1
00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:03,760
Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you missed in History Class from how

2
00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:13,600
Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast

3
00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:15,680
Speaker 1: I'm to bling a chalk reboarding and I'm stared out,

4
00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:19,440
Speaker 1: and we talk a lot about the real historical influences

5
00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:23,720
Speaker 1: behind stories and books and movies in particular. But of course,

6
00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:26,880
Speaker 1: the same sort of approach can easily apply to other

7
00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:30,600
Speaker 1: literary and performance genres like place. Yeah, and if you're

8
00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:34,400
Speaker 1: a theater buff, you're probably gonna know the play that

9
00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:36,840
Speaker 1: we're gonna be talking about today, or you'll at least

10
00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:39,760
Speaker 1: have heard of it. It's called Clyburne Park and it

11
00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:43,400
Speaker 1: opened on Broadway about a month ago to rave reviews,

12
00:00:43,479 --> 00:00:47,200
Speaker 1: and has been nominated for several Tonies, including Best Play,

13
00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:49,920
Speaker 1: Best Performance by an Actor and a Featured Role in

14
00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:53,320
Speaker 1: a Play, and Best Direction of a Play. So a

15
00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:56,480
Speaker 1: lot of acclaim going on. And the play was written

16
00:00:56,520 --> 00:00:59,040
Speaker 1: by Bruce Norris in two thousand nine, and it won

17
00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:01,760
Speaker 1: both the two thou the Leven Pulitzer Prize for Drama

18
00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:06,240
Speaker 1: and London's Olivier Award for Best Play. So Clybram Park

19
00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:09,960
Speaker 1: and its successes are relatively recent, but the history behind

20
00:01:09,959 --> 00:01:13,560
Speaker 1: the story portrayed here goes back decades. The play is

21
00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:16,600
Speaker 1: actually inspired by another very famous play that many of

22
00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:18,399
Speaker 1: you will have heard of, and that's Raisin in the

23
00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:21,920
Speaker 1: Sun by Lorraine Handsbury. Raisin in the Sun, for those

24
00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:25,560
Speaker 1: who aren't familiar, basically deals with the social and emotional

25
00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:28,800
Speaker 1: struggles of a poor black family in Chicago as they

26
00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:30,360
Speaker 1: try to figure out what to do with the ten

27
00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:34,200
Speaker 1: thousan dollar insurance windfall that the mother is about to receive.

28
00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:37,960
Speaker 1: Each family member has their own ideas about the best

29
00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:40,280
Speaker 1: way to spend the money, and the mother ends up

30
00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:42,959
Speaker 1: using part of the money to buy a house in

31
00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:46,080
Speaker 1: a white neighborhood, and they're met with opposition from the

32
00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:49,280
Speaker 1: residents of that neighborhood, and one in particular character named

33
00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:52,160
Speaker 1: Carl even comes to try to talk them out of

34
00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:55,040
Speaker 1: it and buy them out, but they don't take it.

35
00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:57,040
Speaker 1: They don't take his money, and that's a big turning

36
00:01:57,080 --> 00:02:00,200
Speaker 1: point in that play. But this house plot line and

37
00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:05,000
Speaker 1: the racial tension surrounding it actually took inspiration from Lauren

38
00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:09,160
Speaker 1: Handsbury's own life. Her African American family moved to a

39
00:02:09,200 --> 00:02:12,679
Speaker 1: white neighborhood and all white neighborhood, Washington Park in Chicago,

40
00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:15,520
Speaker 1: when she was eight years old, and that was in

41
00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:19,000
Speaker 1: the late nineteen thirties, and her family also had to

42
00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:22,480
Speaker 1: deal with all of these issues surrounding it, even threats

43
00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:26,200
Speaker 1: of physical violence and just just hatred too. Because a

44
00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:29,559
Speaker 1: lot of people didn't want their neighborhoods to be integrated,

45
00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:33,360
Speaker 1: their neighbors literally tried to force them out, citing a

46
00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:37,359
Speaker 1: racially restrictive covenant which basically barred black people from living

47
00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:40,000
Speaker 1: in the neighborhood. As a legal they cited this as

48
00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:42,800
Speaker 1: their legal basis to get the Handsburies out of the neighborhood.

49
00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:46,240
Speaker 1: Just a little background on that the black population Chicago

50
00:02:46,320 --> 00:02:49,960
Speaker 1: had increased significantly during the beginning of the twentieth century,

51
00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:54,239
Speaker 1: and these covenants they had basically been established to segregate

52
00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:56,880
Speaker 1: them when they had been set up almost as buffer

53
00:02:56,960 --> 00:03:02,200
Speaker 1: neighborhoods that would isolate these large, predominantly black neighborhoods from

54
00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:06,160
Speaker 1: predominantly white neighborhoods. But a couple of things had happened

55
00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:10,480
Speaker 1: around the time that Handsbury's family had moved into this neighborhood.

