1 00:00:00,360 --> 00:00:03,400 Speaker 1: I have created the most advanced AI soldier. 2 00:00:03,640 --> 00:00:07,560 Speaker 2: The weight is over tron aries now streaming on Disney Plas. 3 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:15,080 Speaker 3: We are looking for something, something you've discovered, and some 4 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:19,000 Speaker 3: of us will stop at nothing to get it ready. 5 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:21,520 Speaker 2: The countdown is complete. 6 00:00:21,200 --> 00:00:22,439 Speaker 4: Professional going back. 7 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:27,639 Speaker 2: Our directive is clear. Hang on tron aries now streaming 8 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:41,560 Speaker 2: on Disney Plas. Rady BG thirteen, Welcome back to Drilled. 9 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:47,320 Speaker 1: I'm Amy Westerveldt. We've covered a lot about propaganda and 10 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:52,120 Speaker 1: disinformation in this podcast over the years. Today, I'm pleased 11 00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:55,600 Speaker 1: to bring you an extended conversation with someone I have 12 00:00:55,720 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 1: gone to multiple times for information on this subject, Melissa Ron. 13 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:04,880 Speaker 1: She's a media studies scholar at Rutgers University. Her new book, 14 00:01:05,080 --> 00:01:09,399 Speaker 1: A Strategic Nature is one of the best most helpful 15 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:14,000 Speaker 1: things I've read on how our understanding of the environment 16 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:19,760 Speaker 1: evolved in the US, how environmental communications in particular evolved, 17 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:22,200 Speaker 1: and what that all has to do with where we're 18 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:26,479 Speaker 1: at now on the climate crisis in particular, Melissa spent 19 00:01:27,080 --> 00:01:30,800 Speaker 1: in particular Ironchik spent a large amount of time with 20 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:35,040 Speaker 1: one of our mad Men from season three E Bruce Harrison. 21 00:01:35,520 --> 00:01:38,560 Speaker 1: In the last couple of years of his life. Harrison 22 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 1: died earlier this year, in January twenty twenty one, and 23 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:46,200 Speaker 1: Aronchik spent and Ironchick was probably the last person to 24 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:52,080 Speaker 1: talk to him in depth about his contributions to Climate Spin, 25 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:56,280 Speaker 1: about his contributions to how we think and talk about 26 00:01:56,280 --> 00:02:00,480 Speaker 1: climate change. We get into all of that and a 27 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:03,960 Speaker 1: whole lot more in this conversation. I hope you enjoy it. 28 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:30,679 Speaker 1: That's coming up after this quick break, Melissa, thanks for 29 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:33,600 Speaker 1: talking to me today. I'm super excited to dig into 30 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:36,080 Speaker 1: everything about this book, but I wanted to start with 31 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:40,840 Speaker 1: asking you what prompted you to start researching and writing 32 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:42,280 Speaker 1: this book in the first place. 33 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:48,400 Speaker 4: I was thinking that the only way to understand the 34 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:53,679 Speaker 4: role of the environment in our lives is to understand 35 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:58,720 Speaker 4: how something called the environment has been invented and communicated 36 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:04,359 Speaker 4: to us throughout history. So the actual concept of the 37 00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:08,960 Speaker 4: environment as a social problem or as a moral problem 38 00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:13,519 Speaker 4: would not really come out until the nineteen sixties. And 39 00:03:13,840 --> 00:03:16,280 Speaker 4: I think a lot of people know this story, the 40 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:19,880 Speaker 4: story of the publication of Rachel Carson's book Silent Spring. 41 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:22,800 Speaker 4: I mean, it's a landmark book for a lot of reasons, 42 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:26,680 Speaker 4: but one of the big reasons was how it spoke 43 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:30,240 Speaker 4: to a public that had not previously really thought about 44 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:34,600 Speaker 4: the environment at all. So before the book itself came out, 45 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:36,960 Speaker 4: there were excerpts of the book that appeared in the 46 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:41,760 Speaker 4: New Yorker magazine, and that meant a very different readership 47 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:46,040 Speaker 4: was exposed to the ideas in Rachel Carson's book. And 48 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 4: that story that she told was an absolutely terrifying story. 49 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:57,240 Speaker 4: Silent Spring was about a landscape destroyed by pesticides where 50 00:03:57,360 --> 00:04:01,240 Speaker 4: nothing more could grow or thrive, no more birds, hence 51 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 4: the title of the book, No more Sounds in the Spring. 52 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 4: So Carson was an amazing storyteller and she reached a 53 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 4: lot of people. But of course she was not just 54 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:14,480 Speaker 4: an amazing storyteller. She worked with the Department of Fish 55 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:19,160 Speaker 4: and Wildlife for the federal government, and she was able 56 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:25,880 Speaker 4: in her book to show how government agencies were colluding 57 00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:30,919 Speaker 4: with the irresponsibility of the chemical industry and with academic 58 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 4: scientists to hide some of the really terrifying stories about 59 00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:42,560 Speaker 4: environmental destruction. So what Carson's book did was create a public. 60 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:45,720 Speaker 4: It created a public that cared about the environment and 61 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:50,640 Speaker 4: that could then identify the environment as a precious set 62 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:56,039 Speaker 4: of resources of land and air and water that we 63 00:04:56,120 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 4: needed to protect. 64 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 1: You tell this story in the early chapters of your 65 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:07,840 Speaker 1: book about these kind of two flavors of understanding nature 66 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:11,479 Speaker 1: and the environment that started to emerge the end of 67 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:14,400 Speaker 1: the nineteenth century in the US, and that really kind 68 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:17,760 Speaker 1: of went on to define how we think about nature 69 00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:22,240 Speaker 1: and the environment, mostly down to the ideas of two men, 70 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:25,320 Speaker 1: John Muir and Gifford Pinchot. I want to have you 71 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:27,719 Speaker 1: summarize that history for us here. 72 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 4: So essentially, if we want to look at the beginning 73 00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:37,560 Speaker 4: of a twentieth century national awareness about the need to 74 00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:40,680 Speaker 4: protect the natural environment, we have to look at the 75 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:45,880 Speaker 4: naturalist John Muir and the forester Gifford Pinchot. And we 76 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:50,159 Speaker 4: especially have to look at how they interacted, because each 77 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:53,279 Speaker 4: of them came to stand for a very different idea 78 00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:57,200 Speaker 4: of what nature and forests in the environment meant in 79 00:05:57,240 --> 00:06:00,240 Speaker 4: the United States. And we also need to look at 80 00:06:00,279 --> 00:06:02,800 Speaker 4: who the winner was or what the outcome was of 81 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:06,719 Speaker 4: their interaction. And to avoid the mystery, I'll tell you 82 00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:09,880 Speaker 4: the ending right now, which is Gifford Pinchot and the government. One. 83 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:16,320 Speaker 4: Gifford Pinchot was considered America's first forester in the sense 84 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 4: of somebody who was professionally trained to manage forest, to 85 00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:24,279 Speaker 4: manage nature in the United States, and that's really important 86 00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:28,480 Speaker 4: because it introduces the idea that nature is something that 87 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:32,720 Speaker 4: should be managed. Many people have heard of John Muir. 88 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 4: John Mure is considered in a way America's first naturalist, 89 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:40,960 Speaker 4: first environmentalist, even though the word the environment was not 90 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:45,360 Speaker 4: used at this time in history. But John Muir made 91 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:50,000 Speaker 4: preserving the natural environment his life's work, so we could 92 00:06:50,200 --> 00:06:54,720 Speaker 4: if we had to distill Muir's vision of nature and 93 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:58,240 Speaker 4: Pinchot's vision of nature, we would say that Muir was 94 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:02,400 Speaker 4: interested in the preservation of the natural environment, or the 95 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:06,520 Speaker 4: preservationist movement as it's come to be known, and Pinchot 96 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:10,800 Speaker 4: was invested in the idea of conservation of nature. And 97 00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 4: those two terms, if you read about them now, people 98 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:18,160 Speaker 4: tend to mush them together or they're sometimes used to synonyms. 