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Speaker 1: Yop it's dexter. So before we start the show, quick announcement,

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Speaker 1: Killswitch has been nominated for the Signal Awards under the

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Speaker 1: Technology category. If you want to support the show, please

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Speaker 1: go vote for us at vote dot Signal Award dot

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Speaker 1: com and voting closes tomorrow Thursday, October ninth.

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Speaker 2: All Right, on to the show. I was in the

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Speaker 2: hospital for around a month, had a lot of people

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Speaker 2: come and visit. It's two thousand and six. Pokemon was like,

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Speaker 2: arguably at the peak OF's popularity, and I heard my

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Speaker 2: friends playing Pokemon. I will listen to my friends play

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Speaker 2: and like asked him, Oh, what was that sound? What

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Speaker 2: does that sound?

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Speaker 1: Ross Minor works in the video game industry. He's also

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Speaker 1: totally blind, and he has been since two thousand and six.

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Speaker 2: I played video games before I was blinded, and then

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Speaker 2: after I was blinded, you know, I still wanted to

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Speaker 2: play video games.

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Speaker 1: Pokemon is a really important game for Ross. It's the

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Speaker 1: first game he was at least kind of able to

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Speaker 1: play blind, and it ended up having some pretty profound

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Speaker 1: impacts not just on his childhood but on his career.

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Speaker 2: Playing Pokemon helped me learn how to navigate the world.

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Speaker 2: Being blind and being blind helped me learn how to

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Speaker 2: navigate the world of Pokemon, because they both required keeping

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Speaker 2: track of your surroundings and like spatial orientation, Like that's

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Speaker 2: what being blind is all about.

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Speaker 3: I'm afraid.

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Speaker 1: Kaleidoscope and iHeart podcasts. This is kill Switch. I'm Dexter Thomas.

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Speaker 3: I'm all right, goodbye.

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Speaker 1: I first talked to Ross about five years ago. The

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Speaker 1: pandemic had just started and everyone was inside. And if

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Speaker 1: you remember, just around that time, Animal Crossing had also

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Speaker 1: come out and it was getting really popular. And I'm

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Speaker 1: looking on YouTube and I see this video of this

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Speaker 1: guy explaining how he plays the game blind.

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Speaker 2: What's up, everyone, it's your favorite blind guy. My name

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Speaker 2: is Ross mind there, and I'm gonna be showing you

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Speaker 2: guys how I play Animal Crossing New Horizons without any

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Speaker 2: site whatsoever.

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Speaker 1: We talked a little bit back then, but I always

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Speaker 1: wanted to know more about how he not only figured

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Speaker 1: out how to play a farming simulator without being able

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Speaker 1: to see the screen, but why he would make YouTube

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Speaker 1: videos about it when again, he can't see the screen.

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Speaker 1: So finally this year I ended up writing a feature

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Speaker 1: about him in Wire magazine, and I learned a lot.

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Speaker 1: Ross has been a gamer for his whole life, but

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Speaker 1: he wasn't born blind. Playing video games without sight was

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Speaker 1: something he had to figure out.

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Speaker 2: That's probably my cue to say how I was blinded.

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Speaker 2: A lot of people think that people with disabilities are

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Speaker 2: just like born that way, when like a lot of

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Speaker 2: people with disabilities become disabled in some way, and so

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Speaker 2: for me, it was actually a pretty tragic story. So

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Speaker 2: like trigger warning for gun violence and domestic violence and

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Speaker 2: all that.

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Speaker 1: Ross just said it, but for real, heads up, this

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Speaker 1: is a pretty difficult story to hear.

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Speaker 2: Two thousand and six. So when I was eight years old,

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Speaker 2: my mother was divorcing my father and and an act

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Speaker 2: of retaliation, he shot me in my sleep, shot and

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Speaker 2: killed my brother Ryan, and then committed suicide. A lot

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Speaker 2: of times, I just to keep it really sure, I

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Speaker 2: just say, you know, family annihilation pretty much, which is

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Speaker 2: sad that there's a term for that now, But that's

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Speaker 2: how I was blinded. So I pretty much went to

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Speaker 2: sleep with sight, you know, twenty twenty vision, and then

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Speaker 2: woke up in the hospital completely blind.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I can't imagine what it's like to explain that to

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Speaker 1: people constantly, because you have to do this a lot.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, like it is a fine line. I'm gonna

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Speaker 2: be real like when I was younger, you know, I

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Speaker 2: say like, oh, I'm so used to it, I don't

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Speaker 2: mind talking about it, and like I don't mind talking

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Speaker 2: about it, but you're right, like the repetition begins to

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Speaker 2: make it feel almost like it didn't even happen, if

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Speaker 2: that makes sense, Like it feels like just something I'm

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Speaker 2: like rehearsing, but really, I her said, just to like

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Speaker 2: emphasize that, yeah, it happened to me. But then kind

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Speaker 2: of just like, Okay, you have the background. Now let's

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Speaker 2: like talk about what we actually want to talk about.

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Speaker 1: When Ross woke up in the hospital, he was completely blind,

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Speaker 1: but he was still Ross, and he still wanted to

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Speaker 1: play video games, especially the game he'd been playing at

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Speaker 1: the time, Pokemon Ruby. He listened while his friends would

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Speaker 1: play in the hospital room, and he'd try to figure

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Speaker 1: out what the sounds he was hearing. Men.

