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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Staphone

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Speaker 1: ever told you protection of iHeartRadio? And today we are

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Speaker 1: recording an episode that I'm not sure when it will

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Speaker 1: come out, but I'm very excited about it.

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Speaker 2: We've been talking about this episode for a minute.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we have actually I think over a year at least,

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Speaker 1: but it was I really got a catalyst when our

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Speaker 1: friend of the show listener Jamie wrote in and suggested, quote,

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Speaker 1: what about shipping and problematic ships like the non con

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Speaker 1: forcing a sexual aspect into a friendship and shipping wars

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Speaker 1: with the related internet abuse, which for some of you,

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Speaker 1: I bet you're like, what does that mean? We're gonna

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Speaker 1: talk about it, We're gonna break it all down. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: this is This is a big conversation right now, and

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Speaker 1: it's changed so much since I started being Fanish in

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Speaker 1: the fans space, so there's a lot to go over

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Speaker 1: in a lot of history. This might be a two parter.

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Speaker 1: I don't think it will be, but who knows. We'll see,

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Speaker 1: We'll see.

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Speaker 2: You always have like I feel like you and I

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Speaker 2: have both are like, it's not going to be that long,

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Speaker 2: and it ends up being either the full amount and

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Speaker 2: then some and especially for those AH are like maybe well,

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Speaker 2: but then again, we've also had those moments it's like

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Speaker 2: this is gonna be really long and then it ends

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Speaker 2: up being not not yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yes. So it's hard to say because I do have

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Speaker 1: a lot of thoughts about this, and I'm actually going

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Speaker 1: to put my thoughts at the end of this episode

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Speaker 1: slash episodes. But I'm built they'll be throughout. I'm sure.

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Speaker 1: I just have a lot of opinions. Also, very brief

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Speaker 1: spoilers for Good Omens season two, very vague and at

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Speaker 1: the end, and I'll give a heads up, but uh,

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Speaker 1: big part of the conversation right now, shall I say?

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Speaker 2: My TikTok is full of Michael and David like doing

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Speaker 2: their little parody shows is the entire thing. And I

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Speaker 2: guess because Good Omens Too had come out, there's more

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Speaker 2: like ads and I'm like, why I don't even know them.

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Speaker 2: That will help, but they are really funny.

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Speaker 1: It also could be that you sent me one.

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Speaker 2: I did well because I had been getting them in

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Speaker 2: my feet. I was like, why am I getting so

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Speaker 2: much of this content? And then when I asked, dude,

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Speaker 2: you were like, no, I haven't seen because they did

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Speaker 2: the whole Zoom Show web series I believe with the

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Speaker 2: director from Good Omens, and I was like, have you

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Speaker 2: not seen this? Well, you definitely have to because it's

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Speaker 2: right up your rally and I've never seen good Omens either.

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Speaker 1: I do love Good Omens. Oh well, getting into so

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Speaker 1: today we are talking about shipping, but I guess that

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Speaker 1: we should start with a definition for people who might

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Speaker 1: not know what is shipping.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and I love that this is from Urban Dayctionary

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Speaker 2: because we do talk about a lot of like fanfic

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Speaker 2: words from Urban Dictionary, don't we So it is from

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Speaker 2: Urban Dictionary. The act of one wanting supporting two individuals

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Speaker 2: involved in a romantic relationship a verb used to describe

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Speaker 2: the action of wishing for two people to enter a relationship,

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Speaker 2: whether romantic or occasionally platonic, in books, movies, TV shows,

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Speaker 2: or real life. Shipping can often happen involuntarily, and it

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Speaker 2: is the majority of what happens on the website Tumblr,

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Speaker 2: really Tumbler. There are some very popular ships, some unpopular,

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Speaker 2: as well as often lots of controversy between ships from

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Speaker 2: the same fando.

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Speaker 1: I would also say that it can include two or

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Speaker 1: more individuals. It says two people. It can be it

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Speaker 1: can be more poly cool. But yeah, that's that's pretty

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Speaker 1: that's pretty good. Uh, that's where the name come s from.

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Speaker 1: Relationshipping shipping.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know what with people who are not

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Speaker 2: a part of the fanfic world, because I've noticed this

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Speaker 2: as I'm on like a lot of the K pop

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Speaker 2: yep tiktoks that when they do the shipping, I get

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Speaker 2: very confused thinking it's real because they do this like

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Speaker 2: montage and I'm like, wait, are they is this true?

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Speaker 2: I'm very confused, and I think it take it as

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Speaker 2: a reality because when they do that with real people,

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Speaker 2: very I'm very confused about what just happened.

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Speaker 1: Essentially, Oh yes, oh my gosh, I'm glad you brought

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Speaker 1: that up actually, because I'm not even going to talk

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Speaker 1: about in here, but that is something people do, like

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Speaker 1: we'll make videos, will make this content that you're like,

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Speaker 1: wait what.

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Speaker 2: And then they'll do like rumored things on there that

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Speaker 2: I'm like, what did that happen? Did that really happen?

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Speaker 2: Where they're like the main of course, the ones that

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Speaker 2: I've seen the most of has been like Stray Kids

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Speaker 2: and of course BTS. But the BTS one has kind

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Speaker 2: of wavered down, and the stray Kads have a lot

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Speaker 2: more content because of it, Like they're very affectionate kids

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Speaker 2: with each other. Like I'm not sure if they are.

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Speaker 2: If they are together, wonderful, But I'm like, y'all are

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Speaker 2: confusing me as a person who has no idea what's

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Speaker 2: happening in this shipping fanfic world. And then you put

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Speaker 2: two real people and then put this like glossy montage

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Speaker 2: of them that I'm like, did that really happen? Is

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Speaker 2: that a thing?

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Speaker 1: Oh? Yes, it's a whole it's a whole world.

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Speaker 2: So confused then, And I would assume that because they

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Speaker 2: are idols of swords, that the people the fans would

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Speaker 2: not want them to be together since they're in love

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Speaker 2: with them. I thought or like they had a you know,

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Speaker 2: like a but apparently it really is a thing, a

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Speaker 2: big thing that they want them to be together.

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Speaker 1: I have a lot of thoughts about this, actually, oh,

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Speaker 1: because I think and it's understandable. People get weirded out

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Speaker 1: when people ship real people, and trust me, as we've

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Speaker 1: discussed several times on the show, there are problems with that,

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Speaker 1: especially when you start hating on a real life person right.

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Speaker 1: But I also think that a lot of times when

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Speaker 1: people ship real life people or when they write fanfic

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Speaker 1: about real life people, that's it's not a it's not

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Speaker 1: someone you know, it's not somebody you've ever met. So

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Speaker 1: it is almost like a fictional character in that way,

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Speaker 1: and usually one person and we actually are going to

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Speaker 1: talk about this, but there's like a stand in for

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Speaker 1: the person you think you're like and stand in for

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Speaker 1: the person you want to be with. Right.

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Speaker 2: I feel like you've mentioned that before in our fanfic episodes,

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Speaker 2: But like I found that interesting because it actually has

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Speaker 2: damaged some people's reputations because in things like South Korea

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Speaker 2: Asian countries, which is very like homophobic countries, when they

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Speaker 2: did that, there would be rumors throlling about and then

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Speaker 2: like papers that would be coming out be like no,

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Speaker 2: that's not true, and having to like separate people so

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Speaker 2: even if they're a really good friends and they can't

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Speaker 2: be around each other because of these like made up

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Speaker 2: stories about real people. So I'm like, oh, that's sad,

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Speaker 2: but that's an odd it's such an odd phenomenon when

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Speaker 2: you see fanfic like that go like overlapping real life.

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Speaker 1: It is interesting I. I know I've said it before,

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Speaker 1: but I've I've read some fan fiction about myself and

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Speaker 1: I was like, oh, cool.

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Speaker 2: That's supposed to be that's closing. Wait do you have

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Speaker 2: a ship? Is there a ship for you and Lauren?

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Speaker 1: There's been a ship between me and Lauren, There's been

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Speaker 1: a ship between me and Bridge it. I haven't checked

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Speaker 1: since you came on. I don't know, but.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I didn't think.

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Speaker 1: I'm not gonna lie.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I guess that makes sense, especially if it's

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Speaker 2: about you. And I'm like, huh, would I be in

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Speaker 2: that one? Would I be the like, the unapproachable one,

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Speaker 2: because this isn't that how I go. It is the

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Speaker 2: hard that's one that gets hard, that's hard, that has

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Speaker 2: to stop it up for one person.

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Speaker 1: Uh kind of, And I swear we actually are going

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Speaker 1: to talk about this. And I didn't know about this,

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Speaker 1: but I was like, oh my god. There's usually I'm

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Speaker 1: usually like the shy, embarrassed yes. And then everyone else

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Speaker 1: that I've been shipped with is like come to this

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Speaker 1: bar with.

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Speaker 2: Me, oh dear, which would be hilarious and very fictional,

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Speaker 2: because I'm the one like I'm not going to a

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Speaker 2: bar my house and hang out.

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Speaker 1: But that's kind of my point is that there's like

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Speaker 1: this understanding of that's funny this flash, these flashes we

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Speaker 1: get of people online, or how we understand them to be.

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Speaker 1: So it does feel kind of fictional. Like when I

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Speaker 1: read something like that, I'm like, oh, no, it's not.

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Speaker 2: It was obviously not me, but but you like.

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Speaker 1: I was like, oh, go to that bar.

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Speaker 2: That bar, touch our hot fingers lightly at each other's.

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Speaker 1: Drinks so furiously, Oh my gosh, and turn around. Maybe

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Speaker 1: this will be a two part and we haven't even

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Speaker 1: gotten a segad definition.

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Speaker 2: Sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. It's so good to get

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Speaker 2: into before we start. So let's jump into the second

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Speaker 2: part of the definition.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, so this is from fan lore Wiki. Shipping

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Speaker 1: and fandom is the act of supporting our wishing for

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Speaker 1: a particular romantic relationship that is a het different sex

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Speaker 1: slash male slash male, fem slash female female, or polly

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Speaker 1: through your more characters ship by discussing it, writing meta

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Speaker 1: about it, or creating other types of fan works exploring it.

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Speaker 1: Fans who have and promote favorite ships are called shippers.

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Speaker 1: They might assert that the relationship does exist or will exist.

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Speaker 1: In Cannon that they would like it to exist are

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Speaker 1: simply that they enjoy imagining it. Shippers who support multiple

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Speaker 1: ships within a single canon are often referred to as

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Speaker 1: multi shippers, especially if they support those ships equally. The

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Speaker 1: relationships that fans promote or wish for are not all happy,

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Speaker 1: fluffy bunny ones. Fans also enjoy enemy slash and wrong shipping.

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Speaker 1: We're going to talk about that more later, but yeah.

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Speaker 2: I'm sorry, I'm just so old, but wrong ship. It

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Speaker 2: was like, like, as I know, you send it to the

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Speaker 2: wrong address.

