1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,239 Speaker 1: Raffi is the voice of some of the happiest songs 2 00:00:03,279 --> 00:00:09,040 Speaker 1: of our generation, Babyga so who is the man behind 3 00:00:09,080 --> 00:00:14,000 Speaker 1: Baby Bluga. Every human beings wants to feel respected. When 4 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:18,439 Speaker 1: we start with all good things can grow from there. 5 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:22,279 Speaker 1: I'm Chris Garcia, comedian, new Dad and host of Finding Raffie, 6 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:25,680 Speaker 1: a new podcast from My Heart Radio and Fatherly. Listen 7 00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:28,400 Speaker 1: every Tuesday on the I Heart Radio app or wherever 8 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:32,680 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. I'm John Gonzalez, the host of 9 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 1: s i s new podcast, Sports Illustrated Weekly. Sports Illustrated 10 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:39,760 Speaker 1: has delivered some of the best storytelling in sports for 11 00:00:39,880 --> 00:00:43,680 Speaker 1: seventy years and now that continues. On our show. Each 12 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:46,160 Speaker 1: week will dive deep into the best stories from around 13 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:50,199 Speaker 1: the sports world. Sports Illustrated Weekly is available every Wednesday 14 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:53,800 Speaker 1: on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 15 00:00:53,880 --> 00:01:02,400 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. Subscribe now. NFL fans, nothing compares 16 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:07,319 Speaker 1: to being their Live is a lie and the NFL's 17 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:11,400 Speaker 1: biggest season ever is now ready for the postseason playoff time. 18 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:14,840 Speaker 1: We Gotta Win. NFL Playoff tickets are on sale now. 19 00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:16,840 Speaker 1: Don't miss your chance to be a part of the 20 00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:21,480 Speaker 1: post season action on the road to Super Bowl visit 21 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:25,200 Speaker 1: NFL dot com slash tickets for a complete listing of games. 22 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:31,600 Speaker 1: That's NFL dot com slash tickets. Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here, 23 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:33,399 Speaker 1: and I wanted to let you know. This is a 24 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:37,080 Speaker 1: compiletion episode. So every episode of the week that just 25 00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:41,280 Speaker 1: happened is here in one convenient and with somewhat less 26 00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:43,960 Speaker 1: ads package for you to listen to in a long 27 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:46,319 Speaker 1: stretch if you want. If you've been listening to the 28 00:01:46,319 --> 00:01:48,520 Speaker 1: episodes every day this week, there's gotta be nothing new 29 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:57,200 Speaker 1: here for you, but you can make your own decisions. Hey, 30 00:01:57,200 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 1: welcome to it could happen here. I'm Garrison, and today 31 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:06,040 Speaker 1: I'm gonna be talking about some really big things and ideas, 32 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:09,360 Speaker 1: but hopefully I'll be talking with them in a way 33 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:14,480 Speaker 1: that contextualizes them and makes you remember that despite their magnitude, 34 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:19,200 Speaker 1: there's still very real things that you can interact with. Anyway, 35 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:22,240 Speaker 1: I'll get started and eventually it will kind of make sense. 36 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:27,200 Speaker 1: So right now we are all living in one massive 37 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:31,560 Speaker 1: liminal space. For those less online than I am, i'll 38 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:35,280 Speaker 1: explain what I mean. Liminal spaces became an online meme 39 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:38,760 Speaker 1: around late twenty nineteen as a term to describe a 40 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:42,160 Speaker 1: certain type of picture that features architecture, or like just 41 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 1: a place that looks off familiar, eerie, lonely, yet mesmerizing 42 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:54,840 Speaker 1: and beautiful. I've been an avid lurker on the liminal 43 00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:58,679 Speaker 1: space subredit for a while now, and there's an undeniable 44 00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:03,280 Speaker 1: allure to these dreamlike photos of buildings and rooms and 45 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:07,640 Speaker 1: the effect that they have on me. Describing what makes 46 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:11,440 Speaker 1: a liminal space photo a liminal space photo as opposed 47 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:13,960 Speaker 1: to just any other regular photo of a building or 48 00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:18,080 Speaker 1: a room can be tricky because, in part the point 49 00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:21,120 Speaker 1: is to elicit a certain feeling without thinking too much 50 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:25,880 Speaker 1: about the why they're not spooky or scary in the 51 00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:29,720 Speaker 1: traditional sense. The gist of a liminal space photo and 52 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:32,680 Speaker 1: where it gets its name liminality, is a good place 53 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:36,800 Speaker 1: to begin to understand what type of feelings these pictures 54 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:41,800 Speaker 1: are supposed to produce. Liminal refers to a transitional phase 55 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:47,000 Speaker 1: and the ambiguity and disorientation associated with being inside of 56 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:50,880 Speaker 1: a threshold, not on either one side, per se, but 57 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:55,880 Speaker 1: somewhere in between. Now, that threshold can be many things. 58 00:03:56,400 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 1: A literal transitionary threshold between certain places is a common one. 59 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:05,600 Speaker 1: This can include stuff like hallways, and airports. One of 60 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:10,360 Speaker 1: my favorites, though, is a threshold between time, an ambiguous, 61 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 1: unspecific nostalgia you can't quite place, but it feels awfully familiar, 62 00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:20,640 Speaker 1: like a dream from childhood. Pictures of weird, indoor, squishy 63 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:24,800 Speaker 1: playgrounds do this for me. The other threshold is a 64 00:04:24,839 --> 00:04:28,760 Speaker 1: threshold between purpose and use, like a building or room 65 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:34,040 Speaker 1: designed for a very specific special purpose but now no longer, 66 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:37,880 Speaker 1: serving that it's empty and out of date, an abandoned mall, 67 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:42,599 Speaker 1: or cheery birthday party room at an arcade photographed desolate 68 00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:46,320 Speaker 1: and in the dark. There's two other aspects of liminal 69 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:51,239 Speaker 1: space photos that complement the various thresholds we've mentioned. Usually 70 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:55,360 Speaker 1: they have no visible people, and there's a sense of artificiality, 71 00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:59,320 Speaker 1: like a lot of fluorescent and artificial lighting, and even 72 00:04:59,320 --> 00:05:02,960 Speaker 1: when there is a sunny outside, it looks fake, like 73 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:07,240 Speaker 1: a Windows computer screen saver. One of the most popular 74 00:05:07,279 --> 00:05:10,680 Speaker 1: liminal space photos is of an underground bunker in Las 75 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:14,240 Speaker 1: Vegas that was painted and decorated to look like it's 76 00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:18,840 Speaker 1: outside despite being buried deep within the ground. It's such 77 00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:21,719 Speaker 1: a great example of liminal spaces because it elicits a 78 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:25,200 Speaker 1: certain type of cognitive dissonance and a distinct lack of 79 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:30,240 Speaker 1: synchronicity that is difficult to describe. Otherwise. Almost never is 80 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:34,960 Speaker 1: quote unquote nature the subject of these photos. They nearly 81 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 1: exclusively focus on very human constructs, particularly ones that no 82 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:43,719 Speaker 1: longer serve their intended use or maybe never did in 83 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:47,599 Speaker 1: the first place. So what do I mean by we're 84 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:52,039 Speaker 1: all in one huge liminal space right now? Well, we 85 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:56,280 Speaker 1: are in between an historic economic and technological boom, one 86 00:05:56,320 --> 00:05:59,719 Speaker 1: that's produced machines that resemble the magic of old. But 87 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:03,200 Speaker 1: on the other side of this valley is global climate 88 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:07,040 Speaker 1: catastrophe and destruction and change, the likes of which humans 89 00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:10,880 Speaker 1: have possibly never seen or at least remembered. We're in 90 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:15,560 Speaker 1: the transitionary period between these two states, and that disassociation 91 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:18,600 Speaker 1: of not being fully in either one, that that cognitive 92 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:21,960 Speaker 1: dissonance can be kind of mind boggling. It's like the 93 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 1: nervous anticipation right before the roller coaster goes over the peak, 94 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:29,480 Speaker 1: or that weird feeling of being alone in an empty 95 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:36,000 Speaker 1: church nursery at night. Similar to liminal space photos, climate 96 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:40,520 Speaker 1: change transcends a regular perception of time space, and with 97 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:46,120 Speaker 1: that cause and effect, it's more than just a regular thing, phenomenon, 98 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 1: or object. While specifically thinking about climate change, philosopher Timothy 99 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:58,600 Speaker 1: Morton dubbed these massive space time altering objects as hyper objects. Now, 100 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:02,599 Speaker 1: Morton often writes about things that can't be talked about directly, 101 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:04,720 Speaker 1: so really the only way to discuss it or get 102 00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:08,440 Speaker 1: into the topic is to orbit around it, associating with 103 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:12,000 Speaker 1: adjacent ideas or words to get close enough to the 104 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:14,880 Speaker 1: topic to partially understand it, even if you can't get 105 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:19,600 Speaker 1: quite there. Other possible examples of hyper objects besides climate 106 00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:23,760 Speaker 1: change can include stuff like black holes, the biosphere, or 107 00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 1: the solar system. But hyper objects don't need to be 108 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:31,320 Speaker 1: just massive celestial things. They can also be the sum 109 00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:34,640 Speaker 1: total of all nuclear materials on Earth, or the very 110 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:38,680 Speaker 1: long lasting product of direct human manufacture, such as all 111 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:41,960 Speaker 1: of the styroform of plastic bags in the world. It 112 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:44,880 Speaker 1: can also be the sum of all the worlding machinery 113 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:49,920 Speaker 1: of capitalism or the state. Hyper objects, then, are hyper 114 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:53,600 Speaker 1: just in relation to some other entity, whether they're directly 115 00:07:53,640 --> 00:08:00,160 Speaker 1: manufactured by humans or not, And hyper objects aren't just collections, systems, 116 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:04,760 Speaker 1: or assemblages of other objects. They are things in their 117 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:08,560 Speaker 1: own right, and they affect more than just humans. They 118 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 1: don't come into being just because humans notice them. They 119 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:14,800 Speaker 1: will have effects on the world whether or not they 120 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:20,000 Speaker 1: are observed. One of the more obvious differences between hyper 121 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:24,520 Speaker 1: objects and ordinary objects that you can't ever actually see 122 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:27,960 Speaker 1: a hyper object in its totality. You can only ever 123 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:32,360 Speaker 1: witness a small extension or piece of a hyper object. Now, 124 00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:35,679 Speaker 1: this makes thinking about them kind of intrinsically tricky. It's 125 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:39,160 Speaker 1: like only seeing a fragmented shadow of a thing and 126 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:43,520 Speaker 1: the effects that that thing has on all other things. Now, 127 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:47,520 Speaker 1: the more contrarian listeners might protest that we never see 128 00:08:47,559 --> 00:08:51,439 Speaker 1: all of any object, even ordinary ones. Now, it's obviously 129 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:54,840 Speaker 1: true that everything we see has a negative side, the 130 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:58,240 Speaker 1: part behind that we can't actually always look at, but 131 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:03,000 Speaker 1: can reasonably assume there. Now, the difference is that hyper 132 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:07,839 Speaker 1: objects transcend not only a regular conception of physical reality, 133 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:11,800 Speaker 1: but more so our temporal reality. You can hold a 134 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:14,600 Speaker 1: coffee monk and rotate it around in a pretty short 135 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:18,679 Speaker 1: amount of time and witnessed each side and angle, Or 136 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:20,760 Speaker 1: if you want to get really fancy, you could make 137 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 1: a three sixty scan so you can see a projected 138 00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:27,160 Speaker 1: version of the entire object, Or you know, more simply 139 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:29,959 Speaker 1: just get three people in a room to all look 140 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:32,880 Speaker 1: at different sides of the mug, thus forming a consensual 141 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:38,000 Speaker 1: reality based understanding of the whole object. Now, not only 142 00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:41,959 Speaker 1: can you not hold a hyper object, but even if 143 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:44,960 Speaker 1: you could, the temporal effects would make it impossible to 144 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:49,000 Speaker 1: rotate it around to witness the totality of what's being held, 145 00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:52,560 Speaker 1: and it would be way too big for multiple people 146 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 1: to ever witness all sides of the thing. Quoting from 147 00:09:57,120 --> 00:10:01,480 Speaker 1: Morton's book hyper Objects, The Philosophy and Ecology after the 148 00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:06,760 Speaker 1: End of the World. Quote, consider raindrops. You can feel 149 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:09,679 Speaker 1: them on your head, but you can't perceive the actual 150 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:14,040 Speaker 1: raindrop in itself. You can only ever perceive your particular 151 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:18,760 Speaker 1: anthropomorphic translation of the raindrops. Isn't this similar to the 152 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:21,440 Speaker 1: rift between weather, which I can feel falling on my head, 153 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:26,560 Speaker 1: and global climate, not the older idea of local patterns 154 00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:30,200 Speaker 1: of weather, but the entire system. I can think of 155 00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:33,960 Speaker 1: an compute climate in this sense, but I can't directly 156 00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:37,760 Speaker 1: see or touch it. The gap between the phenomenon and 157 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:42,120 Speaker 1: the thing yawns wide open, disturbing my sense of presence 158 00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:45,600 Speaker 1: and being in the world. Humans have been aware of 159 00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:49,360 Speaker 1: enormous entities, some realism imagined for as long as we 160 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 1: have existed. But this book is arguing that there is 161 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:56,640 Speaker 1: something quite special about the recently discovered entities such as climate. 162 00:10:57,280 --> 00:11:00,400 Speaker 1: These entities directly cause us to reflect on our very 163 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:04,120 Speaker 1: place on Earth and in the cosmos. Perhaps this is 164 00:11:04,120 --> 00:11:08,080 Speaker 1: the most fundamental issue. Hyper objects seem to force something 165 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:11,440 Speaker 1: on us, something that affects some core idea of what 166 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:15,760 Speaker 1: it means to exist, what Earth is, what society is. 167 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:20,240 Speaker 1: There's no doubt that cosmic phenomenon such as meteors and 168 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:25,400 Speaker 1: blood red moons, tsunami's, tornadoes, and earthquakes have terrified humans. 169 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:31,400 Speaker 1: In the past, meteors and comets were known as disasters. Literally, 170 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:35,880 Speaker 1: a disaster is a fallen, dysfunctional, or dangerous or evil 171 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:41,599 Speaker 1: star disaster. But such disasters take place against a stable backdrop. 172 00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 1: There is the Ptolemaic Aristolian machinery of the stars, which 173 00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:51,800 Speaker 1: hold fixed stars in place. It seems as if there's 174 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:55,840 Speaker 1: something about hyper objects that is more deeply challenging than 175 00:11:55,880 --> 00:12:01,720 Speaker 1: these disasters. The worries not whether the world will end 176 00:12:02,040 --> 00:12:05,160 Speaker 1: as in the old models of the disaster, but whether 177 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:09,079 Speaker 1: the end of the world is already happening, or whether 178 00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:13,600 Speaker 1: perhaps it might have already taken place. A deep shuttering 179 00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:18,599 Speaker 1: of temporality then occurs. For one thing, we are inside 180 00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:21,720 Speaker 1: hyper objects, like Jonah in the whale. This means that 181 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:24,960 Speaker 1: every decision we make is in some sense related to 182 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:29,440 Speaker 1: hyper objects. These decisions are not merely limited to sentences 183 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:32,840 Speaker 1: in texts about hyper objects. When I turned the key 184 00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:35,280 Speaker 1: in the ignition of my car, I am relating to 185 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:39,360 Speaker 1: global warming. When a novelist writes about the immigration to Mars, 186 00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:44,080 Speaker 1: they are relating to global warming. I am one of 187 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:47,440 Speaker 1: the entities caught in the hyper object that I hear 188 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:54,720 Speaker 1: call global warming. Different hyper objects have numerous properties in common, 189 00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:57,800 Speaker 1: but for our purposes we're going to discuss the five 190 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:02,720 Speaker 1: main points of similarity. Hyper Objects are viscous, meaning they 191 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:06,360 Speaker 1: stick to beings that are involved with them. They are nonlocal, 192 00:13:06,520 --> 00:13:09,199 Speaker 1: in other words, and any local manifestation of the hyper 193 00:13:09,280 --> 00:13:14,200 Speaker 1: object is not directly the hyper object. They involve very 194 00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:17,880 Speaker 1: different temporalities than the human scale ones that were used 195 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:21,720 Speaker 1: to In particular, some very very large hyper objects have 196 00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:26,880 Speaker 1: a genuine Gaussian temporality. They generate space time vortexes due 197 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:31,560 Speaker 1: to general relativity, and hyper objects occupy a higher dimensional 198 00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:36,160 Speaker 1: phase space that results in their being invisible to humans 199 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:40,480 Speaker 1: for stretches of time, and they exhibit their effects inter objectively. 200 00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:43,160 Speaker 1: That is, they can be detected in a space that 201 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:48,480 Speaker 1: consists of inter relationships between ascetic properties of objects. The 202 00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 1: hyper object is not just a function of our knowledge. 203 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:56,000 Speaker 1: It is also hyper relative to worms, lemons, and ultra 204 00:13:56,120 --> 00:14:00,480 Speaker 1: violet rays as well as humans. Now, I'm gonna go 205 00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:04,400 Speaker 1: into the five different points of similarity in more detail 206 00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:08,480 Speaker 1: to kind of help flesh out what these things hyper objects, 207 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:11,400 Speaker 1: what they are, and how they might actually be a 208 00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:15,800 Speaker 1: useful way to think about really big stuff. So, first off, 209 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:20,520 Speaker 1: viscous hyper objects adhere to any object they touch, no 210 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:24,320 Speaker 1: matter how hard the objects tries to resist. In this way, 211 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:28,240 Speaker 1: hyper objects overrule ironic distance, meaning that the more an 212 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:31,880 Speaker 1: object tries to resist a hyper object, the more glued 213 00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:35,360 Speaker 1: to the hyper object it becomes. Now, the more you 214 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:38,120 Speaker 1: learn about any big topic, the more you'll end up 215 00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:41,640 Speaker 1: noticing it in the world. This is the law of synchronicity. 216 00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:44,360 Speaker 1: But the more you know about climate change, the more 217 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:48,440 Speaker 1: you realize how perversive it is. The more you discover 218 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:51,760 Speaker 1: about evolution, the more you realize how much our entire 219 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:56,560 Speaker 1: physical being is caught in its mesh work. Immediate intimate 220 00:14:56,560 --> 00:15:00,800 Speaker 1: symptoms of hyper objects are very real, vivid, and often painful, 221 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:06,640 Speaker 1: yet they carry with them this trace of unreality. A 222 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:11,840 Speaker 1: good example of hyper object viscosity would be radioactive materials. 223 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:14,280 Speaker 1: The more you try to get rid of them, the 224 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:19,200 Speaker 1: more you realize you can't. They seriously undermine the notion 225 00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:24,800 Speaker 1: of a way there is no away. Flushing vomit down 226 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:27,320 Speaker 1: the toilet doesn't make it disappear. It makes its way 227 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:30,400 Speaker 1: to the ocean or the water treatment facility, and and 228 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:34,040 Speaker 1: eventually just back to us again. I'll quote from the 229 00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:38,520 Speaker 1: book hyper Objects quote late itself is the most viscous 230 00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:42,880 Speaker 1: thing of all, since nothing can surpass its speed. Radiation 231 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:47,200 Speaker 1: is Sartra's jar of honey par excellence, a luminous honey 232 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:51,920 Speaker 1: that reveals our bone structure as it seeps around us. Again, 233 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:54,880 Speaker 1: it's not a matter of making some suicidal leap into 234 00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:58,520 Speaker 1: the honey, but discovering that we are already inside it. 235 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:03,880 Speaker 1: This is it, folks, This is the ecological interconnectedness. Come 236 00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:06,320 Speaker 1: in and join the fun. But I see that you're 237 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:13,400 Speaker 1: already here unquote. Yeah, that is a that's fun. The 238 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:16,080 Speaker 1: next point of similarity, we're to discuss is the molten 239 00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:21,560 Speaker 1: or Gaussian quality. Hyper Objects are time stretched to such 240 00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:25,320 Speaker 1: an extent that they become impossible to hold in the mind. 241 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:29,000 Speaker 1: Hyper objects are so massive that they refute the idea 242 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:33,360 Speaker 1: that spacetime is fixed, concrete, and consistent. The size of 243 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:36,560 Speaker 1: hyper objects can make them basically invisible just because they're 244 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:40,560 Speaker 1: so big. It's like swimming in Crater Lake in southern Oregon, 245 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:43,280 Speaker 1: one of the deepest lakes in the world. But it's 246 00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:47,680 Speaker 1: not just deep, it's also very very clear. So the 247 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 1: water is so deep yet so clear. It's like you're 248 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:54,040 Speaker 1: swimming in the sky. It's like you're swimming in nothing. 249 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:56,680 Speaker 1: It would be like if you approach an object and 250 00:16:56,840 --> 00:17:00,960 Speaker 1: more and more objects emerge because we can't see the 251 00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:05,040 Speaker 1: end of them. Hyper objects are necessarily uncanny. They have 252 00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:09,480 Speaker 1: to be. Just like my favorite liminal space photos. Hyper 253 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:13,800 Speaker 1: objects seem to beckon us further into themselves, making us 254 00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:17,959 Speaker 1: realize that we're already lost inside them. The recognition of 255 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:21,679 Speaker 1: being caught in hyper objects is precisely a feeling of 256 00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:29,520 Speaker 1: strange familiarity and a familiar strangeness. Next up is nonlocality. 257 00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:33,800 Speaker 1: Hyper Objects are massively distributed in time and space, such 258 00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:39,160 Speaker 1: as any particular local manifestation never actually reveals the totality 259 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:42,720 Speaker 1: of the hyper object. For example, climate change is a 260 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:47,200 Speaker 1: hyper object that impacts meteorological conditions such as tornado formations. 