Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Business Week. I'm Carol Masser and I'm
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Quick Takes Tim Stanovk. We're here every day bringing
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Speaker 1: YouTube search Bloomberg Global News Amazon, which, as you know,
Speaker 1: as we've been reporting shocking Wall Street projecting the slowest
Speaker 1: holiday growth quarter in the company's history. We've seen the
Speaker 1: stock plunge big time last night and the trade carrying
Speaker 1: over into the regular day. Today. Amazade's mark market value
Speaker 1: set to fall below a trillion dollars after its disappointing
Speaker 1: earnings report. So let's get to it with our own
Speaker 1: Matt Day, Matt Day's technology reporter for Bloomberg News, who
Speaker 1: joins us via zoom from Seattle. Matt, you've had close
Speaker 1: to twenty four hours to dig into this to report
Speaker 1: on this the slowest ever growth for the company's holiday quarter.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's the part that really sticks out to me.
Speaker 1: What is it? Is this more of an Amazon story?
Speaker 1: Is it more of an economy story? I think it's both.
Speaker 1: Amazon has been trying to rein in costs all year.
Speaker 1: The last report show they didn't really do that, and
Speaker 1: I think it would be of a analyst this morning.
Speaker 1: I think it was who sounded the alarm and said, listen,
Speaker 1: if Amazon is projecting this week holiday quarter into the
Speaker 1: can row as lowest two, then we might already be intercession.
Speaker 1: Um that that on its own as an indication that,
Speaker 1: you know, it's not just an Amazon story with something
Speaker 1: going wrong in the wider economy. Having said that, what
Speaker 1: are though, the Amazon specific issues, Because there are some, right,
Speaker 1: Oh there are. Yeah. They when the pandemic hit and
Speaker 1: everybody you know went home and started shopping online for
Speaker 1: for everything by choice or by need, Amazon started spending
Speaker 1: huge new warehouses. You know, they were still building new
Speaker 1: data centers for their cloud computing business, and that worked
Speaker 1: out for you know, called eighteen months late last year,
Speaker 1: when demand started to dry up, they realized they had
Speaker 1: way too much based way too many people, and so
Speaker 1: they've been in cost cutting mode basically all year long. UM.
Speaker 1: We've seen recently that spread to their corporate ranks as well.
Speaker 1: They're starting to wind down some of their marginal products,
Speaker 1: stuff that they didn't think was going to make it big.
Speaker 1: They shut down their telehealth service. UM. So there's still
Speaker 1: you know, investing for the long term as Amazon like
Speaker 1: Sterm mind folks, but they definitely overbuilt based on what
Speaker 1: they saw in What about that profit engine known as
Speaker 1: Amazon Web Services a WS. What did we learned about
Speaker 1: the company in terms of how cloud growth is doing,
Speaker 1: especially in the context of what Microsoft reported earlier this
Speaker 1: week as Microsoft given warning and Amazon gave maybe even
Speaker 1: bigger one. Growth is great for a business that prints money,
Speaker 1: but um, it is the lowest ever since Amazon began
Speaker 1: breaking out aws back in One worrying thing for analysts
Speaker 1: on the call yesterday now, Amazon CFO said that some
Speaker 1: customers were asking for help cutting their bills. Um, and
Speaker 1: some pretty dour chatter about what businesses we're doing with
Speaker 1: cloud spending. We didn't hear much of that at all.
Speaker 1: During the pandemic. Cloud spending held up really well. So
Speaker 1: I suggest that this is something new for awus. Wait,
Speaker 1: am I crazy and thinking that we could be talking
Speaker 1: about Microsoft right now? Didn't Microsoft essentially say the exact
Speaker 1: same thing. Yeah, exactly right. And that's enough enough to
Speaker 1: compound to worry about a business that you know, people
Speaker 1: have been saying it's going to grow forever and throwing
Speaker 1: out a bunch of ludicrous figures on exactly how profit
Speaker 1: is going to be for Microsoft and Amazon. Amazon said
Speaker 1: they started seeing a lot of softness and their enterprise
Speaker 1: customers in the second half the third quarter, and then
Speaker 1: it's continued this this quarter. You know it's interesting too,
Speaker 1: And I know you wrote and reported earlier that you know,
Speaker 1: we did see actually shares of Amazon and the market
Speaker 1: capt go below a trillion. Amazon shares they're trading definitely
Speaker 1: off their worst levels of this session. In fact, it's
Speaker 1: just the biggest drop since Mayo. So it's not like
Speaker 1: we haven't seen it in years. If you will, um, so,
Speaker 1: how do you I don't know, how do we spend
Speaker 1: this forward? Matt? How do we need to be thinking
Speaker 1: about this? Because I gotta say, I keep saying to
Speaker 1: Tim all week, you know my world is I'm ordering
Speaker 1: on Amazon, I'm watching Amazon Prime. I use lots of
Speaker 1: Apple products and I Google everything, so like that's my world.
Speaker 1: So these three companies, you know, and Amazon and particularly
Speaker 1: so entrenched in our worlds, are many of our worlds.
Speaker 1: Long term, Amazon is probably gonna be fine. They're not
Speaker 1: gonna go out of business. You know, some analysts this morning,
Speaker 1: are you trying to calm that drop we saw after
Speaker 1: hours last night? You've seen it. It bounts this morning.
Speaker 1: As you said, Um, They're advertising business is still growing.
Speaker 1: They're probably still going to take share there because they're
Speaker 1: just so close to people's wallets. Right. You know, Google
Speaker 1: and Facebook have an idea what you buy. Amazon knows
Speaker 1: exactly what you buy. So their ad business is still
Speaker 1: a bright spot form cloud growth. Even if it's only
Speaker 1: that's still a very lucrative business that's got a long
Speaker 1: way to goo. Um, the long term outlook is is
Speaker 1: okay for them as long as they can get their
Speaker 1: costs under control. Where analysts most bullish when it comes
Speaker 1: to what Amazon can do, is it that ad business
Speaker 1: because I don't know, I mean, do Apple's I d
Speaker 1: f A changes affect that it doesn't seem like it's
Speaker 1: a similar type of ad business because people you know,
Speaker 1: are going there searching for what to buy, and then
Speaker 1: they buy the product that they search for. Yeah, exactly,
Speaker 1: definitely a different story than than kind of the the
Speaker 1: gut punch to Facebook that that change was ads is
Speaker 1: is definitely spot People are real optimistic about cloud is too.
