WEBVTT - Amazon Slips Below $1 Trillion in Value 0:00:01.800 --> 0:00:04.440 This is Bloomberg Business Week. I'm Carol Masser and I'm 0:00:04.440 --> 0:00:07.280 Bloomberg Quick Takes Tim Stanovk. We're here every day bringing 0:00:07.280 --> 0:00:09.799 you the latest news from the world of business and finance, 0:00:09.840 --> 0:00:13.640 plus technology, politics, economics, all partnising the power of Business 0:00:13.640 --> 0:00:17.119 Week reporters and editors, not to mention our journalists and 0:00:17.160 --> 0:00:19.599 analyst in more than one and twenty countries. You can 0:00:19.640 --> 0:00:23.239 download Bloomberg Business Week and iTunes, SoundCloud, or Bloomberg dot Com. 0:00:23.400 --> 0:00:25.160 You can also listen to our radio show at two 0:00:25.160 --> 0:00:27.840 pm Eastern Time on Bloomberg Radio, or watch us on 0:00:27.880 --> 0:00:32.960 YouTube search Bloomberg Global News Amazon, which, as you know, 0:00:33.040 --> 0:00:35.920 as we've been reporting shocking Wall Street projecting the slowest 0:00:35.920 --> 0:00:38.600 holiday growth quarter in the company's history. We've seen the 0:00:38.640 --> 0:00:42.000 stock plunge big time last night and the trade carrying 0:00:42.080 --> 0:00:46.080 over into the regular day. Today. Amazade's mark market value 0:00:46.080 --> 0:00:48.760 set to fall below a trillion dollars after its disappointing 0:00:48.800 --> 0:00:51.160 earnings report. So let's get to it with our own 0:00:51.320 --> 0:00:54.080 Matt Day, Matt Day's technology reporter for Bloomberg News, who 0:00:54.160 --> 0:00:56.400 joins us via zoom from Seattle. Matt, you've had close 0:00:56.440 --> 0:00:58.760 to twenty four hours to dig into this to report 0:00:58.800 --> 0:01:01.800 on this the slowest ever growth for the company's holiday quarter. 0:01:01.800 --> 0:01:03.840 I mean, that's the part that really sticks out to me. 0:01:04.160 --> 0:01:05.959 What is it? Is this more of an Amazon story? 0:01:06.000 --> 0:01:08.920 Is it more of an economy story? I think it's both. 0:01:09.319 --> 0:01:11.320 Amazon has been trying to rein in costs all year. 0:01:11.840 --> 0:01:13.880 The last report show they didn't really do that, and 0:01:13.880 --> 0:01:15.840 I think it would be of a analyst this morning. 0:01:15.840 --> 0:01:17.720 I think it was who sounded the alarm and said, listen, 0:01:17.720 --> 0:01:20.280 if Amazon is projecting this week holiday quarter into the 0:01:20.319 --> 0:01:23.520 can row as lowest two, then we might already be intercession. 0:01:23.640 --> 0:01:25.280 Um that that on its own as an indication that, 0:01:25.360 --> 0:01:27.280 you know, it's not just an Amazon story with something 0:01:27.560 --> 0:01:30.760 going wrong in the wider economy. Having said that, what 0:01:30.959 --> 0:01:34.240 are though, the Amazon specific issues, Because there are some, right, 0:01:35.000 --> 0:01:37.880 Oh there are. Yeah. They when the pandemic hit and 0:01:37.920 --> 0:01:40.399 everybody you know went home and started shopping online for 0:01:40.400 --> 0:01:44.360 for everything by choice or by need, Amazon started spending 0:01:44.440 --> 0:01:47.319 huge new warehouses. You know, they were still building new 0:01:47.400 --> 0:01:50.320 data centers for their cloud computing business, and that worked 0:01:50.320 --> 0:01:53.000 out for you know, called eighteen months late last year, 0:01:53.040 --> 0:01:55.120 when demand started to dry up, they realized they had 0:01:55.160 --> 0:01:56.920 way too much based way too many people, and so 0:01:56.960 --> 0:02:00.200 they've been in cost cutting mode basically all year long. UM. 0:02:00.200 --> 0:02:02.600 We've seen recently that spread to their corporate ranks as well. 0:02:02.640 --> 0:02:05.320 They're starting to wind down some of their marginal products, 0:02:05.360 --> 0:02:06.920 stuff that they didn't think was going to make it big. 0:02:06.960 --> 0:02:09.960 They shut down their telehealth service. UM. So there's still 0:02:10.000 --> 0:02:11.840 you know, investing for the long term as Amazon like 0:02:11.919 --> 0:02:14.560 Sterm mind folks, but they definitely overbuilt based on what 0:02:14.600 --> 0:02:18.639 they saw in What about that profit engine known as 0:02:18.680 --> 0:02:22.040 Amazon Web Services a WS. What did we learned about 0:02:22.040 --> 0:02:25.080 the company in terms of how cloud growth is doing, 0:02:25.200 --> 0:02:28.400 especially in the context of what Microsoft reported earlier this 0:02:28.440 --> 0:02:32.239 week as Microsoft given warning and Amazon gave maybe even 0:02:32.240 --> 0:02:36.240 bigger one. Growth is great for a business that prints money, 0:02:36.280 --> 0:02:38.880 but um, it is the lowest ever since Amazon began 0:02:38.960 --> 0:02:43.360 breaking out aws back in One worrying thing for analysts 0:02:43.400 --> 0:02:47.480 on the call yesterday now, Amazon CFO said that some 0:02:47.560 --> 0:02:50.000 customers were asking for help cutting their bills. Um, and 0:02:50.040 --> 0:02:52.320 some pretty dour chatter about what businesses we're doing with 0:02:52.320 --> 0:02:54.120 cloud spending. We didn't hear much of that at all. 0:02:54.240 --> 0:02:56.680 During the pandemic. Cloud spending held up really well. So 0:02:56.720 --> 0:02:59.280 I suggest that this is something new for awus. Wait, 0:02:59.320 --> 0:03:01.040 am I crazy and thinking that we could be talking 0:03:01.040 --> 0:03:04.000 about Microsoft right now? Didn't Microsoft essentially say the exact 0:03:04.040 --> 0:03:06.919 same thing. Yeah, exactly right. And that's enough enough to 0:03:07.320 --> 0:03:09.120 compound to worry about a business that you know, people 0:03:09.120 --> 0:03:10.800 have been saying it's going to grow forever and throwing 0:03:10.800 --> 0:03:13.560 out a bunch of ludicrous figures on exactly how profit 0:03:13.639 --> 0:03:16.120 is going to be for Microsoft and Amazon. Amazon said 0:03:16.160 --> 0:03:18.440 they started seeing a lot of softness and their enterprise 0:03:18.440 --> 0:03:20.280 customers in the second half the third quarter, and then 0:03:20.280 --> 0:03:23.160 it's continued this this quarter. You know it's interesting too, 0:03:23.160 --> 0:03:25.560 And I know you wrote and reported earlier that you know, 0:03:25.639 --> 0:03:27.840 we did see actually shares of Amazon and the market 0:03:27.880 --> 0:03:31.600 capt go below a trillion. Amazon shares they're trading definitely 0:03:31.600 --> 0:03:33.720 off their worst levels of this session. In fact, it's 0:03:33.720 --> 0:03:36.680 just the biggest drop since Mayo. So it's not like 0:03:37.120 --> 0:03:40.120 we haven't seen it in years. If you will, um, so, 0:03:40.200 --> 0:03:41.840 how do you I don't know, how do we spend 0:03:41.880 --> 0:03:43.720 this forward? Matt? How do we need to be thinking 0:03:43.760 --> 0:03:45.840 about this? Because I gotta say, I keep saying to 0:03:45.880 --> 0:03:48.280 Tim all week, you know my world is I'm ordering 0:03:48.320 --> 0:03:53.520 on Amazon, I'm watching Amazon Prime. I use lots of 0:03:53.520 --> 0:03:57.280 Apple products and I Google everything, so like that's my world. 0:03:57.400 --> 0:04:01.080 So these three companies, you know, and Amazon and particularly 0:04:01.080 --> 0:04:03.280 so entrenched in our worlds, are many of our worlds. 0:04:04.720 --> 0:04:06.720 Long term, Amazon is probably gonna be fine. They're not 0:04:06.760 --> 0:04:08.920 gonna go out of business. You know, some analysts this morning, 0:04:08.920 --> 0:04:12.240 are you trying to calm that drop we saw after 0:04:12.280 --> 0:04:14.680 hours last night? You've seen it. It bounts this morning. 0:04:14.720 --> 0:04:17.520 As you said, Um, They're advertising business is still growing. 