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Speaker 1: I've seen reactions like that, so I don't think you're alone.

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Speaker 1: It has got a lot more mainstream though we're going

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Speaker 1: to talk about. Some shippers support relationships that are portrayed

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Speaker 1: or acknowledged as established in canon. Some shippers like relationships

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Speaker 1: that exist only as subtext, whether intentional or accidental itself

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Speaker 1: a topic of debate, and some prefer relationships where the

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Speaker 1: characters have no subtext discernible to non shippers. Some fans

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Speaker 1: ship characters who never even appear in Cannon together later

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Speaker 1: I'll talk about that. It is important to note that

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Speaker 1: some percentage of fans actively do not want their ship

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Speaker 1: to become canon especially wrong shippers and fans who don't

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Speaker 1: trust the shows and writers to do it right. Shippers

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Speaker 1: have been known to regret it when their wish came true.

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Speaker 1: There's a very famous example of that that we'll talk about.

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Speaker 1: And yes, okay, so I didn't know about this, but

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Speaker 1: when I read it, I was like, oh, obviously there's

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Speaker 1: also anti shippers are no romos no romance?

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Speaker 2: Why does that sound like an insult? I don't like.

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Speaker 1: That who actively don't want romance between characters. They can

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Speaker 1: be just as passionate as shippers in their fight against

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Speaker 1: a ship. And some of the earliest online no romos

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Speaker 1: feel that they lost when Moulder and Scully's relationship became canon,

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Speaker 1: because if you haven't seen X files, that's actually where

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Speaker 1: shipping the term first showed up. They did. Moulder and

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Speaker 1: Scully did eventually get together, and.

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Speaker 2: So was that always the plan? Though?

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Speaker 1: Oh I don't think so. But yeah. They often say

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Speaker 1: that they want to believe that relationships can be platonic.

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Speaker 1: Gonna break that down later too. There's a lot to

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Speaker 1: break down in this.

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Speaker 2: I think this is gonna be a two part I.

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Speaker 1: We'll see this is fun, we'll all find out together.

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Speaker 1: It is something fandoms love to fight over, and sometimes

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Speaker 1: in a healthy way and sometimes in a very very

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Speaker 1: very unhealthy way, but it is often something people bond

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Speaker 1: over too.

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Speaker 2: Uh.

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Speaker 1: The ship typically has a name, and sometimes one of

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Speaker 1: the first questions fans will ask each other when that

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Speaker 1: Dido song came out, I will go down with this ship.

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Speaker 1: That became a very popular meme, especially because David Borianus

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Speaker 1: was in that music video and Angel Buffy Spike Shipping.

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Speaker 2: War, which has a hall a lot of shipping, I'm

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Speaker 2: sure because also Willow has her own little m she.

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Speaker 1: Does she does Buffy the Vampire Slayer is big in

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Speaker 1: this conversation, so you can look forward to that too.

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Speaker 2: It's supernatural too. Yes, I think that's the first notification

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Speaker 2: of me knowing about shipping was of course Dusty l

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Speaker 2: But I was.

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Speaker 1: Like, what is that? Oh yeah, yes, yes, yes.

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Speaker 2: I feel like that's my theme phrase. What exactly?

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Speaker 1: Yes, I think so as Dragon Con approaches. I think

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Speaker 1: this will come out after Dragon Con. But one of

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Speaker 1: the first questions I would get sometimes from people when

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Speaker 1: I was dressed is the Winter Soldier would be are

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Speaker 1: you stucky or are you whatever the name is for

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Speaker 1: the Black Widow and Bucky ship which I can't remember

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Speaker 1: and ship yes.

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Speaker 2: Really, oh yes, I would have thought more Falcon and Bucky.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think after the show came out, because I

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Speaker 1: remember watching that being like, you guys are really leaning

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Speaker 1: into this sexual tension here, and a lot of people

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Speaker 1: texted me and were like, is this what you're talking

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Speaker 1: about with fan fiction? I was like, yeah, but I

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Speaker 1: hadn't at that point. I wasn't dressing as the Winner

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Speaker 1: Soldier anymore so much, but yeah, it's just funny to

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Speaker 1: me that people come up and that was what they

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Speaker 1: want to know is who ship?

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Speaker 2: Interesting?

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Speaker 1: And Okay, apparently the ship name for Catnus and Peta

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Speaker 1: from The Hunger Games is Penis.

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Speaker 2: What did you gotta do? Like that?

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Speaker 1: That's so true?

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Speaker 2: Why made up by people who did not want Peta

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Speaker 2: and Catinus to get together? They wanted was his name?

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Speaker 2: That is what I could so good at not knowing

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Speaker 2: any characters. I love that I sell like so old

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Speaker 2: and outdated because I can't remember a damn character.

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Speaker 1: And the funny thing is, you're so much better than

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Speaker 1: me at actors names. Yeah, I get so much better

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Speaker 1: at character. I can't remember the character. I know the act.

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Speaker 1: We were fitting together though.

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Speaker 2: This is this is why we are Okay, this is

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Speaker 2: a ship that I just finished the entire time, or

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Speaker 2: that you finished mine.

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Speaker 1: That's it kind of. I translate for you, you translate

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Speaker 1: for me.

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Speaker 2: It's beautiful.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if they pronounce it penis, but it's

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Speaker 1: pronounced Peter and Catness, so I feel like it's penis.

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Speaker 1: Somebody let me in, right and let me.

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Speaker 2: So the Gillness is the one that made this. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: ship name, I think Okay, Penis.

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Speaker 1: I hope that's true. That is very funny. Steve Rogers

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Speaker 1: and Tony Stark is Stony. I found this whole like

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Speaker 1: chart of the names and I was laughing so hard

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Speaker 1: it was great. That's pretty good Stony. I mean, come on.

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Speaker 1: People do get really excited about the smallest things when

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Speaker 1: they ship something or ship someone, and it'll be like, oh,

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Speaker 1: did you see that, Look you've seen me do this. Yes,

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Speaker 1: they're in love your honor. Oh. People will write essays

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Speaker 1: affording their theory. They write fan fiction, they make fan art,

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Speaker 1: they'll make predictions. They get invested. There are websites dedicated

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Speaker 1: to ships. There are websites dedicated to like anti ships.

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Speaker 1: People you don't want to go together. There are tumbler communities,

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Speaker 1: there are discords. That's one of my favorite tags and

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Speaker 1: fan fiction was whatever ship discord made me do it?

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Speaker 1: So yeah, people are into it. And also, yes, the

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Speaker 1: sex and subtext is a big joke, which they hit

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Speaker 1: they had on Supernatural they did. Oh, but that's basically

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Speaker 1: implying like you're kind of reading into the meta of

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Speaker 1: the whole thing. In my experience, in the fictional shipping world,

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Speaker 1: not celebrities, people largely ship two men. They're often two

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Speaker 1: white men, and often interviews the celebrities who play these characters.

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Speaker 1: Those interviews are used for evidence too, and they are

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Speaker 1: often asked who they ship.

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Speaker 2: Uh well, I did find it interesting that when it's

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Speaker 2: just shipping, it means two men automatically instead of just

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Speaker 2: two people, instead of and then having to be like

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Speaker 2: fimship And I was like, oh wait they had to

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Speaker 2: add that. Well that's interesting.

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Speaker 1: Well actually, okay, so I just got welled. Actually yeah

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Speaker 1: you did, Yeah you did. No, No, you're right, you're right.

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Speaker 1: But I didn't realize this. Once you account for non

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Speaker 1: fan fix specific fans bases, there are a lot more

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Speaker 1: hetero ships, so slash is a very fan fiction name.

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Speaker 2: Slash, not ship. Sorry.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, So Slash is very from fan fiction, and

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Speaker 1: I we've talked about the history of it before and

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Speaker 1: then fem slash comes from that. And I actually read

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Speaker 1: a really fascinating like nineteen ninety three what were those

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Speaker 1: called bulletin board you know, those like online bulletin boards faces. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: it was like a little short thing where someone was

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Speaker 1: saying she was making the point that people who were

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Speaker 1: so supportive of Slash weren't supportive of them Slash, and

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Speaker 1: it was really fascinating because she was like, I can

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Speaker 1: see you only support this one type of thing and

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Speaker 1: not this other thing, like that really upsets you, but

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Speaker 1: this doesn't. It was cool. It was cool.

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Speaker 2: That's interesting. I don't know, Like, again, I'm not in

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Speaker 2: part of this, but I'm very into the K drama world,

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Speaker 2: and in that same scope, they really love the bl

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Speaker 2: which we've talked about in the K drama episodes or

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Speaker 2: any typically any Asian episodes, which is like the title is,

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Speaker 2: it's not what it sounds like because in the US

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Speaker 2: we're like, what does that boy love? But essentially like

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Speaker 2: meant two men together, and that's kind of the entire

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Speaker 2: it's a whole genre, and they there's so much of

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Speaker 2: that way more than there's about two women, which I

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Speaker 2: thought was odd, but again, the people who are eating

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Speaker 2: up this content are typically women.

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Speaker 1: Mm hmm, yep, yep. You can see our fan fiction

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Speaker 1: episode for that. I think I also did one on

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Speaker 1: specifically on slash. But there's a lot of theories where

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Speaker 1: that is. There's actually like research papers and books about

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Speaker 1: It's interesting.

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Speaker 2: Is it carries over just like romances especially.

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Speaker 1: I did find many articles that reported how queer fan

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Speaker 1: fiction helps people come out realize they were queer, and

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Speaker 1: so this is a big part of like when you

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Speaker 1: start shipping and you're like, oh, this is queer relationship,

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Speaker 1: I'm shipping this, and then people be like, wait a minute,

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Speaker 1: let me think about this a bit more. Which speaking

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Speaker 1: of yeah, wow, this term is relatively recent. It was

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Speaker 1: first she used in nineteen ninety three in regards to

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Speaker 1: exiles fandom, which was my oh maybe I'm queer moment.

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Speaker 1: People have been doing this forever. I found really fun

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Speaker 1: examples from like Jane Austen, like Sherlock Holmes way back,

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Speaker 1: like it's really fascinating. However, the Internet and social media

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Speaker 1: really allowed for these ship communities to grow, for people

358
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Speaker 1: to find each other, but it also allowed for bad

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Speaker 1: behavior to be amplified and it has led to a

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Speaker 1: lot of Internet abuse. And interestingly, in the early days,

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00:20:35,359 --> 00:20:38,560
Speaker 1: shipping was mocked and looked down upon. Sometimes it was

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Speaker 1: even viewed as you saying, like something that you're all

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Speaker 1: enjoying is not perfect. Heaven forbid, Like you're not a

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Speaker 1: real fan because you're like wanting more. Maybe you're being weird.

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Speaker 1: And people who shipped would get email attacks or harassed.

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Speaker 1: But now it's definitely gone mainstream, and with that we

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Speaker 1: have a lot of issues and it's just funny to

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Speaker 1: me and looking back at this where I'm like, now

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Speaker 1: it's just you don't ship who I want you to ship,

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Speaker 1: gets say, the attacks and the harassment. But back then,

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Speaker 1: apparently people who ship forgetting that strange.