Speaker 1: I mean, you've seen Amazon trade much more like a
Speaker 1: tech stock than a retail stock in the last really
Speaker 1: since they reported AWS results for the first time in
Speaker 1: so clouds and other obvious area where people are really
Speaker 1: I think in the long term, people still think that,
Speaker 1: you know, their retail business can show profits more than
Speaker 1: a half historically, right, Let's get right, Matt, is there
Speaker 1: at some point we look at these companies that you know,
Speaker 1: I mean Amazon for a long time, right, we were
Speaker 1: just waiting for it to turn a profit, and there's
Speaker 1: a lot of investing, and finally it did. But at
Speaker 1: some point what we consider maybe growth companies, all of
Speaker 1: a sudden, they still grow, they just don't grow at
Speaker 1: the dramatic rates. They become these behemoths, you know, in
Speaker 1: their industry, and moving the needle gets harder and harder.
Speaker 1: Is that fair to say or maybe not? I think
Speaker 1: it's definitely something worth watching for Amazon now, like have
Speaker 1: we hit peak? Amazon was kind of the crazy growth
Speaker 1: we saw are in pandemic? Enought to call it and say, listen,
Speaker 1: this might be a different company now. One of the
Speaker 1: signs of that yesterday analysts were asking on the conference
Speaker 1: call after earnings when Amazon might stop investing in new
Speaker 1: data centers. That is that is a crazy bit of
Speaker 1: costume and the suggestion that they should slow down growth
Speaker 1: on you know, it's thought to be a potential trillion
Speaker 1: dollar market opportunity, right, Um, yeah, definitely some some caution
Speaker 1: out there, right everything, And I think about what Mike
Speaker 1: McKee talked about, like was it some distribution facilities that
Speaker 1: it was in the latest growth data that you're not
Speaker 1: seeing as much of it as happening, So you do
Speaker 1: wonder about this, right the retrenchment. Hey, Matt Day, thank
Speaker 1: you so much. Matt is technology reporter at Bloomberg News.
Speaker 1: Joining us via zoom from Seattle. You're listening to Bloomberg
Speaker 1: Business Week with Carol Messer and Bloomberg Quick Takes Tim
Speaker 1: Stinovic on Bloomberg Radio. For just the second time ever,
Speaker 1: an entire issue of Bloomberg Business Week magazine is dedicated
Speaker 1: to a single topic from a single writer. You might
Speaker 1: recall Paul Ford's what is Code? That was the first. Well,
Speaker 1: this time around it is Bloomberg Opinions Matt Levin giving
Speaker 1: us forty thou words on digital assets, a primer on
Speaker 1: the innovation that could forever change the way we transact
Speaker 1: and how we view the world of finance. It is
Speaker 1: called the Crypto Story, Your guide to what it does,
Speaker 1: what it means, and why it still matters. Matt, as
Speaker 1: you know, covers finance. He was an editor of deal Breaker,
Speaker 1: an investment banker at Goldman, Sachs and m and a
Speaker 1: lawyer at Wachtell Lipton, a clerk for the U S
Speaker 1: Court of Appeals for the Third Circuit. He joins us
Speaker 1: via zoom from New York City, and he joins us
Speaker 1: along with the editor of Bloomberg Business Week magazine, Joel
Speaker 1: whoever he is in our interactive broker studio. So, UM,
Speaker 1: we want to get to Matt, but tell us a
Speaker 1: little bit about how this all came to be UM
Speaker 1: So earlier UM in the year. Over the summer UM,
Speaker 1: we started watching Crypto Winter unfold and we started to
Speaker 1: have several conversations that led to a big conversation where
Speaker 1: it was like, Hey, what are all the various things
Speaker 1: we want to try and put in motion? Um, sooner
Speaker 1: rather than later. And out of that little huddle UM
Speaker 1: on the afternoon of June. Uh. In the middle of
Speaker 1: that meeting, actually, um, the number one thing that everybody
Speaker 1: wanted was how do we get Matt Levin to write
Speaker 1: something about crypto? And so I wrote in the middle
Speaker 1: of that meeting this note, Hey there to Matt, Hey,
Speaker 1: there any chance you'd like to write like twenty words
Speaker 1: for us sometime this summer. I could go approximately eighteen
Speaker 1: thousand words shorter or longer as you prefer. And built
Speaker 1: into that was this insurance policy that maybe if I
Speaker 1: couldn't get twenty or forty or sixty, like, maybe I
Speaker 1: could get two thousand um. Uh. And And it took
Speaker 1: him about a week to reply um. And in typical
Speaker 1: uh Matt fashion, he said, UM, I have not replied
Speaker 1: to this, sorry because there is some chance like it
Speaker 1: feels like a bad idea, but I kind of want
Speaker 1: to what were you thinking? Um? Uh. So that that
Speaker 1: flirting led to where we are now. We have this
Speaker 1: amazing issue, UM, which is totally just a testament uh
Speaker 1: to Matt and um, he and I were talking earlier
Speaker 1: this week with look, we all a doormat, we love
Speaker 1: his newsletter, we love money stuff. His Elon coverage has
Speaker 1: been sensational, and um, you know, had had any of
Speaker 1: this madness with Elon transpired any sooner, I don't think
Speaker 1: Matt would have actually done this. So so thank you
Speaker 1: for you know, um uh, you know, not having that chaos.
Speaker 1: But Matt, what was the thing when when we started flirting?
Speaker 1: What was the thing that you felt was the spark
Speaker 1: that want you made you want to do this? Uh?
Speaker 1: I mean the thing that I really wanted to do
Speaker 1: is that, you know, crypto feels like a big enough
Speaker 1: subject that it could support an entire magazine issue, but
Speaker 1: it's also like a small enough subject that it feels
Speaker 1: like like one person could almost get their mind around
Speaker 1: all of it and then like type sequentially an explanation
Speaker 1: of all of it. So you can sort of start
Speaker 1: from the first principles and there's like a real obvious
Speaker 1: starting point where the Stosia knocking about a bitcoin white
Speaker 1: paper is like, hey, I've got this idea for crypto,
Speaker 1: and then everything more or less comes out of that,
Speaker 1: So you can kind of start from the beginning and
Speaker 1: build from the basic concepts up to all of the
Speaker 1: complicated stuff that exists today. And that just seemed like
Speaker 1: a really fun ellens to try to uh cover everything.
