WEBVTT - Bloomberg Businessweek Weekend - November 28th, 2025 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:07.240 Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News. 0:00:08.640 --> 0:00:13.000 This is Bloomberg Business Week Daily reporting from the magazine 0:00:13.000 --> 0:00:17.599 that helps global leaders stay ahead with insight on the people, companies, 0:00:17.640 --> 0:00:22.520 and trends shaping today's complex economy, plus global business, finance 0:00:22.560 --> 0:00:25.880 and tech news as it happens. The Bloomberg Business Week 0:00:25.960 --> 0:00:31.320 Daily Podcast with Carol Masser and Tim Stenebek on Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:32.000 --> 0:00:34.800 Hi everyone, Happy Thanksgiving and welcome to the Bloomberg Business 0:00:34.840 --> 0:00:38.840 Week Weekend Podcast. We are normally so focused on bringing 0:00:38.880 --> 0:00:42.320 you everything from Wall Street and politics and anything from 0:00:42.360 --> 0:00:44.640 the world of business, that we're always grateful when we 0:00:44.680 --> 0:00:47.960 can take a step back and focus on other important issues, 0:00:48.120 --> 0:00:50.040 especially on this Thanksgiving weekend. 0:00:50.360 --> 0:00:52.600 In this hour, we bring you to Boston and to 0:00:52.640 --> 0:00:55.480 the work that's being done at the Boston Children's Hospital. 0:00:55.680 --> 0:00:58.120 It's really a healthcare hub for all of New England. 0:00:58.120 --> 0:01:00.640 It's at the forefront of medical research and treatment and 0:01:00.680 --> 0:01:04.280 that includes cutting edge tech for orthopedic surgery and also 0:01:04.520 --> 0:01:06.400 using AI in medicine. 0:01:06.560 --> 0:01:09.080 That's all coming up in the first hour. It's some 0:01:09.120 --> 0:01:11.319 really great conversations. We were Tim and I were both 0:01:11.319 --> 0:01:14.560 blown away by our visit there. Then coming up in 0:01:14.600 --> 0:01:16.440 our second hour, Well, it's a little bit of a 0:01:16.440 --> 0:01:20.399 holiday special. We've got some travel, hosting and drinks. We 0:01:20.440 --> 0:01:22.640 also get an update on the domestic travel market with 0:01:22.680 --> 0:01:24.840 the CEO of Travel and Leisure. 0:01:25.000 --> 0:01:27.080 Plus a CEO who you can count on to be 0:01:27.160 --> 0:01:30.399 candid when she stops by, Christina Stembel, the founder and 0:01:30.440 --> 0:01:33.560 CEO of farm Girl Flowers. She joined us on getting 0:01:33.600 --> 0:01:36.160 ready for the holiday season and the health of the consumer. 0:01:36.319 --> 0:01:38.400 Also, we have a drink with the CEO of the 0:01:38.440 --> 0:01:41.240 spirit's company, Kraftco. At a time when the industry's facing 0:01:41.240 --> 0:01:42.080 a lot of headwinds. 0:01:42.080 --> 0:01:44.880 That's coming up a drinker too. I saw the way 0:01:44.880 --> 0:01:45.399 you poured that. 0:01:46.600 --> 0:01:48.640 All right, All that's coming up in the second hour. 0:01:48.760 --> 0:01:50.720 Two all that to come. First though, we head to 0:01:50.760 --> 0:01:53.960 Boston Children's Hospital. It's the leading recipient of pediatric research 0:01:53.960 --> 0:01:56.960 funding from the National Institutes of Health. It's also the 0:01:56.960 --> 0:01:59.960 primary pediatric teaching hospital for Harvard Medical School. 0:02:00.280 --> 0:02:02.920 We're so grateful to them for hosting us. And first up, 0:02:02.920 --> 0:02:06.840 we've got a conversation around medical advancements using artificial intelligence 0:02:07.120 --> 0:02:10.200 and the importance of providing a comforting environment for patients 0:02:10.320 --> 0:02:11.120 and staff alike. 0:02:11.440 --> 0:02:14.320 That's what doctor Joan La Rovere is trying to achieve. 0:02:14.480 --> 0:02:17.600 She's senior vice president. She's also interim Chief Medical Officer 0:02:17.639 --> 0:02:20.880 of Boston Children's She's also the co founder and president 0:02:20.919 --> 0:02:24.560 of the NGO, the Virtue Foundation. It's delivering healthcare to 0:02:24.600 --> 0:02:27.760 over twenty five countries. We began our conversation with the 0:02:27.760 --> 0:02:30.840 description of the room where we broadcasted from earlier this month. 0:02:31.280 --> 0:02:34.280 We're in the hail Roof garden on the tenth floor 0:02:34.320 --> 0:02:36.800 of the Hale Building. The Cardiac I See You that 0:02:36.840 --> 0:02:40.200 I work in is two and three floors below us, 0:02:40.240 --> 0:02:42.880 because we cover two floors our Cardiac I See You, 0:02:43.680 --> 0:02:47.840 And we need spaces like this for families to be 0:02:47.919 --> 0:02:53.040 able to step away and really, you know, think and decompress, 0:02:53.760 --> 0:02:57.800 and for staff. You know, these very challenging complex patients 0:02:57.840 --> 0:03:00.079 that we're taken care of in this building. Are the 0:03:00.160 --> 0:03:03.639 anatal Intensive care unit is here or Cardiac I See 0:03:03.680 --> 0:03:07.880 You is here. We have operating rooms in this building. 0:03:07.960 --> 0:03:11.440 You know, there's a lot of the cath labs are here. 0:03:11.480 --> 0:03:14.760 So it's wonderful that we can have these magical spaces 0:03:15.040 --> 0:03:18.120 where you can just feel that you're in a PEDIAFTERC 0:03:18.120 --> 0:03:20.720 hospital and there's a place to relax and think. 