0:04:17.560 --> 0:04:20.520 They're probably still going to take share there because they're 0:04:20.520 --> 0:04:22.600 just so close to people's wallets. Right. You know, Google 0:04:22.640 --> 0:04:25.080 and Facebook have an idea what you buy. Amazon knows 0:04:25.080 --> 0:04:26.960 exactly what you buy. So their ad business is still 0:04:27.000 --> 0:04:29.240 a bright spot form cloud growth. Even if it's only 0:04:30.200 --> 0:04:32.360 that's still a very lucrative business that's got a long 0:04:32.360 --> 0:04:35.000 way to goo. Um, the long term outlook is is 0:04:35.040 --> 0:04:36.480 okay for them as long as they can get their 0:04:36.520 --> 0:04:39.760 costs under control. Where analysts most bullish when it comes 0:04:39.760 --> 0:04:42.800 to what Amazon can do, is it that ad business 0:04:42.880 --> 0:04:45.320 because I don't know, I mean, do Apple's I d 0:04:45.480 --> 0:04:48.479 f A changes affect that it doesn't seem like it's 0:04:48.480 --> 0:04:51.040 a similar type of ad business because people you know, 0:04:51.080 --> 0:04:52.839 are going there searching for what to buy, and then 0:04:52.880 --> 0:04:55.479 they buy the product that they search for. Yeah, exactly, 0:04:55.520 --> 0:04:57.640 definitely a different story than than kind of the the 0:04:57.720 --> 0:05:00.480 gut punch to Facebook that that change was ads is 0:05:00.600 --> 0:05:03.360 is definitely spot People are real optimistic about cloud is too. 0:05:03.400 --> 0:05:05.479 I mean, you've seen Amazon trade much more like a 0:05:05.520 --> 0:05:08.440 tech stock than a retail stock in the last really 0:05:08.520 --> 0:05:11.000 since they reported AWS results for the first time in 0:05:11.800 --> 0:05:14.200 so clouds and other obvious area where people are really 0:05:14.800 --> 0:05:16.560 I think in the long term, people still think that, 0:05:16.640 --> 0:05:20.040 you know, their retail business can show profits more than 0:05:20.080 --> 0:05:23.080 a half historically, right, Let's get right, Matt, is there 0:05:23.080 --> 0:05:24.960 at some point we look at these companies that you know, 0:05:25.440 --> 0:05:27.159 I mean Amazon for a long time, right, we were 0:05:27.200 --> 0:05:28.920 just waiting for it to turn a profit, and there's 0:05:28.960 --> 0:05:31.000 a lot of investing, and finally it did. But at 0:05:31.040 --> 0:05:33.680 some point what we consider maybe growth companies, all of 0:05:33.720 --> 0:05:35.919 a sudden, they still grow, they just don't grow at 0:05:35.960 --> 0:05:38.680 the dramatic rates. They become these behemoths, you know, in 0:05:38.720 --> 0:05:41.239 their industry, and moving the needle gets harder and harder. 0:05:41.360 --> 0:05:44.719 Is that fair to say or maybe not? I think 0:05:44.720 --> 0:05:47.520 it's definitely something worth watching for Amazon now, like have 0:05:47.680 --> 0:05:50.200 we hit peak? Amazon was kind of the crazy growth 0:05:50.200 --> 0:05:52.520 we saw are in pandemic? Enought to call it and say, listen, 0:05:52.800 --> 0:05:54.880 this might be a different company now. One of the 0:05:54.960 --> 0:05:57.760 signs of that yesterday analysts were asking on the conference 0:05:57.760 --> 0:06:00.680 call after earnings when Amazon might stop investing in new 0:06:00.720 --> 0:06:02.960 data centers. That is that is a crazy bit of 0:06:03.000 --> 0:06:05.640 costume and the suggestion that they should slow down growth 0:06:05.680 --> 0:06:07.760 on you know, it's thought to be a potential trillion 0:06:07.800 --> 0:06:11.520 dollar market opportunity, right, Um, yeah, definitely some some caution 0:06:11.560 --> 0:06:13.200 out there, right everything, And I think about what Mike 0:06:13.279 --> 0:06:16.159 McKee talked about, like was it some distribution facilities that 0:06:16.440 --> 0:06:18.440 it was in the latest growth data that you're not 0:06:18.480 --> 0:06:20.600 seeing as much of it as happening, So you do 0:06:20.600 --> 0:06:23.800 wonder about this, right the retrenchment. Hey, Matt Day, thank 0:06:23.800 --> 0:06:26.480 you so much. Matt is technology reporter at Bloomberg News. 0:06:26.560 --> 0:06:31.320 Joining us via zoom from Seattle. You're listening to Bloomberg 0:06:31.400 --> 0:06:35.080 Business Week with Carol Messer and Bloomberg Quick Takes Tim 0:06:35.160 --> 0:06:39.400 Stinovic on Bloomberg Radio. For just the second time ever, 0:06:39.520 --> 0:06:42.919 an entire issue of Bloomberg Business Week magazine is dedicated 0:06:42.960 --> 0:06:45.320 to a single topic from a single writer. You might 0:06:45.320 --> 0:06:48.200 recall Paul Ford's what is Code? That was the first. Well, 0:06:48.200 --> 0:06:51.719 this time around it is Bloomberg Opinions Matt Levin giving 0:06:51.760 --> 0:06:54.919 us forty thou words on digital assets, a primer on 0:06:54.960 --> 0:06:57.599 the innovation that could forever change the way we transact 0:06:57.600 --> 0:06:59.480 and how we view the world of finance. It is 0:06:59.560 --> 0:07:02.479 called the Crypto Story, Your guide to what it does, 0:07:02.520 --> 0:07:04.840 what it means, and why it still matters. Matt, as 0:07:04.880 --> 0:07:07.760 you know, covers finance. He was an editor of deal Breaker, 0:07:07.800 --> 0:07:10.320 an investment banker at Goldman, Sachs and m and a 0:07:10.400 --> 0:07:12.600 lawyer at Wachtell Lipton, a clerk for the U S 0:07:12.640 --> 0:07:14.880 Court of Appeals for the Third Circuit. He joins us 0:07:14.960 --> 0:07:17.160 via zoom from New York City, and he joins us 0:07:17.160 --> 0:07:20.040 along with the editor of Bloomberg Business Week magazine, Joel 0:07:20.040 --> 0:07:23.360 whoever he is in our interactive broker studio. So, UM, 0:07:23.520 --> 0:07:24.960 we want to get to Matt, but tell us a 0:07:25.000 --> 0:07:27.720 little bit about how this all came to be UM 0:07:27.800 --> 0:07:32.680 So earlier UM in the year. Over the summer UM, 0:07:32.880 --> 0:07:37.120 we started watching Crypto Winter unfold and we started to 0:07:37.120 --> 0:07:39.880 have several conversations that led to a big conversation where 0:07:39.880 --> 0:07:42.120 it was like, Hey, what are all the various things 0:07:42.200 --> 0:07:45.200 we want to try and put in motion? Um, sooner 0:07:45.280 --> 0:07:48.360 rather than later. And out of that little huddle UM 0:07:48.720 --> 0:07:53.120 on the afternoon of June. Uh. In the middle of 0:07:53.160 --> 0:07:55.800 that meeting, actually, um, the number one thing that everybody 0:07:55.800 --> 0:07:58.240 wanted was how do we get Matt Levin to write 0:07:58.320 --> 0:08:01.760 something about crypto? And so I wrote in the middle 0:08:01.760 --> 0:08:05.000 of that meeting this note, Hey there to Matt, Hey, 0:08:05.000 --> 0:08:07.840 there any chance you'd like to write like twenty words 0:08:07.880 --> 0:08:11.440 for us sometime this summer. I could go approximately eighteen 0:08:11.480 --> 0:08:15.760 thousand words shorter or longer as you prefer. And built 0:08:15.800 --> 0:08:17.880 into that was this insurance policy that maybe if I 0:08:17.920 --> 0:08:21.440 couldn't get twenty or forty or sixty, like, maybe I 0:08:21.480 --> 0:08:25.000 could get two thousand um. Uh. And And it took 0:08:25.040 --> 0:08:28.440 him about a week to reply um. And in typical 0:08:28.800 --> 0:08:32.160 uh Matt fashion, he said, UM, I have not replied 0:08:32.160 --> 0:08:36.000 to this, sorry because there is some chance like it 0:08:36.000 --> 0:08:37.559 feels like a bad idea, but I kind of want 0:08:37.600 --> 0:08:41.320 to what were you thinking? Um? Uh. So that that 0:08:41.480 --> 0:08:43.520 flirting led to where we are now. We have this 0:08:43.559 --> 0:08:47.720 amazing issue, UM, which is totally just a testament uh 0:08:47.760 --> 0:08:50.640 to Matt and um, he and I were talking earlier 0:08:50.720 --> 0:08:54.079 this week with look, we all a doormat, we love 0:08:54.160 --> 0:08:57.880 his newsletter, we love money stuff. His Elon coverage has 0:08:57.920 --> 0:09:01.520 been sensational, and um, you know, had had any of 0:09:01.559 --> 0:09:04.440 this madness with Elon transpired any sooner, I don't think 0:09:04.440 --> 0:09:06.760 Matt would have actually done this. So so thank you 0:09:06.800 --> 0:09:09.800 for you know, um uh, you know, not having that chaos. 0:09:09.880 --> 0:09:12.880 But Matt, what was the thing when when we started flirting? 0:09:12.920 --> 0:09:15.480 What was the thing that you felt was the spark 0:09:15.559 --> 0:09:20.120 that want you made you want to do this? Uh? 0:09:20.200 --> 0:09:22.120 I mean the thing that I really wanted to do 0:09:22.200 --> 0:09:24.880 is that, you know, crypto feels like a big enough 0:09:24.920 --> 0:09:27.760 subject that it could support an entire magazine issue, but 0:09:27.800 --> 0:09:30.400 it's also like a small enough subject that it feels 0:09:30.400 --> 0:09:33.360 like like one person could almost get their mind around 0:09:33.360 --> 0:09:37.800 all of it and then like type sequentially an explanation 0:09:37.840 --> 0:09:39.720 of all of it. So you can sort of start 0:09:39.720 --> 0:09:42.920 from the first principles and there's like a real obvious 0:09:42.960 --> 0:09:45.880 starting point where the Stosia knocking about a bitcoin white 0:09:45.880 --> 0:09:47.880 paper is like, hey, I've got this idea for crypto, 0:09:48.200 --> 0:09:50.640 and then everything more or less comes out of that, 0:09:51.040 --> 0:09:52.960 So you can kind of start from the beginning and 0:09:53.400 --> 0:09:56.320 build from the basic concepts up to all of the 0:09:56.360 --> 0:09:59.280 complicated stuff that exists today. And that just seemed like 0:09:59.280 --> 0:10:03.080 a really fun ellens to try to uh cover everything. 