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Speaker 2: You've come a long way, baby.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes we have. But that brings us to shipping wars,

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Speaker 1: which is one of the biggest issues.

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Speaker 2: That's so literal. I'm like, you a ups shipping wars.

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Speaker 1: We should have had you do like your version of

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Speaker 1: what you thought this was, what this was, and compared it.

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00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:53,240
Speaker 1: It would have been great. So from teen Vogue and

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00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:56,880
Speaker 1: where they're shipping. There are ship wars aggressive in community

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00:21:56,920 --> 00:22:00,159
Speaker 1: beefs between fandom factions that focus on different ships the

381
00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:03,040
Speaker 1: same piece of media or fandom. Ship wars have a

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00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:06,520
Speaker 1: rich history of stirring up heightened emotion. Back when Buffy

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00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:09,399
Speaker 1: the Vampire Slayer dominated online fandom, one of the biggest

384
00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:13,520
Speaker 1: ship wars in fandom history revolved around Buffy's relationships with

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Speaker 1: two of the hottest and most toxic vampires this side

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Speaker 1: of the Vampire Diaries Extended Universe, Spike an Angel. Yes,

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Speaker 1: more on that in a second. Oh my gosh, I

388
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Speaker 1: did see Final Fantasy seven. I've talked about it on

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Speaker 1: a hear before, But the whole thing in that game

390
00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:37,440
Speaker 1: was based on decisions you made. You would end up

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Speaker 1: with one of like four people, but really two people,

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Speaker 1: Tifa and Earth, and people would pick sides like, obviously

393
00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:47,600
Speaker 1: he should have gone with Earth. Obviously he should have

394
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Speaker 1: gone with Tifa, and that was kind of programmed into

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Speaker 1: the game. That was like, there was this whole thing

396
00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:58,520
Speaker 1: where Earth died spoilers, but that game's really old, and

397
00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:01,399
Speaker 1: there was this both if you were nicer to her,

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Speaker 1: if you did all these things, if you were in

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00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:06,760
Speaker 1: a romantic relationship she would live, which she wouldn't, but

400
00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:10,240
Speaker 1: there was a belief so that she would. So people

401
00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:13,200
Speaker 1: really pick sides. Another big one is Team Edward versus

402
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:17,919
Speaker 1: Team Jacob from Why Yes And then I totally forgot

403
00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:20,639
Speaker 1: about this, but when I read about it, I was like,

404
00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:25,960
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, Yes, the Harmony Wars, the Harmonians. People

405
00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:29,159
Speaker 1: were so pissed, Samantha, Oh my gosh. There was a

406
00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:32,440
Speaker 1: whole live journal about killing off Ron Weasley in as

407
00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:35,360
Speaker 1: many ways as possible, because essentially this was people who

408
00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:37,440
Speaker 1: thought Harry and Hermione should be together.

409
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Speaker 2: Right, I mean people really hated on Jenny. You really

410
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:45,480
Speaker 2: hated Onny Oh, yes, poor actress.

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Speaker 1: Yes. So this was before a lot of this was happening,

412
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Speaker 1: as people were going online more. Harry Potter is still

413
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Speaker 1: one of the biggest fan communities fan fiction communities that exist.

414
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Speaker 1: And there was this big break between the Goblet of

415
00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:07,359
Speaker 1: Fire and Order of Phoenix and before that, like so

416
00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:10,720
Speaker 1: no one knew who was going to end up with whom,

417
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:14,280
Speaker 1: but people had all this time to speculate. So there

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00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:17,639
Speaker 1: was the Harmonians. The I think it was called the

419
00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:21,800
Speaker 1: USS Harmoniums. So it's like a ship anyway. So they

420
00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:24,760
Speaker 1: were like really adamant that this was how it was

421
00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:28,439
Speaker 1: going to go, And then JK. Rowling said in an interview, Oh, no,

422
00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:32,280
Speaker 1: it's definitely not that. And one of the interviewers said

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00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:36,600
Speaker 1: harmoniums were delusional and there's kind of laughter and all

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00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:41,560
Speaker 1: the stuff. JK. Rolling backtracked about it. She didn't attach

425
00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:47,120
Speaker 1: herself to the word delusional, but was also kind of like, yeah,

426
00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:51,200
Speaker 1: but she did say she thought she had dropped these

427
00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:54,040
Speaker 1: huge hints and that it was obvious who was going

428
00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:57,920
Speaker 1: to end up with whom from Claire McBride over at

429
00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:01,400
Speaker 1: sci Fi Wire, but even early the tension between these

430
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:04,480
Speaker 1: two factions ran hot. Sugar Quill, one of the first

431
00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:09,080
Speaker 1: Harry Potter specific FICK archives, refused to accept Harry Hermione

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00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:13,800
Speaker 1: fan fiction on the grounds that it was not cannon compliant. Interestingly,

433
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:17,199
Speaker 1: they accepted remiss Serious Fick as canon compliant because you

434
00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:21,160
Speaker 1: know it was, which may have contributed to the opening

435
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:26,760
Speaker 1: of Fiction Alley, which pointedly accepted all ships. Ship specific

436
00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:29,960
Speaker 1: fan sites and communities became the norm, allowing the factions

437
00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:33,720
Speaker 1: to more or less peaceably coexist, although the occasional battles

438
00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:37,400
Speaker 1: still happened up until this point. They trusted that they

439
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:41,560
Speaker 1: were correctly reading Rolling's larger plan, and that they were

440
00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:45,359
Speaker 1: the only ones doing so. They were heavily invested in

441
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:48,280
Speaker 1: not only the veracity of their ship, but the morality

442
00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:51,399
Speaker 1: of it, valuing a relationship built on friendship over what

443
00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:54,520
Speaker 1: they saw as a relationship built on conflicts, among many

444
00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:58,720
Speaker 1: other values they assigned to their ship. Because they'd invested

445
00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:02,320
Speaker 1: so heavily in this one ship, to the detriment of

446
00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:05,520
Speaker 1: making wider connections in fandom and developing a diverse interest

447
00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:09,160
Speaker 1: in the series, Rolling's revelation threatened to invalidate not only

448
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:13,120
Speaker 1: their ship but their fandom, so they turned their ire

449
00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:17,360
Speaker 1: on her. Harmonians began to openly insult Rolling, calling into

450
00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:21,119
Speaker 1: question her talent as a writer, denigrating her for being divorced,

451
00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:25,960
Speaker 1: and even insulting her personal appearance. One post even indulges

452
00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:29,440
Speaker 1: in some pearl clutching, wondering if the moral of ron

453
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:32,920
Speaker 1: slash Hermione is really one she wants to pass down

454
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:35,639
Speaker 1: to her daughters. The ship meant more to them than

455
00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:39,639
Speaker 1: the fandom did. This is the moment that birthed zero

456
00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:43,159
Speaker 1: sum shipping, a kind of blind game in ship that

457
00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:46,000
Speaker 1: only values as ship for whether or not it wins,

458
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:50,160
Speaker 1: not whether or not it is enjoyable. End of note.

459
00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:52,959
Speaker 1: This was pre Twitter, so this could have been a

460
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:53,800
Speaker 1: lot worse.

461
00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:57,080
Speaker 2: The battle.

462
00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:00,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, but it was funny because my mom had opinion

463
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:04,040
Speaker 1: on this. She obviously wasn't like Duke Naos, but she

464
00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:06,240
Speaker 1: thought it should have been her in her whining that.

465
00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:10,120
Speaker 1: I remember being like, oh, I don't.

466
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:11,959
Speaker 2: Know if I ever had an opinion on it, but

467
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:14,359
Speaker 2: it was like, yeah, it doesn't make as much sense,

468
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:17,640
Speaker 2: but I get it. Like the side characters, he has

469
00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:19,720
Speaker 2: his own trauma he doesn't really need. I think that

470
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:21,840
Speaker 2: was part, like he doesn't need a romance right now,

471
00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:23,160
Speaker 2: he's cut too much on his plate.

472
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:27,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, And my mom was very it was

473
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:28,920
Speaker 1: she was very blessed about it. But it was just

474
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:32,159
Speaker 1: funny because like normally she wouldn't even care have a

475
00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:34,119
Speaker 1: thought about it, but she did say that. I was like,

476
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:40,119
Speaker 1: oh yeah, but that kind of that morality that that

477
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:43,000
Speaker 1: writer mentioned is a key point of this, because there's

478
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:47,960
Speaker 1: this whole idea of like, my ship is better than yours, right, because,

479
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:51,080
Speaker 1: as I said, chips are not new. They've been around

480
00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:55,159
Speaker 1: since we've been telling stories and could have opinions, but

481
00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:59,560
Speaker 1: they have evolved. It used to be and still is largely,

482
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:03,800
Speaker 1: I would say, a fun thing. There are plenty, plenty

483
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:08,520
Speaker 1: the majority of people who can ship without being absolutely awful,

484
00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:11,840
Speaker 1: but it's gotten way more intense as where we are

485
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:15,439
Speaker 1: all online and now when someone believes they found the

486
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:20,000
Speaker 1: OTP the one true pairing, they think they are right,

487
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:24,040
Speaker 1: you are wrong, and it gets heated and outright hateful.

488
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:27,879
Speaker 1: Jamie described it as almost a religion. A part of

489
00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:31,639
Speaker 1: this is that you've interpreted the media in question correctly,

490
00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:36,720
Speaker 1: that there is just one right way, one correct pairing,

491
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:41,680
Speaker 1: and if that's not if they don't agree with someone,

492
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:44,680
Speaker 1: then they will shame people, harass people, shun people, docs

493
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:47,040
Speaker 1: people to swap people, even threatened creators.

494
00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:53,120
Speaker 2: How old are the ranges for people who are active

495
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:54,840
Speaker 2: on those kind of boards.

496
00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:00,760
Speaker 1: I mean, I think it depends on the specific site,

497
00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:03,160
Speaker 1: because I know we talked about this before. If fan

498
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:04,920
Speaker 1: fiction is like my forte, so that's what I know

499
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:08,240
Speaker 1: off the HEP my head, but like wpad is for

500
00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:13,760
Speaker 1: younger folks, there's another one that more younger people use.

501
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:16,160
Speaker 1: And then AO three and fanfic dot net are like

502
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:19,120
Speaker 1: older folks, And by that I mean I don't know,

503
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:20,200
Speaker 1: like my age.

504
00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:22,360
Speaker 2: Like what's the older mean?

505
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:26,680
Speaker 1: I mean it could go it's I think they're much

506
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:31,480
Speaker 1: more like I would say twenty five to forty, which

507
00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:34,560
Speaker 1: is okay. I think there's more outliers on that than

508
00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:37,440
Speaker 1: there aren't. Wpad I could be wrong, which I feel

509
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:38,840
Speaker 1: is much younger. Right.