0:03:20.919 --> 0:03:24.160 Can I just say, it's like you're sitting on a tree, 0:03:24.360 --> 0:03:26.680 like a tree bench. There's like, I don't know, is 0:03:26.720 --> 0:03:28.680 this a rainbow. It feels like above us. It's pretty 0:03:28.720 --> 0:03:30.040 it's pretty cool, you know. 0:03:30.760 --> 0:03:33.720 Carol mentioned the energy that we feel when we walk 0:03:33.760 --> 0:03:37.640 into a space such as Boston Children's and we're reminded 0:03:37.640 --> 0:03:41.160 that it's it's not just a teaching hospital, a research hospital, 0:03:41.200 --> 0:03:44.600 it's also a place that treats kids from really all 0:03:44.640 --> 0:03:49.840 over the world. I'm wondering how you prioritize where resources go, 0:03:50.000 --> 0:03:53.480 whether it goes to treating patients right now versus thinking 0:03:53.560 --> 0:03:58.360 about research, thinking about development, thinking about ways to actually 0:03:58.400 --> 0:04:01.880 help patients in the future, versus working with them right now. 0:04:01.960 --> 0:04:03.640 How do you allocate those resources? 0:04:03.760 --> 0:04:06.160 Well, that has always been part of the DNA of 0:04:06.320 --> 0:04:11.520 Boston Children's Hospital. It's been our mission. We deliver the highest, 0:04:11.640 --> 0:04:17.560 best quality clinical care. Really that is the foundation of 0:04:17.600 --> 0:04:20.920 it all. And you see that, you know the motto 0:04:20.920 --> 0:04:23.719 of where the world comes for answers. There's a lot 0:04:23.760 --> 0:04:28.479 of complex patients from the Boston area of Massachusetts, New England. Obviously, 0:04:28.520 --> 0:04:33.240 we provide primary services for all levels of care for 0:04:33.360 --> 0:04:37.159 children in this community, However, there are many from across 0:04:37.160 --> 0:04:40.479 the United States and across the world who really seek 0:04:40.720 --> 0:04:44.359 that type of care and come to us, usually the 0:04:44.400 --> 0:04:47.560 most complex cases, and I think that's really where we thrive. 0:04:48.320 --> 0:04:51.720 And the other piece of our DNA is the science 0:04:52.120 --> 0:04:54.480 we as you talked in the beginning. 0:04:54.920 --> 0:04:57.320 That makes a difference, right when there's science involved. I 0:04:57.320 --> 0:05:01.080 feel like it's practition. Yes, you're dealing with patients, but 0:05:01.120 --> 0:05:02.880 it's people who are like, I want to understand how 0:05:02.880 --> 0:05:03.400 this works. 0:05:04.000 --> 0:05:07.760 That's everybody here. Yeah, that's the doctors, that's the nurses, 0:05:07.880 --> 0:05:11.960 that's the social workers, that's the physical therapists, that's the 0:05:12.000 --> 0:05:17.039 respiratory therapist, it's the pharmacist. I just could keep going. 0:05:17.480 --> 0:05:20.760 So I think that's what draws people to work here 0:05:20.800 --> 0:05:24.719 and to stay here, because that purpose that we're gonna 0:05:24.839 --> 0:05:27.120 actually change things and we're going to be able to 0:05:27.240 --> 0:05:29.360 find newer ways of doing things. We're going to help 0:05:29.400 --> 0:05:34.000 more children survive but also thrive, and that takes a 0:05:34.040 --> 0:05:37.120 real concerted effort, and you need the science here with 0:05:37.200 --> 0:05:38.159 the clinical. 0:05:37.839 --> 0:05:39.360 One of the things I think when you joined Tim 0:05:39.400 --> 0:05:42.000 and I back in New York and listen, everybody's talking 0:05:42.000 --> 0:05:45.039 about AI and I know that but I think we 0:05:45.160 --> 0:05:48.360 all are thinking about what it could do for medicine 0:05:48.440 --> 0:05:51.440 and R and D and innovation. And I guess what 0:05:51.440 --> 0:05:54.360 we're trying to understand too is what's the reality of 0:05:54.400 --> 0:05:58.599 what AI is used within the medical community or R 0:05:58.640 --> 0:06:01.720 and D specifically? Where is it today? And you, as 0:06:01.720 --> 0:06:05.719 someone who understands this space so well, and I'm curious 0:06:05.720 --> 0:06:07.360 the conversations you guys have, where do you think you 0:06:07.440 --> 0:06:09.280 could go? Well? 0:06:10.400 --> 0:06:13.159 AI has been a very important part of Boston Children's 0:06:13.160 --> 0:06:16.920 Hospital for a long time. This isn't something new. We 0:06:17.080 --> 0:06:22.039 have incredible research groups and an incredible innovation team here 0:06:22.320 --> 0:06:26.279 who've been really standing up AI initiatives for a very 0:06:26.320 --> 0:06:28.680 long time. We talked about some of the work I 0:06:28.720 --> 0:06:31.280 personally have done in terms of you know, Virtue Foundation 0:06:31.400 --> 0:06:33.880 and the Global Health AI mapping and being able to 0:06:33.920 --> 0:06:35.239 match resource and need. 0:06:35.680 --> 0:06:39.200 You work with Yeah, firms that are like specifically in AI. 0:06:39.520 --> 0:06:41.920 Yes, with data breaks and data robak. I you're building 0:06:41.920 --> 0:06:45.719 those real platforms that people can use. But I think about, 0:06:46.720 --> 0:06:49.320 for example, when chat GPT first came out, we had 0:06:49.360 --> 0:06:53.080 Boston GPT immediately we were looking to get that behind 0:06:53.080 --> 0:06:55.240 our firewalls. How can we integrate that, How can we 0:06:55.320 --> 0:06:59.360 use that for real purpose and improving both the care 0:06:59.360 --> 0:07:00.839 that we get to pay since but how can we 0:07:00.960 --> 0:07:04.760 use AI to also discover new things? I think the 0:07:05.480 --> 0:07:07.680 levels of data that we have, and I think you 0:07:07.800 --> 0:07:10.800 talked upon in the beginning in terms of rare diseases, 0:07:10.920 --> 0:07:16.360 genetic diseases, we are the epicenter of that, and we've 0:07:16.400 --> 0:07:21.040 already been extremely successful in bringing new therapies to market 0:07:21.080 --> 0:07:25.200 for children. But when I look at the infrastructure that 0:07:25.240 --> 0:07:27.720 we're building, and I think you've had doctor Wendy Chung 0:07:27.840 --> 0:07:29.800 come and speak, and she's heating up. 0:07:29.760 --> 0:07:30.520 A lot of that work. 0:07:31.120 --> 0:07:33.600 I think her best days are ahead of us, and 0:07:33.880 --> 0:07:36.400 AI is unlocking that type of potential. 