0:10:03.240 --> 0:10:05.920 And of course in the end, long though it is, 0:10:06.679 --> 0:10:09.360 it doesn't cover everything, but like it felt like a 0:10:09.360 --> 0:10:15.600 good thing to try. Um So the title, um, it 0:10:15.720 --> 0:10:20.040 started as me saying, um, what what is crypto? Which 0:10:20.160 --> 0:10:22.600 you know, was loosely inspired by the Paul Ford thing. 0:10:22.640 --> 0:10:26.559 That was the closest approximation that I could come up with. Um, 0:10:26.640 --> 0:10:31.839 what was your title, Matt? And and why uh, I 0:10:31.840 --> 0:10:33.920 wouldn't say I had a title. I had a working title, 0:10:34.520 --> 0:10:38.600 joking working title, which was what was crypto? Because we 0:10:38.600 --> 0:10:40.840 were sort of joking about the fact that that in 0:10:40.880 --> 0:10:43.880 some ways, you know, it feels a little silly to 0:10:43.920 --> 0:10:47.240 do this during crypto winter, although actually I think that 0:10:47.360 --> 0:10:49.840 ended up being helpful because you're not kind of covering 0:10:49.840 --> 0:10:52.480 the market moves at the moment, but you know, you're 0:10:52.520 --> 0:10:54.520 kind of taking a step back and looking at the 0:10:54.559 --> 0:10:56.880 sort of broad sweep of crypto. What's kind of cool. 0:10:56.960 --> 0:10:59.120 As I have to say, Matt um loved it. I've 0:10:59.120 --> 0:11:00.720 read it. I've had to read read things a couple 0:11:00.760 --> 0:11:03.400 of times because I feel like though for the first time, 0:11:03.440 --> 0:11:06.400 I understand so much of crypto, and I realized how 0:11:06.440 --> 0:11:09.800 many things I probably was either using terminology wrong and 0:11:09.840 --> 0:11:13.640 I just didn't have an understanding. So thank you for that, um, 0:11:13.679 --> 0:11:15.520 And I do think in terms of crypto, love it, 0:11:15.559 --> 0:11:18.160 hate it you right, In the past fourteen years, crypto 0:11:18.200 --> 0:11:22.120 has built a whole financial system from scratch. Whether it 0:11:22.120 --> 0:11:26.880 works or not, that's kind of cool, isn't it. Yeah, 0:11:26.960 --> 0:11:29.040 I mean I like, you know, as I say in 0:11:29.080 --> 0:11:31.440 the piece, I come to this from finance, and ah, 0:11:32.320 --> 0:11:34.280 my interest is not so much I'm like, wh're re 0:11:34.400 --> 0:11:37.600 engineering the internet in society. My interest is, like they 0:11:37.640 --> 0:11:41.440 do cool financial stuff. And I think that for me, 0:11:41.520 --> 0:11:44.160 watching crypto has been fascinating because it's a mix of 0:11:44.200 --> 0:11:49.400 like very clever essentially financial engineers and like engineer engineers 0:11:49.760 --> 0:11:54.640 who are who are looking at the problems of existing 0:11:54.679 --> 0:11:57.640 finance and saying we have a better idea, but also 0:11:57.679 --> 0:12:01.240 watching people who sort of like our twenty three and 0:12:01.320 --> 0:12:04.400 like now to program a computer and like I've never 0:12:04.440 --> 0:12:07.720 heard of the two financial crisis and are like just 0:12:08.040 --> 0:12:10.680 doing it all over again and making the same mistakes 0:12:10.679 --> 0:12:13.839 and kind of hilarious fashion. So you get you get both, right, 0:12:13.920 --> 0:12:17.280 you get like real like clever financial innovations and also 0:12:17.400 --> 0:12:20.640 like disasters you can see coming a mile away. So 0:12:20.720 --> 0:12:22.800 let's talk about some the financial innovations before we talk 0:12:22.840 --> 0:12:25.760 about some of the disasters. To what extent have you 0:12:25.840 --> 0:12:29.400 seen the financial innovations actually make their way into the 0:12:29.400 --> 0:12:34.120 traditional finance system if at all, uh, not too much. 0:12:34.160 --> 0:12:36.440 You know, you see banks announcing we're going to do 0:12:36.520 --> 0:12:39.840 a blockchain project, right and like any time to make 0:12:39.880 --> 0:12:41.200 fun of that. I got an email from someone at 0:12:41.200 --> 0:12:44.120 a bank being like, well, we actually deployed a test 0:12:44.160 --> 0:12:46.800 example of our blockchain products. But in general, like I 0:12:46.840 --> 0:12:51.360 don't think that you know, the innovations of decentralized finance 0:12:51.400 --> 0:12:54.040 have come to a stock exchange near you. But what 0:12:54.160 --> 0:12:57.520 you have seen is people from traditional finance leaving to 0:12:57.559 --> 0:13:00.440 go to crypto now. That was largely feature of the 0:13:00.480 --> 0:13:02.439 crypto bullmarket, and some of them are kind of creeping 0:13:02.480 --> 0:13:04.920 back to traditional finance now. But I do think it 0:13:05.000 --> 0:13:07.240 was also a testament like the interestingness of that where 0:13:07.240 --> 0:13:10.880 like if you felt like you were uh you wanted 0:13:10.920 --> 0:13:13.200 to build stuff in finance where you wanted to like 0:13:13.320 --> 0:13:16.600 kind of you know, you saw a problem in the 0:13:16.640 --> 0:13:19.520 existing infrastructure and you wanted to make something different. The 0:13:19.960 --> 0:13:22.400 place where that was easiest to do, where you had 0:13:22.400 --> 0:13:24.800 the blankest canvas, was in crypto, and so a lot 0:13:24.800 --> 0:13:27.600 of smart people did leave their you know, hedge fund 0:13:27.679 --> 0:13:31.560 or high frequency trading jobs to trade crypto instead. So 0:13:31.600 --> 0:13:34.360 it's not so much that crypto took over traditional finance, 0:13:34.559 --> 0:13:38.280 but that you know, kind of hired away from it. Okay, 0:13:38.320 --> 0:13:41.280 So the first time I got to read the draft 0:13:41.440 --> 0:13:46.000 was in early August, and pat Rickner, who's uh the 0:13:46.000 --> 0:13:50.320 story editor, actually cracked it before I could get to it. Um, 0:13:50.320 --> 0:13:53.800 but he immediately flagged what was the first line? And 0:13:53.960 --> 0:13:56.120 I think it has not changed since you filed it. 0:13:56.480 --> 0:13:59.560 And the first line is modern life consists in large 0:13:59.600 --> 0:14:03.560 part of entries in databases. And what was magical to 0:14:03.640 --> 0:14:06.840 me about that was that we're gonna we're gonna end 0:14:06.920 --> 0:14:10.240 up with the story for words about crypto, and you 0:14:10.280 --> 0:14:12.720 don't start there, you start somewhere else. And can you 0:14:12.840 --> 0:14:15.880 can you share how that, how that line came to 0:14:15.920 --> 0:14:18.560 you and why you thought that was the perfect place 0:14:18.600 --> 0:14:24.600 to begin. Well, I think that you if you're going 0:14:24.640 --> 0:14:27.800 to take crypto seriously, you have to sort of start with, 0:14:27.840 --> 0:14:30.200 like what problem is it meant to solve? Like what 0:14:30.720 --> 0:14:32.560 like like in some ways, you know, I said, I 0:14:32.600 --> 0:14:33.960 want to start at the beginning and go to the end, 0:14:33.960 --> 0:14:35.440 but you have to start before the beginning, right, you 0:14:35.480 --> 0:14:38.280 have to start with like what is Satsia Nakamoto sitting 0:14:38.280 --> 0:14:40.840 around thinking about in two thousand seven, then inspires him 0:14:40.880 --> 0:14:45.800 to write the Bitcoin white paper? Right, like why have crypto? 0:14:46.240 --> 0:14:50.040 And I think that the answer has to do with, 0:14:50.120 --> 0:14:55.200 like one, the sort of computerization of the world where 0:14:55.200 --> 0:14:57.800 it's like easier and easier to kind of see that 0:14:58.520 --> 0:15:02.040 so much of life consists of data structures. And then 0:15:02.080 --> 0:15:05.360 also with this breakdown and trust where you know, as 0:15:05.400 --> 0:15:07.680 I say, like the world consists of a lot of 0:15:07.880 --> 0:15:11.560 entries and databases, and you have like real pressure on 0:15:11.680 --> 0:15:14.080 trusting the keepers of the databases. Right, you have real 0:15:14.120 --> 0:15:16.680 worries about you know, two thight you had real worries 0:15:16.680 --> 0:15:18.960 about banks. And that's like the sort of like immediate 0:15:18.960 --> 0:15:21.680 impetus for a bitcoin. Right. You don't trust the bank 0:15:21.760 --> 0:15:23.240 to keep a record of your money, not so much 0:15:23.240 --> 0:15:25.160 because they're not trustworthy of doing that, but because you 0:15:25.200 --> 0:15:27.280 sort of don't trust them generally, where you don't trust 0:15:27.360 --> 0:15:30.520 the system. You know, you don't trust the regulation um, 0:15:30.560 --> 0:15:32.360 and that kind of ramifies into a lot of other 0:15:32.400 --> 0:15:35.520 places where you don't want to rely on some single party. 