510
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:41,960
Speaker 2: I just wondered, because you know, A that's a lot

511
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:45,800
Speaker 2: of time and effort to go after and debate with people.

512
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:48,480
Speaker 2: I knows people do that, like does it for any

513
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:52,560
Speaker 2: all subjects, But I find that interesting for fictional characters,

514
00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:56,040
Speaker 2: that level of love and passion, like you have to

515
00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:58,280
Speaker 2: have some time and dedication for that.

516
00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:01,479
Speaker 1: That's kind of part of the issue. It doesn't have

517
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:03,560
Speaker 1: to be an issue, but part of it is if

518
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:07,840
Speaker 1: it becomes like a consumed right all of your time,

519
00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:13,080
Speaker 1: and someone's telling you in your mind you're wrong, but

520
00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:15,200
Speaker 1: you've spent all this time on it, You've like looked

521
00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:19,400
Speaker 1: for all the clues, You've done all this digging and research,

522
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:23,280
Speaker 1: and so it's like you don't get it.

523
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:28,080
Speaker 2: I mean, I've seen you watch Star Wars and you're

524
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:30,160
Speaker 2: telling me your theories and me just going really and

525
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:31,800
Speaker 2: you go, wait, no, but this evidence.

526
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:35,240
Speaker 1: Well, see, the funny thing is I'm a multi shipper,

527
00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:38,200
Speaker 1: which is yes, I have a lot of ships, and

528
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:41,080
Speaker 1: so I can be like I can take evidence and

529
00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:43,400
Speaker 1: make my case for one couple, and then that same

530
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:48,840
Speaker 1: evidence I'll be like, disregard this couple though, which I

531
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:50,240
Speaker 1: think is a good way to be.

532
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:53,480
Speaker 2: So many times I heard do you see that stay

533
00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:54,840
Speaker 2: or do you see that look?

534
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:55,440
Speaker 1: Don't know?

535
00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:57,080
Speaker 2: No, you can't tell me.

536
00:30:57,400 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 1: People have written it about that look dat. I won't

537
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:03,040
Speaker 1: look at it. I'm not kidding people know.

538
00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:06,080
Speaker 2: I'm sure I can. I can picture. I picture it

539
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:08,520
Speaker 2: the moment you say it. I know what scene I'm

540
00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:12,840
Speaker 2: talking about, because you've done it every time. Yep, every time.

541
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 1: Oh yeah.

542
00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:17,440
Speaker 2: The dedication to that, I'm like, oh yeah, that's a look.

543
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:21,960
Speaker 1: It's a lot, but that's what it is. And that's

544
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:23,560
Speaker 1: like the fun part of it. Like when you can

545
00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:27,920
Speaker 1: just be like yeah and then you don't mind if

546
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:30,360
Speaker 1: someone does it agree with you.

547
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:33,080
Speaker 2: There was no disagreement. I was just the nod. You

548
00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:38,080
Speaker 2: get the nod from me like oh okay, yeah, yeah.

549
00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:38,840
Speaker 1: Now don't derail me because now I just want to

550
00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:39,440
Speaker 1: talk to that.

551
00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:44,000
Speaker 2: I have had look that you're having it like contemplating

552
00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:45,360
Speaker 2: do I go down this road.

553
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:48,720
Speaker 1: I've had more than one friend say I didn't see

554
00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:53,640
Speaker 1: it before, but now I see it.

555
00:31:55,080 --> 00:32:01,680
Speaker 2: That's right, okay.

556
00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:09,440
Speaker 1: But speaking of from that same article from sci Fi,

557
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 1: what was once the love of two characters dynamic has

558
00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:15,080
Speaker 1: become to a small but outspoken subsection of fans a

559
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:18,320
Speaker 1: zero sum game. How did we get from God, I

560
00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:21,880
Speaker 1: love seeing these two together to these two need to

561
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:26,080
Speaker 1: be together, So help me God? And this quote is

562
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 1: going back to that teen Vogue article, which I really recommend.

563
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:31,960
Speaker 1: I've been a part of several ship wars, never an

564
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:34,840
Speaker 1: active participant, really, just a member of ships that are

565
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:36,640
Speaker 1: fought over, and I think it all comes down to

566
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:40,600
Speaker 1: wanting to feel right. Fandom, especially fanfic, is all about

567
00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:44,200
Speaker 1: participating in and taking ownership of the material. Colleen, a

568
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:46,680
Speaker 1: pop culture nerd and scholar who made it through the

569
00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 1: Vultron fandom, shares with teen Vogue. Ship wars are caused

570
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:52,880
Speaker 1: by people wanting their ship to be the number one,

571
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:57,000
Speaker 1: correct ship, the only one, and even if it's not canon,

572
00:32:57,080 --> 00:33:02,160
Speaker 1: it's the one. So you see things like Katong versus Zutara,

573
00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:04,760
Speaker 1: where on the one hand, you have people arguing their

574
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:07,560
Speaker 1: ship is better because it's canon and it's sweet, and

575
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:10,880
Speaker 1: on the other hand arguing for tension and character development.

576
00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:13,800
Speaker 1: In that case, it's a matter of preference and power.

577
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:19,040
Speaker 1: Each ship slash fandom wants to be in charge. Yes,

578
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:22,880
Speaker 1: I think that's really interesting because we are going to

579
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:26,720
Speaker 1: discuss this more. But that whole like you go to

580
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:29,480
Speaker 1: fan fiction because you can't find the relationship you want

581
00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:32,080
Speaker 1: in canon or maybe they don't do it, and then

582
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:35,640
Speaker 1: what happens when it does become canon. But essentially what

583
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:38,680
Speaker 1: most of what I read is it comes down to

584
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:43,120
Speaker 1: this is the quote unquote healthier relationship versus the quote

585
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:48,640
Speaker 1: unquote unhealthier relationship, which is a for you know, debate.

586
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:54,200
Speaker 1: But yes, creators and celebrities get this abuse too, even

587
00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:57,280
Speaker 1: extending to real life relationships of celebrities. That's something we've

588
00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:01,120
Speaker 1: talked about before. Some creators have been black mailed in

589
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:03,640
Speaker 1: an attempt to force a ship and make it cannon.

590
00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:07,600
Speaker 1: Some have been forced off social media, and it gets nasty,

591
00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:12,800
Speaker 1: like people will tear people up who support the opposing ship.

592
00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:16,320
Speaker 1: Nay will claim that there's is the least problematic ship

593
00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:19,520
Speaker 1: while pointing out the problematic parts of the opposing ships

594
00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:21,560
Speaker 1: and people who ship them, Like it becomes like, well,

595
00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:23,640
Speaker 1: if you like this ship, then that means you're messed

596
00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:28,040
Speaker 1: up in this way. You're appear to slash goody two

597
00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:32,320
Speaker 1: shoes or you're actually a criminal. Then there is the

598
00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:36,320
Speaker 1: hate that is heaped onto the characters, as you mentioned

599
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:42,480
Speaker 1: with Jenny Weasley. Perhaps yeah, usually the cannon ship often

600
00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:46,640
Speaker 1: a woman who ruined your ship, and the person who

601
00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:52,360
Speaker 1: created them or played them, people who did ship with

602
00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:56,960
Speaker 1: these toxic fans. So if you're like shipping a ship

603
00:34:57,480 --> 00:34:59,600
Speaker 1: and then all these toxic fans come in, sometimes you

604
00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:02,000
Speaker 1: get forced that shit because you're like, well, right, he

605
00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:09,480
Speaker 1: ruined it. Sometimes the creators make it worse with their

606
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:13,080
Speaker 1: comments making fun of a ship or being queer baby.

607
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:19,160
Speaker 1: Often they have no idea how much fandom is behind

608
00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:22,560
Speaker 1: a ship. I would say not always, but I feel

609
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:24,360
Speaker 1: like a lot of the examples I wrote, I was like,

610
00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:30,600
Speaker 1: why did you say that? Which is a points to

611
00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:34,560
Speaker 1: an interesting disconnect between creators and their fans. MCU story

612
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:38,640
Speaker 1: editor Matthew Schancey, who's responsible for the what if Zombie episode,

613
00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:45,480
Speaker 1: which is that like Marvel, Kay Alternate Realities animated series,

614
00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:50,440
Speaker 1: reportedly wanted Zombie Captain America to bite off Sharon's lips

615
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:53,640
Speaker 1: and spit them out because quote, no one likes her.

616
00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:58,840
Speaker 1: Actually he belongs to Peggy, which he might have been joking.

617
00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:02,720
Speaker 1: Maybe not, but it does fuel these fights in his hate.

618
00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:06,000
Speaker 1: Perhaps he did it intentionally, Perhaps he did it, I

619
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:06,359
Speaker 1: don't know.

620
00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:09,000
Speaker 2: My only problem with that whole storyline was, wait, couldn't

621
00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:13,520
Speaker 2: he beat her grandfather now, a great uncle now or something?

622
00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:17,080
Speaker 2: This whole timeline thing, I'm like, this doesn't this doesn't

623
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:17,760
Speaker 2: bode well.

624
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:23,239
Speaker 1: I would say, I don't think the MCU has done

625
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:28,360
Speaker 1: a romance very well. Yes, I know some people disagree

626
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:29,920
Speaker 1: with me, but I don't think so.

627
00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:33,520
Speaker 2: I'm trying to think of a good wood.

628
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:37,520
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people would say like WandaVision,

629
00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:38,799
Speaker 1: but I actually don't think so.

630
00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:41,960
Speaker 2: They worked together and then she fell alone with a

631
00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:42,719
Speaker 2: make belief thing.

632
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:46,040
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, And that was my biggest hang up with

633
00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:47,839
Speaker 1: that show was is I was like, I just don't

634
00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:50,640
Speaker 1: buy your relationship because you just suddenly told me you

635
00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:52,759
Speaker 1: were dating and then he died.

636
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:57,680
Speaker 2: And it's also forced anyway from the Yeah maybe, oh,

637
00:36:57,719 --> 00:36:58,560
Speaker 2: I'm I gonna get hey for that.

638
00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:02,400
Speaker 1: It did did, but almost all the relationships in the

639
00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:07,279
Speaker 1: MCU felt very forced. Yeah, but anywhere anyway, we're gonna

640
00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:22,800
Speaker 1: get the right. There are even conspiracy theories that for

641
00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:25,280
Speaker 1: one reason or another something is cannon, but the creators

642
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:28,160
Speaker 1: cannot admit it like it is canon. They just can't

643
00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:31,320
Speaker 1: say it's candon a lot and this used to be

644
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:35,440
Speaker 1: a big thing in fan fiction, which is kind of

645
00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:37,200
Speaker 1: a lot of people brought up. Has kind of gone

646
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:42,279
Speaker 1: by the wayside. But it used to be like, oh,

647
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:44,759
Speaker 1: there was a certain tag for it, but it was like,

648
00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:50,439
Speaker 1: you know, uh, we were playing in our sandbox. Whatever

649
00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:53,120
Speaker 1: they do, that's the thing that we're playing in our sandbox,

650
00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:56,359
Speaker 1: whereas now it's become it's crossed the line into oh,

651
00:37:56,520 --> 00:37:58,640
Speaker 1: let's yell at them online. But it used to be

652
00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 1: much more like, Nope, that's that's the powers that be.

