your recipe?

115
00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:29,279
Speaker 5: And I was like, well, how's that going to work?

116
00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:31,720
Speaker 1: You know, like, how won't people know the difference? And

117
00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:35,000
Speaker 1: how could it possibly scale? And through a lot of

118
00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:37,600
Speaker 1: trial and error, I figured out we can scale it.

119
00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:40,839
Speaker 4: Definitely want to ask about scaling up. But before we do,

120
00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:45,159
Speaker 4: were you daunted at all by doing tomato sauce specifically?

121
00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:47,320
Speaker 4: Because this seems to be an area where there is

122
00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:50,359
Speaker 4: a lot of competition, especially between I can think of

123
00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:54,000
Speaker 4: two like big players, which would be Roused and Carbone, Right,

124
00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:56,520
Speaker 4: what are those cheap stuff?

125
00:05:56,560 --> 00:05:58,040
Speaker 2: But I guess those aren't really the competitors.

126
00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:01,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, I bought the Carbone things, which probably maybe says

127
00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:05,640
Speaker 4: something about it. But anyway, how do you differentiate your

128
00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:09,560
Speaker 4: product from you know, those names with very very strong

129
00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:11,320
Speaker 4: branding and customer recognition.

130
00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:11,920
Speaker 5: Yeah.

131
00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:15,279
Speaker 1: I think it's an interesting thing because sometimes often people

132
00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:17,480
Speaker 1: start a business saying, what doesn't exist, there's a whole

133
00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:19,560
Speaker 1: in the market, I'm going to fill it, And obviously

134
00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:23,599
Speaker 1: tomato sauce, there are many brands constantly fighting for sale

135
00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:26,799
Speaker 1: prices and shelf space but there wasn't a tomato sauce

136
00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:28,080
Speaker 1: like mine, and there wasn't.

137
00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:30,320
Speaker 5: I find that most tomato sauce is on the market.

138
00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:33,600
Speaker 1: Especially the popular ones Rios Carbone, et cetera, are more

139
00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:36,839
Speaker 1: marin era in style. They are you know, more uniform

140
00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:40,919
Speaker 1: and texture, They are sweeter, they tend to have a

141
00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:43,840
Speaker 1: regular there's just like a specific vibe that they're going for.

142
00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:46,359
Speaker 1: And I think, to me, sort of modeled after the

143
00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:48,880
Speaker 1: like old school progresso, which is what my mom thought

144
00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:51,520
Speaker 1: growing up, and that's what I ate, and I think

145
00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:53,200
Speaker 1: that that was sort of the gold standard, and people

146
00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:55,480
Speaker 1: kind of went down that path. And it's interesting because

147
00:06:55,520 --> 00:06:58,400
Speaker 1: we talk about Carbone as like the top two. They

148
00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:00,680
Speaker 1: are not very old, yeah, and so we in our

149
00:07:00,760 --> 00:07:03,120
Speaker 1: consciousness are like, oh, well that's the top two. Well

150
00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:04,960
Speaker 1: they've only been the top two for as long as

151
00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:07,640
Speaker 1: they've been around, which somebody can fact check, but I

152
00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:10,440
Speaker 1: believe it's only a few years yea. And so it's

153
00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:12,760
Speaker 1: not like this legacy brand that I'm competing with. It's

154
00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:17,239
Speaker 1: just another company with name recognition, a lot of financial backing,

155
00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:20,760
Speaker 1: and strong branding. And I also noticed that all the

156
00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:24,760
Speaker 1: tomato sauces were sort of like chef focused and male

157
00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:27,880
Speaker 1: dominated energy. It was sort of like a chef, a guy,

158
00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:30,480
Speaker 1: a bro, a person's name that was a guy.

159
00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:30,960
Speaker 5: And I don't know.

160
00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:32,760
Speaker 1: I just was sort of like, I want to do

161
00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:34,760
Speaker 1: something totally different, even if it's tomato sauce. I don't

162
00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:38,000
Speaker 1: think they're all created equal, and so with everything I do,

163
00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:41,520
Speaker 1: I genuinely try to ask myself does this already exist?

164
00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:42,720
Speaker 5: And if not, then I want to make it.

165
00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:45,320
Speaker 2: I have some thoughts about chef bro Energy, but I'm

166
00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:47,160
Speaker 2: going to save them for after the podcast. I can't

167
00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:50,840
Speaker 2: wait to save them for after the episode. I want

168
00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:54,000
Speaker 2: to talk about the entire from your conception in your

169
00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:57,600
Speaker 2: mind to the end consumer, the whole supply chain. So

170
00:07:57,640 --> 00:07:59,680
Speaker 2: I want to really break it down and understand it.

171
00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:02,600
Speaker 2: But let's start with, like, how do you scale up

172
00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:05,320
Speaker 2: a recipe because quality control. You have some recipe that

173
00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:07,080
Speaker 2: you make in your kitchen and you really like it,

174
00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:10,120
Speaker 2: et cetera. Then making it in large batches is a

175
00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:12,480
Speaker 2: totally different game, and then you're not there to supervise

176
00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:14,400
Speaker 2: it all the time. Talk to us a little bit

177
00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:17,600
Speaker 2: about that process, how just how that even works such

178
00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:19,920
Speaker 2: that a recipe that you make at home can be

179
00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:22,760
Speaker 2: done by someone else at a different facility in volume,

180
00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:24,080
Speaker 2: and it's still the same recipe.

181
00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:25,720
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think that you have to consider.

182
00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:28,440
Speaker 1: You know, there's a lot of knowledge that goes into it,

183
00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:30,640
Speaker 1: of like your knowledge of cooking and how ingredients.

184
00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:32,400
Speaker 5: You know, they're not a one for one.

185
00:08:32,440 --> 00:08:34,320
Speaker 1: You can't just multiply it by ten and be like

186
00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:36,120
Speaker 1: this is going to be the same thing. Also, the

187
00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:38,320
Speaker 1: equipment is different, how they're doing things are different.

188
00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:39,080
Speaker 5: We have three flavors.

189
00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:41,199
Speaker 1: We have a garlicy tomato which is sort of your classic,

190
00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:45,719
Speaker 1: a spicy fannel which is spicy and has funnel as advertised,

191
00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:48,760
Speaker 1: and then a caramelized shallatte anchovy which is modeled after

192
00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:50,480
Speaker 1: the chalat pasta, which is which.

193
00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:54,439
Speaker 4: Will pretty popular. I think we all at one point probably.

194
00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:57,400
Speaker 1: If I if I have no fans, the chalotte pasta

195
00:08:57,400 --> 00:08:59,080
Speaker 1: will still have a million like it is.

196
00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:00,720
Speaker 5: It is more famous than I am, for sure.

197
00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:03,480
Speaker 1: And that was the trickiest one to nail because the

198
00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:07,680
Speaker 1: caramelizing of the shallets, the addition of anchovy. I ended

199
00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:10,439
Speaker 1: up having to go back three times after we had

200
00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:13,480
Speaker 1: jarred the first batch and adjust the recipe, which I

201
00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:16,239
Speaker 1: didn't have to do with the others. But because shalots,

202
00:09:16,559 --> 00:09:18,800
Speaker 1: when you caramelize it at large scale, they tend to

203
00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:21,920
Speaker 1: get soft and jammy and very sweet, which increases the

204
00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:25,040
Speaker 1: sweetness perception of the final product. We ended up switching

205
00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:27,319
Speaker 1: to a different method of cooking the shalots. I ended

206
00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:30,360
Speaker 1: up reducing the amount entirely cooking them further like it.

207
00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:32,280
Speaker 1: The whole thing had to change as soon as we

208
00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:35,240
Speaker 1: started getting to the batch size. And each co packer

209
00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:37,960
Speaker 1: is different, so I think, you know an issue we

210
00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:40,400
Speaker 1: can we'll get there. But if you talk about scaling,

211
00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:43,000
Speaker 1: it's each co packer is going to handle things differently.

212
00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:44,880
Speaker 1: And right now we're with a pretty small co packer,

213
00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:47,480
Speaker 1: which I like because I can visit them in from

214
00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:51,040
Speaker 1: my apartment. They're in Industry City, Brooklyn, and I go

215
00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:52,480
Speaker 1: there and I can taste the batches.

216
00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:54,320
Speaker 5: I can say, Okay, we.

217
00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:57,640
Speaker 1: Multiplied the chili flake in this recipe, and now it's

218
00:09:57,679 --> 00:09:59,400
Speaker 1: way too spicy, so we're actually going to cut it

219
00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:02,600
Speaker 1: by half, which is it seems to stand a reason

220
00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:05,360
Speaker 1: that would be not nearly as spicy, but because of

221
00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:07,199
Speaker 1: the way the ingredients behave it is you know, so

222
00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:10,000
Speaker 1: stuff like that where you're sort of in the lab

223
00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:12,800
Speaker 1: as it were, tweaking as it goes. And I think

224
00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:16,400
Speaker 1: that the more I explore the CpG world, that is

225
00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:19,400
Speaker 1: the biggest challenge of You can't just send a recipe

226
00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:20,920
Speaker 1: in and hope for the best, like you really have

227
00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:37,960
Speaker 1: to be tweaking and adjusting at scale.

228
00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:43,200
Speaker 4: How big is the tomato sauce making operation right now?

229
00:10:43,559 --> 00:10:45,840
Speaker 4: Like in people, it's.

230
00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:49,800
Speaker 5: Two people, two people, so it's relatively small.

231
00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:52,240
Speaker 1: Yes, they have big, massive kettles, And I think that

232
00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:55,240
Speaker 1: also when you think of like why tomato sauce, Like

233
00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:58,880
Speaker 1: I just I kind of knew that getting there would

234
00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:01,840
Speaker 1: maybe be the path of least resistance in that I'm

235
00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:05,320
Speaker 1: not inventing something from scratch or not, you know, requiring

236
00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:07,439
Speaker 1: equipment that nobody has, Like these are kettles that you

237
00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:09,560
Speaker 1: can make many different things in, and so co packers

238
00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:12,720
Speaker 1: are a bit easier to find. These particular copackers specialize

239
00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:15,280
Speaker 1: in tomato sauce, and most that I've encountered do and

240
00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:19,760
Speaker 1: that's like what they do, and so they are you know,

241
00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:20,480
Speaker 1: well informed.

242
00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:22,880
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, I might ask just a lot of like

243
00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:25,960
Speaker 2: really remedial I love questions about this. So go deep

244
00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:29,160
Speaker 2: the kitchen, the two person kitchen where they're making. That

245
00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:31,760
Speaker 2: is a separate facility than the copacker or is it

246
00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:32,840
Speaker 2: the same entity.

247
00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:33,800
Speaker 5: It's the same entity.

248
00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:38,080
Speaker 1: So we have the place, the warehouse where the tomato

249
00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:40,560
Speaker 1: sauce gets made. They get the jars in, they sterilize

250
00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:42,760
Speaker 1: the jars, they make the sauce, they botch the sauce,

251
00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:43,200
Speaker 1: they put.

252
00:11:43,080 --> 00:11:43,840
Speaker 5: Them in the boxes.