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Speaker 2: With Pokemon, there are sounds for everything. There are sounds

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Speaker 2: for each different Pokemon, like the cry that they make

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Speaker 2: when you throw them out. There sounds for all the

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Speaker 2: different attacks. There's music for each different town. But most importantly,

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Speaker 2: there's a sound that plays when you bump into a wall,

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Speaker 2: and I another bunch of black people call it like

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Speaker 2: the bump sound, because if that sound didn't exist, we

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Speaker 2: quite literally wouldn't be able to play the game in

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Speaker 2: the way that we do or did back then, because

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Speaker 2: if we don't know that we're bumping into something, we're

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Speaker 2: not able to memorize the map. We're not able to

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Speaker 2: like figure out where things are, you know, walking around

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Speaker 2: bumping into things, memorizing where things are. That's kind of

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Speaker 2: how blind people navigate in the first place, Like in

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Speaker 2: real life. Just the inclusion of that one sound allowed

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Speaker 2: me to memorize pretty much all of the games. That's

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Speaker 2: how good the sound design was.

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Speaker 1: When you mentioned that, even without having to really think

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Speaker 1: about it, I can immediately register especially the bump sound.

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Speaker 1: I know exactly what you're talking about. And then the

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Speaker 1: fact that different Pokemon have different cries, different sounds, even

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Speaker 1: in the old school games, yeah, even the first Pokemon games. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Pikachu kind of sounds like Pikachu, and an electric Pokemon

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Speaker 1: sounds like an electric Pokemon. A big rock Pokemon sounds

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Speaker 1: big and low and heavy.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's that they're able to do all that

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Speaker 2: with like eight bit sounds. But kind of fun little

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Speaker 2: fact is that I think they ran out of memory

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Speaker 2: in their original games. And so out of the first

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Speaker 2: one hundred and fifty one Pokemon, there are some that

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Speaker 2: are like just straight up duplicates of each other. So

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Speaker 2: like Charizard and rye Horn have the same exact cry.

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Speaker 2: Really yeah, And so this is where it's like my

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Speaker 2: knowledge of Pokemon like goes deep, because you know, if

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Speaker 2: I'm like playing the game and I hear either the

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Speaker 2: Charizard or the rye Horn sound, I'm thinking, Okay, well,

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Speaker 2: most trainers in games out in the wild like don't

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Speaker 2: have charis ars, Like they just don't.

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Speaker 1: They're very rare to see.

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Speaker 2: So I'm like, okay, by process on elimination, this is

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Speaker 2: probably a rye horn.

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Speaker 1: Ross probably knows the sounds of Pokemon Ruby better than

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Speaker 1: most people because he had to, and if he was

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Speaker 1: going to play the game, he wanted to really play

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Speaker 1: it on his own. I started a new.

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Speaker 2: Save file, and you know, sometimes I think about that.

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Speaker 2: I'm like, that's like really symbolic in a way, like

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Speaker 2: why did I feel the need to start a new

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Speaker 2: save file? Like after I was blinded? It was almost

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Speaker 2: like starting a really new chapter of my life. I

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Speaker 2: guess my thought process was, maybe if I can play

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Speaker 2: the game, I want to know I can play all

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Speaker 2: of it, like from beginning to end, and if I can't,

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Speaker 2: well then it doesn't matter if I delete my safe

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Speaker 2: because I'm not gonna be able to play the game.

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Speaker 1: Having that bump sound, having the cries all be different,

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Speaker 1: and even having attacks that have different distinctive sounds for

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Speaker 1: people like me who can see the screen, that's just

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Speaker 1: good sound design, especially for early two thousands technology. It's

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Speaker 1: kind of cool that the cut sound kind of sounds

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Speaker 1: like a cut, but it's not crucial. But if you

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Speaker 1: can't see the screen will or you can't see it

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Speaker 1: at all, it is crucial because it's all the information

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Speaker 1: you have now. Pokemon probably wasn't made with blind accessibility

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Speaker 1: in mind, games like this we could maybe call accidentally accessible.

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Speaker 1: But eventually even the Pokemon series started getting harder for

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Speaker 1: Ross to play.

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Speaker 2: As of generation eight of Pokemon, so Pokemon Sword and

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Speaker 2: Shield anything after that is just strictly not accessible.

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Speaker 1: Really, it's got worse.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, like down the Drain, and the reason

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Speaker 2: is mainly because of camera perspective, you know, when you

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Speaker 2: think about it. When you walk around, you know, your

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Speaker 2: camera perspective is fixed, but like, imagine if you were

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Speaker 2: walking around in life, and like the way you imagined yourself,

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Speaker 2: the perspective constantly changed based on how you were walking,

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Speaker 2: it'd be really disorienting. And so once the camera starts

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Speaker 2: moving around, you have no orientation because when it's fixed,

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Speaker 2: you can like count steps. That's not something that a

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Speaker 2: lot of people necessarily do in real life, but like

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Speaker 2: in a video game, it works. You know, the Pokemon

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Speaker 2: center is twenty steps to the left once you enter

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Speaker 2: town or whatever, but that suddenly changes when you have

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Speaker 2: different angles that you can walk around the overworld end

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Speaker 2: and suddenly you're no longer walking in a grid. And

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Speaker 2: so because of that, I haven't been able to experience

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Speaker 2: the new games.

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Speaker 1: As Pokemon became more advanced but less successible, there weren't

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Speaker 1: a whole lot of options for new games that Ross

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Speaker 1: could play, so he'd spend a lot of time listening

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Speaker 1: to his friends play picture of this.

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Speaker 2: He's twenty eleven. Skyrim comes out. Everyone is talking about

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Speaker 2: this game, right, yeah, everyone and my friends are all

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Speaker 2: telling me about it, and so they get the game.

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Speaker 2: I come over on the weekend and like, I listen

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Speaker 2: to them play this open world fantasy RPG with music

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Speaker 2: that was recorded by like a live orchestra, and I

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Speaker 2: have all these incredible sounds, and like, I'm not able

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Speaker 2: to play it, and my dream is one day be

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Speaker 2: able to play Skyrim.

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Speaker 1: Skyrim is an open world game, which means that you

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Speaker 1: can explore the entire game world at your own pace.