653
00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:05,759
Speaker 1: That's what it was, the powers that be. You you,

654
00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:08,040
Speaker 1: that's what they've decided and that's how it is. But

655
00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:10,719
Speaker 1: I'm going to play in this sandbox. But now it's

656
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:15,880
Speaker 1: become like it has to be can and which is

657
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:22,960
Speaker 1: part of this issue. Also, yes, we have talked about

658
00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:26,719
Speaker 1: celebrity shipping, which is essentially yeah, you just two real

659
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:31,040
Speaker 1: people are more than to real people. Again, but that

660
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:33,960
Speaker 1: usually like the unhealthy side of that is definitely that

661
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:38,200
Speaker 1: it has real world impacts. That impacts usually like the

662
00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:42,480
Speaker 1: celebrities new partner again is often a woman, and this

663
00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:47,799
Speaker 1: has resulted in people being forced off social media, celebrities

664
00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:50,400
Speaker 1: having to release statements asking for people to essentially not

665
00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:55,520
Speaker 1: harass their partner or their ex like post about mental

666
00:38:55,640 --> 00:39:01,640
Speaker 1: health and all of this. So that's definitely definitely. And then,

667
00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:07,480
Speaker 1: as Jamie said in the original suggestion for this, there

668
00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:12,440
Speaker 1: are some ships that are truly problematic. And from what

669
00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:15,160
Speaker 1: I've reads, as mentioned, a lot of shipboards do boil

670
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:18,319
Speaker 1: down to should person a who is torn between two

671
00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:20,640
Speaker 1: people go with the bad boy type or the good

672
00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:23,520
Speaker 1: guide type. And this is not It doesn't mean that

673
00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:27,000
Speaker 1: the good guys without problems. But I found out this

674
00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:30,920
Speaker 1: is known as Sinemon rule ships versus trash ships.

675
00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:34,880
Speaker 2: And I was like, oh, yes, trash ships.

676
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:39,560
Speaker 1: Huh trash ships? So from here's a quote about that

677
00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:44,360
Speaker 1: from Vox. For instance, a ship like Kylux Kylo Brinn

678
00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:47,440
Speaker 1: and the minor character Hucks and the Force Awakens might

679
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:49,680
Speaker 1: be labeled a trash ship because it's seen as a

680
00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:54,319
Speaker 1: representation of fandom's heavily white status quo your average ubiquitous

681
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:57,760
Speaker 1: white dude slash pairing and a ship like Ika Body

682
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:02,239
Speaker 1: That's fun name too, Nikabod Crane slash Abbey Mills on

683
00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:04,839
Speaker 1: Sleepy Hollow might be seen as a semin roll ship,

684
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:07,200
Speaker 1: both because of the puereness of their love and because

685
00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:09,479
Speaker 1: one of its members is a woman of color. Again,

686
00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:13,680
Speaker 1: this is this being fandom. These issues are very layered, controversial,

687
00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:17,000
Speaker 1: and complicated. So essentially, a trash ship is like a

688
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:21,080
Speaker 1: ship you ship even though you know it's bad, you

689
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:22,960
Speaker 1: know it's problematic, you know it's toxic.

690
00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:28,680
Speaker 2: So would be would this be the Buffy and Yes name?

691
00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:33,080
Speaker 1: Oh yes, Buffy and Bike. Yes, yes, I'm gonna talk

692
00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:34,320
Speaker 1: about that more in a second of so excited you

693
00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:34,600
Speaker 1: bought that?

694
00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:35,680
Speaker 2: Yes? Yes.

695
00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:39,200
Speaker 1: I did see some recent articles about multi shippers who

696
00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:42,680
Speaker 1: ship toxic, problematic ships and healthy, wholesome ones, and they

697
00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:47,680
Speaker 1: were saying, like, it's not mutually exclusive. Sometimes you're all happen.

698
00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:51,719
Speaker 1: Sometimes it just happens. It really does. Should people have like,

699
00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:58,279
Speaker 1: how did this happen? I never would have guessed. But

700
00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:04,799
Speaker 1: there are are also shippers for abusive relationships, for non

701
00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:11,240
Speaker 1: consensual slash manipulaty of controlling relationships, underage relationships with massive

702
00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:17,360
Speaker 1: age differences, incest, which is kind of complicated in terms

703
00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:21,680
Speaker 1: of fanfic because oh yeah, I don't really I don't

704
00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:23,600
Speaker 1: read it, but I think a lot of times there's

705
00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:26,320
Speaker 1: an understanding that we all know they aren't actually related.

706
00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:30,160
Speaker 1: Plus things like Game of Thrones, like I don't know.

707
00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:34,920
Speaker 2: Because that's the thing about super naturals, the brothers. What

708
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:35,920
Speaker 2: are you doing.

709
00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:42,560
Speaker 1: Wincest yep, oh, one day, I'll come back to that,

710
00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:45,799
Speaker 1: And I'll also come back to ABO, which I've talked

711
00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:48,000
Speaker 1: about before. We talked about it in our dot com

712
00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:53,839
Speaker 1: episode Best stands for Alpha Beta Omega, and it's kind

713
00:41:53,880 --> 00:42:05,280
Speaker 1: of like a secondary gender political biological type of writing

714
00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:08,359
Speaker 1: and relationship, and those are often very toxic, but they

715
00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:14,520
Speaker 1: also are interesting in how they explore gender politics. I

716
00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:16,040
Speaker 1: have a lot of thoughts about that as well, but

717
00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:19,840
Speaker 1: we won't go into them now because that would be

718
00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:22,680
Speaker 1: a whole episode. But there's a lot of shipping in

719
00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:34,280
Speaker 1: that realm that's pretty pretty problematic. Yeah, then, as mentioned earlier,

720
00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:34,920
Speaker 1: wrong shipping.

721
00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:39,200
Speaker 2: I'm just laughing about so many things right now.

722
00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:44,239
Speaker 1: Yes, So back to that fan lore wiki article. When

723
00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:46,760
Speaker 1: a fan ships two characters who really shouldn't be together,

724
00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:49,960
Speaker 1: they are wrong shipping. Wrong shipping isn't a judgment made

725
00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:53,080
Speaker 1: about a fan of shipping preferences, but the recognition that

726
00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:56,000
Speaker 1: the characters in question would be a hot mess together.

727
00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:59,759
Speaker 1: Wrong shipping can also be used when the fan is

728
00:42:59,840 --> 00:43:02,760
Speaker 1: in support of a pairing other than the cannon of TP.

729
00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:08,319
Speaker 1: So this is sort of like, yeah, they won't gotcha.

730
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:10,719
Speaker 2: So I'm gonna assume from now on, I'm on, I'm

731
00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:13,759
Speaker 2: not on this, which I assume from the beginning, which

732
00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:15,360
Speaker 2: you were like you got some parts, I was like.

733
00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:18,239
Speaker 1: Why, well, I put a minute in it.

734
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:21,120
Speaker 2: I was just like, well, because I like me saying

735
00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:22,640
Speaker 2: that would be so out of context. I have no

736
00:43:22,719 --> 00:43:27,879
Speaker 2: idea why I'm saying this. I got it, So I'm

737
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:29,920
Speaker 2: just I'm just gonna go with that. So I'm like, yeah,

738
00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:31,760
Speaker 2: I have no idea what that just happened.

739
00:43:32,920 --> 00:43:34,840
Speaker 1: That's that's what it's like when you get in the

740
00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:37,920
Speaker 1: world of shipping, some man, you get lost lost in

741
00:43:38,040 --> 00:43:42,400
Speaker 1: the shipping, and then related that at the top, I

742
00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:50,920
Speaker 1: mentioned like antis non romos, no romos. Actually this is

743
00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:55,560
Speaker 1: sort of different because there's a difference between people who

744
00:43:55,640 --> 00:43:58,160
Speaker 1: don't want any ship, like maybe they just don't want romance,

745
00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:03,880
Speaker 1: versus people who actively don't want a certain ship, and

746
00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:06,320
Speaker 1: they have gotten in on this toxicity too. And I

747
00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:10,920
Speaker 1: found this quote from geek Dad. The most aggressive of

748
00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:13,560
Speaker 1: the bunch is a new subset of shippers, collectively known

749
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:17,319
Speaker 1: as ANTIS, from the practice of tacking things anti ship

750
00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:21,080
Speaker 1: name on social media. It's a term these toxic members

751
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:24,760
Speaker 1: of fandom. We're proudly despite its association with combative behavior,

752
00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:28,120
Speaker 1: ANTIS appear to be a response to, among other factors,

753
00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:31,960
Speaker 1: changes in how fans interact online. As fans move from

754
00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:35,920
Speaker 1: sites like live journal where content was opt in, to Tumblr,

755
00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:39,640
Speaker 1: where content is opped out, the method in which fans

756
00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:43,960
Speaker 1: consumed content changed thanks to ANTIS. The old adage of

757
00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:48,520
Speaker 1: early fandom don't like, don't read yep or the idea

758
00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:51,480
Speaker 1: that consumers are responsible for avoiding content they don't like,

759
00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:57,680
Speaker 1: has been replaced with discourse, death threats, and violence. Discussions

760
00:44:57,719 --> 00:45:01,760
Speaker 1: shifted from I don't like this too, no one should

761
00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:05,640
Speaker 1: like this. This often involves moral arguments. It's sort of

762
00:45:05,719 --> 00:45:08,480
Speaker 1: devolved into I can morally prove you're a terrible person

763
00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:11,680
Speaker 1: for this ship to destroy it. I thought that was

764
00:45:11,719 --> 00:45:15,760
Speaker 1: so interesting because we've talked before. I love the history

765
00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:22,200
Speaker 1: of how those technologies impact right our discourse, and in

766
00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:25,640
Speaker 1: this case, I didn't know that that's really cool. I

767
00:45:25,719 --> 00:45:27,560
Speaker 1: mean not cool, but like I'm glad to know it.

768
00:45:28,480 --> 00:45:31,239
Speaker 1: You can on a three, you can be like I

769
00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:33,640
Speaker 1: don't want this ship to show up, but it doesn't

770
00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:39,080
Speaker 1: like populate like how Tumblr it would be like you

771
00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:41,560
Speaker 1: find all of this stuff that's like I hate this ship.