99 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:20,440 Speaker 4: But if we think about it, in that time period, 100 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:26,280 Speaker 4: preservationism what Mures stood for, was really about protecting the 101 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 4: natural environment. That meant creating parkland, creating forests, or protecting 102 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:35,840 Speaker 4: forests and having boundaries drawn around them so that they 103 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:38,200 Speaker 4: were owned by the federal government and could not be 104 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:41,200 Speaker 4: used for any private purpose, and that you couldn't cut 105 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:43,720 Speaker 4: down the trees, you couldn't use the water for anything 106 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 4: but the enjoyment of nature, Whereas for different Pinchot, natural 107 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:56,520 Speaker 4: resources were just that resources. It was lumber that Americans 108 00:07:56,560 --> 00:08:00,600 Speaker 4: needed for development, it was water that maybe needed for 109 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:06,600 Speaker 4: serving cities that didn't have enough natural water resources. And 110 00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:10,720 Speaker 4: there was an economic benefit to protecting forests, but you 111 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:16,080 Speaker 4: had to protect them for the service of American enterprise 112 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:18,920 Speaker 4: in the American economy. So those were the two really 113 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:23,040 Speaker 4: different points of view. So one of the ways that 114 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:28,120 Speaker 4: Gifford Pinchot's vision of conservation ended up winning out was 115 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:32,080 Speaker 4: that Pincho worked in the federal government with Theodore Roosevelt, 116 00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:36,480 Speaker 4: and Theodore Roosevelt knew John Muir as well, But I 117 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:39,439 Speaker 4: don't think John Muir was ever taken quite as seriously. 118 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:42,679 Speaker 4: He was not a bureaucrat by any stretch of the imagination. 119 00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 4: He was an outdoor wilderness explorer. He you know, he 120 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:52,080 Speaker 4: was very poetic and lyrical, and he attempted to use 121 00:08:52,520 --> 00:08:56,400 Speaker 4: pr in his way to get Americans to understand the 122 00:08:56,480 --> 00:09:00,760 Speaker 4: value of nature. But the team of Gifford Pinchow as 123 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:05,360 Speaker 4: chief forester in the federal government and Theodore Roosevelt would 124 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:10,520 Speaker 4: end up dominating and defining what the public interest was 125 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:14,040 Speaker 4: when it came to the environment. Another way we could 126 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:17,960 Speaker 4: say that is it was John Muir who captured Roosevelt's 127 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:22,040 Speaker 4: imagination about the value of nature, but it was Gifford 128 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:26,600 Speaker 4: Pinchot who would ultimately win Theodore Roosevelt's favor when it 129 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:30,200 Speaker 4: came to national policy for the forests. And that just 130 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:33,800 Speaker 4: came down to, you know, Pincho's vision for forests was 131 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:38,000 Speaker 4: much more practical. It was more so to speak, scientific, 132 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:42,560 Speaker 4: and it was easier to manage. And this word management 133 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:46,480 Speaker 4: keeps coming back because it was really how the federal 134 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:49,480 Speaker 4: government came to understand what nature was for It was 135 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:53,200 Speaker 4: a resource to be managed. It was not something just 136 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:56,840 Speaker 4: beautiful out there that we should leave alone. It's really 137 00:09:56,880 --> 00:10:01,520 Speaker 4: important to just mention that neither John Muir's nor Gifford 138 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:06,120 Speaker 4: Pinchot's visions included the indigenous people who were living on 139 00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:09,679 Speaker 4: this land long before either of them came along. And 140 00:10:09,760 --> 00:10:14,960 Speaker 4: that's that entire story of what the indigenous people's on 141 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:18,400 Speaker 4: the land did with nature, how they viewed nature, their 142 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:22,120 Speaker 4: relationship with nature, that was completely ignored in this American story. 143 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:25,760 Speaker 4: One other really important feature to mention with Pinchot's vision 144 00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:28,720 Speaker 4: and why it went out, was that he was an 145 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:32,840 Speaker 4: absolute expert in managing not just natural resources, but also 146 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:36,839 Speaker 4: managing publics. From the very beginning of his life as 147 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 4: a professional forester, Pinchot was constantly promoting himself and his work. 148 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:47,160 Speaker 4: He was very aware of the value of public support 149 00:10:47,559 --> 00:10:52,040 Speaker 4: for his vision of forestry, and he used every means 150 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:58,400 Speaker 4: at his disposal to accomplish that. He wrote textbooks that 151 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:03,480 Speaker 4: he expected would be to from kindergarten on up about forestry, 152 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:05,840 Speaker 4: and indeed they were. There were thousands of copies of 153 00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:10,160 Speaker 4: his book sold. He created what we would today call 154 00:11:10,240 --> 00:11:13,320 Speaker 4: I guess press events, you know pr events, sometimes with 155 00:11:13,880 --> 00:11:17,200 Speaker 4: Teddy Roosevelt, where he would be sure to invite all 156 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:19,560 Speaker 4: of the news media of the time to cover the 157 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:23,800 Speaker 4: event when he appeared to announce a new policy or 158 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:28,000 Speaker 4: in front of an important natural resource. And he also 159 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:33,480 Speaker 4: made very close behind the scenes connections with lumber operators 160 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:36,599 Speaker 4: and others who would then of course end up supporting 161 00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:40,120 Speaker 4: Pinchot whenever he wanted a new policy to be put forward. 162 00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:45,760 Speaker 4: He was so effective at managing public opinion and at 163 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:49,720 Speaker 4: controlling what kinds of information went out to the public. 164 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:53,839 Speaker 4: That he actually got investigated by the federal government at 165 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:57,320 Speaker 4: one point because they were concerned that he was spending 166 00:11:57,360 --> 00:12:00,160 Speaker 4: too much time and too much of his per So 167 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:03,240 Speaker 4: now we're devoted to just publicity and not to the 168 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:08,800 Speaker 4: actual task of managing forestry. So Pinchell was, you know, 169 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:11,480 Speaker 4: and he was very He very handily got out of 170 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:14,520 Speaker 4: that investigation and managed to show that what he was 171 00:12:14,559 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 4: doing was absolutely in the public interest. So part of 172 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:20,360 Speaker 4: that was that he was able to show us that 173 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:24,640 Speaker 4: forestry was a public matter and that that particular vision 174 00:12:24,679 --> 00:12:27,560 Speaker 4: of forestry as a resource to be managed was the 175 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:28,840 Speaker 4: way to think about nature. 176 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:34,199 Speaker 1: Yes, so he was a really business friendly guy who 177 00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:38,520 Speaker 1: was helping to craft some of the first policies around 178 00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:40,760 Speaker 1: natural resources in the country. It's that sort of a 179 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:42,000 Speaker 1: fair assessment. 