0:15:35.560 --> 0:15:37.160 You don't want to rely on Facebook to kind of 0:15:37.240 --> 0:15:42.000 keep track of the social graph and so ah, that 0:15:42.200 --> 0:15:44.680 I think is like kind of the spark for for 0:15:44.680 --> 0:15:48.400 for crypto many ways, is like is saying, like, you know, 0:15:49.040 --> 0:15:50.400 if we come with a better way to keep a 0:15:50.480 --> 0:15:54.760 database that doesn't rely on trusting centralized parties, then that's good. 0:15:55.280 --> 0:15:58.640 And that's a that's kind of you know, I wanted 0:15:58.720 --> 0:16:02.000 to start with, like what motivates this rather than like, 0:16:02.520 --> 0:16:05.720 you know, well, I have to say, like this whole 0:16:05.760 --> 0:16:07.720 idea of trust. I love how you kind of wove 0:16:07.760 --> 0:16:09.640 it through everything, right, Like I throw money in a 0:16:09.640 --> 0:16:11.840 bank I expected to be there. I invest money in 0:16:11.840 --> 0:16:13.240 my four O one Kay, I expected to be there. 0:16:14.600 --> 0:16:17.720 Isn't really working this year. But I mean it's like 0:16:17.800 --> 0:16:20.400 digital right, Like I don't I have no interaction with 0:16:20.400 --> 0:16:23.160 the people who are really you know, covering it for me. 0:16:23.280 --> 0:16:25.440 There's so much trust when it comes to crypto. I 0:16:25.520 --> 0:16:28.640 keep thinking about, like who are these people? Why should 0:16:28.680 --> 0:16:31.760 we trust them? Ultimately? And I understand that if the 0:16:31.760 --> 0:16:34.560 system doesn't work, then nobody's going to be wanting to 0:16:34.600 --> 0:16:36.960 participate in it. But I feel like we still don't 0:16:37.000 --> 0:16:38.960 know these people, you know what I mean, that are 0:16:39.000 --> 0:16:42.000 behind it. How do you feel about it having kind 0:16:42.000 --> 0:16:45.200 of broken it down, Well, you don't know that, you know, 0:16:45.360 --> 0:16:50.960 Like maybe you do, but I don't know Jamy time right, 0:16:51.280 --> 0:16:56.680 like uh like like like another reason I wanted to 0:16:56.720 --> 0:16:58.840 start there is like to convey like just like the 0:16:58.920 --> 0:17:03.320 strangeness of trust in our everyday life that is sort 0:17:03.320 --> 0:17:05.879 of like, you know, I wanted to de familiarize that 0:17:05.920 --> 0:17:07.680 a little bit and be like, look, your whole life 0:17:07.680 --> 0:17:09.840 is databases and you trust the people who keep them, 0:17:09.880 --> 0:17:13.239 and like you don't think about it, right, because like 0:17:13.440 --> 0:17:15.639 that's just true in the world, and like you have 0:17:15.720 --> 0:17:18.280 to like think of the reasons why you trust the 0:17:18.359 --> 0:17:22.879 keepers of databases. And some large part of that is 0:17:22.920 --> 0:17:26.080 like there's this regulatory structure where like we sort of 0:17:26.320 --> 0:17:29.359 trust the government not to let people do crimes with 0:17:29.400 --> 0:17:31.320 our money, you know, And then other parts of it 0:17:31.359 --> 0:17:34.840 are like relying on market incentives where like you know, 0:17:35.280 --> 0:17:37.000 you can kind of like look at a company and 0:17:37.040 --> 0:17:39.680 be like, well, if this company was stealing people's money. 0:17:39.920 --> 0:17:43.080 It probably wouldn't be advertising on the subway because people 0:17:43.080 --> 0:17:44.880 would stop giving it their money. You know, you're sort 0:17:44.920 --> 0:17:46.359 of like relying on other people to kind of do 0:17:46.400 --> 0:17:49.720 the investigation for you. Uh And and in crypto, you know, 0:17:49.840 --> 0:17:52.119 like it's the same sort of basic set of things, 0:17:53.640 --> 0:17:57.680 but the mix is different. Right. So in crypto there's 0:17:59.560 --> 0:18:02.399 you know, round numbers. There's no government regulation, right, I 0:18:02.400 --> 0:18:03.960 mean there's actually a lot there's a lot of people 0:18:03.960 --> 0:18:06.360 doing a lot of things to regulate crypto. But like 0:18:06.600 --> 0:18:09.360 any given project that you look at in crypto, there's 0:18:09.400 --> 0:18:11.439 some chance that no regulator has thought about it, right, 0:18:11.480 --> 0:18:14.080 and they've certainly not like approved it, And certainly there's 0:18:14.080 --> 0:18:17.439 not legislation being like here's the steps you need to 0:18:17.440 --> 0:18:19.919 take to become a stable client in the US, right, 0:18:19.960 --> 0:18:23.800 I mean, like there's perspective legislation, but there's not there's 0:18:23.840 --> 0:18:26.159 not like a real kind of like working regulatory framework. 0:18:26.520 --> 0:18:28.679 And so you know, in much of the bunch of 0:18:28.680 --> 0:18:32.119 our lives, we trust, you know, people because there is 0:18:32.160 --> 0:18:35.320 a regulatory structure around them, and here there isn't. And 0:18:35.320 --> 0:18:39.200 that's weird and in many cases makes things less trustworthy. 0:18:39.200 --> 0:18:42.120 And so we saw in the crypto meltdown, a lot 0:18:42.160 --> 0:18:46.560 of like customer facasing brokerage is you know, kind of 0:18:46.600 --> 0:18:49.360 like lost their customers money because they didn't they were 0:18:49.480 --> 0:18:53.399 sort of doing very levered trades without telling anyone about it. Um, 0:18:53.440 --> 0:18:55.879 there's the market incentives thing, which in crypto is a 0:18:55.880 --> 0:18:58.080 big deal, right, Like you sort of go around thinking, well, 0:18:58.119 --> 0:19:00.040 if this is a big crypto exchange, it's probably be 0:19:00.160 --> 0:19:02.960 trustworthy because everyone else is trusting it, right, And that 0:19:03.119 --> 0:19:05.679 as a heuristic that's not terrible, but it has you know, 0:19:06.240 --> 0:19:08.320 in the past, the biggest bitcoin exchange at the time 0:19:08.440 --> 0:19:11.840 was blown up. So it's not a perfect heuristic by 0:19:11.880 --> 0:19:14.320 any means, nor is it in traditional finance, right big 0:19:14.359 --> 0:19:16.639 banks have blown up. Um. And then the third thing 0:19:16.640 --> 0:19:18.679 in crypto is like there is this notion that like 0:19:19.800 --> 0:19:22.399 not in all of crypto, but in lots of crypto, 0:19:22.480 --> 0:19:24.359 and like in like the core of bitcoin and in 0:19:24.440 --> 0:19:27.280 like decentralized finance, there is this notion that you can 0:19:27.320 --> 0:19:30.040 look at the code yourself, that everything is verifiable yourself. 0:19:30.040 --> 0:19:31.760 You can look at the codesea it works. You can 0:19:31.800 --> 0:19:34.600 look at the ledger of transactions, the blockchain and prove 0:19:34.640 --> 0:19:37.520 that every transaction is correct, and so you said you 0:19:37.560 --> 0:19:40.399 don't have to trust. You can verify everything without trusting it. 0:19:40.400 --> 0:19:42.280 In practice, you're not doing that because it would take forever, 0:19:42.600 --> 0:19:47.160 but you are, Ah, you're sort of trusting the fact 0:19:47.200 --> 0:19:49.439 that you could do that rapification, so you have you 0:19:49.440 --> 0:19:52.240 don't have to have as much trust in individuals. But 0:19:52.320 --> 0:19:53.960 that's not like the only thing in crypto. I mean, 0:19:54.040 --> 0:19:57.600 the crypto evangelists will talk about that being like the 0:19:57.960 --> 0:20:00.639 trustless nature of crypto, but obviously, like day to day, 0:20:00.680 --> 0:20:03.479 a lot of stuff in crypto involves trusting you know, 0:20:03.600 --> 0:20:07.600 companies and like individuals with your crypto, and often those 0:20:07.600 --> 0:20:10.000 people turn out not to be trust really. Yeah, we 0:20:10.000 --> 0:20:12.919 could do an entire program on talking about, you know, 0:20:12.960 --> 0:20:17.080 the history of crypto and the grifters or alleged grifters. Colorful, 0:20:17.600 --> 0:20:20.560 colorful characters exactly. We're speaking with Matt Lavin. He's a 0:20:20.560 --> 0:20:23.919 columnist for Bloomberg Opinion. He is the story is The 0:20:24.000 --> 0:20:26.600 story is his in a Bloomberg Business Week magazine this week. 0:20:26.640 --> 0:20:28.439 If you haven't read it yet, I think you're the 0:20:28.480 --> 0:20:33.280 only one. Uh, it is on the Bloomberg terminal. It's 0:20:33.280 --> 0:20:35.720 a lot of words to get through. Okay, if you 0:20:35.760 --> 0:20:39.160 haven't started reading it, yet you might be the only one. Um. 0:20:39.200 --> 0:20:41.520 We also have Joel Webber, the editor of Bloomberg Business Week, 0:20:41.520 --> 0:20:44.280 with us in the Bloomberg Interactive Brokers studio. Matt, I 0:20:44.320 --> 0:20:47.080 want to hear more about your perceptions and conceptions of 0:20:47.080 --> 0:20:51.320 crypto before going into this versus after doing the reporting 0:20:51.359 --> 0:20:54.520 and writing, Like you must have gone in with some 0:20:54.600 --> 0:20:57.800 sort of notion and I'm wondering what that was and 0:20:57.800 --> 0:21:01.280 and if it changed by the end. I wouldn't say 0:21:01.280 --> 0:21:07.040 it changed true dramatically, and part of you know, like 0:21:07.040 --> 0:21:09.280 like I do come like I don't. I don't come 0:21:09.320 --> 0:21:11.000 to the story with an angle in the sense of 0:21:11.040 --> 0:21:13.520 like I'm a crypto booster or I'm a you know, 0:21:13.560 --> 0:21:16.239 crypto hater, And I kind of felt like that was 0:21:16.640 --> 0:21:18.640 the only way to do it right. Like I feel 0:21:18.640 --> 0:21:20.280 like I read a lot by crypto boosters that is 0:21:20.359 --> 0:21:23.919 very enthusiastic, but like very kind of in the weeds 0:21:23.960 --> 0:21:26.160 and jargon e and like and like, you know, sort 0:21:26.160 --> 0:21:28.359 of assumes you're already a believer. And I read a 0:21:28.400 --> 0:21:30.479 lot of stuff by skeptics that is just angry, and 0:21:30.520 --> 0:21:33.000 I wanted to sort of kind of find a middle ground. 