261 00:17:48,119 --> 00:17:54,000 Speaker 1: Objects don't feel climate change, but instead experience tornadoes as 262 00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:58,920 Speaker 1: they cause damage in specific places. Thus, nonlocality describes the 263 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:02,120 Speaker 1: manner in which a hyper object becomes more substantial than 264 00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:07,840 Speaker 1: the local manifestations that they produce, putting moreton again. For 265 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:12,159 Speaker 1: a flower, nuclear radiation turns its leaves a strange shade 266 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:16,320 Speaker 1: of red. Global warming for the tomato farmer rots the tomatoes. 267 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:20,159 Speaker 1: Plastic for the bird, strangles it as it becomes entangled 268 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:23,320 Speaker 1: in a set of six pack rings. What we are 269 00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:26,199 Speaker 1: really dealing with here are just the aesthetic effects that 270 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:30,600 Speaker 1: are directly causal. The octopus of the hyper object amits 271 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:34,439 Speaker 1: a cloud of ink as it withdrawals from access. Yet 272 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:37,320 Speaker 1: this cloud of ink is a cloud of its effects 273 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:43,040 Speaker 1: and effects these phenomenon themselves are not global warming or radiation. 274 00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:47,359 Speaker 1: Action at a distance is involved. It's like confusing the 275 00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:52,920 Speaker 1: map with the territory. Hyper Objects cannot be thought up 276 00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:57,600 Speaker 1: as occupying a series of now points in time or space. 277 00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:01,600 Speaker 1: They confound the social and psycho instruments we use to 278 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:06,199 Speaker 1: measure them. Even digital devices have trouble. Global warming is 279 00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:09,720 Speaker 1: not just a function of our measuring devices yet, because 280 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:13,560 Speaker 1: it's distributed across the biosphere and beyond, it's hard to 281 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:16,800 Speaker 1: see it as a unique entity. And yet there it 282 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:20,119 Speaker 1: is raining down on us, burning down on us, quaking 283 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:25,040 Speaker 1: the earth, spawning giant hurricanes. Global warming is an object 284 00:19:25,359 --> 00:19:29,480 Speaker 1: of which many things are distributed pieces the rain drops 285 00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:32,240 Speaker 1: falling on my head in northern California, the tsunami that 286 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:36,560 Speaker 1: pours through the streets of Japanese towns, the increasing earthquake 287 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:40,359 Speaker 1: activity based on changing pressure on the ocean floor like 288 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:43,919 Speaker 1: a moving illusion picture. Global warming is real, but it 289 00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 1: involves a massive, counterintuitive perspective shift for us to see it. 290 00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:53,080 Speaker 1: Convincing some people of its existence is like convincing some 291 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:57,760 Speaker 1: two dimensional flatland people of the existence of apples based 292 00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:00,800 Speaker 1: on the appearance of a morphing circle oular shape in 293 00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:07,320 Speaker 1: their world. Next point of similarity is phasing. So our 294 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:11,600 Speaker 1: sense of being in a time and inhabiting a place 295 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:16,720 Speaker 1: depends on forms of regularity, the periodic rhythms of day 296 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:20,440 Speaker 1: and night, the sun coming up. Only now we know 297 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:24,720 Speaker 1: that it doesn't really come up. It's now common knowledge 298 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:28,280 Speaker 1: that the Moon's phases are just the relationship between the 299 00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:31,160 Speaker 1: Earth and the Moon as they circumnavigate to the Sun. 300 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:35,000 Speaker 1: Hyper objects seem to phase in and out of the 301 00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 1: human world. They occupy a higher dimensional phase space that 302 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:42,320 Speaker 1: makes them impossible to see as a whole on our 303 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:47,199 Speaker 1: regular three dimensional human scale basis, but they might appear 304 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:51,800 Speaker 1: differently to an observer with a higher dimensional view. We 305 00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:54,600 Speaker 1: can only see pieces of a hyper object at a time. 306 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:57,840 Speaker 1: The reason why they appear non local and temporarily for 307 00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:03,000 Speaker 1: shortened is precisely because of this trans dimensional quality. We 308 00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:05,919 Speaker 1: can only see pieces of them at once, like a 309 00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:10,080 Speaker 1: tsunami or a taste of radiation sickness. If an apple 310 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:13,560 Speaker 1: were to invade a two dimensional world, first the stick 311 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:16,040 Speaker 1: people would see some dots as the bottom of the 312 00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:19,840 Speaker 1: apple touched their universe, and then a rapid succession of 313 00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 1: shapes that would appear like an expanding and contracting circular blob, 314 00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 1: diminishing into a tiny circle, possibly a point, and then disappearing. 315 00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:32,600 Speaker 1: That's why you can't directly see climate change. You would 316 00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:35,440 Speaker 1: need to occupy some higher dimensional space to see the 317 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:40,320 Speaker 1: hyper object unfolding explicitly. Like the people in the two 318 00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:43,560 Speaker 1: dimensional flat land. We can only see brief patches of 319 00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:47,800 Speaker 1: this gigantic object as it intersects with our world. The 320 00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:52,000 Speaker 1: brief patch called hurricane destroys the infrastructure of New Orleans. 321 00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:55,760 Speaker 1: The brief patch called drought burns the planes of Russia 322 00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:59,320 Speaker 1: and the midwestern United States to a crisp our bodies 323 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:05,119 Speaker 1: itch we yesterday's sunburn, But don't relegate hyper objects as 324 00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:10,320 Speaker 1: a simple abstract notion. Thinking hyper objects as transdimensional real 325 00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:14,760 Speaker 1: things is valuable. Global warming is not simply a mathematical 326 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:19,200 Speaker 1: abstraction that doesn't really pertain to this world. Hyper Objects 327 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:23,119 Speaker 1: don't just inhabit some conceptual beyond in our heads or 328 00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:27,560 Speaker 1: out there. They are real objects that affect other objects. 329 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:30,760 Speaker 1: We tend to only think about hyper objects as they 330 00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:35,440 Speaker 1: phase in and connect to other, more static objects. This 331 00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:38,960 Speaker 1: is a mistake and contributes to non action. Whether or 332 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:43,280 Speaker 1: not we perceive objects and hyper objects connecting doesn't affect 333 00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:47,120 Speaker 1: the existence and the inevitable effects of the hyper object. 334 00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:52,080 Speaker 1: What we experience as the slow periodic re occurrence of 335 00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:55,119 Speaker 1: a celestial event such as an eclipse or a comet, 336 00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:59,760 Speaker 1: is a continuous entity whose imprint simply shows up on 337 00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:04,000 Speaker 1: our social and cognitive space for a while. The gaps 338 00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:07,520 Speaker 1: I perceive between moments at which my mind is aware 339 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:10,240 Speaker 1: of the hyper object and moments at which it isn't 340 00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:15,399 Speaker 1: do not matter in relation to the hyper object itself. Okay, 341 00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:19,679 Speaker 1: and now onto our final point of similarity. Inter Objective 342 00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:25,920 Speaker 1: hyper objects are formed by relations between more than one object. Consequently, 343 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:30,080 Speaker 1: objects are only able to perceive the imprint or footprint 344 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:35,040 Speaker 1: of a hyper object upon other objects revealed as information. 345 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:40,879 Speaker 1: It's all an ecological mesh of interconnectedness and inter objectivity. 346 00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:45,840 Speaker 1: For example, climate change is formed by interactions between the sun, 347 00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:52,120 Speaker 1: fossil fuels, carbon dioxide, economic growth, among other things. Yet 348 00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:56,720 Speaker 1: climate change is made apparent through emissions levels, temperature changes, 349 00:23:56,920 --> 00:24:00,640 Speaker 1: and the sea level rising, making it see as if 350 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:04,000 Speaker 1: global warming is a product of scientific models rather than 351 00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:09,240 Speaker 1: connected to an object that predates its own measurement. Hyper 352 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:13,600 Speaker 1: objects exist in and between objects and things we deal 353 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:18,240 Speaker 1: with every day, but it's not simply those objects. Plastic 354 00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:23,040 Speaker 1: bags are not climate change, but those things are both intertwined. 355 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:27,320 Speaker 1: Hurricanes are not climate change, but they can be a 356 00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:33,080 Speaker 1: shadow like local manifestation of it. A mesh consists of 357 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:37,960 Speaker 1: relationships between criss crossing strands and the gaps between strands. 358 00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:42,199 Speaker 1: Meshes are a potent metaphor for the strange interconnectedness of 359 00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:47,280 Speaker 1: things and interconnectedness that does not allow for perfect, lossless 360 00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:52,359 Speaker 1: transmission of information, but is instead full of gaps and absences. 361 00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:56,280 Speaker 1: When an object is born, it is instantly a meshed 362 00:24:56,480 --> 00:25:00,960 Speaker 1: into a relationship with other objects in the mesh. The 363 00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:04,879 Speaker 1: mesh isn't inside of all things, but it's on the 364 00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:09,720 Speaker 1: edge or floats on top of all things. Inter objective 365 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:14,239 Speaker 1: mesh is the extra connecting layer between the mass and 366 00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:19,800 Speaker 1: the mask of all objects, almost like a universal skin fascia. 367 00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:25,040 Speaker 1: Inter objectivity provides a space that is ontologically in front 368 00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:30,800 Speaker 1: of objects in which relational phenomenon can emerge. The massiveness 369 00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:34,360 Speaker 1: and distribution of hyper objects simply force us to take 370 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:38,479 Speaker 1: note of this fact. Hyper objects provide great examples of 371 00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:42,280 Speaker 1: inter objectivity, namely the way in which nothing has ever 372 00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:47,199 Speaker 1: experienced directly, but only as mediated through other entities in 373 00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:52,920 Speaker 1: some shared consensual space. We never hear the wind in itself, 374 00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:56,560 Speaker 1: only the wind in the door, the wind in the trees. 375 00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:00,600 Speaker 1: This means that for every objective system, there is at 376 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:05,040 Speaker 1: least one entity that is withdrawn from the relationship. We 377 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:08,400 Speaker 1: see the footprint of a dinosaur left in some ancient 378 00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:12,040 Speaker 1: rock that was once a pool of mud. The dinosaur's 379 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:16,720 Speaker 1: reality exists inter objectively. There is some form of shared 380 00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:21,800 Speaker 1: space between the rock, ourselves, and the dinosaur, even though 381 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:27,160 Speaker 1: the dinosaur isn't there directly. The print of a dinosaur's 382 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:30,320 Speaker 1: foot in the mud is seen as a foot shaped 383 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:34,920 Speaker 1: hole in a rock by humans sixty five million years later. 384 00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:39,880 Speaker 1: There is some sensuous connection then, between the dinosaur, the rock, 385 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:45,800 Speaker 1: and the human, despite their vastly differing time scales. The 386 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:51,040 Speaker 1: dinosaur footprint in fossilized mud is not a dinosaur. Rather, 387 00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:54,960 Speaker 1: the footprint is a trace of the hyper object evolution 388 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:59,840 Speaker 1: that joins me, the dinosaur, and the mud together, along 389 00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:03,359 Speaker 1: with the intentional act of holding them in the mind. 390 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:12,280 Speaker 1: I found the hyper object banner as a useful tool 391 00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:14,560 Speaker 1: to help my brain think about things that are just 392 00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:18,159 Speaker 1: too big, things that have effects so spaced out in 393 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:21,239 Speaker 1: time that using in our ordinary models of thought are 394 00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:25,359 Speaker 1: just inadequate. You can also reconcile the opposing views that 395 00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:28,919 Speaker 1: cast climate change as the very real series of disasters 396 00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:32,640 Speaker 1: or a complicated, interlocking mess of systems that can feel 397 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:37,280 Speaker 1: very unreal and overwhelming. Just thinking of big things as 398 00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:41,320 Speaker 1: abstract systems has the habit of divorcing you from the 399 00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:45,640 Speaker 1: real world impacts things like hyper objects can cause. Sometimes 400 00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:48,680 Speaker 1: we forget that climate change is a thing we interact 401 00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:54,400 Speaker 1: with every day and can inform choices we make. Now 402 00:27:54,480 --> 00:28:00,200 Speaker 1: the almost impossible to comprehend totality of our situation. It's 403 00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:02,879 Speaker 1: not great for mental well being. You can end up 404 00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:07,960 Speaker 1: tail spinning down a black hole of fate, conspiracy, coping, denial, 405 00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:11,320 Speaker 1: and doom. It's very easy to trip and fall into 406 00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:15,080 Speaker 1: a void of negation. Things that are hyper objects fundamentally 407 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:18,600 Speaker 1: break our conception of reality temporality and cause an effect. 408 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:22,199 Speaker 1: And it's already a really weird time to try to 409 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:26,199 Speaker 1: suss out reality. We're constantly being bombarded with products and 410 00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:30,479 Speaker 1: services trying to usurp the real That's what marketing is. 411 00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:34,240 Speaker 1: You know. First we had the Internet with its limitless 412 00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:37,720 Speaker 1: possibilities as a digital universe. Then we got the world 413 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:42,520 Speaker 1: of social media with all of its fractured and fractal realities. 414 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:46,240 Speaker 1: There's a massive gaming and the allure of getting lost 415 00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:50,160 Speaker 1: within thousands of unique worlds. And now we have VR 416 00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:55,160 Speaker 1: a r and the metaverse, more layers of digital fabrication 417 00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:59,040 Speaker 1: trying to be passed off as an almost hyper reality, 418 00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:02,400 Speaker 1: a prom us to make a reality even more real 419 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:07,640 Speaker 1: and immersive than our status quo. The Internet itself is 420 00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:12,440 Speaker 1: another hyper object, and all this extra reality can take 421 00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:16,920 Speaker 1: a strain on the human mind. De realization, the perception 422 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:21,280 Speaker 1: that actual waking reality is an artificial construct. The feeling 423 00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:24,840 Speaker 1: of being de attached from your surroundings, like the world's 424 00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:28,200 Speaker 1: made of cardboard, or you're looking at everything through a 425 00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:32,360 Speaker 1: cloud of fog, is becoming more and more common, especially 426 00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:36,080 Speaker 1: among so called Gen Z, the generation that drew up 427 00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:40,320 Speaker 1: with the Internet being a staple of life. Now. How 428 00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:43,520 Speaker 1: we got here is a disassociation between humans and what 429 00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:48,000 Speaker 1: we call nature or the environment. The problems are getting 430 00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:51,640 Speaker 1: fixed because we're so disassociated from the effects, just as 431 00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:55,920 Speaker 1: the effects are from the cause. That resulting alienation of 432 00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:59,840 Speaker 1: all things makes this worse. All of the worst effects 433 00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:03,360 Speaker 1: that timate change aren't going to be felt for hundreds 434 00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:06,600 Speaker 1: of years. And that is a weird feeling, that is 435 00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:10,320 Speaker 1: cognitive dissonance that I don't know how to understand that, 436 00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:14,120 Speaker 1: and that makes making decisions about our situation now feel 437 00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:17,320 Speaker 1: distant yet also urgent. It's both and it's neither, and 438 00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:22,440 Speaker 1: it's confusing. The resulting alienation of all things makes this worse. 439 00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:26,600 Speaker 1: It produces this lack of immediate and close and proximity consequences. 440 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:31,560 Speaker 1: We must purposely remove these layers of separation and abandoned 441 00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:37,400 Speaker 1: our anthropocentric thinking. Nature isn't other from us. We are nature, 442 00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:40,160 Speaker 1: It's the same thing. We are all part of this 443 00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:45,000 Speaker 1: big mesh. This, this sacred idea of nature isn't natural 444 00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:48,000 Speaker 1: and can never be naturalized. We have to learn how 445 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:52,440 Speaker 1: to have an ecology without nature, with without nature as 446 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:56,880 Speaker 1: a separate thing. To have a genuine ecological view, we 447 00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:01,680 Speaker 1: must relinquish this idea that nature being separate from us, 448 00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:04,680 Speaker 1: once and for all. We have to kill the anthroprasyne 449 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:08,760 Speaker 1: in our own head. A quote from one of Morton's 450 00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:14,080 Speaker 1: other books titled Ecology Without Nature. Putting something called nature 451 00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:17,600 Speaker 1: on a pedestal and admiring it from afar does for 452 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:21,120 Speaker 1: the environment what patriarchy does for the figure of a woman. 453 00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:28,200 Speaker 1: It's a paradoxical act of sadistic, possessive admiration. Unquote. So 454 00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:33,080 Speaker 1: within Morton's branch of philosophy, reification, the making of a 455 00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:36,640 Speaker 1: thing into a thing, is precisely the reduction of a 456 00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:41,800 Speaker 1: real object to its sensual appearance. For another object, reification 457 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:46,720 Speaker 1: is reduction of one's entity to another's fantasy about it. 458 00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:51,520 Speaker 1: Nature is a realification in this sense, and that's why 459 00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:55,200 Speaker 1: we need an ecology without nature. Maybe if we turn 460 00:31:55,320 --> 00:32:00,000 Speaker 1: nature into something more fluid, it might work. Now most 461 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:03,640 Speaker 1: most of our modern political discourse can be boiled down 462 00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:07,480 Speaker 1: to what things are real and what things are not. 463 00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:11,360 Speaker 1: Hyper objects and climate change don't just play into this debate, 464 00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:14,880 Speaker 1: but crash into it, decimating all the other toys in 465 00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:19,080 Speaker 1: this sandbox. As Morton says, the threat of global warming 466 00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:23,479 Speaker 1: is not only political but also ontological. The threat of 467 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:28,920 Speaker 1: unreality is the very sign of reality itself. And oh boy, 468 00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:33,720 Speaker 1: do we be experiencing this simultaneous disillusionment of reality and 469 00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:37,920 Speaker 1: the overwhelmingly real presence of hyper objects which stick to us, 470 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:42,040 Speaker 1: which are us. The worry is not whether the world 471 00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:45,560 Speaker 1: will end, but whether the end of the world is 472 00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:49,880 Speaker 1: already happening, or whether perhaps they might have already taken place. 473 00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:53,400 Speaker 1: The idea of the end of the world is very 474 00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:57,720 Speaker 1: active in environmentalism, but the way it's usually framed kind 475 00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:01,120 Speaker 1: of fosters its own negation. The end of the world 476 00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:05,160 Speaker 1: is coming idea is not really effective, since to all 477 00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:08,560 Speaker 1: types of purposes, the being that we are supposed to 478 00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:12,720 Speaker 1: feel anxiety about and care for is actually already gone. 479 00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:16,480 Speaker 1: This does not mean that there's no hope for ecological 480 00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:20,240 Speaker 1: politics and ethics and a better future. Far from it. 481 00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:23,560 Speaker 1: In fact, Morton and I would argue that the strongly 482 00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:26,040 Speaker 1: held belief that the world's about to end unless we 483 00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:29,680 Speaker 1: act now is paradoxically one of the most powerful factors 484 00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:34,960 Speaker 1: that inhibit a full engagement with our ecological coexistence here 485 00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:38,760 Speaker 1: on Earth. The strategy of the ecological hyper object concept 486 00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:41,960 Speaker 1: is to then awaken us from this dream that the 487 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:45,160 Speaker 1: world's about to end, because action on Earth, like the 488 00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:48,120 Speaker 1: real Earth, depends on it, the end of the world 489 00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:53,520 Speaker 1: has already happened. Using the hyper object idea helps sort 490 00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:56,640 Speaker 1: out these overly systematic things into a package that I 491 00:33:56,680 --> 00:34:00,720 Speaker 1: can actually think about. There's something about discovering the language 492 00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:03,680 Speaker 1: for a feeling, being able to name it that is 493 00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:08,600 Speaker 1: empowering a way of finding handhold in the dim light 494 00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:13,400 Speaker 1: of confusion, rather than scrambling around in the dark. So 495 00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:17,719 Speaker 1: how would you convince two dimensional flatland people of the 496 00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:21,279 Speaker 1: existence of apples based on the occasional phasing appearance of 497 00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:25,960 Speaker 1: a morphing circular shape in their world. Now, hyper objects 498 00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:29,319 Speaker 1: can really assist in understanding the cognitive dissonance around to 499 00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:33,120 Speaker 1: climate denial. You can't point to something like rising sea 500 00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:36,480 Speaker 1: levels and say that is climate change, because yeah, that 501 00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:41,319 Speaker 1: isn't climate change. The hyper object rising sea levels are 502 00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:45,160 Speaker 1: just an environmental effect, and since the effects are so 503 00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:48,480 Speaker 1: disattached from the cause, that fosters a lot of room 504 00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:51,960 Speaker 1: for cognitive dissonance. When people point at extreme weather and 505 00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:56,400 Speaker 1: call it something else. It's our lack of ecology. Are 506 00:34:56,400 --> 00:35:01,400 Speaker 1: seeing of interconnected things as separate problems or manifestation, missing 507 00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:04,239 Speaker 1: the fact that almost all of our problems don't have 508 00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:07,600 Speaker 1: a shared root cause, but instead are just part of 509 00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:12,920 Speaker 1: a massive, shared bungee cord like mesh network. When so 510 00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:16,680 Speaker 1: many local manifesting problems and actual disasters are blamed on 511 00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:19,680 Speaker 1: climate change, even if you believe climate change is the cause, 512 00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:23,960 Speaker 1: which you know it is, it still feels weird because 513 00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:27,960 Speaker 1: climate change isn't just a simple thing. It's such an 514 00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:32,400 Speaker 1: amorphous shape shifting time traveling idea that for the climate 515 00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:36,719 Speaker 1: denier or climate skeptic, seeing very real physical effects be 516 00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:40,479 Speaker 1: blamed on such an abstract thing is hard for them 517 00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:45,680 Speaker 1: and their understanding of reality. For many people, rejecting hyper 518 00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:49,600 Speaker 1: objects is a lot easier than thinking about them, because 519 00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:53,000 Speaker 1: once you start thinking about them, finding solutions to problems 520 00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:58,600 Speaker 1: so displaced in time it's not only difficult but encourages procrastination. 