56
00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:13,080
Speaker 1: There was an increased demand for housing, of course, because

57
00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:16,120
Speaker 1: of that black population increase, and it was coupled with

58
00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:20,480
Speaker 1: kind of a depressed white housing market after the Depression,

59
00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:24,120
Speaker 1: so that started to break down the system, and for

60
00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:28,720
Speaker 1: for an African American family like Handsbury's, the best deal

61
00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:30,440
Speaker 1: they could find on a house was in a white

62
00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:34,079
Speaker 1: neighborhood because the white family couldn't find a buyer, and

63
00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:38,400
Speaker 1: the black neighborhoods had housing in such short supply that

64
00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:42,640
Speaker 1: the prices were all inflated. So all of this culminated

65
00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:45,800
Speaker 1: in the nineteen forty U. S. Supreme Court case Handsbury

66
00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:48,760
Speaker 1: versus Lee, which actually turned out in favor of the

67
00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:51,800
Speaker 1: hands Berries, but they still had to struggle with discrimination

68
00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:54,960
Speaker 1: and hostility for a long time after that. So A

69
00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:59,360
Speaker 1: Raisin in the Sun, the dramatization of that story, or

70
00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:03,200
Speaker 1: at least something that was inspired by Lauren Handsbury's own story,

71
00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:06,680
Speaker 1: opened on Broadway in March of nineteen fifty nine, and

72
00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:09,880
Speaker 1: it was the first drama by an African American woman

73
00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:13,680
Speaker 1: to be produced on Broadway, and Cliborne Park picks up

74
00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:17,640
Speaker 1: where handsbury story left off, and it takes place entirely

75
00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:20,920
Speaker 1: in the sitting room of the same middle class Chicago

76
00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:24,000
Speaker 1: home the youngers have just fought so when the play

77
00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:27,719
Speaker 1: opens in nineteen fifty nine, it's centered on this middle

78
00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:30,359
Speaker 1: aged married couple Rust and Bev, and they're in the

79
00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:33,640
Speaker 1: process of moving out there, relocating to the suburbs so

80
00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:37,400
Speaker 1: that Rust can be closer to his office. Gradually, though,

81
00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:39,680
Speaker 1: it comes out that they're also just really eager to

82
00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:43,320
Speaker 1: leave behind sad memories they have of this house since

83
00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:46,560
Speaker 1: the death of their Korean War veterans son, and they're

84
00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:49,200
Speaker 1: just ready to get out of their neighborhood and make

85
00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:52,800
Speaker 1: a fresh start. The first act focuses on relations between

86
00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:56,839
Speaker 1: the still Morning family and their black housekeeper, her husband

87
00:04:56,960 --> 00:05:01,039
Speaker 1: a local priest, and Karl Lindner, the in true overly

88
00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:05,200
Speaker 1: formal representative from the neighborhood association. So when Carl shows

89
00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:09,040
Speaker 1: up with his heavily pregnant wife, Betsy, who is also deaf,

90
00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:11,880
Speaker 1: he's just arrived from a Raisin in the sun, so

91
00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:14,960
Speaker 1: kind of stepped off one page into another almost exactly,

92
00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:18,520
Speaker 1: and having failed to convince the unnamed younger family not

93
00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:21,080
Speaker 1: to buy the house, he's come to convince Rust and

94
00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:24,680
Speaker 1: Bev not to sell it. Race money and the ill

95
00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:27,360
Speaker 1: feelings Rusts has felt for the neighborhood since his son

96
00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:29,560
Speaker 1: came home from the war. All come out with this

97
00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:34,359
Speaker 1: yeah and then there's a long intermission where the setting

98
00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:37,400
Speaker 1: is aged fifty years, still the same setting, No, this

99
00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:41,000
Speaker 1: sitting room, it's aged fifty years to a really decrepit state.