0:21:33.000 --> 0:21:35.119 But like I do come from to it from the 0:21:35.119 --> 0:21:38.160 perspective of I am a financial writer, and I'm most 0:21:38.200 --> 0:21:43.720 interested in the crypto financial system, and so in writing this, 0:21:44.800 --> 0:21:48.159 I found myself often charmed by the crypto financial system 0:21:48.160 --> 0:21:50.760 and by like the cleverness of of like what people 0:21:51.040 --> 0:21:55.760 were doing in decentralized finance, and by the enthusiasm of 0:21:55.840 --> 0:21:59.119 people who work in crypto finance, not just about like 0:21:59.160 --> 0:22:03.720 making a lot of money, but about how someone said 0:22:03.720 --> 0:22:06.320 to me, things just work in crypto, like you just 0:22:06.880 --> 0:22:09.639 like if you want to like start trading stuff, you 0:22:09.720 --> 0:22:12.240 like plug into the exchange and you start trading this stuff. 0:22:12.520 --> 0:22:18.080 And in traditional finance, there's a lot more like uh process, right, 0:22:18.119 --> 0:22:20.240 there's a lot more like you you like call a 0:22:20.280 --> 0:22:22.280 bank and they send you a contract so you can 0:22:22.560 --> 0:22:24.840 sign up an account, and then like you know, you 0:22:24.920 --> 0:22:26.560 have to like call someone else to like hook over 0:22:26.600 --> 0:22:28.159 your data to the exchange, and it's just like a 0:22:28.320 --> 0:22:35.600 more manual, complicated, subjective, you know process where like insiders 0:22:35.600 --> 0:22:39.000 sort of get more access and in crypto everything is 0:22:39.040 --> 0:22:44.119 sort of straightforward and computerized, and like like that's like 0:22:44.200 --> 0:22:46.199 what people told me, Like that's like that was the 0:22:46.240 --> 0:22:49.200 thing they liked that they could sort of start a product, 0:22:49.440 --> 0:22:52.640 start trading something, come up with an idea, and implement 0:22:52.720 --> 0:22:56.040 it without like sort of getting anyone's permission. Obviously there's 0:22:56.040 --> 0:22:57.720 a flip side to them, which is that like you 0:22:57.720 --> 0:23:00.359 don't get the regulators permission, and sometimes the product is like, 0:23:00.440 --> 0:23:05.360 you know, theft. But m h, that was a sort 0:23:05.400 --> 0:23:07.439 of that was a thing that like, I was struck 0:23:07.440 --> 0:23:10.720 by people's enthusiasm for that because I think that when 0:23:10.760 --> 0:23:13.879 I was you know, when I've written my column about crypto, 0:23:13.880 --> 0:23:16.520 I've often thought of crypto as being, you know, people 0:23:16.600 --> 0:23:18.919 call the block chain a slow database, and I think 0:23:18.960 --> 0:23:22.399 of it as being a sort of like ah, like 0:23:24.240 --> 0:23:26.560 like it like a difficult to use system in some 0:23:26.600 --> 0:23:31.240 ways because it is unintuitive to outsiders. But I think 0:23:31.280 --> 0:23:33.520 when you like, the people who use it find it 0:23:33.720 --> 0:23:36.199 so much easier to use than traditional finance because it 0:23:36.320 --> 0:23:40.520 is you know, kind of like disintermediated and permissionless and 0:23:40.640 --> 0:23:43.160 just like you can like read the documents and then 0:23:43.200 --> 0:23:47.320 go do the thing. H haters are gonna hate, and 0:23:48.160 --> 0:23:55.880 crypto haters will will ask, sure words, what's crypto for? Still, Yeah, 0:23:56.320 --> 0:24:02.400 I mean I don't like I I really I share 0:24:02.440 --> 0:24:05.760 that skepticism, you know, Like I I like there are 0:24:07.320 --> 0:24:12.119 like people tell stories about how crypto is changing our 0:24:12.160 --> 0:24:14.080 will change your day to day life, and I often 0:24:14.080 --> 0:24:18.440 find those stories not particularly compelling. Right, there's a lot 0:24:18.480 --> 0:24:22.120 of like you could own a share in the bands 0:24:22.160 --> 0:24:25.240 you like and then if those bands become popular, you'll 0:24:25.240 --> 0:24:27.560 get rich. It's like why what like how is that 0:24:27.680 --> 0:24:30.320 a thing? Um or there? Or like you know, you 0:24:30.320 --> 0:24:32.399 can like own your data on the on the on, 0:24:32.560 --> 0:24:35.440 like your social networks and you can get paid to 0:24:35.600 --> 0:24:39.400 serve ads to you like um, It's it's like it's 0:24:39.440 --> 0:24:42.200 like these stories of sort of like micropayments and like ownership, 0:24:42.440 --> 0:24:45.760 like like sort of financializing everything that uh you know, 0:24:45.880 --> 0:24:47.639 Like I'm a finance guy. I like that. I like 0:24:47.720 --> 0:24:49.800 some I like a certain amount of financialization, but I 0:24:49.840 --> 0:24:53.320 also like I spent a long time reading about like 0:24:54.600 --> 0:24:57.520 we're gonna like sell equity in college students so that 0:24:57.560 --> 0:25:00.520 you can like bet on their futures, and like you know, 0:25:01.280 --> 0:25:03.520 now I'm like, okay, yeah, people, people are gonna keep 0:25:03.560 --> 0:25:05.439 writing that's ever gonna happen, right, Like there are some 0:25:05.480 --> 0:25:08.280 things that that sort of resist financialization, and crypto is 0:25:08.280 --> 0:25:11.360 like we're going to financialize everything at once, and that 0:25:11.560 --> 0:25:15.479 seems implausible. To me. Um so in that sense, like 0:25:15.600 --> 0:25:18.280 I am like, like, I think there's there's you know, 0:25:18.359 --> 0:25:22.239 potential like stories like that that will come true. But 0:25:22.320 --> 0:25:25.560 I'm not super bullish. I'm like, we're gonna have a 0:25:25.560 --> 0:25:29.200 coin for everything that you do in your life. Um 0:25:29.320 --> 0:25:32.760 but uh, Matt, Matt, let me just ask you, because 0:25:32.800 --> 0:25:35.240 you know, we lost what two trillion dollars in crypto wealth, 0:25:35.359 --> 0:25:38.639 right that happened, and yet, as you point out in 0:25:39.040 --> 0:25:41.639 your in the magazine, you know, it's not like the 0:25:41.640 --> 0:25:45.320 rest of the financial markets or the economy came undone 0:25:45.359 --> 0:25:48.159 because of that. So what is the meeting of it? 0:25:48.200 --> 0:25:49.879 You know, what does that say about the future in 0:25:50.000 --> 0:25:52.200 terms of the value of crypto? Crypto and that First 0:25:52.240 --> 0:25:54.200 of all, we're glad it didn't bring down the markets, 0:25:54.600 --> 0:25:56.720 But I mean, what does it say about its real 0:25:56.840 --> 0:25:59.840 value going forward? Or maybe it doesn't. I don't know. 0:26:01.200 --> 0:26:07.760 Uh yeah, I mean I do think that. I mean, 0:26:07.760 --> 0:26:08.959 first of all, we lost a lot more than two 0:26:09.000 --> 0:26:13.160 trillion dollars of stock market wealth you know this year, 0:26:13.440 --> 0:26:23.800 Like uh, Like, you know, like crypto whatever else it is, 0:26:24.480 --> 0:26:26.880 is a very speculative asset class, right, Like people who 0:26:26.880 --> 0:26:30.480 invest in crypto for the most part, are like, this 0:26:30.520 --> 0:26:32.359 is a fun gamble more than they're like, this is 0:26:32.359 --> 0:26:34.320 where I'm putting my life savings because it's like and 0:26:34.400 --> 0:26:36.720 I promised me a study two percent return. So the 0:26:36.760 --> 0:26:39.720 fact that it crashed, you know, people who were betting 0:26:39.720 --> 0:26:41.240 on it going up it went down, but they could 0:26:41.240 --> 0:26:43.040 sort of afford to take that loss because it was 0:26:43.119 --> 0:26:45.960 essentially a speculative asset. So that's one reason that it 0:26:45.960 --> 0:26:48.160 didn't really like ramified to the rest of the economy. 