253
00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:47,760
Speaker 1: The boxes then get shipped to a third party logistics warehouse,

254
00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:49,760
Speaker 1: which is actually not far from where the tomato sauce

255
00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:50,079
Speaker 1: is made.

256
00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:51,520
Speaker 5: So we cut down on shipping a bit.

257
00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:55,160
Speaker 1: And that is where the tomato sauce comes from when

258
00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:56,880
Speaker 1: you order it online. Because right now we are we

259
00:11:56,960 --> 00:11:59,560
Speaker 1: do have it in store up in the Upstate grocery store,

260
00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:02,200
Speaker 1: but for a few reasons which we can also get into,

261
00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:04,160
Speaker 1: we are just D two C.

262
00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:05,120
Speaker 3: Got it.

263
00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:09,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, And then again maybe very obvious question when it

264
00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:11,400
Speaker 2: comes to you know, maybe at some point you grow

265
00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:14,160
Speaker 2: and there'll be ten people, et cetera in the food industry.

266
00:12:14,679 --> 00:12:18,320
Speaker 2: Are there chefs whose job is more or less to

267
00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:22,400
Speaker 2: specialize in cooking at scale? Then basically it's like, Okay,

268
00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:25,319
Speaker 2: someone has an idea for a tomato sauce, like you

269
00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:27,640
Speaker 2: you know, you're not you can't be there every day.

270
00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:30,960
Speaker 2: Are there people who like have professionalized the art of

271
00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:33,720
Speaker 2: scaling up a volume.

272
00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:35,720
Speaker 1: I mean, I've never heard of that job specifically, but

273
00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:39,680
Speaker 1: I mean the guy who makes the tomato sauce for us,

274
00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:42,440
Speaker 1: like that is his primary I mean he was a chef,

275
00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:44,800
Speaker 1: you know, did a lot of catering, private chefing, et cetera.

276
00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:49,360
Speaker 1: And then I think to understand how to make things

277
00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:51,640
Speaker 1: at scale, you do have it's a lot of trial

278
00:12:51,679 --> 00:12:52,120
Speaker 1: and error.

279
00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:54,319
Speaker 5: You have to like understand it from a different perspective.

280
00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:57,360
Speaker 1: But even working in restaurants, I experienced this because you

281
00:12:57,400 --> 00:13:00,839
Speaker 1: take recipes built for a home cook actually say baking,

282
00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:02,679
Speaker 1: you're going to make biscuits for a restaurant. You take

283
00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:04,760
Speaker 1: a recipe that you like from somebody's cookbook what I

284
00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:06,800
Speaker 1: don't know, and you're like, Okay, well, now I have

285
00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:08,560
Speaker 1: to make these biscuits for I have to make two

286
00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:11,160
Speaker 1: hundred of them a day. I'm not making sixteen, and

287
00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:13,920
Speaker 1: you cannot just multiply that recipe ever, And.

288
00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:17,880
Speaker 5: So I had a bit of experience in the baking.

289
00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:21,200
Speaker 1: World working at scale, because you're never making sixteen of

290
00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:24,000
Speaker 1: something in a pastry kitchen, you're making two hundred, and

291
00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:28,120
Speaker 1: so you kind of understand. And also conversely, working at

292
00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:30,600
Speaker 1: the Bonapetite Test Kitchen. When I first started working there,

293
00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:33,040
Speaker 1: we were doing a lot more chef driven recipes. And

294
00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:35,680
Speaker 1: when you work in a professional kitchen, you're making sauce,

295
00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:37,840
Speaker 1: you're making sixteen quarts of sauce. You're not making two

296
00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:41,000
Speaker 1: cups of sauce. So sort of reverse engineering that understanding

297
00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:44,280
Speaker 1: that it's the same thing the ingredients EBB and flow,

298
00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:45,439
Speaker 1: even if you're decreasing.

299
00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:48,680
Speaker 5: So it's just kind of having that knowledge ahead of time.

300
00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:51,280
Speaker 1: But I think that's how those people find themselves as

301
00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:53,640
Speaker 1: a co packer, and as we look into other products

302
00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:55,920
Speaker 1: to make, it's like, okay, well, these guys specialize in

303
00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:58,560
Speaker 1: baked goods, these guys specialize in granola. These guys you

304
00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:01,720
Speaker 1: know and there that's what they do, so they know.

305
00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:05,360
Speaker 4: How did you go about finding suppliers? Because you know,

306
00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:09,000
Speaker 4: I imagine you have some connections with your grocery store to

307
00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:12,320
Speaker 4: you know, farmers maybe, but if you're doing it at

308
00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:14,880
Speaker 4: scale or a larger scale than previously, how do you

309
00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:17,680
Speaker 4: actually find someone who's going to provide you with a

310
00:14:17,679 --> 00:14:20,960
Speaker 4: steady supply of tomatoes or a steady supply of schallllettes

311
00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:21,720
Speaker 4: and Ancho beats.

312
00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:25,360
Speaker 1: I guess yeah, we use canned tomatoes in the summer.

313
00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:30,000
Speaker 1: We will do limit edition quantities of things like you know,

314
00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:33,800
Speaker 1: brewce tomatoes, sung gold tomatoes, like more in season fresh stuff.

315
00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:36,160
Speaker 1: But because tomatoes are so seasonal, and I also believe

316
00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:38,080
Speaker 1: the best tomato SAUCEA does come from can tomatoes.

317
00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:41,040
Speaker 5: That part isn't an issue, but it really is.

318
00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:44,560
Speaker 1: I had worked with this one Isabelle, who had more

319
00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:47,480
Speaker 1: experience in CpG, and we sort of figured it out

320
00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:51,120
Speaker 1: together with a chief of staff Narni, and it was

321
00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:53,760
Speaker 1: kind of the three of us looking at numbers and saying,

322
00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:56,840
Speaker 1: like who's located where, what is the shipping going to cost,

323
00:14:57,280 --> 00:14:59,760
Speaker 1: what tomatoes are they using, what tomatoes can they get?

324
00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:03,920
Speaker 1: What is their capacity? Like how quickly can we grow here?

325
00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:07,920
Speaker 1: And so all of those things come into factor because honestly,

326
00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:09,720
Speaker 1: the type of chalots you're using at that scale, it

327
00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:12,440
Speaker 1: doesn't really matter. I think it would be my dream

328
00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:15,360
Speaker 1: to always use the highest quality ingredients. I'd love to

329
00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:18,760
Speaker 1: use like old ugly shalots that nobody wants and the

330
00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:22,800
Speaker 1: bad tomatoes and like make something beautiful from waste. And

331
00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:26,560
Speaker 1: that's my aspiration, and that business model let down a

332
00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:32,360
Speaker 1: very very expensive path and I think is achievable at massive.

333
00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:33,280
Speaker 5: Scale, but we're just not there yet.

334
00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:34,520
Speaker 4: Wait say more about that.

335
00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:41,400
Speaker 1: Basically, that is sort of the issue with CpG in general.

336
00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:45,640
Speaker 1: And if you want to make a small mom and

337
00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:49,840
Speaker 1: pop like locally sourced, like beautifully made, responsibly, pay your

338
00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:53,280
Speaker 1: workers excellent wages, and it's going to be like a

339
00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:55,360
Speaker 1: thirty eight dollars jar of tomato sauce, and it's going

340
00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:58,000
Speaker 1: to be a very limited market of people that are

341
00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:00,560
Speaker 1: willing to pay for that. And you know, look at

342
00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:03,040
Speaker 1: my local grocery store and I the first thing I

343
00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:04,320
Speaker 1: do is I go to the tomato sauce aisle.

344
00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:06,280
Speaker 5: I'm just like got to know what's going on over there.

345
00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:10,240
Speaker 1: But you see REOs and Carbone on the same eye

346
00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:14,480
Speaker 1: level and additional merchandising behind you, and they are both

347
00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:15,760
Speaker 1: on sale for eight ninety nine.

348
00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:17,560
Speaker 5: And that's a thirty two ounce jar.

349
00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:22,840
Speaker 1: Our jars are sixteen ounces, and you know, twelve ninety

350
00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:24,120
Speaker 1: nine or twelve dollars retail.

351
00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:27,680
Speaker 4: Joe, I'm going to betray my elder millennial status. But

352
00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:31,160
Speaker 4: I'm thinking of that Friend's episode where Monico starts making

353
00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:34,000
Speaker 4: jam and selling it, and then she realizes that, like,

354
00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:36,760
Speaker 4: in order to break even, it has to be seventeen

355
00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:38,680
Speaker 4: dollars per jar, which was a lot back then.

356
00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:43,120
Speaker 1: But guess who else made jam and me, Yeah, tell

357
00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:46,360
Speaker 1: us about I mean that was a million years ago

358
00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:47,840
Speaker 1: when I first moved to New York and I was

359
00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:50,440
Speaker 1: working at Milk Bar at the time and used their

360
00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:53,040
Speaker 1: commissary kitchen to sort of decide I was going to

361
00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:53,880
Speaker 1: make jam and sell.

362
00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:55,960
Speaker 5: It at the Williamsburg Smorgesberg.

363
00:16:56,160 --> 00:17:01,080
Speaker 1: And when it first launched and saying oh and you know,

364
00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:04,560
Speaker 1: handwriting each label like getting beautiful wek jars which cost

365
00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:07,600
Speaker 1: four dollars a piece, Like the economics were so poor,

366
00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:10,320
Speaker 1: I didn't care. I wanted to do it anyway, and

367
00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:12,520
Speaker 1: as long as we could make more money to buy

368
00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:14,920
Speaker 1: more jars and then make more jam.

369
00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:16,240
Speaker 5: Obviously that was not sustainable.

370
00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:17,840
Speaker 1: Didn't last for very long, maybe a year and a half,

371
00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:22,160
Speaker 1: but same concept, where okay, in order to get this

372
00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:25,120
Speaker 1: actually done and to actually turn a profit, you're like, okay, well,

373
00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:27,560
Speaker 1: that's why people go for the juggular immediately and seek

374
00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:29,200
Speaker 1: out you know, investment, and say we need to be

375
00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:30,080
Speaker 1: in targeted to launch.

376
00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:32,560
Speaker 2: So we've sort of talked a little bit about, you know,

377
00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:35,520
Speaker 2: just scaling up the recipelet's little about business skill.

378
00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:35,920
Speaker 1: Yeah.

379
00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:39,240
Speaker 2: One of my favorite books I've read is the autobiography

380
00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:42,800
Speaker 2: of the Nike founder Phil Nice Shoedog Shoe Doog, and

381
00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:45,400
Speaker 2: he talks a lot about you know, they started small

382
00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:48,480
Speaker 2: with sneakers, and then there was you know, this sort

383
00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:50,639
Speaker 2: of jump where it's like he had the opportunity to

384
00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:53,280
Speaker 2: get a lot bigger banks didn't really want to give

385
00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:56,320
Speaker 2: him loans because it seemed dicey. It wasn't like a

386
00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:59,600
Speaker 2: VC style business, but he clearly needed capital to sort

387
00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:02,080
Speaker 2: of take it to the next level of like bigger factories,

388
00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:04,479
Speaker 2: et cetera. Talk to us a little bit about like

389
00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:08,879
Speaker 2: financial scaling and the risks that involve of like, Okay,

390
00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:10,320
Speaker 2: one day, you don't want it to just be two

391
00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:12,280
Speaker 2: people in a kitchen. You out to be twenty people

392
00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:15,119
Speaker 2: or two hundred people in the kitchen. Well, that requires

393
00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:18,200
Speaker 2: a lot of upfront costs and new warehouses. Maybe talk

394
00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:20,159
Speaker 2: to us about how you're thinking about that or what

395
00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:22,920
Speaker 2: you've seen on the landscape in terms of your options.