521 00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:02,719 Speaker 1: The greenhouse gas emissions up there in the air right 522 00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:06,440 Speaker 1: now won't reach their full effects for decades and centuries. 523 00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:10,640 Speaker 1: That's not downplaying the urgency of the problem. In fact, 524 00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:14,640 Speaker 1: that should make the problem more urgent. The cause is 525 00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:19,240 Speaker 1: our brief luxury, and the effect is terror forming the world. 526 00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:24,759 Speaker 1: And we are right now caught in between the uncanny 527 00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:29,319 Speaker 1: hyper object of all liminal spaces. The end of the 528 00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:32,520 Speaker 1: world has already happened. We are on the path and 529 00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:35,880 Speaker 1: about to enter a new world. We are in the 530 00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:40,120 Speaker 1: liminal space hallway of all liminal space hallways. The door 531 00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:42,799 Speaker 1: behind us is closed, and at the other end of 532 00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:46,279 Speaker 1: the hallway is a black hole. We cannot backtrack and 533 00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:49,400 Speaker 1: re enter the door behind us. Already are we getting 534 00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:52,920 Speaker 1: sucked forward into the hallway, But there are many doors 535 00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:55,520 Speaker 1: ahead of us, and we get to choose which one 536 00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:59,360 Speaker 1: to open. At this point, we have passed some of 537 00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:02,759 Speaker 1: the pretty doors, but don't be tricked into thinking that 538 00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:06,120 Speaker 1: there are none left. We must not focus on preserving 539 00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:08,960 Speaker 1: an old way of life, but instead need to carefully 540 00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:12,919 Speaker 1: carve out our new reality. We need to pick our 541 00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:20,520 Speaker 1: new door. Well. That is my essay. Read thing episode 542 00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:26,000 Speaker 1: amalgamation about hyper objects, liminal spaces, and our new reality. 543 00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:31,520 Speaker 1: I hope you found some of the ideas useful um 544 00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:36,400 Speaker 1: despite their kind of abstract and anti abstract nature. If 545 00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:38,600 Speaker 1: you want to learn more about this, I would recommend 546 00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:43,480 Speaker 1: reading Timothy Morton's book hyper Objects Um. It is an 547 00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:46,279 Speaker 1: academic read, but it's not that bad. I would I 548 00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:48,399 Speaker 1: would recommend picking up if you want to learn more 549 00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:51,399 Speaker 1: about these things. I'm sure I'll talk about them more 550 00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:54,839 Speaker 1: in the future. Thank you for listening. Everybody see you 551 00:37:54,840 --> 00:38:05,000 Speaker 1: on the other side. Raffie is the voice of some 552 00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:11,200 Speaker 1: of the happiest songs of our generation. Baby So who 553 00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:15,200 Speaker 1: is the man behind Baby Bluga? Every human being wants 554 00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:20,120 Speaker 1: to feel respected. When we start with young, all good 555 00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:23,640 Speaker 1: things can grow from there. I'm Chris Garcia, comedian, new 556 00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:26,640 Speaker 1: Dad and host of Finding Raffie, a new podcast from 557 00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:29,880 Speaker 1: my Heart Radio and Fatherly Listen every Tuesday on the 558 00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:32,719 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio app or wherever you get your podcasts. 559 00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:36,160 Speaker 1: Look at your children's eyes to see the true magic 560 00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:39,680 Speaker 1: of a forest. It's a storybook world for them. You 561 00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:42,840 Speaker 1: look and see a tree. They see the wrinkled face 562 00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:46,239 Speaker 1: of a wizard with arms outstretched to the sky. They 563 00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:49,480 Speaker 1: see treasure and pebbles. They see a windy path that 564 00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:53,440 Speaker 1: could lead to adventure, and they see you. They're fearless 565 00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:57,040 Speaker 1: guide to this fascinating world. Find a forest near you 566 00:38:57,200 --> 00:39:00,319 Speaker 1: and start exploring it. Discover the Forest dot Org. Brought 567 00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:02,279 Speaker 1: to you by the United States Force Service and the 568 00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:07,640 Speaker 1: AD Council. I'm Jake Halbern, host of deep Cover. Our 569 00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:10,280 Speaker 1: new season is about a lawyer who helped the mob 570 00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:14,960 Speaker 1: run Chicago. We controlled the courts, we controlled absolutely everything. 571 00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:18,960 Speaker 1: He broughbed judges and even helped a hit man walk free, 572 00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:22,680 Speaker 1: until one day when he started talking with the FBI 573 00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:26,080 Speaker 1: and promised that he could take the mob down. I've 574 00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:28,160 Speaker 1: spent the past year trying to figure out why he 575 00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:31,440 Speaker 1: flipped and what he was really after. From my perspective, 576 00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:33,719 Speaker 1: Bob was too good to be true. There's got to 577 00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:36,479 Speaker 1: be something wrong with this I wouldn't trust the guy. 578 00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:39,720 Speaker 1: He looks like a little scum, big lawyer, stool pidgeon. 579 00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:42,040 Speaker 1: He looked like what he was or at. I can 580 00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:44,640 Speaker 1: say with all certainty I think he's a hero because 581 00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:46,239 Speaker 1: he didn't have to do what he did, and he 582 00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:48,760 Speaker 1: did it anyway. The moment I put the wire around 583 00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:51,960 Speaker 1: the first time, my life was over. If it ever 584 00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:55,360 Speaker 1: got out, they would kill me in a heartbeat. Listen 585 00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:57,600 Speaker 1: to deep Cover on the I Heart radio app, Apple 586 00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:14,120 Speaker 1: Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. Welcome to it 587 00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:21,960 Speaker 1: could happen here podcast. I'm Robert Evans. So is that it? 588 00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:27,840 Speaker 1: I'm fortunately, I'm so sorry. All right, well I just 589 00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:31,560 Speaker 1: apologize really quick. If that's a lot to take in. No, 590 00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:33,880 Speaker 1: that was a good introduction. That was a good introduction. 591 00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:37,000 Speaker 1: We got across the gist. Who else is here with you? Robert, 592 00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:40,600 Speaker 1: that's a great question. Is Garrison here? Yeah? I think 593 00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:46,880 Speaker 1: they're here? Is Chris here? Is st Andrew here? I 594 00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:50,960 Speaker 1: am indeed excellent. Um, why don't you take over and 595 00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:54,800 Speaker 1: do and do my job for me? That sounds actually 596 00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:59,120 Speaker 1: good idea, fantastic. It was hopping and everybody, I M say, 597 00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:03,640 Speaker 1: I'm true. Back to guest host yet again. Um. Last 598 00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:08,839 Speaker 1: time we spoke about you know, soft climate change Nile 599 00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:14,719 Speaker 1: and continue the theme of me talking about whatever I 600 00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:19,160 Speaker 1: want to talk about. As for contractual obbligation, UM, today, 601 00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:21,840 Speaker 1: I wanted to explore a concept that I brought up 602 00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:26,680 Speaker 1: one of my recent videos, UM, self and community actualization. 603 00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:31,440 Speaker 1: Yeah right, So first we need to get in some context, 604 00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:35,360 Speaker 1: of course. UM. I mean when most people hear self actualization, 605 00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:40,120 Speaker 1: they probably think of Maslow's hierarchy of needs, right, the 606 00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:46,759 Speaker 1: famous permit that management uh staff tend to use up 607 00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:53,319 Speaker 1: in their offices and such Los Angeles yoga ladies. Uh. 608 00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:58,160 Speaker 1: The context in which I've heard self actualization the most. Yeah, yeah, 609 00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:03,719 Speaker 1: that whole group kind of you know yea. Um. But yeah, 610 00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:07,839 Speaker 1: so self actualization mass' hierarchy of needs, the old psych 611 00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:10,360 Speaker 1: one on one stuff, you know. I mean, it's traditionally 612 00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:14,360 Speaker 1: represented as a pyramid, but it was never how Maslow 613 00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:18,080 Speaker 1: himself actually depicted it. Um. It was actually something that 614 00:42:19,239 --> 00:42:25,120 Speaker 1: later in two preters of his work ran with and popularized. UM. 615 00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:27,200 Speaker 1: And so that as a result of that pyramid, there 616 00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:30,680 Speaker 1: are a lot of you know, critiques of Master's theory 617 00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:34,560 Speaker 1: that don't quite engage with his theory. Would rather engage 618 00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:40,200 Speaker 1: with like interpretations of his theory by other people. But um, 619 00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:42,759 Speaker 1: you know, I think it's still an interesting way to 620 00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:47,680 Speaker 1: depict human needs, and I think it's a good launching 621 00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:52,080 Speaker 1: point to start thinking about and start discussing, you know, 622 00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:56,560 Speaker 1: human needs. Um, what do you'll think you'll are on 623 00:42:56,600 --> 00:43:01,399 Speaker 1: the pyramid right now? Just for posterity sake, Oh, right 624 00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:06,279 Speaker 1: up on the tippy top. I mean, I'm like I've been. 625 00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:08,480 Speaker 1: I've been. I've been very lucky to do exactly like 626 00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:10,920 Speaker 1: what I want to do for a living most of 627 00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:14,279 Speaker 1: my life and and now I own goats, So it 628 00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:17,520 Speaker 1: doesn't get any better than that, including one absolute unit. 629 00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:26,239 Speaker 1: He's fucking massive. He's a chunky buddy. What about Karen? Yes, 630 00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:30,480 Speaker 1: I really don't know. I don't. I don't spend too 631 00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:33,640 Speaker 1: much time thinking about models like this, especially around kind 632 00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:37,719 Speaker 1: of my own my own goals, um and like where 633 00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:41,120 Speaker 1: I see myself. Um, but I don't know. I mean, 634 00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:45,360 Speaker 1: I'm I'm I'm doing like him. I'm I'm relatively stable 635 00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:49,440 Speaker 1: with my like actual physical needs. Um, so I guess yeah, 636 00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:52,600 Speaker 1: I'm just trying to figure out what I actually want 637 00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:55,239 Speaker 1: out of life. Like a lot of younger people, do. 638 00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:58,480 Speaker 1: I guess right, right, So I guess that's more on 639 00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:06,319 Speaker 1: the um esteem, yes, autization side of things. Yeah, And 640 00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:09,080 Speaker 1: it's harder because you can say, like, well, within the 641 00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:12,200 Speaker 1: context of like what is possible, I'm I'm I'm aware, 642 00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:14,840 Speaker 1: I want to be and I'm doing stuff that I 643 00:44:15,680 --> 00:44:18,840 Speaker 1: want to be doing, but also everything feels like a 644 00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:23,000 Speaker 1: disaster around me all the time because the time simon, 645 00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:25,799 Speaker 1: which makes it difficult to be is right. I was 646 00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:29,320 Speaker 1: about to say, is anybody really on the safety needs 647 00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:35,000 Speaker 1: category of of the pyramid? I mean some people like absolutely, yeah, 648 00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:39,719 Speaker 1: but this group, I mean yeah, like we we we are, right, 649 00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:43,960 Speaker 1: there's like a weird there's like a weird disassociation between 650 00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:49,080 Speaker 1: what's actually going on and what we know could be 651 00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:55,200 Speaker 1: going around on in like the larger sphere. That's fair. Yeah, yeah, 652 00:44:55,400 --> 00:44:57,440 Speaker 1: that's that's a very good way of thinking about it. 653 00:44:57,520 --> 00:45:00,680 Speaker 1: Is like, yeah, my immediate needs are met. Am I 654 00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:04,520 Speaker 1: very concerned that large chunks of the places I love 655 00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:08,920 Speaker 1: will be unlivable and you know, there will be that 656 00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:11,000 Speaker 1: we're kind of staring in the face of a variety 657 00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:15,480 Speaker 1: of calamities that that could uh make everything worse for 658 00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:18,160 Speaker 1: me and everybody I care about. Absolutely, but I can't 659 00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:20,080 Speaker 1: do anything about that, right. The other thing I was 660 00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:23,279 Speaker 1: going to point out is that with like with like, 661 00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:32,440 Speaker 1: the physio needs is that includes sleep. Yeah, this is 662 00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:35,120 Speaker 1: who you're talking about, being the sun shining down on 663 00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:38,000 Speaker 1: the pyramid and he gets up there, you know, the sleep. 664 00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:41,279 Speaker 1: The sleep scientists have had their pockets in big bed 665 00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:49,719 Speaker 1: for far too long, the cozy industrial complex problem. It's fine. 666 00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:51,360 Speaker 1: I was just gonna say something relatively. I was going 667 00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:54,000 Speaker 1: to see that, Um, you know, the pyramid, as we 668 00:45:54,040 --> 00:45:58,520 Speaker 1: are discovering in this conversation doesn't really accurately map out, 669 00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:03,839 Speaker 1: you know, me and human psychology really because I mean 670 00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:07,080 Speaker 1: not just because our brains aren't shaped like pyramids, but 671 00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:11,120 Speaker 1: also because at any point in time we can be 672 00:46:11,239 --> 00:46:16,160 Speaker 1: struggling multiple um sections and parts of the needs. So 673 00:46:16,239 --> 00:46:20,640 Speaker 1: for example, we could all be breathing air and drinking 674 00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:24,759 Speaker 1: water and having our food and stuff met right now. Um. 675 00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:28,799 Speaker 1: And you know, you might be like really respected and 676 00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:31,960 Speaker 1: stuff in your field. Um, and you might have a 677 00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:35,920 Speaker 1: certain could sense of self esteem and stuff. But then 678 00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:39,960 Speaker 1: at the same time, you know you're not in a 679 00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:44,040 Speaker 1: safe place, or you may be dealing with like a 680 00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:49,080 Speaker 1: debilitating health condition, or you maybe lack in certain resources 681 00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:53,759 Speaker 1: that you need to like thrive, right, So and then 682 00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:58,040 Speaker 1: or maybe you know you have here food, water, shelter, sleep, 683 00:46:58,080 --> 00:47:01,880 Speaker 1: all that, and you know you're secure and you have 684 00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:04,840 Speaker 1: what you need and whatever, but you have no friends. 685 00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:09,960 Speaker 1: You know, you have no intimacy, no family sense, a 686 00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:13,479 Speaker 1: connection with other people. So you're kind of like living 687 00:47:13,480 --> 00:47:17,239 Speaker 1: in this bubble, just floating through life, you know. I 688 00:47:17,239 --> 00:47:19,799 Speaker 1: mean your bubble is say, if it has what you need, 689 00:47:19,880 --> 00:47:28,080 Speaker 1: but there's not that social aspect. And I think what's 690 00:47:28,120 --> 00:47:31,399 Speaker 1: interesting about this is because as we start to talk 691 00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:35,239 Speaker 1: about massive hierarchy of needs, we start to see the 692 00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:42,080 Speaker 1: structural and societal um impact on you know, our psychology 693 00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:43,960 Speaker 1: and on our needs. Right, Because if you want to 694 00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:47,319 Speaker 1: talk about our safety needs, for example, well let's get 695 00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:49,480 Speaker 1: to stay to the to the bottom, to the basic. 696 00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:54,040 Speaker 1: If you wanna talk about physiological needs, what is now 697 00:47:54,040 --> 00:47:58,440 Speaker 1: a package and commodified product. Right. Food is something that 698 00:47:58,520 --> 00:48:01,560 Speaker 1: is inaccessible to many, not because we don't have enough food, 699 00:48:01,880 --> 00:48:07,120 Speaker 1: but because the distribution of it to meet the needs 700 00:48:07,120 --> 00:48:10,560 Speaker 1: of all. It's not what's prioritized on the capitalism, right, 701 00:48:11,080 --> 00:48:13,400 Speaker 1: there are people who are lacking in shelter, you know, 702 00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:17,520 Speaker 1: um and a lot of people are sleep deprived by 703 00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:21,759 Speaker 1: the systems we're living in. Yeah, m hmm. And the 704 00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:24,840 Speaker 1: same thing with safety. You know, we have based literally 705 00:48:24,880 --> 00:48:30,480 Speaker 1: threatened by climate change, and you know, we are atomized 706 00:48:30,520 --> 00:48:33,480 Speaker 1: from our relationships and stuff because so much of so 707 00:48:33,560 --> 00:48:36,480 Speaker 1: many of us have to work so hard, you know, 708 00:48:36,680 --> 00:48:40,560 Speaker 1: every day, five days a week or more, eight hours 709 00:48:40,640 --> 00:48:43,080 Speaker 1: or more, pretty and it really just strips us of 710 00:48:43,160 --> 00:48:46,560 Speaker 1: our social connections. And there's our esteem needs were sort 711 00:48:46,560 --> 00:48:50,000 Speaker 1: of stripped of that by you know, these commercial messages 712 00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:53,239 Speaker 1: that we get about, like you're not this unless you 713 00:48:53,320 --> 00:48:57,040 Speaker 1: have this, and bye bye bye kind of thing, right, 714 00:48:57,560 --> 00:49:00,400 Speaker 1: And in self actualization isn't even really what's for a 715 00:49:00,440 --> 00:49:02,760 Speaker 1: lot of people because they're still busy trying to reach 716 00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:06,239 Speaker 1: all those other things um or don't even have the 717 00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:09,440 Speaker 1: time to think about or they can become who they 718 00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:13,279 Speaker 1: are um and we get intoide a bit more later 719 00:49:13,360 --> 00:49:16,160 Speaker 1: on in this discussion, But they don't really have the 720 00:49:16,200 --> 00:49:18,759 Speaker 1: time of the sense to think about that because they've 721 00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:23,480 Speaker 1: been so restricted by their circumstances, right, and on top 722 00:49:23,520 --> 00:49:27,960 Speaker 1: of that, restricted by like the messages that they would 723 00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:29,960 Speaker 1: have gotten, you know, whether it be in the school 724 00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:32,839 Speaker 1: system or through ads or whatever. The case may be, 725 00:49:33,560 --> 00:49:36,799 Speaker 1: so I think looking at the pyramid, of course it's 726 00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:39,800 Speaker 1: incomplete and the issues with it, but it does illuminate 727 00:49:39,840 --> 00:49:43,160 Speaker 1: some interesting things that you know we're dealing with right now. 728 00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:47,560 Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, I definitely it's easier to self actualize 729 00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:50,880 Speaker 1: and have esteem once your needs are met. But I 730 00:49:50,920 --> 00:49:54,359 Speaker 1: think definitely there's an ability to jump around, especially when 731 00:49:54,400 --> 00:49:56,799 Speaker 1: you know you have like a large scale depression and 732 00:49:56,840 --> 00:50:01,960 Speaker 1: alienation and disassociation. It is to weird since where you 733 00:50:02,040 --> 00:50:04,640 Speaker 1: can kind of hop around the pyramid quite quite often. 734 00:50:04,719 --> 00:50:07,560 Speaker 1: Even if you have certain things met, this doesn't necessarily 735 00:50:07,560 --> 00:50:11,239 Speaker 1: mean you have something you know above or below. Yeah, 736 00:50:11,280 --> 00:50:14,800 Speaker 1: like I I I when it comes to like actual 737 00:50:15,320 --> 00:50:18,680 Speaker 1: people that I associate with, you know, all of whom 738 00:50:18,719 --> 00:50:21,680 Speaker 1: are folks who have to, like I have to work 739 00:50:21,880 --> 00:50:25,439 Speaker 1: in order to live. I don't think I've ever heard 740 00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:29,480 Speaker 1: anyone talk about happiness in terms of like self actualization. 741 00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:31,840 Speaker 1: It's always in terms of like when I get my 742 00:50:31,880 --> 00:50:34,120 Speaker 1: student loans paid off, you know, when I get my 743 00:50:34,360 --> 00:50:36,400 Speaker 1: when I'm able to take care of this health problem 744 00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:38,239 Speaker 1: that I have, Like when I have enough money. It's 745 00:50:38,280 --> 00:50:41,360 Speaker 1: basically everything boils down to for most people, when I 746 00:50:41,400 --> 00:50:45,279 Speaker 1: have enough money to not be as suffering as much 747 00:50:45,320 --> 00:50:48,320 Speaker 1: from this specific thing, or to not be scared about 748 00:50:48,360 --> 00:50:52,879 Speaker 1: not having enough money, um, which is I think more 749 00:50:52,920 --> 00:50:55,160 Speaker 1: would I get from people when they're talking about like 750 00:50:55,239 --> 00:50:59,040 Speaker 1: aspirational goals than I would like to do this thing 751 00:50:59,400 --> 00:51:04,520 Speaker 1: that that fulfills me as a person. Um. Yeah. Yeah, yes, 752 00:51:04,640 --> 00:51:07,719 Speaker 1: It's like like any any kind of actual self actualization 753 00:51:07,800 --> 00:51:10,799 Speaker 1: becomes this not just a luxury, but a luxury that's 754 00:51:10,960 --> 00:51:17,440 Speaker 1: just unimaginable. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Some people can't even imagine. 755 00:51:17,680 --> 00:51:19,840 Speaker 1: I know people who have just basically given up on 756 00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:23,319 Speaker 1: like ever being able to repay their loans, right Like 757 00:51:23,400 --> 00:51:26,319 Speaker 1: they've just resigned themselves like this is my life now, 758 00:51:26,520 --> 00:51:30,080 Speaker 1: all the tunity, this is this is it, you know, 759 00:51:30,400 --> 00:51:32,759 Speaker 1: and I can't blame them. Who can really blame them? 760 00:51:32,760 --> 00:51:35,560 Speaker 1: When that is the reality, you know for a lot 761 00:51:35,560 --> 00:51:38,400 Speaker 1: of people, taking themselves out to debt is not possible 762 00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:40,239 Speaker 1: even if they did get a whole bunch of the 763 00:51:40,280 --> 00:51:42,319 Speaker 1: money or able to like pay off a bit more 764 00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:44,680 Speaker 1: PU month. You know this love interest rates that're just 765 00:51:44,800 --> 00:51:50,239 Speaker 1: like so badly exploitative that they're basically suits for the 766 00:51:50,239 --> 00:51:53,560 Speaker 1: rest of lives. Of course, we had to have that 767 00:51:54,080 --> 00:51:58,560 Speaker 1: brief moment of Damn the system sucks. As is typical 768 00:51:58,719 --> 00:52:03,160 Speaker 1: on it could happen here. But I want to switch 769 00:52:03,160 --> 00:52:08,359 Speaker 1: shift attention now to another society and another culture that 770 00:52:08,640 --> 00:52:15,680 Speaker 1: has approached this human needs and human psychology and human 771 00:52:15,719 --> 00:52:20,440 Speaker 1: society thing differently. Right. Um, what's been coming to a 772 00:52:20,440 --> 00:52:25,440 Speaker 1: lot more people's attention lateally is that Abraham Maslow, Um 773 00:52:25,480 --> 00:52:29,640 Speaker 1: he was actually partially inspired to develop his theory by 774 00:52:29,719 --> 00:52:32,600 Speaker 1: his stay with the Six Seek of Blackfoot. And I 775 00:52:32,640 --> 00:52:35,520 Speaker 1: went into some of the details on the video on 776 00:52:35,560 --> 00:52:39,640 Speaker 1: my channel, um rethinking Maslow's hierarchy of needs psycho bit 777 00:52:39,640 --> 00:52:45,640 Speaker 1: more in there, but basically, um, what he discovers what 778 00:52:45,800 --> 00:52:49,360 Speaker 1: I get to in that video is that, well, firstly, 779 00:52:49,840 --> 00:52:53,400 Speaker 1: some cultures us as being one self actualized, right like 780 00:52:53,480 --> 00:52:57,640 Speaker 1: the Six Seek of Blackfoot, meaning that's the Blackfoot just 781 00:52:57,719 --> 00:53:00,040 Speaker 1: for a little bit of context, or and indid in 782 00:53:00,160 --> 00:53:04,279 Speaker 1: this people, I think confederation is how they tend to 783 00:53:04,920 --> 00:53:14,239 Speaker 1: refer to themselves in like Montana, I think Idaho, Um yeah, 784 00:53:14,480 --> 00:53:17,719 Speaker 1: up in Canada, Yeah, I kind of like Idaho, Montana 785 00:53:17,800 --> 00:53:21,560 Speaker 1: and parts of Canada, Um, like that's that's Blackfoot territory. 