180 00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:45,240 Speaker 4: That's right. Pinchell was really the earliest example of that. 181 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:49,520 Speaker 4: And it's important to think about that because it reminds 182 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:54,760 Speaker 4: us that the state and corporations were often very very 183 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:57,240 Speaker 4: much on the same side when it came to talking 184 00:12:57,280 --> 00:13:00,360 Speaker 4: about nature and the environment. In other words, if you 185 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:04,080 Speaker 4: think about the monopoly companies of the early twentieth century, 186 00:13:04,559 --> 00:13:08,480 Speaker 4: these were mainly in heavy industry. These were in rail, 187 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:13,760 Speaker 4: in steel, and in coal, and these industries relied on 188 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 4: the favors of the government to achieve their size and 189 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:21,560 Speaker 4: their power. So as we know now, of course, those 190 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:25,400 Speaker 4: industries were also terrible for the environment. And we also 191 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:28,800 Speaker 4: know that back in that era and what we call 192 00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:33,839 Speaker 4: the progressive era, Americans were becoming increasingly worried over the 193 00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:38,520 Speaker 4: size and power of corporations, and so we could think 194 00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:45,000 Speaker 4: about how public relations was essentially designed to reassure Americans 195 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:49,480 Speaker 4: that these companies were good citizens and that their vision 196 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:53,480 Speaker 4: of how to use the environment as a resource was 197 00:13:53,559 --> 00:13:58,240 Speaker 4: the right vision. I really like the quote or the 198 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:03,839 Speaker 4: concept that the historian Roland Marshall uses where he says 199 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:07,840 Speaker 4: that pr was charged with a mission to invest corporations 200 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:12,400 Speaker 4: with a soul. That's really key, I think to understanding 201 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:17,040 Speaker 4: how that vision of nature and of the environment as 202 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:19,840 Speaker 4: something for people to use and not something to be 203 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:22,680 Speaker 4: protected came to be so popular. 204 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:27,840 Speaker 1: That just reminds me a lot of the ways that 205 00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 1: we talk about corporate personhood. And I know that oil 206 00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:36,240 Speaker 1: companies in particular have really leaned on that this idea 207 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:39,640 Speaker 1: that companies are people and that we should give them 208 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:43,320 Speaker 1: the same benefit of the doubt that we would give 209 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:49,280 Speaker 1: to individuals, or that they have souls and moral compasses 210 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:51,640 Speaker 1: and that they're really just trying to do the right thing. 211 00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:56,040 Speaker 4: I mean, what legal fiction as it's known that corporate 212 00:14:56,040 --> 00:15:00,920 Speaker 4: personhood idea. I don't know the direc legacy, but I 213 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:03,880 Speaker 4: have to imagine that it comes from this time period. 214 00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:06,320 Speaker 4: I mean, we know this from that time period that 215 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:10,760 Speaker 4: the leaders of industry, especially in the nineteenth century, were 216 00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:15,200 Speaker 4: considered the most important citizens in society. We looked up 217 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:19,200 Speaker 4: to these leaders of industry as people who only brought 218 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:23,200 Speaker 4: good things to the American public. They brought jobs, they 219 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:28,440 Speaker 4: brought welfare and employee health programs. They helped to create 220 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:34,200 Speaker 4: entire urban centers and areas with their infrastructure. So in 221 00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:37,800 Speaker 4: the progressive era, when questions started to be asked about 222 00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:42,320 Speaker 4: whether the size and power that corporate leaders had was 223 00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:46,600 Speaker 4: really such a good thing, public relations was born essentially 224 00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:50,960 Speaker 4: to restore that personhood to companies that they had enjoyed 225 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:51,960 Speaker 4: in the nineteenth century. 226 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:56,240 Speaker 1: I've always had this sense that pr sort of emerges 227 00:15:56,320 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 1: at this point in history when these captains of industry 228 00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:04,320 Speaker 1: are facing challenges from all sides, right like, you've got 229 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:08,960 Speaker 1: the journalists critiquing them, I to Tarbell, Upton Sinclair, all 230 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:13,280 Speaker 1: of that, You've got labor unions starting and asking for 231 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:16,920 Speaker 1: higher wages and better working conditions. You've got the vote 232 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:21,160 Speaker 1: extending to people who are not white land owning men. 233 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:25,520 Speaker 1: And you've got the government starting to pass some of 234 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:30,520 Speaker 1: the very first regulations on industry in the US. So 235 00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:35,920 Speaker 1: they go fairly quickly from being revered and also kind 236 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:39,880 Speaker 1: of being able to do whatever they want to being criticized, 237 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:44,160 Speaker 1: held up to scrutiny, and expected to actually act on 238 00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:47,840 Speaker 1: behalf of the public. So it seems like pr is 239 00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 1: a handy tool helped to shape the public's ideas in 240 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:54,280 Speaker 1: a way that will help industry do what it wants 241 00:16:54,320 --> 00:16:54,640 Speaker 1: to do. 242 00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:59,840 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think the entire history of this relationship between 243 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:03,320 Speaker 4: are and the environment, I see it as a cycle 244 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:05,720 Speaker 4: of exactly what you just described. So it's a cycle 245 00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:08,879 Speaker 4: where the captains of industry are indeed the captains, and 246 00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:11,719 Speaker 4: everybody looks to them to steer the ship, so to speak, 247 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:16,720 Speaker 4: and then they lose their power or their power is 248 00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:19,720 Speaker 4: questioned in some way, and public relations is brought in 249 00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:24,119 Speaker 4: to restore relationships with the public. Exactly as the term suggests, 250 00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:27,720 Speaker 4: and that is that cycle has happened again in the 251 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:32,160 Speaker 4: nineteen sixties when the environmental movements started to really gain 252 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:35,800 Speaker 4: steam and all kinds of government regulations were passed to 253 00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:39,160 Speaker 4: protect the environment. In this moment of awareness that these 254 00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:41,959 Speaker 4: companies were maybe not so great after all, really not 255 00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 4: so committed to the well being of all Americans. Once again, 256 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:49,080 Speaker 4: public relations was brought in in the early seventies to 257 00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:52,719 Speaker 4: restore the balance, so to speak, to bring corporate leaders, 258 00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:56,560 Speaker 4: captains of industry back up onto the prows of their ship. 259 00:17:57,200 --> 00:17:59,840 Speaker 4: And yeah, yeah, right. 260 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:02,840 Speaker 1: There's this kind of push and pull throughout history, right 261 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:07,639 Speaker 1: where the public will challenge what industry is doing, and 262 00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:11,360 Speaker 1: then pr will sort of help them be back that challenge. 263 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:14,119 Speaker 1: That'll work for a while, and then there will be 264 00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:17,239 Speaker 1: another challenge. I keep thinking that we're kind of in 265 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:19,600 Speaker 1: one of those moments again right now. 266 00:18:20,119 --> 00:18:23,120 Speaker 4: Yeah, we're inter reckoning right now. We're in these moments 267 00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:26,000 Speaker 4: of I think a lot of it is actually driven 268 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:30,879 Speaker 4: by people like you, by journalists who are exposing the 269 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:33,920 Speaker 4: companies for what they are, for what they're actually doing, 270 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:38,719 Speaker 4: and calling for reform. This prompts often a groundswell of 271 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:43,600 Speaker 4: reform and outrage by publics well deserved outrage, and then 272 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:45,640 Speaker 4: once we will not at all be surprised to see 273 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:49,199 Speaker 4: PR come onto the scene once again and restore the 274 00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:53,119 Speaker 4: balance we already see it in terms of big tech companies, 275 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:57,760 Speaker 4: where these companies do things like censor the worst kinds 276 00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:02,439 Speaker 4: of misinformation on their plots forms, or say they're actually 277 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:06,879 Speaker 4: working to help solve the problem, or partner with journalists 278 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:10,360 Speaker 4: and organizations to help promote certain kinds of information. Those 279 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:14,120 Speaker 4: are all really important PR maneuvers by those firms. 