Speaker 1: And of course in the end, long though it is,
Speaker 1: it doesn't cover everything, but like it felt like a
Speaker 1: good thing to try. Um So the title, um, it
Speaker 1: started as me saying, um, what what is crypto? Which
Speaker 1: you know, was loosely inspired by the Paul Ford thing.
Speaker 1: That was the closest approximation that I could come up with. Um,
Speaker 1: what was your title, Matt? And and why uh, I
Speaker 1: wouldn't say I had a title. I had a working title,
Speaker 1: joking working title, which was what was crypto? Because we
Speaker 1: were sort of joking about the fact that that in
Speaker 1: some ways, you know, it feels a little silly to
Speaker 1: do this during crypto winter, although actually I think that
Speaker 1: ended up being helpful because you're not kind of covering
Speaker 1: the market moves at the moment, but you know, you're
Speaker 1: kind of taking a step back and looking at the
Speaker 1: sort of broad sweep of crypto. What's kind of cool.
Speaker 1: As I have to say, Matt um loved it. I've
Speaker 1: read it. I've had to read read things a couple
Speaker 1: of times because I feel like though for the first time,
Speaker 1: I understand so much of crypto, and I realized how
Speaker 1: many things I probably was either using terminology wrong and
Speaker 1: I just didn't have an understanding. So thank you for that, um,
Speaker 1: And I do think in terms of crypto, love it,
Speaker 1: hate it you right, In the past fourteen years, crypto
Speaker 1: has built a whole financial system from scratch. Whether it
Speaker 1: works or not, that's kind of cool, isn't it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean I like, you know, as I say in
Speaker 1: the piece, I come to this from finance, and ah,
Speaker 1: my interest is not so much I'm like, wh're re
Speaker 1: engineering the internet in society. My interest is, like they
Speaker 1: do cool financial stuff. And I think that for me,
Speaker 1: watching crypto has been fascinating because it's a mix of
Speaker 1: like very clever essentially financial engineers and like engineer engineers
Speaker 1: who are who are looking at the problems of existing
Speaker 1: finance and saying we have a better idea, but also
Speaker 1: watching people who sort of like our twenty three and
Speaker 1: like now to program a computer and like I've never
Speaker 1: heard of the two financial crisis and are like just
Speaker 1: doing it all over again and making the same mistakes
Speaker 1: and kind of hilarious fashion. So you get you get both, right,
Speaker 1: you get like real like clever financial innovations and also
Speaker 1: like disasters you can see coming a mile away. So
Speaker 1: let's talk about some the financial innovations before we talk
Speaker 1: about some of the disasters. To what extent have you
Speaker 1: seen the financial innovations actually make their way into the
Speaker 1: traditional finance system if at all, uh, not too much.
Speaker 1: You know, you see banks announcing we're going to do
Speaker 1: a blockchain project, right and like any time to make
Speaker 1: fun of that. I got an email from someone at
Speaker 1: a bank being like, well, we actually deployed a test
Speaker 1: example of our blockchain products. But in general, like I
Speaker 1: don't think that you know, the innovations of decentralized finance
Speaker 1: have come to a stock exchange near you. But what
Speaker 1: you have seen is people from traditional finance leaving to
Speaker 1: go to crypto now. That was largely feature of the
Speaker 1: crypto bullmarket, and some of them are kind of creeping
Speaker 1: back to traditional finance now. But I do think it
Speaker 1: was also a testament like the interestingness of that where
Speaker 1: like if you felt like you were uh you wanted
Speaker 1: to build stuff in finance where you wanted to like
Speaker 1: kind of you know, you saw a problem in the
Speaker 1: existing infrastructure and you wanted to make something different. The
Speaker 1: place where that was easiest to do, where you had
Speaker 1: the blankest canvas, was in crypto, and so a lot
Speaker 1: of smart people did leave their you know, hedge fund
Speaker 1: or high frequency trading jobs to trade crypto instead. So
Speaker 1: it's not so much that crypto took over traditional finance,
Speaker 1: but that you know, kind of hired away from it. Okay,
Speaker 1: So the first time I got to read the draft
Speaker 1: was in early August, and pat Rickner, who's uh the
Speaker 1: story editor, actually cracked it before I could get to it. Um,
Speaker 1: but he immediately flagged what was the first line? And
Speaker 1: I think it has not changed since you filed it.
Speaker 1: And the first line is modern life consists in large
Speaker 1: part of entries in databases. And what was magical to
Speaker 1: me about that was that we're gonna we're gonna end
Speaker 1: up with the story for words about crypto, and you
Speaker 1: don't start there, you start somewhere else. And can you
Speaker 1: can you share how that, how that line came to
Speaker 1: you and why you thought that was the perfect place
Speaker 1: to begin. Well, I think that you if you're going
Speaker 1: to take crypto seriously, you have to sort of start with,
Speaker 1: like what problem is it meant to solve? Like what
Speaker 1: like like in some ways, you know, I said, I
Speaker 1: want to start at the beginning and go to the end,
Speaker 1: but you have to start before the beginning, right, you
Speaker 1: have to start with like what is Satsia Nakamoto sitting
Speaker 1: around thinking about in two thousand seven, then inspires him
Speaker 1: to write the Bitcoin white paper? Right, like why have crypto?
Speaker 1: And I think that the answer has to do with,
Speaker 1: like one, the sort of computerization of the world where
Speaker 1: it's like easier and easier to kind of see that
Speaker 1: so much of life consists of data structures. And then
Speaker 1: also with this breakdown and trust where you know, as
Speaker 1: I say, like the world consists of a lot of
Speaker 1: entries and databases, and you have like real pressure on
Speaker 1: trusting the keepers of the databases. Right, you have real
Speaker 1: worries about you know, two thight you had real worries
Speaker 1: about banks. And that's like the sort of like immediate
Speaker 1: impetus for a bitcoin. Right. You don't trust the bank
Speaker 1: to keep a record of your money, not so much
Speaker 1: because they're not trustworthy of doing that, but because you
Speaker 1: sort of don't trust them generally, where you don't trust
Speaker 1: the system. You know, you don't trust the regulation um,
Speaker 1: and that kind of ramifies into a lot of other
Speaker 1: places where you don't want to rely on some single party.