786 00:53:21,560 --> 00:53:25,120 Speaker 1: They were also Maslow spent time with them. L Run 787 00:53:25,200 --> 00:53:27,400 Speaker 1: Hubbard lied about having spent a lot of time with 788 00:53:27,440 --> 00:53:33,160 Speaker 1: the Blackfoot. So I didn't know that. I don't know. Yes, 789 00:53:34,080 --> 00:53:36,319 Speaker 1: there's a lot of scientology law if you have to 790 00:53:36,320 --> 00:53:40,840 Speaker 1: catch up one yeah, but um yeah, so you know, 791 00:53:40,880 --> 00:53:45,520 Speaker 1: with Maslow's model, self auctionalization is essentially, you know, self fulfillment, right, 792 00:53:45,800 --> 00:53:49,040 Speaker 1: the tendency for the individual to become more and more 793 00:53:49,080 --> 00:53:52,120 Speaker 1: what one is and to become everything that one is 794 00:53:52,120 --> 00:53:56,399 Speaker 1: capable of becoming. So us like fulfilling your potential as 795 00:53:56,880 --> 00:54:00,760 Speaker 1: a person, as a partner, as a parent, I talent, 796 00:54:01,000 --> 00:54:05,080 Speaker 1: as a artists, as a whatever, just fulfilling your potential 797 00:54:05,160 --> 00:54:08,200 Speaker 1: as a person. Right. But to say that we are 798 00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:13,360 Speaker 1: born self actualized, um, that framing will looks too seeing 799 00:54:13,440 --> 00:54:15,680 Speaker 1: us each as born in the world with a spark 800 00:54:15,760 --> 00:54:20,360 Speaker 1: of divinity, because of course this is tied into their spirituality. Um, 801 00:54:20,520 --> 00:54:23,160 Speaker 1: born for the spark of divinity and with a great 802 00:54:23,360 --> 00:54:28,840 Speaker 1: purpose embedded in us. And what self actualization is linked 803 00:54:28,840 --> 00:54:32,759 Speaker 1: to in these cultures inextricably linked to that is is 804 00:54:32,920 --> 00:54:37,960 Speaker 1: community actualization. Right. So community actualization is a concept that 805 00:54:38,040 --> 00:54:42,800 Speaker 1: places the actualized individual in the context of community. So 806 00:54:42,840 --> 00:54:46,200 Speaker 1: instead of just upholding the individual alone, which Maslow's hierarchy 807 00:54:46,200 --> 00:54:51,160 Speaker 1: has been critiqued for sort of doing. Community actualization incorporates 808 00:54:51,160 --> 00:54:55,400 Speaker 1: the web of relationships that supports each of us as individuals. Basically, 809 00:54:55,480 --> 00:55:01,200 Speaker 1: it recognizes that we cannot be self actualized solely as 810 00:55:01,239 --> 00:55:04,960 Speaker 1: individuals if there's not like a broader network over at, 811 00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:07,520 Speaker 1: a web that is supports us. You know, we're not 812 00:55:08,440 --> 00:55:13,319 Speaker 1: islands standing, you know. Yeah, yeah, we were, we were. 813 00:55:13,360 --> 00:55:15,600 Speaker 1: We were touching on on on that point a bit, 814 00:55:15,640 --> 00:55:19,560 Speaker 1: a bit previous, but less eloquently. Um, how yeah, it is, 815 00:55:19,600 --> 00:55:22,600 Speaker 1: it is. It's it's it's much easier to have the 816 00:55:22,640 --> 00:55:27,799 Speaker 1: ability to actualize your goals into into actions when you 817 00:55:27,840 --> 00:55:30,279 Speaker 1: are less alienated and you have and you have all 818 00:55:30,280 --> 00:55:35,319 Speaker 1: these other things around around a community. Yeah exactly. Is that. 819 00:55:35,560 --> 00:55:39,080 Speaker 1: I think like the lack of community self actualization is 820 00:55:39,520 --> 00:55:42,919 Speaker 1: kind of what we were talking about in terms of like, yeah, 821 00:55:42,960 --> 00:55:45,960 Speaker 1: things are seeing things are great for me inasmuch as 822 00:55:46,000 --> 00:55:49,400 Speaker 1: things are great, you know, in the system we live in, 823 00:55:49,480 --> 00:55:52,640 Speaker 1: But I I don't feel that, you know, Yeah, you 824 00:55:52,640 --> 00:55:55,439 Speaker 1: can look outside and you're like everything is actually really bad. 825 00:55:55,480 --> 00:55:57,520 Speaker 1: I'm just kind of in my little bubble and I'm 826 00:55:57,560 --> 00:56:00,319 Speaker 1: trying to expand my bubble to be around you know, 827 00:56:00,520 --> 00:56:04,439 Speaker 1: and to help more people, but it can be overwhelming sometimes. Yeah, 828 00:56:04,440 --> 00:56:06,319 Speaker 1: I mean it's only so much one person could do. 829 00:56:08,040 --> 00:56:10,520 Speaker 1: And that's kind of the whole point of community, right. 830 00:56:10,640 --> 00:56:14,640 Speaker 1: Our community supports our basic needs and basically equips us 831 00:56:14,680 --> 00:56:19,840 Speaker 1: to manifest our purpose. So it's a community would be 832 00:56:19,880 --> 00:56:22,719 Speaker 1: there too, for example, and we can get into this 833 00:56:22,760 --> 00:56:27,359 Speaker 1: a bit more designer model of education that supports us 834 00:56:27,520 --> 00:56:31,239 Speaker 1: in expressing our unique gifts. Right. Another part of the 835 00:56:31,280 --> 00:56:35,719 Speaker 1: Six Secret Black philosophy involves cultural perpetuity, where there's an 836 00:56:35,719 --> 00:56:39,160 Speaker 1: important consideration of those who came before and those who 837 00:56:39,160 --> 00:56:42,640 Speaker 1: are coming after, seven generations forward and seven generations backward, 838 00:56:42,680 --> 00:56:46,759 Speaker 1: as I had it explained to me. So that is 839 00:56:47,080 --> 00:56:50,560 Speaker 1: something that I think it would have been useful when 840 00:56:50,560 --> 00:56:54,720 Speaker 1: it came to discussions of um, you know, climate change. 841 00:56:55,400 --> 00:57:00,239 Speaker 1: And it's very relevant now because we are seeing the 842 00:57:00,280 --> 00:57:04,040 Speaker 1: older generations basically struggling and being like, you know, um, 843 00:57:04,120 --> 00:57:07,040 Speaker 1: well it's ends problem now you could take care of it. 844 00:57:07,200 --> 00:57:10,600 Speaker 1: You're in the future kids, all right? Well that yeah, 845 00:57:11,080 --> 00:57:14,160 Speaker 1: when they're basically on the download saying fuck them kids, 846 00:57:14,200 --> 00:57:18,960 Speaker 1: you know, yeah, but can I say that or yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, 847 00:57:18,920 --> 00:57:20,720 Speaker 1: you know, you can always say them kids, I say 848 00:57:20,760 --> 00:57:27,040 Speaker 1: that to Garrison all the time. All right, yeah, yeah, 849 00:57:27,120 --> 00:57:31,400 Speaker 1: But speaking of kids, UM, I think we could compare 850 00:57:31,400 --> 00:57:36,760 Speaker 1: and contrast basically how childhood is approached in our society 851 00:57:37,440 --> 00:57:40,320 Speaker 1: versus how it would be approached in society that values 852 00:57:40,880 --> 00:57:46,040 Speaker 1: community actualization. UM. I mean, and I'm just speaking from 853 00:57:46,040 --> 00:57:48,720 Speaker 1: my experience here. Of course, you're a free talk about 854 00:57:48,760 --> 00:57:53,600 Speaker 1: your own. UM. I from like primary school and stuff. 855 00:57:54,520 --> 00:57:59,320 Speaker 1: I remember it's constantly feeling like I had to compete 856 00:57:59,440 --> 00:58:03,080 Speaker 1: with my fellow um classmates. I mean, you know, I 857 00:58:03,160 --> 00:58:06,880 Speaker 1: was friendly and stuff with everybody and stuff, but since 858 00:58:06,920 --> 00:58:10,600 Speaker 1: I was like usually at or close to the top 859 00:58:10,640 --> 00:58:13,920 Speaker 1: of my class, I always felt this kind of pressure 860 00:58:14,000 --> 00:58:18,080 Speaker 1: to just beat them out and continue to be the 861 00:58:18,120 --> 00:58:21,040 Speaker 1: best gifted kid ever. You know. So there was a 862 00:58:21,080 --> 00:58:27,640 Speaker 1: sense of like constant competition with others that wasn't really 863 00:58:27,680 --> 00:58:32,800 Speaker 1: balanced out with a kind of, um collaborative sort of 864 00:58:32,840 --> 00:58:38,560 Speaker 1: approach to like basically trading us from like an early 865 00:58:38,600 --> 00:58:41,760 Speaker 1: age to learn to cooperate and work with people as 866 00:58:43,520 --> 00:58:47,840 Speaker 1: people and as comrades, you know, although comrade is a 867 00:58:47,840 --> 00:58:51,360 Speaker 1: way way to put it. But yeah, I just remember 868 00:58:51,400 --> 00:58:53,520 Speaker 1: there was a sort of sense of sort of atomization 869 00:58:53,840 --> 00:59:02,280 Speaker 1: that undercuted that sort of educational approach. I I feel 870 00:59:02,280 --> 00:59:06,600 Speaker 1: like that's pretty yuh universal and a lot of a 871 00:59:06,600 --> 00:59:10,920 Speaker 1: lot of parts of our modern world. We definitely really 872 00:59:11,880 --> 00:59:17,400 Speaker 1: embed that sense of competition into very young kids that 873 00:59:17,520 --> 00:59:20,440 Speaker 1: being in school or like wherever. Because yeah, that was 874 00:59:20,520 --> 00:59:24,320 Speaker 1: that was definitely my experience, even even like in private 875 00:59:24,360 --> 00:59:27,480 Speaker 1: school in Canada a long time ago. And I know 876 00:59:27,600 --> 00:59:31,120 Speaker 1: that's that's the thing across you know, across the ocean 877 00:59:31,160 --> 00:59:34,760 Speaker 1: as well, on on the other side of the pond. Yeah, 878 00:59:35,120 --> 00:59:42,680 Speaker 1: we are back. That doesn't sound like us, are we are? 879 00:59:42,680 --> 00:59:49,680 Speaker 1: We really back? Sorry, it's ten am um all right. 880 00:59:49,840 --> 00:59:55,640 Speaker 1: So when we look at like childhood and education and 881 00:59:55,680 --> 01:00:01,160 Speaker 1: stuff in society there would value community actualization. Um, what 882 01:00:01,240 --> 01:00:03,640 Speaker 1: sort of things do you guys think we would be 883 01:00:03,680 --> 01:00:07,880 Speaker 1: seeing in that sort of society? What sort of approaches 884 01:00:07,960 --> 01:00:10,840 Speaker 1: do you think would be embedded from an early age. 885 01:00:11,960 --> 01:00:14,240 Speaker 1: I'm trying to put it into words, so kind of 886 01:00:14,280 --> 01:00:17,720 Speaker 1: one of the things I'm I'm currently in a living 887 01:00:17,760 --> 01:00:22,080 Speaker 1: situation right where I have. I'm working with a group 888 01:00:22,080 --> 01:00:24,360 Speaker 1: of people on a chunk of land, and so every 889 01:00:24,360 --> 01:00:27,800 Speaker 1: week we do projects on it to make it better, um, 890 01:00:27,840 --> 01:00:32,200 Speaker 1: which is tremendously satisfying. And I think in a in 891 01:00:32,280 --> 01:00:35,960 Speaker 1: a society where that kind of self actualization like you've 892 01:00:35,960 --> 01:00:38,400 Speaker 1: been talking about was more common, kids would feel that 893 01:00:38,480 --> 01:00:43,400 Speaker 1: way about doing things, um that improve their community like 894 01:00:43,520 --> 01:00:46,200 Speaker 1: that that that that take care of the people around them, 895 01:00:46,240 --> 01:00:50,080 Speaker 1: that make you know, wherever they live a better place 896 01:00:50,160 --> 01:00:52,880 Speaker 1: to live, Like that would be. That would be in 897 01:00:52,920 --> 01:00:54,960 Speaker 1: the same way that, like I go out each weekend 898 01:00:55,000 --> 01:00:57,240 Speaker 1: thinking that will be a fun thing to do to 899 01:00:57,360 --> 01:00:59,800 Speaker 1: like to improve the place that I'm living. I think 900 01:00:59,800 --> 01:01:05,160 Speaker 1: that would be kind of, um a common feeling like 901 01:01:05,200 --> 01:01:06,920 Speaker 1: that would be a common activity as a kid to 902 01:01:06,960 --> 01:01:09,840 Speaker 1: go engage in projects like that. Yeah, and I mean 903 01:01:09,880 --> 01:01:12,960 Speaker 1: we already see children doing that, right except they do 904 01:01:13,000 --> 01:01:15,920 Speaker 1: it in minecraft. Yes, you know what I mean, Like 905 01:01:15,960 --> 01:01:19,320 Speaker 1: the implix is being directed somewhere currently. This isn't a 906 01:01:19,360 --> 01:01:21,320 Speaker 1: thing you have to This isn't a thing you have 907 01:01:21,360 --> 01:01:23,960 Speaker 1: to like splice in the kids little brains to make 908 01:01:24,000 --> 01:01:27,000 Speaker 1: them want to do it. Kids love making ship exactly. 909 01:01:27,240 --> 01:01:29,600 Speaker 1: Like if you give a child an opportunity and sort 910 01:01:29,600 --> 01:01:33,480 Speaker 1: of facility that like, they a very a lot of them. 911 01:01:33,600 --> 01:01:36,400 Speaker 1: I can't really generalize because I know some kids were 912 01:01:36,480 --> 01:01:38,200 Speaker 1: like you do what you had to do. I want 913 01:01:38,240 --> 01:01:40,400 Speaker 1: to stay in my corner but there a lot of 914 01:01:40,480 --> 01:01:43,200 Speaker 1: kids as well who would be like very very willing 915 01:01:43,240 --> 01:01:47,680 Speaker 1: to be helpful, you know, they really like they just 916 01:01:48,000 --> 01:01:52,280 Speaker 1: a door being a helper and being someone who can support, 917 01:01:52,280 --> 01:01:54,240 Speaker 1: whether it be in the kitchen, you know, with like 918 01:01:54,280 --> 01:01:57,160 Speaker 1: a little broom or whatever, sweeping, whatever the case may be. 919 01:01:57,160 --> 01:01:59,280 Speaker 1: There some my kids don't want to be part of 920 01:01:59,280 --> 01:02:02,080 Speaker 1: a community, you know, because we are social atomos um. 921 01:02:02,120 --> 01:02:07,080 Speaker 1: It's just that right now it's directed at like minecraft, 922 01:02:07,120 --> 01:02:11,200 Speaker 1: supers or whatever. Yeah, I think one of the things 923 01:02:11,200 --> 01:02:13,320 Speaker 1: that I would really focus on, because this is just 924 01:02:13,400 --> 01:02:17,120 Speaker 1: kind of in my experience, is teaching young kids how 925 01:02:17,280 --> 01:02:21,280 Speaker 1: to cook, um and then having them cook or at 926 01:02:21,360 --> 01:02:24,320 Speaker 1: least help cook food for other people. I think it's 927 01:02:24,320 --> 01:02:27,760 Speaker 1: a really great kind of skill to learn. But also 928 01:02:27,840 --> 01:02:30,360 Speaker 1: it it does this weird thing to your brain when 929 01:02:30,400 --> 01:02:32,920 Speaker 1: you do. That's like you you get very happy when 930 01:02:32,960 --> 01:02:35,720 Speaker 1: you cook food for for other people. And I think 931 01:02:35,720 --> 01:02:39,560 Speaker 1: it's it's a really good kind of emotional impulse to 932 01:02:39,760 --> 01:02:42,000 Speaker 1: give kids. It's like, hey, this is you can make 933 01:02:42,000 --> 01:02:45,880 Speaker 1: people feel good by doing things for them, um, And 934 01:02:46,000 --> 01:02:48,080 Speaker 1: because that makes you feel good and it makes them 935 01:02:48,120 --> 01:02:50,520 Speaker 1: feel good, and then that really builds that whole sense 936 01:02:50,560 --> 01:02:57,120 Speaker 1: of community. So yeah, I see. Yeah, yeah, some kids 937 01:02:57,160 --> 01:03:00,720 Speaker 1: could be like but like both self lessness, but it 938 01:03:00,760 --> 01:03:05,800 Speaker 1: also teaches you to like do stuff for yourself as well. Right, 939 01:03:05,840 --> 01:03:09,600 Speaker 1: it's a good skill to be self also be self sustaining. 940 01:03:09,920 --> 01:03:12,160 Speaker 1: So I think that's that's why I really enjoy teaching 941 01:03:12,240 --> 01:03:14,760 Speaker 1: kids cooking. Um. I used to I I used to 942 01:03:14,760 --> 01:03:17,640 Speaker 1: be a culinary instructor because I'm really just passionate about 943 01:03:18,280 --> 01:03:23,080 Speaker 1: that specific thing. Yeah, I mean for me personally, UM, 944 01:03:23,240 --> 01:03:27,800 Speaker 1: I develop an aneurism whenever anyone's in the kitchen with me. Yes, 945 01:03:29,040 --> 01:03:31,200 Speaker 1: I there is definitely moments where if there's too many 946 01:03:31,200 --> 01:03:34,840 Speaker 1: people in a kitchen, that is frustrating. But if if 947 01:03:34,880 --> 01:03:36,480 Speaker 1: you do it right, you can get you can get 948 01:03:36,480 --> 01:03:40,040 Speaker 1: a thirteen year old cooking you an entire like really 949 01:03:40,280 --> 01:03:43,800 Speaker 1: really nice holiday dinner. Um, which is which is what 950 01:03:43,840 --> 01:03:45,400 Speaker 1: I was doing when I was thirteen. I was cooking 951 01:03:45,680 --> 01:03:48,520 Speaker 1: all of the holiday dinners for my entire family, um, 952 01:03:48,560 --> 01:03:51,760 Speaker 1: because I just I wanted to learn cooking. So it's 953 01:03:51,800 --> 01:03:54,280 Speaker 1: it's definitely possible if you're a parent and you want 954 01:03:54,360 --> 01:03:56,960 Speaker 1: less time in the kitchen, uh, teach your kid how 955 01:03:57,000 --> 01:03:59,880 Speaker 1: to cook. I mean I come from a family of 956 01:04:00,040 --> 01:04:03,480 Speaker 1: child cooks, right, I remember um, this one time, I 957 01:04:03,480 --> 01:04:05,640 Speaker 1: think I was making like a cart cake with my 958 01:04:05,760 --> 01:04:10,440 Speaker 1: mom um. But I was used to like licking my 959 01:04:10,520 --> 01:04:14,120 Speaker 1: fingers when you know, you make that cookie cookie dough 960 01:04:14,200 --> 01:04:19,680 Speaker 1: and stuff. But I licked my fingers when the when 961 01:04:19,680 --> 01:04:24,040 Speaker 1: I cracked the egg, she was like, stuff, you can't 962 01:04:24,040 --> 01:04:26,480 Speaker 1: do that, you know, So I just remember that was 963 01:04:26,480 --> 01:04:28,640 Speaker 1: one of the experiences in the kitchen ready stood out 964 01:04:28,680 --> 01:04:35,120 Speaker 1: to me. Lessons lessons will be learned about, like bacteria, yeah, 965 01:04:35,160 --> 01:04:40,280 Speaker 1: you know, it'sience, knives you get get to learn how 966 01:04:40,280 --> 01:04:42,520 Speaker 1: to use knives, get to learn about heat. You know, 967 01:04:42,600 --> 01:04:44,640 Speaker 1: there's a lot of a lot of good lessons you 968 01:04:44,640 --> 01:04:48,560 Speaker 1: can learn inside. I can get firing safety, chemistry, you know, 969 01:04:49,320 --> 01:04:52,360 Speaker 1: of stuff all mixed in there, you know, even math, 970 01:04:53,160 --> 01:04:56,200 Speaker 1: even absolutely fractions. It's one of the only times I 971 01:04:56,280 --> 01:04:59,880 Speaker 1: use fractions is in cooking and baking. Yeah, I mean, 972 01:05:01,000 --> 01:05:03,520 Speaker 1: as embarrassing as it is, I use Google when I 973 01:05:03,520 --> 01:05:06,800 Speaker 1: want to confute measurements still, but I mean it's just there. 974 01:05:06,840 --> 01:05:10,080 Speaker 1: It's more convenient. But yeah, I absolutely agree that example, 975 01:05:10,160 --> 01:05:12,920 Speaker 1: you know, like the use of like cooking lessons and 976 01:05:12,960 --> 01:05:18,960 Speaker 1: that sort of thing to support um, to support like 977 01:05:19,280 --> 01:05:24,720 Speaker 1: kids self actualization. At also the community actualization because of 978 01:05:24,760 --> 01:05:28,360 Speaker 1: my experience, and the thing I default to is different 979 01:05:28,440 --> 01:05:32,080 Speaker 1: versions of like the youth liberation argument. But because of 980 01:05:32,080 --> 01:05:34,600 Speaker 1: how people have been using that term on Twitter right now, 981 01:05:34,680 --> 01:05:36,720 Speaker 1: I don't want to talk about it because it's been 982 01:05:36,800 --> 01:05:39,560 Speaker 1: causing a lot of like really dumb fighting about what 983 01:05:39,600 --> 01:05:41,880 Speaker 1: that term actually means and who coined it and like 984 01:05:41,960 --> 01:05:44,000 Speaker 1: that kind of stuff. But that's kind of where I 985 01:05:44,160 --> 01:05:48,520 Speaker 1: default to in terms of like what self actualization could 986 01:05:48,560 --> 01:05:51,440 Speaker 1: be in a community setting. Youth liberation is one of 987 01:05:51,520 --> 01:05:56,880 Speaker 1: those things that I'm really passionate about UM, and I 988 01:05:56,880 --> 01:06:00,000 Speaker 1: honestly don't know who coined it or what discourse stopped 989 01:06:00,000 --> 01:06:03,600 Speaker 1: and about it right now, but it definitely UM informs 990 01:06:03,600 --> 01:06:06,640 Speaker 1: my approach and ends up influence and like a lot 991 01:06:06,720 --> 01:06:10,040 Speaker 1: of the things that I discuss, Like when if I 992 01:06:10,160 --> 01:06:14,120 Speaker 1: talk about like an issue or whatever UM in society, 993 01:06:14,520 --> 01:06:17,920 Speaker 1: a lot of times it really boils down or starts 994 01:06:18,560 --> 01:06:21,920 Speaker 1: from an early age, it starts through the education system, 995 01:06:22,080 --> 01:06:26,720 Speaker 1: or it's foster there or incubated there. So I think UM, 996 01:06:27,440 --> 01:06:30,080 Speaker 1: a lot more discussion should be happening about, you know, 997 01:06:30,920 --> 01:06:35,960 Speaker 1: the place of young people and the education system and 998 01:06:36,000 --> 01:06:40,240 Speaker 1: stuff UM, alongside, of course all the other struggles and 999 01:06:40,400 --> 01:06:43,880 Speaker 1: discussions and discourses about struggles we've been happen. Yeah, I'm 1000 01:06:43,920 --> 01:06:50,120 Speaker 1: trying to view like anarchistic like liberatory frameworks. It's like 1001 01:06:50,200 --> 01:06:54,560 Speaker 1: trying to achieve that self actualization and to some degree 1002 01:06:54,600 --> 01:06:56,520 Speaker 1: like the the like a steam level, and then also 1003 01:06:56,600 --> 01:06:59,400 Speaker 1: like the community and belonging level. Um, even if you 1004 01:06:59,440 --> 01:07:02,320 Speaker 1: don't have all of your physical needs met all the time, 1005 01:07:03,000 --> 01:07:06,560 Speaker 1: is how these types of frameworks can be can almost 1006 01:07:06,560 --> 01:07:09,800 Speaker 1: just like jump around that and be like, despite me 1007 01:07:09,920 --> 01:07:14,240 Speaker 1: not having all of these base needs met, if I 1008 01:07:14,240 --> 01:07:17,360 Speaker 1: if I have like a radical model of the world, 1009 01:07:17,800 --> 01:07:21,240 Speaker 1: I can still try to achieve that type of freedom 1010 01:07:21,280 --> 01:07:24,920 Speaker 1: because I can work outside the box to get it. Um. Yeah, 1011 01:07:25,240 --> 01:07:27,120 Speaker 1: and I think that that that's kind of what I 1012 01:07:27,160 --> 01:07:29,440 Speaker 1: was I was trying to get at, is at least 1013 01:07:29,480 --> 01:07:31,920 Speaker 1: on you know, like a like a like whether it 1014 01:07:31,960 --> 01:07:34,160 Speaker 1: be like a youth lib framework or just like general 1015 01:07:34,200 --> 01:07:38,680 Speaker 1: like radical anarchism in general. Yeah, And I mean parts 1016 01:07:38,680 --> 01:07:42,880 Speaker 1: of thinking outside the box involves, you know, looking at 1017 01:07:43,120 --> 01:07:45,919 Speaker 1: other people who have thought outside of the box, who 1018 01:07:45,960 --> 01:07:52,600 Speaker 1: have reinvented and reconsidered and sort of transformed their approach 1019 01:07:52,680 --> 01:07:58,720 Speaker 1: to things like education, child care and really all the 1020 01:07:58,720 --> 01:08:01,480 Speaker 1: aspects of society that we take for granted as you know, 1021 01:08:01,600 --> 01:08:05,240 Speaker 1: just being a certain way. You know, Um, when we 1022 01:08:05,280 --> 01:08:09,080 Speaker 1: talk about things like education and childhood in the place 1023 01:08:09,120 --> 01:08:12,840 Speaker 1: that plays and community actualization, I send to think a 1024 01:08:12,920 --> 01:08:14,720 Speaker 1: lot about, you know, all the things we can do 1025 01:08:14,760 --> 01:08:17,479 Speaker 1: to not fit into into capitalist smooths. You know, it's 1026 01:08:17,520 --> 01:08:21,320 Speaker 1: really facilitate folks potential, not just really cooking classes for example, 1027 01:08:21,760 --> 01:08:25,640 Speaker 1: but even through you know, workshops and field trips. I 1028 01:08:25,640 --> 01:08:27,599 Speaker 1: mean field trips. Now, we're just kind of like this 1029 01:08:28,880 --> 01:08:31,080 Speaker 1: saying that you know, kids go to from time to 1030 01:08:31,120 --> 01:08:33,640 Speaker 1: time and they after walking a single fire line and 1031 01:08:34,760 --> 01:08:38,120 Speaker 1: all these different things. But what I envision when I 1032 01:08:38,200 --> 01:08:41,720 Speaker 1: think of you know, learning is something walk into, Like 1033 01:08:43,479 --> 01:08:47,080 Speaker 1: less restriction to just the four walls of a classroom 1034 01:08:47,680 --> 01:08:51,120 Speaker 1: and more the whole world is your classroom. You know, 1035 01:08:51,200 --> 01:08:54,120 Speaker 1: the whole world is a place where you know, you 1036 01:08:54,200 --> 01:08:58,600 Speaker 1: can explore, and you can room and you can develop yourself. 1037 01:08:59,080 --> 01:09:05,200 Speaker 1: You know, with out all these barriers and controls replace on, 1038 01:09:05,439 --> 01:09:12,160 Speaker 1: kids end up suffocating their imagination of what things can be. 1039 01:09:12,520 --> 01:09:15,000 Speaker 1: And I mean when you have that sort of educational 1040 01:09:15,120 --> 01:09:18,280 Speaker 1: model where you know, the youth are able to explore 1041 01:09:18,320 --> 01:09:22,600 Speaker 1: different avenues and direct their own education, routes. You know, 1042 01:09:22,760 --> 01:09:25,880 Speaker 1: you also end up, which is what has happened in 1043 01:09:26,840 --> 01:09:31,160 Speaker 1: education models that we've seen throughout many different cultures of 1044 01:09:31,160 --> 01:09:35,720 Speaker 1: the world. You see that it facilitates relationships with the 1045 01:09:35,760 --> 01:09:39,639 Speaker 1: community members, right, and everybody benefits because you have, for example, 1046 01:09:40,280 --> 01:09:46,280 Speaker 1: becausn't exactly something like apprenticeships, and you have you know, 1047 01:09:46,439 --> 01:09:49,479 Speaker 1: for example, people getting support from the kids in the 1048 01:09:49,600 --> 01:09:55,879 Speaker 1: kitchen or you know, in the workshop or in library 1049 01:09:56,040 --> 01:09:58,080 Speaker 1: or whatever the case may be. And not only the 1050 01:09:58,160 --> 01:10:02,040 Speaker 1: kids about paying their skills, but they're also developing relationships 1051 01:10:02,120 --> 01:10:05,120 Speaker 1: with different members of the community with different backgrounds, with 1052 01:10:05,160 --> 01:10:10,080 Speaker 1: different experiences. And it released serves almost as I see 1053 01:10:10,120 --> 01:10:13,960 Speaker 1: it as a way to God against um, this sort 1054 01:10:14,000 --> 01:10:17,280 Speaker 1: of style of parenting where that we just kind of 1055 01:10:17,320 --> 01:10:21,600 Speaker 1: seeing popularized lately, where like the child is basically the 1056 01:10:21,680 --> 01:10:26,439 Speaker 1: exclusive property of the parents and you can't tell anybody 1057 01:10:26,560 --> 01:10:29,840 Speaker 1: how to raise their child and the parent always knows best, 1058 01:10:29,880 --> 01:10:32,360 Speaker 1: and that kind of approach. I think it's a good 1059 01:10:32,920 --> 01:10:35,639 Speaker 1: and to do to that because the child being exposed 1060 01:10:35,640 --> 01:10:39,320 Speaker 1: to a lot more of life and of people. UM. 1061 01:10:40,040 --> 01:10:44,160 Speaker 1: I think that to me, UM is the sort of 1062 01:10:44,360 --> 01:10:49,439 Speaker 1: youth liberation route that I see developing. It requires of 1063 01:10:49,560 --> 01:10:56,840 Speaker 1: course a total transmission. But you know, no proposal could 1064 01:10:56,840 --> 01:11:01,679 Speaker 1: really be approach and isolation. Yeah, and it's it's easier 1065 01:11:01,760 --> 01:11:04,639 Speaker 1: to achieve when you around other right, It's it's easier 1066 01:11:04,640 --> 01:11:06,799 Speaker 1: to once if if you are already in a community 1067 01:11:06,840 --> 01:11:09,720 Speaker 1: where these things can be fostered, then it's a lot 1068 01:11:10,040 --> 01:11:13,960 Speaker 1: you know, it's a lot less of a lofty goal. Yeah. 1069 01:11:14,640 --> 01:11:17,400 Speaker 1: I think that there's a kind of interesting I don't 1070 01:11:17,439 --> 01:11:19,559 Speaker 1: know if case studies the right word, but there's part 1071 01:11:19,600 --> 01:11:24,120 Speaker 1: of Italy that had a really really long running like 1072 01:11:24,280 --> 01:11:27,680 Speaker 1: anarchist education experiments, and so they're basically able to sort 1073 01:11:27,680 --> 01:11:32,360 Speaker 1: of refund local school systems and it worked. But you know, 1074 01:11:32,400 --> 01:11:34,640 Speaker 1: and they produced a bunch of really good schools, and 1075 01:11:34,880 --> 01:11:36,240 Speaker 1: you know, the schools are based in sort of like 1076 01:11:36,600 --> 01:11:38,920 Speaker 1: cooperative learning etcetera, etcetera, And you know, I mean the 1077 01:11:38,960 --> 01:11:41,800 Speaker 1: model still exists today. But and you know, it's like, yeah, 1078 01:11:41,800 --> 01:11:43,680 Speaker 1: they made some of the best schools in Europe, but 1079 01:11:44,840 --> 01:11:48,880 Speaker 1: the society around them didn't change, and so sort of bizarrely, 1080 01:11:49,000 --> 01:11:53,320 Speaker 1: they ended up making these schools that like produced you know, 1081 01:11:53,479 --> 01:11:55,880 Speaker 1: they're they're very good schools. They produced extremely good students, 1082 01:11:55,920 --> 01:11:59,600 Speaker 1: but then they also like produced an extremely you know, 1083 01:12:00,040 --> 01:12:04,519 Speaker 1: well educated and good like capitalist candre basically. And so 1084 01:12:04,680 --> 01:12:06,560 Speaker 1: I think I think there's a sort of you know, 1085 01:12:06,640 --> 01:12:09,040 Speaker 1: if if we go back to sort of the community 1086 01:12:09,080 --> 01:12:11,920 Speaker 1: aspect of this is like, yeah, there's there's a sense 1087 01:12:11,960 --> 01:12:17,400 Speaker 1: to which even even if you have you know, you 1088 01:12:17,479 --> 01:12:19,760 Speaker 1: get some form of self actualization, you get some form 1089 01:12:19,800 --> 01:12:22,920 Speaker 1: of sort of you know, community and cooperative like education 1090 01:12:22,960 --> 01:12:26,280 Speaker 1: for children and stuff like that, the whole society has 1091 01:12:26,360 --> 01:12:28,479 Speaker 1: to move with it or otherwise you just wind up 1092 01:12:28,520 --> 01:12:33,360 Speaker 1: sort of feeding the beast more effectively. Yeah, yeah, I 1093 01:12:33,400 --> 01:12:35,679 Speaker 1: mean that is that you you also see that kind 1094 01:12:35,720 --> 01:12:38,240 Speaker 1: of problem with like the we wred guys, right, the 1095 01:12:39,000 --> 01:12:43,200 Speaker 1: Adam Newman and and and h the two co founders 1096 01:12:43,240 --> 01:12:45,559 Speaker 1: of that came out of an Adam's case at kibbutz 1097 01:12:45,720 --> 01:12:48,040 Speaker 1: in Israel, which you know started with from kind of 1098 01:12:48,120 --> 01:12:51,479 Speaker 1: socialist foundations, and the other founder had grown up in 1099 01:12:51,560 --> 01:12:54,240 Speaker 1: like a commune in rural or again. Uh, and they 1100 01:12:54,320 --> 01:12:57,960 Speaker 1: both wound up making like this ultra capitalist real estate company. 1101 01:12:58,080 --> 01:13:01,680 Speaker 1: So yeah, if you it's it's you know, there's a 1102 01:13:01,760 --> 01:13:04,320 Speaker 1: lot that's said, and there's there's a lot of value 1103 01:13:04,360 --> 01:13:08,760 Speaker 1: and kind of like carving out sections of culture for 1104 01:13:09,080 --> 01:13:11,960 Speaker 1: the things you believe in to try to um get 1105 01:13:12,080 --> 01:13:14,439 Speaker 1: shelter from the storm. But yeah, as you were kind 1106 01:13:14,439 --> 01:13:18,160 Speaker 1: of noting, Chris, UM, it does. It does also just 1107 01:13:18,320 --> 01:13:22,760 Speaker 1: wind up kind of reinforcing the dominant social system. UM. 1108 01:13:22,920 --> 01:13:27,000 Speaker 1: If there's not a kind of more basic upheaval of 1109 01:13:27,439 --> 01:13:30,760 Speaker 1: the way things work. Yeah, if there's no you know, 1110 01:13:30,960 --> 01:13:35,040 Speaker 1: political philosophy and your goodness and there's no connection with 1111 01:13:35,200 --> 01:13:38,920 Speaker 1: you know, broader social movements and sort of confederation with 1112 01:13:39,280 --> 01:13:43,000 Speaker 1: other projects, you know, it could very easily be coopted, 1113 01:13:43,200 --> 01:13:46,680 Speaker 1: you know, in isolation. And I guess I guess that's 1114 01:13:46,800 --> 01:13:49,160 Speaker 1: you know, like that that's what happened to self actualization 1115 01:13:49,320 --> 01:13:51,760 Speaker 1: is a concept for the most part, is that it 1116 01:13:51,840 --> 01:13:57,479 Speaker 1: got taken over by kind of weird grifters and yeah, 1117 01:13:58,680 --> 01:14:04,640 Speaker 1: like self care. Yeah yeah, and take these concepts and 1118 01:14:04,800 --> 01:14:09,400 Speaker 1: there's sort of twisted and transformed into um, you know, 1119 01:14:09,520 --> 01:14:16,479 Speaker 1: capitalists hands it's even something like um like with there's 1120 01:14:16,680 --> 01:14:21,400 Speaker 1: been some interesting discussions happening surrounding like luxury and what 1121 01:14:21,720 --> 01:14:26,760 Speaker 1: luxury means around certain within certain circles on Twitter UM 1122 01:14:27,760 --> 01:14:34,519 Speaker 1: and Kim Kimberly Foster from for Harriet Excellent YouTube channel UM. 1123 01:14:34,840 --> 01:14:38,920 Speaker 1: She mentioned that to her at least is long but 1124 01:14:39,120 --> 01:14:41,760 Speaker 1: really good video. She spoke about how lux read to 1125 01:14:41,800 --> 01:14:46,040 Speaker 1: who is basically, um, you know, finding the ability to 1126 01:14:46,200 --> 01:14:48,840 Speaker 1: rest where you need to rest and to be able 1127 01:14:48,880 --> 01:14:55,960 Speaker 1: to be supported. Um, whereas luxury now, but luxury has 1128 01:14:56,160 --> 01:15:02,240 Speaker 1: quite popular understanding, it is more so about consumption and consumerism. 