100
00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:44,040
Speaker 1: And the play picks up in Act two in two

101
00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:47,520
Speaker 1: thousand nine, and there's this new young family, this time

102
00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:51,720
Speaker 1: a white suburban family looking to move closer to their

103
00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:54,760
Speaker 1: downtown job than their meeting in the sitting room with

104
00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:58,760
Speaker 1: their lawyer and with representatives from the neighborhood association who

105
00:05:58,880 --> 00:06:02,000
Speaker 1: are really concerned about their plan to come into the

106
00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:05,560
Speaker 1: neighborhood tear down this old home and build a new,

107
00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:09,720
Speaker 1: much larger home. And to add to matters, Lena, one

108
00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:12,800
Speaker 1: of the neighbors who's opposing the tear down, was a

109
00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:15,600
Speaker 1: niece of the younger's and remembers playing in the house

110
00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:18,440
Speaker 1: as a girl and knows about its significance as the

111
00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:22,160
Speaker 1: first house in the neighborhood owned by African Americans. Kathy,

112
00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:25,320
Speaker 1: one of the lawyers, is coincidentally the daughter of Carl,

113
00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:29,040
Speaker 1: but seems to know nothing about her family's own involvement

114
00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:32,200
Speaker 1: in the home's history. So again it's a half funny,

115
00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:36,720
Speaker 1: half kind of horribly awkward discussion that ensues about race

116
00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:41,880
Speaker 1: and neighborhoods. So we were interested in hearing a little

117
00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:45,960
Speaker 1: bit more about the historical background of this play, and

118
00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:49,360
Speaker 1: we got a chance to interview the place director Pam McKinnon.

119
00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:53,200
Speaker 1: It was her first time on Broadway, UM, and she

120
00:06:53,279 --> 00:06:55,960
Speaker 1: got all these Tony nominations for her play. But she

121
00:06:56,040 --> 00:06:59,000
Speaker 1: also had a lot to say about, uh, just the

122
00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:02,560
Speaker 1: research that went into something like this where the period

123
00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:05,880
Speaker 1: details have to be so perfect. And here's what she

124
00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:09,240
Speaker 1: had to say. I mean, I definitely had a lot

125
00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:12,559
Speaker 1: of conversations with my set designer about what this house

126
00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:17,240
Speaker 1: would be. Uh. And very lucky for us, my set designer,

127
00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:21,680
Speaker 1: Dan Austlings also nominated for a Tony for his work. UM.

128
00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:28,760
Speaker 1: A friend of his had just bought of a bungalow

129
00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:33,720
Speaker 1: house very much like like what Bruce and Loreen Handsbury

130
00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:37,720
Speaker 1: were describing, in sort of exactly the same like just

131
00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:42,080
Speaker 1: north of downtown Chicago neighborhood and so and they were

132
00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:44,840
Speaker 1: and they were going in doing some pretty major renovations,

133
00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:49,160
Speaker 1: and so Dan was able to be in exactly this

134
00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:51,880
Speaker 1: kind of living room sort of in the state that

135
00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:56,160
Speaker 1: the our second act two thousand and nine was in. UM.

136
00:07:56,200 --> 00:08:00,920
Speaker 1: So that was sort of amazing and just very fortuitous. Um.

137
00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:03,160
Speaker 1: Uh so you know, so so so some you know,

138
00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:06,440
Speaker 1: great research went into that. And then also what what

139
00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:10,800
Speaker 1: would that bungalow house look like in the late fifties? Um,

140
00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:13,840
Speaker 1: you know it was also really exacting period research that

141
00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:16,720
Speaker 1: you know, great designers do. UM. And the same with

142
00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:20,680
Speaker 1: my costume designer figuring out um, you know, people's social

143
00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:25,000
Speaker 1: standing and you know it's a Saturday afternoon in June, Um,

144
00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:28,000
Speaker 1: what are what are people wearing? Um? You know, it's

145
00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:31,160
Speaker 1: also really exacting research. I guess in terms of like

146
00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:34,840
Speaker 1: performance style, something I was really interested in as a

147
00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:38,800
Speaker 1: director to separate um the first act from the second

148
00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:45,360
Speaker 1: act a little bit more was I wanted to embrace um,

149
00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:51,959
Speaker 1: a sort of a sense of theatricality in the first act,

150
00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:55,920
Speaker 1: which for me sort of allowed people to make even

151
00:08:56,000 --> 00:08:59,520
Speaker 1: just like like bigger physical gestures UM, and just sort

152
00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:06,239
Speaker 1: of really embrace what a mid century American road shouldered,

153
00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:11,840
Speaker 1: big boned play can be. And then the second act, UM,

154
00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:15,760
Speaker 1: working with this fact, this fabulous acting company was interested

155
00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:19,880
Speaker 1: in embracing a little bit more sort of the like

156
00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:24,439
Speaker 1: an American realism and American a more contemporary feel. But

157
00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:26,480
Speaker 1: you know, but and then and then all came from

158
00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:30,560
Speaker 1: Bruce's text. Um. You know, it came from the syntax

159
00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:34,240
Speaker 1: that is very different act one to act too, um,

160
00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:39,440
Speaker 1: and and came from the the different rhythms between the

161
00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:43,839
Speaker 1: acts on the topic of Raisin and the sun connection. Specifically,

162
00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:47,080
Speaker 1: when it came to the character of Carl, who appears

163
00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:50,560
Speaker 1: in both that play and Clybrant Park, we really wondered

164
00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:55,000
Speaker 1: how much did McKinnon and actor Jeremy Samos who plays Carl,

165
00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:59,800
Speaker 1: really worry about making the character reminiscent of Handsbury's Carl.