396
00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:26,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it seems like the what you're fed

397
00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:28,439
Speaker 1: in terms of like the media coverage of brands and

398
00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:30,720
Speaker 1: you're like, oh, this brand has three million dollars out

399
00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:32,600
Speaker 1: of the gate and this brand has six men, And

400
00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:34,040
Speaker 1: that doesn't mean that brand's going to succeed.

401
00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:35,800
Speaker 5: That doesn't mean that brand is going.

402
00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:37,760
Speaker 2: In the hole because they have to pay that back, yes,

403
00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:40,440
Speaker 2: multiple interests before the founder sees a penny.

404
00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:41,000
Speaker 5: Of it, exactly.

405
00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:42,840
Speaker 1: And it also means that there's a lot of pressure

406
00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:47,200
Speaker 1: to increase SKUs and marketing and it's to me a

407
00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:50,919
Speaker 1: very overwhelming landscape that is not rooted in authenticity or

408
00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:53,880
Speaker 1: something being good, and that to me, is.

409
00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:55,840
Speaker 5: Always going to be the most important thing that I do.

410
00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:57,680
Speaker 1: I also want to do it intelligently and make sure

411
00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:02,040
Speaker 1: that it's not like a financial crazy firestorm. But I

412
00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:05,320
Speaker 1: think that right now, literally today, after this, I'm going

413
00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:07,399
Speaker 1: to a few meetings, But I am right in the

414
00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:10,080
Speaker 1: thick of it of figuring out that the answer to

415
00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:12,480
Speaker 1: that question of like who do I hire, how do

416
00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:15,480
Speaker 1: I hire them, at what level? Who's going to actually

417
00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:19,440
Speaker 1: help me who? Basically my desire is to hire somebody,

418
00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:22,239
Speaker 1: two people, three people who are excellent at what they do.

419
00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:24,879
Speaker 1: I am not a business person. I am a tomato

420
00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:26,640
Speaker 1: sauce person. I make tomato sauce, and I make really

421
00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:30,160
Speaker 1: good tomato sauce. I don't know how to do these

422
00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:32,840
Speaker 1: other things. And what I do know is that I'm

423
00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:35,600
Speaker 1: not trying to scale up at such an intense rate

424
00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:39,119
Speaker 1: that it sacrifices the quality or the integrity or puts

425
00:19:39,119 --> 00:19:42,359
Speaker 1: me in a position to grow the business faster than

426
00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:44,639
Speaker 1: I want to. And you know, I think it's interesting

427
00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:47,359
Speaker 1: because a lot of times people start businesses, especially in

428
00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:50,560
Speaker 1: the food CpG world, where the immediate thought is before

429
00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:51,360
Speaker 1: they've even made.

430
00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:53,359
Speaker 5: The product, how do I sell it? Like, how do

431
00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:54,280
Speaker 5: I what's my exit?

432
00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:57,080
Speaker 1: Okay, in six years we could make you know, it's

433
00:19:57,119 --> 00:19:59,720
Speaker 1: like what happened to just making a great product that

434
00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:02,119
Speaker 1: people are really into? And I think I have the

435
00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:05,080
Speaker 1: luxury of having forty two other jobs and so you know,

436
00:20:05,119 --> 00:20:08,159
Speaker 1: I'm a writer, I do video, I make cookbooks. And

437
00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:13,360
Speaker 1: I think that knowing that this isn't my primary, you know,

438
00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:15,960
Speaker 1: the one thing that I'm betting on, but I do

439
00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:19,240
Speaker 1: think that there's a sort of credibility that's been lost

440
00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:22,200
Speaker 1: in developing products, and I think that people are going

441
00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:24,760
Speaker 1: to start to want that, and I think that they're

442
00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:25,879
Speaker 1: going to be like, well, why would I buy this

443
00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:28,040
Speaker 1: person's tomato? So I was like, because I'm seeing it everywhere,

444
00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:31,000
Speaker 1: or this one because I trust it that it comes

445
00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:32,000
Speaker 1: from a good place.

446
00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:35,200
Speaker 4: Well, kind of lenders or investors do you actually talk

447
00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:37,399
Speaker 4: to for the sort of thing? Is it like VC?

448
00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:40,240
Speaker 5: I don't yet, but that would ostensibly be it.

449
00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:43,400
Speaker 1: I think that for me personally, I've self funded every

450
00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:46,119
Speaker 1: project I've ever done, and I've kind of taken this

451
00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:50,280
Speaker 1: to its maximum in that I'm not.

452
00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:53,480
Speaker 5: That in the red and it will I will be

453
00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:55,440
Speaker 5: whole probably by the end of the year, which is great.

454
00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:58,400
Speaker 1: It's more that I want to be sure if I'm

455
00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:00,880
Speaker 1: going to ask for money, it's I want to ask

456
00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:04,600
Speaker 1: for money from people that understand me and are not

457
00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:07,199
Speaker 1: expecting me to be someone else or or model my

458
00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:10,639
Speaker 1: business after those other ones that they see as being successful.

459
00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:12,639
Speaker 1: And I say that today, Ask me next year, and

460
00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:14,880
Speaker 1: I might be in a different position. But I think

461
00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:19,000
Speaker 1: it's sort of you know, a friends and family round style,

462
00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:23,120
Speaker 1: or one main investor who sort of sees me, sees

463
00:21:23,119 --> 00:21:24,440
Speaker 1: the goal and is like, I want to be the

464
00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:26,400
Speaker 1: lead and I want to be sort of the primary.

465
00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:29,320
Speaker 4: Do you have to bring like actual jars of the

466
00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:31,800
Speaker 4: sauce when you meet with investors. I know you haven't

467
00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:33,439
Speaker 4: done it yet, but I'm really curious if you have

468
00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:36,200
Speaker 4: a food company, is that a requirement or are people

469
00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:38,600
Speaker 4: just looking at the numbers and the branding and the

470
00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:39,480
Speaker 4: distribution network.

471
00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:40,560
Speaker 5: I don't think it could hurt.

472
00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:42,880
Speaker 1: I think that if you are a lesser known quantity,

473
00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:46,040
Speaker 1: that's probably a must. I would I mean, I'd want

474
00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:48,119
Speaker 1: you to know what I'm selling you and why you

475
00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:48,760
Speaker 1: should invest in it.

476
00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:49,960
Speaker 5: It's giving shark tank.

477
00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:53,399
Speaker 1: But I think for me, I've been very fortunate that

478
00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:55,600
Speaker 1: I've already sort of been approached by people that are like,

479
00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:57,720
Speaker 1: I like what you do, I like everything that you do.

480
00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:00,400
Speaker 1: Everything you do works, and like, I have no reason

481
00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:02,439
Speaker 1: to believe this would be any different, even though I

482
00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:04,639
Speaker 1: do know, given the saturation of the market and how

483
00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:07,400
Speaker 1: crowded it is, it is sort of, oh, why would

484
00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:11,080
Speaker 1: you enter into what was effectively the most crowded, you know, market?

485
00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:14,840
Speaker 1: But again, I see my contribution as being unique.

486
00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:18,720
Speaker 2: This might be sort of a sensitive question. You know,

487
00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:21,320
Speaker 2: there is a I think you have cult status within

488
00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:24,879
Speaker 2: a certain among some people. We seem to be in

489
00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:28,480
Speaker 2: an age where people with a certain level of cult status.

490
00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:31,080
Speaker 2: They have these fans who like really just like they

491
00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:33,880
Speaker 2: want to buy something from you. They're excited to give

492
00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:36,800
Speaker 2: that the opportunity to do business with you. Yes, Taylor

493
00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:41,520
Speaker 2: Swift's fans want her to make five different color vinyl

494
00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:44,879
Speaker 2: versions of each album because they're really excited about it.

495
00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:45,760
Speaker 4: Yeah.

496
00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:48,840
Speaker 2: And Donald Trump's fans really like want him to like,

497
00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:51,320
Speaker 2: you know, make a vodka brand and whatever because they're

498
00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:54,960
Speaker 2: excited about God buying Trump vodka. Do you feel that, like,

499
00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:57,280
Speaker 2: do you feel that you have like a base that

500
00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:01,280
Speaker 2: is enthusiastic about the prospect of actually supporting you and

501
00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:04,000
Speaker 2: like being part of your you know, growing your world.

502
00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:06,960
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think that I am very fortunate to have

503
00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:08,600
Speaker 1: been in this industry for as long as I have,

504
00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:12,280
Speaker 1: and I think that with that comes a reputation and

505
00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:15,240
Speaker 1: trust and you cannot buy that trust, and you cannot

506
00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:17,760
Speaker 1: force it to happen over a short period of time.

507
00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:22,680
Speaker 1: And I think that it is familiarity. But above all,

508
00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:24,480
Speaker 1: people are like, I know this works, or I know

509
00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:28,000
Speaker 1: when she recommends something, it is good. And so it

510
00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:29,520
Speaker 1: stands to reason if I'm going to make if I'm

511
00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:32,080
Speaker 1: going to put my name behind something and like put

512
00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:34,160
Speaker 1: my own money behind starting a company like this isn't

513
00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:36,160
Speaker 1: a money grab, you know, It's not the most lucrative

514
00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:39,320
Speaker 1: thing I do. It's a definite loss leader, but it's

515
00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:41,880
Speaker 1: sort of for now anyway. But I think that there

516
00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:45,640
Speaker 1: is a hopefully I would imagine people would think if

517
00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:46,920
Speaker 1: she's going to do this, I know it's going to

518
00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:48,560
Speaker 1: be good. And I get a lot of feedback on

519
00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:51,080
Speaker 1: the sauce, people saying I've never bought sauce in my life,

520
00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:53,960
Speaker 1: but I am curious. Or it's people that were like

521
00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:57,240
Speaker 1: me ten years ago, cooking from dining in, cooking from

522
00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:00,959
Speaker 1: you know, nothing fancy well eight years ago, but you know,

523
00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:03,520
Speaker 1: and thought to themselves, well, I'll never make I'll never

524
00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:05,399
Speaker 1: buy tomato sauce because I make my own. And now

525
00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:07,879
Speaker 1: their lives have changed and their perspectives are different, and

526
00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:09,840
Speaker 1: they're like, you know what, I might buy tomato sauce.

527
00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:13,720
Speaker 4: How are you thinking about distribution? Because, as Joe mentioned

528
00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:16,479
Speaker 4: in the intro, one, thing we've learned from conversations with

529
00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:20,240
Speaker 4: different food and drinks and snack companies is like you

530
00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:22,640
Speaker 4: kind of live and die by the shelf space.

531
00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:24,520
Speaker 5: That you get a high level baby.