280 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:16,640 Speaker 1: Okay, So I want to take us back in time 281 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:20,240 Speaker 1: again and talk about one of my favorites, the first 282 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:24,600 Speaker 1: modern corporate PR, Guy iv Ledbetter Lee. 283 00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:29,760 Speaker 4: So ivy led Better Lee a very unusual name. He 284 00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:34,120 Speaker 4: lived from eighteen seventy seven to nineteen thirty four, and 285 00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:39,639 Speaker 4: he played a major role in shaping and influencing the 286 00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:45,400 Speaker 4: idea of publicity as the most legitimate form of communication 287 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:52,560 Speaker 4: in American democratic life, no small task. During his career, 288 00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:58,560 Speaker 4: Lee represented nearly every kind of big business you can imagine, 289 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:02,480 Speaker 4: both in the United States and abroad. It's a very 290 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:08,719 Speaker 4: long list. So the list includes public utilities, banks, shipping coal, 291 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:18,320 Speaker 4: oil metals, sugar, tobacco, meat packing, breakfast, cereals, soap, cement, rubber, 292 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:25,480 Speaker 4: and chemicals, in addition to major organizations like foundations, universities, 293 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:30,359 Speaker 4: and charities. So that's I don't think too many pr 294 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:34,359 Speaker 4: people could claim that many kinds of clients. What I 295 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:39,080 Speaker 4: really did was also found and advised trade associations, and 296 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:42,960 Speaker 4: that was key to his success as well, because trade 297 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:48,520 Speaker 4: associations are responsible for maintaining standards for the industries they represent. 298 00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:53,480 Speaker 4: They interpret what government regulators say companies can and cannot do. 299 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:58,119 Speaker 4: So if you represent clients in the railway industry and 300 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:02,119 Speaker 4: then you create the trade association that enforces the rules 301 00:21:02,119 --> 00:21:05,639 Speaker 4: for the railway industry, well your clients will be pretty 302 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:10,399 Speaker 4: pleased with you, say the least Lee. At the beginning 303 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:14,080 Speaker 4: of his career, nearly all of Lee's clients fit into 304 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:20,360 Speaker 4: two categories public utilities, which was railroads, electricity companies, public transit. 305 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:25,320 Speaker 4: But also then the energy and infrastructure required to support 306 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:29,480 Speaker 4: those public utilities. So, as you said, the coal mine operators, 307 00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:34,439 Speaker 4: the shippers, and the steelmakers. And what Lee managed to 308 00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:39,080 Speaker 4: do was to promote this idea that we rely on 309 00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:43,200 Speaker 4: energy and its infrastructure and we cannot live without it. 310 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:46,760 Speaker 4: That's such an important idea that is still the kind 311 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:51,399 Speaker 4: of conversation we're having today when we talk about alternative energy. 312 00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:55,920 Speaker 4: And I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that 313 00:21:56,040 --> 00:22:01,200 Speaker 4: what Ivy Le did for the railway companies is the same. 314 00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:04,600 Speaker 4: He created a playbook that we are still using today, 315 00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:08,440 Speaker 4: or that public relations people and company leaders are still 316 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:13,639 Speaker 4: using today when they try to promote oil as an 317 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:19,040 Speaker 4: ongoing energy source. So in Lee's time, in the early 318 00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:23,320 Speaker 4: twentieth century, there was, as I said earlier, there was 319 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:27,760 Speaker 4: national concern over the abuses of power by monopoly interests, 320 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:31,000 Speaker 4: and there were a lot of calls for reform, and 321 00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:34,200 Speaker 4: public utilities were not exempt from those calls for reform. 322 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:38,840 Speaker 4: There were a lot of campaigns calling for government ownership 323 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:42,600 Speaker 4: of the companies and the land that they occupied. And 324 00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:46,080 Speaker 4: so what Ivy Lee came up with, the idea he 325 00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:50,080 Speaker 4: came up with was to show that industrial power was 326 00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:54,959 Speaker 4: directly serving the public interest. And we can look at 327 00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:57,520 Speaker 4: a couple of events in particular to show how he 328 00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:02,879 Speaker 4: did this. One was in nineteen thirteen nineteen fourteen, Ivy 329 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:07,520 Speaker 4: Lee was trying to support the railroads as they called 330 00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:11,560 Speaker 4: for a freight rate increase, so as you can imagine, 331 00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:15,000 Speaker 4: that was not very popular at that time. Now, Ivyley 332 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:19,320 Speaker 4: had been publicity expert for the Pennsylvania Railroad since nineteen 333 00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:22,600 Speaker 4: oh six, and he had worked on several other railroad 334 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:26,600 Speaker 4: accounts as well, and he also helped found and advise 335 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:32,000 Speaker 4: the Association of Railroad Executives and the Bureau of Railroad Economics. 336 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:36,200 Speaker 4: So Ivyley had this idea. When the freight rate increase 337 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:39,639 Speaker 4: was proposed, of course, there was public outcry. You know, 338 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:42,760 Speaker 4: we're talking about regulating these industries, not about giving them 339 00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:47,960 Speaker 4: more money. What he did was to turn the railways 340 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:54,280 Speaker 4: into an information machine. In other words, rather than hiding 341 00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:59,239 Speaker 4: behind their corporate leader or just saying nothing when there 342 00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:03,240 Speaker 4: was a public out cry, Ivy Lee created public support 343 00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:06,760 Speaker 4: for the railways by having the railways come out in 344 00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:10,000 Speaker 4: front and communicate with all of the reasons that they 345 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:13,920 Speaker 4: could come up with to support them. So Lee placed 346 00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:18,280 Speaker 4: ads in trade journals, he issued circulars and pamphlets. That 347 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:22,480 Speaker 4: was the usual stuff. But then he also created events 348 00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:26,440 Speaker 4: where journalists were invited and railroad executives would be there 349 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:29,639 Speaker 4: to give exclusive interviews about what they were trying to 350 00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:33,720 Speaker 4: do and why. Lee and his team also wrote news 351 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:38,480 Speaker 4: editorials and articles giving reasons for the proposed rate hike, 352 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:42,240 Speaker 4: and they placed those news editorials and articles in both 353 00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:47,560 Speaker 4: the large metropolitan dailies and also in smaller local publications. 354 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:50,880 Speaker 4: They reached somewhere in the vicinity of twenty two thousand 355 00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:54,919 Speaker 4: news outlets with that work. Lee was, however, not satisfied 356 00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:58,360 Speaker 4: with just putting information into the newspapers, so he ended 357 00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:02,760 Speaker 4: up writing and mailing personal letters directly to the people 358 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:07,040 Speaker 4: that he called leaders of opinion. That included congressmen and 359 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:13,679 Speaker 4: state legislators. It included mayors, It included college presidents, economists, bankers, 360 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:19,679 Speaker 4: and clergymen, among others. Finally, to reach everyday passengers, he 361 00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:24,119 Speaker 4: put bulletins in railway stations and left information folders in 362 00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:29,280 Speaker 4: passenger railway cars. So one of the things we need 363 00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:33,400 Speaker 4: to understand here in terms of how successful this campaign was, 364 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:39,080 Speaker 4: was that ivyly wanted ordinary individuals to feel connected to 365 00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:42,639 Speaker 4: the larger issues that were being lobbied in Congress, and 366 00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:45,159 Speaker 4: by reaching out to them by putting bulletins in the 367 