166
00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:03,400
Speaker 1: So the text or the or the or the situation

167
00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:08,520
Speaker 1: that Bruce developed is is completely immersed with Lorraine Hansbury's

168
00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:12,640
Speaker 1: classic play. Um. But what was really interesting, and you know,

169
00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:15,920
Speaker 1: in in no small part that when we first did

170
00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:22,160
Speaker 1: this off Broadway, that we had a really short rehearsal process. Um.

171
00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:24,240
Speaker 1: And that's just the way Off Broadway works. You you

172
00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:27,400
Speaker 1: you you put up these plays very very quickly. That

173
00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:29,920
Speaker 1: that you know, sort of our our job, sort of

174
00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:35,040
Speaker 1: running on adrenaline, was about putting up this play. And

175
00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:38,200
Speaker 1: so yes, there was a ton of research that went

176
00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:41,160
Speaker 1: into what should this house look like, what should these

177
00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:44,520
Speaker 1: people be wearing? But as far as you know, trying

178
00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:50,680
Speaker 1: to like in the used rehearsal hall time to make

179
00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:55,280
Speaker 1: sure that that the Carl Lindner is exactly the same

180
00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:59,520
Speaker 1: Carl Lindner as Lorraine Handsbury's Carl Lindner. That just you know,

181
00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:01,520
Speaker 1: we just and we just didn't get into that. But

182
00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:04,360
Speaker 1: I think Bruce took care of us. The playwrights took

183
00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:13,800
Speaker 1: care of us, and that that um, that Carl's strange, polite, veneer, uncomfortable,

184
00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:18,560
Speaker 1: uh you know, nervous, laugh kind of man that Lorraine

185
00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:22,800
Speaker 1: Handsbury wrote is also very much, very much the character

186
00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:25,360
Speaker 1: that Bruce wrote. So so it was on the page

187
00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:28,840
Speaker 1: to sort of link like in in the most simple way,

188
00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:32,400
Speaker 1: to link those two plays together. So the character of

189
00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:37,800
Speaker 1: Carl really represents maybe the most disconcerting attitude present in

190
00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:40,720
Speaker 1: the play. But what's kind of unique about it is

191
00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:43,319
Speaker 1: that all of the characters, at some point or another,

192
00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:45,880
Speaker 1: at least almost all of them in the nineteen nine

193
00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:48,679
Speaker 1: act and the two thousand nine act say something that

194
00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:51,720
Speaker 1: they really probably shouldn't say, and that lends the whole,

195
00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:55,839
Speaker 1: the whole script to this very uncomfortable sort of feeling.

196
00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:59,560
Speaker 1: There are lots of jokes flying, but there's tension to

197
00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:03,480
Speaker 1: the the entire time, and and things that we wondered

198
00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:08,040
Speaker 1: how people, how people reacted when they saw them in person. Yeah,

199
00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:10,360
Speaker 1: and she told us about a little bit about some

200
00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:12,679
Speaker 1: of the different performances of the play. And it's actually

201
00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:17,439
Speaker 1: been staged in three different locations she's directed where she's

202
00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:20,920
Speaker 1: exactly two times in New York and two different locations

203
00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:23,679
Speaker 1: and once in l A. And McKennon kind of spoke

204
00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:27,440
Speaker 1: to how the larger Broadway audience seems more inclined to

205
00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:30,079
Speaker 1: laugh and live it up during the play. Seeing a

206
00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:33,520
Speaker 1: Broadway play, she suggests as kind of maybe more about

207
00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:37,440
Speaker 1: having a good time, and maybe audiences are expecting a

208
00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:40,720
Speaker 1: show and they're just ready to laugh. And there's also

209
00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:43,520
Speaker 1: some anonymity there you're with a lot of other people

210
00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:47,080
Speaker 1: who are laughing. But the smaller audiences for the off

211
00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:51,480
Speaker 1: Broadway stagings seemed more likely to take things pretty seriously.