0:07:37.000 --> 0:07:39.600 I like hearing that the optimism about our best days 0:07:39.640 --> 0:07:41.400 being ahead of us. And I think about, just even 0:07:41.440 --> 0:07:44.240 during your career, how much treatments have changed in a 0:07:44.280 --> 0:07:48.480 pretty short time. I'm curious about the connection between kids 0:07:48.480 --> 0:07:52.880 and adults and treating children. And of course, if kids 0:07:52.920 --> 0:07:55.400 are healthy, then they turn into healthy adults. But this 0:07:55.480 --> 0:07:57.720 is a children's hospital that does a lot of research, 0:07:57.760 --> 0:08:01.080 it does a lot of teaching. Also, are there learnings 0:08:01.120 --> 0:08:04.720 that can be taken from what works with kids and 0:08:04.800 --> 0:08:08.040 even applied to a larger population as not just those 0:08:08.120 --> 0:08:10.640 kids grow up, but as adults also need treatment. 0:08:11.720 --> 0:08:14.200 I think there's two points that strike me there. One 0:08:14.240 --> 0:08:17.920 is that the decisions they were making early in life 0:08:18.160 --> 0:08:21.640 have long term impact. It's something I've thought about my 0:08:21.920 --> 0:08:25.440 entire career in the cardiac space and cardiac intensive care. 0:08:26.160 --> 0:08:29.240 The decisions to have surgery on day two or day four, 0:08:29.760 --> 0:08:32.679 the decisions to use this drug or that drug, all 0:08:32.720 --> 0:08:35.360 of those things are shaping your long term self. But 0:08:35.440 --> 0:08:37.199 it was very hard to be able to look at 0:08:37.200 --> 0:08:39.760 and analyze that type of data until you've opened up 0:08:39.840 --> 0:08:43.640 big data AI. So I think again along the lines 0:08:43.679 --> 0:08:46.360 of our best days are ahead of us, that we're 0:08:46.400 --> 0:08:49.080 going to be able to see so much more through that. 0:08:49.440 --> 0:08:52.800 And then you said the innovations. Now many patients that 0:08:52.920 --> 0:08:56.720 I took care of are adults. Right, we have this 0:08:56.880 --> 0:09:02.439 huge growing adult population that we provide care for. Science 0:09:02.720 --> 0:09:06.000 is that's discovered here, it's in a pediatric hospital, but 0:09:06.040 --> 0:09:09.839 it's bringing forth therapies that are actually treating adults. So 0:09:10.000 --> 0:09:12.920 I think it's it's incredible to see how this innovation 0:09:13.040 --> 0:09:14.880 engine drives so much. 0:09:16.040 --> 0:09:17.880 If you could change one thing just got about thirty seconds. 0:09:17.880 --> 0:09:19.840 If you could change one thing in terms of the 0:09:19.840 --> 0:09:21.960 work that you guys are doing and the R and 0:09:22.000 --> 0:09:24.160 D that would maybe make it easier. 0:09:24.559 --> 0:09:26.640 What would it be, make it easier? 0:09:27.679 --> 0:09:31.960 Okay backward. If you could change one thing though that 0:09:32.720 --> 0:09:34.600 would help you guys and what you're working on. It 0:09:34.600 --> 0:09:36.280 sounds like you don't need it. Sounds like you've got 0:09:36.280 --> 0:09:37.520 a great team, and we have. 0:09:37.520 --> 0:09:41.760 A great team, but we're always needing, you know, support 0:09:41.840 --> 0:09:48.040 and engagement and we're just trying to drive the next 0:09:48.160 --> 0:09:52.439 level and partnerships to move in that direction. We are 0:09:52.520 --> 0:09:55.760 the leading children's hospital, so we're doing well, but we're 0:09:55.800 --> 0:09:58.760 always trying to push the envelope of what we can do. 0:09:59.240 --> 0:10:01.560 Yeah, it's fast. You could feel it. I felt, you know, 0:10:01.640 --> 0:10:02.200 like walking in. 0:10:02.400 --> 0:10:03.600 You can write the purpose. 0:10:03.720 --> 0:10:06.760 It was busy, it was lots of families, lots of kids, 0:10:06.800 --> 0:10:09.080 and yeah, everybody on a mission. 0:10:09.120 --> 0:10:11.080 It's a privilege to be part of that mission. 0:10:11.360 --> 0:10:13.240 Well, thank you so much, thank you, thank you for 0:10:13.280 --> 0:10:15.080 inviting us, and good to get some more time with you. 0:10:15.360 --> 0:10:18.800 Doctor Joan la Rovere. She is an interim Chief Medical 0:10:18.840 --> 0:10:22.280 Officer at Boston Children's Hospital, Director of Innovation and Outcomes. 0:10:23.280 --> 0:10:29.400 So delighted to talk with you. 0:10:29.400 --> 0:10:33.400 You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Weekdaily Podcast. Catch us 0:10:33.480 --> 0:10:36.920 live weekday afternoons from two to five pm Eastern. Listen 0:10:36.960 --> 0:10:40.520 on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app, 0:10:40.640 --> 0:10:42.440 or watch us live on YouTube. 0:10:43.400 --> 0:10:45.920 Now, we know AI has been the talk of here. 0:10:46.080 --> 0:10:47.880 Actually it's been the talk of is it almost three 0:10:47.920 --> 0:10:50.520 years already here? Yeah? Yeah, it's really nuts. It's nunds 0:10:50.600 --> 0:10:53.120 up a lot of AI when it comes to moving markets, 0:10:53.200 --> 0:10:56.920 analyzing data and automating simple tasks, but it may also 0:10:57.040 --> 0:10:59.600 impact neurosurgery in kids. 0:11:00.080 --> 0:11:03.080 On that, we were joined by doctor Lisa Baird, director 0:11:03.120 --> 0:11:06.360 of Neurosurgical Oncology and co director of the Brain Tumor 0:11:06.400 --> 0:11:08.200 Center at Boston Children's Hospital. 0:11:08.640 --> 0:11:11.560 I take care of kids that have branch tumors and 0:11:12.000 --> 0:11:16.800 it's all ages. All ages, yeah, from infants to really 0:11:16.800 --> 0:11:22.840 young adults, but all through childhood and work with a 0:11:22.960 --> 0:11:25.920 phenomenal team here. Requires a huge team to take care 0:11:25.960 --> 0:11:30.880 of these kids. They're very complex diseases and we work 0:11:30.960 --> 0:11:33.680 on all aspects of them, so active treatment. We do 0:11:33.760 --> 0:11:37.040 a lot of scientific research, we run clinical trials. We 0:11:37.120 --> 0:11:40.320 really support these kids not only through their therapeutic journal journey, 0:11:40.320 --> 0:11:44.679 but through survivorship and surveillance afterwards. So it's a long 0:11:44.760 --> 0:11:46.600 journey for them and we really try to support them 0:11:46.640 --> 0:11:47.800 at every stage. 