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:49,639 Speaker 4: railway stations and newsletters in the train cars, he managed 368 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:54,040 Speaker 4: to convince those people to also then become part of 369 00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:58,040 Speaker 4: the public that had to say in what kinds of 370 00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:03,000 Speaker 4: decisions got made in Washington. So while Thee's campaign was 371 00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:07,480 Speaker 4: organizing meetings with you know, special audiences, he was also 372 00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:11,600 Speaker 4: trying to get a letter writing campaign going by ordinary, 373 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:14,880 Speaker 4: everyday individuals, people who just rode the rails to get 374 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:17,160 Speaker 4: where they were trying to go. And once you had 375 00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:21,000 Speaker 4: that kind of public support behind a campaign, it became 376 00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:25,919 Speaker 4: really hard to justify turning it down once it got 377 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:30,399 Speaker 4: into Congress. So those letters of support, you know, and 378 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:33,960 Speaker 4: of course, being Ivy Lee, not only did he get 379 00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:36,960 Speaker 4: people to write letters of support, he then obtained copies 380 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:40,320 Speaker 4: of those letters of support and reprinted them in the media. 381 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:43,879 Speaker 4: So what ivy Le did was create and coordinate an 382 00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:48,480 Speaker 4: unbelievably unified campaign through the railways pushing through the freight 383 00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:52,080 Speaker 4: rate hike as something that the public absolutely wanted. 384 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:16,400 Speaker 1: Okay, And then I know that another one of these 385 00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:19,680 Speaker 1: kind of pr grades is someone that you spent quite 386 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:24,080 Speaker 1: a bit of time talking to and researching in his 387 00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:29,760 Speaker 1: later years, E. Bruce Harrison. So tell us about who E. 388 00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:30,960 Speaker 1: Bruce Harrison was. 389 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:37,040 Speaker 4: So E Bruce Harrison is the consummate or was, I'm 390 00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:41,199 Speaker 4: sorry to say, was the consummate public relations professional in 391 00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:46,200 Speaker 4: the United States. And I say that because he checks 392 00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:51,000 Speaker 4: all the boxes in terms of what is underlying the 393 00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:55,040 Speaker 4: power of public relations in American life. One is that 394 00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:58,240 Speaker 4: he was virtually unknown to most people. That is, you know, 395 00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:01,800 Speaker 4: e Bruce Harrison is not a household name by any stretch. 396 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:07,680 Speaker 4: He was incredibly powerful. He had hundreds of clients in 397 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:11,040 Speaker 4: all kinds of industries. I dare say as many kinds 398 00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:14,360 Speaker 4: of industries as ivy Le did, actually, although it's much 399 00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:18,160 Speaker 4: much less well known and Ebrews Harrison was also he 400 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:23,080 Speaker 4: was just incredibly charming. The charisma of this individual I 401 00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:26,639 Speaker 4: think was in a way at the heart or the 402 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:30,120 Speaker 4: secret to his success, because he was so good at 403 00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:34,280 Speaker 4: talking to absolutely everyone. He always made you feel like 404 00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:38,400 Speaker 4: he was really listening to you. He really took you seriously, 405 00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:41,480 Speaker 4: he was very grateful for the time you spent with him, 406 00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:44,360 Speaker 4: and he was just so charming. And I really do 407 00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:47,760 Speaker 4: think there's a lot to be said about how public 408 00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:50,760 Speaker 4: relations people. The most successful public relations people are people 409 00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:56,000 Speaker 4: who fit that persona So depending on who you talk to, 410 00:28:56,600 --> 00:29:01,440 Speaker 4: Ebrewce Harrison is either considered the founder of environmental PR 411 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:06,360 Speaker 4: or the founder of anti environmental pr and you know, 412 00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:10,520 Speaker 4: you pick depending on what side you're on, essentially, but 413 00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:16,120 Speaker 4: either way, I think the signature move of Ebruce Harrison 414 00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:21,920 Speaker 4: was to give companies, especially the most environmentally contentious companies, 415 00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:26,880 Speaker 4: a language and a voice to speak about the environment 416 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:32,959 Speaker 4: and be taken seriously by their publics. His nineteen ninety 417 00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:36,920 Speaker 4: two book Going Green kind of says it all. The 418 00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:41,240 Speaker 4: subtitle of the book is how to Communicate your Company's 419 00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:46,800 Speaker 4: environmental commitment, And that was precisely what E. Bruce Harrison 420 00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:50,920 Speaker 4: did throughout his career. And the key was that he 421 00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:56,920 Speaker 4: looked at how companies could communicate an environmental commitment. They 422 00:29:56,960 --> 00:30:01,360 Speaker 4: were not necessarily walking the talk, they were not necessarily 423 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:07,520 Speaker 4: enforcing behaviors or changing their production style to demonstrate an 424 00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:11,400 Speaker 4: environmental commitment, but they got really good at communicating their 425 00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:12,440 Speaker 4: environmental commitment. 426 00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:18,800 Speaker 1: So interesting, Okay, So I know that one of E. 427 00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:22,680 Speaker 1: Bruce Harrison's big things in general was to really push 428 00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:28,920 Speaker 1: the idea of corporate sustainability and you know, advise his 429 00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:31,400 Speaker 1: clients to highlight all of the good things they were 430 00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:34,400 Speaker 1: doing about the environment. I'm wondering if you can tell me, 431 00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:37,720 Speaker 1: if you can share a bit about I'm wondering what 432 00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:40,920 Speaker 1: you found out about him from you know, both his 433 00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:45,680 Speaker 1: documents and from talking to him about sort of where 434 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:48,920 Speaker 1: that idea came from and why it was so effective. 435 00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:52,560 Speaker 4: Well, okay, So one of the most important things that 436 00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:56,720 Speaker 4: Ebruce Harrison did to earn that title of the kind 437 00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:59,959 Speaker 4: of founder of environmental pr or green prs he liked 438 00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:04,120 Speaker 4: to call it, was to create an environmental coalition. And 439 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:09,080 Speaker 4: this coalition was called the National Environmental Development Association or 440 00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:14,240 Speaker 4: NIDA NIDA. You know, the name was appropriately vague. It 441 00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:16,520 Speaker 4: was meant to be vague so that it would not 442 00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:20,920 Speaker 4: be obvious what side of the aisle, so to speak. 443 00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:26,480 Speaker 4: This organization or coalition sat on. NITA was a coalition 444 00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:32,600 Speaker 4: of a number of industry groups and labor groups that 445 00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:37,240 Speaker 4: were trying in the nineteen seventies to mitigate or soften 446 00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:44,520 Speaker 4: federal environmental restrictions. And when Bruce Harrison founded his own 447 00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:48,720 Speaker 4: public relations firm in nineteen seventy three called the Bruce 448 00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:53,360 Speaker 4: Harrison Company, NIDA was its first client. So again you 449 00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:56,840 Speaker 4: have to really admire a person who starts his own 450 00:31:56,880 --> 00:32:00,440 Speaker 4: agency with a client that he has created himself, which 451 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:04,320 Speaker 4: was a coalition of people, you know, companies, that he 452 00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:07,880 Speaker 4: had worked with previously, Companies that were involved in the 453 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:12,160 Speaker 4: Chemical Manufacturers Association where he had begun his public relations career. 