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Speaker 1: It's not like those kinds of games where you beat

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Speaker 1: level one and okay, time to go to level two.

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Speaker 1: The entire map is open to you and you can

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Speaker 1: decide if you want to do a mission right now,

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Speaker 1: or you can just look around and explore, which sounds

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Speaker 1: like a great time for someone like me, but it

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Speaker 1: makes basically impossible to play if you're blind. And regardless

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Speaker 1: of whether they were open world or not, most of

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Speaker 1: the games coming out at this time were not accessible

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Speaker 1: to ross. That is until leftore Dead.

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Speaker 2: That game really showed me like what the potential was

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Speaker 2: for accessibility in games and like how easy it could

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Speaker 2: be because in Left for Dead one and two, all

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Speaker 2: of the zombies have different sounds tied to them, and

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Speaker 2: so through knowing what they sound like and then through

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Speaker 2: knowing their abilities, you know how to prepare for them,

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Speaker 2: and so you know, I still remember, like the hunter

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Speaker 2: when and it's getting closer to you, like a eerie

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Speaker 2: piano sound plays, but that's the only sound cue you get.

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Speaker 2: Or like if there's like a bloater, you know, I mean,

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Speaker 2: it pretty much sounds like someone's about to get sick.

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Speaker 2: That's what it sounds like, and you hear off of

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Speaker 2: the distance.

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Speaker 1: I was able to.

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Speaker 2: Like help my friends play the game because you know,

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Speaker 2: like during the chaos of the game, they couldn't always

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Speaker 2: like see their visual cues, and so I was able

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Speaker 2: to hear as we played.

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Speaker 1: Left for Dead is a first person shooter, the kind

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Speaker 1: of game where you see the point of view of

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Speaker 1: the main character. These are gonna be hard to play

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Speaker 1: if you're blind because you have to aim and shoot,

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Speaker 1: So most first person shooters are simply not possible for

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Speaker 1: Ross to play. But Left for Dead had some really

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Speaker 1: good sound design. Different zombies make different noises and also

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Speaker 1: kind of like Pokemon, different attacks make very different sounds,

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Speaker 1: and Ross was able to use this as cues and

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Speaker 1: fight back.

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Speaker 2: When you swung your melee weapon, certain ones, you could

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Speaker 2: really tell when you connected with a zombie versus like

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Speaker 2: hitting a wall. My favorite was frying pan because like

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Speaker 2: it made like a really loud metal on body impact

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Speaker 2: like frying pan sound, you know, like almost like cartoons

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Speaker 2: were loud. But it made it really easy for me

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Speaker 2: to tell when I.

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Speaker 1: Was I was hitting something, and those small cues added up.

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Speaker 1: There's one particular level that stood out, carnival.

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Speaker 2: I think it was called where you like you make

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Speaker 2: your way through this carnival or whatever, and then you

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Speaker 2: get to this like staging area and you have to

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Speaker 2: turn all the lights and all the music like a

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Speaker 2: bunch of zombies flooding. They're rock music blasting and like

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Speaker 2: just tons of zombies just screaming. So I'm there like

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Speaker 2: music is playing, I'm swim an electric guitar and like

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Speaker 2: killing zombies and like you know, I can feel the

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Speaker 2: vibrations in the control where I can hear the sound

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Speaker 2: it makes, and so I'm just swinging my guitar, having fun,

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Speaker 2: feeling my guitar connect with zombies. And in my mind

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Speaker 2: I'm thinking, like you know, I'm I'm catching the stragglers,

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Speaker 2: you know, and my friends are taking care of the rest.

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Speaker 2: But turns out they're like holy shit. Ross you just

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Speaker 2: killed like two or three tanks, which are like the

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Speaker 2: biggest the biggest zombies in the game. Yeah, that's the

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Speaker 2: core memory right there, Like just thinking about that. This

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Speaker 2: is where it's like video games and their importance, like

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Speaker 2: bridge beyond entertainment. It's about socialization, it's about escapism, it's

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Speaker 2: about i mean, even in this case, like validation, because

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Speaker 2: it's like after I was blinded, I was quickly aware

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Speaker 2: of just like how differently people treated me and back

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Speaker 2: then and even now as a grown ass man, it's

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Speaker 2: like people don't think think you can, or don't want

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Speaker 2: you to or don't let you help whatever the reason is.

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Speaker 2: You experienced that entire life and it just kind of

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Speaker 2: wears on you. And so then like to play a

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Speaker 2: game where you're still playing with friends but you're able

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Speaker 2: to just partake and like being helpful when society makes

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Speaker 2: you or wants you to think that you aren't to

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Speaker 2: be a part of the team, and like work cohesively

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Speaker 2: is something cool to be able to do. It's just

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Speaker 2: a good feeling.

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Speaker 1: I mean, honestly, that's the best feeling in a game period,

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Speaker 1: any kind of online multiplayer just team game is knowing

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Speaker 1: that oh yeah, we would have died if it wasn't

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Speaker 1: for me. Yeah, yeah, right, absolutely, Okay, this is cool.

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Speaker 1: But again, these games that Ross could kind of sort

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Speaker 1: of play, like Left for Dead or Pokemon, they were

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Speaker 1: only accidentally accessible. So what happens when someone wants to

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Speaker 1: do all this on purpose? That's where people like Ross

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Speaker 1: come in. That's after the break. So much of how

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Speaker 1: you're able to play games has been people who are

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Speaker 1: not the developers figuring out ways. But it's not the

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Speaker 1: company themselves.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean there's a lot of reasons why. It's

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Speaker 2: mainly due to budget and lack of awareness. So like

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Speaker 2: half the battle is making people aware, but then the

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Speaker 2: bigger battle is budget. Gaming industry is volatile as is

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Speaker 2: I mean, as of recording this, you know, what was

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Speaker 2: it a month or two ago, Like Microsoft laid off

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Speaker 2: nine thousand employees, and that also includes games that were

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Speaker 2: likely going to have some type of accessibility feature in

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Speaker 2: some way, and so like a lot of times accessibility

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Speaker 2: is like the first like when there are budget cuts

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Speaker 2: to be made, like accessibility is the first one to

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Speaker 2: get acted, and so it's like it's hard for you

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Speaker 2: to prioritize it, so it's.