212
00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:53,920
Speaker 1: They seemed to be more there for the theater, maybe

213
00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:57,360
Speaker 1: expecting something more experimental or edgy than chock full of

214
00:12:57,440 --> 00:13:00,600
Speaker 1: laugh They were there almost for the more uncomfortable parts,

215
00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:04,360
Speaker 1: it seemed. McKinnon was also telling us about some of

216
00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:07,720
Speaker 1: the different ways that people react depending on the location

217
00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:11,400
Speaker 1: that the show is too. For example, a line about

218
00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:14,000
Speaker 1: a bad commute got a lot of laughter in l

219
00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:16,280
Speaker 1: A but not quite as much in New York City,

220
00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:19,640
Speaker 1: and a line about installing a Koi pond was a

221
00:13:19,679 --> 00:13:22,520
Speaker 1: big hit in New York City since it lampoons a

222
00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:26,520
Speaker 1: certain type of person. People could identify with it, or

223
00:13:26,559 --> 00:13:29,080
Speaker 1: at least they understood what it was trying to say.

224
00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:31,800
Speaker 1: But yeah, she she said that that line about the

225
00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:34,440
Speaker 1: koi pond didn't really get a laugh at all in

226
00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:37,319
Speaker 1: l A, just because nothing at all seemed strange about

227
00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:40,640
Speaker 1: having a koi pond. Um. But she also talked a

228
00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:43,080
Speaker 1: little bit about how there are certain things she needs

229
00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:45,839
Speaker 1: to make sure of as a director to balance that

230
00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:49,840
Speaker 1: humor and the really uncomfortable issues and make sure that

231
00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:53,679
Speaker 1: those uncomfortable issues still get their play too, because I mean,

232
00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:55,360
Speaker 1: that's what the whole thing is supposed to be about.

233
00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:57,440
Speaker 1: She said that the most important thing she could do

234
00:13:57,480 --> 00:14:00,440
Speaker 1: as a director to strike that balance was to cast

235
00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:04,439
Speaker 1: good actors who had good comic timing but emotional range

236
00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:06,720
Speaker 1: as well. And then she said it's also important as

237
00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:10,600
Speaker 1: a director to orchestrate the dialogue so to pinpoint these

238
00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:13,280
Speaker 1: areas where the actors need to change what she called

239
00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:17,320
Speaker 1: the tempo um so places where the play is going

240
00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:20,440
Speaker 1: full steam ahead with jokes and then something says, somebody

241
00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:23,520
Speaker 1: says something wrong, and the tempo changes. So taking all

242
00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:26,720
Speaker 1: of this into consideration just kind of the balance between

243
00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:30,080
Speaker 1: the seriousness and humor and in different ways that different

244
00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:33,080
Speaker 1: audiences might react to the same lines. It made us

245
00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:37,840
Speaker 1: really curious what message our audiences taking away with them

246
00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:41,360
Speaker 1: after seeing Clyborn Park. And this is what McKinnon told us.

247
00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:45,600
Speaker 1: I think that Bruce isn't a message playwright, and some

248
00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:50,000
Speaker 1: audience members actually find that really difficult. Like they want

249
00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:54,600
Speaker 1: they want there to be a protagonist somewhere in the play,

250
00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:59,840
Speaker 1: or they want some character to ultimately some up there

251
00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:03,520
Speaker 1: ideally liberal point of view, you know, and sort of

252
00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:08,800
Speaker 1: slam dunk, you know, sort of the message at some point.

253
00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:11,920
Speaker 1: And Bruce Norris the playwright doesn't really do that. For us,

254
00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:14,680
Speaker 1: it's more complicated than that. So as soon as you

255
00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:18,040
Speaker 1: sort of think, oh, I'm I'm going to track this

256
00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:22,120
Speaker 1: person and hopefully this person sort of as spirit guide,

257
00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:28,040
Speaker 1: will will agree with my liberal sentiment walking through this world,

258
00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:31,040
Speaker 1: and then he starts going off the rails. It becomes

259
00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:35,520
Speaker 1: very complicated. I mean, I think Bruce's message and and

260
00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:41,120
Speaker 1: what um we like the actors, designers myself included, we're

261
00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:47,080
Speaker 1: just trying to like, like like really honor Bruce's complicated world.

262
00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:51,000
Speaker 1: And I guess the message is we like first the

263
00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:53,480
Speaker 1: first act of the nine the second act in two

264
00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:59,520
Speaker 1: thousand nine, and he really wants an audience to questions

265
00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:05,080
Speaker 1: under you know, how far have we really come when

266
00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:08,240
Speaker 1: it comes to issues of race and real estate, Black

267
00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:10,520
Speaker 1: white issues of race and real estate in this country?