1129 01:15:02,760 --> 01:15:06,720 Speaker 1: So even when you have something where like and this 1130 01:15:06,920 --> 01:15:10,719 Speaker 1: is specific to um, the black experience of course, because 1131 01:15:10,760 --> 01:15:13,280 Speaker 1: for a long time, you know, black women have been 1132 01:15:13,360 --> 01:15:19,160 Speaker 1: expected to, like um, toil and labor and support not 1133 01:15:19,240 --> 01:15:23,040 Speaker 1: only the communities but also engineer as slavery also you know, 1134 01:15:23,120 --> 01:15:26,800 Speaker 1: their white masters and that kind of thing. Um, there's 1135 01:15:26,880 --> 01:15:29,719 Speaker 1: there was a push for the Black women Luxury movement 1136 01:15:29,960 --> 01:15:35,840 Speaker 1: to sort of reclaim you know, a space for black 1137 01:15:35,920 --> 01:15:38,880 Speaker 1: women to just be able to enjoy themselves and you know, 1138 01:15:39,000 --> 01:15:44,240 Speaker 1: be themselves. But that quickly became something that it's just like, 1139 01:15:44,760 --> 01:15:48,439 Speaker 1: you know, just get the bag. Um, just the sort 1140 01:15:48,479 --> 01:15:54,799 Speaker 1: of hyper capitalists, hyper consumerist, bougie kind of approach to luxury, 1141 01:15:55,400 --> 01:15:57,840 Speaker 1: where the original route to the movement, which was about 1142 01:15:58,760 --> 01:16:01,960 Speaker 1: finding rest, sort of lost. And I mean that's a 1143 01:16:02,000 --> 01:16:03,920 Speaker 1: bit of a tangent. So I'll try to connect that 1144 01:16:04,040 --> 01:16:06,360 Speaker 1: back to what we're saying. Um. I think when it 1145 01:16:06,439 --> 01:16:10,680 Speaker 1: comes to things like rest and the ability to rest. UM, 1146 01:16:11,840 --> 01:16:18,960 Speaker 1: I think that that's can only really be found in community, 1147 01:16:20,160 --> 01:16:23,960 Speaker 1: and if there's a lack of communit community support to 1148 01:16:24,360 --> 01:16:26,519 Speaker 1: you know, pick up the slack when you need to 1149 01:16:26,600 --> 01:16:28,519 Speaker 1: rest and you need to revive yourself and you just 1150 01:16:28,680 --> 01:16:34,519 Speaker 1: need to recharge UM. Barring that, of course, resheople can 1151 01:16:34,680 --> 01:16:37,560 Speaker 1: pay for a sort of a full community in a 1152 01:16:37,680 --> 01:16:40,799 Speaker 1: sense of having you know, nannies and maids and butlers 1153 01:16:40,920 --> 01:16:43,880 Speaker 1: and tutors and all these people to basically support their 1154 01:16:43,920 --> 01:16:49,040 Speaker 1: lifestyles and support their freedom. But most people lack that. 1155 01:16:49,600 --> 01:16:53,599 Speaker 1: And so I think part of stypt of actualization, as 1156 01:16:54,280 --> 01:17:01,160 Speaker 1: you're mentioning earlier, UM, it's ability to rest, and I 1157 01:17:01,240 --> 01:17:06,600 Speaker 1: see that as linked with community. Yeah, I think I 1158 01:17:06,600 --> 01:17:10,559 Speaker 1: think that definitely ties into our recent discussions on anti 1159 01:17:10,640 --> 01:17:14,680 Speaker 1: work and how anti work is a lot more feasible 1160 01:17:14,880 --> 01:17:18,519 Speaker 1: if you are in a community support like network and 1161 01:17:18,640 --> 01:17:21,960 Speaker 1: right and you have people to rely on. UM and 1162 01:17:22,080 --> 01:17:25,280 Speaker 1: definitely like you know, self actualization as the ability to 1163 01:17:26,920 --> 01:17:29,800 Speaker 1: like to just rest when you want to, it's a 1164 01:17:29,960 --> 01:17:35,320 Speaker 1: very uh, it's very powerful thing and very enticing, and 1165 01:17:35,439 --> 01:17:38,720 Speaker 1: that definitely plays into the whole like anti work like 1166 01:17:40,240 --> 01:17:44,519 Speaker 1: idea I guess yeah. I mean to connect the anti 1167 01:17:44,840 --> 01:17:49,879 Speaker 1: thing to just general you know, unonization and striking efforts. 1168 01:17:50,040 --> 01:17:52,719 Speaker 1: Right Like, I was seeing people calling for a general 1169 01:17:52,840 --> 01:17:56,840 Speaker 1: strike the other day, um, as if we haven't been 1170 01:17:56,920 --> 01:18:00,400 Speaker 1: a lesson, but um they were calling for that, But 1171 01:18:00,960 --> 01:18:05,040 Speaker 1: what they were not realizing was that without these structures 1172 01:18:05,080 --> 01:18:08,800 Speaker 1: in place to support striking efforts, it's not gonna be enough. 1173 01:18:08,880 --> 01:18:13,400 Speaker 1: You know, if people cannot support themselves and their families, 1174 01:18:14,640 --> 01:18:17,200 Speaker 1: the strike cannot last. You know, it's only with this 1175 01:18:17,439 --> 01:18:21,439 Speaker 1: community and the community coming together to support people can 1176 01:18:21,560 --> 01:18:23,960 Speaker 1: they you know, not just fight for the rights in 1177 01:18:24,080 --> 01:18:28,320 Speaker 1: the striking and unization context, but also you know, to 1178 01:18:28,439 --> 01:18:32,000 Speaker 1: be able to find leisure, to find rest, as with 1179 01:18:32,120 --> 01:18:35,760 Speaker 1: the anti work discussion, and so sort of turn this 1180 01:18:36,000 --> 01:18:41,800 Speaker 1: to a discussion on organizing more generally. Um. You know, 1181 01:18:41,960 --> 01:18:45,200 Speaker 1: we are, at the end of the day, a very 1182 01:18:45,360 --> 01:18:51,400 Speaker 1: communal ape and if we were to just focus on 1183 01:18:51,439 --> 01:18:57,800 Speaker 1: ourselves as individuals, um, I think as capitalism, in its 1184 01:18:57,960 --> 01:19:01,840 Speaker 1: anti social nature exp access to I think we would 1185 01:19:01,840 --> 01:19:06,439 Speaker 1: all suffer as a result. You know, our goal as people, 1186 01:19:06,520 --> 01:19:09,800 Speaker 1: as any one person, should be not just to you 1187 01:19:09,880 --> 01:19:14,960 Speaker 1: knowles ourselves, but also to enrich the worlds of those 1188 01:19:15,040 --> 01:19:21,800 Speaker 1: around us, and to cultivate the community that as we 1189 01:19:22,000 --> 01:19:26,439 Speaker 1: support they you know, will support us. And I mean 1190 01:19:27,040 --> 01:19:33,719 Speaker 1: as we prefigure this sort of you know culture of support, 1191 01:19:34,080 --> 01:19:40,240 Speaker 1: of you know, care and of empathy and that sort 1192 01:19:40,280 --> 01:19:45,640 Speaker 1: of thing. Um, I think our organizing efforts would as 1193 01:19:45,680 --> 01:19:48,800 Speaker 1: a results be a lot more powerful, be a lot 1194 01:19:48,840 --> 01:19:52,960 Speaker 1: more potent, um, be a lot more enriching, and a 1195 01:19:53,040 --> 01:20:00,680 Speaker 1: lot more imaginative. So and I sending any of you 1196 01:20:00,760 --> 01:20:03,599 Speaker 1: have anything else to see, um to sort of bring 1197 01:20:03,640 --> 01:20:12,559 Speaker 1: this to a close. Um, I just want to leave, um, 1198 01:20:13,000 --> 01:20:15,400 Speaker 1: leave us with some food for thought in terms of 1199 01:20:15,479 --> 01:20:20,320 Speaker 1: how we can incorporate community actualization in action, right, Because 1200 01:20:20,320 --> 01:20:22,400 Speaker 1: it's one thing to say it will be wonderful to 1201 01:20:22,520 --> 01:20:24,559 Speaker 1: have a community to support you in that kind of thing. 1202 01:20:24,680 --> 01:20:29,880 Speaker 1: But you know, um, how do people pretty isolated and stuff? 1203 01:20:29,960 --> 01:20:34,680 Speaker 1: Right now? Um? So I guess I actually put it 1204 01:20:34,760 --> 01:20:41,760 Speaker 1: into sort of five stage kind of approach, starting with 1205 01:20:42,080 --> 01:20:48,400 Speaker 1: firstly facilitating collective belonging among diverse groups. Right, So we 1206 01:20:48,479 --> 01:20:53,400 Speaker 1: want to look at bringing people together. Obviously they would 1207 01:20:53,400 --> 01:20:58,360 Speaker 1: have different backgrounds and different needs, different ones, different personalities, 1208 01:20:59,000 --> 01:21:04,160 Speaker 1: but bring people together, um, whether it be at work 1209 01:21:04,520 --> 01:21:09,960 Speaker 1: or on the block, or at school or whatever. The 1210 01:21:10,040 --> 01:21:13,519 Speaker 1: case we just for a cook cote or for align 1211 01:21:13,920 --> 01:21:18,519 Speaker 1: or any kind of party or interaction. Obviously, depending on 1212 01:21:18,600 --> 01:21:21,040 Speaker 1: where you are that that may not be the safest 1213 01:21:21,080 --> 01:21:27,479 Speaker 1: thing to do, um, considering COVID and everything. But just 1214 01:21:28,600 --> 01:21:31,720 Speaker 1: bring people together, not even necessary to proselytize to them 1215 01:21:31,920 --> 01:21:35,680 Speaker 1: about anarchism or socialism or whatever, but at the very 1216 01:21:35,800 --> 01:21:41,960 Speaker 1: least start connecting the nodes and start connecting the different 1217 01:21:42,040 --> 01:21:45,559 Speaker 1: parts that can eventually come together to become something greater, 1218 01:21:45,840 --> 01:21:47,320 Speaker 1: you know. I mean, you don't need to wait for 1219 01:21:48,040 --> 01:21:51,280 Speaker 1: a calamity. That's onything to happen. But of course we 1220 01:21:51,360 --> 01:21:55,080 Speaker 1: have seen as well where natural disasters have broad communities 1221 01:21:55,600 --> 01:22:00,240 Speaker 1: together that wouldn't together before. Um. I think, however, it 1222 01:22:00,240 --> 01:22:02,000 Speaker 1: would be better to like not wait for that kind 1223 01:22:02,000 --> 01:22:04,840 Speaker 1: of thing to happen and to just you know, bring 1224 01:22:04,880 --> 01:22:09,320 Speaker 1: people together from now, start some conversations, get things going right, 1225 01:22:09,439 --> 01:22:13,280 Speaker 1: and then from there you want to be facilitating solidarity 1226 01:22:13,680 --> 01:22:17,519 Speaker 1: in struggle. Right. So whether it be in the solidarity 1227 01:22:17,560 --> 01:22:19,760 Speaker 1: is a bit of a buzz would now or at 1228 01:22:19,840 --> 01:22:24,800 Speaker 1: least it become a buzz world. But I think whether 1229 01:22:24,840 --> 01:22:30,240 Speaker 1: it be with disasterly funds or solarity strikes and protests, 1230 01:22:30,600 --> 01:22:33,960 Speaker 1: or you know with basic mutually support you know, whether 1231 01:22:34,040 --> 01:22:40,040 Speaker 1: it's material or emotional solidarity in struggle. I think that 1232 01:22:40,200 --> 01:22:44,400 Speaker 1: is another crucial part in you know, building community and 1233 01:22:44,640 --> 01:22:49,360 Speaker 1: incorporating eventually community actualization, because what that does is it 1234 01:22:49,800 --> 01:22:53,280 Speaker 1: shows others that I have your back and you know, 1235 01:22:54,080 --> 01:22:56,479 Speaker 1: others able to see that, you know, they can have 1236 01:22:56,640 --> 01:23:00,639 Speaker 1: mine as well. UM. It have to build that sense 1237 01:23:00,680 --> 01:23:04,200 Speaker 1: of trust. You also want to sort of cultivated probably 1238 01:23:04,240 --> 01:23:06,439 Speaker 1: a sense of community pride and a sense of being 1239 01:23:06,439 --> 01:23:09,519 Speaker 1: able to rely on community networks. You know, we spoke 1240 01:23:09,520 --> 01:23:14,799 Speaker 1: about mutulate networks, but also things like UM skill shares 1241 01:23:15,040 --> 01:23:20,040 Speaker 1: or workshops, so UM material support. You know, if somebody 1242 01:23:20,320 --> 01:23:23,120 Speaker 1: needs food, being able to support for them to know 1243 01:23:23,720 --> 01:23:27,080 Speaker 1: that they have people they can go to to support 1244 01:23:27,080 --> 01:23:29,880 Speaker 1: them in their time of need, that is powerful. You know, 1245 01:23:30,000 --> 01:23:33,080 Speaker 1: not maing people forget that, Not maning people forget the 1246 01:23:33,240 --> 01:23:37,360 Speaker 1: time that they were at their most dire point and 1247 01:23:37,960 --> 01:23:41,160 Speaker 1: you know the community stepped up to support them. You know, 1248 01:23:41,720 --> 01:23:46,840 Speaker 1: if you want to see UH insurrection in our lifetimes, UM, 1249 01:23:47,479 --> 01:23:51,040 Speaker 1: you don't start guns blazing, you know, you start with 1250 01:23:52,439 --> 01:23:56,840 Speaker 1: a creative food, you start with a helping hand. You 1251 01:23:56,920 --> 01:24:02,120 Speaker 1: start with money if people need it, UM, and then 1252 01:24:02,200 --> 01:24:05,200 Speaker 1: from there, you know, you get into the realm of 1253 01:24:05,560 --> 01:24:11,040 Speaker 1: community achievements, where your community is collectively able to celebrate 1254 01:24:11,120 --> 01:24:14,639 Speaker 1: the things that we have accomplished together, you know, whether 1255 01:24:14,720 --> 01:24:20,679 Speaker 1: it be establishing community garden that is able to supplement 1256 01:24:20,960 --> 01:24:25,800 Speaker 1: people's um fresh produce supply, or whether it be that 1257 01:24:26,520 --> 01:24:31,400 Speaker 1: you know, community has come together and they've fixed something 1258 01:24:31,479 --> 01:24:34,760 Speaker 1: that was broken on the street, or even that they've 1259 01:24:34,800 --> 01:24:38,040 Speaker 1: come together and we're able to train people with like 1260 01:24:38,280 --> 01:24:42,639 Speaker 1: some really helpful skills where they're now able to support 1261 01:24:42,800 --> 01:24:46,160 Speaker 1: themselves and bring other things to the table as well. 1262 01:24:46,840 --> 01:24:51,160 Speaker 1: And then from there, I think that sort of approach 1263 01:24:51,439 --> 01:25:00,280 Speaker 1: would foster fulfillment in community and the figures community actualization. Yeah, 1264 01:25:00,320 --> 01:25:02,800 Speaker 1: I mean, and this is this is all. It's a 1265 01:25:02,840 --> 01:25:05,720 Speaker 1: big topic. Um. And it's a much bigger topic than 1266 01:25:05,840 --> 01:25:08,760 Speaker 1: just like what a what do you what changes do 1267 01:25:08,840 --> 01:25:10,760 Speaker 1: you want to make around the edges, like what things 1268 01:25:10,800 --> 01:25:13,600 Speaker 1: should people advocate for or even just like advocating that 1269 01:25:13,880 --> 01:25:17,120 Speaker 1: that the system be torn down, like as as was 1270 01:25:17,240 --> 01:25:19,679 Speaker 1: kind of evident when you asked, how could we build 1271 01:25:22,240 --> 01:25:27,680 Speaker 1: a community in which like kids feel more self actualization 1272 01:25:27,800 --> 01:25:30,920 Speaker 1: from engaging in the community. Um, And there was that 1273 01:25:31,040 --> 01:25:34,240 Speaker 1: kind of blank moment the when you actually talking talk 1274 01:25:34,320 --> 01:25:41,000 Speaker 1: about like reconfiguring society at such a fundamental level. Um. 1275 01:25:41,320 --> 01:25:45,200 Speaker 1: It's it's a big topic. UM. And it's it's one 1276 01:25:45,280 --> 01:25:48,560 Speaker 1: that I think it's important to introduce to people the 1277 01:25:48,680 --> 01:25:52,040 Speaker 1: idea like and we really have to be we really 1278 01:25:52,080 --> 01:25:54,200 Speaker 1: got to figure this this out. This is this is 1279 01:25:54,320 --> 01:25:58,160 Speaker 1: important to like everything we we say we believe. UM. 1280 01:25:58,680 --> 01:26:02,519 Speaker 1: Answering this question is going to be key. Uh and 1281 01:26:03,360 --> 01:26:06,560 Speaker 1: it's it's it's a tough one. UM. So I don't know. 1282 01:26:06,640 --> 01:26:11,120 Speaker 1: I think sometimes uh, people come into episodes we do 1283 01:26:11,240 --> 01:26:13,519 Speaker 1: on stuff like this like looking for Okay, well, how 1284 01:26:13,680 --> 01:26:16,120 Speaker 1: how are you what's your suggestion for how to do that? 1285 01:26:17,000 --> 01:26:21,160 Speaker 1: And at the moment, like I agree with the how 1286 01:26:21,240 --> 01:26:26,479 Speaker 1: imperative this is, um, But in terms of actionable stuff, it's, um, 1287 01:26:26,920 --> 01:26:30,400 Speaker 1: this is a big open ended question in my head. 1288 01:26:34,120 --> 01:26:35,920 Speaker 1: I mean, I think I think Andrew laid out a 1289 01:26:35,960 --> 01:26:38,439 Speaker 1: lot of the stuff that we've we've talked about both 1290 01:26:38,520 --> 01:26:41,719 Speaker 1: like you know, with within our kind of own community groups, 1291 01:26:42,240 --> 01:26:44,320 Speaker 1: in terms of the things in terms of like like 1292 01:26:44,400 --> 01:26:46,879 Speaker 1: you know, like connecting nodes and all like the steps 1293 01:26:46,960 --> 01:26:50,479 Speaker 1: that we can do to have there be like more 1294 01:26:51,080 --> 01:26:53,840 Speaker 1: like more connecting branches of the tree and how to 1295 01:26:54,120 --> 01:26:57,040 Speaker 1: strengthen those I think that it's it's a good Yeah, 1296 01:26:57,080 --> 01:26:59,240 Speaker 1: it's like we can't We don't know what your community 1297 01:26:59,320 --> 01:27:02,000 Speaker 1: is like, or what your what your situation is. All 1298 01:27:02,080 --> 01:27:04,560 Speaker 1: we can really say is here's the broad things that 1299 01:27:05,560 --> 01:27:08,080 Speaker 1: that you can try or have worked for other people 1300 01:27:08,160 --> 01:27:10,439 Speaker 1: in the past, and then based on what your situation is, 1301 01:27:10,520 --> 01:27:18,920 Speaker 1: you can apply those plugables. Yeah, pab St Andrew Yes, 1302 01:27:19,040 --> 01:27:21,439 Speaker 1: of course. Um, well, you can follow me on Twitter 1303 01:27:21,800 --> 01:27:26,360 Speaker 1: at underscore Scene true and of course on YouTube seeing andreids. 1304 01:27:26,439 --> 01:27:29,800 Speaker 1: Um check my stuff. You know, I have the video 1305 01:27:30,320 --> 01:27:34,760 Speaker 1: on rethinking masters, hierarchy of needs um and some other 1306 01:27:35,720 --> 01:27:40,439 Speaker 1: fun practice see things as well. Check it out. Check 1307 01:27:40,479 --> 01:27:45,839 Speaker 1: it out, um, and uh uh, stay thinking about stuff. 1308 01:27:47,320 --> 01:27:59,120 Speaker 1: Thinking is good. Thinking is good. The Gangster Chronicles podcast 1309 01:27:59,240 --> 01:28:01,960 Speaker 1: is a weekly conver station that revolves around the underworld 1310 01:28:02,400 --> 01:28:05,879 Speaker 1: and criminals and entertainers to victims, crime and law enforcement. 1311 01:28:05,960 --> 01:28:08,919 Speaker 1: We cover all facets of the game against. The Chronicles 1312 01:28:09,000 --> 01:28:12,799 Speaker 1: podcast doesn't glorify pro motilicit of activities. We just discussed 1313 01:28:12,840 --> 01:28:16,040 Speaker 1: the ramifications and repercussions of these activities, because, after all, 1314 01:28:16,400 --> 01:28:18,760 Speaker 1: she played gainst the games you are ultimately rewarded with 1315 01:28:18,840 --> 01:28:22,440 Speaker 1: Gainster Prizes. Our Heart Radio is number one for podcasts, 1316 01:28:22,640 --> 01:28:25,040 Speaker 1: but don't take our award for it. Find against the 1317 01:28:25,120 --> 01:28:27,800 Speaker 1: Chronicles podcast and I Heart Radio app or wherever you 1318 01:28:27,880 --> 01:28:34,000 Speaker 1: get your podcasts. I called the Union Hall. I said 1319 01:28:34,000 --> 01:28:36,360 Speaker 1: it's a matter of life and death. I think these 1320 01:28:36,400 --> 01:28:39,639 Speaker 1: people are planning to kill Dr King. On April four, 1321 01:28:41,120 --> 01:28:43,479 Speaker 1: Dr Martin Luther King was shot and killed in Memphis. 1322 01:28:43,880 --> 01:28:47,160 Speaker 1: A petty criminal named James Earl Ray was arrested. He 1323 01:28:47,320 --> 01:28:49,479 Speaker 1: played guilty to the crime and spent the rest of 1324 01:28:49,520 --> 01:28:54,439 Speaker 1: his life in prison. Case closed right, James L. Ray 1325 01:28:55,040 --> 01:28:59,759 Speaker 1: was upon for the official story. The authorities would parade 1326 01:29:00,160 --> 01:29:03,600 Speaker 1: we found a gun, the James old Raybard in Birmingham 1327 01:29:03,800 --> 01:29:07,120 Speaker 1: that killed Dr King. Except it wasn't the gun that 1328 01:29:07,200 --> 01:29:10,479 Speaker 1: killed Dr King. One of the problems that came out 1329 01:29:10,640 --> 01:29:14,040 Speaker 1: when I got the Ray case was that some of 1330 01:29:14,120 --> 01:29:17,160 Speaker 1: the evidence, as far as I was concerned, did not 1331 01:29:17,439 --> 01:29:21,719 Speaker 1: match the circumstances. This is the MLK tapes. The first 1332 01:29:21,800 --> 01:29:25,280 Speaker 1: episodes are available now. Listen on the I Heart Radio app, 1333 01:29:25,360 --> 01:29:31,200 Speaker 1: Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Make sure 1334 01:29:31,240 --> 01:29:33,879 Speaker 1: to check out Drink Champs, your number one music podcast 1335 01:29:33,960 --> 01:29:36,680 Speaker 1: on the Black Effect podcast Network. Hosts n O r 1336 01:29:36,720 --> 01:29:38,479 Speaker 1: E and d J E f N sat down with 1337 01:29:38,640 --> 01:29:42,479 Speaker 1: artists and icon Yea, which Vulture called one of most 1338 01:29:42,520 --> 01:29:46,479 Speaker 1: significant interviews. I literally had to go like Danos and 1339 01:29:46,520 --> 01:29:48,200 Speaker 1: I don't want to have to be the villain. But 1340 01:29:48,320 --> 01:29:51,719 Speaker 1: when I went and did the Donda thing, he returns 1341 01:29:52,280 --> 01:29:55,280 Speaker 1: and anybody had to sit back and watch the real leader. 1342 01:29:55,640 --> 01:29:58,280 Speaker 1: Check out Drink Champs conversation with Yea and many more 1343 01:29:58,439 --> 01:30:01,679 Speaker 1: legendary artists each and every on the I Heart Radio app, 1344 01:30:01,720 --> 01:30:04,639 Speaker 1: Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. 1345 01:30:13,400 --> 01:30:17,320 Speaker 1: Welcome that Could Happen Here a podcast about things falling 1346 01:30:17,360 --> 01:30:19,599 Speaker 1: apart and sort of how you can put them back together. 1347 01:30:19,720 --> 01:30:23,080 Speaker 1: This is again another mostly things fall Apart episode. UM 1348 01:30:23,160 --> 01:30:26,920 Speaker 1: Here with Me is Garrison. Hello, hello, and joining us 1349 01:30:26,960 --> 01:30:31,080 Speaker 1: today to talk about well a pretty wide range of things, 1350 01:30:31,240 --> 01:30:34,960 Speaker 1: but about the drug war in Mexico, about primorialitaries, and 1351 01:30:35,960 --> 01:30:37,840 Speaker 1: I guess also I guess about the Narco State. Is 1352 01:30:37,920 --> 01:30:40,400 Speaker 1: Alex Vinia, who is an a socially professor of history 1353 01:30:40,520 --> 01:30:43,720 Speaker 1: at Arizona stat University and has written several very very 1354 01:30:43,760 --> 01:30:46,360 Speaker 1: good articles that I've read recently. Um Alex, how are 1355 01:30:46,360 --> 01:30:49,439 Speaker 1: you doing doing great? Thank you so much for having 1356 01:30:49,520 --> 01:30:51,760 Speaker 1: me on. Yeah, thank you, thank you for joining us. 1357 01:30:52,680 --> 01:30:57,640 Speaker 1: Um So, I wanted to start by talking about an 1358 01:30:57,760 --> 01:31:02,519 Speaker 1: article that you has come fairly recently. Uh, that is 1359 01:31:02,640 --> 01:31:10,080 Speaker 1: about essentially the transition, particularly in Guerrero from I guess 1360 01:31:10,240 --> 01:31:15,320 Speaker 1: the sort of sixties seventies dirty war in Mexico two 1361 01:31:16,240 --> 01:31:18,839 Speaker 1: the drug war, and I guess I wanted to start 1362 01:31:19,080 --> 01:31:22,040 Speaker 1: from because I don't I don't think it's a issue 1363 01:31:22,040 --> 01:31:25,360 Speaker 1: that's particularly well known. Um. I want to, I guess, 1364 01:31:25,920 --> 01:31:29,679 Speaker 1: start with sort of an overview of how we got 1365 01:31:29,760 --> 01:31:32,040 Speaker 1: into the sort of dirty war in Mexico in the sixties, 1366 01:31:32,120 --> 01:31:34,360 Speaker 1: because I think I don't know, like I think if anyone, 1367 01:31:34,479 --> 01:31:36,840 Speaker 1: if people know stuff about this, it tends to be 1368 01:31:37,000 --> 01:31:41,120 Speaker 1: the very dramatic sort of like massacre in eight but 1369 01:31:41,479 --> 01:31:44,479 Speaker 1: it's been it went on for longer than that, and 1370 01:31:44,640 --> 01:31:46,479 Speaker 1: as a sort of deeper history. So can you bring 1371 01:31:46,600 --> 01:31:51,840 Speaker 1: us into that, Yeah, for sure. So I'll start off 1372 01:31:51,880 --> 01:31:54,599 Speaker 1: by saying that generally, if when most people think about 1373 01:31:54,720 --> 01:31:58,080 Speaker 1: dirty wars and and and Cold War Latin America, Mexico 1374 01:31:58,200 --> 01:32:00,760 Speaker 1: is probably the last country that they think be one, right, Like, 1375 01:32:00,880 --> 01:32:05,200 Speaker 1: there's a certain exceptionalism that Mexico has enjoyed until relatively 1376 01:32:05,280 --> 01:32:11,919 Speaker 1: recent and relatively recently UM amongst academics and especially historians 1377 01:32:12,000 --> 01:32:15,080 Speaker 1: right where we're in the last ten twenty years, we 1378 01:32:15,120 --> 01:32:18,320 Speaker 1: started to uncover Mexico's own version of a dirty war 1379 01:32:18,439 --> 01:32:23,960 Speaker 1: that we are more familiar with in other places like Chile, Argentina, Brazil, etcetera. 1380 01:32:24,560 --> 01:32:27,600 Speaker 1: UM Mexico's dirty war though, and if people know a 1381 01:32:27,680 --> 01:32:29,640 Speaker 1: little bit about this period, like as you mentioned right, 1382 01:32:29,680 --> 01:32:32,360 Speaker 1: they know about the infamous student massacre that the local 1383 01:32:32,400 --> 01:32:36,160 Speaker 1: in October two ninety eight. But you know, my my 1384 01:32:36,280 --> 01:32:39,160 Speaker 1: research focuses on on this the southern state of Guerrero. 1385 01:32:39,240 --> 01:32:41,720 Speaker 1: It's on the Pacific coast. It's made famous by the 1386 01:32:41,840 --> 01:32:45,519 Speaker 1: resort city of Akapunco. And I wrote a book in 1387 01:32:45,560 --> 01:32:47,840 Speaker 1: twenty four published a book in twenty fourteen that really 1388 01:32:47,880 --> 01:32:50,920 Speaker 1: traced the emergence of armed resistance in the state of 1389 01:32:50,960 --> 01:32:54,160 Speaker 1: Guerrero during the nineteen sixties and seventies. And that was 1390 01:32:54,280 --> 01:32:57,599 Speaker 1: my entrance into this idea of of a Mexican dirty war, 1391 01:32:57,800 --> 01:33:02,679 Speaker 1: of the Mexican state practice seeing systematic state terrorism against 1392 01:33:02,720 --> 01:33:07,680 Speaker 1: political dissidents and in my case, armed guerilla dissidents who 1393 01:33:07,840 --> 01:33:11,240 Speaker 1: enjoyed the backing of dozens of rural communities. UM and 1394 01:33:11,520 --> 01:33:15,280 Speaker 1: even urban poor working class neighborhoods in places that in 1395 01:33:15,360 --> 01:33:18,760 Speaker 1: the late sixties and in early nineteen seventies. That's a 1396 01:33:18,840 --> 01:33:21,240 Speaker 1: very regional story, right. That's another thing that kind of 1397 01:33:21,280 --> 01:33:24,160 Speaker 1: distinguishes the Mexican Dirty War from from other Latin American 1398 01:33:24,240 --> 01:33:29,000 Speaker 1: cases is that the Dirty War was localized to a 1399 01:33:29,120 --> 01:33:32,479 Speaker 1: few major cities and then to two very specific locales 1400 01:33:32,520 --> 01:33:36,880 Speaker 1: in the countryside, Garretro being the most bloody theater. Um. 1401 01:33:37,320 --> 01:33:40,519 Speaker 1: The way that these girla movements emerged, they really began 1402 01:33:40,640 --> 01:33:44,840 Speaker 1: as these popular, civic minded social movements in the late fifties, 1403 01:33:44,880 --> 01:33:48,879 Speaker 1: early nineteen sixties, and and they protested things like political 1404 01:33:48,920 --> 01:33:53,479 Speaker 1: authoritarianism and economic injustice. But they did so essentially within 1405 01:33:53,640 --> 01:33:57,200 Speaker 1: the confines of the Mexican constitution. They followed the law. Um, 1406 01:33:57,280 --> 01:34:00,720 Speaker 1: you know, Mexico has the the you know that that 1407 01:34:00,880 --> 01:34:03,080 Speaker 1: the characteristic in Latin America of having the first great 1408 01:34:03,160 --> 01:34:06,600 Speaker 1: social revolution of the twentieth century. Um, you do have 1409 01:34:06,720 --> 01:34:09,839 Speaker 1: a post revolutionary government that emerges from the nineteen nineteeent 1410 01:34:09,880 --> 01:34:13,439 Speaker 1: revolution that has to pay list service to the radical traditions, 1411 01:34:13,439 --> 01:34:15,720 Speaker 1: to the revolutionary traditions that came out of that that 1412 01:34:16,400 --> 01:34:19,439 Speaker 1: that movement, and for that reason the Mexican constitution that 1413 01:34:19,880 --> 01:34:22,439 Speaker 1: was passed in nineteen seventeen in its time was the 1414 01:34:22,520 --> 01:34:26,400 Speaker 1: most radical social democratic even constitution in the Western hemisphere. 1415 01:34:26,920 --> 01:34:30,519 Speaker 1: UM and you know, peasant communities compassing the communities in 1416 01:34:30,520 --> 01:34:33,200 Speaker 1: the state of believed the letter of the law. So 1417 01:34:33,280 --> 01:34:36,360 Speaker 1: when they started to protest, you know, an authoritarian state 1418 01:34:36,479 --> 01:34:40,640 Speaker 1: governors um a police violence, army violence, economic injustice. In 1419 01:34:40,680 --> 01:34:43,800 Speaker 1: the sixties, they followed the rules and they followed the laws, 1420 01:34:43,960 --> 01:34:46,639 Speaker 1: and each time that they did so, they experienced pretty 1421 01:34:46,680 --> 01:34:49,920 Speaker 1: horrific instances of both state violence exercised by the military 1422 01:34:49,960 --> 01:34:52,839 Speaker 1: and the police, but also everyday forms of violence practiced 1423 01:34:52,920 --> 01:34:55,360 Speaker 1: by you know, gun slingers who were working for landed elites. 1424 01:34:55,800 --> 01:34:59,040 Speaker 1: And that then radicalized some of these social movements into 1425 01:34:59,080 --> 01:35:01,839 Speaker 1: two separate guerrilla movements that were led by rural communist 1426 01:35:01,880 --> 01:35:07,760 Speaker 1: school teachers and not ask and movement in particular the 1427 01:35:07,840 --> 01:35:10,320 Speaker 1: Party of the Poor. They ended up creating a guerilla 1428 01:35:10,360 --> 01:35:13,280 Speaker 1: force of about the high estimates about three hundred fighters. 1429 01:35:13,640 --> 01:35:16,800 Speaker 1: A more realistic estimate is somewhere from one fifty to 1430 01:35:16,880 --> 01:35:20,200 Speaker 1: two hundred. But the key is that in coastal Guerrero 1431 01:35:20,320 --> 01:35:22,599 Speaker 1: and then some of the mountains mountain communities of the Garto. 1432 01:35:23,040 --> 01:35:26,400 Speaker 1: They obtain a lot, a pretty substantial amount of popular support, 1433 01:35:26,600 --> 01:35:28,720 Speaker 1: which then leads the Mexican government that had been you know, 1434 01:35:28,840 --> 01:35:31,000 Speaker 1: ruled by the p r I and it was ruled 1435 01:35:31,040 --> 01:35:32,680 Speaker 1: in Mexico, was ruled by the p r I for 1436 01:35:32,760 --> 01:35:35,439 Speaker 1: like eight years. Uh, they sent in the military and 1437 01:35:35,520 --> 01:35:38,960 Speaker 1: they waged this pretty horrific counter insurgency that that did 1438 01:35:39,040 --> 01:35:43,200 Speaker 1: things like disappear people, torture, rape, um. You know, they 1439 01:35:43,320 --> 01:35:47,000 Speaker 1: raised entire communities, um. And that's generally what's known as 1440 01:35:47,040 --> 01:35:49,760 Speaker 1: the Dirty War in Mexico. It's rural theater. Its main 1441 01:35:49,960 --> 01:35:51,920 Speaker 1: rural theater was in a place like Garrido where you 1442 01:35:52,040 --> 01:35:56,360 Speaker 1: we think there was almost a thousand disappearances from nineteen 1443 01:35:56,400 --> 01:35:59,640 Speaker 1: sixty nine up until the early nineteen eighties. Yeah, what 1444 01:35:59,880 --> 01:36:02,599 Speaker 1: are the things that they interested me a lot sort 1445 01:36:02,640 --> 01:36:05,479 Speaker 1: of reading through this was that it's sort of weird 1446 01:36:05,560 --> 01:36:07,840 Speaker 1: for an insurgency, and that you get aspects of both 1447 01:36:08,080 --> 01:36:11,599 Speaker 1: kind of the kind of like classical seventies urban Gurilla movement, 1448 01:36:11,640 --> 01:36:14,040 Speaker 1: but it's also it's very much a real movement you have, 1449 01:36:14,920 --> 01:36:15,800 Speaker 1: you know, I mean, like one of one of the 1450 01:36:15,840 --> 01:36:18,479 Speaker 1: stories you're telling this is about like a group of 1451 01:36:18,479 --> 01:36:20,200 Speaker 1: a group of people who did one of the you know, 1452 01:36:20,320 --> 01:36:23,160 Speaker 1: like the classic urban seventies thing, which is that you 1453 01:36:23,200 --> 01:36:25,880 Speaker 1: know they did they did a bank robbery, and then 1454 01:36:25,960 --> 01:36:28,160 Speaker 1: two the people get tortured and the rural guerrilla sort 1455 01:36:28,160 --> 01:36:29,519 Speaker 1: of get hunted down. And I was I was wondering 1456 01:36:30,400 --> 01:36:34,240 Speaker 1: about the dynamics of this because it seems like like 1457 01:36:34,360 --> 01:36:36,840 Speaker 1: there there's it seems like you have these groups that 1458 01:36:36,880 --> 01:36:41,280 Speaker 1: are kind of unusually moving back and forward between like 1459 01:36:41,439 --> 01:36:45,559 Speaker 1: having bases and cities and having bases in these rural areas. Yeah, 1460 01:36:45,640 --> 01:36:48,800 Speaker 1: that's one of the So usually when when when folks 1461 01:36:48,880 --> 01:36:51,559 Speaker 1: think about these these guerrilla movements, and in the sixies 1462 01:36:51,600 --> 01:36:53,519 Speaker 1: and seventies, they think of them primarily as as a 1463 01:36:53,560 --> 01:36:57,040 Speaker 1: as a you know, very fairly typical rural guerrilla movements 1464 01:36:57,120 --> 01:37:01,000 Speaker 1: as you just described. But these two movements, one led 1465 01:37:01,000 --> 01:37:03,120 Speaker 1: by as the Party of the Poor, the other one 1466 01:37:03,160 --> 01:37:09,439 Speaker 1: by Hanada Baska is the a CNRC. From the very onset, 1467 01:37:09,520 --> 01:37:12,920 Speaker 1: they tried to connect the rule to the city UM, 1468 01:37:13,000 --> 01:37:16,040 Speaker 1: whether it was cities in in Guerrero like UM the 1469 01:37:16,120 --> 01:37:19,040 Speaker 1: resort city of Acapulco, particularly working class neighborhoods on the 1470 01:37:19,080 --> 01:37:21,839 Speaker 1: outside of the city, or the state capital in Chilpan 1471 01:37:21,920 --> 01:37:25,080 Speaker 1: Single which housed the state university. Right, So both of 1472 01:37:25,120 --> 01:37:28,280 Speaker 1: these movements made pretty substantial inroads into that community and 1473 01:37:28,360 --> 01:37:31,880 Speaker 1: then also into Mexico City. So they tried. Their idea 1474 01:37:32,040 --> 01:37:35,560 Speaker 1: was not necessarily to start as a strictly as a 1475 01:37:35,640 --> 01:37:38,640 Speaker 1: strictly rural movement, but their idea was always to expand 1476 01:37:39,160 --> 01:37:41,880 Speaker 1: because I think to the cities, and I think quite 1477 01:37:42,280 --> 01:37:45,720 Speaker 1: rightly they they perceived that what the Mexican state was 1478 01:37:45,760 --> 01:37:47,599 Speaker 1: going to do to them was trying to corral them 1479 01:37:47,680 --> 01:37:50,720 Speaker 1: in the state of Guerrero and prevent them from logistically 1480 01:37:50,760 --> 01:37:54,040 Speaker 1: and politically expanding beyond that. And in the end they 1481 01:37:54,080 --> 01:37:56,360 Speaker 1: were That's exactly what happened, um. And that's how these 1482 01:37:56,400 --> 01:37:59,080 Speaker 1: movements were ruthlessly crushed. That and it took a lot 1483 01:37:59,120 --> 01:38:02,559 Speaker 1: of terror to to separate these armed movements from their 1484 01:38:02,600 --> 01:38:05,080 Speaker 1: popular base of support. But a lot of this has 1485 01:38:05,080 --> 01:38:07,000 Speaker 1: to do with the fact that both Vaskis and Colonias 1486 01:38:07,000 --> 01:38:10,160 Speaker 1: were school teachers and they were involved in union movements 1487 01:38:10,240 --> 01:38:12,840 Speaker 1: that were national in scope. Um, they were in moved, 1488 01:38:12,920 --> 01:38:14,880 Speaker 1: they were in you know, Luss was in the next 1489 01:38:15,040 --> 01:38:18,400 Speaker 1: Communist Party, right, so he had extensive urban experiences and 1490 01:38:18,720 --> 01:38:22,120 Speaker 1: networks throughout the country. So their perspective was always to 1491 01:38:22,200 --> 01:38:25,200 Speaker 1: connect the rule to the urban particularly because Mexico by 1492 01:38:25,240 --> 01:38:28,000 Speaker 1: the seventies was a rapidly urbanizing country, right it was 1493 01:38:28,040 --> 01:38:30,840 Speaker 1: going it becomes for the first time and assist well 1494 01:38:31,320 --> 01:38:33,799 Speaker 1: first time as his post colonial history, it becomes primarily 1495 01:38:33,920 --> 01:38:38,400 Speaker 1: an urban country. So um, So they tried these really 1496 01:38:38,439 --> 01:38:42,560 Speaker 1: interesting experiments to try to connect the two theaters. But 1497 01:38:42,720 --> 01:38:44,439 Speaker 1: as you as you mentioned, right, they did that typical 1498 01:38:44,520 --> 01:38:49,960 Speaker 1: nineteen seventies thing of robbing banks, and their terminology was expropriation, right, um. 1499 01:38:50,200 --> 01:38:53,160 Speaker 1: But that that then exposed them to police actions and 1500 01:38:53,360 --> 01:38:55,840 Speaker 1: and any time any of their militants were captured, they 1501 01:38:55,880 --> 01:38:59,760 Speaker 1: were immediately tortured information you know, that they were interrogated horrifically, 1502 01:39:00,320 --> 01:39:02,400 Speaker 1: and that and from intel was used to to hunt 1503 01:39:02,439 --> 01:39:04,960 Speaker 1: down their their their their comrades up in the mountains. 