Speaker 1: You don't want to rely on Facebook to kind of
Speaker 1: keep track of the social graph and so ah, that
Speaker 1: I think is like kind of the spark for for
Speaker 1: for crypto many ways, is like is saying, like, you know,
Speaker 1: if we come with a better way to keep a
Speaker 1: database that doesn't rely on trusting centralized parties, then that's good.
Speaker 1: And that's a that's kind of you know, I wanted
Speaker 1: to start with, like what motivates this rather than like,
Speaker 1: you know, well, I have to say, like this whole
Speaker 1: idea of trust. I love how you kind of wove
Speaker 1: it through everything, right, Like I throw money in a
Speaker 1: bank I expected to be there. I invest money in
Speaker 1: my four O one Kay, I expected to be there.
Speaker 1: Isn't really working this year. But I mean it's like
Speaker 1: digital right, Like I don't I have no interaction with
Speaker 1: the people who are really you know, covering it for me.
Speaker 1: There's so much trust when it comes to crypto. I
Speaker 1: keep thinking about, like who are these people? Why should
Speaker 1: we trust them? Ultimately? And I understand that if the
Speaker 1: system doesn't work, then nobody's going to be wanting to
Speaker 1: participate in it. But I feel like we still don't
Speaker 1: know these people, you know what I mean, that are
Speaker 1: behind it. How do you feel about it having kind
Speaker 1: of broken it down, Well, you don't know that, you know,
Speaker 1: Like maybe you do, but I don't know Jamy time right,
Speaker 1: like uh like like like another reason I wanted to
Speaker 1: start there is like to convey like just like the
Speaker 1: strangeness of trust in our everyday life that is sort
Speaker 1: of like, you know, I wanted to de familiarize that
Speaker 1: a little bit and be like, look, your whole life
Speaker 1: is databases and you trust the people who keep them,
Speaker 1: and like you don't think about it, right, because like
Speaker 1: that's just true in the world, and like you have
Speaker 1: to like think of the reasons why you trust the
Speaker 1: keepers of databases. And some large part of that is
Speaker 1: like there's this regulatory structure where like we sort of
Speaker 1: trust the government not to let people do crimes with
Speaker 1: our money, you know, And then other parts of it
Speaker 1: are like relying on market incentives where like you know,
Speaker 1: you can kind of like look at a company and
Speaker 1: be like, well, if this company was stealing people's money.
Speaker 1: It probably wouldn't be advertising on the subway because people
Speaker 1: would stop giving it their money. You know, you're sort
Speaker 1: of like relying on other people to kind of do
Speaker 1: the investigation for you. Uh And and in crypto, you know,
Speaker 1: like it's the same sort of basic set of things,
Speaker 1: but the mix is different. Right. So in crypto there's
Speaker 1: you know, round numbers. There's no government regulation, right, I
Speaker 1: mean there's actually a lot there's a lot of people
Speaker 1: doing a lot of things to regulate crypto. But like
Speaker 1: any given project that you look at in crypto, there's
Speaker 1: some chance that no regulator has thought about it, right,
Speaker 1: and they've certainly not like approved it, And certainly there's
Speaker 1: not legislation being like here's the steps you need to
Speaker 1: take to become a stable client in the US, right,
Speaker 1: I mean, like there's perspective legislation, but there's not there's
Speaker 1: not like a real kind of like working regulatory framework.
Speaker 1: And so you know, in much of the bunch of
Speaker 1: our lives, we trust, you know, people because there is
Speaker 1: a regulatory structure around them, and here there isn't. And
Speaker 1: that's weird and in many cases makes things less trustworthy.
Speaker 1: And so we saw in the crypto meltdown, a lot
Speaker 1: of like customer facasing brokerage is you know, kind of
Speaker 1: like lost their customers money because they didn't they were
Speaker 1: sort of doing very levered trades without telling anyone about it. Um,
Speaker 1: there's the market incentives thing, which in crypto is a
Speaker 1: big deal, right, Like you sort of go around thinking, well,
Speaker 1: if this is a big crypto exchange, it's probably be
Speaker 1: trustworthy because everyone else is trusting it, right, And that
Speaker 1: as a heuristic that's not terrible, but it has you know,
Speaker 1: in the past, the biggest bitcoin exchange at the time
Speaker 1: was blown up. So it's not a perfect heuristic by
Speaker 1: any means, nor is it in traditional finance, right big
Speaker 1: banks have blown up. Um. And then the third thing
Speaker 1: in crypto is like there is this notion that like
Speaker 1: not in all of crypto, but in lots of crypto,
Speaker 1: and like in like the core of bitcoin and in
Speaker 1: like decentralized finance, there is this notion that you can
Speaker 1: look at the code yourself, that everything is verifiable yourself.
Speaker 1: You can look at the codesea it works. You can
Speaker 1: look at the ledger of transactions, the blockchain and prove
Speaker 1: that every transaction is correct, and so you said you
Speaker 1: don't have to trust. You can verify everything without trusting it.
Speaker 1: In practice, you're not doing that because it would take forever,
Speaker 1: but you are, Ah, you're sort of trusting the fact
Speaker 1: that you could do that rapification, so you have you
Speaker 1: don't have to have as much trust in individuals. But
Speaker 1: that's not like the only thing in crypto. I mean,
Speaker 1: the crypto evangelists will talk about that being like the
Speaker 1: trustless nature of crypto, but obviously, like day to day,
Speaker 1: a lot of stuff in crypto involves trusting you know,
Speaker 1: companies and like individuals with your crypto, and often those
Speaker 1: people turn out not to be trust really. Yeah, we
Speaker 1: could do an entire program on talking about, you know,
Speaker 1: the history of crypto and the grifters or alleged grifters. Colorful,
Speaker 1: colorful characters exactly. We're speaking with Matt Lavin. He's a
Speaker 1: columnist for Bloomberg Opinion. He is the story is The
Speaker 1: story is his in a Bloomberg Business Week magazine this week.
Speaker 1: If you haven't read it yet, I think you're the
Speaker 1: only one. Uh, it is on the Bloomberg terminal. It's
Speaker 1: a lot of words to get through. Okay, if you
Speaker 1: haven't started reading it, yet you might be the only one. Um.