268
00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:13,520
Speaker 1: And perhaps we haven't come that far that this is

269
00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:18,240
Speaker 1: still a topic of conversation, that that we as a

270
00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:22,440
Speaker 1: country don't quite have the tools to really talk about

271
00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:26,920
Speaker 1: displayed largely about in a sexual communication when it comes

272
00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:31,400
Speaker 1: to hot button issues, and we we fall apart, we

273
00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:35,880
Speaker 1: fall apart, we it becomes foot and mouth disease. So

274
00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:38,600
Speaker 1: the message isn't exactly the same. But since this play

275
00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:41,480
Speaker 1: does take some inspiration from Raisin in the Sun, we

276
00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:45,480
Speaker 1: wanted to ask McKennon what she thought Lorraine Handsbury would

277
00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:49,800
Speaker 1: think if Handsbury saw Clybring Park today. I mean, I

278
00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:55,400
Speaker 1: I hope, I hope that Lorraine Hansbury would be very excited,

279
00:16:55,520 --> 00:16:58,320
Speaker 1: like a lot of artists that I know myself included

280
00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:03,760
Speaker 1: that that that that she would be excited that her play,

281
00:17:04,320 --> 00:17:09,720
Speaker 1: you know, continues to inspire other people. Um, Bruce, Bruce

282
00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:13,480
Speaker 1: Norris has a very different voice than Lorraine Hansbury. UM

283
00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:17,320
Speaker 1: raised It in the sun is such a masterful play.

284
00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:22,200
Speaker 1: It is very complicated, but there is there is a

285
00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:27,159
Speaker 1: sense I think coming from the writer that you know

286
00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:30,920
Speaker 1: that that that while it is difficult, that there is

287
00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:33,320
Speaker 1: sort of a there like there is something of an

288
00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:42,840
Speaker 1: optimistic voice or or an optimistic attempt um in in

289
00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:46,959
Speaker 1: that play. And Bruce, I don't think he would call

290
00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:50,240
Speaker 1: himself himself a pessimist, but I think some other people do.

291
00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:53,560
Speaker 1: I think Bruce would call himself, um, I don't know,

292
00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:56,800
Speaker 1: sort of like a like a tricky realist um. And

293
00:17:56,920 --> 00:18:01,919
Speaker 1: that and that optimism isn't there um or or if

294
00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:04,000
Speaker 1: it is, it's in fits and starts and then sort

295
00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:08,280
Speaker 1: of gets denied. So maybe Lorray and Handsbury would you

296
00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:11,720
Speaker 1: know that maybe in at times say oh it makes

297
00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:14,560
Speaker 1: me uncomfortable. But but but I bet she'd embrace it

298
00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:17,359
Speaker 1: as an artist. So we hinted it this a little

299
00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:20,679
Speaker 1: bit earlier in the show that McKinnon has directed this

300
00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:23,600
Speaker 1: play in several different locations, two spots in New York,

301
00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:25,880
Speaker 1: one in l A. But we didn't mention that she's

302
00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:28,360
Speaker 1: been working with the same cast. They've been playing these

303
00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:31,240
Speaker 1: same roles, and you know, I would assume getting very

304
00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:34,840
Speaker 1: deep into character studies by this point. So we wanted

305
00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:39,400
Speaker 1: to ask her how people have changed their roles at

306
00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:42,880
Speaker 1: all over all of this time, how she's changed her

307
00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:47,480
Speaker 1: direction and what kind of direction she still offers at

308
00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:49,840
Speaker 1: this point too, for for people who have been working

309
00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:52,119
Speaker 1: on this for such a long time. And here's what

310
00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:54,400
Speaker 1: she had to say. Well, I you know, I I

311
00:18:54,440 --> 00:19:00,160
Speaker 1: had the opportunity, um to go back into a full

312
00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:04,080
Speaker 1: rehearsal process with these same actors after an almost two

313
00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:08,560
Speaker 1: year break where you know, all of us did many

314
00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:11,920
Speaker 1: other things, but we certainly didn't do anything with Claiborne

315
00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:15,560
Speaker 1: park Um. So I think we all came back sort

316
00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:20,679
Speaker 1: of to the table, you know, really really game like

317
00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:25,320
Speaker 1: we knew that we had created together something very special

318
00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:30,080
Speaker 1: and it was great actually to have that that time

319
00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:33,159
Speaker 1: away from it and to come back I think, I mean,

320
00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:35,000
Speaker 1: I mean, I'll just speak for myself, but as a

321
00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:37,600
Speaker 1: stronger director, as a stronger artist, and we got to

322
00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:41,560
Speaker 1: tackle it again. UM. Definitely in the in in the

323
00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:43,680
Speaker 1: process the second go round, I mean we just had

324
00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:47,680
Speaker 1: more time, UM, and we could talk more about backstory

325
00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:50,879
Speaker 1: and you know what what just occurred with these characters,

326
00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:53,960
Speaker 1: and you know, we could be because we already knew,

327
00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:56,560
Speaker 1: we already had built the skeleton, we already knew it worked,

328
00:19:56,640 --> 00:19:59,280
Speaker 1: quote unquote, and so we could, you know, we could

329
00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:04,359
Speaker 1: we could really of luxuriate and just go deeper emotionally UM.