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Speaker 1: Down to the people who need these features to advocate

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Speaker 1: for them. At first, Ross would just write emails to

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Speaker 1: game studios saying, like, all my friends are playing this game,

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Speaker 1: I really want to be able to play too, could

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Speaker 1: you please add features so that blind people like me

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Speaker 1: could play it? He usually wouldn't get a response. So

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Speaker 1: Ross started planning on how he could get himself into

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Speaker 1: the game industry and started out by trying to consult

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Speaker 1: on games so that more accessibility features would be incorporated.

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Speaker 2: Madden twenty eighteen was the first thing I did that

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Speaker 2: was like my first taste into like game accessibility and

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00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:36,840
Speaker 2: for context, my payment for that was assigned copy of

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Speaker 2: Madden twenty eighteen that was pretty much like not accessible

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Speaker 2: except for like the one feature I worked on. I

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Speaker 2: worked on as justin Falls. I think that was the

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Speaker 2: first game I was credited, and then I'm in the

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Speaker 2: credits for Sea of Thieves.

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Speaker 1: Sea if Thieves is an online open world game that

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Speaker 1: first came out in twenty eighteen. It wasn't built to

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Speaker 1: be blind accessible at first. I mean, remember what I

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Speaker 1: said about open world games usually being most impossible for

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Speaker 1: blind people to play, but partially because you could also

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Speaker 1: play with sighted people on your team, and partially because

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Speaker 1: of some other features, this game was also kind of

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Speaker 1: accidentally accessible.

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Speaker 2: The most successful thing to do on the ship was

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Speaker 2: like to steer the ship. I know this sounds kind

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Speaker 2: of ironic, a blind person's steering a pirate ship, but

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Speaker 2: think about it, Like you're in the open ocean. There's

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Speaker 2: really not much to hit, relatively speaking. But then the

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Speaker 2: wheel when you rotate it, there are like notches in it,

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Speaker 2: and you can feel those vibrations in the controller, so

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Speaker 2: like you're able to kind of tell where the wheel's

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Speaker 2: positioned and therefore like how hard you're turning and things

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Speaker 2: like that, So it was really easy for people to

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Speaker 2: like call out directions on where to turn.

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Speaker 1: This is maybe the most impressive thing to me about

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Speaker 1: how Ross does his work. It's not just that he

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Speaker 1: has the lived experience of being blind. It's that he

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Speaker 1: prepares a lot. He's taught himself how to program, He's

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Speaker 1: read every game design book he can get his hands on.

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Speaker 1: He studies the industry, he lives and breathes this stuff,

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Speaker 1: and so he's able to come in and identify when

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Speaker 1: a small change would make a huge difference for a

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Speaker 1: blind gamer. One tiny feature that could turn a game

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Speaker 1: from being unplayable into being your new favorite franchise.

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Speaker 2: The future I helped work on was when a person

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Speaker 2: is sailing the ship, it turns up the sounds of

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Speaker 2: the waves that are specifically like hitting against the rocks

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Speaker 2: out at sea, to allow blind players to avoid the

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Speaker 2: rocks at sea, which gives a more agency and steering

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00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:35,880
Speaker 2: the ship, focusing on that one task that they're good

348
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Speaker 2: at doing already, and just like improving it.

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Speaker 1: Video game accessibility has been improving here and there, but

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Speaker 1: a lot of it kind of felt like small steps,

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Speaker 1: at least until twenty twenty with the release of a

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Speaker 1: game called The Last of Us Part two.

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Speaker 2: I mean that was like kind of like the final kick,

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Speaker 2: Like okay, developers are actually taking triple A big budget

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Speaker 2: games and making them accept like they're taking that seriously.

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Speaker 1: The Last of Us is a game series that involves

357
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Speaker 1: exploring environments and shooting enemies, which normally places it pretty

358
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Speaker 1: squarely in the long list of games that you can't

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Speaker 1: play if you're blind, And sure enough, when the first

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Speaker 1: Last of Us came out in twenty thirteen, it wasn't

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Speaker 1: blind accessible. But for the Last of Us Part two,

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Speaker 1: the developers brought on one of the best known consultants

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Speaker 1: in blind gaming at the time, Brandon Cole.

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Speaker 2: One of my buddies, Brandon Cole, he was the totally

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Speaker 2: blind consultant who worked on The Lost of Us Too.

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Speaker 2: He passed away a year ago, a little over a

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Speaker 2: year ago, but he was a huge inspiration for me

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Speaker 2: and I I never thought that game accessibility would be

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Speaker 2: taken seriously in the industry, Like he was kind of

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Speaker 2: the one who was like always spearheading things.

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Speaker 1: And for real, you really can't talk about blind accessibility

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Speaker 1: and gaming without also at some point talking about Brandon Cole.

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Speaker 1: For example, you might remember that for the Racing Simulator

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Speaker 1: announced that they're knew this installment was going to be

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Speaker 1: playable by blind people. Actually, hold on a second. You

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Speaker 1: might not know this, but it is possible now for

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Speaker 1: blind people to play a cutting edge race car simulator,

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Speaker 1: and Brandon was involved with that. He was a veteran

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Speaker 1: in the scene who Ross really looked up to. So

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Speaker 1: when Ross plays games like The Last of Us two

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Speaker 1: in his streams, it's not just about the technical accomplishment,

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Speaker 1: it's about recognizing one of the people that made that

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Speaker 1: life changing event possible for him.