532
00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:27,399
Speaker 4: Okay, and then also like which comes first? Is it

533
00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:31,920
Speaker 4: a distribution agreement or the actual scaling of the operation.

534
00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:34,080
Speaker 5: This is exactly where I'm at right now.

535
00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:36,320
Speaker 1: I'm like in the thick of these conversations of trying

536
00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:39,240
Speaker 1: to figure that out, because do I find a new

537
00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:42,879
Speaker 1: copacker that can meet the needs of potentially being in

538
00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:46,439
Speaker 1: Whole Foods, Well, then without a Whole Foods contract, I'm

539
00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:50,400
Speaker 1: sitting on potentially hundreds of thousands of dollars of product,

540
00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:52,000
Speaker 1: and where does that product go? Then I'm paying for

541
00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:54,080
Speaker 1: storage for that product, So how do you move that

542
00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:57,160
Speaker 1: without having that deal in place? You also, I would

543
00:24:57,160 --> 00:24:59,719
Speaker 1: imagine Whole Foods is not going to give you something

544
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:02,520
Speaker 1: less they know for certain that you can produce it,

545
00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:05,280
Speaker 1: and I'm assuming they want some proof of concept. But

546
00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:07,800
Speaker 1: right now I'm I'm it's very chicken or the Egg,

547
00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:10,800
Speaker 1: and I'm sort of like, Okay, what has to happen first?

548
00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:12,760
Speaker 5: Is it the person who's going to get me that

549
00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:14,000
Speaker 5: relationship with Whole Foods?

550
00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:17,600
Speaker 1: Is it the Copacker that I know can fulfill and

551
00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:21,399
Speaker 1: execute at the level that I want? And you know,

552
00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:24,560
Speaker 1: these questions are being asked and answered very quickly, and

553
00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:26,600
Speaker 1: you know, next, if we had done this meeting next week,

554
00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:28,119
Speaker 1: I probably would have a better answer for you.

555
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:30,680
Speaker 3: Can come back. Yeah, I just do we just do

556
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:31,200
Speaker 3: a quick fall.

557
00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:31,840
Speaker 5: Well, it's so funny.

558
00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:33,800
Speaker 1: I'm sure anyone listening to this that does know a

559
00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:36,080
Speaker 1: lot about CpG is like this woman has no talking

560
00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:38,800
Speaker 1: about But I believe that's part of my charm and

561
00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:40,800
Speaker 1: that I kind of jump into everything that I do,

562
00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:44,800
Speaker 1: like really curious and excited. And I actually think that

563
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:47,840
Speaker 1: there's a lot of benefit to not knowing, because I

564
00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:50,120
Speaker 1: think getting hung up on how things are done and

565
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:53,160
Speaker 1: what is the norm kind of limits you are you.

566
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:57,680
Speaker 2: Just like surrounded right now by like food industry execs

567
00:25:57,680 --> 00:25:59,680
Speaker 2: that are promising they can take your business to the

568
00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:02,160
Speaker 2: next level. Maybe they did a stint that will Whole

569
00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:04,119
Speaker 2: Foods or something like that, and like hire me, we can.

570
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:06,520
Speaker 1: Do There's a few people, there's a few, there's yes,

571
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:09,640
Speaker 1: the inbox is very busy right now, and I will

572
00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:14,080
Speaker 1: say primarily women, which is really encouraging. And yeah, I

573
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:15,959
Speaker 1: think there's always somebody that's like, I can help you,

574
00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:17,920
Speaker 1: and then some people that are like I want skin

575
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:19,480
Speaker 1: in the game. Some people are like I want to

576
00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:21,199
Speaker 1: help you find the money so that I can have

577
00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:21,840
Speaker 1: skin in the game.

578
00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:25,280
Speaker 5: In the future. And I think that these.

579
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:29,240
Speaker 1: Companies become so hot and then often plateau or crash

580
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:31,760
Speaker 1: or people don't care anymore. Protein's no longer a thing.

581
00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:34,560
Speaker 1: Nobody wants to drink this type of thing. But to me,

582
00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:37,639
Speaker 1: I'm such a legacy brand person and I believe so

583
00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:42,160
Speaker 1: firmly in well made products that are built to last,

584
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:44,280
Speaker 1: that never go out of style, and to me, this

585
00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:48,120
Speaker 1: is that. And I'd rather be successful over a really

586
00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:50,560
Speaker 1: long term than like a flash in the pan, or

587
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:52,760
Speaker 1: like hot right now and then next year nobody cares,

588
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:53,639
Speaker 1: and then I'm.

589
00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:57,639
Speaker 4: Yeah, Tomato sauce is definitely Lindy, I think, do.

590
00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:00,560
Speaker 5: You know Lindy, I don't know. Oh, I've heard it

591
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:01,280
Speaker 5: now four times.

592
00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:03,000
Speaker 4: No, it's sort of a nut joke.

593
00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:06,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, it just means. It means it's lasted a long time,

594
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:08,480
Speaker 2: and therefore one can infer that it will last a

595
00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:08,840
Speaker 2: long time.

596
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:11,359
Speaker 1: Okay, I love it. I'm going to adopt that word

597
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:12,200
Speaker 1: in my pitches.

598
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:14,840
Speaker 4: It's a good word to use. What's been the most

599
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:18,640
Speaker 4: challenging aspect of building this business because you know, you're

600
00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:21,240
Speaker 4: talking about a bunch of different things all at once.

601
00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:26,400
Speaker 4: There's the financing, there's distribution, there's logistics, there's actually making

602
00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:28,600
Speaker 4: the product, branding all of that.

603
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:31,720
Speaker 1: I will say I sort of did everything that was

604
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:35,919
Speaker 1: easiest first, which was developing the recipe, figuring out the label,

605
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:38,800
Speaker 1: like the creative fun stuff that I feel qualified to

606
00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:43,439
Speaker 1: weigh in on and execute. And now we're at the

607
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:45,160
Speaker 1: hard part where it's like, Okay, we've made the sauce,

608
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:47,000
Speaker 1: we've sold it, people love it.

609
00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:47,719
Speaker 5: Okay.

610
00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:49,720
Speaker 1: That feels like the hard part for a lot of people.

611
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:52,679
Speaker 1: For me, that was the easy part. And now, you know,

612
00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:54,560
Speaker 1: I was saying to someone the other day, like, what

613
00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:57,520
Speaker 1: I'm really craving as an adult in the room, and

614
00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:00,159
Speaker 1: I need a boss in this venture, you know what

615
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:03,439
Speaker 1: I mean? Like, I'm so okay, I have the sauce.

616
00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:06,040
Speaker 1: It's it looks great, it tastes great, people want it.

617
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:07,520
Speaker 5: How do what now?

618
00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:09,919
Speaker 1: And I need somebody who knows what they're doing to

619
00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:13,120
Speaker 1: come into the room and say, here's the order of operations,

620
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:15,760
Speaker 1: here's how much that's going to cost, here's who's going

621
00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:18,320
Speaker 1: to do that. Like, when you're starting a business like this,

622
00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:21,040
Speaker 1: there's nobody to tell you, and so you do sort

623
00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:22,879
Speaker 1: of feel a little vulnerable to people that are like

624
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:25,320
Speaker 1: I can help you, And so it becomes sort of

625
00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:28,639
Speaker 1: this personality vetting and and who's who do we vibe with?

626
00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:30,520
Speaker 1: Who do you think understands you that it doesn't just

627
00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:35,320
Speaker 1: see dollar signs, And it's again built on trust and

628
00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:37,119
Speaker 1: like who's going to really be in this with you

629
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:40,240
Speaker 1: to best advise what's best for you the business owner

630
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:43,520
Speaker 1: and also the product and not just sort of treat

631
00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:46,000
Speaker 1: you like a mouthpiece for a thing that can make

632
00:28:46,000 --> 00:29:00,680
Speaker 1: the money.

633
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:05,840
Speaker 2: You mentioned like you have the luxury of you're not

634
00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:08,360
Speaker 2: betting your life on this brand, you have your thriving

635
00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 2: media empire, et cetera, and see you're in the position

636
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:14,720
Speaker 2: to self fund and so forth. It occurs to me like,

637
00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:19,720
Speaker 2: you know, again, journalism is in such a difficult time,

638
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:22,400
Speaker 2: but like you know, thinking back ten years ago, like

639
00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:25,800
Speaker 2: all these consumer brands trying to build out a media

640
00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:28,400
Speaker 2: side and you're like, oh, we're gonna hire the editor

641
00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:30,640
Speaker 2: in chief of Gillette, you know, because we want to

642
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:33,959
Speaker 2: like build a whole series of blogs that are implicitly

643
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:37,239
Speaker 2: about razors and stuff like that. People this is like right,

644
00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:38,720
Speaker 2: because they think this is going to be the best

645
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:41,560
Speaker 2: marketing is we'll just buy the media brand itself. It

646
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:44,160
Speaker 2: must be really nice to not like you already have

647
00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:49,200
Speaker 2: that part solved implicitly. It's so much easier to start

648
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:52,560
Speaker 2: with this media thing that everybody loves, that lots of

649
00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:56,000
Speaker 2: people love, and then like add on to these various

650
00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:57,640
Speaker 2: products that can be sold on top of that.

651
00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:00,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I would obviously never call myself celebrity, but

652
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:02,520
Speaker 1: I think that's the appeal to the celebrity brand and

653
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:05,280
Speaker 1: why that is so appealing to people When they're like,

654
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:07,680
Speaker 1: you know, a pop star that launches a makeup brand

655
00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:10,600
Speaker 1: and an actor who launches lingerie, it's like it's a

656
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:14,800
Speaker 1: built in excitement, it's built in buy it, you know.

657
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:17,640
Speaker 1: And so I think for me again, I take that

658
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:21,960
Speaker 1: very seriously, that responsibility very seriously, but it is great

659
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:24,720
Speaker 1: to know that most of it seems like what the

660
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:28,040
Speaker 1: money goes towards in addition to hiring, is marketing, because

661
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:30,120
Speaker 1: if you're just like a person that's like no one

662
00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:32,200
Speaker 1: knows who you are, you don't have any food background,

663
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:35,520
Speaker 1: but you're like, I'm going to start a insert blank here,

664
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:37,840
Speaker 1: you know company that is food.

665
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:39,600
Speaker 5: Well, yeah, if you.

666
00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:41,000
Speaker 1: Come from the tech world, if you come from the

667
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:43,400
Speaker 1: business world, you're already a leg up on me in

668
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:45,040
Speaker 1: a lot of ways, but I'm a leg up on

669
00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:48,000
Speaker 1: you in a lot of ways, but one money unfortunately,

670
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:49,960
Speaker 1: Trump's all. So I feel like always sort of at

671
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:53,760
Speaker 1: a disadvantage without that as my thing in the back pocket,

672
00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:57,440
Speaker 1: because a lot of brands that begin they begin from

673
00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:01,000
Speaker 1: a guy in a best and you know, and I

674
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:02,120
Speaker 1: don't have that.

675
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:02,880
Speaker 5: Have you seen?