0:11:47.840 --> 0:11:51.480 How are clinical trials involving children different than clinical trials 0:11:51.520 --> 0:11:53.720 involving other age populations. 0:11:55.040 --> 0:11:58.880 Well, cancer in children is very very different. The diseases 0:11:58.920 --> 0:12:03.079 are different, the implications are different, especially with brain tumors. 0:12:03.320 --> 0:12:05.520 Why is that? Is it development because of where the 0:12:05.520 --> 0:12:06.240 brain is or what? 0:12:06.480 --> 0:12:09.920 Partially? I mean we're dealing with patients that have developing brains. 0:12:10.040 --> 0:12:12.720 I mean there are very different implications for that. But 0:12:12.760 --> 0:12:16.400 also the diagnoses vary quite a bit. You know, the 0:12:16.760 --> 0:12:19.440 common diseases we see in childhood brain cancer are very 0:12:19.600 --> 0:12:23.480 very different than that in adult cancer, and they require 0:12:23.480 --> 0:12:27.280 different treatments and the support and you know, network needs 0:12:27.280 --> 0:12:29.240 to be different. We have to support these kids through 0:12:29.280 --> 0:12:35.880 developmental stages, through hormonal development, through cognitive development, emotional development. 0:12:36.640 --> 0:12:39.720 You know, the family needs are different, and you know, 0:12:39.760 --> 0:12:44.800 the diseases require very specific therapies. One thing historically that 0:12:44.840 --> 0:12:48.280 has happened is because pediatric cancer has not been as 0:12:48.280 --> 0:12:52.840 well supported. Historically, we have had to extrapolate data and 0:12:52.880 --> 0:12:56.160 treatments from the adult world and it just doesn't work, 0:12:56.520 --> 0:12:56.880 you know. 0:12:57.120 --> 0:13:01.720 I have a good friend in the same her son 0:13:01.760 --> 0:13:04.400 went through it and unfortunately it didn't work out well. 0:13:04.520 --> 0:13:07.040 But when she started doing research, she realized there's just 0:13:07.120 --> 0:13:11.920 no money, no funding. And they actually started a foundation 0:13:12.040 --> 0:13:14.520 to kind of but selling kids, selling cookies and like, 0:13:14.640 --> 0:13:18.520 just to try and drum up money and interest and attention. 0:13:19.080 --> 0:13:20.959 And we talk about it with women that R and 0:13:21.040 --> 0:13:22.560 D like you just don't see it as much and 0:13:22.600 --> 0:13:26.560 it's getting slowly better. But with kids, why is it 0:13:26.920 --> 0:13:30.440 that it's lagged in terms of time and money and effort, 0:13:30.559 --> 0:13:33.280 Not here obviously, but elsewhere. 0:13:33.960 --> 0:13:38.440 Yeah, I mean, we definitely rely on philanthropy hugely to 0:13:38.480 --> 0:13:40.800 make advancements in the field. But I think you know, 0:13:41.400 --> 0:13:47.280 historically the numbers are lower. The financial support from government 0:13:47.280 --> 0:13:51.600 has been different. It follows volume, as does industry. You know, 0:13:51.720 --> 0:13:57.240 there's a complex, you know, complex reasons for that. But yeah, 0:13:57.280 --> 0:14:00.280 there needs to be a shift and focus and and 0:14:00.320 --> 0:14:03.319 more attention on specific pediatric treatments. 0:14:03.720 --> 0:14:07.040 We are talking a lot about treatments, and it makes 0:14:07.080 --> 0:14:10.480 me wonder about if we understand what causes this stuff 0:14:10.480 --> 0:14:13.520 in the first place. And certainly treatments in recent years 0:14:13.360 --> 0:14:16.880 have gotten so much better. In gene therapy, has gotten better, 0:14:18.480 --> 0:14:22.440 but I'm wondering if we have an understanding in the 0:14:22.440 --> 0:14:25.560 medical community about why some kids get sick and why 0:14:25.600 --> 0:14:26.080 some don't. 0:14:26.480 --> 0:14:29.920 Yeah, there have been huge advancements in pediatric brain tumors. 0:14:30.120 --> 0:14:32.360 It's really one of the most exciting fields right now 0:14:32.400 --> 0:14:35.840 because of how many things have really moved forward in 0:14:35.840 --> 0:14:38.320 the field. And so we know so much more about 0:14:38.320 --> 0:14:41.720 the biology of these tumors and the genetic underpinnings to them, 0:14:42.120 --> 0:14:45.680 and can really drill down with each individual tumor to 0:14:45.760 --> 0:14:48.400 find out what the molecular change has been in the 0:14:48.440 --> 0:14:51.200 cells that is driving tumor growth. And that's really helped 0:14:51.280 --> 0:14:54.320 us understand them and opened up a whole new field 0:14:54.480 --> 0:14:59.160 of individual treatments. And so, you know, every tumor is different. 0:14:59.200 --> 0:15:01.560 In some tumors, we've discovered that there may be a 0:15:01.680 --> 0:15:04.360 cell of origin that the child is born with a 0:15:04.360 --> 0:15:06.840 lot of tumors. We don't understand why some kids are 0:15:06.840 --> 0:15:11.000 getting them and some don't. Some may have familial implications 0:15:11.040 --> 0:15:13.960 and some may have environmental We don't understand everything, but 0:15:14.440 --> 0:15:16.440 we're learning more and more every day, and we know 0:15:16.600 --> 0:15:19.240 so much more about the individual genetics of the tumor. 0:15:19.320 --> 0:15:21.800 Could we get to a point within our lifetimes where 0:15:22.040 --> 0:15:25.240 there is some sort of screening for kids when they're 0:15:25.240 --> 0:15:28.480 born or in their early days that helps identify what 0:15:28.560 --> 0:15:32.000 they could be susceptible too, and then we could allow 0:15:32.120 --> 0:15:35.520 for different different treatments ahead of that to prevent it 0:15:35.560 --> 0:15:36.440 actually from happening. 