Speaker 1: We also have Joel Webber, the editor of Bloomberg Business Week,
Speaker 1: with us in the Bloomberg Interactive Brokers studio. Matt, I
Speaker 1: want to hear more about your perceptions and conceptions of
Speaker 1: crypto before going into this versus after doing the reporting
Speaker 1: and writing, Like you must have gone in with some
Speaker 1: sort of notion and I'm wondering what that was and
Speaker 1: and if it changed by the end. I wouldn't say
Speaker 1: it changed true dramatically, and part of you know, like
Speaker 1: like I do come like I don't. I don't come
Speaker 1: to the story with an angle in the sense of
Speaker 1: like I'm a crypto booster or I'm a you know,
Speaker 1: crypto hater, And I kind of felt like that was
Speaker 1: the only way to do it right. Like I feel
Speaker 1: like I read a lot by crypto boosters that is
Speaker 1: very enthusiastic, but like very kind of in the weeds
Speaker 1: and jargon e and like and like, you know, sort
Speaker 1: of assumes you're already a believer. And I read a
Speaker 1: lot of stuff by skeptics that is just angry, and
Speaker 1: I wanted to sort of kind of find a middle ground.
Speaker 1: But like I do come from to it from the
Speaker 1: perspective of I am a financial writer, and I'm most
Speaker 1: interested in the crypto financial system, and so in writing this,
Speaker 1: I found myself often charmed by the crypto financial system
Speaker 1: and by like the cleverness of of like what people
Speaker 1: were doing in decentralized finance, and by the enthusiasm of
Speaker 1: people who work in crypto finance, not just about like
Speaker 1: making a lot of money, but about how someone said
Speaker 1: to me, things just work in crypto, like you just
Speaker 1: like if you want to like start trading stuff, you
Speaker 1: like plug into the exchange and you start trading this stuff.
Speaker 1: And in traditional finance, there's a lot more like uh process, right,
Speaker 1: there's a lot more like you you like call a
Speaker 1: bank and they send you a contract so you can
Speaker 1: sign up an account, and then like you know, you
Speaker 1: have to like call someone else to like hook over
Speaker 1: your data to the exchange, and it's just like a
Speaker 1: more manual, complicated, subjective, you know process where like insiders
Speaker 1: sort of get more access and in crypto everything is
Speaker 1: sort of straightforward and computerized, and like like that's like
Speaker 1: what people told me, Like that's like that was the
Speaker 1: thing they liked that they could sort of start a product,
Speaker 1: start trading something, come up with an idea, and implement
Speaker 1: it without like sort of getting anyone's permission. Obviously there's
Speaker 1: a flip side to them, which is that like you
Speaker 1: don't get the regulators permission, and sometimes the product is like,
Speaker 1: you know, theft. But m h, that was a sort
Speaker 1: of that was a thing that like, I was struck
Speaker 1: by people's enthusiasm for that because I think that when
Speaker 1: I was you know, when I've written my column about crypto,
Speaker 1: I've often thought of crypto as being, you know, people
Speaker 1: call the block chain a slow database, and I think
Speaker 1: of it as being a sort of like ah, like
Speaker 1: like it like a difficult to use system in some
Speaker 1: ways because it is unintuitive to outsiders. But I think
Speaker 1: when you like, the people who use it find it
Speaker 1: so much easier to use than traditional finance because it
Speaker 1: is you know, kind of like disintermediated and permissionless and
Speaker 1: just like you can like read the documents and then
Speaker 1: go do the thing. H haters are gonna hate, and
Speaker 1: crypto haters will will ask, sure words, what's crypto for? Still, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean I don't like I I really I share
Speaker 1: that skepticism, you know, Like I I like there are
Speaker 1: like people tell stories about how crypto is changing our
Speaker 1: will change your day to day life, and I often
Speaker 1: find those stories not particularly compelling. Right, there's a lot
Speaker 1: of like you could own a share in the bands
Speaker 1: you like and then if those bands become popular, you'll
Speaker 1: get rich. It's like why what like how is that
Speaker 1: a thing? Um or there? Or like you know, you
Speaker 1: can like own your data on the on the on,
Speaker 1: like your social networks and you can get paid to
Speaker 1: serve ads to you like um, It's it's like it's
Speaker 1: like these stories of sort of like micropayments and like ownership,
Speaker 1: like like sort of financializing everything that uh you know,
Speaker 1: Like I'm a finance guy. I like that. I like
Speaker 1: some I like a certain amount of financialization, but I
Speaker 1: also like I spent a long time reading about like
Speaker 1: we're gonna like sell equity in college students so that
Speaker 1: you can like bet on their futures, and like you know,
Speaker 1: now I'm like, okay, yeah, people, people are gonna keep
Speaker 1: writing that's ever gonna happen, right, Like there are some
Speaker 1: things that that sort of resist financialization, and crypto is
Speaker 1: like we're going to financialize everything at once, and that
Speaker 1: seems implausible. To me. Um so in that sense, like
Speaker 1: I am like, like, I think there's there's you know,
Speaker 1: potential like stories like that that will come true. But
Speaker 1: I'm not super bullish. I'm like, we're gonna have a
Speaker 1: coin for everything that you do in your life. Um
Speaker 1: but uh, Matt, Matt, let me just ask you, because
Speaker 1: you know, we lost what two trillion dollars in crypto wealth,
Speaker 1: right that happened, and yet, as you point out in
Speaker 1: your in the magazine, you know, it's not like the
Speaker 1: rest of the financial markets or the economy came undone
Speaker 1: because of that. So what is the meeting of it?
Speaker 1: You know, what does that say about the future in
Speaker 1: terms of the value of crypto? Crypto and that First
Speaker 1: of all, we're glad it didn't bring down the markets,
Speaker 1: But I mean, what does it say about its real
Speaker 1: value going forward? Or maybe it doesn't. I don't know.
Speaker 1: Uh yeah, I mean I do think that. I mean,
Speaker 1: first of all, we lost a lot more than two
Speaker 1: trillion dollars of stock market wealth you know this year,
Speaker 1: Like uh, Like, you know, like crypto whatever else it is,
Speaker 1: is a very speculative asset class, right, Like people who
Speaker 1: invest in crypto for the most part, are like, this
Speaker 1: is a fun gamble more than they're like, this is
Speaker 1: where I'm putting my life savings because it's like and
Speaker 1: I promised me a study two percent return. So the
Speaker 1: fact that it crashed, you know, people who were betting
Speaker 1: on it going up it went down, but they could
Speaker 1: sort of afford to take that loss because it was
Speaker 1: essentially a speculative asset. So that's one reason that it
Speaker 1: didn't really like ramified to the rest of the economy.