454 00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:15,640 Speaker 4: Companies that were connected in some way to people he 455 00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:18,640 Speaker 4: had met while working on the hill. So this was 456 00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:23,080 Speaker 4: a kind of insider group, and the group grew quite 457 00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:25,360 Speaker 4: a bit over the years. Over the next twenty to 458 00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:30,920 Speaker 4: thirty years. Under this umbrella coalition of MEEDA were single 459 00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:34,920 Speaker 4: issue groups, and by single issue groups, I mean groups 460 00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:39,040 Speaker 4: that were organized around a specific piece of environmental legislation 461 00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:42,360 Speaker 4: that they wanted to chip away at. So you had 462 00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:46,440 Speaker 4: the NEDA Clean Air Act project, and you had the 463 00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:50,600 Speaker 4: need a Clean Water Act coalition, and so on. There 464 00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:54,680 Speaker 4: there were I think six or seven MEEDA coalitions that 465 00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:59,920 Speaker 4: ended up being developed, and each of these smaller coal 466 00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:05,560 Speaker 4: did a number of things. They would initially identify the 467 00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:10,240 Speaker 4: problems that the company members had with that piece of legislation. 468 00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:14,200 Speaker 4: You know, what aspects of the legislation were harming corporate profits, 469 00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:17,960 Speaker 4: what aspects were problematic in other ways in terms of 470 00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:23,680 Speaker 4: requiring reporting from these companies or costing them additional you know, 471 00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:26,400 Speaker 4: they had to pay extra to kind of change something 472 00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:29,600 Speaker 4: about their production process, and so on. The second thing 473 00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:32,440 Speaker 4: that this coalition would then do would be to identify 474 00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:38,640 Speaker 4: and contact the local industry or labor congressional representatives in 475 00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:43,040 Speaker 4: their home states. Then they would try to reach executive 476 00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:47,440 Speaker 4: agency officials at the federal and state levels who were 477 00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:52,560 Speaker 4: responsible for administering that piece of legislation. Next came the 478 00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:57,920 Speaker 4: press offensive, the publications that would be distributed, the information 479 00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:03,640 Speaker 4: fact sheets, the lobbying points. But in addition to media relations, 480 00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:07,680 Speaker 4: a really important feature of what NITA did was grassroots 481 00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:11,520 Speaker 4: lobbying grassroots communications. I don't think it's fair to say 482 00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:16,239 Speaker 4: that Bruce Harrison created the idea of grassroots communication, but 483 00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:21,200 Speaker 4: he certainly expanded and developed it in a very important way. 484 00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:25,680 Speaker 4: So what his coalition members would do would would be 485 00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:30,000 Speaker 4: to talk to these representatives on the ground in their 486 00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:34,319 Speaker 4: local among their local constituencies, and make sure that these 487 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:40,120 Speaker 4: local constituents understood the value of voting against the legislation 488 00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:43,640 Speaker 4: or voting to soften the legislation in some way to 489 00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:49,480 Speaker 4: profit the companies that were operating in those jurisdictions. And 490 00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:52,920 Speaker 4: it was it was enormously effective. I mean, there are 491 00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:56,480 Speaker 4: so many documents that I have, you know, piles all 492 00:34:56,520 --> 00:35:00,520 Speaker 4: over my library at home, of the test simony that 493 00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:03,680 Speaker 4: they delivered the papers that they authored, you know, the 494 00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:07,240 Speaker 4: white papers, the way they got their messages into the media, 495 00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:10,680 Speaker 4: the spokespeople that they worked with who carried the messages 496 00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:13,800 Speaker 4: and wrote off eds. So it was a very modern 497 00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:17,720 Speaker 4: day Ivy League kind of process where it was made 498 00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:22,560 Speaker 4: very clear to all kinds of publics and stakeholders why 499 00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:27,920 Speaker 4: they should support softening the environmental legislation. I think it 500 00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:30,160 Speaker 4: would be unfair to say, you know, he invented the 501 00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:34,000 Speaker 4: idea of corporate social responsibility. That would be a little 502 00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:36,440 Speaker 4: too much. But what we can say is that he 503 00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:41,680 Speaker 4: did invent the idea of sustainable communication, which was again 504 00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:45,160 Speaker 4: so genius when you think about it, because what a 505 00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:49,839 Speaker 4: sustainable communication means. It means communicating in such a way 506 00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:54,760 Speaker 4: as to maintain sustainable relationships with the people that matter, 507 00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:56,279 Speaker 4: the people who are going to vote for you, or 508 00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:58,719 Speaker 4: the people who are going to support whatever it is 509 00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:02,600 Speaker 4: your clients are doing. It does not mean sustainable practices 510 00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:06,920 Speaker 4: or behaviors to protect the environment. So Bruce Harrison pioneered 511 00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:11,000 Speaker 4: this idea of sustainable communication and used every means at 512 00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:16,000 Speaker 4: his disposal to enforce that that was what companies needed 513 00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:20,120 Speaker 4: to do to convey their environmental commitment. What we see 514 00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:24,319 Speaker 4: today with all kinds of campaigns by some of even 515 00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:28,960 Speaker 4: the very worst environmental offenders, you know, the exonmobiles of 516 00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:34,120 Speaker 4: the world is all about sustainability communication. And I do 517 00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:36,240 Speaker 4: think it's fair in that case to say that Bruce 518 00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:42,440 Speaker 4: Harrison was the pioneer in that universe of communicating sustainably. 519 00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:46,759 Speaker 1: Okay, and then that leads into his work kind of 520 00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:50,640 Speaker 1: leading up to and at the very first international climate summit, 521 00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:53,960 Speaker 1: the Real Earth Summit in nineteen ninety two tell us 522 00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:57,040 Speaker 1: about what Ebruce Harrison was getting up to in Rio. 523 00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:05,160 Speaker 4: So Ebruce Harrison was already working internationally by the time 524 00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:09,200 Speaker 4: the Earth Summit rolled around the United Nations conference in Rio, 525 00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:15,280 Speaker 4: and sustainable development was the theme that everyone was talking 526 00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:19,960 Speaker 4: about at that conference. So Harrison was already working with 527 00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:24,600 Speaker 4: a lobby group in Brussels and was creating a kind 528 00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:29,720 Speaker 4: of franchise network that was called Envirocom, whereby his firm 529 00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:33,000 Speaker 4: in Washington would partner with or you know, sort of 530 00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:36,360 Speaker 4: license is a better way putting. His firm would license 531 00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:42,360 Speaker 4: the rights to use his sustainable communications strategies in whatever 532 00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:49,040 Speaker 4: country they were located, and he was working with countries Italy, France, Germany, 533 00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:53,000 Speaker 4: the Netherlands, and he also had franchises in Mexico. He 534 00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:56,360 Speaker 4: was working with He was really everywhere, So that's important 535 00:37:56,400 --> 00:38:00,759 Speaker 4: to know because he already had a network of companies 536 00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:05,840 Speaker 4: and clients in Europe who supported the environmental communications strategies 537 00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:09,319 Speaker 4: that he was working with. So he was invited as 538 00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:14,440 Speaker 4: communications council to the CEOs who were participating at that 539 00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:18,440 Speaker 4: Earth Summit in Rio in nineteen ninety two, and it 540 00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:23,640 Speaker 4: was at the events run by business surrounding that conference, 541 00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:27,120 Speaker 4: of which there were many, that he presented his paper 542 00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:30,520 Speaker 4: on the concept of sustainable communication, and he had very 543 