1504 01:39:04,960 --> 01:39:07,880 Speaker 1: And I think that that's a good place to move 1505 01:39:08,040 --> 01:39:10,800 Speaker 1: towards sort of the other side of this, which is 1506 01:39:11,240 --> 01:39:14,680 Speaker 1: partially the Mexican state response. But the part, the part 1507 01:39:14,720 --> 01:39:16,719 Speaker 1: of it that was really interesting to me was about 1508 01:39:16,880 --> 01:39:20,000 Speaker 1: how you know, so so part part part part of 1509 01:39:20,040 --> 01:39:22,040 Speaker 1: what these groups are fighting are these sort of very 1510 01:39:22,160 --> 01:39:27,920 Speaker 1: very local like to landed elites, and I wonder if 1511 01:39:27,960 --> 01:39:30,920 Speaker 1: you could talk a little bit about how these sort 1512 01:39:30,960 --> 01:39:33,560 Speaker 1: of local elites merger, are able to merge with and 1513 01:39:33,640 --> 01:39:35,719 Speaker 1: sort of like co opt in a lot of ways 1514 01:39:35,840 --> 01:39:40,600 Speaker 1: that the military units that are deployed. Yeah, that's one 1515 01:39:40,640 --> 01:39:43,800 Speaker 1: of the biggest So let me see how I can 1516 01:39:43,800 --> 01:39:47,000 Speaker 1: answer this question, because there's there's so what I what 1517 01:39:47,080 --> 01:39:48,559 Speaker 1: I tried to do in this article, and it's part 1518 01:39:48,600 --> 01:39:51,559 Speaker 1: of my broader ongoing research, is to kind of connect 1519 01:39:52,439 --> 01:39:54,680 Speaker 1: the violence, the state violence of the Mexican Dirty War 1520 01:39:54,760 --> 01:39:56,920 Speaker 1: as it as as it happens and get around the 1521 01:39:56,960 --> 01:40:00,400 Speaker 1: seventies with with with something else that's happening simuel taneously, 1522 01:40:00,479 --> 01:40:03,240 Speaker 1: which is like the so called drug war and the 1523 01:40:03,400 --> 01:40:06,920 Speaker 1: exponentially increasing cultivation of drugs in a place like Gereto, 1524 01:40:06,960 --> 01:40:10,000 Speaker 1: particularly marijuana and then opium poppies that are used to 1525 01:40:10,160 --> 01:40:13,320 Speaker 1: produce heroin. UM. So what I try to do in 1526 01:40:13,360 --> 01:40:15,639 Speaker 1: the article that that you're referencing is kind of the show. 1527 01:40:16,040 --> 01:40:19,920 Speaker 1: There's a longer history and Guerrero of of how power 1528 01:40:20,400 --> 01:40:23,040 Speaker 1: is exercise at the local level and how some of 1529 01:40:23,120 --> 01:40:25,719 Speaker 1: these local landed elites are able to weather the nineteen 1530 01:40:25,720 --> 01:40:29,200 Speaker 1: ten Mexican Revolution. They're able to weather, the agrarian reform 1531 01:40:29,280 --> 01:40:33,559 Speaker 1: efforts that that occurred in the nineteen thirties and forties UM. 1532 01:40:33,800 --> 01:40:36,680 Speaker 1: And and really these these families. One of the things 1533 01:40:36,760 --> 01:40:39,920 Speaker 1: that that captures my attention of of Guerrero is that, uh, 1534 01:40:40,240 --> 01:40:42,320 Speaker 1: how you can tell who's in power by just by 1535 01:40:42,360 --> 01:40:44,720 Speaker 1: almost by looking at their last name. Because there's this 1536 01:40:44,840 --> 01:40:48,600 Speaker 1: remarkable continuity in the state of who has managed to 1537 01:40:48,720 --> 01:40:51,880 Speaker 1: exercise power at the local level political, social, economic power 1538 01:40:52,439 --> 01:40:55,880 Speaker 1: um for decades now for generations UM. And you can 1539 01:40:56,000 --> 01:40:59,280 Speaker 1: track how power works by looking at families. And in 1540 01:40:59,680 --> 01:41:01,120 Speaker 1: what I do in this article is to look at 1541 01:41:01,120 --> 01:41:03,360 Speaker 1: a couple of landed elite families that had managed to 1542 01:41:03,360 --> 01:41:07,000 Speaker 1: stay in power for decades UM. So there's certain at Landed. 1543 01:41:07,400 --> 01:41:11,200 Speaker 1: In this article, I focus on one municipality called which 1544 01:41:11,280 --> 01:41:14,080 Speaker 1: is in the hot Lands region of Guerrero. UM. During 1545 01:41:14,600 --> 01:41:16,160 Speaker 1: you know, probably from about two thousand and eight to 1546 01:41:16,240 --> 01:41:19,920 Speaker 1: two thou fifteen, it was in the top three in 1547 01:41:20,040 --> 01:41:22,920 Speaker 1: Mexico for opium and heroin production. So it becomes this 1548 01:41:23,120 --> 01:41:26,840 Speaker 1: massive drug producing region. So I go back in time 1549 01:41:27,200 --> 01:41:29,479 Speaker 1: and I kind of trace like who was in power 1550 01:41:29,600 --> 01:41:32,360 Speaker 1: in this region, who owned land, who owned the resources. 1551 01:41:32,400 --> 01:41:35,800 Speaker 1: Throughout the twentieth century and how they were responsible for 1552 01:41:35,920 --> 01:41:39,599 Speaker 1: essentially creating this little narco fiefdom as it currently exists, 1553 01:41:40,040 --> 01:41:42,640 Speaker 1: and trying to figure out which families were involved. So 1554 01:41:42,720 --> 01:41:44,120 Speaker 1: on the one hand, you have these families that have 1555 01:41:44,200 --> 01:41:46,439 Speaker 1: been in power from like the nineteen twenties and thirties 1556 01:41:46,479 --> 01:41:48,960 Speaker 1: and are still exercising power. And then when we get 1557 01:41:49,000 --> 01:41:51,559 Speaker 1: to the nineteen seventies and you have this this horrific 1558 01:41:51,640 --> 01:41:54,280 Speaker 1: dirty war, this counterinsurgency that the state in the military 1559 01:41:54,400 --> 01:41:58,480 Speaker 1: waging against communities and guerrero that opens up new possibilities 1560 01:41:58,520 --> 01:42:01,240 Speaker 1: for new families to come in and to ally themselves 1561 01:42:01,280 --> 01:42:05,160 Speaker 1: with locally stationed UH military units, and they work together 1562 01:42:05,320 --> 01:42:08,439 Speaker 1: to wipe out guerillas and guerilla supporters at the and 1563 01:42:08,640 --> 01:42:10,439 Speaker 1: at the same time they start to you know, kind 1564 01:42:10,439 --> 01:42:13,639 Speaker 1: of dip their toe into this this world of narcotics production. 1565 01:42:13,880 --> 01:42:16,479 Speaker 1: Because really in Mexico in the nineteen seven especially by 1566 01:42:16,479 --> 01:42:19,120 Speaker 1: the night mid nineteen seventies, it becomes a number one 1567 01:42:19,280 --> 01:42:23,000 Speaker 1: prior of of marijuana and heroin to the United States um. 1568 01:42:23,040 --> 01:42:25,160 Speaker 1: And this is part of just a broader global history 1569 01:42:25,200 --> 01:42:29,040 Speaker 1: of narcotics. Right there's US lad drug interdiction efforts in 1570 01:42:29,080 --> 01:42:33,799 Speaker 1: places like Turkey, Afghanistan and in the in Southeast Asia, 1571 01:42:34,200 --> 01:42:37,639 Speaker 1: and efforts to suppress the drug drug production there creates 1572 01:42:37,720 --> 01:42:39,519 Speaker 1: this you know what what what people usually refer to 1573 01:42:39,560 --> 01:42:42,320 Speaker 1: as a balloon effect. Uh, it just displaces the drug 1574 01:42:42,400 --> 01:42:44,680 Speaker 1: production somewhere else because the demand in the US is 1575 01:42:44,720 --> 01:42:47,879 Speaker 1: still there. And that because in that creates in Mexico 1576 01:42:48,320 --> 01:42:51,080 Speaker 1: the number one provider of narcotics by the mid nineteen seventies, 1577 01:42:51,120 --> 01:42:52,840 Speaker 1: and that then has an impact locally in the place 1578 01:42:52,880 --> 01:42:56,760 Speaker 1: of Guerrero, which is again simultaneously experiencing a grill insurgency, 1579 01:42:56,840 --> 01:42:59,400 Speaker 1: a dirty war, and then also the ramping up of 1580 01:42:59,439 --> 01:43:02,720 Speaker 1: drug product shoot. One of the most interesting parts of 1581 01:43:02,800 --> 01:43:06,000 Speaker 1: this that I didn't know about was about how, I 1582 01:43:06,040 --> 01:43:10,080 Speaker 1: mean they're like how how explicitly because I've read a 1583 01:43:10,160 --> 01:43:11,880 Speaker 1: lot of while not a lot, but I've read about 1584 01:43:12,680 --> 01:43:17,080 Speaker 1: a lot of how, particularly like after like when when 1585 01:43:17,200 --> 01:43:20,479 Speaker 1: the sort of after sort of the various up people 1586 01:43:20,520 --> 01:43:23,559 Speaker 1: in two thousands six in Mexico with the Wahaka uprising 1587 01:43:23,680 --> 01:43:25,400 Speaker 1: with the Zapatuita is making a bunch of moves and 1588 01:43:25,840 --> 01:43:29,040 Speaker 1: the CPO presidential election, about how you get the drug 1589 01:43:29,120 --> 01:43:31,840 Speaker 1: war is this sort of like military solution to these 1590 01:43:31,840 --> 01:43:34,720 Speaker 1: electist movements, But I was interested in how I mean, 1591 01:43:34,800 --> 01:43:39,080 Speaker 1: incredibly explicit they are about this, Like the anti guerrilla 1592 01:43:39,120 --> 01:43:41,719 Speaker 1: operations are, like they don't call them mentic thriller operations. 1593 01:43:41,760 --> 01:43:45,439 Speaker 1: They talk about like bandits and like they they they're 1594 01:43:45,479 --> 01:43:47,080 Speaker 1: they're explicitly like no, no, no, this is an anti 1595 01:43:47,120 --> 01:43:50,480 Speaker 1: narco operation, even though you know they're going and massacurring 1596 01:43:50,760 --> 01:43:55,160 Speaker 1: like essentially peasants and occasionally guerillas, but just a bunch 1597 01:43:55,200 --> 01:44:01,000 Speaker 1: of just random like campusinos. Yeah. Yeah, there's a there's 1598 01:44:01,600 --> 01:44:05,240 Speaker 1: a great quote that I got from for in this article. Um, 1599 01:44:06,040 --> 01:44:08,760 Speaker 1: you know, this is wonderful researcher in Mexico, Carlos Flordesho, 1600 01:44:08,800 --> 01:44:10,920 Speaker 1: was a really good book on kind of like the 1601 01:44:11,520 --> 01:44:14,240 Speaker 1: failed state in Mexico and drugs and military and in 1602 01:44:14,320 --> 01:44:18,920 Speaker 1: that steady he managed to interview a military participant in 1603 01:44:19,000 --> 01:44:21,599 Speaker 1: the Dirty War in the nineteen seventies and he has 1604 01:44:21,640 --> 01:44:23,679 Speaker 1: this great quote that I included in this essay which 1605 01:44:23,680 --> 01:44:26,920 Speaker 1: he says, this military guy says basically, look, with the 1606 01:44:27,000 --> 01:44:30,040 Speaker 1: marijuana growers, we had no problem, we had no beef. 1607 01:44:31,000 --> 01:44:32,559 Speaker 1: But with the guerrillas, we had to fuck them up. 1608 01:44:33,400 --> 01:44:35,920 Speaker 1: And for me, like that, that direct quote kind of 1609 01:44:36,040 --> 01:44:39,479 Speaker 1: encapsulates like what the drug war in Mexico has been 1610 01:44:39,600 --> 01:44:42,519 Speaker 1: historically and in this current form. Like and this is 1611 01:44:42,560 --> 01:44:45,240 Speaker 1: something that I learned from people like sociologists and journalists 1612 01:44:45,240 --> 01:44:47,080 Speaker 1: Don Paley, right, like the war on drugs, the war 1613 01:44:47,120 --> 01:44:50,960 Speaker 1: on poor people, um. And and it it becomes in 1614 01:44:50,960 --> 01:44:53,800 Speaker 1: the nineteen seventies, it becomes a really useful cover for 1615 01:44:53,960 --> 01:44:56,280 Speaker 1: the type of horrific violence that the state is practicing 1616 01:44:56,360 --> 01:45:01,360 Speaker 1: in a place like against these popularly supported insurgencies so 1617 01:45:01,560 --> 01:45:04,400 Speaker 1: publicly and to the international audience and to its own 1618 01:45:04,439 --> 01:45:07,080 Speaker 1: domestic national audience. And the Mexican state is saying, look, 1619 01:45:07,120 --> 01:45:09,439 Speaker 1: we're not waging a dirty war, We're not waging a 1620 01:45:09,520 --> 01:45:12,599 Speaker 1: counter insurgency. We're fighting a war against cattle wrestlers, against 1621 01:45:12,600 --> 01:45:16,720 Speaker 1: cattle thieves, and against criminals, against drug dealers, um. When 1622 01:45:16,760 --> 01:45:19,000 Speaker 1: in reality they're waging a war against poor people who 1623 01:45:19,040 --> 01:45:21,800 Speaker 1: are supporting these different guerrilla insurgencies led by these rural 1624 01:45:21,840 --> 01:45:25,360 Speaker 1: communist school teachers. Um. So that's and that's in the 1625 01:45:25,439 --> 01:45:27,680 Speaker 1: rural theater, right. It's it's really interesting when you think 1626 01:45:27,720 --> 01:45:30,920 Speaker 1: about how the Mexican state in the seventies will criminalize 1627 01:45:31,439 --> 01:45:34,000 Speaker 1: urban guerrilla movements. You know, Mexico had like thirty eight 1628 01:45:34,040 --> 01:45:36,120 Speaker 1: guerilla movements in the nineties, sixies and seventies. That's just 1629 01:45:36,240 --> 01:45:39,080 Speaker 1: like people don't really recognize that, right, like thirty eight 1630 01:45:39,160 --> 01:45:42,360 Speaker 1: to forty different rural and urban guerilla organizations. The big 1631 01:45:42,520 --> 01:45:45,439 Speaker 1: urban one that managed to create i don't know, ten 1632 01:45:45,520 --> 01:45:49,400 Speaker 1: to twelve different uh focals or folks uh pols i 1633 01:45:49,960 --> 01:45:55,639 Speaker 1: Um was the LEA, the Communist League of the September Um. 1634 01:45:55,800 --> 01:45:58,400 Speaker 1: They became such a big threat in the urban theater 1635 01:45:58,640 --> 01:46:01,040 Speaker 1: that the Mexican president, and we said Cheveria devoted his 1636 01:46:01,120 --> 01:46:03,960 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy four State of the Union, basically the Mexican 1637 01:46:04,280 --> 01:46:06,400 Speaker 1: version of the State of Union, he devoted a pretty 1638 01:46:06,400 --> 01:46:08,920 Speaker 1: good chunk of it to these quote unquote terrorists, right, 1639 01:46:08,960 --> 01:46:11,320 Speaker 1: So for the urban guerrillas, he referred to them as terrorists, 1640 01:46:11,800 --> 01:46:13,800 Speaker 1: and then he does this thing where he says, you know, 1641 01:46:13,920 --> 01:46:17,920 Speaker 1: most of these terrorists are unpatriotic. They and I'm gonna 1642 01:46:17,920 --> 01:46:23,280 Speaker 1: paraphrase some of his language, they reveal high indices of homosexuality, 1643 01:46:24,000 --> 01:46:26,920 Speaker 1: of like just basically mothering them to the point that 1644 01:46:26,960 --> 01:46:29,559 Speaker 1: they're seen as like the most despicable other in Mexico, 1645 01:46:29,680 --> 01:46:32,360 Speaker 1: in Mexican society. And that then opens them up to 1646 01:46:32,400 --> 01:46:36,320 Speaker 1: getting wiped out, um, which is fulfills a similar function 1647 01:46:36,360 --> 01:46:39,879 Speaker 1: as calling the rural guerillas nothing more than cattle wrestlers, 1648 01:46:39,920 --> 01:46:43,080 Speaker 1: cattle thieves, and narcos. Right, So it's all this counterinsurgency 1649 01:46:43,160 --> 01:46:47,240 Speaker 1: like discursive strategy that that justifies the elimination of these people. 1650 01:46:48,160 --> 01:46:50,200 Speaker 1: But at bottom, these are just wars against the drug 1651 01:46:50,240 --> 01:46:52,960 Speaker 1: wars a war against poor people. And and you see 1652 01:46:53,040 --> 01:46:54,719 Speaker 1: that to this day, you see that, you know most 1653 01:46:54,800 --> 01:46:56,960 Speaker 1: one of the things that really animates my research about 1654 01:46:57,280 --> 01:47:00,200 Speaker 1: the history of drug wars in Mexico is that I 1655 01:47:00,280 --> 01:47:04,080 Speaker 1: really want to push back against you know, journalistic treatments 1656 01:47:04,120 --> 01:47:06,320 Speaker 1: that that will say, look, Mexico's war on drugs began 1657 01:47:06,400 --> 01:47:09,960 Speaker 1: in two thousand and six when President Felipe Leon wait, 1658 01:47:10,080 --> 01:47:13,120 Speaker 1: you know, launched the military against the different drug trafficking organizations. 1659 01:47:13,160 --> 01:47:16,080 Speaker 1: And you know, historians, um, like like myself will work 1660 01:47:16,120 --> 01:47:17,640 Speaker 1: on this. We're like, wait, no, Mexico has had a 1661 01:47:17,800 --> 01:47:21,439 Speaker 1: series of drug wars right that. There's a historian Alec 1662 01:47:21,479 --> 01:47:24,599 Speaker 1: Dawson who talks about has a really excellent book on Payote, 1663 01:47:25,160 --> 01:47:27,000 Speaker 1: and he talks about how the war on drugs begins 1664 01:47:27,040 --> 01:47:28,720 Speaker 1: in like the colonial era, right in terms of how 1665 01:47:28,760 --> 01:47:33,840 Speaker 1: the Spanish colonial state criminalized uh indigenous consumption of drugs 1666 01:47:33,920 --> 01:47:38,080 Speaker 1: like payote for for their own ritualistic cultural practices. Um. 1667 01:47:38,160 --> 01:47:40,880 Speaker 1: The nineteen seventies is another moment where you have a 1668 01:47:41,040 --> 01:47:44,680 Speaker 1: form of drug war that the Mexican state exercises. But 1669 01:47:44,880 --> 01:47:47,360 Speaker 1: from my perspective, it's just it's almost like a cover 1670 01:47:47,800 --> 01:47:50,439 Speaker 1: as a way to wage war against political dissidents and 1671 01:47:50,600 --> 01:47:54,040 Speaker 1: an armed guerrilla challenges to its rule in Mexico. Yeah, 1672 01:47:54,040 --> 01:47:56,639 Speaker 1: and I think that's a that's a iportant of looking 1673 01:47:56,680 --> 01:48:01,519 Speaker 1: at it also as just a way to understand stand why, 1674 01:48:03,120 --> 01:48:04,519 Speaker 1: you know, like if if you're looking at it from 1675 01:48:04,520 --> 01:48:06,360 Speaker 1: the inspective of like a policy makers like oh, well, 1676 01:48:06,360 --> 01:48:07,840 Speaker 1: we spent all the time during the War on drugs, 1677 01:48:07,880 --> 01:48:10,519 Speaker 1: like why are there more drugs? And it's like, well yeah, 1678 01:48:10,520 --> 01:48:15,640 Speaker 1: because I mean, the point isn't really about like I mean, 1679 01:48:16,439 --> 01:48:18,400 Speaker 1: I think, okay, I want to make a caveat here, 1680 01:48:18,439 --> 01:48:20,760 Speaker 1: which is like it's not like there's such a thing 1681 01:48:20,800 --> 01:48:22,920 Speaker 1: as like a quote unquote good war on drugs that 1682 01:48:22,960 --> 01:48:24,960 Speaker 1: you could wage like there there's no there isn't a 1683 01:48:25,040 --> 01:48:27,120 Speaker 1: version of this that's like oh no, if if if 1684 01:48:27,160 --> 01:48:29,599 Speaker 1: we actually just try to like focusing on stopping these people, 1685 01:48:29,640 --> 01:48:32,360 Speaker 1: it would work, but it's like no, But simultaneously, yeah, 1686 01:48:32,400 --> 01:48:38,840 Speaker 1: it's that the goal isn't really about like it's not 1687 01:48:38,880 --> 01:48:41,240 Speaker 1: about drugs, it's just about killing poor people. And I said, yeah, 1688 01:48:41,240 --> 01:48:42,880 Speaker 1: I think that that's that's a good way of framing it. 1689 01:48:42,920 --> 01:48:48,160 Speaker 1: And I think also it's an interesting way of looking 1690 01:48:49,320 --> 01:48:55,200 Speaker 1: at why you start to see these sort of supposedly 1691 01:48:55,240 --> 01:48:59,840 Speaker 1: like anti narco units just immediately start doing like getting 1692 01:48:59,880 --> 01:49:04,680 Speaker 1: to the trade. Yeah. Well, I mean because they're like 1693 01:49:05,080 --> 01:49:07,599 Speaker 1: their position to make a ton of money off of it. Yeah, 1694 01:49:07,760 --> 01:49:10,080 Speaker 1: like it's yeah, they're not dumb. Yeah, yeah, And I 1695 01:49:10,160 --> 01:49:12,000 Speaker 1: think I don't know, this is an interesting question about 1696 01:49:12,000 --> 01:49:13,920 Speaker 1: like the structure of the state here too, because you know, 1697 01:49:14,000 --> 01:49:15,720 Speaker 1: look like in Chicago, this is another like this is 1698 01:49:15,760 --> 01:49:17,200 Speaker 1: the thing that happens all the time, is yeah, you 1699 01:49:17,240 --> 01:49:19,320 Speaker 1: get these you get these antidrug units that are you know, 1700 01:49:19,320 --> 01:49:21,080 Speaker 1: incredibly specialized, They get a bunch of money, and then 1701 01:49:21,160 --> 01:49:23,479 Speaker 1: they immediately trying to round start and start like just 1702 01:49:23,720 --> 01:49:26,320 Speaker 1: do like just enter into the drug trade. And so 1703 01:49:27,240 --> 01:49:28,519 Speaker 1: I was one of the other things, Yeah, I was 1704 01:49:28,680 --> 01:49:34,719 Speaker 1: just been interested in this just about there's there's seems 1705 01:49:34,760 --> 01:49:40,240 Speaker 1: to be these these very these these very interesting sort 1706 01:49:40,280 --> 01:49:46,960 Speaker 1: of alliances between paramilitaries, cartels, the police in the military 1707 01:49:47,320 --> 01:49:49,920 Speaker 1: that open up and this is this I know this 1708 01:49:50,040 --> 01:49:53,720 Speaker 1: is an incredibly broad like it's a question you can like, 1709 01:49:54,320 --> 01:49:56,479 Speaker 1: you know, devote academic disciplines too, But I was wondering 1710 01:49:57,160 --> 01:50:00,120 Speaker 1: how you look at the states in the context in 1711 01:50:00,200 --> 01:50:03,120 Speaker 1: a context like this, because yeah, I mean in a 1712 01:50:03,160 --> 01:50:06,639 Speaker 1: context where you know, it's not the state doesn't really 1713 01:50:06,720 --> 01:50:10,840 Speaker 1: have monopoly on violence, right, Yeah, No, that's a that's 1714 01:50:10,880 --> 01:50:13,840 Speaker 1: a huge question. And there's how you I mean, essentially, 1715 01:50:13,880 --> 01:50:16,000 Speaker 1: the question is like what is the state? Which is yeah, 1716 01:50:16,040 --> 01:50:20,360 Speaker 1: that question always terrorizes me. And how you answer that 1717 01:50:20,560 --> 01:50:24,479 Speaker 1: question then leads has consequences to how we think about 1718 01:50:24,720 --> 01:50:27,800 Speaker 1: things like the drug war or you know, violence in 1719 01:50:27,920 --> 01:50:30,960 Speaker 1: Mexico or a variety of different things. Right. But so 1720 01:50:31,280 --> 01:50:33,920 Speaker 1: what I what I do in this article is uncle 1721 01:50:35,240 --> 01:50:37,360 Speaker 1: is to just simply look at what the state looks 1722 01:50:37,400 --> 01:50:40,360 Speaker 1: like at the local level, right, um, particularly like it's 1723 01:50:40,400 --> 01:50:43,240 Speaker 1: repressive apparatus is and what you see in a place 1724 01:50:43,360 --> 01:50:49,040 Speaker 1: like because yeah, you see kind of like it's a 1725 01:50:49,160 --> 01:50:53,840 Speaker 1: multi scale er issue, right where you have generations of 1726 01:50:54,240 --> 01:50:57,400 Speaker 1: conflicts over land and land tenure and who gets to 1727 01:50:57,439 --> 01:51:00,920 Speaker 1: control rural markets. Who gets to control access to rural 1728 01:51:01,000 --> 01:51:03,280 Speaker 1: markets and rural production. Right, So there's already like a 1729 01:51:03,360 --> 01:51:07,000 Speaker 1: built in structure that's exploitative, that has somehow managed to 1730 01:51:07,040 --> 01:51:10,920 Speaker 1: weather a big social revolution and a grand reform effort. 1731 01:51:11,439 --> 01:51:13,679 Speaker 1: And on top of that, then in the sixties and seventies, 1732 01:51:13,720 --> 01:51:18,280 Speaker 1: you get uh, you know, industrialized narcotics production placed on 1733 01:51:18,400 --> 01:51:21,080 Speaker 1: top of this pre existing structure. Right, so it's should 1734 01:51:21,120 --> 01:51:24,360 Speaker 1: be no, it's almost like no surprise then that you know, 1735 01:51:24,439 --> 01:51:26,639 Speaker 1: the gun slingers that used to work for landed elagues 1736 01:51:27,040 --> 01:51:29,640 Speaker 1: will now serves not just gun slingers for land of 1737 01:51:29,680 --> 01:51:32,840 Speaker 1: elages who are terrorizing campesinos, but now they're also gonna 1738 01:51:32,840 --> 01:51:35,960 Speaker 1: work with like local narcotic uh, you know, narco farmers, 1739 01:51:36,080 --> 01:51:40,240 Speaker 1: drug farmers and and traffickers. And then at the same 1740 01:51:40,280 --> 01:51:43,080 Speaker 1: time they're going to do their best to co opt 1741 01:51:43,200 --> 01:51:46,280 Speaker 1: to buy off you know, military units that are stationed 1742 01:51:46,320 --> 01:51:48,320 Speaker 1: at the local level, police units that are stationed at 1743 01:51:48,360 --> 01:51:51,719 Speaker 1: the local level, local judges, local magistrates, local political officials, 1744 01:51:52,280 --> 01:51:56,280 Speaker 1: and and it it creates a very um dense network 1745 01:51:56,479 --> 01:51:59,439 Speaker 1: at the local level of people who are working together, 1746 01:52:00,200 --> 01:52:04,439 Speaker 1: uh to maintain power, but at the same time make 1747 01:52:04,479 --> 01:52:08,040 Speaker 1: sure that this really profitable political economy of narcotics is 1748 01:52:08,080 --> 01:52:11,160 Speaker 1: going to thrive. And this is at the very local level, right, 1749 01:52:11,200 --> 01:52:14,960 Speaker 1: So in some in some ways those local interests of 1750 01:52:15,000 --> 01:52:17,680 Speaker 1: the quote unquote the state are will conflict with the 1751 01:52:17,760 --> 01:52:21,160 Speaker 1: state in Mexico City and how to resolve those tensions 1752 01:52:21,200 --> 01:52:23,519 Speaker 1: and becomes a big deal. So the the guy that 1753 01:52:23,600 --> 01:52:26,720 Speaker 1: the military participant that I referenced earlier, he was he 1754 01:52:26,920 --> 01:52:30,200 Speaker 1: was actually sent in from outside of Garredo into Geo 1755 01:52:30,280 --> 01:52:34,120 Speaker 1: to wage counterinsurgency. And you know, he talks in this 1756 01:52:34,280 --> 01:52:36,599 Speaker 1: book about how they didn't know what to do when 1757 01:52:36,640 --> 01:52:41,560 Speaker 1: they see their soldier comrades, uh, you know, obviously collaborating 1758 01:52:41,600 --> 01:52:44,640 Speaker 1: with local narticles even though the over this guy in 1759 01:52:44,760 --> 01:52:46,960 Speaker 1: his unit have been sent in to wipe out the naticles. 1760 01:52:47,320 --> 01:52:50,439 Speaker 1: So what ends up happening is that the goal is 1761 01:52:50,479 --> 01:52:54,400 Speaker 1: never to eradicate the from a national level. From a 1762 01:52:54,479 --> 01:52:56,640 Speaker 1: state national level, the goal is never to eradicate the 1763 01:52:56,680 --> 01:52:58,759 Speaker 1: drug trade in Mexico in the sixties, seventies, and eighties. 1764 01:52:59,080 --> 01:53:00,800 Speaker 1: The goal is to rash realize that the goal is 1765 01:53:00,880 --> 01:53:04,240 Speaker 1: to control it and and the goal is for the 1766 01:53:04,439 --> 01:53:08,400 Speaker 1: state to be able to maintain power over it. And 1767 01:53:08,479 --> 01:53:10,559 Speaker 1: this is leads us to what you know, some scholars 1768 01:53:10,600 --> 01:53:12,960 Speaker 1: were referred to as a plasa system, right, that that 1769 01:53:13,479 --> 01:53:17,080 Speaker 1: that different narcotic organ traffic organizations will control different parts 1770 01:53:17,120 --> 01:53:20,320 Speaker 1: of Mexico, but the overall power, you know, they have 1771 01:53:20,439 --> 01:53:24,920 Speaker 1: to kick back to is our different state officials. Um. 1772 01:53:25,280 --> 01:53:29,760 Speaker 1: And that there's a recent book, really great book by 1773 01:53:29,840 --> 01:53:31,960 Speaker 1: Ben Smith called The Dope that just came out, really 1774 01:53:32,000 --> 01:53:35,240 Speaker 1: like the first really good English language big history of 1775 01:53:35,360 --> 01:53:38,680 Speaker 1: of the Mexican drug trade. And and he essentially he 1776 01:53:38,760 --> 01:53:42,760 Speaker 1: says that like, the Mexican state is a racket. It's 1777 01:53:42,800 --> 01:53:46,879 Speaker 1: a racket, and it's ensuring that this drug trade exists, 1778 01:53:47,080 --> 01:53:49,880 Speaker 1: and it's centralized and it's rationalized in the sixties, seventies 1779 01:53:49,920 --> 01:53:52,519 Speaker 1: and eighties, um. But by the nineties it starts to 1780 01:53:52,600 --> 01:53:55,439 Speaker 1: lose control as the state itself is neoliberalized and becomes 1781 01:53:55,479 --> 01:53:59,759 Speaker 1: smaller and its capacity to control these different groups becomes 1782 01:54:00,160 --> 01:54:04,760 Speaker 1: uh weekend. So so that's like the big national level, right, 1783 01:54:04,760 --> 01:54:06,160 Speaker 1: and then we think that takes us to the scale 1784 01:54:06,160 --> 01:54:08,240 Speaker 1: of the international which is a whole another thing. But 1785 01:54:08,360 --> 01:54:10,200 Speaker 1: at the very local level, what does this look like. 1786 01:54:10,360 --> 01:54:13,080 Speaker 1: It looks like if you're a drug farmer, right, because 1787 01:54:13,080 --> 01:54:15,160 Speaker 1: another thing in Garreto is that these drug farmers are 1788 01:54:15,680 --> 01:54:18,320 Speaker 1: like small scale right there. They're small scale, they have 1789 01:54:18,400 --> 01:54:21,960 Speaker 1: a little bit of autonomy, but they're small scale. But 1790 01:54:22,040 --> 01:54:24,760 Speaker 1: they're selling their product to these traffickers. And these are 1791 01:54:24,800 --> 01:54:28,639 Speaker 1: the traffickers usually that will have connections to local landed families, 1792 01:54:28,680 --> 01:54:32,360 Speaker 1: who have connections to military, to police, to politicians, um. 1793 01:54:32,560 --> 01:54:34,960 Speaker 1: That will ensure that this economy will will have will 1794 01:54:35,000 --> 01:54:37,760 Speaker 1: continue to thrive in a in a profitable way by 1795 01:54:37,800 --> 01:54:39,760 Speaker 1: the late seventies. And this is something else I think 1796 01:54:39,800 --> 01:54:42,400 Speaker 1: that I need a little bit more research on. But 1797 01:54:42,960 --> 01:54:45,280 Speaker 1: you see it happened elsewhere in Mexico, and especially in 1798 01:54:45,280 --> 01:54:47,560 Speaker 1: the northwest, in a place like Sinaroa, which is usually 1799 01:54:47,560 --> 01:54:50,000 Speaker 1: seen as the cradle of the Mexican drug trade. But 1800 01:54:50,080 --> 01:54:51,880 Speaker 1: I think in the late seventies, both in sin and 1801 01:54:52,840 --> 01:54:55,200 Speaker 1: the Dirty War and and the and the sending of 1802 01:54:55,240 --> 01:54:58,080 Speaker 1: the military and mass in a place like Garreto, it 1803 01:54:58,200 --> 01:55:00,960 Speaker 1: not only takes out armed resil into the Mexican state, 1804 01:55:01,000 --> 01:55:04,080 Speaker 1: but it will also take out small scale narco traffickers 1805 01:55:04,080 --> 01:55:07,000 Speaker 1: who don't want to play. They don't like the rules 1806 01:55:07,040 --> 01:55:09,280 Speaker 1: that the Mexican state is imposing upon them in order 1807 01:55:09,360 --> 01:55:12,320 Speaker 1: to make money and traffic drugs. Um. So I've seen 1808 01:55:12,320 --> 01:55:15,720 Speaker 1: a couple of documents where, um, you know, secret police, 1809 01:55:16,040 --> 01:55:19,520 Speaker 1: spy agent documents where they say, Okay, yes, you know 1810 01:55:19,600 --> 01:55:22,320 Speaker 1: these these campesinos who are accused of being guerillas. Yes 1811 01:55:22,400 --> 01:55:27,560 Speaker 1: we are disappearing them. But apparently some small scale drug 1812 01:55:27,600 --> 01:55:30,360 Speaker 1: traffickers are also being disappeared because they're not they don't 1813 01:55:30,400 --> 01:55:32,240 Speaker 1: want to go along with the rules being imposed by 1814 01:55:32,240 --> 01:55:35,680 Speaker 1: the Mexican military. And that's something that you see inca 1815 01:55:35,880 --> 01:55:38,760 Speaker 1: in the late seventies when something called Operation Condor gets 1816 01:55:38,840 --> 01:55:41,520 Speaker 1: launched and you get thousands of troops and federal police 1817 01:55:41,560 --> 01:55:44,120 Speaker 1: who go up there, and instead of eradicating the drug 1818 01:55:44,160 --> 01:55:47,560 Speaker 1: trade and getting rid of these different traffickers, what they 1819 01:55:47,600 --> 01:55:50,400 Speaker 1: do is they centralize it, they rationalize it, um, they 1820 01:55:50,480 --> 01:55:53,080 Speaker 1: make it more efficient, um. And that actually it's so 1821 01:55:53,160 --> 01:55:57,600 Speaker 1: it's in in a counterintuitive way, it's state violence that 1822 01:55:57,960 --> 01:56:00,440 Speaker 1: actually leads to the formation of things that we think 1823 01:56:00,480 --> 01:56:03,040 Speaker 1: about as cartels and not the other way around, right, 1824 01:56:03,040 --> 01:56:07,160 Speaker 1: because the very trade begins within the confines of the 1825 01:56:07,240 --> 01:56:10,360 Speaker 1: Mexican state. And in part two of this interview, we're 1826 01:56:10,360 --> 01:56:13,000 Speaker 1: gonna drill deeper into that question and look at how 1827 01:56:13,040 --> 01:56:14,760 Speaker 1: the state's attempt to get in on the drug trade, 1828 01:56:14,800 --> 01:56:16,840 Speaker 1: created the cartels and how they sort of lost control 1829 01:56:16,920 --> 01:56:19,320 Speaker 1: of them, leading to an incredible increase in pera military 1830 01:56:19,440 --> 01:56:22,400 Speaker 1: violence and death and destruction. And on that happy note 1831 01:56:22,440 --> 01:56:25,120 Speaker 1: that this has been it could happen here join us 1832 01:56:25,120 --> 01:56:29,600 Speaker 1: again tomorrow for that and in the meantime, stay safe 1833 01:56:29,640 --> 01:56:32,280 Speaker 1: and don't die. If you want to find us, we're 1834 01:56:32,440 --> 01:56:36,280 Speaker 1: at happen Here pot on Twitter, Instagram. You can also 1835 01:56:36,360 --> 01:56:38,880 Speaker 1: find other work that we do at cools on media 1836 01:56:39,000 --> 01:56:41,880 Speaker 1: on Twitter if for some reason you can. You want 1837 01:56:41,920 --> 01:56:45,000 Speaker 1: to continue venturing out of the house sides good bye. 1838 01:56:53,200 --> 01:56:55,920 Speaker 1: After thirty years, it's time to return to the halls 1839 01:56:55,960 --> 01:56:58,360 Speaker 1: of West Beverly High and hang out at the peach pit. 1840 01:56:58,640 --> 01:57:01,440 Speaker 1: On the podcast nine O It's You one, OMG joined 1841 01:57:01,520 --> 01:57:04,080 Speaker 1: Jenny Garth and Tori Spelling for a rewatch of the 1842 01:57:04,200 --> 01:57:06,800 Speaker 1: hit series Beverly Hills nine O two one oh. From 1843 01:57:06,840 --> 01:57:10,160 Speaker 1: the very beginning, we get to tell the fans all 1844 01:57:10,320 --> 01:57:12,800 Speaker 1: of the behind the scenes stories to actually happen, so 1845 01:57:13,240 --> 01:57:15,720 Speaker 1: they know what happened on camera obviously, but we can 1846 01:57:15,760 --> 01:57:18,160 Speaker 1: tell them all the good stuff that happened off camera. 