Speaker 1: But the other reason is definitely that like you're not
Speaker 1: you know, financing your home or your you know, your
Speaker 1: business by like going to the crypto lender, and so
Speaker 1: crypto is not super integrated into into like the financing
Speaker 1: of real world activity. So it is it is you know,
Speaker 1: when it crashes, it's not like the crypto bank shuts
Speaker 1: down and you can't get a mortgage for your house,
Speaker 1: like you can still go to the regular bank. Um.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean I think I've said that like
Speaker 1: like to the if the next crypto financial crisis, because
Speaker 1: there really was a crypto financial crisis this year with
Speaker 1: like failing you know, lenders, If the next crypto financial
Speaker 1: crisis causes a slowdown in the real economy. Then you'll
Speaker 1: be like, oh, Crypto arrived, Like Crypto is now like
Speaker 1: meaningfully integrated into everyone's lives such that when it crashes
Speaker 1: that affects the world. We're like, we're not quite there yet.
Speaker 1: So Matt, um, you know we do this every week, um, um,
Speaker 1: wondering what's your next single topic issue takeover of the
Speaker 1: magazine and and what kind of deadline I can give
Speaker 1: you now that we do well, you know I'm gonna
Speaker 1: I'm gonna do a retrospective on Elon Musk. I'll go,
Speaker 1: I'm never gonna write it again. Yeah, it right right
Speaker 1: my control. I mean, I guess the question is kind
Speaker 1: of where the story goes from here? To me, that
Speaker 1: is the most interesting part about Crypto, right, And I
Speaker 1: won't even pretend to know, And that wasn't really the
Speaker 1: goal of the project. Um, although I think Matt poses
Speaker 1: some really and I don't want to give away the
Speaker 1: ending because he just it's a really majestic way that
Speaker 1: I think he wrestles with this question. Um. And boy,
Speaker 1: I will just say, having been at editor of Business
Speaker 1: Week for a while, worked at Bloomberg for ten years,
Speaker 1: it's just like this story makes you just want to
Speaker 1: get a bowl of popcorn. Uh, read the issue to
Speaker 1: make sense of everything that we've all lived through, and
Speaker 1: also just keep eating that popcorn to see what happens.
Speaker 1: Like I'm really deeply curious. And that was the curiosity
Speaker 1: that I think Matt infused UH into this story. And
Speaker 1: I mean, we're we're just honored to publish it. Matt.
Speaker 1: You should know. I tell you should know that in
Speaker 1: the news room, people have been hunting down for the issue.
Speaker 1: We typically have them. There's so much bitcoin you've got
Speaker 1: to give me. But I'm just telling you, everybody wants
Speaker 1: the issue to read, and it's like we've been like,
Speaker 1: do you have the issue? Do you have the issue? Um? Matt,
Speaker 1: thank you so much. I really mean it like I've
Speaker 1: learned so much and I think everybody who reads it does.
Speaker 1: It is called The Crypto Story, Your Guide to what
Speaker 1: it does, what it means, and why it still matters,
Speaker 1: Written by Bloomberg Opinions Matt Luvin. Check it out. As
Speaker 1: we said, it's the entire issue of Bloomberg Big Business
Speaker 1: Week magazine and our thanks to Jill Webber, editor of
Speaker 1: the magazine, who I guess it's something to do with small,
Speaker 1: small Matten and Pat get the most props. Well, Joel,
Speaker 1: thank you for joining us. Joel Ever, the editor of
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Business Week, with us in the Bloomberg Interactive Broker Studio.
Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Masser and Bloomberg
Speaker 1: Quick Takes Tim Stinovic on Bloomberg Radio. All right, so,
Speaker 1: speaking of metal platforms, they talked an awful lot about
Speaker 1: the metaverse this week and continuing to spend money on it,
Speaker 1: and you know, our next guest has some real smart
Speaker 1: thoughts about it when it comes to shopping in the metaverse.
Speaker 1: We please have back with us, Nih has saying founder
Speaker 1: and a CEO of Obsess. It's a shop of a
Speaker 1: virtual store platform, and it offers consumers a way that
Speaker 1: they can shop and experience their products online and in
Speaker 1: the metaverse. Nia, good to have you back with us.
Speaker 1: How are you? Thank you so much for having me
Speaker 1: to encou So when we think about established brands in
Speaker 1: the metaverse, should we think about this as a way
Speaker 1: to kind of like the way that companies started offering
Speaker 1: their products online. You know, instead of sending you catalogs
Speaker 1: twenty years ago, you could go to you know, I
Speaker 1: don't know name the company Patagonia dot com and actually
Speaker 1: look at a jacket there is this. This is the
Speaker 1: same thing happening now in terms of the metaverse. Yes,
Speaker 1: absolutely so. The way, like you know, we define the
Speaker 1: metaverse is that it is the next generation of the Internet.
Speaker 1: Like if you think about their websites started in the nineties, right,
Speaker 1: they were very plain, they had mostly text, and then
Speaker 1: we added images, and then we added videos. Um and
Speaker 1: now with the hardware capabilities that are there in the
Speaker 1: market as well as our you know, network speeds pushing
Speaker 1: into I G and more, it's just possible to do
Speaker 1: much richer graphical interfaces online. And that's really what's leading
Speaker 1: to the metaverse, which is a three D version of
Speaker 1: the Internet. Um So, what you're seeing brands do now
Speaker 1: is that they're starting to create these more three D
Speaker 1: immersive experiences that are actually closer to the real world, right,
Speaker 1: because the real world is three D, it's all around us.