676
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:05,200
Speaker 2: Like I think there are some memes about it or

677
00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:08,000
Speaker 2: like jokes where it's like it'll parody some guys, you know,

678
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:11,000
Speaker 2: working at Mackenzie and I realized I had to quit

679
00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:13,240
Speaker 2: my job and dedicate my life to making the ultimate

680
00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:13,960
Speaker 2: tortilla chip.

681
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 3: Have you seen it? There's like all these jacks and you.

682
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:18,800
Speaker 2: See these on the labels, like we were working nine

683
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:20,720
Speaker 2: to five jobs in New York City and then we're like,

684
00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:23,560
Speaker 2: why can't we just make sundry tomatoes.

685
00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:25,560
Speaker 5: Exactly, like why isn't there a cream cheese for me?

686
00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:28,520
Speaker 1: And you're like, yeah, I mean if you have a dream,

687
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:31,880
Speaker 1: you know, And I think that that is very inspiring

688
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:33,960
Speaker 1: when you can have a job that makes you so

689
00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:36,000
Speaker 1: much money and then you're like, wait, this is solace

690
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:38,480
Speaker 1: and actually I just want to like make granola.

691
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:39,440
Speaker 5: Sure, that's great.

692
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:42,000
Speaker 1: I think that for me, I've always sort of been

693
00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:43,959
Speaker 1: the inverse where I've dedicated my life to cooking and

694
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:47,440
Speaker 1: food and like the whole act of it, and knowing

695
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:49,440
Speaker 1: that those things like no one gets into the restaurant

696
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:51,800
Speaker 1: business to make money. I started working in restaurants when

697
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:54,480
Speaker 1: I was nineteen, making seven fifty an hour, and I

698
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:57,240
Speaker 1: never once thought how will I make more money? I

699
00:31:57,280 --> 00:31:58,640
Speaker 1: just thought, Wow, this is great. I'm so happy. I

700
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:02,480
Speaker 1: love cooking, and so to end up here and be like, Okay,

701
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:04,600
Speaker 1: I can like put a small amount towards this, but

702
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:06,480
Speaker 1: we've sort of reached the end of that road of

703
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:07,960
Speaker 1: the money that I was willing to bet on it,

704
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:10,520
Speaker 1: and it was sort of like I thought, pretty low stakes.

705
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 5: I was like, I.

706
00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:12,480
Speaker 1: Believe in the product. I know it's going to sell.

707
00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:14,640
Speaker 1: And it did and it was great. And so now

708
00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:17,720
Speaker 1: it's time to consider what's next. And how do you

709
00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:23,080
Speaker 1: consider what is a middle class small business? Because it

710
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:27,080
Speaker 1: stands it feels like it's only extreme farmer's market, mom

711
00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:29,520
Speaker 1: and pop, but nobody knows who you are except if

712
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:33,320
Speaker 1: you live in the town or five million dollars debut

713
00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:33,840
Speaker 1: at Target.

714
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:37,400
Speaker 4: I have a slightly random question, but since we were

715
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:41,160
Speaker 4: talking food media. I think this has actually come up

716
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:44,600
Speaker 4: on the podcast before, but like a long long time ago,

717
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:48,760
Speaker 4: why do I have to read three thousand words of

718
00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:53,239
Speaker 4: people's life story or like explaining what an onion is

719
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:55,600
Speaker 4: before I get to the recipe online?

720
00:32:56,560 --> 00:33:01,320
Speaker 1: Well, originally, the reason that I think that where those

721
00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:05,480
Speaker 1: complaints originated from are is blog culture, which predates sort

722
00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:09,120
Speaker 1: of recipe database like botamtat New York Times Cooking, et cetera.

723
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:13,240
Speaker 1: Because basically, in order for those bloggers to get ad revenue,

724
00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:15,600
Speaker 1: the person had to scroll a certain amount. They couldn't

725
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:17,560
Speaker 1: just go to the page and click because they wouldn't

726
00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:19,959
Speaker 1: see the ad, so the ad revenue couldn't support them.

727
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:22,840
Speaker 5: That is I think like nineties sort of reasoning.

728
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:26,560
Speaker 1: For me, as a person who writes those things, it's

729
00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:30,080
Speaker 1: because I think people care or it makes you a

730
00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:34,200
Speaker 1: better cook and I and it provides context and riches to.

731
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:35,560
Speaker 5: The story of the recipe.

732
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:41,120
Speaker 1: That also said, I often separate the text from the recipe,

733
00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:43,560
Speaker 1: so I write in such a way that often, like

734
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:47,240
Speaker 1: for my newsletter, for example, there's many many words about something.

735
00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:51,160
Speaker 1: It could be a sweater or my baby or tomato sauce,

736
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:54,200
Speaker 1: and then you jump to the recipe, which has like

737
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 1: maybe six sentences about like why you need to do

738
00:33:57,960 --> 00:33:59,560
Speaker 1: what I'm asking you to do so you don't skip

739
00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:01,640
Speaker 1: it and mess up the recipe, and then the recipe,

740
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:04,200
Speaker 1: but you can always jump to it. So that also said,

741
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:07,640
Speaker 1: I always felt very defensive of that complaint because I'm

742
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:10,240
Speaker 1: a writer and I part of what I do is writing,

743
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:12,680
Speaker 1: and I also think that's a huge part of my

744
00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:15,480
Speaker 1: success because people are like emotionally invested in what I'm

745
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:19,480
Speaker 1: asking you to do and also selling you something. I'm like, Okay,

746
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:21,600
Speaker 1: you might not want to make lentil soup, but I'm

747
00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:23,480
Speaker 1: going to write something that is so compelling that you're

748
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:25,120
Speaker 1: going to be like, oh my god, I have to

749
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:27,520
Speaker 1: make this lentil soup. And that is part of my

750
00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:32,359
Speaker 1: job and so I do respect that though, and interestingly enough,

751
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:34,080
Speaker 1: it's one of my favorite things to do when I'm

752
00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:36,600
Speaker 1: writing actual cookbooks. Because you're limited to the page versus

753
00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:39,600
Speaker 1: the internet, you could write forever. Most people don't have

754
00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:42,440
Speaker 1: good editors or editors at all. I don't know an editor,

755
00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:45,800
Speaker 1: and one thing that I learned while working in magazines

756
00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:47,600
Speaker 1: is you have to ask yourself who cares? And so

757
00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:50,560
Speaker 1: if I find myself blabbing on about something. I think

758
00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:52,839
Speaker 1: about that person being like, why do I care about this?

759
00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:55,919
Speaker 1: And I have to justify it, And oftentimes I edit

760
00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:57,600
Speaker 1: stuff out all the time where I'm like, that's boring

761
00:34:57,640 --> 00:34:59,359
Speaker 1: or stupid, or only I think that's funny, or that's

762
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:02,120
Speaker 1: too niche, or it doesn't need to be here. I'm

763
00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:04,560
Speaker 1: very cognizant of the fact that if something is too long,

764
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:06,880
Speaker 1: people's eyes glaze over, they don't care, they are going

765
00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:09,600
Speaker 1: to lose interest. So you really fight for every word.

766
00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:12,279
Speaker 1: That's especially true in a cookbook because you have to

767
00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:15,400
Speaker 1: keep it to a certain length otherwise it doesn't get printed.

768
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:17,719
Speaker 1: And you know, there's a lot that goes into that

769
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:20,000
Speaker 1: for me anyway, and I think each person that writes

770
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:22,640
Speaker 1: recipes or whatever in the food world will have a

771
00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:23,280
Speaker 1: different answer.

772
00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:24,720
Speaker 5: That's mine, Joe.

773
00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 4: Technology has actually solved this problem for me because there's

774
00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:31,400
Speaker 4: there's a really great app called Paprika, and you just

775
00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:33,920
Speaker 4: like paste in the url of a recipe.

776
00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:37,799
Speaker 1: Kill but you you know that that is like the

777
00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:41,000
Speaker 1: utility user and like that. I'd rather you do that

778
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:43,200
Speaker 1: than like just go on AI to like be like

779
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:45,440
Speaker 1: what you know, recipe with that I.

780
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:49,000
Speaker 4: Can't even think about AI just right now?

781
00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:49,680
Speaker 5: Damn it?

782
00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:50,560
Speaker 3: Really?

783
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:51,920
Speaker 5: How often do you cook?

784
00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:54,480
Speaker 4: I cook like all the time on the weekends. And

785
00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:55,920
Speaker 4: I don't cook in New York because I have a

786
00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:58,280
Speaker 4: tiny New York kitchen. Okay, I have a big kitchen

787
00:35:58,280 --> 00:35:59,399
Speaker 4: in Connecticut where I can.

788
00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:00,640
Speaker 5: Do like what the dream?

789
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:01,200
Speaker 4: Yeah?

790
00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:04,680
Speaker 5: Do you find yourself reading cookbooks for pleasure? Ever? Yeah?

791
00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:09,120
Speaker 4: Sometimes I have an expansive collection, and I just ordered

792
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:11,360
Speaker 4: what's that food book? It's like how to Eat a

793
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:13,279
Speaker 4: Wolf or something? Have you ever heard of that?

794
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:13,680
Speaker 1: No?

795
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:16,560
Speaker 4: Apparently it was written in World War Two and it's

796
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:20,680
Speaker 4: all about, like, I guess, how to eat frugally when

797
00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:22,480
Speaker 4: there's like not so much sweater.

798
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:25,040
Speaker 3: I'm looking forward to the rations how to Cook a

799
00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:25,600
Speaker 3: Wolf by.

800
00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:30,120
Speaker 5: Yes, Yeah, of course, Sorry, I thought it was more contemporary.

801
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:33,560
Speaker 4: Okay, So like I do, I do read some food stuff,

802
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:37,840
Speaker 4: but it's when I'm actually cooking. Having to scroll is

803
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:40,200
Speaker 4: really difficult because like your hands are covered in like

804
00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:43,040
Speaker 4: flour or sauce or whatever, and I just find it distracted.

805
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:44,919
Speaker 1: You'll be pleased to know that on my website there's

806
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:47,000
Speaker 1: a tab at the beginning that says jump to recipe,

807
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:48,400
Speaker 1: and you can always just click on it and skip

808
00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:48,920
Speaker 1: all the text.

809
00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:50,799
Speaker 4: I should have said, I have your book, by the way,

810
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:53,719
Speaker 4: the fancy one, nothing you fancy speaking.

811
00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:56,799
Speaker 2: Of AI and cooking, et cetera. You know, like all

812
00:36:56,880 --> 00:36:59,680
Speaker 2: media is fair, perhaps even you, but like all media

813
00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:04,719
Speaker 2: is very anxious about the presence of AI for various reasons,

814
00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:07,160
Speaker 2: and people were in how they're going to navigate it,

815
00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:12,160
Speaker 2: like traditional food media, like obviously you have an issue

816
00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:15,319
Speaker 2: of a name. People really like reading your stuff, like

817
00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:17,879
Speaker 2: what's the broader landscape look like these days? Or what's

818
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:19,240
Speaker 2: interesting in the broader landscape?

819
00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:20,400
Speaker 5: I think the broader landscape.

820
00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:24,000
Speaker 1: And we're noticing this in TV and also in newsletter culture,

821
00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:28,400
Speaker 1: both in fashion, food, cultural criticism, politics, we're sort of

822
00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:31,440
Speaker 1: going back to what we ran from.