0:15:36.680 --> 0:15:38.880 Definitely, I think so. And it may not be for 0:15:38.920 --> 0:15:41.760 every tumor, but I think we're already getting close to 0:15:41.840 --> 0:15:45.160 that for certain diagnoses where we know specific things that 0:15:45.360 --> 0:15:48.800 you know, we can potentially screen for, and we're finding 0:15:49.040 --> 0:15:54.080 certain you know, germline mutations that are you know, familial hereditary. 0:15:55.520 --> 0:15:57.600 So yeah, I think we may get to that point 0:15:57.640 --> 0:16:00.200 where we're screening is better for all tumors, but we're 0:16:00.280 --> 0:16:02.160 very close for certain types of tumors. 0:16:02.400 --> 0:16:05.640 Is there differences in boys and girls when it comes 0:16:05.680 --> 0:16:08.600 to either tumors or what impacts. 0:16:08.160 --> 0:16:11.120 For some Yeah, for some diagnoses and some have you know, 0:16:11.200 --> 0:16:13.960 greater percentages with boys and some with girls. It really 0:16:13.960 --> 0:16:16.640 just depends on the diagnosis and many many its equivalent. 0:16:16.920 --> 0:16:19.360 I am also curious about, like you guys seem to 0:16:19.400 --> 0:16:21.200 certainly take a family approach, and you have to when 0:16:21.240 --> 0:16:25.160 it's kids, Like what's involved when you've got specific therapies, 0:16:25.200 --> 0:16:27.960 and it's not it's leading up to the surgery or 0:16:28.320 --> 0:16:29.280 whatever the treatment is. 0:16:29.280 --> 0:16:31.160 In now, the treatment of these kids takes a village. 0:16:31.160 --> 0:16:34.040 We have a huge multi disciplinary team. I mean we 0:16:34.120 --> 0:16:40.680 have neurosurgeons, neurooncologists, neurologists, the neuropathologists, geneticists, neurorediologists, and we 0:16:40.720 --> 0:16:45.680 also have you know, the rehabilitation experts with physical occupational therapy, 0:16:45.800 --> 0:16:49.680 the neuropsychologists and endochronologists. I mean, there are so many 0:16:49.760 --> 0:16:53.920 different expertise, you know, fields that are required to take 0:16:53.960 --> 0:16:56.440 care of these kids because brain tumors really affect every 0:16:56.480 --> 0:16:58.920 single aspect of their life and have the potential to 0:16:58.960 --> 0:17:03.520 affect every aspect of their physical and neurodevelopment. And so 0:17:04.320 --> 0:17:06.480 you know, we are really fortunate here to have so 0:17:06.640 --> 0:17:09.720 much expertise that we're able to really individualize the team 0:17:09.800 --> 0:17:11.560 needed for each specific child. 0:17:12.359 --> 0:17:16.080 Thank you so much. This is heavy stuff. Thank you 0:17:16.119 --> 0:17:19.200 so much. Really appreciate it. Doctor Lisabert, Director of Neurosurgical 0:17:19.440 --> 0:17:21.359 on collegen co Director of the Brain Tumor Center at 0:17:21.359 --> 0:17:23.160 Boston Children's Hospital. This is Bloomberg. 0:17:24.680 --> 0:17:28.520 This is the Bloomberg Business Week Daily Podcast. Listen live 0:17:28.640 --> 0:17:32.200 each weekday starting at two PM Eastern on Applecarplay and 0:17:32.200 --> 0:17:35.080 Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app. You can also 0:17:35.200 --> 0:17:38.520 listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station, 0:17:38.880 --> 0:17:41.439 Just say Alexa Play Bloomberg eleven thirty. 0:17:42.200 --> 0:17:45.760 Neurological development and research is so key, especially in children, 0:17:45.800 --> 0:17:49.760 because healthy brain development can influence outcomes for the rest 0:17:49.760 --> 0:17:50.480 of our lives. 0:17:50.840 --> 0:17:54.320 Doctor Ellen Grant is Director of Fetal Neonatal Neuroimaging and 0:17:54.359 --> 0:17:57.760 Developmental Science at Boston Children's Hospital. There, she leads to 0:17:57.800 --> 0:18:01.359 seventy person Neuroimaging and Computation no science center that's working 0:18:01.359 --> 0:18:04.640 to develop tools to better detect and understand brain physiology 0:18:04.640 --> 0:18:09.320 and development. The goal improve cognitive behavior and neurological outcomes 0:18:09.320 --> 0:18:12.800 and fetuses, infants and toddlers, brain imaging, and children. If 0:18:12.800 --> 0:18:14.919 we have a better understanding of the brain and fetal 0:18:14.920 --> 0:18:17.639 development and for babies and toddlers, what will that allow 0:18:17.800 --> 0:18:20.720 us to understand what does it prevent, what does it treat? 0:18:21.320 --> 0:18:23.840 Well, everything begins in uterul pretty much, so your life 0:18:23.880 --> 0:18:26.840 is an arc from infancy or one you're conceived through 0:18:26.880 --> 0:18:30.280 to adulthoods So the more we can understand the early development, 0:18:30.320 --> 0:18:32.399 the more we can start to understand how we make 0:18:32.400 --> 0:18:34.720 sure children are on the right trajectory. So the goal 0:18:34.840 --> 0:18:37.960 is to characterize brain development very early on, so we 0:18:38.040 --> 0:18:40.640 tell the very earliest point when to start to deviate 0:18:40.640 --> 0:18:43.120 from a normal trajectory so we can get things back 0:18:43.160 --> 0:18:46.600 on tracked early as possible. And ideally we want in 0:18:46.640 --> 0:18:49.080 future to be able to prevent diseases from happening, not 0:18:49.200 --> 0:18:51.680 just try to deal with them and try to correct 0:18:51.680 --> 0:18:53.600 them later on when the damage is partly done. 0:18:53.680 --> 0:18:55.919 So how early can we do it today and detect 0:18:55.920 --> 0:18:58.760 that there's something wrong? How early realistically do you think 0:18:58.800 --> 0:18:59.520 we can get it too? 0:18:59.720 --> 0:19:04.560 Yeah, we start looking at fetuses at about eleven fifteen 0:19:04.600 --> 0:19:06.840 weeks something around there, at the earliest, right closer to 0:19:06.880 --> 0:19:10.280 around eighteen weeks, we start to characterize brain development, you know, 0:19:10.320 --> 0:19:13.040 eighteen nineteen weeks or so, So it begins quite early 0:19:13.320 --> 0:19:15.920 when we start to see and look at early brain development. 