Speaker 1: We don't look at the real world in a database
Speaker 1: like we do most of online shopping today. Um So,
Speaker 1: it's just that technology is now getting to the point
Speaker 1: that that's possible, and that this is all happening on
Speaker 1: mobile devices and on desktop computers. You don't require like
Speaker 1: we are headsets and you know, to put goggles. It's
Speaker 1: all happening on the devices that you already have. I
Speaker 1: try to think where this could go. Yeah, And I
Speaker 1: think about, you know, could I essentially have a body
Speaker 1: scan of me so that there's an avatar that with
Speaker 1: my dimensions exactly, and I go to the metaverse and
Speaker 1: I go shopping at the mall or go shopping down
Speaker 1: you know street in New York City Pappatoo shops, and
Speaker 1: I can actually try on close with the right digital dimensions,
Speaker 1: and I can really get a feel of how things fit. Like,
Speaker 1: is there's something there that makes me want to do
Speaker 1: because I gotta tell you, I like living in the
Speaker 1: real life. So this idea of shopping, you know, I
Speaker 1: just can't get my head around it. So I'm trying
Speaker 1: to think, is there some super level that will get
Speaker 1: us there? Yeah, So two pass to that. First of all,
Speaker 1: what you described with you know, having kind of your
Speaker 1: avatar in the metavers and having your exact dimensions and
Speaker 1: trying on clothes, that's absolutely sort of the holy grail
Speaker 1: of the future of fashion shopping. We are not there
Speaker 1: yet in terms of having the full technology to be
Speaker 1: able to have that body scan easily or try on
Speaker 1: clothes easily, because not all brands have three D models
Speaker 1: of their products yet. But that is the direction that
Speaker 1: we are heading into. Um. But the second part I
Speaker 1: would say is like, think about the things that we
Speaker 1: are doing with brands in the metabors today is not
Speaker 1: like you are going into some other world and it's
Speaker 1: actually not that foreign. So it is really an improvement
Speaker 1: over two Day's online shopping interface, which is good for
Speaker 1: you know, if you want to if you know exactly
Speaker 1: what you want to buy, and you can search and
Speaker 1: filter and get to it and it's very efficient, right,
Speaker 1: But when you go shopping in real life and stores,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of discovery and you're almost like it's
Speaker 1: an entertainment experience because you're getting that inspiration from the
Speaker 1: brand and um, you know their stories. So yeah, it
Speaker 1: makes me sorry to interrupt it, It It makes me. It
Speaker 1: kind of reminds me of the way that we saw
Speaker 1: news transition from newspapers to online and the way that
Speaker 1: some people still really like to hold onto a newspaper,
Speaker 1: you know, on a Sunday, because they might actually see
Speaker 1: or encounter an article that they wouldn't necessarily click on
Speaker 1: if it were presented to them h on a web
Speaker 1: page for example, So how do you replicate that in
Speaker 1: the metaverse? Yeah, absolutely, So that's exactly what the brands
Speaker 1: that we are working with are doing, is that they
Speaker 1: are creating these UM virtual and I means that again,
Speaker 1: it's very easy for you to access. It's not like
Speaker 1: you're going into the metaborse and you don't have to
Speaker 1: become an amator if you don't want to. It's really
Speaker 1: a different interface for exploring products in which UM you know,
Speaker 1: you can discover things that you weren't necessarily like looking for.
Speaker 1: And we actually see that from the data, is that
Speaker 1: customers are buying more in these environments because similar to
Speaker 1: a retail store, you might just come across something that
Speaker 1: you weren't necessarily looking for, and it's ultimately a more
Speaker 1: intuitive shopping interface because while most brands come to us
Speaker 1: to target a younger audience who's super used to gaming right,
Speaker 1: and this interface is very similar to gaming UM in
Speaker 1: terms of moving to a three D environment. But then
Speaker 1: we also have customers that are high and luxury brands
Speaker 1: and their typical demographic is much older and they're seeing
Speaker 1: they're seeing great results because well, ultimately it's very intuitive.
Speaker 1: It's like, you know what you do in real life. Nia,
Speaker 1: We get a round, but we'll check in with you
Speaker 1: real soon. Nia, seeing founder and CEO of Obsessed, joining
Speaker 1: s via zoom from New York City and the Michael Jurnal. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but you let me drive. Oh no, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: honey leaved gravels. I want to drive. Its good question.
Speaker 1: Drive is the drive to the clothes on Bloomberg Radio.
Speaker 1: All right, everybuddy, we are getting ready to wrap up
Speaker 1: the last fully glow October trading, which is pretty remarkable.
Speaker 1: And look at the rally and we are yeah, oh yeah,
Speaker 1: November stress this week. I mean not on Monday, but right,
Speaker 1: thirty days has September full week. Yeah, so we still
Speaker 1: got one more Yeah, we got one more day of
Speaker 1: launch at the office. But look at the rally we
Speaker 1: had it. No, today is the last day. Yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: all right, we're kind of all over the place. But
Speaker 1: that's the kind of week it hasn't been. But as
Speaker 1: Charlie mentioned, stocks holding out of their dames. Let's get
Speaker 1: into it with Michael shell, An, executive director in chief
Speaker 1: at Messman officer at High Tower, r DM Financial Group
Speaker 1: joining us once again on the phone from Westport, Connecticut. Michael,
Speaker 1: good to have you back with us. How you doing,
Speaker 1: Thanks very much, pleasure to be here. So, UM, are
Speaker 1: we out of the woods? Well? This week has certainly
Speaker 1: been an impressive rally. UM. I think you have to
Speaker 1: sort of step back a little bit. The markets bottom
Speaker 1: around October thirteenth or so, so this is sort of
Speaker 1: the fourth multi week rally that we've had in this
Speaker 1: bear market that started back in January, and when the
Speaker 1: markets hit their lows October, I think sentiment was really
Speaker 1: pretty negative and a couple other things have contributed. Recently,
Speaker 1: There's been a little bit of a pullback in the dollar,
Speaker 1: which has been super strong this year, and interest rates
Speaker 1: have started to pull back a little bit as well.
Speaker 1: So next week will be really interesting because the Fed
Speaker 1: meets October sorry November one and second, and there's a
Speaker 1: lot of anticipation of what they will or won't say
Speaker 1: and whether they'll start to make their shift. But this
Speaker 1: has certainly been an impressive rally so far. UM. One
Speaker 1: thing just to mention is that the TAO, interestingly after
Speaker 1: today is the first of the major indices to move
Speaker 1: back above their key two day moving averages. So that's
Speaker 1: something a lot of investors watched, separating a longer term
Speaker 1: rally versus a short term rally. None of the other
Speaker 1: major markets have done that, but that's certainly something to
Speaker 1: to monitor going forward. So sorry, Carol, So we could
Speaker 1: be out of the woods when it comes to the
Speaker 1: Dow because that technical, but proceed with caution. I mean,
Speaker 1: what's the takeaway there? Well, I think it's certainly an
Speaker 1: encouraging sign when the markets, when the different industries move
Speaker 1: above the moving average. Historically, at least, that helps separate
Speaker 1: a short term move from a longer term, more sustainable move.