0:26:48.240 --> 0:26:50.160 But the other reason is definitely that like you're not 0:26:50.359 --> 0:26:53.920 you know, financing your home or your you know, your 0:26:53.960 --> 0:26:57.119 business by like going to the crypto lender, and so 0:26:57.520 --> 0:27:01.760 crypto is not super integrated into into like the financing 0:27:01.840 --> 0:27:05.199 of real world activity. So it is it is you know, 0:27:05.200 --> 0:27:08.040 when it crashes, it's not like the crypto bank shuts 0:27:08.040 --> 0:27:09.960 down and you can't get a mortgage for your house, 0:27:10.480 --> 0:27:12.600 like you can still go to the regular bank. Um. 0:27:12.600 --> 0:27:14.280 So yeah, I mean I think I've said that like 0:27:14.280 --> 0:27:22.520 like to the if the next crypto financial crisis, because 0:27:22.520 --> 0:27:24.560 there really was a crypto financial crisis this year with 0:27:24.640 --> 0:27:27.440 like failing you know, lenders, If the next crypto financial 0:27:27.440 --> 0:27:30.200 crisis causes a slowdown in the real economy. Then you'll 0:27:30.240 --> 0:27:33.080 be like, oh, Crypto arrived, Like Crypto is now like 0:27:33.160 --> 0:27:36.680 meaningfully integrated into everyone's lives such that when it crashes 0:27:36.840 --> 0:27:39.360 that affects the world. We're like, we're not quite there yet. 0:27:40.840 --> 0:27:44.440 So Matt, um, you know we do this every week, um, um, 0:27:44.440 --> 0:27:48.240 wondering what's your next single topic issue takeover of the 0:27:48.280 --> 0:27:50.800 magazine and and what kind of deadline I can give 0:27:50.800 --> 0:27:53.440 you now that we do well, you know I'm gonna 0:27:53.480 --> 0:27:57.520 I'm gonna do a retrospective on Elon Musk. I'll go, 0:27:58.600 --> 0:28:00.479 I'm never gonna write it again. Yeah, it right right 0:28:02.760 --> 0:28:04.920 my control. I mean, I guess the question is kind 0:28:04.920 --> 0:28:07.479 of where the story goes from here? To me, that 0:28:07.840 --> 0:28:10.840 is the most interesting part about Crypto, right, And I 0:28:10.880 --> 0:28:13.359 won't even pretend to know, And that wasn't really the 0:28:13.359 --> 0:28:17.480 goal of the project. Um, although I think Matt poses 0:28:17.520 --> 0:28:19.119 some really and I don't want to give away the 0:28:19.160 --> 0:28:22.240 ending because he just it's a really majestic way that 0:28:22.400 --> 0:28:26.320 I think he wrestles with this question. Um. And boy, 0:28:26.440 --> 0:28:29.960 I will just say, having been at editor of Business 0:28:30.000 --> 0:28:32.320 Week for a while, worked at Bloomberg for ten years, 0:28:32.800 --> 0:28:35.960 it's just like this story makes you just want to 0:28:36.040 --> 0:28:39.720 get a bowl of popcorn. Uh, read the issue to 0:28:39.880 --> 0:28:42.520 make sense of everything that we've all lived through, and 0:28:42.560 --> 0:28:45.040 also just keep eating that popcorn to see what happens. 0:28:45.080 --> 0:28:48.680 Like I'm really deeply curious. And that was the curiosity 0:28:48.720 --> 0:28:53.560 that I think Matt infused UH into this story. And 0:28:53.920 --> 0:28:56.200 I mean, we're we're just honored to publish it. Matt. 0:28:56.240 --> 0:28:57.800 You should know. I tell you should know that in 0:28:57.800 --> 0:28:59.920 the news room, people have been hunting down for the issue. 0:29:00.000 --> 0:29:03.000 We typically have them. There's so much bitcoin you've got 0:29:03.040 --> 0:29:05.640 to give me. But I'm just telling you, everybody wants 0:29:05.640 --> 0:29:07.520 the issue to read, and it's like we've been like, 0:29:07.600 --> 0:29:10.320 do you have the issue? Do you have the issue? Um? Matt, 0:29:10.360 --> 0:29:12.280 thank you so much. I really mean it like I've 0:29:12.360 --> 0:29:14.680 learned so much and I think everybody who reads it does. 0:29:15.040 --> 0:29:17.000 It is called The Crypto Story, Your Guide to what 0:29:17.080 --> 0:29:19.000 it does, what it means, and why it still matters, 0:29:19.040 --> 0:29:23.080 Written by Bloomberg Opinions Matt Luvin. Check it out. As 0:29:23.080 --> 0:29:25.240 we said, it's the entire issue of Bloomberg Big Business 0:29:25.280 --> 0:29:28.480 Week magazine and our thanks to Jill Webber, editor of 0:29:28.520 --> 0:29:31.560 the magazine, who I guess it's something to do with small, 0:29:31.680 --> 0:29:35.880 small Matten and Pat get the most props. Well, Joel, 0:29:35.880 --> 0:29:37.640 thank you for joining us. Joel Ever, the editor of 0:29:37.640 --> 0:29:40.720 Bloomberg Business Week, with us in the Bloomberg Interactive Broker Studio. 0:29:40.960 --> 0:29:45.000 This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Masser and Bloomberg 0:29:45.080 --> 0:29:48.920 Quick Takes Tim Stinovic on Bloomberg Radio. All right, so, 0:29:48.960 --> 0:29:51.440 speaking of metal platforms, they talked an awful lot about 0:29:51.480 --> 0:29:54.440 the metaverse this week and continuing to spend money on it, 0:29:54.520 --> 0:29:56.680 and you know, our next guest has some real smart 0:29:56.720 --> 0:29:58.960 thoughts about it when it comes to shopping in the metaverse. 0:29:59.120 --> 0:30:01.400 We please have back with us, Nih has saying founder 0:30:01.440 --> 0:30:03.680 and a CEO of Obsess. It's a shop of a 0:30:03.920 --> 0:30:07.280 virtual store platform, and it offers consumers a way that 0:30:07.320 --> 0:30:10.160 they can shop and experience their products online and in 0:30:10.200 --> 0:30:11.959 the metaverse. Nia, good to have you back with us. 0:30:11.960 --> 0:30:14.520 How are you? Thank you so much for having me 0:30:14.560 --> 0:30:18.360 to encou So when we think about established brands in 0:30:18.400 --> 0:30:20.640 the metaverse, should we think about this as a way 0:30:20.680 --> 0:30:23.800 to kind of like the way that companies started offering 0:30:23.800 --> 0:30:27.320 their products online. You know, instead of sending you catalogs 0:30:27.600 --> 0:30:30.240 twenty years ago, you could go to you know, I 0:30:30.240 --> 0:30:32.960 don't know name the company Patagonia dot com and actually 0:30:33.040 --> 0:30:35.000 look at a jacket there is this. This is the 0:30:35.040 --> 0:30:39.080 same thing happening now in terms of the metaverse. Yes, 0:30:39.120 --> 0:30:41.880 absolutely so. The way, like you know, we define the 0:30:41.920 --> 0:30:44.840 metaverse is that it is the next generation of the Internet. 0:30:44.880 --> 0:30:48.600 Like if you think about their websites started in the nineties, right, 0:30:48.640 --> 0:30:50.840 they were very plain, they had mostly text, and then 0:30:50.840 --> 0:30:54.040 we added images, and then we added videos. Um and 0:30:54.120 --> 0:30:56.920 now with the hardware capabilities that are there in the 0:30:56.960 --> 0:30:59.600 market as well as our you know, network speeds pushing 0:30:59.600 --> 0:31:02.760 into I G and more, it's just possible to do 0:31:03.080 --> 0:31:08.280 much richer graphical interfaces online. And that's really what's leading 0:31:08.280 --> 0:31:10.320 to the metaverse, which is a three D version of 0:31:10.360 --> 0:31:13.800 the Internet. Um So, what you're seeing brands do now 0:31:14.080 --> 0:31:16.840 is that they're starting to create these more three D 0:31:16.920 --> 0:31:20.719 immersive experiences that are actually closer to the real world, right, 0:31:20.800 --> 0:31:23.040 because the real world is three D, it's all around us. 0:31:23.120 --> 0:31:25.040 We don't look at the real world in a database 0:31:25.120 --> 0:31:28.440 like we do most of online shopping today. Um So, 0:31:28.480 --> 0:31:30.840 it's just that technology is now getting to the point 0:31:30.880 --> 0:31:33.640 that that's possible, and that this is all happening on 0:31:33.720 --> 0:31:37.560 mobile devices and on desktop computers. You don't require like 0:31:37.760 --> 0:31:40.480 we are headsets and you know, to put goggles. It's 0:31:40.480 --> 0:31:42.640 all happening on the devices that you already have. I 0:31:42.640 --> 0:31:44.840 try to think where this could go. Yeah, And I 0:31:44.880 --> 0:31:48.320 think about, you know, could I essentially have a body 0:31:48.320 --> 0:31:51.320 scan of me so that there's an avatar that with 0:31:51.400 --> 0:31:54.400 my dimensions exactly, and I go to the metaverse and 0:31:54.400 --> 0:31:56.960 I go shopping at the mall or go shopping down 0:31:57.520 --> 0:31:59.880 you know street in New York City Pappatoo shops, and 0:32:00.000 --> 0:32:04.560 I can actually try on close with the right digital dimensions, 0:32:04.640 --> 0:32:07.520 and I can really get a feel of how things fit. Like, 0:32:07.680 --> 0:32:10.400 is there's something there that makes me want to do 0:32:10.440 --> 