00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:34,520 Speaker 4: willing ears of all the CEOs from all over the 544 00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:38,839 Speaker 4: world who were interested in this idea. He was also 545 00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:42,840 Speaker 4: chairman of the International Public Relations Association at that time, 546 00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:47,240 Speaker 4: and the International Public Relations Association was also holding events 547 00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:50,640 Speaker 4: around the Earth Summit. The environment was a very very 548 00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:54,120 Speaker 4: hot topic at that time, of real concern to corporate leaders, 549 00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:57,400 Speaker 4: and I think it's also really important to remember that 550 00:38:57,560 --> 00:39:01,160 Speaker 4: Maurice Strong, who was the organizer of that United Nations conference, 551 00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:06,800 Speaker 4: was committed to having business participate in the conference. Maurice 552 00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:11,560 Speaker 4: Strong was quite compelled or convinced by the idea that 553 00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:14,919 Speaker 4: if you did not have business as a key stakeholder 554 00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:18,399 Speaker 4: in these conversations about sustainable development, that you would never 555 00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:21,680 Speaker 4: be able to enforce it. You needed to have business 556 00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:25,960 Speaker 4: at the table and in agreement, and that aspect ended up. 557 00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:28,319 Speaker 4: I mean, there's a lot of books written about how 558 00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:31,080 Speaker 4: problematic that was, how it ended up creating a real 559 00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:36,279 Speaker 4: compromise in terms of what environmentalism could be. Because you 560 00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:39,600 Speaker 4: had to have business buy in. It meant for some 561 00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:42,960 Speaker 4: people that the entire conference ended up being a bit 562 00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:45,359 Speaker 4: of a sham, or as kind of very watered down 563 00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:48,360 Speaker 4: version of what it could have been. But the point 564 00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:52,160 Speaker 4: is that because business communities had been invited to the conference, 565 00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:54,800 Speaker 4: and because they knew that their buying was so important, 566 00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:59,320 Speaker 4: they planned extensively in the lead up to the conference 567 00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:02,760 Speaker 4: to be able to present what they called their own 568 00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:08,520 Speaker 4: Sustainable Development Charter, a kind of again non binding, non 569 00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:13,520 Speaker 4: not legal document, but a kind of voluntary self regulating 570 00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:17,279 Speaker 4: document with a set of rules that business agreed to 571 00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:22,879 Speaker 4: operate by when it came to environmental sustainability. And as 572 00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:25,960 Speaker 4: you can imagine, this charter was you know, it did 573 00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:30,640 Speaker 4: not contain anything that would have really transformed how companies 574 00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:33,360 Speaker 4: did business. It was a very business as usual document, 575 00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:37,400 Speaker 4: but it paid a lot of lip service to the 576 00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:41,759 Speaker 4: idea of going green, being sustainable, being very concerned about 577 00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:45,359 Speaker 4: the environment. And because they got out in front of 578 00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:49,239 Speaker 4: the actual the other the actual conference and the other 579 00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:52,640 Speaker 4: types of events that were being designed, they were really 580 00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:56,239 Speaker 4: able to put that document forward and stave off other 581 00:40:56,400 --> 00:41:01,400 Speaker 4: kinds of more binding legislation or more draconian regulations that 582 00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:03,719 Speaker 4: would have caused problems for these companies' profits. 583 00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:08,960 Speaker 1: I know that E. Bruce Harrison really learned a lot 584 00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:13,920 Speaker 1: from sort of his first foray into environmental pr which 585 00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:19,200 Speaker 1: was actually trying to counter Rachel Carson's book in the sixties. 586 00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:21,640 Speaker 1: Tell us a little bit about that story. I'm very 587 00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:24,400 Speaker 1: curious to hear what he said to you about it 588 00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:28,280 Speaker 1: in terms of the impression that that left on him 589 00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:31,160 Speaker 1: and how it informed what he ended up doing to 590 00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:36,040 Speaker 1: try to combat regulations on climate change. 591 00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:40,359 Speaker 4: Oh. Absolutely, I would say that that was perhaps Harrison's 592 00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:45,279 Speaker 4: biggest lesson. So, yeah, just to get that backstory a 593 00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:50,440 Speaker 4: little bit. So, Harrison starts working at the Manufacturing Chemists Association, 594 00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:53,840 Speaker 4: which is now called the American Chemistry Council, so he 595 00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:58,799 Speaker 4: starts working there as their environmental Sorry, I should back up, 596 00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:01,960 Speaker 4: he starts working there as just a PR person. And 597 00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:05,719 Speaker 4: that's important because there was not really a sense of 598 00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:09,480 Speaker 4: this environmental importance until Carson's book came out. But the 599 00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:12,600 Speaker 4: book came out maybe fifteen months later, so very shortly 600 00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:17,720 Speaker 4: after Harrison arrives at the Manufacturing Chemists Association, Rachel Carson's 601 00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:22,480 Speaker 4: book appears, and Chaos and zus and people are extremely 602 00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:26,080 Speaker 4: concerned about the environment, and they're especially concerned about pesticides, 603 00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:29,480 Speaker 4: which was the focus of Rachel Carson's book. So the 604 00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:34,600 Speaker 4: Manufacturing Chemist Association was absolutely caught off guard when that happened. 605 00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:37,520 Speaker 4: They did not see that coming and it was an 606 00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:41,040 Speaker 4: utter disaster, as you can imagine for their trade association. 607 00:42:41,719 --> 00:42:45,920 Speaker 4: So it's at that moment that Harrison is appointed the 608 00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:49,839 Speaker 4: Environmental Information Manager and sort of given a team of 609 00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:56,080 Speaker 4: other PR people who worked at companies like DuPont, Dell, Monsanto, 610 00:42:56,400 --> 00:43:01,040 Speaker 4: and Shell and told you designed the PR response to 611 00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:03,680 Speaker 4: Rachel Carson, this is a disaster, and you guys head 612 00:43:03,719 --> 00:43:07,800 Speaker 4: up the PR response to fix it. And as you said, Amy, 613 00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:10,240 Speaker 4: it did not work. It just didn't work. They tried 614 00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:16,040 Speaker 4: absolutely everything to discredit Rachel Carson herself, to discredit the 615 00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:20,080 Speaker 4: findings in the book, to discredit all of the scientific 616 00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:24,360 Speaker 4: evidence and her role as a scientist. And it failed, 617 00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:27,879 Speaker 4: and it partly failed because of this momentum that had 618 00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:31,000 Speaker 4: been building up. It's not as though Rachel Carson's book 619 00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:35,360 Speaker 4: dropped out of nowhere. There had been increasingly throughout the 620 00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:40,440 Speaker 4: nineteen fifties concerns about industry science. There had been concerns 621 00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:44,480 Speaker 4: about pollution. There were growing cases of pollution and smog 622 00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:48,640 Speaker 4: and cities. But the book really did catalyze this movement, 623 00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:53,920 Speaker 4: and when Harrison tried to offset that momentum, he was 624 00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:57,200 Speaker 4: not successful. So what did Harrison learn? I think from 625 00:43:57,239 --> 00:43:59,759 Speaker 4: that time He spoke with me at great length about 626 00:43:59,840 --> 00:44:03,760 Speaker 4: that moment as being a defining moment, because he felt 627 00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:08,640 Speaker 4: that the big mistake had been not understanding how to 628 00:44:08,719 --> 00:44:13,680 Speaker 4: communicate with the public, to convey a sense of compromise 629 00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:18,520 Speaker 4: and a sense of consensus among all of the interested parties. 