1847 01:57:18,280 --> 01:57:21,080 Speaker 1: Get all the juicy details of every episode that you've 1848 01:57:21,120 --> 01:57:23,720 Speaker 1: been wondering about for decades. As nine O two one oh, 1849 01:57:23,880 --> 01:57:27,120 Speaker 1: super fan and radio host Sissany sits in with Jenny 1850 01:57:27,160 --> 01:57:30,640 Speaker 1: and Tory Too reminisce, reflect and relive each moment, from 1851 01:57:30,720 --> 01:57:34,440 Speaker 1: Brandon and Kelly's first kiss to shouting, Donna Martin graduates, 1852 01:57:34,760 --> 01:57:38,560 Speaker 1: you have an amazing memory. You remember everything about the 1853 01:57:38,760 --> 01:57:41,240 Speaker 1: entire ten years that we filmed that show, and you 1854 01:57:41,600 --> 01:57:44,760 Speaker 1: remember absolutely nothing of the ten years that we filmed 1855 01:57:45,120 --> 01:57:48,240 Speaker 1: that show. Listen to nine O two one OMG on 1856 01:57:48,320 --> 01:57:50,920 Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you 1857 01:57:51,040 --> 01:57:55,520 Speaker 1: get your podcasts. I'm Colleen what joined me, the host 1858 01:57:55,600 --> 01:57:58,280 Speaker 1: of Eating Wall Broke podcast, While I eat a meal 1859 01:57:58,400 --> 01:58:02,480 Speaker 1: created by self made entre breneurs, influencers and celebrities over 1860 01:58:02,520 --> 01:58:04,760 Speaker 1: a meal they once eight when they were broke. Today 1861 01:58:04,800 --> 01:58:07,840 Speaker 1: I have the lovely aj Crimson, the official Princess of 1862 01:58:08,000 --> 01:58:12,320 Speaker 1: comfin Asia, Kidding and Assia. This is the professor. We're 1863 01:58:12,360 --> 01:58:14,800 Speaker 1: here on Eating While Broke and today I'm gonna break 1864 01:58:14,880 --> 01:58:17,480 Speaker 1: down my meal that got me through a time when 1865 01:58:17,520 --> 01:58:20,080 Speaker 1: I was broken. Listen to Eating While Broke on the 1866 01:58:20,160 --> 01:58:23,120 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio app, on Apple podcast or wherever you 1867 01:58:23,200 --> 01:58:31,880 Speaker 1: get your podcasts. This is it could Happen Here, a 1868 01:58:31,920 --> 01:58:35,400 Speaker 1: podcast that is often in today about state and paramilitary violence. 1869 01:58:35,560 --> 01:58:38,240 Speaker 1: And we're back with part two of her interview with 1870 01:58:38,240 --> 01:58:42,920 Speaker 1: Alexander Vina about the state and paramilitary violence in the 1871 01:58:43,000 --> 01:58:45,960 Speaker 1: cartels in Mexico. The immediate thing I was thinking about 1872 01:58:45,960 --> 01:58:49,560 Speaker 1: this was it reminds me a lot of uh, some 1873 01:58:49,640 --> 01:58:54,560 Speaker 1: stuff I've read a while back about like smuggling people 1874 01:58:54,600 --> 01:58:58,120 Speaker 1: over the border and about how the American militarization of 1875 01:58:58,280 --> 01:59:02,440 Speaker 1: that like destroyed because it used to like as as 1876 01:59:02,480 --> 01:59:04,480 Speaker 1: the US tries to like make the border more and 1877 01:59:04,560 --> 01:59:06,400 Speaker 1: more unsafe, if it becomes harder and harder, and it 1878 01:59:06,480 --> 01:59:08,000 Speaker 1: means that like the people who can actually do it, 1879 01:59:08,400 --> 01:59:10,440 Speaker 1: like you know, you need to have access to more 1880 01:59:10,480 --> 01:59:14,680 Speaker 1: resources and more like technical capability. And that's sort of 1881 01:59:14,800 --> 01:59:17,040 Speaker 1: like and that that also in a lot of ways 1882 01:59:17,080 --> 01:59:20,120 Speaker 1: help the cartels because you know it, well, it's like, okay, 1883 01:59:20,160 --> 01:59:22,840 Speaker 1: so who actually has a bunch of organizational expertise with 1884 01:59:22,880 --> 01:59:25,560 Speaker 1: smuggling routes and a lot of money And it's it's 1885 01:59:25,600 --> 01:59:27,360 Speaker 1: and I think that's like it is it's an interesting 1886 01:59:29,040 --> 01:59:32,520 Speaker 1: way of looking at what the national application of state 1887 01:59:32,560 --> 01:59:35,640 Speaker 1: power in these like it does, which is that like 1888 01:59:37,480 --> 01:59:40,760 Speaker 1: it's it seems almost like what's happening is that so 1889 01:59:41,120 --> 01:59:43,520 Speaker 1: when when you get these massive exertion to state power, 1890 01:59:43,640 --> 01:59:46,480 Speaker 1: it's not that they like flatten like you know, it's 1891 01:59:46,480 --> 01:59:48,000 Speaker 1: not that they just sort of wipe out out resistance. 1892 01:59:48,040 --> 01:59:52,120 Speaker 1: What they do is they yeah, it's what you were saying, 1893 01:59:52,160 --> 01:59:53,920 Speaker 1: is like they centralize the drug trip, but they also 1894 01:59:54,040 --> 01:59:56,280 Speaker 1: they centralize the sort of violent apparatus. And it means 1895 01:59:56,320 --> 01:59:58,400 Speaker 1: that like yeah, if if, if you're going to survive 1896 01:59:58,520 --> 02:00:02,960 Speaker 1: that you have to be like incredibly efficient, incredibly violent. 1897 02:00:03,040 --> 02:00:07,280 Speaker 1: You have to also sort of start like you you 1898 02:00:07,440 --> 02:00:09,640 Speaker 1: have to start playing with it, like playing by the 1899 02:00:09,760 --> 02:00:12,800 Speaker 1: rules at the state of exception, which is you know, 1900 02:00:12,920 --> 02:00:16,640 Speaker 1: and that's that's like how I guess the violence level 1901 02:00:16,680 --> 02:00:21,920 Speaker 1: and the organizational centralization happens. Yeah, I think it's yeah, No, 1902 02:00:22,160 --> 02:00:23,760 Speaker 1: I think you're I think you're right. And I think 1903 02:00:23,920 --> 02:00:27,760 Speaker 1: it's also becomes part of the to add I mean, 1904 02:00:27,880 --> 02:00:30,400 Speaker 1: so to add you know, fuel to the fire. Even 1905 02:00:30,440 --> 02:00:33,040 Speaker 1: more so, it's become a strategy of like the d 1906 02:00:33,120 --> 02:00:36,280 Speaker 1: e A and and and counter our catics forces in 1907 02:00:36,360 --> 02:00:39,240 Speaker 1: Mexico to to do what you just describe, but then 1908 02:00:39,320 --> 02:00:42,960 Speaker 1: also to sow dissension amongst the different drug trafficking organizations. Right. 1909 02:00:43,040 --> 02:00:46,520 Speaker 1: So um, that then also increases the violence. Right. So 1910 02:00:46,760 --> 02:00:48,960 Speaker 1: if you can get you know it was it was 1911 02:00:48,960 --> 02:00:52,160 Speaker 1: pretty well none that the chapel, for instance, the leader 1912 02:00:52,200 --> 02:00:54,800 Speaker 1: of the Senetta cartel until well, let's not say leader 1913 02:00:54,840 --> 02:00:57,480 Speaker 1: one of the most prominent traffickers of the Senato cartelntil recently, 1914 02:00:57,920 --> 02:01:00,520 Speaker 1: like he was giving up people. He was giving information 1915 02:01:00,640 --> 02:01:03,360 Speaker 1: on rivals to the d A and to other other 1916 02:01:04,240 --> 02:01:07,160 Speaker 1: counting arcotics forces, right, And that's part of the strategy. 1917 02:01:07,200 --> 02:01:10,560 Speaker 1: The strategy is to fragment these groups. Um. And that 1918 02:01:10,720 --> 02:01:13,520 Speaker 1: only concreases the violence. And and you see that violence 1919 02:01:13,560 --> 02:01:16,920 Speaker 1: at the very localized level. Um. And this is what 1920 02:01:17,000 --> 02:01:19,600 Speaker 1: Geretto suffering from right now. Right, Gretto for a long 1921 02:01:19,680 --> 02:01:24,280 Speaker 1: time under the control of one single drug trafficking organization, 1922 02:01:24,320 --> 02:01:28,560 Speaker 1: slash family from the state of sinaloas right, they used 1923 02:01:28,640 --> 02:01:31,800 Speaker 1: they were originally aligned with their actually cousins with the 1924 02:01:31,920 --> 02:01:34,480 Speaker 1: Chapabuzman's family. They had a falling out and they made 1925 02:01:34,520 --> 02:01:36,640 Speaker 1: two thousands and they and they went to war. And 1926 02:01:36,720 --> 02:01:39,680 Speaker 1: I had disastrous consequences for the people of Guereto because 1927 02:01:39,680 --> 02:01:43,800 Speaker 1: it fragmented the drug trafficking organizations and it forced different 1928 02:01:43,840 --> 02:01:46,960 Speaker 1: local groups to take sides, um. And And that's kind 1929 02:01:46,960 --> 02:01:49,520 Speaker 1: of how I am the article that that you're referencing, right, um, 1930 02:01:49,960 --> 02:01:52,240 Speaker 1: where different local groups start to take sides, and that 1931 02:01:52,320 --> 02:01:55,760 Speaker 1: increases the level of violence at the local level and 1932 02:01:55,880 --> 02:01:59,440 Speaker 1: and and communities suffer greatly. Um. And that's also a 1933 02:01:59,480 --> 02:02:02,120 Speaker 1: consequence of like the kingpin strategy, right, Like this idea 1934 02:02:02,160 --> 02:02:04,640 Speaker 1: that if you take down the perceived leader of a 1935 02:02:04,680 --> 02:02:08,040 Speaker 1: drug trafficing organization, that's somehow going to have an impact 1936 02:02:08,160 --> 02:02:10,720 Speaker 1: on drug production. You know, what actually happens that it 1937 02:02:10,800 --> 02:02:13,840 Speaker 1: fragments the organization and it creates more violence at the 1938 02:02:13,880 --> 02:02:15,920 Speaker 1: local level. Well, at the same time, it gives a 1939 02:02:16,000 --> 02:02:18,720 Speaker 1: chance to like xd agents to go on like you know, 1940 02:02:19,000 --> 02:02:20,720 Speaker 1: national media and be like, oh, yes, the capture of 1941 02:02:20,760 --> 02:02:23,280 Speaker 1: the chapel is gonna have a great impact the drug trade. No, 1942 02:02:23,440 --> 02:02:26,400 Speaker 1: well not like it increases the violence. And I think 1943 02:02:26,400 --> 02:02:28,560 Speaker 1: that the thing that that that's very clear from this article. 1944 02:02:28,560 --> 02:02:30,080 Speaker 1: And I think it's clear if you you know, if 1945 02:02:30,120 --> 02:02:32,000 Speaker 1: you look at the drug trade, is it's like, no, 1946 02:02:32,600 --> 02:02:34,760 Speaker 1: it's it's it's it's largely economic stuff. And like one 1947 02:02:34,760 --> 02:02:37,080 Speaker 1: of the thinks you're talking about is is you know 1948 02:02:37,280 --> 02:02:39,160 Speaker 1: it is that these peasants who are the people who 1949 02:02:39,200 --> 02:02:41,000 Speaker 1: have been able to hold onto the collective land basically 1950 02:02:41,640 --> 02:02:44,240 Speaker 1: get forced by the lamb bankes to like produce sesame 1951 02:02:44,320 --> 02:02:45,720 Speaker 1: and it's like they can't make any money off of 1952 02:02:45,760 --> 02:02:50,200 Speaker 1: it and don't I don't know how directly it looked 1953 02:02:50,240 --> 02:02:51,920 Speaker 1: to me a lot like like that was directly one 1954 02:02:51,960 --> 02:02:55,440 Speaker 1: of the things that starts to lead to the shift 1955 02:02:55,480 --> 02:02:56,920 Speaker 1: to the drug trade there, because you have all these 1956 02:02:56,960 --> 02:03:03,280 Speaker 1: people locked into this crop that like just can't support them. Yeah, yeah, 1957 02:03:03,360 --> 02:03:06,360 Speaker 1: And it's it's just the bigger story there is is 1958 02:03:06,400 --> 02:03:09,480 Speaker 1: really the failure of the post revolutionary Mexican state too 1959 02:03:10,520 --> 02:03:14,720 Speaker 1: UM to really help spur agricultural production at the level 1960 02:03:14,840 --> 02:03:17,720 Speaker 1: of of these small holding peasants and and these rural 1961 02:03:17,760 --> 02:03:20,920 Speaker 1: communities that are these ahelos who have received land from 1962 02:03:20,960 --> 02:03:24,120 Speaker 1: the Mexican state. UM. If anything, most of the state 1963 02:03:24,200 --> 02:03:28,760 Speaker 1: subsidies in the state structure, state support for agriculture from 1964 02:03:28,840 --> 02:03:31,720 Speaker 1: the forties, you know, up until the eighties, that was 1965 02:03:31,800 --> 02:03:35,200 Speaker 1: all directed to big agro businesses that were producing export 1966 02:03:35,240 --> 02:03:37,480 Speaker 1: crops in places like sea at all, Right, they're producing 1967 02:03:37,520 --> 02:03:39,960 Speaker 1: winter crops for the American market or winter fruit for 1968 02:03:40,000 --> 02:03:42,680 Speaker 1: the American market. Right, So in the absence of like 1969 02:03:42,800 --> 02:03:46,360 Speaker 1: meaningful state support for small holding agriculture, that small holding 1970 02:03:46,360 --> 02:03:50,880 Speaker 1: agricultural sector that is meant to feed Mexico. Um. You know, 1971 02:03:51,080 --> 02:03:53,040 Speaker 1: some of these these farmers in a place like call 1972 02:03:53,040 --> 02:03:55,600 Speaker 1: you and they'll say, Okay, well, we were growing this 1973 02:03:55,760 --> 02:03:58,480 Speaker 1: thing that the the Agricultural Bank is telling us to 1974 02:03:58,520 --> 02:04:00,640 Speaker 1: grow sesame, but we're not making lot of money off 1975 02:04:00,680 --> 02:04:02,400 Speaker 1: of it. But on the other hand, by the late sixties, 1976 02:04:02,440 --> 02:04:05,640 Speaker 1: they see that marijuana production is is really increasing due 1977 02:04:05,680 --> 02:04:09,600 Speaker 1: to American demand. If I can do both things, you know, 1978 02:04:09,640 --> 02:04:11,320 Speaker 1: I'm gonna make a lot of money, and I'm gonna 1979 02:04:11,320 --> 02:04:14,400 Speaker 1: allow my family to make a pretty good living while 1980 02:04:14,480 --> 02:04:16,800 Speaker 1: staying in the countryside, while not having to migrate to 1981 02:04:16,880 --> 02:04:19,920 Speaker 1: Mexico City, or while not having to migrate to these 1982 02:04:19,960 --> 02:04:23,000 Speaker 1: agricultural fields in northern Mexico or even into the United States. 1983 02:04:23,400 --> 02:04:26,760 Speaker 1: So because it's a really rational economic response to to 1984 02:04:27,160 --> 02:04:29,960 Speaker 1: to a broader macroeconomic situation that has put them in 1985 02:04:30,040 --> 02:04:33,360 Speaker 1: that position. The and and you still see this to 1986 02:04:33,440 --> 02:04:36,960 Speaker 1: this day. Right, these these small farmers, they still own 1987 02:04:37,000 --> 02:04:40,040 Speaker 1: their land, they'll grow certain crops on it, and it's 1988 02:04:40,040 --> 02:04:42,760 Speaker 1: almost serves as a shield for um. You know, the 1989 02:04:42,840 --> 02:04:45,200 Speaker 1: opium poppies that they're growing on the same plot of land, 1990 02:04:45,240 --> 02:04:47,440 Speaker 1: but in a part that's a little you know, harder 1991 02:04:47,480 --> 02:04:50,160 Speaker 1: to access and it's a little bit more hidden, right, Um. 1992 02:04:50,520 --> 02:04:53,000 Speaker 1: But it's it's it's trying to find a way at 1993 02:04:53,080 --> 02:04:55,920 Speaker 1: a bottom to make a dignifity, you know, how to 1994 02:04:56,000 --> 02:04:58,080 Speaker 1: make a life of dignity for your family when you're 1995 02:04:58,120 --> 02:05:00,280 Speaker 1: living in the in the countryside, when you're living in 1996 02:05:00,320 --> 02:05:04,200 Speaker 1: a place like and then you see that, you know, 1997 02:05:04,240 --> 02:05:07,080 Speaker 1: the Getingos are going crazy over a cap gold in 1998 02:05:07,160 --> 02:05:10,120 Speaker 1: the late sixties. Um, and you have uh, you know 1999 02:05:10,400 --> 02:05:14,360 Speaker 1: North Gengo traffickers coming into get Ready with new seeds. Um. 2000 02:05:14,600 --> 02:05:16,720 Speaker 1: Or you have set a lewnce is coming into your 2001 02:05:16,720 --> 02:05:18,960 Speaker 1: state saying, you know, grow these here are some marijuana 2002 02:05:19,000 --> 02:05:22,640 Speaker 1: sees grow that strain um, you know, and they can 2003 02:05:22,680 --> 02:05:26,000 Speaker 1: buy off you know, local politicians and soldiers and police. 2004 02:05:26,080 --> 02:05:28,800 Speaker 1: That's that's one of the ways that you get the 2005 02:05:28,880 --> 02:05:33,839 Speaker 1: emergence of industrial proportion production of marijuana and and opium 2006 02:05:33,840 --> 02:05:36,560 Speaker 1: poppies and garred in the sixties and seventies and again 2007 02:05:37,120 --> 02:05:39,320 Speaker 1: at the same time that this massive dirty war is 2008 02:05:39,360 --> 02:05:42,520 Speaker 1: being waged against two different peasant guerrilla movements. Right, So 2009 02:05:42,560 --> 02:05:46,120 Speaker 1: it's like a really messy like social matrix that's occurring 2010 02:05:46,160 --> 02:05:48,880 Speaker 1: at the same time. I guess one everything I wanted 2011 02:05:48,880 --> 02:05:54,200 Speaker 1: to talk about was about how the political parties sort 2012 02:05:54,240 --> 02:05:58,520 Speaker 1: of work into this, because I guess, like my experience 2013 02:05:58,560 --> 02:06:01,000 Speaker 1: with this sort of like the the kind of like 2014 02:06:01,120 --> 02:06:04,400 Speaker 1: narco state fusions with like twenties and thirties China and there, 2015 02:06:04,480 --> 02:06:08,720 Speaker 1: it's like like you're you're I don't know. I mean, 2016 02:06:08,800 --> 02:06:12,640 Speaker 1: the Communists have an actual independent political base outside of 2017 02:06:12,760 --> 02:06:14,920 Speaker 1: like like the Green Gang, but like the k MT, 2018 02:06:15,240 --> 02:06:19,520 Speaker 1: it's like like this is basically just a like like 2019 02:06:19,640 --> 02:06:21,520 Speaker 1: this like this is this is just like an arco 2020 02:06:21,920 --> 02:06:25,160 Speaker 1: organization with like a flag planted on it. And I'm 2021 02:06:25,280 --> 02:06:30,000 Speaker 1: I'm wondering how like on what end of the scale 2022 02:06:30,480 --> 02:06:32,880 Speaker 1: we're working with with the p R and also also 2023 02:06:33,120 --> 02:06:35,240 Speaker 1: like with with the other Mexican parties, because it seems 2024 02:06:35,280 --> 02:06:38,800 Speaker 1: like there are like parts of like a functional state 2025 02:06:38,840 --> 02:06:41,520 Speaker 1: app like a party state appartus or like a party apparatus, 2026 02:06:41,560 --> 02:06:43,840 Speaker 1: and then parts of it that are just like this 2027 02:06:44,000 --> 02:06:47,760 Speaker 1: is a cartel. Yeah, it's it's that's a huge question. 2028 02:06:47,840 --> 02:06:51,680 Speaker 1: It's it's um yes, I resistant no, no, no, it's 2029 02:06:51,680 --> 02:06:56,360 Speaker 1: all good. I've I've stopped understanding this within the framework 2030 02:06:56,400 --> 02:06:58,400 Speaker 1: of like an ARCO state, right, because to think about 2031 02:06:58,400 --> 02:07:01,880 Speaker 1: an ARCO state, you really have to think about how 2032 02:07:02,040 --> 02:07:05,200 Speaker 1: a state was captured by these drug trafficking organizations. And 2033 02:07:05,440 --> 02:07:08,400 Speaker 1: and I historically and currently I don't think that describes 2034 02:07:08,440 --> 02:07:11,440 Speaker 1: what's what's happening in Mexico. Um, I think what you would. 2035 02:07:11,520 --> 02:07:12,920 Speaker 1: And again it goes back to the question of what 2036 02:07:13,080 --> 02:07:15,880 Speaker 1: is the state, right, Like the questions drive like just 2037 02:07:17,040 --> 02:07:20,680 Speaker 1: I'm gonna be thinking about this decade, right, But because 2038 02:07:20,720 --> 02:07:23,280 Speaker 1: you have, you know you have. It depends on what 2039 02:07:23,480 --> 02:07:25,560 Speaker 1: part of the Mexican state you're also referring to. Right. 2040 02:07:25,600 --> 02:07:27,560 Speaker 1: So if we're talking about the military, the military has 2041 02:07:27,640 --> 02:07:29,640 Speaker 1: all segments of the military. I have always had an 2042 02:07:29,640 --> 02:07:32,720 Speaker 1: important role to play in the production and trafficking of 2043 02:07:33,320 --> 02:07:36,600 Speaker 1: narcotics from Mexico into the US from the from like 2044 02:07:36,680 --> 02:07:40,400 Speaker 1: the nineteen tens, right, the military governor of Baja California, 2045 02:07:40,760 --> 02:07:44,320 Speaker 1: this guy by the name of Colonel Estevan Kantu. He 2046 02:07:44,560 --> 02:07:48,720 Speaker 1: was helping traffic opium um into the United States during 2047 02:07:48,760 --> 02:07:51,839 Speaker 1: the Mexican Revolution, Right, And this has been a constant rum. 2048 02:07:52,240 --> 02:07:54,720 Speaker 1: The guys that I talked about in my article this 2049 02:07:54,840 --> 02:07:58,680 Speaker 1: guy Um who ends up he he's a general by 2050 02:07:58,720 --> 02:08:01,400 Speaker 1: the time he's he's arrested in two two. But this guy, 2051 02:08:01,840 --> 02:08:06,320 Speaker 1: Mario Costao, he was like the main counterinsurgent, theorist and 2052 02:08:06,480 --> 02:08:10,080 Speaker 1: and and and bright mind of the Mexican military that 2053 02:08:10,120 --> 02:08:12,040 Speaker 1: gets sent to get right on the seventies to wipe 2054 02:08:12,080 --> 02:08:14,840 Speaker 1: out these different guerrilla movements. But he's after they wipe 2055 02:08:14,840 --> 02:08:17,520 Speaker 1: out the gerrilla movements, he stays on. He serves as 2056 02:08:17,960 --> 02:08:19,600 Speaker 1: as a kind of like the leader of the state 2057 02:08:19,640 --> 02:08:21,120 Speaker 1: police forces. And what do he starts to do. He 2058 02:08:21,160 --> 02:08:24,839 Speaker 1: starts to buy up land allegedly that will start producing 2059 02:08:24,920 --> 02:08:28,040 Speaker 1: opium poppies and marijuana. And this guy from the late 2060 02:08:28,120 --> 02:08:31,200 Speaker 1: seventies up until he's arrested in two thousand, it's pretty 2061 02:08:31,240 --> 02:08:33,560 Speaker 1: clear that had he had been collaborating with different narco 2062 02:08:33,600 --> 02:08:38,360 Speaker 1: trafficking organizations. He gets arrested by his own military um 2063 02:08:38,480 --> 02:08:41,120 Speaker 1: in two thousand because he it was pretty clear that 2064 02:08:41,320 --> 02:08:43,920 Speaker 1: he had been protecting and collaborating with this You have 2065 02:08:44,040 --> 02:08:48,960 Speaker 1: Guada's cartel and I'm a Lookio fuentis Um, so you 2066 02:08:49,040 --> 02:08:52,000 Speaker 1: know one of these like anti anti guerrilla, anti nautical 2067 02:08:52,320 --> 02:08:56,000 Speaker 1: nauticles that will you know, actually get go to jail 2068 02:08:56,280 --> 02:08:59,000 Speaker 1: for about six years, UM, because it was pretty apparent 2069 02:08:59,120 --> 02:09:01,560 Speaker 1: that he had been for long time collaborating and protecting 2070 02:09:01,720 --> 02:09:04,760 Speaker 1: the different narco trafficking organizations. Right. So that's the military. 2071 02:09:05,120 --> 02:09:07,880 Speaker 1: Then you have like the secret police that gets formed 2072 02:09:07,880 --> 02:09:12,280 Speaker 1: in Mexico, the DFS, and with the help of the FBI, UM, 2073 02:09:12,560 --> 02:09:15,280 Speaker 1: the DFS becomes like this political police that the Mexican 2074 02:09:15,320 --> 02:09:18,160 Speaker 1: president can use to tamp down on political descent. They're 2075 02:09:18,200 --> 02:09:22,160 Speaker 1: the ones, you know spine surveillance by the sixties and seventies, 2076 02:09:22,160 --> 02:09:25,600 Speaker 1: are also torturing, disappearing, and with that level of impunity 2077 02:09:25,600 --> 02:09:27,360 Speaker 1: and power, they also get into the drug game. By 2078 02:09:27,360 --> 02:09:30,680 Speaker 1: the seventies and eighties. Um, you have the federal judicial Police. 2079 02:09:30,800 --> 02:09:33,480 Speaker 1: They're the ones who control for this during the fifties, sixties, 2080 02:09:33,480 --> 02:09:36,440 Speaker 1: and seventies. Really they're the ones who are controlling, um, 2081 02:09:36,720 --> 02:09:39,640 Speaker 1: the kickbacks that they're receiving from narco traffickers until the 2082 02:09:39,720 --> 02:09:42,720 Speaker 1: military moves in the seventies and takes over for them. Right. 2083 02:09:42,760 --> 02:09:45,840 Speaker 1: So the repressive apparatus is within the Mexican state of 2084 02:09:45,880 --> 02:09:48,040 Speaker 1: the twentie century play a really key role, if not 2085 02:09:48,200 --> 02:09:52,280 Speaker 1: the role and helping foster create this this political economy 2086 02:09:52,280 --> 02:09:55,600 Speaker 1: of narcotics. Now, how do how do we view that 2087 02:09:55,680 --> 02:09:58,800 Speaker 1: in relation to the p r I right, the party 2088 02:09:58,840 --> 02:10:01,040 Speaker 1: that emerges from the Mexican Revolution, the party that will 2089 02:10:01,120 --> 02:10:04,000 Speaker 1: rule Mexico generally will say, from the late twenties up 2090 02:10:04,040 --> 02:10:06,400 Speaker 1: until the year two thousand, Well, you have pretty important, 2091 02:10:06,600 --> 02:10:09,640 Speaker 1: you know, political officials within the party throughout the twinute 2092 02:10:09,680 --> 02:10:12,640 Speaker 1: century that are directly linked to narco traffickers and directly 2093 02:10:12,680 --> 02:10:15,160 Speaker 1: linked to military officials who are obviously involved in the 2094 02:10:15,240 --> 02:10:17,560 Speaker 1: game as well. But at no level can we say 2095 02:10:17,600 --> 02:10:20,040 Speaker 1: it's a narco state because the n arcos having captured 2096 02:10:20,080 --> 02:10:22,320 Speaker 1: the state. It's actually the other way around. It's the 2097 02:10:22,400 --> 02:10:25,680 Speaker 1: Mexican post revolutionary state that's trying to get its hands 2098 02:10:25,720 --> 02:10:30,000 Speaker 1: around this thing that's growing within its own confines, and 2099 02:10:30,240 --> 02:10:32,080 Speaker 1: and and by and they lose control of it. Like 2100 02:10:32,200 --> 02:10:35,440 Speaker 1: by the late eighties and nineties, they've effectively lost control 2101 02:10:35,520 --> 02:10:37,440 Speaker 1: of this thing. And that's when you see the rise 2102 02:10:37,520 --> 02:10:41,400 Speaker 1: of these um highly centralized drug trafficking organizations like this. 2103 02:10:41,480 --> 02:10:43,880 Speaker 1: You have uttest cartel that's making a ton of money 2104 02:10:43,920 --> 02:10:48,280 Speaker 1: off the cocaine. So I guess it seems like it's 2105 02:10:48,280 --> 02:10:51,560 Speaker 1: almost like you're dealing with from from from the very 2106 02:10:51,720 --> 02:10:54,080 Speaker 1: very local level where you have these sort of landed 2107 02:10:54,120 --> 02:10:58,400 Speaker 1: elites and their gun slingers. It's like it's this almost 2108 02:10:58,440 --> 02:11:02,400 Speaker 1: sort of like like miniaturized, fractal version of the state 2109 02:11:02,440 --> 02:11:05,040 Speaker 1: where's like you're getting these like very very small sort 2110 02:11:05,080 --> 02:11:08,680 Speaker 1: of like uh you know, like almost like fetal domains 2111 02:11:08,680 --> 02:11:10,680 Speaker 1: and that they sort of expand upwards and stand upwards. 2112 02:11:10,960 --> 02:11:13,640 Speaker 1: But yeah, and I guess the interesting part to me 2113 02:11:13,800 --> 02:11:16,680 Speaker 1: is is how like the paramilitary dynamics of that, and 2114 02:11:16,800 --> 02:11:19,440 Speaker 1: how how the power of these sort of land at 2115 02:11:19,480 --> 02:11:23,160 Speaker 1: least into power, Like how how it's like like the power, 2116 02:11:23,320 --> 02:11:25,680 Speaker 1: like the the use of power from the top seems 2117 02:11:25,720 --> 02:11:28,840 Speaker 1: to strengthen them. Where you know, if if you're looking 2118 02:11:28,880 --> 02:11:34,000 Speaker 1: at this from like like how how this is supposed 2119 02:11:34,040 --> 02:11:36,240 Speaker 1: to work in theory, if you're someone who actually like 2120 02:11:36,240 --> 02:11:37,880 Speaker 1: trying to eliminate the drug trade, you think would be 2121 02:11:37,960 --> 02:11:39,760 Speaker 1: the way around that, like the application of power would 2122 02:11:39,800 --> 02:11:43,160 Speaker 1: shatter but it sort of doesn't. It causes these like 2123 02:11:43,360 --> 02:11:46,560 Speaker 1: these these build ups, these apparatus is and then they 2124 02:11:46,640 --> 02:11:49,200 Speaker 1: fragment and they rebuild again. But it's you're not ever 2125 02:11:51,520 --> 02:11:58,840 Speaker 1: actually dealing with these sort of like micro state like yeah, yeah, no, 2126 02:11:58,960 --> 02:12:03,680 Speaker 1: I think that's exactly where and if anything, the paramilitarization 2127 02:12:03,760 --> 02:12:06,560 Speaker 1: is also like a like a long it's a process, right, 2128 02:12:06,640 --> 02:12:09,520 Speaker 1: So like the first if we can use this term, 2129 02:12:09,560 --> 02:12:13,080 Speaker 1: the first paramilitaries were used to wipe out a gray 2130 02:12:13,120 --> 02:12:16,320 Speaker 1: and reform minded Campasinos in the thirties and forties. Um, 2131 02:12:17,080 --> 02:12:19,720 Speaker 1: but you don't really have like a paramilitarization of of 2132 02:12:20,200 --> 02:12:24,080 Speaker 1: of the drug trade in Mexico to a certain extent, 2133 02:12:24,160 --> 02:12:25,920 Speaker 1: because you have the military and the police to do 2134 02:12:26,040 --> 02:12:29,120 Speaker 1: your dirty work. Right if you're a nautical UM. That's 2135 02:12:29,120 --> 02:12:31,080 Speaker 1: a more recent phenomenon that you start to see in 2136 02:12:31,120 --> 02:12:33,400 Speaker 1: the nineties and especially in the two thousand's. So right 2137 02:12:33,480 --> 02:12:36,960 Speaker 1: that the case that everyone points to are these the 2138 02:12:37,040 --> 02:12:39,560 Speaker 1: elite of the elite in the Mexican military. The gossis 2139 02:12:39,720 --> 02:12:43,040 Speaker 1: these guys are like the Navy seals of the Special Force, 2140 02:12:43,200 --> 02:12:46,520 Speaker 1: you know, the Army rangers the Mexican military. A bunch 2141 02:12:46,560 --> 02:12:48,640 Speaker 1: of these guys in the mid to late nineties decide, 2142 02:12:48,720 --> 02:12:50,720 Speaker 1: you know what, we don't want to work for the 2143 02:12:50,800 --> 02:12:53,800 Speaker 1: Mexican military. We're just gonna We're gonna dessert and we're 2144 02:12:53,800 --> 02:12:56,760 Speaker 1: gonna go hire ourselves out to the Gulf cartel. And 2145 02:12:57,040 --> 02:13:00,080 Speaker 1: they become really the first like paramilitary wing of a 2146 02:13:00,200 --> 02:13:03,480 Speaker 1: major drug trafficking organization. And these are guys, some of 2147 02:13:03,560 --> 02:13:06,760 Speaker 1: which probably most likely were trained at school the Americas 2148 02:13:06,840 --> 02:13:11,000 Speaker 1: or received American specialized training, now switching sides and and 2149 02:13:11,120 --> 02:13:15,040 Speaker 1: and protecting a pretty powerful drug trafficking organization, like at 2150 02:13:15,080 --> 02:13:17,480 Speaker 1: the time in the nineties that was the Gulf Cartel. 