823
00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:33,480
Speaker 5: So it's like the streamers.

824
00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:35,200
Speaker 1: Are bundling and you can watch all the things. Oh wait,

825
00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:38,120
Speaker 1: that's cable, right. And then so now the newsletter people

826
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:41,680
Speaker 1: are sort of gaining employees and learning how to bundle

827
00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:44,200
Speaker 1: their situation and saying, well, I've deflected and now we're

828
00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:47,239
Speaker 1: starting a cooperative. I'm like, well, that's a magazine. And

829
00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:50,399
Speaker 1: so it's so fascinating to me, and I think any

830
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:53,600
Speaker 1: of us that are old enough to have seen, you know,

831
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:58,000
Speaker 1: lived through the various cycles of media, and everything is

832
00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:01,480
Speaker 1: returning to itself, and you know, I'm sure they'll disband

833
00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:03,319
Speaker 1: again and it'll become more about the individual.

834
00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:05,560
Speaker 5: And now it's you know, coming back to magazine.

835
00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:09,200
Speaker 2: So you know, the move into tomato sauce maybe is

836
00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:12,479
Speaker 2: like a little bit of a difference between your old self,

837
00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:14,040
Speaker 2: or maybe you would have looked down on that when

838
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:17,800
Speaker 2: you think, Okay, tomato sauce like another very hot button

839
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:20,120
Speaker 2: thing in the news. There was a big viral New

840
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:22,760
Speaker 2: York Times article a couple of days ago about people

841
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:26,360
Speaker 2: spending crazy amounts of money on door dash and then

842
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:28,760
Speaker 2: people love to sneer at people who.

843
00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:30,640
Speaker 4: Buy crazy though, because some people just like.

844
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:33,080
Speaker 2: Love know, like there were like some like someone would

845
00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:34,320
Speaker 2: spending seven hundred.

846
00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:36,920
Speaker 5: Dollars in a week for him and his husband. I believe, right,

847
00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:37,440
Speaker 5: that's a lot.

848
00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:38,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, wait, how much did you say?

849
00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:39,319
Speaker 5: I think it was seven?

850
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:41,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was, it was. It was a couple like

851
00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:42,440
Speaker 3: they spent.

852
00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:44,280
Speaker 4: Wait what were they buying? Do you remember?

853
00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 1: Like?

854
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:45,840
Speaker 4: What were they getting?

855
00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:47,719
Speaker 1: All I know is that if my husband and I

856
00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:50,800
Speaker 1: order from our favorite Sashon restaurant, which is down the street,

857
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:53,040
Speaker 1: embarrassingly enough. Sometimes we do pick up, but if we're

858
00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:56,960
Speaker 1: getting into delivered, that can be upwards of one hundred

859
00:38:57,040 --> 00:38:58,000
Speaker 1: plus dollars.

860
00:38:57,880 --> 00:38:58,560
Speaker 4: It is.

861
00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:01,120
Speaker 5: So say you're ordering.

862
00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:02,640
Speaker 1: From a more expensive place and you're doing it seven

863
00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:05,320
Speaker 1: nights a week, Yeah, seven hundred dollars plus it really

864
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:06,439
Speaker 1: I could see how you get there.

865
00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:08,520
Speaker 2: The thing that I think also said people off was

866
00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:11,040
Speaker 2: the guy and the photo had these really nice copper

867
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:13,600
Speaker 2: pans and things. I know, stuff like that, Why did

868
00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:16,360
Speaker 2: you spend thousands of dollars to deck out your kids?

869
00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:18,560
Speaker 2: But apparently he was. But would you ever you know,

870
00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:20,960
Speaker 2: ten years from now, there's ever going to be an

871
00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:23,760
Speaker 2: Allison Roman like ghost kitchen that I've.

872
00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:25,719
Speaker 5: Been I've been approached so many times for that and.

873
00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:26,839
Speaker 3: Say about that.

874
00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:28,879
Speaker 2: But what's the pitch when they bring it.

875
00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:33,480
Speaker 1: To the pitch is people want high quality, chef made food.

876
00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:34,560
Speaker 5: You have a name.

877
00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:37,520
Speaker 1: People would go crazy to have Alison Roman's shallapasta made

878
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:37,960
Speaker 1: by Alison?

879
00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:42,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, but I'm not actually making that for you Tomato

880
00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:44,040
Speaker 5: sauce e there, but I'm not claiming to.

881
00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:47,880
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, And I think that there is to me

882
00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:54,200
Speaker 1: that that devalues what I actually do and having tomato

883
00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:56,280
Speaker 1: sauce and then making something when that tomato sauce feels

884
00:39:56,320 --> 00:39:58,480
Speaker 1: very different to me. I also understand meeting people where

885
00:39:58,480 --> 00:39:59,719
Speaker 1: they're at and if they're not going to make tomato

886
00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:02,399
Speaker 1: sauce scratch, at least they're cooking something at home, even

887
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:04,360
Speaker 1: if it's opening a jar and adding something to it

888
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:05,480
Speaker 1: and blah blah blah.

889
00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:07,040
Speaker 5: That to me is not a far cry.

890
00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:13,680
Speaker 1: But the ghost kitchen, the delivery, the d it's to

891
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:14,799
Speaker 1: me very impersonal.

892
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:17,880
Speaker 5: It freaks me out. I don't care for it.

893
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:20,040
Speaker 1: I think it's like a weird licensing of your name

894
00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:21,839
Speaker 1: in a way that feels really an authentic toamy.

895
00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:24,200
Speaker 2: Have you've seen that thing wonder?

896
00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:26,239
Speaker 3: Yes, I find it really weird.

897
00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:28,000
Speaker 2: I find it very creepy.

898
00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:28,719
Speaker 3: What is this?

899
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:31,359
Speaker 2: So it's like it's a sort of I think it's

900
00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:33,719
Speaker 2: I don't totally know the business, but I think it's

901
00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:37,960
Speaker 2: basically trying to roll up the DoorDash and the restaurant

902
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:40,680
Speaker 2: at the same time, so that they have this big

903
00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:43,799
Speaker 2: facility that can make thirty different kinds of cuisines, and

904
00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:45,680
Speaker 2: they have their own app and they have their own

905
00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:49,839
Speaker 2: delivery drivers, so basically just vertically integrate the whole supply chain.

906
00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:53,480
Speaker 2: But they have this space on not Houston, the one

907
00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:55,879
Speaker 2: that starts with D down on the Lower east Side,

908
00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:59,959
Speaker 2: Lancy Delancy, thank you. And on the outside it says

909
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:01,800
Speaker 2: like a new kind of food hall. And I was

910
00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:03,880
Speaker 2: like curious, I like food hall. So I got walked

911
00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:08,320
Speaker 2: in and there's just these kiosks screens and on the

912
00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:12,879
Speaker 2: screens there's like a Mexican option, Italian, and a Chinese one,

913
00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:13,600
Speaker 2: a Japanese.

914
00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:14,520
Speaker 5: It's like you're at the airport.

915
00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:15,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like you're.

916
00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:15,840
Speaker 3: At the airport.

917
00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:19,920
Speaker 2: And then so there's theory thirty kinds of restaurants.

918
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:21,319
Speaker 4: That now you guys are really selling.

919
00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:23,080
Speaker 3: It to me.

920
00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:25,120
Speaker 5: That is literally my personal hell.

921
00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:27,839
Speaker 1: And I think also where they get you is they

922
00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:30,080
Speaker 1: tell you a small business owner who's like a chef

923
00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:32,479
Speaker 1: who has a restaurant, My rent's going up. I can't

924
00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:34,960
Speaker 1: afford twenty thousand dollars in rent because blah blah blah

925
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:37,799
Speaker 1: door dash. Okay, so they come in and say, we

926
00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:39,719
Speaker 1: can give you the space, but no.

927
00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:41,120
Speaker 5: One can really eat in your restaurant.

928
00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:44,640
Speaker 1: So you're basically cutting out the entire reason for a

929
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:48,000
Speaker 1: restaurant to exist. And there are so many restaurants whose

930
00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:51,839
Speaker 1: business is like eighty five percent delivery and you walk

931
00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:54,840
Speaker 1: in and they're empty, but they're able to stay.

932
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:56,320
Speaker 5: Alive because of delivery.

933
00:41:56,520 --> 00:41:59,439
Speaker 1: So if you take away that rent and the need

934
00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:01,719
Speaker 1: to stack and did it out, that's pretty appealing to

935
00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:02,720
Speaker 1: a small business owner.

936
00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:05,319
Speaker 5: And I think it's very predatory.

937
00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:07,359
Speaker 1: I think it's very sort of like, we can help

938
00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:09,240
Speaker 1: you stay alive, and it's like, well, at what costs,

939
00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:12,680
Speaker 1: because you're then sort of you know, I don't. And

940
00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:15,200
Speaker 1: some of these businesses never start as a brick and

941
00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:18,040
Speaker 1: mortar They are only an idea. Or they do take

942
00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:20,440
Speaker 1: big name chefs and say we can do like a

943
00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:23,560
Speaker 1: fried chicken concept with your name on it. And when

944
00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:25,840
Speaker 1: you look on door Dash or Wonder or whatever, it

945
00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:28,319
Speaker 1: looks like a real restaurant. So you look like you

946
00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:30,600
Speaker 1: think you're ordering from a neighborhood restaurant, right, but it's

947
00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:31,640
Speaker 1: not a neighborhood restaurant.

948
00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:34,040
Speaker 4: I've done that before, and then I like walked past

949
00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:36,120
Speaker 4: where they were actually making the food and I was like,

950
00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:39,799
Speaker 4: wait a second, I've ordered from there, speaking of hell.

951
00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:43,320
Speaker 4: So one of the things that has changed in food

952
00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:46,879
Speaker 4: media over the years is I think the emphasis on aesthetics.

953
00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:52,400
Speaker 4: So I think everyone probably does this. I certainly am guilty.

954
00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:54,600
Speaker 4: But if I make something that I'm proud of, I

955
00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:57,560
Speaker 4: take a photo of it post it on social media.

956
00:42:58,320 --> 00:42:58,880
Speaker 2: You didn't cook it.

957
00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:01,200
Speaker 4: Otherwise I didn't cook it. There's no proof. How do

958
00:43:01,239 --> 00:43:04,719
Speaker 4: you think about that particular aspect when you're coming up

959
00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:08,000
Speaker 4: with recipes or you know, deciding what to do with

960
00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:08,920
Speaker 4: your food empire.

961
00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:10,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's funny.

962
00:43:10,040 --> 00:43:12,800
Speaker 1: I just wrote an article about this for the newly

963
00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:15,799
Speaker 1: relaunched Gourmet magazine, which I don't know if you guys

964
00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:19,000
Speaker 1: heard about that or what they're doing, but the condeas

965
00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:22,920
Speaker 1: trademark for Gourmet, the old magazine had to laugh. They

966
00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:25,200
Speaker 1: let it lapse, and so this group of people, one

967
00:43:25,239 --> 00:43:27,359
Speaker 1: of whom was a friend of mine, took it over

968
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:31,400
Speaker 1: and relaunched it as basically a website newsletter. So very interesting.