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Speaker 2: Lost of US is like it's one of those games

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Speaker 2: that it was just like a genre where I never

386
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Speaker 2: thought I'd be able to play again, any genre with

387
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Speaker 2: like free moving camera, any genre where I could like

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Speaker 2: shoot a gun anything like that. I just never thought

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00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:44,240
Speaker 2: I'd be able to do. It is really cool just

390
00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:47,080
Speaker 2: riding the horse around and like using the navigation assistance

391
00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:49,320
Speaker 2: and like experiencing that for the first time. And I

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Speaker 2: remember all I could say was like, guys, like, I'm

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Speaker 2: literally playing an accessible game on the PlayStation. Guys, I'm

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Speaker 2: playing a PS four game right now.

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Speaker 3: Do you guys understand this.

396
00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:05,840
Speaker 2: I'm playing a PS four game. It was really surreal

397
00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:10,600
Speaker 2: to be able to explore and do combat and read

398
00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:13,920
Speaker 2: all the menus and adjust the game to the settings

399
00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:17,919
Speaker 2: I want. Yeah, it's just it reminds me of like

400
00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:20,159
Speaker 2: what I wanted when I was eight years old. You know,

401
00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:22,520
Speaker 2: I don't even know the words for words for it, man,

402
00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:26,720
Speaker 2: Like this is just like a lifelong dream coming true.

403
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Speaker 2: Like that's the only way that I can describe it.

404
00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:31,159
Speaker 2: I'm sure many of you guys understand.

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Speaker 1: The Last of Us Part two is a game where

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Speaker 1: you need to shoot at enemies. So how do these

407
00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:41,200
Speaker 1: features work that allow blind people to play the game

408
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Speaker 1: and get into that after the break.

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Speaker 2: I always tell people that there are three things to

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Speaker 2: make a game blind accessible, sound cues, text of speech,

411
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Speaker 2: and navigation assistance. And the sound cues are meant to

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Speaker 2: tell players when specific things in the game happen. For

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Speaker 2: the Last of Us was break it down. First, we

414
00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:12,040
Speaker 2: have the navigation assistance. You know, how does a blind

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00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:14,320
Speaker 2: person navigate through a world like that? Well, if you

416
00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:16,800
Speaker 2: turn on navisist and it basically asks like a golden

417
00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:20,679
Speaker 2: path where if you press in the left thumbstick, it

418
00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:23,040
Speaker 2: will like play a sound and then point you in

419
00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:25,960
Speaker 2: the direction you need to go. We're gonna explore every

420
00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:34,800
Speaker 2: bit we can, and then you'll walk forward and then

421
00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:37,640
Speaker 2: eventually it'll play like a higher pitch sound to let

422
00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:40,040
Speaker 2: you know, hey, you need to press all three again

423
00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:42,399
Speaker 2: to like reorient yourself. You don't have to press it,

424
00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:45,320
Speaker 2: but it's there if you need to. And so basically

425
00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:49,720
Speaker 2: you're walking through like a string of nodes that will

426
00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:51,760
Speaker 2: bring you all the way through the game, that will

427
00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:54,679
Speaker 2: bring you to every single objective, every single encounter.

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Speaker 1: All that.

429
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Speaker 2: Then there's a screenered aspect. The Last of Us has

430
00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:03,680
Speaker 2: a fully fledged screen reads everything in the game touch

431
00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:08,560
Speaker 2: and then there's sound cues, and there are sound cues

432
00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:12,240
Speaker 2: for different types of enemies. If you hold down R

433
00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:15,560
Speaker 2: one and then you can press circle scan for items,

434
00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:18,159
Speaker 2: square to scan for enemies, and it sends out basically

435
00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:22,360
Speaker 2: like this sort of like sonar wave, like this sort

436
00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:26,040
Speaker 2: of like sound, and then it will play a sound

437
00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:29,960
Speaker 2: if there's an enemy or if there's an item, and

438
00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:32,359
Speaker 2: you can kind of gauge how far that item is

439
00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:34,439
Speaker 2: and like what direction it's in, and then you can

440
00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:37,240
Speaker 2: press a button and it'll help guide you to that item.

441
00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:39,280
Speaker 2: Check this out.

442
00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:46,440
Speaker 1: One half rag rag sweet.

443
00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:50,760
Speaker 2: And so like through all these things it's able to

444
00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:54,520
Speaker 2: kind of form this picture and allow us to navigate.

445
00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:58,200
Speaker 2: And then through combat, if you're aiming your gun, there's

446
00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:00,520
Speaker 2: a sound que that plays for if you're aiming at

447
00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:02,639
Speaker 2: their body, and then like a higher pitch down to

448
00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:03,880
Speaker 2: show that you're aiming at their head.

449
00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:08,000
Speaker 1: You can headshot without see it.

450
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:11,000
Speaker 2: Wow oh yeah yeah, like and like that's so satisfying,

451
00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:13,800
Speaker 2: And the thing is like there's amosis. Yeah, but you

452
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:16,040
Speaker 2: know that's the thing about accessibilities that you can customize

453
00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:18,320
Speaker 2: it to your liking, and so you know, I don't

454
00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:21,320
Speaker 2: like my game to play itself for me, right, So,

455
00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:23,800
Speaker 2: like I don't have the amasis like set the max

456
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:27,160
Speaker 2: or whatever, and even if I did, it still doesn't

457
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:29,399
Speaker 2: just do everything for you. You still have to try for

458
00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:32,320
Speaker 2: the headshot, and so like it's very satisfying like when

459
00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:34,160
Speaker 2: I'm able to pull it off, and it's very frustrating

460
00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:37,119
Speaker 2: when I miss and die, you know, Like that's that's cool.

461
00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:39,720
Speaker 2: Like I want that experience, the both good and the bad.