0:19:16.160 --> 0:19:18.080 Well, you and your team did a study a few 0:19:18.160 --> 0:19:20.920 years ago that gave your results to argue for earlier 0:19:21.080 --> 0:19:24.920 MRI during pregnancy. Yeah, is that study enough to actually 0:19:25.040 --> 0:19:26.120 change the standard of care? 0:19:26.720 --> 0:19:29.679 Well, we do use it early here at Boston Children, 0:19:29.760 --> 0:19:31.800 So when there's an indication we do it as early 0:19:31.840 --> 0:19:34.720 as we can to better characterize the entire fetus, because 0:19:34.760 --> 0:19:37.040 it's not just the brain, it's the body it's attached to too, 0:19:36.960 --> 0:19:39.879 So we won't understand not just the brain develop but 0:19:40.000 --> 0:19:42.200 how that brain is developing the context of the other 0:19:42.320 --> 0:19:43.080 organ systems. 0:19:43.359 --> 0:19:45.280 So we can do because it doesn't necessarily run hand 0:19:45.320 --> 0:19:47.720 in hand, like it can be very different, right or 0:19:48.080 --> 0:19:50.120 like in terms of what's going on with brain development 0:19:50.200 --> 0:19:52.360 versus the rest of the system. They can disconnect. 0:19:52.880 --> 0:19:55.960 No, they're intimately connected life. 0:19:56.080 --> 0:19:58.760 So there's one. Yeah, So that's why we won't understand it. 0:19:58.800 --> 0:20:00.840 So say, for example, we with a lot of congenital 0:20:00.880 --> 0:20:03.240 heart disease here that has effects from brain development. We 0:20:03.320 --> 0:20:06.359 deal with congenital dive fromatic hernias that have effects on 0:20:06.440 --> 0:20:09.760 brain development. So everything that's happening in the fetus, whether 0:20:09.760 --> 0:20:11.840 there's a brain or not, is it has the potential 0:20:11.840 --> 0:20:13.440 to have subtle effects on brain development. 0:20:15.280 --> 0:20:18.360 Why do kids, I mean kids do need specialized tools 0:20:18.520 --> 0:20:20.520 her brain imaging to ask us about that one. 0:20:20.600 --> 0:20:23.399 Yeah, that's the whole reason that it came to Boston 0:20:23.480 --> 0:20:27.000 Children's is industries not interested in fetuses in prints and 0:20:27.040 --> 0:20:29.879 young children. So it's really hard to get devices that 0:20:29.920 --> 0:20:32.879 are built specifically for these age range. So that's why 0:20:32.920 --> 0:20:37.520 I brought a team of technical people. So they're engineers, physicists, 0:20:37.520 --> 0:20:41.320 computer scientists, data scientists that help to either develop the 0:20:41.359 --> 0:20:44.560 devices or come up with better ways to analyze the 0:20:45.400 --> 0:20:48.320 data that we get with an ion trying to understand 0:20:48.320 --> 0:20:51.800 pediactors actric disorders. So for example, we want to monitor 0:20:51.840 --> 0:20:55.400 and we're developing optical devices for the NICKU to monitors 0:20:55.400 --> 0:20:58.800 freequal bloodflow. But the heart of a heart rate of 0:20:58.880 --> 0:21:01.359 a neonate is one hundred, so we have to sample 0:21:01.400 --> 0:21:03.119 at a much higher rate than you would in an 0:21:03.119 --> 0:21:05.119 adult to get the same information. So we have to 0:21:05.160 --> 0:21:08.919 build specifically devices to the physiology. And then if can 0:21:08.960 --> 0:21:11.560 think of ahead of a premature baby, it's very very small, 0:21:11.920 --> 0:21:13.480 so I can't take a probe that we use in 0:21:13.520 --> 0:21:15.520 adults and just put it on a pre term, so 0:21:15.520 --> 0:21:19.320 we have to develop the devices to fit the size 0:21:19.359 --> 0:21:20.000 of the infants. 0:21:20.320 --> 0:21:22.080 I want to just go and I feel like we 0:21:22.160 --> 0:21:25.200 touched on this earlier. I mean, we are Bloomberg Business Week. 0:21:25.760 --> 0:21:29.320 We are Bloomberg and very entrenched in financial markets, and 0:21:29.359 --> 0:21:31.480 I feel like the more I've been doing this, money 0:21:31.520 --> 0:21:33.879 just follows everything money is why people do things or 0:21:33.880 --> 0:21:36.600 don't do things. Is that really it is just the 0:21:36.720 --> 0:21:38.520 market I hate to even make it that way, the 0:21:38.520 --> 0:21:42.159 market size, and so you don't have medical equipment companies 0:21:42.359 --> 0:21:44.760 building the things because they just don't think the market 0:21:44.800 --> 0:21:45.640 size is big enough. 0:21:45.680 --> 0:21:47.800 That is a big problem, and I think it's that's 0:21:47.800 --> 0:21:50.200 where we're trying to get into more of a business perspective. 0:21:50.240 --> 0:21:52.000 Like if we start to do a small startup that 0:21:52.640 --> 0:21:55.760 starts to answer those questions and a bigger company might 0:21:55.800 --> 0:21:58.440 buy it. But if we stay in the research realm, 0:21:58.520 --> 0:22:00.880 then it's sometimes really hard to go that last mile 0:22:00.880 --> 0:22:02.960 and get something into clinical practice. 0:22:03.160 --> 0:22:04.760 So how do you do that? How do you cross that? 0:22:04.880 --> 0:22:05.520 So what do you do? 0:22:05.960 --> 0:22:08.640 Yeah, this is what we're strategy strategizing on right now 0:22:08.720 --> 0:22:10.280 is trying to figure out how we do those small 0:22:10.280 --> 0:22:15.600 startups get industry interested I and a lot of things 0:22:15.640 --> 0:22:17.920 we're doing right now. Actually, one of the projects we're 0:22:17.920 --> 0:22:20.959 working on is you know AI strategies, right, and if 0:22:21.000 --> 0:22:24.719 we can get enough data on infants or thetses and 0:22:24.720 --> 0:22:26.919 so on, we can start to build models that predict 0:22:27.200 --> 0:22:28.960 not just group outcomes, but we want to get to 0:22:29.040 --> 0:22:31.840 individual outcomes because that's what parents care about, right, so 0:22:31.880 --> 0:22:34.159 if we can figure out get those models together. So 0:22:34.200 --> 0:22:36.280 that's what we're working on now, is trying to create 0:22:36.480 --> 0:22:39.720 these AI models that are specialized for pediatrics and hoping 0:22:39.720 --> 0:22:41.600 to do startups around that particular concept. 