0:32:11.960 because I gotta tell you, I like living in the 0:32:11.960 --> 0:32:15.480 real life. So this idea of shopping, you know, I 0:32:15.800 --> 0:32:17.400 just can't get my head around it. So I'm trying 0:32:17.400 --> 0:32:20.680 to think, is there some super level that will get 0:32:20.800 --> 0:32:24.320 us there? Yeah, So two pass to that. First of all, 0:32:24.400 --> 0:32:27.520 what you described with you know, having kind of your 0:32:27.520 --> 0:32:32.120 avatar in the metavers and having your exact dimensions and 0:32:32.120 --> 0:32:35.640 trying on clothes, that's absolutely sort of the holy grail 0:32:35.800 --> 0:32:38.240 of the future of fashion shopping. We are not there 0:32:38.360 --> 0:32:41.000 yet in terms of having the full technology to be 0:32:41.320 --> 0:32:44.200 able to have that body scan easily or try on 0:32:44.280 --> 0:32:47.600 clothes easily, because not all brands have three D models 0:32:47.640 --> 0:32:50.360 of their products yet. But that is the direction that 0:32:50.400 --> 0:32:52.840 we are heading into. Um. But the second part I 0:32:52.880 --> 0:32:56.960 would say is like, think about the things that we 0:32:57.000 --> 0:32:59.560 are doing with brands in the metabors today is not 0:32:59.800 --> 0:33:02.880 like you are going into some other world and it's 0:33:02.920 --> 0:33:05.920 actually not that foreign. So it is really an improvement 0:33:06.160 --> 0:33:09.560 over two Day's online shopping interface, which is good for 0:33:10.040 --> 0:33:11.800 you know, if you want to if you know exactly 0:33:11.800 --> 0:33:14.120 what you want to buy, and you can search and 0:33:14.160 --> 0:33:16.480 filter and get to it and it's very efficient, right, 0:33:16.840 --> 0:33:19.400 But when you go shopping in real life and stores, 0:33:19.480 --> 0:33:22.120 there's a lot of discovery and you're almost like it's 0:33:22.120 --> 0:33:25.360 an entertainment experience because you're getting that inspiration from the 0:33:25.400 --> 0:33:28.880 brand and um, you know their stories. So yeah, it 0:33:28.920 --> 0:33:30.480 makes me sorry to interrupt it, It It makes me. It 0:33:30.680 --> 0:33:32.680 kind of reminds me of the way that we saw 0:33:33.400 --> 0:33:36.480 news transition from newspapers to online and the way that 0:33:36.560 --> 0:33:39.400 some people still really like to hold onto a newspaper, 0:33:40.080 --> 0:33:43.120 you know, on a Sunday, because they might actually see 0:33:43.800 --> 0:33:46.240 or encounter an article that they wouldn't necessarily click on 0:33:46.280 --> 0:33:49.000 if it were presented to them h on a web 0:33:49.040 --> 0:33:51.200 page for example, So how do you replicate that in 0:33:51.360 --> 0:33:55.440 the metaverse? Yeah, absolutely, So that's exactly what the brands 0:33:55.440 --> 0:33:57.239 that we are working with are doing, is that they 0:33:57.240 --> 0:34:00.840 are creating these UM virtual and I means that again, 0:34:00.960 --> 0:34:03.400 it's very easy for you to access. It's not like 0:34:03.480 --> 0:34:06.000 you're going into the metaborse and you don't have to 0:34:06.040 --> 0:34:08.600 become an amator if you don't want to. It's really 0:34:08.640 --> 0:34:12.480 a different interface for exploring products in which UM you know, 0:34:12.560 --> 0:34:15.560 you can discover things that you weren't necessarily like looking for. 0:34:15.719 --> 0:34:18.080 And we actually see that from the data, is that 0:34:18.160 --> 0:34:21.480 customers are buying more in these environments because similar to 0:34:21.520 --> 0:34:24.080 a retail store, you might just come across something that 0:34:24.120 --> 0:34:27.520 you weren't necessarily looking for, and it's ultimately a more 0:34:27.600 --> 0:34:31.200 intuitive shopping interface because while most brands come to us 0:34:31.239 --> 0:34:34.560 to target a younger audience who's super used to gaming right, 0:34:34.600 --> 0:34:37.440 and this interface is very similar to gaming UM in 0:34:37.560 --> 0:34:39.680 terms of moving to a three D environment. But then 0:34:39.680 --> 0:34:42.760 we also have customers that are high and luxury brands 0:34:42.800 --> 0:34:46.280 and their typical demographic is much older and they're seeing 0:34:46.560 --> 0:34:50.080 they're seeing great results because well, ultimately it's very intuitive. 0:34:50.160 --> 0:34:52.600 It's like, you know what you do in real life. Nia, 0:34:52.680 --> 0:34:53.920 We get a round, but we'll check in with you 0:34:54.000 --> 0:34:56.960 real soon. Nia, seeing founder and CEO of Obsessed, joining 0:34:57.040 --> 0:35:04.719 s via zoom from New York City and the Michael Jurnal. Yeah, 0:35:04.800 --> 0:35:06.799 but you let me drive. Oh no, no, no, no, 0:35:08.160 --> 0:35:16.320 honey leaved gravels. I want to drive. Its good question. 0:35:17.040 --> 0:35:26.520 Drive is the drive to the clothes on Bloomberg Radio. 0:35:27.200 --> 0:35:29.960 All right, everybuddy, we are getting ready to wrap up 0:35:30.000 --> 0:35:34.239 the last fully glow October trading, which is pretty remarkable. 0:35:34.280 --> 0:35:37.799 And look at the rally and we are yeah, oh yeah, 0:35:37.960 --> 0:35:40.560 November stress this week. I mean not on Monday, but right, 0:35:40.640 --> 0:35:43.839 thirty days has September full week. Yeah, so we still 0:35:43.840 --> 0:35:45.360 got one more Yeah, we got one more day of 0:35:45.400 --> 0:35:48.799 launch at the office. But look at the rally we 0:35:48.840 --> 0:35:51.880 had it. No, today is the last day. Yeah, okay, 0:35:52.080 --> 0:35:53.840 all right, we're kind of all over the place. But 0:35:53.880 --> 0:35:56.640 that's the kind of week it hasn't been. But as 0:35:56.680 --> 0:35:59.160 Charlie mentioned, stocks holding out of their dames. Let's get 0:35:59.160 --> 0:36:01.200 into it with Michael shell, An, executive director in chief 0:36:01.200 --> 0:36:03.839 at Messman officer at High Tower, r DM Financial Group 0:36:04.120 --> 0:36:06.759 joining us once again on the phone from Westport, Connecticut. Michael, 0:36:06.760 --> 0:36:08.359 good to have you back with us. How you doing, 0:36:08.880 --> 0:36:12.040 Thanks very much, pleasure to be here. So, UM, are 0:36:12.040 --> 0:36:15.520 we out of the woods? Well? This week has certainly 0:36:15.520 --> 0:36:17.719 been an impressive rally. UM. I think you have to 0:36:17.719 --> 0:36:20.240 sort of step back a little bit. The markets bottom 0:36:20.440 --> 0:36:22.799 around October thirteenth or so, so this is sort of 0:36:22.800 --> 0:36:25.880 the fourth multi week rally that we've had in this 0:36:25.920 --> 0:36:29.120 bear market that started back in January, and when the 0:36:29.200 --> 0:36:33.280 markets hit their lows October, I think sentiment was really 0:36:33.320 --> 0:36:37.000 pretty negative and a couple other things have contributed. Recently, 0:36:37.000 --> 0:36:38.719 There's been a little bit of a pullback in the dollar, 0:36:38.800 --> 0:36:41.960 which has been super strong this year, and interest rates 0:36:41.960 --> 0:36:43.760 have started to pull back a little bit as well. 0:36:44.280 --> 0:36:47.080 So next week will be really interesting because the Fed 0:36:47.120 --> 0:36:49.840 meets October sorry November one and second, and there's a 0:36:49.840 --> 0:36:52.600 lot of anticipation of what they will or won't say 0:36:52.640 --> 0:36:55.960 and whether they'll start to make their shift. But this 0:36:56.040 --> 0:36:59.879 has certainly been an impressive rally so far. UM. One 0:37:00.040 --> 0:37:03.040 thing just to mention is that the TAO, interestingly after 0:37:03.080 --> 0:37:05.560 today is the first of the major indices to move 0:37:05.600 --> 0:37:08.839 back above their key two day moving averages. So that's 0:37:08.840 --> 0:37:11.879 something a lot of investors watched, separating a longer term 0:37:11.960 --> 0:37:14.480 rally versus a short term rally. None of the other 0:37:14.520 --> 0:37:16.799 major markets have done that, but that's certainly something to 0:37:16.800 --> 0:37:22.080 to monitor going forward. So sorry, Carol, So we could 0:37:22.080 --> 0:37:23.120 be out of the woods when it comes to the 0:37:23.160 --> 0:37:25.520 Dow because that technical, but proceed with caution. I mean, 0:37:25.520 --> 0:37:28.520 what's the takeaway there? Well, I think it's certainly an 0:37:28.560 --> 0:37:31.560 encouraging sign when the markets, when the different industries move 0:37:31.560 --> 0:37:35.520 above the moving average. Historically, at least, that helps separate 0:37:35.800 --> 0:37:38.680 a short term move from a longer term, more sustainable move. 0:37:39.120 --> 0:37:40.719 But I think in terms of whether we're out of 0:37:40.760 --> 0:37:43.080 the woods, I think it's a little, certainly, in our opinion, 0:37:43.120 --> 0:37:45.279 a little bit too early to say that. If you 0:37:45.320 --> 0:37:47.440 look at some of the economic data, and I think 0:37:47.480 --> 0:37:49.680 it's really important to keep an eye in the consumer, 0:37:49.719 --> 0:37:52.840 for example, because that represents two thirds of the economy. 