630 00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:23,400 Speaker 4: If you just try to discredit existing knowledge by saying 631 00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:26,719 Speaker 4: it's wrong, you'll meet with a lot of resistance. You're 632 00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:29,400 Speaker 4: essentially saying to people you don't know what you're talking about, 633 00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:34,400 Speaker 4: or your beliefs that your ideas, your understanding is not valid, 634 00:44:35,080 --> 00:44:37,840 Speaker 4: and that's no way to get people to listen to you. 635 00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:41,279 Speaker 4: So what Harrison understood and what ended up defining the 636 00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:45,160 Speaker 4: rest of his career was in developing public relations strategies 637 00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:48,640 Speaker 4: where consensus was the order of the day. It was 638 00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:53,040 Speaker 4: always about the spirit of compromise that required everyone having 639 00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:57,160 Speaker 4: a voice, everyone sitting at the table to discuss environmental problems. 640 00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:01,880 Speaker 4: And for Harrison that included his clients. His clients deserved, 641 00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:06,239 Speaker 4: in his eyes, a voice at the table. And to me, 642 00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:10,400 Speaker 4: that's one of the biggest liabilities. That's essentially the beginning 643 00:45:10,480 --> 00:45:13,040 Speaker 4: of the end as far as environmental policy in the 644 00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:15,840 Speaker 4: United States is concerned, because what you have if you 645 00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:19,360 Speaker 4: always have business voices at the table, is a sense 646 00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:22,560 Speaker 4: of the self interest of business, which is always going 647 00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:25,680 Speaker 4: to be at odds with the need to protect the environment. 648 00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:30,080 Speaker 1: So, in looking at everything that you've been looking at 649 00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:35,759 Speaker 1: over the years, is there any one or maybe you know, 650 00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:40,000 Speaker 1: a few kind of fixes or updates to how we 651 00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:45,560 Speaker 1: understand the environment or how maybe environmental issues are communicated 652 00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:52,240 Speaker 1: that you think could really So, in looking at everything 653 00:45:52,239 --> 00:45:55,040 Speaker 1: that you've been looking at over the past several years, 654 00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:59,040 Speaker 1: where do you think are sort of the key points 655 00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:05,000 Speaker 1: where the framing of the story around the environment and 656 00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:10,799 Speaker 1: humans and sort of our relationship really kind of went 657 00:46:10,840 --> 00:46:14,439 Speaker 1: off the rails in a way that you could see 658 00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:17,040 Speaker 1: sort of leading to the impact that we're at on 659 00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:18,399 Speaker 1: climate right now. 660 00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:22,400 Speaker 4: There's so much to unpack there, just our relationship to 661 00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:26,799 Speaker 4: nature and how right from the beginning, of course, the 662 00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:31,600 Speaker 4: conceptions of nature that became dominant in the American imagination 663 00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:37,360 Speaker 4: about preservation and conservation really didn't even from the beginning 664 00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:41,360 Speaker 4: include the indigenous peoples who were on the land long 665 00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:45,680 Speaker 4: before those conversations started to take place, So right from 666 00:46:45,719 --> 00:46:48,000 Speaker 4: the beginning, I would say, there was a kind of 667 00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:54,120 Speaker 4: manipulation of the way that Americans thought about nature and 668 00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:57,279 Speaker 4: what that was for them. But I think also a 669 00:46:57,360 --> 00:46:59,920 Speaker 4: really important argument that we try to make in the 670 00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:05,520 Speaker 4: book is that the origins of the public relations industry 671 00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:10,600 Speaker 4: in the United States is connected to environmental problems, because 672 00:47:10,600 --> 00:47:13,480 Speaker 4: it was right around the turn of the nineteenth to 673 00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:19,000 Speaker 4: the twentieth century that we saw companies realizing that they 674 00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:22,720 Speaker 4: had a problem, and that problem was often about having 675 00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:26,719 Speaker 4: the people and their communities where they were operating being 676 00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:30,360 Speaker 4: uncomfortable with the size of the companies or the impact 677 00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:34,080 Speaker 4: these companies were having on reorganizing the community or the 678 00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:38,480 Speaker 4: land they were taking up. There was no we say 679 00:47:38,520 --> 00:47:40,319 Speaker 4: at the beginning of the book, you know, there was 680 00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:42,879 Speaker 4: no such thing as an environmental problem in those days. 681 00:47:42,880 --> 00:47:45,640 Speaker 4: Of course that isn't true, but what we mean is 682 00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:49,840 Speaker 4: there was no conception of the environment as something in 683 00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:54,000 Speaker 4: need of protection. So there were just individual sets of 684 00:47:54,080 --> 00:47:58,240 Speaker 4: problems connected to nature, but most of those problems were 685 00:47:58,600 --> 00:48:02,399 Speaker 4: eliminated in the name of, for instance, manifest destiny, that 686 00:48:02,719 --> 00:48:06,720 Speaker 4: you know, it's right and normal for humans to extend 687 00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:11,080 Speaker 4: their power over wider and wider swaths of land, and 688 00:48:11,120 --> 00:48:15,560 Speaker 4: that the waterways were about forging trade routes. You know, 689 00:48:15,600 --> 00:48:17,560 Speaker 4: there was no sense, of course at that time, that 690 00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:20,239 Speaker 4: these were resources in need of protection in some way. 691 00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:22,600 Speaker 4: That would only come much much later, really, with the 692 00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:27,120 Speaker 4: environmental movement in the sixties and the problems then that 693 00:48:27,600 --> 00:48:29,960 Speaker 4: started to surface in the sixties, and the ways that 694 00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:33,879 Speaker 4: companies were taken to task then was really, i would say, 695 00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:39,040 Speaker 4: the first time that people actually conceptualized nature as something 696 00:48:39,160 --> 00:48:43,120 Speaker 4: that was scarce and something that was very limited and 697 00:48:43,160 --> 00:48:46,640 Speaker 4: something that could be degraded. Or eroded in the need 698 00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:50,640 Speaker 4: of protection. And it was then that companies were situated 699 00:48:50,719 --> 00:48:54,400 Speaker 4: more as the enemies of that desire to protect nature, 700 00:48:54,440 --> 00:48:57,840 Speaker 4: that they were really actively destroying nature, and that people 701 00:48:57,880 --> 00:49:01,239 Speaker 4: needed to do something to fight back. And I would 702 00:49:01,239 --> 00:49:05,640 Speaker 4: say that moment was, in a way the beginning of 703 00:49:06,440 --> 00:49:08,319 Speaker 4: it was the beginning of a real sense of us 704 00:49:08,360 --> 00:49:12,960 Speaker 4: in them in environmental politics, and as we now know 705 00:49:13,360 --> 00:49:16,799 Speaker 4: that us in them has been very entrenched in our 706 00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:21,200 Speaker 4: thinking about the environment and environmental protection. Uptil now. 707 00:49:30,239 --> 00:49:33,520 Speaker 1: That's it for this time. I hope you enjoyed that 708 00:49:33,600 --> 00:49:37,279 Speaker 1: conversation with Melissa. We will stick a link to her 709 00:49:37,360 --> 00:49:40,400 Speaker 1: book in the show notes as well. I highly recommend 710 00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:43,360 Speaker 1: checking that out if you're interested in this stuff. I 711 00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:45,120 Speaker 1: also want to give a big shout out to our 712 00:49:45,239 --> 00:49:53,120 Speaker 1: latest Patreon supporters. They include Ben shot, Elsa Gonzierowski, Kevin McIntyre, 713 00:49:53,320 --> 00:50:01,080 Speaker 1: Brophie Lee Boldfield, Zoe Johnstone, r W. 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Particularly it helps 723 00:50:55,360 --> 00:50:59,080 Speaker 1: us to do things like hire a new Australia reporter, 724 00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:01,480 Speaker 1: which we have done. You will hear her on the 725 00:51:01,560 --> 00:51:04,600 Speaker 1: next episode. That's Lindall Rollins. She'll be coming at you 726 00:51:04,719 --> 00:51:07,759 Speaker 1: next week. It also makes it possible for us to 727 00:51:07,800 --> 00:51:11,200 Speaker 1: do additional reporting this month. It's also helping us pay 728 00:51:11,280 --> 00:51:16,960 Speaker 1: our exorbitantly expensive media liability insurance bill, which is more 729 00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:22,600 Speaker 1: than twelve thousand dollars for the year, because apparently insurance 730 00:51:22,640 --> 00:51:28,839 Speaker 1: companies don't want to cover investigative reporting anymore, and especially 731 00:51:28,960 --> 00:51:33,120 Speaker 1: as they told me, especially things about the environment. So yeah, 732 00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:36,080 Speaker 1: you're helping us do all of that stuff. Patreon supporters 733 00:51:36,160 --> 00:51:42,200 Speaker 1: do get various merchandise items as well as the extra content, 734 00:51:42,560 --> 00:51:45,840 Speaker 1: and I am working on bringing more bonus content to 735 00:51:46,120 --> 00:51:48,520 Speaker 1: Patreon as well. So keep an eye out for that 736 00:51:48,600 --> 00:51:52,000 Speaker 1: in the months ahead. Thank you again for listening and 737 00:51:52,040 --> 00:51:54,600 Speaker 1: for all of the support. We really appreciate it. See 738 00:51:54,640 --> 00:51:55,200 Speaker 1: you next time.