330
00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:07,520
Speaker 1: And earlier talking about like that fine line between the

331
00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:10,320
Speaker 1: humor and you know, and the uglier stuff. I really

332
00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:12,439
Speaker 1: wanted to make sure that in the second round the

333
00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:16,639
Speaker 1: uglier stuff was not eclipsed. UM. So that was definitely

334
00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:21,960
Speaker 1: a rehearsal hall project. Since the play has opened on Broadway,

335
00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:23,840
Speaker 1: it opened about, I don't know, three weeks ago, a

336
00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:27,320
Speaker 1: month ago. UM. I've gone back a few times and

337
00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:30,800
Speaker 1: and and the it's it's a it's a cast of

338
00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:34,680
Speaker 1: seven and every night, obviously it is a little bit different.

339
00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:38,560
Speaker 1: Um and and and some and and performances have gotten

340
00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:42,960
Speaker 1: richer and um and and and have changed sort of

341
00:20:43,119 --> 00:20:47,240
Speaker 1: you know, the tiniest bit at the margins and UM.

342
00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:50,840
Speaker 1: I went back last week and I felt that there

343
00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:54,720
Speaker 1: were some changes that that that weren't good. And I

344
00:20:54,840 --> 00:20:57,960
Speaker 1: spoke to um, a couple of my actors and you know,

345
00:20:58,000 --> 00:20:59,639
Speaker 1: and it was it was just like inches, it was

346
00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:03,000
Speaker 1: just by degrees. But but but some of the performances

347
00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:05,879
Speaker 1: had expanded a little bit and had slowed down a

348
00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:11,840
Speaker 1: little bit. And um, and so there was more of

349
00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:16,119
Speaker 1: like at times, more of an even as opposed to

350
00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:22,000
Speaker 1: syncopated tempo in places. And um. And so I had,

351
00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:25,080
Speaker 1: you know, a phone, I had phone conversations with a

352
00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:27,920
Speaker 1: couple of actors about getting it back into shape. And

353
00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:30,600
Speaker 1: instead of making sure that the motor of the play

354
00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:35,639
Speaker 1: was was running at the speed that I think best

355
00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:40,479
Speaker 1: serves the story. UM, so you know, So so I

356
00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:43,760
Speaker 1: will do that. I will drop by, you know, every

357
00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:46,600
Speaker 1: couple of weeks or three weeks or something like that,

358
00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:52,080
Speaker 1: and and UM, hopefully I'll be you know, amazed and

359
00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:56,080
Speaker 1: proud and happy about how stuff gets deeper and richer

360
00:21:56,119 --> 00:21:59,720
Speaker 1: as this great company learns, you know, even more things

361
00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:02,800
Speaker 1: about each other and about this story. But if I

362
00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:06,160
Speaker 1: see something that is sort of like, oh, I think

363
00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:09,280
Speaker 1: we're now missing what what for me is really important

364
00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:12,720
Speaker 1: to to the evening and to the story. I have

365
00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:16,520
Speaker 1: no qualms about about giving a note, even though it's

366
00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:19,000
Speaker 1: long after we're out of rehearsal. And you know, some

367
00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:22,919
Speaker 1: of that also comes from having worked with this group

368
00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:26,760
Speaker 1: and so we trust each other, you know, I'm sure,

369
00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:30,760
Speaker 1: I'm sure that um that if I did that nightly uh,

370
00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:32,960
Speaker 1: and I wouldn't want to, but it would be very

371
00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:35,680
Speaker 1: annoying and to be very detrimental that every once in

372
00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:37,679
Speaker 1: a while I just sort of, you know, I have

373
00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:41,040
Speaker 1: to reinsert myself if if I need to. So it

374
00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:43,120
Speaker 1: was a treat to get to talk to Pam McKinnon.