969
00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:32,840
Speaker 1: Thing that they're doing is a very different tone of

970
00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:35,759
Speaker 1: always very different five. It's sort of like pirates that

971
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:37,640
Speaker 1: took over a ship and you're like, oh, this is

972
00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:38,560
Speaker 1: not the same Gourmet.

973
00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:41,480
Speaker 5: But I think in a very fun and it's cool

974
00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:42,000
Speaker 5: smart way.

975
00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:45,920
Speaker 1: But I was thinking a lot about this recently because

976
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:49,320
Speaker 1: it feels like most people now, especially on the Internet,

977
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:52,920
Speaker 1: are making food to look good. They're reverse engineering of

978
00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:55,040
Speaker 1: like what's going to look beautiful and what's going to

979
00:43:55,080 --> 00:43:57,399
Speaker 1: look great? And this is going back to I worked

980
00:43:57,440 --> 00:44:01,080
Speaker 1: at BuzzFeed Food for approximately eight months fifteen years ago

981
00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:03,879
Speaker 1: or ten years ago, how long, I don't know, it's

982
00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:06,000
Speaker 1: too long ago anyway, But it was sort of like

983
00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:09,520
Speaker 1: I would watch them in the way that they considered

984
00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:11,520
Speaker 1: what recipes to run and what they would make videos

985
00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:12,880
Speaker 1: out of, and it was always like, well, what has

986
00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:14,040
Speaker 1: cheese and what has cream?

987
00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:14,680
Speaker 5: And what has this?

988
00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:17,640
Speaker 1: And it was always reverse engineered from a visual perspective.

989
00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:19,759
Speaker 1: And I think that we're still sort of in that,

990
00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:23,080
Speaker 1: even if it's a lady in her kitchen or guy

991
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:25,200
Speaker 1: in his kitchen with like a forward facing iPhone and

992
00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:29,359
Speaker 1: so I as a reaction to this, I developed this

993
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:32,319
Speaker 1: recipe for pork cooked in milk, which is a very

994
00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:33,880
Speaker 1: old Italian recipe.

995
00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:36,920
Speaker 5: It's ugly as hell. It is just sinful.

996
00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:40,720
Speaker 1: It is beige and clumpy with milk curds and soft

997
00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:44,239
Speaker 1: looking and it's really disgusting, but wow, does it taste good.

998
00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:45,680
Speaker 5: It's like truly incredible.

999
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:48,319
Speaker 4: Some of the best tasting things, yes, are just like

1000
00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:50,120
Speaker 4: a bowl of slop or they look like it.

1001
00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:52,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think it was sort of you know

1002
00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:53,920
Speaker 1: what about this food?

1003
00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:55,040
Speaker 5: Like are we going to make this food on the

1004
00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:55,760
Speaker 5: internet anymore?

1005
00:44:55,880 --> 00:44:59,799
Speaker 1: Like, because I had considered what could I develop for

1006
00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:01,799
Speaker 1: this magazine that I wouldn't develop for myself, And I

1007
00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:03,480
Speaker 1: told my friend, I was like, well, I would never

1008
00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:05,600
Speaker 1: put this on my own really because it's too ugly.

1009
00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:09,200
Speaker 1: But also I understand that part of encouraging someone to

1010
00:45:09,239 --> 00:45:11,520
Speaker 1: eat something is it has to look good and it

1011
00:45:11,560 --> 00:45:13,319
Speaker 1: also has to sound good. So the writing has to

1012
00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:14,680
Speaker 1: be there and the photo has to be there, and

1013
00:45:14,760 --> 00:45:16,000
Speaker 1: everything works in conjunction.

1014
00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:17,920
Speaker 5: But it was just an interesting exercise.

1015
00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:20,520
Speaker 1: And I think that I said something to the effect of, like,

1016
00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:23,960
Speaker 1: we're not developing recipes, we're designing them. And I think

1017
00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:28,759
Speaker 1: that a lot of people lead with aesthetics and what

1018
00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:32,880
Speaker 1: they think will quote perform well, versus thinking about is

1019
00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:35,680
Speaker 1: something like a soulful, authentically created recipe.

1020
00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:36,719
Speaker 5: Can we just.

1021
00:45:36,719 --> 00:45:39,240
Speaker 2: Return a little bit to the tomato sauce?

1022
00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:40,000
Speaker 3: But I'm curious.

1023
00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:40,239
Speaker 5: You know.

1024
00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:43,800
Speaker 2: One another reason we like to talk about this topic

1025
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:46,319
Speaker 2: is because you get a snapshot into the consumer and

1026
00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:49,520
Speaker 2: pricing and all the et cetera. When did you conceive

1027
00:45:49,560 --> 00:45:51,480
Speaker 2: of this like when when did this idea that you're

1028
00:45:51,480 --> 00:45:52,799
Speaker 2: going to launch a tomato.

1029
00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:57,200
Speaker 5: In two thoy twenty three?

1030
00:45:57,680 --> 00:45:59,960
Speaker 2: So like, okay, so two and a half or three

1031
00:45:59,880 --> 00:46:04,799
Speaker 2: years later when you look at costs of jars, the

1032
00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:07,560
Speaker 2: glass jars, when you look at ingredients or rent, like,

1033
00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:10,680
Speaker 2: how is the math working out relative to what it

1034
00:46:10,719 --> 00:46:14,080
Speaker 2: looked like in twenty twenty three and how volatile is

1035
00:46:14,120 --> 00:46:16,839
Speaker 2: it still in terms of being able to you know,

1036
00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:19,680
Speaker 2: get a good price on the raw ingredient, So the

1037
00:46:19,719 --> 00:46:21,680
Speaker 2: good price on jars, a good price on shipping and

1038
00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:22,239
Speaker 2: stuff like that.

1039
00:46:22,360 --> 00:46:25,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, that hasn't fluctuated too much. Again, that's really a

1040
00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:29,200
Speaker 1: scale question. So the reason why D two C doesn't

1041
00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:31,319
Speaker 1: quite work for a business model in this way with

1042
00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:33,879
Speaker 1: something like tomato sauce is because jars are heavy jars

1043
00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:37,320
Speaker 1: of sauce or even heavier, so you're shipping will always

1044
00:46:37,360 --> 00:46:41,279
Speaker 1: be the thing that gets you. And so there are

1045
00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:43,080
Speaker 1: you know, we looked into you know, we had a

1046
00:46:43,080 --> 00:46:46,560
Speaker 1: copacker or a three pl in California and we're like, okay,

1047
00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:48,239
Speaker 1: so we're going to ship the sauce from Brooklyn to

1048
00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:49,640
Speaker 1: LA and then it's going to go out to the

1049
00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:51,440
Speaker 1: rest of the cut. We're like, no, that's going to

1050
00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:54,000
Speaker 1: add a dollar fifty per jar or whatever. So you

1051
00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:57,200
Speaker 1: look at every consideration. Okay, this might be slightly more

1052
00:46:57,200 --> 00:46:59,480
Speaker 1: expensive here, but we're saving here, so that's actually the

1053
00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:02,800
Speaker 1: better choice. But again, it's scale, so we could be

1054
00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:06,880
Speaker 1: jars could fluctuate within a few cents. The packing materials

1055
00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:09,840
Speaker 1: was something that we really considered because jars cannot explode

1056
00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:13,200
Speaker 1: on their way to you. The better that the packaging,

1057
00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:16,000
Speaker 1: the more expensive the packaging. And so we someone told

1058
00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:18,440
Speaker 1: me it was like, they're like, it feels like an

1059
00:47:18,520 --> 00:47:20,600
Speaker 1: old school election box, where like, how am I going

1060
00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:22,719
Speaker 1: to break into this box? She's like, but all the

1061
00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:25,239
Speaker 1: jars arrived intact, and that was really important to us,

1062
00:47:25,239 --> 00:47:27,239
Speaker 1: So we spent a little bit more money on the packaging.

1063
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:30,279
Speaker 4: Wait, how do you actually evaluate the jars? Are you

1064
00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:31,000
Speaker 4: like tossing them?

1065
00:47:33,160 --> 00:47:35,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, you send it to your parents, you send it

1066
00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:36,560
Speaker 1: to yourself.

1067
00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:38,160
Speaker 4: Here's a bunch of empty jars, enjoy.

1068
00:47:38,239 --> 00:47:39,560
Speaker 5: Now you put the saucege off. Yeah.

1069
00:47:40,040 --> 00:47:42,520
Speaker 1: There's a lot of like a few trial and error situations,

1070
00:47:42,560 --> 00:47:44,200
Speaker 1: and some of them were asthetic choices of like oh

1071
00:47:44,239 --> 00:47:46,080
Speaker 1: I don't like the way this is or how does

1072
00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:46,960
Speaker 1: it feel to open it?

1073
00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:49,640
Speaker 5: Is it complicated, is annoying? Is there too much material?

1074
00:47:49,760 --> 00:47:50,760
Speaker 5: Does it feel wasteful?

1075
00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:54,239
Speaker 1: All of those things were deeply, deeply considered, and then

1076
00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:56,520
Speaker 1: to say nothing of like do you put a card

1077
00:47:56,520 --> 00:47:56,799
Speaker 1: in there?

1078
00:47:56,840 --> 00:47:57,480
Speaker 5: Do you put a note?

1079
00:47:57,520 --> 00:47:59,680
Speaker 1: Does it come with a ribbit like the asthetic choices

1080
00:47:59,719 --> 00:48:02,960
Speaker 1: which also add cost? And so you know, of course,

1081
00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:05,360
Speaker 1: that's why the obvious choice is to be sold in

1082
00:48:05,360 --> 00:48:07,360
Speaker 1: the store, because you're not dealing with any of that.

1083
00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:10,759
Speaker 1: And I think a lot of to me respectable D

1084
00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:15,880
Speaker 1: two C brands evolve into retail only, but at first

1085
00:48:15,960 --> 00:48:17,800
Speaker 1: doing the D two C model to like get people

1086
00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:19,440
Speaker 1: into it, to get people hooked, to get people like

1087
00:48:19,560 --> 00:48:22,839
Speaker 1: excited about a product sort of, then you can show

1088
00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:24,719
Speaker 1: those bigger retailers like, look at all the people who

1089
00:48:24,719 --> 00:48:26,239
Speaker 1: already love this product who are going to buy it

1090
00:48:26,239 --> 00:48:26,920
Speaker 1: in your store.

1091
00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:29,279
Speaker 2: So are you like maxed out capacity wise right now?

1092
00:48:29,320 --> 00:48:31,120
Speaker 2: Are you like busting at the seams in terms of

1093
00:48:31,320 --> 00:48:34,000
Speaker 2: how much you can move in a given week or month.

1094
00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:34,719
Speaker 5: With Tomato sauce?

1095
00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:35,200
Speaker 4: Yeah?

1096
00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:36,440
Speaker 3: Yes, that's great.