462
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:40,760
Speaker 1: That's the point of video game.

463
00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:43,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the point of video games. I have this

464
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:46,359
Speaker 2: clip where it was the first time I was playing

465
00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:48,120
Speaker 2: The Last of Us. It was like the tutorial section

466
00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:54,000
Speaker 2: and I was fighting five infected at once, and literally

467
00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:56,439
Speaker 2: I was like dodging and weaving throughout all of their

468
00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:59,320
Speaker 2: attacks because there is a sound cue when I need

469
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:01,880
Speaker 2: to dodge, and like I literally took on the five

470
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:07,159
Speaker 2: infected hand to hand combat. It was really cool to

471
00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:08,760
Speaker 2: be able to do because like, while I'm playing, I'm

472
00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:11,080
Speaker 2: not speaking out all. I'm just like completely locked in

473
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:14,040
Speaker 2: and focused. That's what it should look like when I'm

474
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:16,040
Speaker 2: playing and enjoying a game. And it was just like

475
00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:16,800
Speaker 2: really really cool.

476
00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:21,919
Speaker 1: The Last of Us Part two and the inclusion of

477
00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:25,159
Speaker 1: features for blind and low vision people is a success

478
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:28,840
Speaker 1: on two levels. First off, the features actually work, which

479
00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:30,640
Speaker 1: means that there's a group of people who will now

480
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:33,720
Speaker 1: buy the game. This is a small group, sure, but

481
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:36,680
Speaker 1: from what I've heard, when a disabled game where finds

482
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:38,920
Speaker 1: a video game that they can actually play, they will

483
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:43,200
Speaker 1: put money down Deluxe version, sign them up DLC. If

484
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:46,240
Speaker 1: it's playable, they're on it re release on a new system,

485
00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:50,240
Speaker 1: they'll probably buy that too. But also announcing that your

486
00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:52,960
Speaker 1: game is accessible is always good press for a game,

487
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:55,199
Speaker 1: and it might even nudge an able bodied player to

488
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:57,640
Speaker 1: buy the game just because they're curious and it seems interesting.

489
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:00,760
Speaker 1: But we got to go back to those fundamentals. Do

490
00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:06,080
Speaker 1: those accessibility features actually work? And sometimes the answer is

491
00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:08,560
Speaker 1: kind of so.

492
00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:12,120
Speaker 2: God of War Ragdrock, It's got a lot of accessibility

493
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:16,159
Speaker 2: features similar to lots of us, you know, screen reader, navasists,

494
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:19,399
Speaker 2: combat assistance, but all of it across the board is

495
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:22,399
Speaker 2: like very half baked, and like that's not to discredit

496
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 2: a hard work that people probably already did at the studio,

497
00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:29,200
Speaker 2: but it's just it's true. It's the perfect example of

498
00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:31,359
Speaker 2: what a half bag game looks like because like the

499
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:34,720
Speaker 2: navasist works great most of the time, except if you

500
00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:37,800
Speaker 2: come across a puzzle, then it suddenly you are completely

501
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:40,520
Speaker 2: like stonewalled from a game unless someone helps you. Or

502
00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:43,960
Speaker 2: combat assistance is great in that, like there's dodge cues,

503
00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:47,640
Speaker 2: there's block cues, and there's pery cues, but they don't

504
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:50,320
Speaker 2: play for every type of enemy, and they're not timed

505
00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:53,080
Speaker 2: the best. And then like there's a screen reader, but

506
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:55,120
Speaker 2: you can't read the skill menu and you can't read

507
00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:59,040
Speaker 2: the armory menu. You know, probably the most two important

508
00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:01,880
Speaker 2: menus in the entire game you can't read. And it's

509
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:04,080
Speaker 2: such a shame because I enjoy playing the game a lot,

510
00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:07,160
Speaker 2: Like the combat is so fun, but I still haven't

511
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:09,800
Speaker 2: been it because like it's very tedious to get through.

512
00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:13,359
Speaker 2: When the systems work, you could see it work, but

513
00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:16,159
Speaker 2: then you can see immediately like when there's friction, and

514
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:18,480
Speaker 2: like it just comes to a grinding halt.

515
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:22,720
Speaker 1: Unfortunately, this is a problem that a lot of games

516
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:25,960
Speaker 1: that have accessibility features end up running into and a

517
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:29,040
Speaker 1: lot of the time it's because that accessibility was added

518
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 1: late in the development of the game, too late for

519
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:34,919
Speaker 1: the features to be really integrated. Instead, these features are

520
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:38,360
Speaker 1: added in piecemeal or as a layer on top.

521
00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:43,360
Speaker 2: A common example that people use in the game accessibility

522
00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:46,680
Speaker 2: space is like baking a blueberry muffin and the blueberries

523
00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:50,120
Speaker 2: are the accessibility. So you don't bake the entire muffin

524
00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:53,280
Speaker 2: and then put the blueberries in after you bake the muffin,

525
00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:55,440
Speaker 2: because then you got to like rip out pieces, you

526
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:57,680
Speaker 2: got to put the blueberries in and cover them back up.

527
00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:01,040
Speaker 2: You know, it's like, it doesn't make sense. I suppose

528
00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:04,040
Speaker 2: it's just building it or baking it from the ground up.

529
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:07,200
Speaker 2: It's just a much more mature mindset that people are

530
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:09,720
Speaker 2: having with accessibility now, where they realize they need to

531
00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:12,520
Speaker 2: implement it at the same time as they're implementing everything

532
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:14,560
Speaker 2: else and not making an afterthought.