0:22:41.600 --> 0:22:43.399 I have to ask a more questiondent our venture capitalist 0:22:43.400 --> 0:22:43.880 is interested. 0:22:44.480 --> 0:22:46.879 I don't know because we haven't really talked about that. 0:22:47.480 --> 0:22:49.359 I've heard about, but I think they always want something 0:22:49.400 --> 0:22:52.240 that's almost ready. So we're hoping to go further along. Yeah, 0:22:52.320 --> 0:22:53.320 a little bit further along. 0:22:53.520 --> 0:22:54.480 Okay. Interesting? 0:22:54.520 --> 0:22:57.479 Can what we learn and what you understand through imaging 0:22:57.520 --> 0:23:01.159 about the brain's development be applied to how adult brains 0:23:01.160 --> 0:23:01.639 are treated. 0:23:03.400 --> 0:23:07.000 Everything in adult life has its genesis in infants, right. 0:23:06.920 --> 0:23:09.000 So we were all there once. 0:23:09.200 --> 0:23:10.200 Yeah, yeah, exactly. 0:23:10.240 --> 0:23:13.639 And some of the ways of adult brain response is 0:23:13.800 --> 0:23:17.000 more prominent in a pediatric brain. So in some disorders 0:23:17.040 --> 0:23:20.720 you go to pediatric models to see a physiologist. More 0:23:20.800 --> 0:23:23.920 prominent in neonates or infants, but also occurs in adults. 0:23:24.119 --> 0:23:26.879 You know, there was in doing the research. In the 0:23:26.920 --> 0:23:29.679 prep for our interview with you, there is a picture 0:23:29.840 --> 0:23:36.520 of a physician or a therapist doing some what's I 0:23:36.600 --> 0:23:41.960 think is called therapeutic hypothermia too a brand new baby's head. 0:23:42.800 --> 0:23:46.439 And my understanding is that oxygen deprivation around birth is 0:23:46.480 --> 0:23:50.240 one of the leading reasons that you actually see babies 0:23:50.280 --> 0:23:51.640 come into the Nike. 0:23:51.400 --> 0:23:53.679 You, yes, that was one of the main reasons. 0:23:53.720 --> 0:23:54.000 Yes. 0:23:54.400 --> 0:23:57.440 And the therapy for this is as simple as. 0:23:57.920 --> 0:24:00.600 Yeah, you cool them down or can be down there normal, Yeah, 0:24:00.840 --> 0:24:03.640 at least some normal thermic because when they have injuries, 0:24:03.640 --> 0:24:06.199 a response to that sort of the whole physiological response 0:24:06.240 --> 0:24:08.520 to an injury is to have a fever, and that 0:24:08.680 --> 0:24:10.920 is detrimental. So we want to keep them cool so 0:24:10.960 --> 0:24:14.000 that they don't set off these cascades of brain injury. 0:24:14.040 --> 0:24:16.440 And that's partly why we build this one device, because 0:24:16.440 --> 0:24:19.400 we want to be able to monitor through the NICK 0:24:19.440 --> 0:24:22.800 you stay and optimize management. But it's interesting, we don't 0:24:22.800 --> 0:24:24.919 even know what the great blood pressure for a newborn is. 0:24:25.280 --> 0:24:25.840 So this is. 0:24:25.760 --> 0:24:28.120 Why we wanted to have a probe that could measures 0:24:28.240 --> 0:24:30.159 reable blood flow to the brain because there is no 0:24:30.240 --> 0:24:33.879 way to monitor whether there's enough brain or oxygen getting 0:24:33.920 --> 0:24:36.159 to the brain with the tools that we have right now. 0:24:36.160 --> 0:24:37.879 I feel like we don't even talk about blood pressure 0:24:37.880 --> 0:24:40.600 when it comes to like infants, right, Yeah, we just don't. 0:24:41.160 --> 0:24:43.800 But you need to know. You did your residency and 0:24:43.800 --> 0:24:47.359 fellowship in the nineteen nineties. Curious how imaging has changed 0:24:47.400 --> 0:24:49.400 since then, and then where do you think, how will 0:24:49.440 --> 0:24:51.520 it improve in the next I don't know, ten years. 0:24:51.760 --> 0:24:53.720 You know what's a smart benchmark? Yeah, yeah, I know. 0:24:53.760 --> 0:24:56.040 When I was in training, netmark was just starting and 0:24:56.080 --> 0:24:58.840 it was very slow. So where we come now is 0:24:59.000 --> 0:25:02.080 the acceleration position is just incredible. What used to take 0:25:02.160 --> 0:25:04.080 us an hour to do we can do in ten 0:25:04.119 --> 0:25:07.879 minutes now, So there was creed. The speed of acquisition 0:25:08.000 --> 0:25:13.199 is huge. Were also developing a lot of analysis that 0:25:13.240 --> 0:25:15.280 we can do after the images are acquired to give 0:25:15.359 --> 0:25:18.520 us more quantitative metrics, because the whole thing in medicine 0:25:18.520 --> 0:25:21.920 to get past the qualitative read of a radiologist, which 0:25:21.960 --> 0:25:24.040 is helpful, but we want to put more numbers on 0:25:24.080 --> 0:25:26.240 it so we can have a more dynamic range on 0:25:26.280 --> 0:25:29.560 how we describe each child and this therefore we can 0:25:29.560 --> 0:25:33.560 get into better precision medicine and help prediction. So we're 0:25:33.560 --> 0:25:37.439 getting more to that quantitative aspect of imaging now, and 0:25:37.840 --> 0:25:39.879 not just bringing but all body parts of course, and 0:25:40.160 --> 0:25:41.600 you know down to fetel age. 0:25:41.680 --> 0:25:46.119 Is it for kids too? Every case is very personal 0:25:46.320 --> 0:25:49.240 and individual? Or are there trends and things that you 0:25:49.280 --> 0:25:51.520 can help in so that one case can help another. 