0:37:53.000 --> 0:37:55.400 So on the positive side, looking at the consumer, uh, 0:37:55.560 --> 0:37:58.799 you have the lowest unemployment since nine and you have 0:37:58.840 --> 0:38:02.080 wages growing at five scent, but that's being offset by 0:38:02.160 --> 0:38:05.600 higher inflation and rising rates, which are affecting the equity 0:38:05.640 --> 0:38:09.680 and housing market. So the consumer appears to be pretty resilient, 0:38:09.760 --> 0:38:12.080 and you know, that sort of fits in with whether 0:38:12.120 --> 0:38:14.640 we're in a recession or going into a recession, and 0:38:14.719 --> 0:38:17.920 so I think there's still some uncertainty about that and 0:38:17.960 --> 0:38:20.360 what the said will be doing at their next meeting. 0:38:20.600 --> 0:38:22.160 It's funny too that you mentioned the DOW. I mean, 0:38:22.200 --> 0:38:24.000 I think I feel like we live in a world 0:38:24.040 --> 0:38:27.480 where people kind of blow the towel to the side 0:38:27.600 --> 0:38:29.440 and think about, Okay, what's the SMP doing, what's the 0:38:29.480 --> 0:38:32.879 NAZAC one hundred doing. Um, So, how do you kind 0:38:32.920 --> 0:38:36.520 of factor and what's going on with the doubt of 0:38:36.600 --> 0:38:39.160 it back above its technical move, you know, above its 0:38:39.200 --> 0:38:42.000 two day Michael, versus what we're seeing on the SMP 0:38:42.160 --> 0:38:44.880 and the NAZAC, which is much more representative of a 0:38:44.960 --> 0:38:47.440 broader part of the market. Yeah, that's a great question. 0:38:47.480 --> 0:38:49.960 And if you're in the financial markets like we are 0:38:50.040 --> 0:38:54.080 every day, most investors follow, most individual investors follow the doubt. 0:38:54.120 --> 0:38:56.279 That's what gets all the headlines you see live on 0:38:56.320 --> 0:38:59.800 the newspapers and on the news. But people follow the 0:38:59.840 --> 0:39:02.000 mark gets on a regular basis, really follow the s 0:39:02.040 --> 0:39:04.680 and P five hundred and one of the things we're seeing, 0:39:04.680 --> 0:39:07.160 which is really interesting, is I think you're starting to 0:39:07.160 --> 0:39:09.880 see in the past couple of weeks a shift, a 0:39:09.960 --> 0:39:13.040 shift unfortunately out of technology, which has been the market 0:39:13.120 --> 0:39:15.480 leader from much of the past decade or so. And 0:39:15.520 --> 0:39:19.000 the shift is out of out of technology stocks. We 0:39:19.080 --> 0:39:21.600 already started to see some of the money losing high 0:39:21.680 --> 0:39:25.360 valuation stocks get hits starting in two thowy one, but 0:39:25.480 --> 0:39:28.040 the shift is For example, if you look at the 0:39:28.120 --> 0:39:31.439 equal weighted S and P five hundred this week, that's 0:39:31.520 --> 0:39:35.200 up about five point four, while the sm P five hundred, 0:39:35.200 --> 0:39:38.160 which is market cap weighted, is up just three nine. 0:39:38.880 --> 0:39:41.240 So not a big difference, and it's only this week, 0:39:41.920 --> 0:39:44.040 but I think that's an interesting trend that will have 0:39:44.080 --> 0:39:46.239 to watch heading into the end of this year and 0:39:46.320 --> 0:39:48.960 next year. Can I just look, you know, it's funny. 0:39:49.000 --> 0:39:51.000 I was just kind of picking apart the marketer as 0:39:51.040 --> 0:39:54.560 you're talking. Industrials are up almost seven percent this week. 0:39:54.640 --> 0:40:00.440 Utilities are up, yeah, I mean real estate, finance souls. 0:40:00.520 --> 0:40:03.040 I mean, most of the ten of the eleven major 0:40:03.080 --> 0:40:05.879 industry groups in the SP five are higher. But it's 0:40:06.080 --> 0:40:10.560 consumer staples, financials, real estate, utilities, industrials at the top. 0:40:11.160 --> 0:40:14.200 Um what does that tell you, Michael Well, I think 0:40:14.200 --> 0:40:17.000 it's sort of a mixed bag. Industrials have been approving recently, 0:40:17.040 --> 0:40:19.520 We've seen some better relative strength than some of those stocks. 0:40:19.880 --> 0:40:23.160 I think investors are still trying to figure out if 0:40:23.160 --> 0:40:25.480 we're going to be going into a recession or not, 0:40:25.960 --> 0:40:27.400 and if we are in a recession, is it going 0:40:27.440 --> 0:40:29.600 to be a mild recession, which to us seems like 0:40:29.640 --> 0:40:32.399 the most likely scenario because you don't have the kind 0:40:32.400 --> 0:40:35.520 of major imbalances this time around that you did, for example, 0:40:35.520 --> 0:40:39.160 in the banks going into two thousand eight. UM consumers generally, 0:40:39.440 --> 0:40:42.680 although consumers the household savings rate is down to I 0:40:42.719 --> 0:40:46.759 think about three point four percent, households in general don't 0:40:46.800 --> 0:40:50.600 seem to be UM. Household savings in general seem to 0:40:50.640 --> 0:40:54.200 be okay. Household balance sheets seemed to be okay. UM. 0:40:54.280 --> 0:40:56.160 The one thing that we're starting to watch is housing 0:40:56.200 --> 0:40:58.360 is starting to come down, and that's interest sensitive, so 0:40:58.440 --> 0:41:02.560 that makes sense. But in terms of the sectors UM. 0:41:02.640 --> 0:41:04.520 One of the other things to watch, for example, is 0:41:04.560 --> 0:41:06.560 small caps, which has done well, and that's sort of 0:41:06.960 --> 0:41:09.120 small caps would do better if we're coming out of 0:41:09.120 --> 0:41:11.919 a recession, and it's sort of more speculation and people 0:41:11.920 --> 0:41:14.759 are more optimistic. So I think it's too early to 0:41:14.800 --> 0:41:18.400 sound the all clear, and it'll be interesting, especially to 0:41:18.440 --> 0:41:20.680 see what the Fed says next week and what the 0:41:20.680 --> 0:41:23.879 employment numbers come out as next week as well's week 0:41:23.920 --> 0:41:26.759 next week. Yeah, do you expect the Fed to, I 0:41:26.800 --> 0:41:28.719 don't know, give us some sort of guidance that they're 0:41:28.760 --> 0:41:33.120 still looking at that they're considering basis points for December, Well, 0:41:33.160 --> 0:41:35.319 I think it's I think seventy five basis points for 0:41:35.560 --> 0:41:38.000 November is pretty much baked in the cake. But I 0:41:38.000 --> 0:41:40.360 think for December that's an interesting that will be a 0:41:40.360 --> 0:41:43.040 more interesting meeting. For this meeting, we don't have the 0:41:43.080 --> 0:41:45.239 inflation data in front of us. We had already the 0:41:45.239 --> 0:41:48.760 inflation data that came out today. For example, the feds 0:41:48.840 --> 0:41:53.480 favorite core PC index actually rose month over month to 0:41:53.680 --> 0:41:56.080 five point one pc, which is the highest level since 0:41:56.120 --> 0:41:58.399 I think back in March when it was five point 0:41:58.440 --> 0:42:01.120 four p But it the FED me eating next next 0:42:01.160 --> 0:42:03.239 week or in two weeks, I think the keys to 0:42:03.320 --> 0:42:06.160 watch will be one, Uh, does the Fed say we're 0:42:06.160 --> 0:42:09.360 making progress on inflation, which would be a signal that 0:42:09.480 --> 0:42:12.239 they're shift starting to shift policy, Or two do they 0:42:12.280 --> 0:42:15.680 say that inflation remains higher than we'd like, which continues 0:42:15.719 --> 0:42:18.319 to be the party line in recent weeks and will 0:42:18.360 --> 0:42:22.120 probably indicate a seventy five basis point hike in December 0:42:22.160 --> 0:42:24.040 may be more likely. All Right, we're gonna leave it 0:42:24.040 --> 0:42:26.439 on that, hey, Michael, have a great weekend. Um, Thank 0:42:26.480 --> 0:42:29.840 you so much, really appreciate it. Michael Sheldon, executive director 0:42:29.840 --> 0:42:33.200 and chief investment Officer at High Tower r DM Financial Group, 0:42:33.239 --> 0:42:35.799 based in Westport, and that's where we found him on 0:42:35.840 --> 0:42:39.760 the phone on this Friday. Thanks for listening to Bloomberg 0:42:39.800 --> 0:42:43.440 Business Week. Download the podcast on iTunes, SoundCloud, or Bloomberg 0:42:43.520 --> 0:42:45.359 dot com, and you can also listen to our radio 0:42:45.400 --> 0:42:47.960 show at two pm Eastern on Bloomberg Radio or watch 0:42:48.080 --> 0:42:50.440 us on YouTube. Search to Bloomberg Global News.