533
00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:18,360
Speaker 1: So there's something I noticed about how you and a

534
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:20,880
Speaker 1: lot of other blind people that I see when they

535
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:24,760
Speaker 1: talk about games. How you talk about games is when

536
00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:29,360
Speaker 1: there's a criticism of a game, it's usually very gentle. Yeah,

537
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:32,720
Speaker 1: which this is something that I'm not used to in

538
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:36,040
Speaker 1: gamer circles because you know how gamers get. It's like

539
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:39,720
Speaker 1: a pixel is ever so slightly at a place, or

540
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:42,200
Speaker 1: a game has a slightly longer load time than you

541
00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:45,120
Speaker 1: would want and it's just these devs are lazy. I

542
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:47,480
Speaker 1: hate all these people who made it. What are they doing?

543
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:52,080
Speaker 1: I want my money back. What I've seen from blind

544
00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:55,080
Speaker 1: gamers and other people who are in this space is

545
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:58,440
Speaker 1: when there's a criticism of a game, it's very light. Yeah,

546
00:29:58,560 --> 00:29:59,680
Speaker 1: and it's very charitable.

547
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:05,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's pretty much because there's something like any minority

548
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:08,120
Speaker 2: will get is not just a disabled thing. And it's

549
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:11,120
Speaker 2: like the concept of you have to show that you're

550
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:14,920
Speaker 2: grateful or else you're not going to get opportunities. You

551
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:20,000
Speaker 2: can't be too opinionated, or else you'll seem ungrateful. At

552
00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:21,440
Speaker 2: the end of the day, we all just want to

553
00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:26,120
Speaker 2: play video games the disabled community, and it's very fragile,

554
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:30,560
Speaker 2: like the relationship that gamers have with developers and studios.

555
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:33,760
Speaker 1: And this brings us to another reality, the fact that

556
00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:36,920
Speaker 1: even though Ross and other consultants have worked on some

557
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:40,440
Speaker 1: pretty big games, they often still don't make a living

558
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:42,880
Speaker 1: wage from it. A lot of the time they just

559
00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:43,960
Speaker 1: got to take what they can.

560
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:47,560
Speaker 2: I'm very transparent with how much this kind of work

561
00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:51,239
Speaker 2: pace because I just think it matters, because I get

562
00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:53,320
Speaker 2: a bunch of blind people saying like this is such

563
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:54,760
Speaker 2: a cool job, Like, how'd you get into it? I

564
00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:56,920
Speaker 2: want to do it, and I always tell them I'm like,

565
00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:00,520
Speaker 2: first off, it's a grind. Second, I'm on Social Security still,

566
00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:03,000
Speaker 2: Like that's how little I make Right now? The budget

567
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:07,040
Speaker 2: for paying for game accessibility consultants is at an all

568
00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:09,440
Speaker 2: time low. There were going to be some games I

569
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:12,200
Speaker 2: was going to work on that ended up being closed

570
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:14,600
Speaker 2: or shut down or whatever. It's rough. It's why I'm

571
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:17,000
Speaker 2: going back to college to finish my bachelords because I

572
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:18,600
Speaker 2: don't want to put all my eggs in one basket.

573
00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 2: It's why I do audience scription narration on the side.

574
00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:23,240
Speaker 2: It's why I do social media on the side, just

575
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 2: to like have different revenue streams because the industry has

576
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:28,560
Speaker 2: made a lot of progress, but it's still got a

577
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:29,160
Speaker 2: lot of work to do.

578
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:32,640
Speaker 1: Ross right now is as close to living his dream

579
00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:35,520
Speaker 1: as he's ever been. He's helping to make video games

580
00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:39,440
Speaker 1: accessible for players like him, but the industry isn't taking

581
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:42,320
Speaker 1: that seriously enough that he can rely on his work

582
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:45,960
Speaker 1: for his livelihood. But he's still passionate about this project

583
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:48,160
Speaker 1: and he knows that this is a path that he

584
00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:51,160
Speaker 1: wants to take. He even has a tattoo to prove it.

585
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:55,240
Speaker 2: This is the Garrettos tattoo. So when I was a

586
00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:57,920
Speaker 2: Paralympic swimmer, I was training full time at the Olympic

587
00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:02,200
Speaker 2: Training Center and I got the tattoo because I mean

588
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:04,480
Speaker 2: I was nineteen nine one tattoos, I was able to

589
00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:06,280
Speaker 2: get him. And then I also wanted something.

590
00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:09,680
Speaker 1: Cool, right forgot to mention on top of everything else.

591
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:13,080
Speaker 1: Ross is also a world class athlete. When I first

592
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:15,600
Speaker 1: talked to him, he was training as a Paralympic swimmer

593
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:18,000
Speaker 1: for the twenty twenty Games of Japan. And if you're

594
00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:21,320
Speaker 1: not familiar with Garo Dos, it's this big water dragon

595
00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:24,400
Speaker 1: looking thing that wraps around his right bicep, and it

596
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:27,400
Speaker 1: makes sense. It's a water type Pokemon, so like a

597
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:30,560
Speaker 1: powerful swimmer. And he was where a lot of people

598
00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:33,280
Speaker 1: would assume that he'd want to be, but it just

599
00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:34,520
Speaker 1: wasn't really his dream.