2151 02:13:18,240 --> 02:13:20,040 Speaker 1: And these are the infamous set Us, right, these are 2152 02:13:20,080 --> 02:13:22,640 Speaker 1: the zs um. They're called the set Us because that 2153 02:13:22,760 --> 02:13:24,480 Speaker 1: was like their military code. There was always a Z 2154 02:13:24,680 --> 02:13:27,400 Speaker 1: in front of a number. UM, so Z one was 2155 02:13:27,480 --> 02:13:29,400 Speaker 1: kind of like the leader, the first guy who took 2156 02:13:29,560 --> 02:13:32,320 Speaker 1: twelve or thirteen guys with him to desert and they 2157 02:13:32,400 --> 02:13:35,680 Speaker 1: hired themselves out to this drug trafficking organization and they 2158 02:13:35,800 --> 02:13:38,840 Speaker 1: become like the paramilitary unit. The rest of the group 2159 02:13:38,920 --> 02:13:40,440 Speaker 1: see that and they're like, oh ship, Like we gotta 2160 02:13:40,480 --> 02:13:43,560 Speaker 1: catch up, right because these like and these guys the 2161 02:13:43,640 --> 02:13:47,320 Speaker 1: god is you know, they have counter andsurgency experience. You know, 2162 02:13:47,360 --> 02:13:49,520 Speaker 1: they were the ones who were fighting against US and 2163 02:13:49,560 --> 02:13:52,000 Speaker 1: chiapas in the early nineties, right, they were the ones 2164 02:13:52,040 --> 02:13:55,000 Speaker 1: that they were sending to ye. They were the ones 2165 02:13:55,080 --> 02:13:58,200 Speaker 1: who were fighting against the new cycle of guerrillas that 2166 02:13:58,280 --> 02:14:00,440 Speaker 1: emerging get in the mid nineties that e p R. 2167 02:14:01,520 --> 02:14:03,879 Speaker 1: And then when they're used for counting our context operations, 2168 02:14:04,000 --> 02:14:05,800 Speaker 1: they look at the situation they say, you know what, 2169 02:14:06,480 --> 02:14:07,960 Speaker 1: we're not going to fight on the side of the military. 2170 02:14:08,000 --> 02:14:10,240 Speaker 1: We're gonna hire ourselves out to these this golf cartel. 2171 02:14:10,240 --> 02:14:12,840 Speaker 1: We're gonna make a ton of money. Um. But they 2172 02:14:12,920 --> 02:14:15,000 Speaker 1: have a lot of skills, right. So the rest of 2173 02:14:15,040 --> 02:14:17,120 Speaker 1: the so the rest of the drug traffic organizations see that, 2174 02:14:17,160 --> 02:14:19,600 Speaker 1: and they're like, we gotta play catch up, and and 2175 02:14:19,840 --> 02:14:22,440 Speaker 1: and and you see the paramilitarization of this conflict, and 2176 02:14:22,520 --> 02:14:25,800 Speaker 1: and in certain parts that's what's driving UM. I think 2177 02:14:25,840 --> 02:14:27,960 Speaker 1: has has played a really big role in driving some 2178 02:14:28,080 --> 02:14:30,240 Speaker 1: of the bloodshed and violence that we've seen in Mexico, 2179 02:14:30,240 --> 02:14:33,320 Speaker 1: particularly since two thousand six. But we can speak of 2180 02:14:34,440 --> 02:14:38,200 Speaker 1: probably four hundred thousand homicides since two thousand six, at 2181 02:14:38,320 --> 02:14:41,360 Speaker 1: least a hundred thousand disappearances. UM. A lot of that 2182 02:14:41,440 --> 02:14:43,240 Speaker 1: has to do with, you know, the people who are 2183 02:14:43,320 --> 02:14:47,760 Speaker 1: fighting our our paramilitaries, right they're receiving training from Colombian 2184 02:14:47,800 --> 02:14:52,120 Speaker 1: military advisors, They're receiving training from Israeli military officials, they're 2185 02:14:52,120 --> 02:14:56,880 Speaker 1: receiving training from UM Guatemalan special forces. These guys called 2186 02:14:56,920 --> 02:14:59,880 Speaker 1: the Kails who committed some of the worst atrocities during 2187 02:15:00,000 --> 02:15:03,320 Speaker 1: Guatemalan conflict of the of the of the seventies and eighties. Um, 2188 02:15:03,680 --> 02:15:07,480 Speaker 1: My families from Meat, which is a state north of Gerrito. 2189 02:15:07,680 --> 02:15:11,680 Speaker 1: And I remember when probably two thousand five, six or seven, 2190 02:15:11,760 --> 02:15:14,320 Speaker 1: I was down there doing research and Disney family, and 2191 02:15:14,560 --> 02:15:17,760 Speaker 1: they reported on the arrest of to Guatemalans and two 2192 02:15:17,920 --> 02:15:22,240 Speaker 1: Colombians in this random of far off part of Meat. 2193 02:15:22,640 --> 02:15:24,360 Speaker 1: And You're like, what were these two Colombians and two 2194 02:15:24,400 --> 02:15:27,680 Speaker 1: Guatemalans doing there? While they were most likely like special 2195 02:15:27,920 --> 02:15:30,800 Speaker 1: X special forces in those countries, militaries who had been 2196 02:15:30,880 --> 02:15:35,240 Speaker 1: hired by local organizations to train their their their soldiers, 2197 02:15:35,320 --> 02:15:38,720 Speaker 1: to train their their paramilitaries. Um. So that that's I 2198 02:15:38,800 --> 02:15:41,280 Speaker 1: think that has driven a lot of the violence, right, 2199 02:15:41,320 --> 02:15:43,960 Speaker 1: And you see it's in terms of techniques they use, 2200 02:15:44,040 --> 02:15:47,800 Speaker 1: the weapons, the armament, the logics of of how to 2201 02:15:47,960 --> 02:15:51,480 Speaker 1: take down their enemies. Yeah. I remember I read an 2202 02:15:51,640 --> 02:15:55,480 Speaker 1: article like, okay, I've literally lost all at the time, 2203 02:15:55,920 --> 02:15:58,200 Speaker 1: I think it was like mid last year about a 2204 02:15:58,280 --> 02:16:02,760 Speaker 1: cartelogist basically running a military operation just shutting like shutting 2205 02:16:02,840 --> 02:16:09,280 Speaker 1: down the city. Um. Yeah, that was pre pandemic. That 2206 02:16:09,400 --> 02:16:12,320 Speaker 1: was when it was a pre pandemic. Oh my god, yeah, 2207 02:16:12,360 --> 02:16:14,680 Speaker 1: I remember, because that was on the day and the 2208 02:16:14,840 --> 02:16:16,800 Speaker 1: day after it happened. I think I spent way too 2209 02:16:16,880 --> 02:16:19,640 Speaker 1: much time on Twitter talking to people. Um. That was 2210 02:16:19,720 --> 02:16:24,480 Speaker 1: when I think you're referring to when the UH detachment 2211 02:16:24,520 --> 02:16:28,520 Speaker 1: from the Mexican military um in the city of Koya Khan, 2212 02:16:28,600 --> 02:16:31,280 Speaker 1: which is the capital of Sinaloa. Kulakhan is seen as 2213 02:16:31,320 --> 02:16:34,440 Speaker 1: like sina is the cradle of the Mexican drug trade, 2214 02:16:34,480 --> 02:16:37,520 Speaker 1: then like Kodiakan is the capital of it, right, Um, 2215 02:16:37,680 --> 02:16:39,840 Speaker 1: I think I think you're referring to when the Mexican 2216 02:16:39,879 --> 02:16:43,600 Speaker 1: military detachment tried to arrest one of the chapel, right, 2217 02:16:43,640 --> 02:16:46,360 Speaker 1: and they actually found him, they localized it, they located him, 2218 02:16:46,360 --> 02:16:48,960 Speaker 1: and they tried to arrest him, and like the hills 2219 02:16:49,040 --> 02:16:51,800 Speaker 1: just came down on the city of Koyakan, and you 2220 02:16:51,879 --> 02:16:56,160 Speaker 1: had hundreds of of nauticles or paramilitaries who came down 2221 02:16:56,360 --> 02:17:00,400 Speaker 1: and essentially forced, um forced the military area in the 2222 02:17:00,480 --> 02:17:02,840 Speaker 1: state to hand over at the chapel's son to them 2223 02:17:03,720 --> 02:17:06,920 Speaker 1: and and for and the reason why I was like, uh, 2224 02:17:07,360 --> 02:17:09,040 Speaker 1: you know, spent way too much time on social media 2225 02:17:09,080 --> 02:17:10,800 Speaker 1: going after people because people said, oh, this is an 2226 02:17:10,800 --> 02:17:13,160 Speaker 1: example of a failed state. Oh, look at the new 2227 02:17:13,200 --> 02:17:17,400 Speaker 1: president of Mexico and he's lost control of the of 2228 02:17:17,480 --> 02:17:21,200 Speaker 1: the state, like he's taw tawing too nauticles And it 2229 02:17:21,320 --> 02:17:23,520 Speaker 1: was much more complicated than that, And something similar had 2230 02:17:23,560 --> 02:17:27,520 Speaker 1: already happened um in the previous administration where these different 2231 02:17:27,640 --> 02:17:30,280 Speaker 1: like particularly in the city of of Gadajada, where they 2232 02:17:30,360 --> 02:17:33,080 Speaker 1: even shot down a military helicopter or police helicopter and 2233 02:17:33,160 --> 02:17:36,920 Speaker 1: they and they essentially um shut down the entire city 2234 02:17:37,040 --> 02:17:40,560 Speaker 1: because one of their leaders have been captured. Okay, so 2235 02:17:40,680 --> 02:17:42,880 Speaker 1: what are what are the things the things you talked 2236 02:17:42,879 --> 02:17:45,040 Speaker 1: about the end of the article was about these this 2237 02:17:45,120 --> 02:17:50,640 Speaker 1: environmentalist group that gets like they all get arrested while 2238 02:17:50,720 --> 02:17:52,959 Speaker 1: like their their lawyer gets killed. After we starts talking 2239 02:17:52,959 --> 02:17:56,600 Speaker 1: about like connections between business owners and the party and 2240 02:17:56,640 --> 02:18:00,720 Speaker 1: the archo trades, I guess what do you how do 2241 02:18:00,840 --> 02:18:03,840 Speaker 1: you sort of like like how how do you left 2242 02:18:04,720 --> 02:18:07,360 Speaker 1: movements sort of navigate this space because you have it 2243 02:18:07,400 --> 02:18:10,480 Speaker 1: seems like you have on the one hand, you know, 2244 02:18:10,560 --> 02:18:13,280 Speaker 1: you have all these paramilitaries and then you also have 2245 02:18:13,400 --> 02:18:18,120 Speaker 1: a state that is like incredibly violently hostile to you 2246 02:18:18,520 --> 02:18:22,760 Speaker 1: and I guess I don't know, Like I guess you 2247 02:18:22,840 --> 02:18:26,480 Speaker 1: sort of have the Zapatista model of this combination of 2248 02:18:26,560 --> 02:18:29,480 Speaker 1: sort of like arm struggle and social pressure. But I guess, like, 2249 02:18:29,640 --> 02:18:33,200 Speaker 1: how how how do people navigate this sort of like 2250 02:18:33,560 --> 02:18:36,840 Speaker 1: it seems like like a really disastrous like a place 2251 02:18:36,920 --> 02:18:40,600 Speaker 1: to be trying to do leftist politics, And yeah, it's 2252 02:18:40,680 --> 02:18:43,480 Speaker 1: it's really difficult, right, And I think that's again going 2253 02:18:43,520 --> 02:18:45,720 Speaker 1: back to the thesis that the war on drugs is 2254 02:18:45,720 --> 02:18:50,320 Speaker 1: actually war on poor people. It's, um, you know, leftist movements, 2255 02:18:50,360 --> 02:18:53,240 Speaker 1: dissident movements in Mexico have to well, for while I'll 2256 02:18:53,240 --> 02:18:56,000 Speaker 1: say this in a place, it's these movements that have 2257 02:18:56,760 --> 02:19:02,720 Speaker 1: provided I think the the most accurate like X ray 2258 02:19:02,760 --> 02:19:06,200 Speaker 1: analysis of what the state is at the local level. Right. So, um, 2259 02:19:06,680 --> 02:19:09,160 Speaker 1: this this guerrilla leader that I talked about in the article, 2260 02:19:09,240 --> 02:19:12,800 Speaker 1: Commandant Ramido, who who was around in the late two thousand, seven, 2261 02:19:12,920 --> 02:19:15,560 Speaker 1: dozen eight, does nine like based on his travels in 2262 02:19:15,600 --> 02:19:17,720 Speaker 1: the mountains of Guerrero and kind of like the actions 2263 02:19:17,760 --> 02:19:19,400 Speaker 1: that he was engaged in. For him, it was very 2264 02:19:19,440 --> 02:19:22,320 Speaker 1: clear that the military was collaborating with all a narco 2265 02:19:22,400 --> 02:19:25,200 Speaker 1: trafficking organizations, not just the one, not just like the 2266 02:19:25,280 --> 02:19:27,920 Speaker 1: most powerful one, right. So at the national level, there 2267 02:19:27,959 --> 02:19:29,800 Speaker 1: was a lot of discourse of well, this start drug 2268 02:19:29,840 --> 02:19:32,640 Speaker 1: trafficking organization is going at it with this one in 2269 02:19:32,680 --> 02:19:35,000 Speaker 1: a place that Garrido, this guerrilla leader, looks at the situation. 2270 02:19:35,040 --> 02:19:37,640 Speaker 1: He's like, actually, they're all working together. And not only that, 2271 02:19:37,760 --> 02:19:39,440 Speaker 1: but they have the police in the military, and what 2272 02:19:39,520 --> 02:19:43,800 Speaker 1: are they doing. They are um going after poor communities 2273 02:19:43,879 --> 02:19:46,080 Speaker 1: up in the mountains who don't want to grow opium 2274 02:19:46,120 --> 02:19:50,000 Speaker 1: poppies or who want to organize a different way, an 2275 02:19:50,000 --> 02:19:53,680 Speaker 1: alternative model of of of living, of social reproduction. Um. 2276 02:19:53,840 --> 02:19:56,960 Speaker 1: What they'll say is, you know, uh, the what the 2277 02:19:57,000 --> 02:19:59,240 Speaker 1: military is doing in terms of drug interdiction is the 2278 02:19:59,440 --> 02:20:04,480 Speaker 1: only and and and burn some opium poppy fields and 2279 02:20:04,640 --> 02:20:06,720 Speaker 1: not others. And that's because the owner of that walled 2280 02:20:06,720 --> 02:20:09,640 Speaker 1: popium poppy feel that they burn didn't pay up um. 2281 02:20:10,400 --> 02:20:13,000 Speaker 1: So you know, now, current movements in Gueretro particing the 2282 02:20:13,040 --> 02:20:15,840 Speaker 1: indigenous moves and there's a recent report that that an 2283 02:20:15,840 --> 02:20:18,280 Speaker 1: indigenous group just put out and they're linked to the 2284 02:20:18,959 --> 02:20:23,800 Speaker 1: Congress Congress the c and I can remember the acronym 2285 02:20:24,680 --> 02:20:29,320 Speaker 1: um where they talk about a criminal state existing in 2286 02:20:29,640 --> 02:20:33,119 Speaker 1: in the in the part of Guerrero as Montana, which 2287 02:20:33,160 --> 02:20:35,720 Speaker 1: is a heavily indigenous area on the border on the 2288 02:20:35,760 --> 02:20:37,960 Speaker 1: eastern part of the state. And what they say is 2289 02:20:38,040 --> 02:20:42,960 Speaker 1: what we see here is uh an alliance between nauticles UM, 2290 02:20:43,080 --> 02:20:49,200 Speaker 1: political parties, military detachments and transnational corporations UM and so 2291 02:20:49,400 --> 02:20:52,240 Speaker 1: and and in Gerello, those transnational corporations are usually have 2292 02:20:52,360 --> 02:20:56,200 Speaker 1: something to do with mining and they're usually Canadian UM. 2293 02:20:56,560 --> 02:21:00,440 Speaker 1: So how do you navigate that? Like that is like 2294 02:21:00,640 --> 02:21:02,880 Speaker 1: like the correlation of forces, if we want to use 2295 02:21:02,920 --> 02:21:05,120 Speaker 1: that kind of terminology, like from a perspective of a 2296 02:21:05,280 --> 02:21:08,600 Speaker 1: of a group that that wants to resist this, it's 2297 02:21:08,680 --> 02:21:12,000 Speaker 1: it's it's damn near impossible, right, Like you have everything 2298 02:21:12,080 --> 02:21:15,640 Speaker 1: going against you, and yet people are still resisting. Right. 2299 02:21:15,680 --> 02:21:18,720 Speaker 1: You have the students of ayot Napa, They're still protesting, 2300 02:21:18,760 --> 02:21:22,280 Speaker 1: they're still organizing, even after the disappearance of their forty 2301 02:21:22,320 --> 02:21:25,280 Speaker 1: three comrades back in September, and we still don't have 2302 02:21:25,360 --> 02:21:27,680 Speaker 1: a clear answer as to what happened. Um, you still 2303 02:21:27,760 --> 02:21:30,920 Speaker 1: have you know, you have the model of of a 2304 02:21:31,040 --> 02:21:33,960 Speaker 1: timy that like that that certain indigenous communities, like the 2305 02:21:34,160 --> 02:21:36,880 Speaker 1: community in Chadan and ch have have practice which is 2306 02:21:37,400 --> 02:21:39,840 Speaker 1: essentially they kick out all political parties, they kick out 2307 02:21:39,879 --> 02:21:43,640 Speaker 1: all police officers, and they self organized at the communal level, 2308 02:21:44,360 --> 02:21:46,440 Speaker 1: almost like a community police force. And you see that 2309 02:21:46,520 --> 02:21:49,480 Speaker 1: in Guerrero as well. There's all you know, there's there's 2310 02:21:49,560 --> 02:21:51,840 Speaker 1: challenges with that. There's a that usually brings on a 2311 02:21:51,920 --> 02:21:54,280 Speaker 1: lot of violence. And the people of Chadan have really 2312 02:21:54,320 --> 02:21:57,800 Speaker 1: suffered for for trying to go this, for trying to 2313 02:21:57,920 --> 02:22:01,080 Speaker 1: protect themselves, right, they've they've suffered a lot of casualties. Um. 2314 02:22:01,240 --> 02:22:04,160 Speaker 1: And there you have a uh, this combination of like 2315 02:22:04,280 --> 02:22:08,680 Speaker 1: nauticals and illegal logging, right and and so the community 2316 02:22:08,720 --> 02:22:10,760 Speaker 1: there on the one hand is trying to protect their ecology, 2317 02:22:11,080 --> 02:22:13,480 Speaker 1: but they're also trying to defend themselves from nauticles who 2318 02:22:13,480 --> 02:22:15,800 Speaker 1: have taken over local political parties and they don't want 2319 02:22:15,879 --> 02:22:18,280 Speaker 1: them in their in their town. In Guereto, you have 2320 02:22:18,440 --> 02:22:21,560 Speaker 1: community police forces and you've had them since the nineteen 2321 02:22:21,560 --> 02:22:27,160 Speaker 1: eighties and nineteen nineties, um. But that's raised a lot 2322 02:22:27,240 --> 02:22:29,800 Speaker 1: of issues in terms of you know, what happens when 2323 02:22:29,879 --> 02:22:33,760 Speaker 1: one community police force gets cooputi or or co oputive 2324 02:22:33,800 --> 02:22:36,120 Speaker 1: or corrupted by a political party or by even a 2325 02:22:36,200 --> 02:22:39,360 Speaker 1: nautical and then that that group is used to hit 2326 02:22:39,480 --> 02:22:42,360 Speaker 1: against other community groups who are who are still trying 2327 02:22:42,400 --> 02:22:46,000 Speaker 1: to organize for for for a radical alternative. So it's 2328 02:22:46,080 --> 02:22:49,240 Speaker 1: it's it's on one level, it's really depressing, right, because 2329 02:22:49,440 --> 02:22:53,200 Speaker 1: everything is stacked against groups and communities and organizations in 2330 02:22:53,240 --> 02:22:55,080 Speaker 1: a place like Gueretta who want a better world, who 2331 02:22:55,120 --> 02:22:57,800 Speaker 1: want to create a better world. But in the longer 2332 02:22:57,840 --> 02:23:02,240 Speaker 1: scope of Guerretto's history, they still resist. They still resist. 2333 02:23:02,360 --> 02:23:04,400 Speaker 1: And to me, that's one of the things that fascinates 2334 02:23:04,440 --> 02:23:07,360 Speaker 1: me about this place and about its people, about its communities, 2335 02:23:07,879 --> 02:23:10,040 Speaker 1: that the odds have always been stacked against them, and 2336 02:23:10,120 --> 02:23:15,560 Speaker 1: nonetheless they still resist, they still try to um against 2337 02:23:15,600 --> 02:23:18,840 Speaker 1: overwhelming odds. They still try to carve out a better, 2338 02:23:19,959 --> 02:23:23,439 Speaker 1: more just more dignified existence for them and for their communities, 2339 02:23:23,600 --> 02:23:27,080 Speaker 1: even at great risk, you know, for their well being, 2340 02:23:27,560 --> 02:23:31,280 Speaker 1: and they're willing to risk everything. So they're still there. 2341 02:23:31,959 --> 02:23:34,800 Speaker 1: They're still there, even though the forces that they're facing 2342 02:23:34,840 --> 02:23:42,840 Speaker 1: are are extremely powerful. Yeah. I think that's a surprisingly 2343 02:23:42,920 --> 02:23:46,160 Speaker 1: hopeful note to end on, which is that, Yeah, it's 2344 02:23:46,280 --> 02:23:50,040 Speaker 1: even like, you know, places with just incredible concentrations of 2345 02:23:50,120 --> 02:23:53,199 Speaker 1: violence and different kinds of power against you, that people, 2346 02:23:54,720 --> 02:23:59,040 Speaker 1: people are people continue to fight. Yeah, Yeah, I think 2347 02:23:59,120 --> 02:24:00,920 Speaker 1: that's I think that is one of the lessons that 2348 02:24:01,000 --> 02:24:04,720 Speaker 1: we definitely get from a place like um or a 2349 02:24:04,760 --> 02:24:07,160 Speaker 1: place like Chiapa's right with the with the Sabasas who 2350 02:24:07,200 --> 02:24:09,840 Speaker 1: are still there, who have still managed to read I mean, 2351 02:24:09,879 --> 02:24:12,960 Speaker 1: they've managed to reproduce themselves generationally, which is really difficult 2352 02:24:13,000 --> 02:24:18,440 Speaker 1: for an armed um Uh insurrectionary group. Right, Like, they've 2353 02:24:18,480 --> 02:24:21,600 Speaker 1: managed to do that, and and and and to carve 2354 02:24:21,680 --> 02:24:24,360 Speaker 1: out at great costs as well. Right they're currently right 2355 02:24:24,400 --> 02:24:27,320 Speaker 1: now suffering. They've been suffering for for more than a 2356 02:24:27,400 --> 02:24:29,600 Speaker 1: decade of low intensity warfare that's been waged by the 2357 02:24:29,680 --> 02:24:34,000 Speaker 1: military and their paramilitaries. But they're still there with their example, right, 2358 02:24:34,080 --> 02:24:36,600 Speaker 1: And I think part of the power of them and 2359 02:24:36,720 --> 02:24:40,080 Speaker 1: the people in gro is their example alone is threatening 2360 02:24:40,680 --> 02:24:42,800 Speaker 1: to power to the powers that be, and and that's 2361 02:24:42,840 --> 02:24:45,760 Speaker 1: why that there's always an effort to exterminate them. So 2362 02:24:45,959 --> 02:24:49,760 Speaker 1: just by virtue of surviving and and and defending themselves, Um, 2363 02:24:50,040 --> 02:24:52,280 Speaker 1: that's like a small it seems like a small thing, 2364 02:24:52,440 --> 02:24:54,959 Speaker 1: but but they're providing an alternative. And I think that's 2365 02:24:55,000 --> 02:24:58,600 Speaker 1: where there their example is really important. And I think 2366 02:24:58,640 --> 02:25:00,560 Speaker 1: I think there is I think there's a real argument 2367 02:25:00,720 --> 02:25:04,320 Speaker 1: that the whole sort of the whole sort of anti globalization, 2368 02:25:04,600 --> 02:25:06,920 Speaker 1: like that wave of struggle like is something that was 2369 02:25:07,000 --> 02:25:08,800 Speaker 1: kicked off by the Deputistas and like and not just 2370 02:25:08,879 --> 02:25:10,800 Speaker 1: on the sort of like they were the first people 2371 02:25:10,840 --> 02:25:12,720 Speaker 1: to go into revolt, but it's like I mean explicitly 2372 02:25:13,000 --> 02:25:17,000 Speaker 1: like the way they brought you know, like social movements 2373 02:25:17,040 --> 02:25:19,000 Speaker 1: from across the world together and the way they you know, 2374 02:25:19,120 --> 02:25:21,680 Speaker 1: the way that they like had they got, the way 2375 02:25:21,680 --> 02:25:23,240 Speaker 1: they got people talking, the way they have people training 2376 02:25:23,280 --> 02:25:25,000 Speaker 1: each other, the techniques and the sort of ideas that 2377 02:25:25,000 --> 02:25:28,200 Speaker 1: they're exchanging that they like. Like they they set off 2378 02:25:28,600 --> 02:25:32,640 Speaker 1: like a wave of revolt that lasted for like I 2379 02:25:32,720 --> 02:25:35,560 Speaker 1: don't know if you started in like like the end 2380 02:25:35,600 --> 02:25:41,240 Speaker 1: of it's like six yes, yeah it was. It was incredible. Yeah, 2381 02:25:41,360 --> 02:25:43,920 Speaker 1: no they I think they there and even if you 2382 02:25:43,959 --> 02:25:46,320 Speaker 1: want to go this might take us off topic a 2383 02:25:46,360 --> 02:25:49,280 Speaker 1: little bit, right, but like scholars who focus on like 2384 02:25:49,360 --> 02:25:51,640 Speaker 1: Venezuela would say, actually, the first one was the Cata 2385 02:25:51,680 --> 02:25:53,640 Speaker 1: Castle right in the late eighties, when you have a 2386 02:25:53,720 --> 02:25:57,680 Speaker 1: popular rebellion in Catas, Venezuela against neoliberalism, against the liberal 2387 02:25:57,720 --> 02:26:01,039 Speaker 1: starity measures, right, and then so I've had that, I've 2388 02:26:01,120 --> 02:26:04,080 Speaker 1: had a you know talk to friends, I'll be like, yeah, 2389 02:26:04,840 --> 02:26:06,640 Speaker 1: were the first ones. They're like no, no, no, no no. 2390 02:26:07,040 --> 02:26:09,920 Speaker 1: It started in Karakas eight nine I think is the 2391 02:26:09,959 --> 02:26:12,800 Speaker 1: ka Castle. But yeah, no, I think they're their global example. 2392 02:26:12,840 --> 02:26:15,480 Speaker 1: It continues to be a really powerful one for me personally. 2393 02:26:15,560 --> 02:26:18,440 Speaker 1: It's like I still remember my parents had My parents 2394 02:26:18,520 --> 02:26:21,040 Speaker 1: are are migrants from Mexico. They had this this big 2395 02:26:21,200 --> 02:26:24,640 Speaker 1: satellite dish in our backyard so we can beam in, uh, 2396 02:26:25,040 --> 02:26:27,880 Speaker 1: you know, TV stations from Mexico. And I remember January one, 2397 02:26:28,760 --> 02:26:32,560 Speaker 1: we woke up right grogg y, uh celebrate New Year's 2398 02:26:32,640 --> 02:26:34,760 Speaker 1: and my parents turned on the TV to see Mexico 2399 02:26:34,800 --> 02:26:38,160 Speaker 1: City news, and there was moracles right, and there were 2400 02:26:38,240 --> 02:26:42,760 Speaker 1: the Sapatista's um and there were then the Mexican politicians saying, no, 2401 02:26:42,879 --> 02:26:45,880 Speaker 1: don't believe what, don't believe your eyes? This isn't you 2402 02:26:46,000 --> 02:26:47,640 Speaker 1: had a guy, I remember you had a guy go 2403 02:26:47,800 --> 02:26:51,560 Speaker 1: on TV. I think saying something like this is not 2404 02:26:51,680 --> 02:26:54,120 Speaker 1: an indigenous movement, because if it was an indigenous movement, 2405 02:26:54,160 --> 02:26:57,720 Speaker 1: they would be using machete is not rifles. Something really condescending, 2406 02:26:58,000 --> 02:27:01,000 Speaker 1: like the level of racist condescension came out of Mexican 2407 02:27:01,080 --> 02:27:06,160 Speaker 1: politicians in in response to this movement. Yum was was 2408 02:27:06,200 --> 02:27:08,560 Speaker 1: super high, right, but I remember I wasn't doing your 2409 02:27:08,640 --> 02:27:10,080 Speaker 1: high and I remember seeing it and I'm just like, 2410 02:27:11,600 --> 02:27:13,480 Speaker 1: there has to be something wrong for these people to 2411 02:27:13,560 --> 02:27:15,520 Speaker 1: do this right. And that just led me to what 2412 02:27:15,680 --> 02:27:17,880 Speaker 1: to do more research and to do more reading, and 2413 02:27:18,200 --> 02:27:20,280 Speaker 1: that I think is really powerful. I think I still 2414 02:27:20,320 --> 02:27:22,680 Speaker 1: think it's really powerful. So the more we can get 2415 02:27:22,720 --> 02:27:26,000 Speaker 1: the word out about these movements and in other parts 2416 02:27:26,040 --> 02:27:28,440 Speaker 1: of Latin America, I think, I think it's still really important. 2417 02:27:28,520 --> 02:27:30,720 Speaker 1: And I think, especially today, we really we do need 2418 02:27:30,959 --> 02:27:37,800 Speaker 1: a bit more hope in these dark pandemic times. I 2419 02:27:37,879 --> 02:27:40,640 Speaker 1: was trying to figure out a speaking of hope segue 2420 02:27:40,720 --> 02:27:44,000 Speaker 1: and I couldn't. I couldn't quite get it. Do you 2421 02:27:44,080 --> 02:27:45,840 Speaker 1: do you have anything that you want to plug? Where 2422 02:27:45,879 --> 02:27:50,080 Speaker 1: can people find you? Yeah? Well, thank you so much 2423 02:27:50,120 --> 02:27:51,680 Speaker 1: for having me on this was This is a lot 2424 02:27:51,720 --> 02:27:55,320 Speaker 1: of fun. Um. You can find me on God like 2425 02:27:55,440 --> 02:27:57,120 Speaker 1: you can find me on Twitter. I think the pandemic 2426 02:27:57,320 --> 02:27:59,840 Speaker 1: my Twitter consumption has really gone up. It's been powerful. 2427 02:27:59,840 --> 02:28:04,760 Speaker 1: But you can find me at Alexander Underscore Avena. Yeah. Um, 2428 02:28:05,879 --> 02:28:07,960 Speaker 1: then I want to plug. No. I think if you 2429 02:28:08,040 --> 02:28:11,240 Speaker 1: go on my Twitter page you'll see you'll be able 2430 02:28:11,240 --> 02:28:12,800 Speaker 1: to get the link to the to the article that 2431 02:28:12,879 --> 02:28:17,160 Speaker 1: we've been talking today UM about about the drug from 2432 02:28:17,200 --> 02:28:20,800 Speaker 1: dirty war to drug war into UM. I recently published 2433 02:28:20,800 --> 02:28:24,360 Speaker 1: a book review of this really fascinating book on the 2434 02:28:24,560 --> 02:28:27,480 Speaker 1: connection between the Israeli arms industry and like Cold War 2435 02:28:27,600 --> 02:28:29,440 Speaker 1: Latin America, so you can find that on my page. 2436 02:28:30,360 --> 02:28:33,000 Speaker 1: But yeah, it's I don't really have anything else to plug. 2437 02:28:34,760 --> 02:28:37,440 Speaker 1: Whenever I finish this damn book on the drug wars, 2438 02:28:38,200 --> 02:28:41,160 Speaker 1: have me back on And yeah, definitely thin tangible to 2439 02:28:41,520 --> 02:28:45,360 Speaker 1: the plug right now. It's just short little articles. Oh, 2440 02:28:45,480 --> 02:28:48,440 Speaker 1: thank thank you again for coming on the show. Um. Yeah, 2441 02:28:48,520 --> 02:28:50,120 Speaker 1: this this is this has when they could happen here. 2442 02:28:50,280 --> 02:28:53,200 Speaker 1: You can find us in the usual places. If do 2443 02:28:53,280 --> 02:28:55,200 Speaker 1: you want to venture on social media for some reason, 2444 02:28:55,280 --> 02:29:00,680 Speaker 1: please don't. It's it's a bad place. But yeah, thank 2445 02:29:00,720 --> 02:29:16,040 Speaker 1: you and goodbye everyone. Hey, we'll be back Monday with 2446 02:29:16,280 --> 02:29:19,119 Speaker 1: more episodes every week from now until the heat death 2447 02:29:19,160 --> 02:29:21,880 Speaker 1: of the universe. It could happen here is a production 2448 02:29:21,920 --> 02:29:24,959 Speaker 1: of cool Zone Media. Or more podcasts from cool Zone Media, 2449 02:29:25,040 --> 02:29:27,520 Speaker 1: visit our website cool zone media dot com, or check 2450 02:29:27,600 --> 02:29:29,840 Speaker 1: us out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 2451 02:29:29,959 --> 02:29:32,960 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to podcasts, you can find sources 2452 02:29:33,000 --> 02:29:35,560 Speaker 1: for It could happen here, updated monthly at cool zone 2453 02:29:35,560 --> 02:29:39,840 Speaker 1: media dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening. I'm Tanya Sam, 2454 02:29:40,000 --> 02:29:42,880 Speaker 1: host of the Money Moves podcast powered by Greenwood. This 2455 02:29:43,120 --> 02:29:45,440 Speaker 1: daily podcast will help give you the keys to the 2456 02:29:45,520 --> 02:29:49,360 Speaker 1: Kingdom of financial stability, wealth and abundance with celebrity guests 2457 02:29:49,400 --> 02:29:53,360 Speaker 1: like Rick Ross, Amanda Sells, Angela Ye, Roland, Martin, JB. Smooth, 2458 02:29:53,400 --> 02:29:55,560 Speaker 1: and Terrell Owens. Tune in to learn how to turn 2459 02:29:55,680 --> 02:30:02,000 Speaker 1: liabilities into assets and make your money moves. Subscribe to 2460 02:30:02,040 --> 02:30:04,280 Speaker 1: The Money News podcast powered by Greenland on the I 2461 02:30:04,440 --> 02:30:07,320 Speaker 1: Heart Radio app or wherever you get your podcasts, and 2462 02:30:07,480 --> 02:30:10,800 Speaker 1: make sure you leave a review. Adoption of teens from 2463 02:30:10,840 --> 02:30:13,280 Speaker 1: foster care is a topic not enough people know about, 2464 02:30:13,320 --> 02:30:16,039 Speaker 1: and we're here to change that. I'm April Dinnuity, host 2465 02:30:16,120 --> 02:30:20,040 Speaker 1: of the new podcast Navigating Adoption, presented by adopt us Kids. 2466 02:30:20,240 --> 02:30:23,960 Speaker 1: Each episode brings you compelling, real life adoption stories told 2467 02:30:24,000 --> 02:30:26,480 Speaker 1: by the families that lived them, with commentary from experts. 2468 02:30:26,920 --> 02:30:30,600 Speaker 1: Visit adopt us Kids dot org slash podcast, or subscribe 2469 02:30:30,640 --> 02:30:33,960 Speaker 1: to Navigating Adoption presented by adopt us Kids, brought to 2470 02:30:34,040 --> 02:30:35,720 Speaker 1: you by the U. S Department of Health, the Human 2471 02:30:35,760 --> 02:30:38,840 Speaker 1: Services Administration for Children and Families, and the ACT Council. 2472 02:30:39,680 --> 02:30:42,920 Speaker 1: This is Roxanne Gay, the host of The Roxanne Gay Agenda, 2473 02:30:43,200 --> 02:30:46,680 Speaker 1: a bad feminist podcast of your dreams. Each week, I 2474 02:30:46,879 --> 02:30:51,120 Speaker 1: talked to an interesting person about feminism, race, writing in 2475 02:30:51,200 --> 02:30:55,360 Speaker 1: books and art, food, pop culture, and yes, politics, We 2476 02:30:55,680 --> 02:31:00,120 Speaker 1: can't escape politics. Listen to the Luminary original podcast, The 2477 02:31:00,240 --> 02:31:04,000 Speaker 1: Roxanne Gay Agenda every Tuesday on the iHeart Radio app, 2478 02:31:04,320 --> 02:31:07,760 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.