Speaker 1: But I think in terms of whether we're out of
Speaker 1: the woods, I think it's a little, certainly, in our opinion,
Speaker 1: a little bit too early to say that. If you
Speaker 1: look at some of the economic data, and I think
Speaker 1: it's really important to keep an eye in the consumer,
Speaker 1: for example, because that represents two thirds of the economy.
Speaker 1: So on the positive side, looking at the consumer, uh,
Speaker 1: you have the lowest unemployment since nine and you have
Speaker 1: wages growing at five scent, but that's being offset by
Speaker 1: higher inflation and rising rates, which are affecting the equity
Speaker 1: and housing market. So the consumer appears to be pretty resilient,
Speaker 1: and you know, that sort of fits in with whether
Speaker 1: we're in a recession or going into a recession, and
Speaker 1: so I think there's still some uncertainty about that and
Speaker 1: what the said will be doing at their next meeting.
Speaker 1: It's funny too that you mentioned the DOW. I mean,
Speaker 1: I think I feel like we live in a world
Speaker 1: where people kind of blow the towel to the side
Speaker 1: and think about, Okay, what's the SMP doing, what's the
Speaker 1: NAZAC one hundred doing. Um, So, how do you kind
Speaker 1: of factor and what's going on with the doubt of
Speaker 1: it back above its technical move, you know, above its
Speaker 1: two day Michael, versus what we're seeing on the SMP
Speaker 1: and the NAZAC, which is much more representative of a
Speaker 1: broader part of the market. Yeah, that's a great question.
Speaker 1: And if you're in the financial markets like we are
Speaker 1: every day, most investors follow, most individual investors follow the doubt.
Speaker 1: That's what gets all the headlines you see live on
Speaker 1: the newspapers and on the news. But people follow the
Speaker 1: mark gets on a regular basis, really follow the s
Speaker 1: and P five hundred and one of the things we're seeing,
Speaker 1: which is really interesting, is I think you're starting to
Speaker 1: see in the past couple of weeks a shift, a
Speaker 1: shift unfortunately out of technology, which has been the market
Speaker 1: leader from much of the past decade or so. And
Speaker 1: the shift is out of out of technology stocks. We
Speaker 1: already started to see some of the money losing high
Speaker 1: valuation stocks get hits starting in two thowy one, but
Speaker 1: the shift is For example, if you look at the
Speaker 1: equal weighted S and P five hundred this week, that's
Speaker 1: up about five point four, while the sm P five hundred,
Speaker 1: which is market cap weighted, is up just three nine.
Speaker 1: So not a big difference, and it's only this week,
Speaker 1: but I think that's an interesting trend that will have
Speaker 1: to watch heading into the end of this year and
Speaker 1: next year. Can I just look, you know, it's funny.
Speaker 1: I was just kind of picking apart the marketer as
Speaker 1: you're talking. Industrials are up almost seven percent this week.
Speaker 1: Utilities are up, yeah, I mean real estate, finance souls.
Speaker 1: I mean, most of the ten of the eleven major
Speaker 1: industry groups in the SP five are higher. But it's
Speaker 1: consumer staples, financials, real estate, utilities, industrials at the top.
Speaker 1: Um what does that tell you, Michael Well, I think
Speaker 1: it's sort of a mixed bag. Industrials have been approving recently,
Speaker 1: We've seen some better relative strength than some of those stocks.
Speaker 1: I think investors are still trying to figure out if
Speaker 1: we're going to be going into a recession or not,
Speaker 1: and if we are in a recession, is it going
Speaker 1: to be a mild recession, which to us seems like
Speaker 1: the most likely scenario because you don't have the kind
Speaker 1: of major imbalances this time around that you did, for example,
Speaker 1: in the banks going into two thousand eight. UM consumers generally,
Speaker 1: although consumers the household savings rate is down to I
Speaker 1: think about three point four percent, households in general don't
Speaker 1: seem to be UM. Household savings in general seem to
Speaker 1: be okay. Household balance sheets seemed to be okay. UM.
Speaker 1: The one thing that we're starting to watch is housing
Speaker 1: is starting to come down, and that's interest sensitive, so
Speaker 1: that makes sense. But in terms of the sectors UM.
Speaker 1: One of the other things to watch, for example, is
Speaker 1: small caps, which has done well, and that's sort of
Speaker 1: small caps would do better if we're coming out of
Speaker 1: a recession, and it's sort of more speculation and people
Speaker 1: are more optimistic. So I think it's too early to
Speaker 1: sound the all clear, and it'll be interesting, especially to
Speaker 1: see what the Fed says next week and what the
Speaker 1: employment numbers come out as next week as well's week
Speaker 1: next week. Yeah, do you expect the Fed to, I
Speaker 1: don't know, give us some sort of guidance that they're
Speaker 1: still looking at that they're considering basis points for December, Well,
Speaker 1: I think it's I think seventy five basis points for
Speaker 1: November is pretty much baked in the cake. But I
Speaker 1: think for December that's an interesting that will be a
Speaker 1: more interesting meeting. For this meeting, we don't have the
Speaker 1: inflation data in front of us. We had already the
Speaker 1: inflation data that came out today. For example, the feds
Speaker 1: favorite core PC index actually rose month over month to
Speaker 1: five point one pc, which is the highest level since
Speaker 1: I think back in March when it was five point
Speaker 1: four p But it the FED me eating next next
Speaker 1: week or in two weeks, I think the keys to
Speaker 1: watch will be one, Uh, does the Fed say we're
Speaker 1: making progress on inflation, which would be a signal that
Speaker 1: they're shift starting to shift policy, Or two do they
Speaker 1: say that inflation remains higher than we'd like, which continues
Speaker 1: to be the party line in recent weeks and will
Speaker 1: probably indicate a seventy five basis point hike in December
Speaker 1: may be more likely. All Right, we're gonna leave it
Speaker 1: on that, hey, Michael, have a great weekend. Um, Thank
Speaker 1: you so much, really appreciate it. Michael Sheldon, executive director
Speaker 1: and chief investment Officer at High Tower r DM Financial Group,
Speaker 1: based in Westport, and that's where we found him on
Speaker 1: the phone on this Friday. Thanks for listening to Bloomberg
Speaker 1: Business Week. Download the podcast on iTunes, SoundCloud, or Bloomberg
Speaker 1: dot com, and you can also listen to our radio
Speaker 1: show at two pm Eastern on Bloomberg Radio or watch
Speaker 1: us on YouTube. Search to Bloomberg Global News.