1097
00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:38,920
Speaker 1: Very much so, and it's good and I think that

1098
00:48:39,400 --> 00:48:42,680
Speaker 1: to me, the biggest drawback there is that we launched

1099
00:48:42,680 --> 00:48:46,040
Speaker 1: in September and also the reason it took so long

1100
00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:48,440
Speaker 1: is because I had a baby. I was like about

1101
00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:50,480
Speaker 1: to we were going to launch it and push it,

1102
00:48:50,520 --> 00:48:52,759
Speaker 1: and then I became too close to the do date,

1103
00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:54,719
Speaker 1: which is good because I went into labor a month early,

1104
00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:58,120
Speaker 1: but I can't imagine having done that at the same time,

1105
00:48:58,120 --> 00:48:59,600
Speaker 1: so thank god I put a pause on it. I

1106
00:48:59,640 --> 00:49:01,480
Speaker 1: was like, we also redesigned the labels, like it was

1107
00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:03,920
Speaker 1: a good reset. It was almost like a false start.

1108
00:49:04,239 --> 00:49:07,799
Speaker 1: But anyway, we launched in September and I had these

1109
00:49:07,840 --> 00:49:10,080
Speaker 1: beautiful photos taken and like, I had all these ideas

1110
00:49:10,080 --> 00:49:13,200
Speaker 1: for campaign and marketing, and we sold out immediately and

1111
00:49:13,239 --> 00:49:13,879
Speaker 1: I was like, Okay, well.

1112
00:49:13,840 --> 00:49:15,359
Speaker 5: Maybe I'll do it the next week once we're back

1113
00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:15,760
Speaker 5: in stock.

1114
00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:17,840
Speaker 1: We kept selling out at such a clip that I

1115
00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:20,080
Speaker 1: couldn't really ever talk about it. So I feel like,

1116
00:49:20,080 --> 00:49:22,360
Speaker 1: in a way, we haven't like fully even launched with

1117
00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:23,479
Speaker 1: its pull potent. Right.

1118
00:49:23,560 --> 00:49:26,640
Speaker 2: That's fantastic, Allison Roman, can you come back into six

1119
00:49:26,680 --> 00:49:28,440
Speaker 2: months or a year and like, any after you've had

1120
00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:30,719
Speaker 2: all of these conversations that we could do a part

1121
00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:32,440
Speaker 2: two on what you've learned when you're when you.

1122
00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:35,040
Speaker 4: Get the whole Foods contract. I'd be super interested what

1123
00:49:35,080 --> 00:49:35,880
Speaker 4: those discussions are.

1124
00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:36,840
Speaker 5: Actually, yeah, we want.

1125
00:49:36,719 --> 00:49:40,000
Speaker 2: To hear about what the other half of the mountain looks.

1126
00:49:40,080 --> 00:49:43,000
Speaker 1: This is a perfect diary entry of following a small business.

1127
00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:45,480
Speaker 1: I really am and we very very start and I

1128
00:49:45,520 --> 00:49:47,399
Speaker 1: think it would be really fun to come back if

1129
00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:48,400
Speaker 1: and when things change.

1130
00:49:48,520 --> 00:49:51,040
Speaker 5: And this has been great. I love talking about this stuff.

1131
00:49:51,480 --> 00:49:52,000
Speaker 5: What a pleasure.

1132
00:49:52,040 --> 00:49:53,160
Speaker 2: Well, thank you so much for coming on.

1133
00:49:53,239 --> 00:49:53,640
Speaker 3: That was great.

1134
00:49:53,719 --> 00:50:08,239
Speaker 2: Thank you, Uh, Tracy, that was a lot of fun.

1135
00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:10,320
Speaker 2: I don't know, you've probably noticed this too. We've probably

1136
00:50:10,320 --> 00:50:12,000
Speaker 2: talked about it. You know, if you look at the

1137
00:50:12,040 --> 00:50:16,600
Speaker 2: business section of the Apple Podcasts, like that top podcast list,

1138
00:50:16,680 --> 00:50:20,200
Speaker 2: it's like dominated by like starting a business podcast like

1139
00:50:20,239 --> 00:50:23,920
Speaker 2: entrepreneurs And maybe we should pivot into I love these conversations.

1140
00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:26,880
Speaker 2: Maybe we should pivot into you know, diary of an

1141
00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:29,000
Speaker 2: entrepreneur type episodes. They're really fun.

1142
00:50:29,080 --> 00:50:29,879
Speaker 3: You learn a lot, you.

1143
00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:32,040
Speaker 4: Know what I want to do. Yeah, the All Thoughts

1144
00:50:32,080 --> 00:50:35,480
Speaker 4: cooking show. We should we do a cooking video.

1145
00:50:35,640 --> 00:50:36,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, that would be great.

1146
00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:39,360
Speaker 4: We'll get a recipe from Alison and we'll cook it live.

1147
00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:43,160
Speaker 2: And bart from Butter Buttersworths and all the and the

1148
00:50:43,280 --> 00:50:44,400
Speaker 2: Zeno's Pizza guys.

1149
00:50:44,520 --> 00:50:45,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, we could get all of them.

1150
00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:48,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is actually our book idea, because we never

1151
00:50:48,160 --> 00:50:49,759
Speaker 2: settled on a book that you and I want to

1152
00:50:49,800 --> 00:50:52,120
Speaker 2: write together. But we could just do a food one.

1153
00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:56,040
Speaker 2: We're in each recipe someone learns something about the supply

1154
00:50:56,160 --> 00:50:56,960
Speaker 2: chain for that business.

1155
00:50:57,120 --> 00:50:58,279
Speaker 4: That's a great idea.

1156
00:50:58,440 --> 00:50:59,200
Speaker 2: If you're listening, if.

1157
00:50:59,120 --> 00:51:01,600
Speaker 3: You're out there in public and you hear this, hit this.

1158
00:51:01,719 --> 00:51:05,040
Speaker 4: Up, that's right. No, that was a fascinating conversation. One

1159
00:51:05,040 --> 00:51:08,879
Speaker 4: thing I hadn't really considered that much is the difficulty

1160
00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:12,560
Speaker 4: of deciding when to scale before you have that big

1161
00:51:12,600 --> 00:51:15,600
Speaker 4: distribution contract, because, as Alison said, like it does feel

1162
00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:18,040
Speaker 4: like a chicken and egg problem because you have to

1163
00:51:18,040 --> 00:51:21,239
Speaker 4: pitch to the grocery store or whatever that you can

1164
00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:25,239
Speaker 4: actually produce this stuff at scale, and then you have

1165
00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:28,200
Speaker 4: to decide whether you want to invest at scale in

1166
00:51:28,320 --> 00:51:29,840
Speaker 4: order to be able to make the pitch.

1167
00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:33,399
Speaker 2: No, scale seems just sort of brutal in every respect. Right,

1168
00:51:33,440 --> 00:51:36,200
Speaker 2: If you raise VC money, then you have a lot

1169
00:51:36,200 --> 00:51:38,279
Speaker 2: of money to pay back before you ever see a

1170
00:51:38,320 --> 00:51:42,120
Speaker 2: dime of profit yourself. Same obviously for lending, and that's

1171
00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:44,480
Speaker 2: probably particularly hard for this.

1172
00:51:44,960 --> 00:51:45,959
Speaker 3: And then just you know, you.

1173
00:51:45,840 --> 00:51:47,880
Speaker 2: Have to get into a new facility that chicken and

1174
00:51:47,880 --> 00:51:51,839
Speaker 2: egg prompt. I'll say it definitely clearly doesn't hurt to

1175
00:51:51,880 --> 00:51:54,000
Speaker 2: have to be a celebrity. I know she's sort of

1176
00:51:54,960 --> 00:51:58,960
Speaker 2: hesitant about the word, but obviously a food celebrity. And

1177
00:51:59,000 --> 00:52:00,880
Speaker 2: the other thing it didn't come up in the conversation,

1178
00:52:01,239 --> 00:52:04,279
Speaker 2: but something that I thought about right after it's come

1179
00:52:04,360 --> 00:52:06,839
Speaker 2: up a little bit on our show is she doesn't

1180
00:52:06,880 --> 00:52:09,360
Speaker 2: have to pay the Facebook tax. Right, most companies that

1181
00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:12,680
Speaker 2: are in CpG, a big chunk of their money immediately

1182
00:52:12,719 --> 00:52:15,919
Speaker 2: goes to Instagram, ads mark, whatever. And when you own

1183
00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:18,319
Speaker 2: a distribution list, do you have a popular newsletter, et

1184
00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:21,280
Speaker 2: cetera that you could sell out a run without having

1185
00:52:21,360 --> 00:52:23,359
Speaker 2: to spend like create that's a.

1186
00:52:23,360 --> 00:52:25,480
Speaker 4: Huge well, as she said, like she hasn't even really

1187
00:52:25,520 --> 00:52:26,440
Speaker 4: been advertising it.

1188
00:52:26,760 --> 00:52:28,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know that's sizing. That's a huge lesson and

1189
00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:29,520
Speaker 3: she sold out.

1190
00:52:29,600 --> 00:52:31,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's crazy. All right, shall we leave it there.

1191
00:52:32,080 --> 00:52:32,799
Speaker 5: Let's leave it there.

1192
00:52:32,960 --> 00:52:35,360
Speaker 4: This has been another episode of the Odd Thoughts Podcast.

1193
00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:38,640
Speaker 4: I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow me at Tracy Alloway.

1194
00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:41,040
Speaker 2: And I'm Joe Wisenthal. You can follow me at The Stalwart.

1195
00:52:41,320 --> 00:52:44,800
Speaker 2: Follow our guest Allison Roman on Instagram at Alison E. Roman,

1196
00:52:45,040 --> 00:52:48,120
Speaker 2: follow our producers Kerman Rodriguez at Kerman armand dash Ol

1197
00:52:48,120 --> 00:52:51,080
Speaker 2: Bennett a Dashbot and Kele Brooks at Kelbrooks. And for

1198
00:52:51,160 --> 00:52:53,600
Speaker 2: more odd Laws content go to Bloomberg dot com slash

1199
00:52:53,640 --> 00:52:55,560
Speaker 2: odd Lots were of a daily newsletter and all of

1200
00:52:55,600 --> 00:52:57,759
Speaker 2: our episodes, and you can shout about all of these

1201
00:52:57,800 --> 00:53:01,120
Speaker 2: topics twenty four to seven in our discoord discord dot

1202
00:53:01,120 --> 00:53:02,280
Speaker 2: gg slash odd.

1203
00:53:02,080 --> 00:53:04,719
Speaker 4: Lots And if you enjoy all lots, if you want

1204
00:53:04,800 --> 00:53:07,640
Speaker 4: us to post recipes and do cooking shows and write

1205
00:53:07,680 --> 00:53:10,680
Speaker 4: a cooking book, then please leave us a positive review

1206
00:53:10,760 --> 00:53:13,759
Speaker 4: on your favorite podcast platform. And remember, if you are

1207
00:53:13,800 --> 00:53:16,640
Speaker 4: a Bloomberg subscriber, you can listen to all of our

1208
00:53:16,680 --> 00:53:19,680
Speaker 4: episodes absolutely ad free. All you need to do is

1209
00:53:19,680 --> 00:53:22,320
Speaker 4: find the Bloomberg channel on Apple Podcasts and follow the

1210
00:53:22,360 --> 00:53:24,400
Speaker 4: instructions there. Thanks for listening.