772
00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:46,040
Speaker 1: It's more like than that ship just won't show up. Yeah,

773
00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:50,040
Speaker 1: the quote goes on. Anti arguments may shift over time,

774
00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:53,240
Speaker 1: but the critical thing to note is one competing popular

775
00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:56,880
Speaker 1: pairings pairings that share characters with the anti favored pairing

776
00:45:57,320 --> 00:46:01,400
Speaker 1: are always problematic, and two, the anti preferred pairing is

777
00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:04,760
Speaker 1: never problematic. If you take nothing else from this article,

778
00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:09,000
Speaker 1: please take this All. This outrage isn't about protecting children,

779
00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:12,919
Speaker 1: or about morality or about critiquing media. It's about people

780
00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:18,439
Speaker 1: wanting their favorite characters to kiss. It's true. It's so true, though,

781
00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:21,919
Speaker 1: because it is, it gets real nasty the things people

782
00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:26,960
Speaker 1: will say about like why your ship is awful? But

783
00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:30,160
Speaker 1: really it does come down to really just one of

784
00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:31,680
Speaker 1: these these people kiss.

785
00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:34,000
Speaker 2: It kind of reminds me of the thirty Rock episode

786
00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:37,840
Speaker 2: in which the daughter of the owner of the company

787
00:46:38,239 --> 00:46:41,399
Speaker 2: it just really likes soap operas, and she's because the ship.

788
00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:44,920
Speaker 2: There was a whole ship with Tina's face character and

789
00:46:45,760 --> 00:46:48,480
Speaker 2: Alec Paula's character. Again, I don't remember the character's names,

790
00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:52,279
Speaker 2: any of their characters. And then and then so like

791
00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:55,080
Speaker 2: they played up going kiss kiss kiss, and they're like, Nope,

792
00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:57,320
Speaker 2: forge't doing this because I chatted it, but like we

793
00:46:57,480 --> 00:47:00,560
Speaker 2: know there actually was a shipping for doing them to

794
00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:02,640
Speaker 2: be together for a while, which is a.

795
00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:07,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, it's funny. One of the stories I'm reading

796
00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:12,360
Speaker 1: right now, the author left a you can read the

797
00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:15,920
Speaker 1: notes at the ends, and they just wrote make it

798
00:47:16,160 --> 00:47:19,040
Speaker 1: like smashing their faces together like two barbies, And I

799
00:47:19,160 --> 00:47:29,319
Speaker 1: was like, I mean, essentially, the quot continues. Despite all

800
00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:32,520
Speaker 1: of this negativity, I believe fandom is an incredibly positive thing.

801
00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:34,719
Speaker 1: I'm gay and the first time I ever saw a

802
00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:37,319
Speaker 1: gay character and a story was in fan fiction. Fan

803
00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:39,360
Speaker 1: Fiction gave me stories about people like me when I

804
00:47:39,400 --> 00:47:42,080
Speaker 1: couldn't find them anywhere else. That is the power of

805
00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:45,640
Speaker 1: transformative media like fanfic and fan art in a world

806
00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:47,759
Speaker 1: where so many people don't get to see themselves on TV.

807
00:47:48,239 --> 00:47:50,360
Speaker 1: Fandom can offer them a place where they can be

808
00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:52,760
Speaker 1: the hero of the story they know and love. Fantom

809
00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:56,720
Speaker 1: enables anyone to create with an established world. It enables

810
00:47:56,760 --> 00:47:59,240
Speaker 1: writers to create stories that go beyond the canon media

811
00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:02,120
Speaker 1: and give artists the power to explore new scenes and

812
00:48:02,239 --> 00:48:05,520
Speaker 1: what ifs. There are thousands of people right now creating

813
00:48:05,560 --> 00:48:10,960
Speaker 1: this content for free simply because they enjoy it, and

814
00:48:11,080 --> 00:48:13,560
Speaker 1: I do think that's I always try to make this

815
00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:17,320
Speaker 1: point because there's critiquing media is healthy. We all like

816
00:48:17,400 --> 00:48:19,840
Speaker 1: problematic things, but there's a way to do that healthily.

817
00:48:19,920 --> 00:48:22,360
Speaker 1: There's a way to do that without threatening people or

818
00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:28,440
Speaker 1: yelling at people for asking people. And it's funny to

819
00:48:28,600 --> 00:48:34,799
Speaker 1: me the ways technology like this all started as sort

820
00:48:34,840 --> 00:48:39,600
Speaker 1: of an attempt to better control content searches on Tumblr.

821
00:48:39,680 --> 00:48:41,040
Speaker 1: So when they were like you can put in this

822
00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:46,040
Speaker 1: anti whatever tag, it was they were trying to clamp

823
00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:50,440
Speaker 1: down on like bad behavior, honestly, but then it led

824
00:48:50,480 --> 00:48:56,960
Speaker 1: to this. So that's just interesting to me. And also

825
00:48:57,880 --> 00:48:59,759
Speaker 1: back to what you were saying, when it becomes a

826
00:48:59,800 --> 00:49:06,759
Speaker 1: part of your identity and then that it becomes so

827
00:49:06,920 --> 00:49:12,400
Speaker 1: personal and it just you can't see anything else like

828
00:49:12,520 --> 00:49:15,440
Speaker 1: this is it has to be this way because it's

829
00:49:15,480 --> 00:49:21,480
Speaker 1: so important to me. Another thing that Jamie brought up

830
00:49:21,960 --> 00:49:26,400
Speaker 1: was this sort of forcing of romance, or this prioritizing

831
00:49:26,480 --> 00:49:31,440
Speaker 1: of romance. And I talked about this recently because yes,

832
00:49:31,560 --> 00:49:42,960
Speaker 1: I have been posting fan fiction, and but there is

833
00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:49,200
Speaker 1: this I found myself writing romance, and I actually it's

834
00:49:49,360 --> 00:49:51,399
Speaker 1: like really sweet romance, which I think makes sense. It's

835
00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:54,719
Speaker 1: much more like holding hands type of romance and anything else.

836
00:49:54,760 --> 00:49:58,440
Speaker 1: But but I did get in my head about like

837
00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:03,719
Speaker 1: it just feels so much of what I read that romance,

838
00:50:04,719 --> 00:50:08,840
Speaker 1: romantic love is seen as more powerful love, like the

839
00:50:08,920 --> 00:50:13,239
Speaker 1: most powerful love as compared to friendship. And so it

840
00:50:13,320 --> 00:50:17,520
Speaker 1: can be strange when you're reading all this stuff like that,

841
00:50:17,680 --> 00:50:23,239
Speaker 1: you're writing stuff like that and you're asexual, you know,

842
00:50:23,960 --> 00:50:29,280
Speaker 1: Like I have found, especially within the past couple of years,

843
00:50:29,920 --> 00:50:33,760
Speaker 1: a lot more depictions of asexual characters and even asexual

844
00:50:33,920 --> 00:50:37,879
Speaker 1: romances where you know, they have the talk and they're like, yeah,

845
00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:39,960
Speaker 1: just like kissing but nothing more, and they're like, okay, cool.

846
00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:47,800
Speaker 1: And I have seen more non sexual relationships, but a

847
00:50:47,840 --> 00:50:49,680
Speaker 1: lot of times that's what it is, like a good

848
00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:52,400
Speaker 1: amount of times, like maybe not the whole thing but

849
00:50:52,800 --> 00:50:55,960
Speaker 1: it's in there somewhere. And as we've discussed before, there's

850
00:50:56,000 --> 00:51:01,839
Speaker 1: also that strange tight rope of for so long women

851
00:51:01,920 --> 00:51:04,320
Speaker 1: have been shamed for wanting sex, and so I'm like, embraces,

852
00:51:04,400 --> 00:51:07,200
Speaker 1: embrace it, but also at the same time, it doesn't

853
00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:10,200
Speaker 1: have to be that for everybody, So it's sort of

854
00:51:10,440 --> 00:51:15,920
Speaker 1: strange there. And I've also been thinking about this too,

855
00:51:16,040 --> 00:51:20,879
Speaker 1: of this understanding that everyone sees romance the same way

856
00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:23,640
Speaker 1: or they must all want it, which isn't true. And

857
00:51:23,719 --> 00:51:25,200
Speaker 1: I think that comes up a lot of times in

858
00:51:25,239 --> 00:51:29,160
Speaker 1: shipping wars, because if you're finding like your evidence, not

859
00:51:29,239 --> 00:51:31,279
Speaker 1: everybody sees that evidence the same way, you know what

860
00:51:31,320 --> 00:51:34,359
Speaker 1: I mean, Like even if like you don't agree, right,

861
00:51:34,840 --> 00:51:37,440
Speaker 1: but like some people might see something as romantic and

862
00:51:37,560 --> 00:51:40,319
Speaker 1: other people might see it's like not romantic at all. Yeah,

863
00:51:40,560 --> 00:51:44,080
Speaker 1: So there's that difference too. And I do think this

864
00:51:44,239 --> 00:51:47,960
Speaker 1: is tricky because I've heard before this argument why can't

865
00:51:48,000 --> 00:51:50,840
Speaker 1: they just be friends, especially between two men who have

866
00:51:51,040 --> 00:51:53,680
Speaker 1: just a close relationship, Why does it have to be romantic?

867
00:51:53,920 --> 00:51:56,720
Speaker 1: And I think that it speaks to a couple of things.

868
00:51:56,880 --> 00:51:59,680
Speaker 1: The fact that we put men in a box where

869
00:51:59,680 --> 00:52:03,280
Speaker 1: they can't be emotionally vulnerable with other men are physically affectionate,

870
00:52:03,360 --> 00:52:06,560
Speaker 1: so that's like, look at how they're being so emotionally vulnerable,

871
00:52:06,560 --> 00:52:08,879
Speaker 1: they must be in love. And the fact that women

872
00:52:08,920 --> 00:52:12,880
Speaker 1: are always through romantic interest in so much of media,

873
00:52:13,640 --> 00:52:16,040
Speaker 1: and the fact that we don't have enough queer storylines

874
00:52:16,920 --> 00:52:20,480
Speaker 1: in mainstream media, especially front center. So it's sort of like,

875
00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:25,960
Speaker 1: as we say so often, we just need more representative,

876
00:52:26,040 --> 00:52:29,760
Speaker 1: diverse stories, so we're not always like, it's so desperate

877
00:52:29,800 --> 00:52:32,520
Speaker 1: for this queer story though, can't it be them? But

878
00:52:32,680 --> 00:52:40,200
Speaker 1: also have platonic relationships. And then there's been arguments about

879
00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:46,720
Speaker 1: fetishizing homosexuality in that way too, which is certainly certainly

880
00:52:46,880 --> 00:52:51,000
Speaker 1: a part of it. And then this is sort of

881
00:52:51,040 --> 00:52:53,000
Speaker 1: a separate issue, but I want to mention it when

882
00:52:53,040 --> 00:52:57,520
Speaker 1: the media reports on this, especially fan fiction, they find

883
00:52:57,560 --> 00:53:01,360
Speaker 1: the most bizarre fan fiction. I I'm almost always like,

884
00:53:01,440 --> 00:53:04,560
Speaker 1: I think you might actually read fan fiction because you

885
00:53:04,719 --> 00:53:08,360
Speaker 1: have plumbed the depths, you found something, You've found something,

886
00:53:08,680 --> 00:53:11,960
Speaker 1: And I read a lot and I have never seen

887
00:53:12,040 --> 00:53:17,239
Speaker 1: this and either make fun of it for celebrities to

888
00:53:17,360 --> 00:53:20,759
Speaker 1: read it, or frame it as this depravity of young

889
00:53:20,840 --> 00:53:22,920
Speaker 1: girls and make an argument about why we need to

890
00:53:23,000 --> 00:53:26,880
Speaker 1: censor things, so that a lot of times with shipping

891
00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:29,759
Speaker 1: wars and gets in the news and they're reading fan

892
00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:32,719
Speaker 1: fiction and it's like the wildest thing I've ever heard,

893
00:53:34,840 --> 00:53:49,560
Speaker 1: and I've read some stuff. Oh and this was about

894
00:53:49,560 --> 00:53:53,279
Speaker 1: a specific incident where it was at a convention and

895
00:53:53,400 --> 00:53:56,520
Speaker 1: a fan at is a supernatural convention. I think the

896
00:53:56,600 --> 00:54:01,440
Speaker 1: fan got up to ask about I don't know, but

897
00:54:01,640 --> 00:54:04,719
Speaker 1: everyone thought they were going to ask about shipping. No,

898
00:54:05,360 --> 00:54:07,480
Speaker 1: it wasn't that. They later found this fan and it

899
00:54:07,560 --> 00:54:11,879
Speaker 1: wasn't that, but that's what everyone thought, and they got

900
00:54:12,320 --> 00:54:13,920
Speaker 1: removed by security.