600
00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:38,640
Speaker 2: I retired from the Paralympics, retired early and didn't go

601
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:44,280
Speaker 2: to Japan, and I realized, like that, the tattoo just

602
00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:46,560
Speaker 2: has like a new meeting. Now it's really about what

603
00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:50,560
Speaker 2: games me to me, what Pokemon means to me. Pokemon

604
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:53,760
Speaker 2: was like where it really started, you know, that's why

605
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:56,800
Speaker 2: I have it now, and I'm kind of glad that

606
00:32:56,880 --> 00:32:58,760
Speaker 2: it took on that meaning because I think it's just

607
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:02,040
Speaker 2: like a lot more true to who I am when

608
00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:06,320
Speaker 2: you go blind in the way that I have people

609
00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:11,520
Speaker 2: say that you're a miracle, or that you're strong or

610
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:14,840
Speaker 2: that you're going to do great things because you survived

611
00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:19,040
Speaker 2: a gunshot or because you're living your life blind. And

612
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:20,680
Speaker 2: it's like, okay, but I don't have a choice to

613
00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:24,160
Speaker 2: live my life blind. But growing up, all that was

614
00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:29,680
Speaker 2: like kind of like instilled in me, and not in

615
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:32,640
Speaker 2: a good way. Hmmm, what do you mean, Well, just

616
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:35,840
Speaker 2: the feeling of like I need to do something great

617
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:39,080
Speaker 2: because of what happened to me, as opposed to just

618
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:43,320
Speaker 2: living my life. And so that was the difference between

619
00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:48,120
Speaker 2: the Paralympics and gaming scessibility, because like the Paralympics, you know,

620
00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:50,440
Speaker 2: all my life I have people say like, oh, you're

621
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:51,960
Speaker 2: great at swimming. You should go all the way to

622
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:54,280
Speaker 2: the top, all the way to the Paralympics. And then

623
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:56,040
Speaker 2: in my mind, I'm like, yeah, like this, I'm gonna

624
00:33:56,040 --> 00:34:00,640
Speaker 2: do great and I'm gonna win medals and hire people

625
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:04,160
Speaker 2: because I felt like that was my mission to inspire people.

626
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:06,880
Speaker 2: But with game accessibility is like I can do something

627
00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:09,880
Speaker 2: great that I also actually care about.

628
00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 1: The gaming industry still has a long way to go,

629
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:18,399
Speaker 1: but Ross, along with other accessibility consultants and advocates, are

630
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:21,920
Speaker 1: working hard to make this medium playable for all abilities.

631
00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:24,359
Speaker 1: The dream would be that one day Ross could walk

632
00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:26,480
Speaker 1: up to the shelf, pull any game down and just

633
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:29,279
Speaker 1: play it, and that any other gamer could also, even

634
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:32,319
Speaker 1: if they're blind or deaf or have difficulty holding the

635
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:34,920
Speaker 1: controller in the way that I hold it. But you know,

636
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:37,920
Speaker 1: first things first, he's still thinking about that dream that

637
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:43,640
Speaker 1: he had back in twenty eleven. You mentioned Skyrim? What

638
00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:45,640
Speaker 1: would it take for you to play Skyrim?

639
00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:48,239
Speaker 2: Pretty much the same features that exist in the Loss

640
00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:51,000
Speaker 2: of Us. The only one I would really like modifies

641
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:53,759
Speaker 2: like the navigation system to make it more dynamic as

642
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:56,120
Speaker 2: seat of linear, because that's kind of what you have

643
00:34:56,160 --> 00:34:58,600
Speaker 2: to do in general for an open world game is

644
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:01,400
Speaker 2: find a way to allow the player to go wherever

645
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:04,200
Speaker 2: they want, whenever they want, not where you think they

646
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:06,680
Speaker 2: want to go, or not in like one set path,

647
00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:08,560
Speaker 2: because that's like what the Loss of Us does right now.

648
00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:11,360
Speaker 2: That's all it would take, you know, one day if

649
00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:15,359
Speaker 2: they ever like re remaster it or whatever, maybe they'll

650
00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:17,439
Speaker 2: watch them reach out to me or something and help

651
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:20,799
Speaker 2: make it accessible, because like, like that is that is

652
00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:21,640
Speaker 2: the game for me.

653
00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:28,480
Speaker 1: So if there's any developers out there, Ross's info is

654
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:30,680
Speaker 1: in the show notes or actually I'll just tell you

655
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Speaker 1: right now, Rossminder dot com High Ladder. But in the meantime,

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Speaker 1: I do happen to know some people who are working

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Speaker 1: on something that can make accessibility like this a little

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Speaker 1: easier to implement. We'll get into that in part two

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Speaker 1: of this episode, which comes out later this week. Thank

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Speaker 1: you so much for listening to kill Switch. If you

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Speaker 1: want to talk, we're here at kill Switch at Kaleidoscope

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00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:55,239
Speaker 1: dot NYC, or on Instagram at kill switch pod and

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00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:57,400
Speaker 1: wherever you happen to be listening to this, leave us

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00:35:57,440 --> 00:35:59,839
Speaker 1: a review. It helps other people find the show, which

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00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:03,759
Speaker 1: helps us keep doing our thing. Killswitch is hosted by

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Speaker 1: Me Dexter Thomas. It's produced by Shina Ozaki, Darluck Potts,

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00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:10,759
Speaker 1: and Julia Nutter. Our theme song is by me and

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00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:14,520
Speaker 1: Kyle Murdoch, and Kyle also mixed the show from Kaleidoscope.

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Speaker 1: Our executive producers are Ozma lashin On, Gesh Hajikador and

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00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:22,360
Speaker 1: Kate Osbourne from iHeart Our executive producers are Katrina Norvil

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Speaker 1: and Nikki E.

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Speaker 3: Tour.

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Speaker 1: Also, Killswitch is now on YouTube. We're starting to put

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Speaker 1: some of our episodes on there, so if you want

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Speaker 1: the experience with the visuals, like seeing what these anime

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00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:34,319
Speaker 1: girl YouTuber concerts from a few episodes ago look like,

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Speaker 1: the link to that is in the show notes. And

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Speaker 1: one more thing, I mentioned that I wrote about Ross

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Speaker 1: Minor for Wired magazine, so there's some details in there

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Speaker 1: that we just didn't have time to get into in

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Speaker 1: this podcast, like what happened when we tried to go

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Speaker 1: get pizza, especially on the way home, So if you

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Speaker 1: want to check that one out, the link to that

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Speaker 1: is in the show notes. Anyway, catch on the next one,

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Speaker 1: well along, good Bye,