375
00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:46,119
Speaker 1: But there's an even cooler treat that listeners can be

376
00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:47,840
Speaker 1: eligible for if they're going to be in the New

377
00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:51,080
Speaker 1: York City area on May thirty one. There's going to

378
00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:54,560
Speaker 1: be kind of a how Stuff Works like experience at

379
00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:57,760
Speaker 1: the performance of Clyburne Park that night, and How Stuff

380
00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:00,359
Speaker 1: Works is giving away twenty five pairs of tick gets,

381
00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:03,879
Speaker 1: And if you're one of those lucky people, lucky fifty

382
00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:06,160
Speaker 1: people who gets to go to that performance that night,

383
00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:09,280
Speaker 1: then after the show, you will get a chance to

384
00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:12,400
Speaker 1: listen to a special talkback session in which someone will

385
00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:16,199
Speaker 1: actually take contest winners through the set and how it

386
00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:20,359
Speaker 1: transforms from nineteen fifty nine to two thousand nine. And

387
00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:24,119
Speaker 1: that's a transformation that McKennon really likes to keep under

388
00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:28,239
Speaker 1: wraps during typical performances. She told us a little bit

389
00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:31,040
Speaker 1: about why keeping that hidden is so special to her.

390
00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:35,399
Speaker 1: I have a black curtain that UM goes down to

391
00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:38,800
Speaker 1: the end of the first act and hides the huge

392
00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:43,080
Speaker 1: seamed the huge scenic shift that our stage hands do

393
00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:46,520
Speaker 1: UM during the intermission, and you know the intermission. It

394
00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:52,720
Speaker 1: takes them about sixteen minutes to transform the Act one

395
00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:55,240
Speaker 1: set into the Act two set. It takes them the

396
00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:59,280
Speaker 1: entire intermission to do all this work. UM. Like staircase

397
00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:04,879
Speaker 1: units get old rolled away, fireplace units get turned around. UM. Uh.

398
00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:09,240
Speaker 1: Wallpaper that is is on like hard sheets that stuck

399
00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:13,359
Speaker 1: to magnets pop off. The new things pop on. UM. Windows,

400
00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:18,440
Speaker 1: seats get transformed, window treatments get transformed, bars go on windows,

401
00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:22,280
Speaker 1: front doors get get changed out. UM. It's it's a

402
00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:24,520
Speaker 1: it's it's a really big thing. But I obscure that

403
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:26,720
Speaker 1: from the audience with the curtain. And that's a story

404
00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:30,520
Speaker 1: choice of mine of UM. Even though now this play

405
00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:32,840
Speaker 1: has been published for a while and it won the Pulitzer,

406
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:36,080
Speaker 1: and a lot of people know that we're moving ahead

407
00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:39,040
Speaker 1: in time. There's still a certain percentage of the audience

408
00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:41,560
Speaker 1: that doesn't know. And I sort of love the reveal

409
00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:47,159
Speaker 1: of whoa, Okay, we're in a different world in Act two. Okay,

410
00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:49,600
Speaker 1: So now that you've heard what you would get to

411
00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:52,879
Speaker 1: see if you were backstage, um, and you've learned a

412
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:56,199
Speaker 1: little bit about Clyburn Park and its history. Remember you

413
00:24:56,280 --> 00:25:00,440
Speaker 1: can enter for those tickets, twenty five pairs of tickets. Um,

414
00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:02,640
Speaker 1: there are sweet Steaks is going to be starting May

415
00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:05,280
Speaker 1: twenty one and go on that week. And you can

416
00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:08,040
Speaker 1: find out more information about it by looking on the

417
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:11,160
Speaker 1: how stuff Works Twitter account, not the mist in History one.

418
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:13,600
Speaker 1: Don't go to ours, you won't find information there, but

419
00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:17,040
Speaker 1: the main house stuff Works account, which is at how

420
00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:19,720
Speaker 1: Stuff Works. And good luck to you if you're in

421
00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:22,040
Speaker 1: the New York area. Maybe we'll get to see this

422
00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:25,000
Speaker 1: place some day to pleina, I hope. So I'm actually

423
00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:27,600
Speaker 1: quite jealous. I wish that we're not eligible for this,

424
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:30,720
Speaker 1: so we can't enter the contest unfortunately, and when the

425
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:33,560
Speaker 1: tickets and get this experience, But if you get to

426
00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:35,520
Speaker 1: do it, please tell us how it is. Just let

427
00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:37,760
Speaker 1: us know how it goes. We'd love to hear about

428
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:41,560
Speaker 1: the live show and all of the back stage stuff,

429
00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:45,800
Speaker 1: so email us. We're at History Podcast at Discovery dot com.

430
00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:48,760
Speaker 1: And again, you can enter that contest at the how

431
00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:55,639
Speaker 1: stuff works Twitter account. Thanks guys for more on this

432
00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:58,320
Speaker 1: and thousands of other topics because at how stuff works

433
00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:09,399
Speaker 1: dot com. The Baden named the Land. Baden named the

434
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:13,760
Speaker 1: Land in n