901
00:54:14,080 --> 00:54:16,800
Speaker 2: Even before they could ask the question. M wow.

902
00:54:17,640 --> 00:54:19,800
Speaker 1: Yes, And so here's a quote from hyperbole about that

903
00:54:20,800 --> 00:54:23,320
Speaker 1: what is so horrible about slash shipping and asking the

904
00:54:23,360 --> 00:54:26,480
Speaker 1: actors about it? Why should asking Aqules about whether Dean

905
00:54:26,560 --> 00:54:29,160
Speaker 1: might possibly have feelings for Castiel be more taboo than

906
00:54:29,200 --> 00:54:32,279
Speaker 1: asking him about Dean slash Lisa, whether he thinks Dean

907
00:54:32,320 --> 00:54:33,640
Speaker 1: should die at the end of the series, or what

908
00:54:33,760 --> 00:54:36,600
Speaker 1: his favorite moment filming season eight was. For those who

909
00:54:36,680 --> 00:54:39,520
Speaker 1: claim that they've been asked about slash shiping a million

910
00:54:39,640 --> 00:54:42,839
Speaker 1: times and that it just makes everyone uncomfortable, this might

911
00:54:42,880 --> 00:54:45,239
Speaker 1: be the case, sure, but these guys do like twenty

912
00:54:45,320 --> 00:54:48,040
Speaker 1: conventions a year. Do you really think that there's one

913
00:54:48,160 --> 00:54:51,319
Speaker 1: single question which you could possibly ask them which they

914
00:54:51,440 --> 00:54:54,080
Speaker 1: haven't had to answer at least a dozen times before.

915
00:54:54,560 --> 00:54:56,880
Speaker 1: The difference seems to be that some fans believe it

916
00:54:57,040 --> 00:54:59,799
Speaker 1: is harassment to force the actors to confront the possibility

917
00:54:59,840 --> 00:55:03,640
Speaker 1: that their characters might be homosexual, So singling out slash

918
00:55:03,680 --> 00:55:06,200
Speaker 1: shipping or shipping in general, when there is so much

919
00:55:06,280 --> 00:55:08,160
Speaker 1: more that might be awkward for the actors to be

920
00:55:08,239 --> 00:55:11,840
Speaker 1: confronted with. That is problematic whether you're an actor, a creator,

921
00:55:11,920 --> 00:55:13,840
Speaker 1: or a fan. I have to question the logic that

922
00:55:13,920 --> 00:55:16,160
Speaker 1: slash shipping is cool as long as we don't talk

923
00:55:16,200 --> 00:55:20,920
Speaker 1: about it, don't ask, don't tell really Fantom, which was

924
00:55:20,960 --> 00:55:25,040
Speaker 1: a good point. I do hate going to these like

925
00:55:25,239 --> 00:55:27,680
Speaker 1: Q and A things because it's always like, what are

926
00:55:27,719 --> 00:55:29,640
Speaker 1: they going to ask? But it's true they've heard these

927
00:55:29,719 --> 00:55:34,640
Speaker 1: questions like a million times. It's not like an original question.

928
00:55:34,680 --> 00:55:36,520
Speaker 1: I went and saw one actor once and he just

929
00:55:36,800 --> 00:55:38,880
Speaker 1: was like, I'm not going to do the Q and

930
00:55:38,920 --> 00:55:40,480
Speaker 1: A because I hear the same questions all the time,

931
00:55:40,520 --> 00:55:42,920
Speaker 1: and he just went down a list of questions and answer.

932
00:55:46,360 --> 00:55:48,920
Speaker 2: I was like, yeah, probably you would know Yeah.

933
00:55:50,160 --> 00:55:54,239
Speaker 1: And then from Vox here's a quote conflating ships that

934
00:55:54,320 --> 00:55:58,200
Speaker 1: involve underrepresentative identities with the desire for inclusion gets especially

935
00:55:58,239 --> 00:56:00,719
Speaker 1: dicey when it leads fans to priority ties support for

936
00:56:00,800 --> 00:56:05,040
Speaker 1: their ship over other intersectional concerns. For example, and teen

937
00:56:05,080 --> 00:56:08,720
Speaker 1: Will fandom fans of the Steric ship Derek slash Styles

938
00:56:09,440 --> 00:56:12,200
Speaker 1: have frequently accused the show of queer baiting or exploiting

939
00:56:12,239 --> 00:56:15,600
Speaker 1: their specific queer male pairing without any intention of following

940
00:56:15,680 --> 00:56:18,280
Speaker 1: through on it, even though the show's creator, Jeff Davis,

941
00:56:18,400 --> 00:56:20,919
Speaker 1: is a gay man who has already inserted several queer

942
00:56:20,960 --> 00:56:24,719
Speaker 1: relationships in the show storylines, and even though Steric as

943
00:56:24,760 --> 00:56:28,799
Speaker 1: it currently exists in canon is a physically abusive relationship.

944
00:56:29,080 --> 00:56:31,640
Speaker 1: The prioritization of a ship at the expense of another

945
00:56:31,760 --> 00:56:35,879
Speaker 1: intersectionality concerns is also present on The one hundred, which

946
00:56:35,920 --> 00:56:39,239
Speaker 1: earlier this year featured a queer canonical relationship between main

947
00:56:39,360 --> 00:56:43,640
Speaker 1: character Clark and the warrior queen Lexa aka Klexa. Klexa

948
00:56:43,719 --> 00:56:47,200
Speaker 1: fans have been so focused on advocating for Klexa even

949
00:56:47,320 --> 00:56:50,800
Speaker 1: after the ship effectively ended with Lexa's untimely death, that

950
00:56:50,920 --> 00:56:53,600
Speaker 1: they've come under fire for ignoring the many elements of

951
00:56:53,680 --> 00:56:58,160
Speaker 1: the show that some feels are racist and problematic. Yeah,

952
00:56:59,080 --> 00:57:00,920
Speaker 1: I think that's a it's a really good point as well,

953
00:57:00,960 --> 00:57:05,600
Speaker 1: because when you when you're just attacking people who don't

954
00:57:05,680 --> 00:57:10,000
Speaker 1: like your ship and you're not thinking of anything else,

955
00:57:11,320 --> 00:57:13,000
Speaker 1: it's not a good look. It's not a good look.

956
00:57:14,080 --> 00:57:14,279
Speaker 2: Yeah.

957
00:57:14,960 --> 00:57:18,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, As sort of wrap up here, I did mention

958
00:57:18,280 --> 00:57:22,600
Speaker 1: I was gonna say my thoughts. So I I do ship,

959
00:57:22,760 --> 00:57:26,920
Speaker 1: even though I am an ace ace person, but a

960
00:57:27,000 --> 00:57:30,000
Speaker 1: lot of times I ship. I found a really fun

961
00:57:30,160 --> 00:57:33,439
Speaker 1: article about the fun of shipping No One someone who's

962
00:57:33,440 --> 00:57:36,160
Speaker 1: never gonna end up together. It's kind of nice. You're

963
00:57:36,240 --> 00:57:39,920
Speaker 1: kind of like you find your little niche fandom of

964
00:57:40,080 --> 00:57:42,720
Speaker 1: all of your your like online friends we will never

965
00:57:42,760 --> 00:57:45,120
Speaker 1: meet or talk to, but you're kind of like we're

966
00:57:45,240 --> 00:57:47,440
Speaker 1: the ones that, like the ship that we know is

967
00:57:47,520 --> 00:57:49,320
Speaker 1: never going to be cannon. We never once thought it

968
00:57:49,400 --> 00:57:53,120
Speaker 1: would be like, it's just no chance of it. And

969
00:57:54,320 --> 00:57:59,040
Speaker 1: I think there has been a couple of things I've

970
00:57:59,120 --> 00:58:01,400
Speaker 1: shipped where people people have gotten upset. They're like, I

971
00:58:01,480 --> 00:58:04,520
Speaker 1: can't believe I thought they would end up together. And

972
00:58:04,600 --> 00:58:08,480
Speaker 1: sometimes I'm honestly so surprised. I'm like, you really, I

973
00:58:08,680 --> 00:58:11,560
Speaker 1: never actually thought this was gonna happen, but you did, eh,

974
00:58:12,040 --> 00:58:15,120
Speaker 1: And I get I feel bad. It does suck when

975
00:58:15,120 --> 00:58:17,120
Speaker 1: you're like, oh, that didn't go how I wanted it

976
00:58:17,200 --> 00:58:21,200
Speaker 1: to go. But also, as we've been talking about, sometimes

977
00:58:21,280 --> 00:58:25,080
Speaker 1: fans do regret when their ship happens, like with Buffy

978
00:58:25,200 --> 00:58:28,360
Speaker 1: and Spike and you know, like a tempted rape that

979
00:58:28,560 --> 00:58:32,640
Speaker 1: happened in their relationship, and sometimes the ship happens and

980
00:58:32,720 --> 00:58:36,200
Speaker 1: they break up or they're killed off, Like it's not

981
00:58:36,400 --> 00:58:41,560
Speaker 1: like if your ship does become cannon, everything's going to

982
00:58:41,600 --> 00:58:44,480
Speaker 1: be the best thing and the happiest thing. And I think,

983
00:58:44,920 --> 00:58:48,160
Speaker 1: like going back to like not trusting the creators, I

984
00:58:48,520 --> 00:58:50,200
Speaker 1: just have been hurt so hard. It's not that I

985
00:58:50,240 --> 00:58:51,640
Speaker 1: don't trust them, but I'm like, yeoh, I'm gonna be

986
00:58:51,720 --> 00:58:53,400
Speaker 1: much happier if i just do this in my own

987
00:58:53,880 --> 00:58:59,520
Speaker 1: world and it doesn't become right. I don't need your

988
00:58:59,640 --> 00:59:03,320
Speaker 1: drum and your studios and fluencing, miss, I just will

989
00:59:03,800 --> 00:59:13,600
Speaker 1: go over here and be let be. And sometimes it's

990
00:59:13,680 --> 00:59:15,800
Speaker 1: not about that either. It's about what fans believe they

991
00:59:16,040 --> 00:59:20,800
Speaker 1: should have gotten. Canon romances are often looked down upon,

992
00:59:22,760 --> 00:59:26,360
Speaker 1: and there are people who feel like me and maybe

993
00:59:26,400 --> 00:59:28,600
Speaker 1: want a ship to happen, but ultimately don't want that

994
00:59:28,760 --> 00:59:31,320
Speaker 1: entertainment in question to really change. So like you don't

995
00:59:31,320 --> 00:59:35,440
Speaker 1: want it to become a rom com suddenly, but you

996
00:59:35,560 --> 00:59:38,000
Speaker 1: kind of don't want the relationship to happen, but you

997
00:59:38,080 --> 00:59:42,080
Speaker 1: have fun imagining it and sharing it with others. And yes,

998
00:59:42,200 --> 00:59:45,160
Speaker 1: it can be lonely to ship someone barely anyone else does,

999
00:59:45,360 --> 00:59:47,840
Speaker 1: but it can be very fun. Can be very fun.

1000
00:59:49,000 --> 00:59:52,640
Speaker 1: Here's another quote from teen Vogue. Shipping oriented fandom is

1001
00:59:52,680 --> 00:59:55,480
Speaker 1: all about transformation for many shippers. The pairings we put

1002
00:59:55,520 --> 00:59:58,320
Speaker 1: together in fandom are that come together in a series

1003
00:59:58,480 --> 01:00:01,040
Speaker 1: or on a gossip site, are the first time many

1004
01:00:01,080 --> 01:00:03,600
Speaker 1: of us get to see ourselves and relationships that echo

1005
01:00:03,720 --> 01:00:06,400
Speaker 1: the ones we have, whether it's a queer ships as

1006
01:00:06,440 --> 01:00:09,360
Speaker 1: a gateway to understanding your own identity, or fans of

1007
01:00:09,400 --> 01:00:12,400
Speaker 1: color or highlighting ships that center characters of color. The

1008
01:00:12,480 --> 01:00:14,840
Speaker 1: goal of shipping has been to fill gaps and provide

1009
01:00:14,920 --> 01:00:18,520
Speaker 1: room for fans to play with emotional connections from box.

1010
01:00:19,480 --> 01:00:22,520
Speaker 1: For fans feeling fatigue over an imbattle, struggle to make

1011
01:00:22,560 --> 01:00:25,680
Speaker 1: a ship cannon, and the crushing disappointment of setbacks or failure,

1012
01:00:26,000 --> 01:00:27,960
Speaker 1: it might help to remember that ships don't have to

1013
01:00:28,000 --> 01:00:30,760
Speaker 1: be cannon in order to be transformative and meaningful on

1014
01:00:30,920 --> 01:00:34,000
Speaker 1: both a personal and cultural level. Look at Star Trek's

1015
01:00:34,200 --> 01:00:38,720
Speaker 1: Kirk slash Spock Sperk. That ship never became cannon, but

1016
01:00:38,840 --> 01:00:41,360
Speaker 1: it remains one of the most compelling ships ever created,

1017
01:00:41,840 --> 01:00:44,240
Speaker 1: and within cannon, it gave us one of pop culture's

1018
01:00:44,320 --> 01:00:47,640
Speaker 1: most enduring symbols of love. There are hands touching through

1019
01:00:47,760 --> 01:00:52,200
Speaker 1: the glass. Henry Jenkins famously said that queer fan fiction

1020
01:00:52,760 --> 01:00:55,760
Speaker 1: is what happens when you take away the glass. And sure,

1021
01:00:55,800 --> 01:00:58,840
Speaker 1: it's increasingly possible that savvy creators might go ahead and

1022
01:00:58,920 --> 01:01:01,360
Speaker 1: take away the glass for us, but that doesn't negate

1023
01:01:01,400 --> 01:01:03,000
Speaker 1: the power of fans being able to do it on

1024
01:01:03,080 --> 01:01:07,520
Speaker 1: their own without anyone's help. I love that. It's so funny,

1025
01:01:07,560 --> 01:01:10,160
Speaker 1: it's so true. That's it. Do you look for the

1026
01:01:10,240 --> 01:01:13,560
Speaker 1: clues their hands touching to the glass, and then you

1027
01:01:13,720 --> 01:01:14,800
Speaker 1: take away the glass?

1028
01:01:15,920 --> 01:01:19,360
Speaker 2: Oh, I feel like you having a moment here?

1029
01:01:20,160 --> 01:01:25,160
Speaker 1: I am, I am. And then to close out, I

1030
01:01:25,280 --> 01:01:29,200
Speaker 1: have this thing I found from more Stand on Tumblr.

1031
01:01:30,080 --> 01:01:32,680
Speaker 1: And this is a while back. I found like all

1032
01:01:32,720 --> 01:01:36,040
Speaker 1: of this old archive like Fanish stuff like nineteen ninety

1033
01:01:36,080 --> 01:01:39,760
Speaker 1: three that I was researching this very cool. I don't

1034
01:01:39,840 --> 01:01:42,000
Speaker 1: know when it happened, but somewhere along the way, shipping

1035
01:01:42,080 --> 01:01:44,240
Speaker 1: got a new meaning for younger folk that seems to

1036
01:01:44,280 --> 01:01:47,240
Speaker 1: translate to I want these people together for real asap.

1037
01:01:47,640 --> 01:01:49,320
Speaker 1: I think the media had something to do with it.

1038
01:01:49,600 --> 01:01:54,000
Speaker 1: But guys, guys, shipping absolutely does not mean demanding anything

1039
01:01:54,080 --> 01:01:57,560
Speaker 1: from people slash creators. Shipping isn't about expecting and waiting

1040
01:01:57,600 --> 01:01:59,560
Speaker 1: for the day it will certainly happen. It is not

1041
01:01:59,720 --> 01:02:03,560
Speaker 1: a direct translation to happen or die. Shipping means you

1042
01:02:03,720 --> 01:02:05,840
Speaker 1: like the idea of two or more people together. You

1043
01:02:06,000 --> 01:02:08,760
Speaker 1: like the concepts, you find it fun to imagine, the dynamics,

1044
01:02:08,840 --> 01:02:11,840
Speaker 1: you even create fan and content of it, thick art edits.

1045
01:02:12,200 --> 01:02:14,400
Speaker 1: It's all on your head and it's fine that way.

1046
01:02:15,480 --> 01:02:17,800
Speaker 1: Is it nice to have a ship? Bekund Cannon, Oh

1047
01:02:17,880 --> 01:02:20,440
Speaker 1: my god, Yes, but that's not what shipping is about.

1048
01:02:20,520 --> 01:02:22,520
Speaker 1: And y'all need to take a step back and breathe,

1049
01:02:22,560 --> 01:02:24,880
Speaker 1: because being a jerk to people ain't gonna change their

1050
01:02:24,920 --> 01:02:32,960
Speaker 1: mind about ships. Yep. Yeah, but yeah, I just want

1051
01:02:33,000 --> 01:02:37,120
Speaker 1: to say, two people, and you know who you are, uh,

1052
01:02:37,560 --> 01:02:40,680
Speaker 1: who've watched good omens and you're happy. I'm happy for you.

1053
01:02:43,480 --> 01:02:43,800
Speaker 2: Vague.

1054
01:02:44,520 --> 01:02:50,040
Speaker 1: I told you I didn't want to spoilet, but okay, yes,

1055
01:02:50,440 --> 01:02:55,240
Speaker 1: I mean, like all things we talk about, uh, there's

1056
01:02:55,320 --> 01:02:58,720
Speaker 1: obviously really bad behavior, but there's really good behavior too,

1057
01:02:58,800 --> 01:03:03,080
Speaker 1: and a lot of it is that, uh, and it

1058
01:03:03,160 --> 01:03:05,600
Speaker 1: can be so fun and so beautiful and I love

1059
01:03:05,640 --> 01:03:09,880
Speaker 1: that too. Of like the idea, just because it doesn't

1060
01:03:09,880 --> 01:03:13,480
Speaker 1: become canon doesn't mean it can't be transformative. So yes,

1061
01:03:15,280 --> 01:03:17,280
Speaker 1: our shipping episode.

1062
01:03:18,120 --> 01:03:20,240
Speaker 2: Like towards and you just went going faster and faster

1063
01:03:20,400 --> 01:03:20,920
Speaker 2: trying to make it.

1064
01:03:21,200 --> 01:03:25,080
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I also will say I wrote an essay

1065
01:03:25,120 --> 01:03:30,480
Speaker 1: about this for Jamie that you can find about my

1066
01:03:30,560 --> 01:03:33,400
Speaker 1: thoughts about shipping. But that's what I have to say

1067
01:03:33,600 --> 01:03:41,000
Speaker 1: for now. So thank you Jamie for this suggestion. And yeah,

1068
01:03:41,040 --> 01:03:42,680
Speaker 1: if you would like to contact us if you have

1069
01:03:42,840 --> 01:03:45,560
Speaker 1: any thoughts about this, I'm sure that you do. You

1070
01:03:45,640 --> 01:03:48,040
Speaker 1: can email us stephanieum om Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com.

1071
01:03:48,160 --> 01:03:50,160
Speaker 1: You can find us on Twitter at Momstuff podcast, or

1072
01:03:50,240 --> 01:03:52,960
Speaker 1: on Instagram and TikTok at stuff. One ever told you

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Speaker 1: we have a tea public store. We also have a

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01:03:56,200 --> 01:04:00,400
Speaker 1: book that you can order. It is available let stuff

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01:04:00,400 --> 01:04:02,520
Speaker 1: You should read books dot com. Thanks as always to

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01:04:02,520 --> 01:04:05,480
Speaker 1: your super producer Christina, our executive producer Maya, and our

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01:04:05,520 --> 01:04:06,280
Speaker 1: contributor Joey.

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Speaker 2: I was gonna say talking about ship, but it wasn't

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01:04:08,240 --> 01:04:09,320
Speaker 2: gonna be right, So thank you.

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01:04:11,200 --> 01:04:13,680
Speaker 1: And thanks to you for listening. Stefan never told me

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Speaker 1: his production of My Heart Radio. For more podcasts from

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01:04:15,680 --> 01:04:17,560
Speaker 1: My Heart Radio, you can check out the Art Radio app,

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01:04:17,600 --> 01:04:19,960
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or Regulus to your favorite shows