0:25:51.920 --> 0:25:53.720 Is there a body of knowledge that gets built off 0:25:53.760 --> 0:25:53.919 of this? 0:25:54.119 --> 0:25:56.560 Yes, there's body that of knowledge gets built off of this. 0:25:56.680 --> 0:25:58.080 But this is where we come back to AI. 0:25:58.040 --> 0:26:01.200 I only can remember some, you know, even though I've 0:26:01.200 --> 0:26:02.240 been in practice for a long time. 0:26:02.400 --> 0:26:03.600 Things follow out crap. 0:26:05.119 --> 0:26:07.480 So this is where I'm really excited about AI because 0:26:07.520 --> 0:26:10.840 I can, you know, mine oor databases to find where's 0:26:10.880 --> 0:26:14.080 an individual child just like that one I'm treated. Now, 0:26:14.440 --> 0:26:16.639 what did they respond to, what worked for them, and 0:26:16.720 --> 0:26:18.879 how are these two similar? So I can mind the 0:26:18.920 --> 0:26:21.880 databases to start to come up with individual outcome prediction, 0:26:22.320 --> 0:26:23.640 which is what we're doing right now. 0:26:23.680 --> 0:26:24.480 With databases. 0:26:24.520 --> 0:26:27.360 We've got some from some of the major trials for hypothermia, 0:26:27.600 --> 0:26:30.720 and so we can use this large database to start 0:26:30.800 --> 0:26:33.639 try to take individual outcomes. You can say, well, I 0:26:33.680 --> 0:26:36.320 have a newborn with this pH that had these you know, 0:26:36.359 --> 0:26:38.040 and I'm a mother of this age and put in 0:26:38.080 --> 0:26:40.399 features and they could give you from that database an 0:26:40.400 --> 0:26:43.680 outcome prediction. So working on that and also working on 0:26:44.080 --> 0:26:48.280 making data more available to parents because I think a 0:26:48.280 --> 0:26:51.560 lot of parents are very frustrated with trying to read 0:26:51.600 --> 0:26:54.320 the literature, even if you're using chat, GPT or really hard. 0:26:54.320 --> 0:26:55.240 It's really hard. 0:26:55.440 --> 0:26:58.000 And then you get group statistics and then where does 0:26:58.040 --> 0:26:59.920 my kid fit in between the twenty five to seven 0:27:00.160 --> 0:27:02.240 five percent, you know, good outcome or something like that. 0:27:02.840 --> 0:27:06.199 To get chatbots that can work with some of our databases, 0:27:06.200 --> 0:27:10.320 so people anybody can talk to, you know, a physician, 0:27:10.359 --> 0:27:12.280 so to speak, to give the answers that they want. 0:27:12.880 --> 0:27:18.320 That's that's pretty remarkable because you know, I just think 0:27:18.359 --> 0:27:23.600 about the tone of these chatbots and if there's a 0:27:23.640 --> 0:27:26.960 way that they can be you know, we talked about 0:27:27.320 --> 0:27:30.520 we talked earlier this week about what a challenge it 0:27:30.520 --> 0:27:33.480 can be for people to actually interact with them in 0:27:33.560 --> 0:27:36.720 an you quote unquote normal way. But is there a 0:27:36.720 --> 0:27:40.280 way for them to actually be empathetic and work with patients, 0:27:40.320 --> 0:27:42.120 work with parents and with families. 0:27:41.800 --> 0:27:43.360 If you give us we've got about forty second. 0:27:43.400 --> 0:27:44.880 Yeah, yeah, no, we're working on that. But I can't 0:27:44.920 --> 0:27:46.920 tell you all the secrets because we're. 0:27:46.520 --> 0:27:51.119 Hang know, you go over the that. Can I ask you, 0:27:51.400 --> 0:27:54.720 when you guys do use AI in chat? Do you 0:27:54.760 --> 0:27:57.840 have hallucinations? Like do the AI hallucinations. Do you or 0:27:57.880 --> 0:28:00.560 how do you? Especially when you're dealing with medical y prevention. 0:28:00.720 --> 0:28:02.320 There was a lot of safeguards who put around that, 0:28:03.040 --> 0:28:06.360 so it's we have again. This is sort of more 0:28:06.440 --> 0:28:08.480 the secret sauce that I can't talk about yet, but 0:28:09.240 --> 0:28:13.440 there are ways to constrain chatbots to give you reasonable 0:28:13.480 --> 0:28:15.800 answers that are statistically found. 0:28:15.840 --> 0:28:17.200 All right, so when you can, when you come back, 0:28:17.240 --> 0:28:20.200 yes it will Okay, good stuff. So appreciate Doctor Ellen Grant, 0:28:20.240 --> 0:28:23.960 Director of Fetal Neonatal, Neuroimaging and Developmental Sciences here at 0:28:23.960 --> 0:28:26.360 Boston Children's Hospital. Thank you again. Thank you. You guys 0:28:26.400 --> 0:28:28.840 are all amazing, They're all behind us. 0:28:32.680 --> 0:28:36.679 You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Weekdaily Podcast. Catch us 0:28:36.760 --> 0:28:40.160 live weekday afternoons from two to five pm Eastern Listen 0:28:40.240 --> 0:28:43.800 on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app, 0:28:43.960 --> 0:28:46.160 or watch us live on YouTube. 0:28:46.600 --> 0:28:50.000 We continue with more of our conversations from Boston Children's Hospital. 0:28:50.240 --> 0:28:52.480 It was a broadcast we did earlier this month of 0:28:52.560 --> 0:28:55.200 Remote where we spoke with some of the nations leading 0:28:55.240 --> 0:28:58.680 doctors on matters related to health, health policy and innovation 0:28:59.320 --> 0:29:02.200 when it comes to medical care, especially for kids. 0:29:02.120 --> 0:29:04.000 Well a fixture at my high school in college was 0:29:04.000 --> 0:29:08.360 torn acls volleyball, across soccer, field hockey. That's torn ACL, 0:29:08.400 --> 0:29:11.360 the surgery to reconstruct it, weeks on crutches, and then 0:29:11.480 --> 0:29:15.400 months of recovery. This is doctor Martha Murray's world. She's 0:29:15.520 --> 0:29:18.840 orthopedic surgeon in chief of Boston Children's Hospital. She joined 0:29:18.880 --> 0:29:22.080 us from the hospital. Why do ACL tears affect women 0:29:22.120 --> 0:29:22.600 more than men? 0:29:22.800 --> 0:29:24.840 Well, it's a really interesting question, and it's been one 0:29:24.840 --> 0:29:27.040 of much debate for the last few decades, and there 0:29:27.040 --> 0:29:29.280 have been things like, well it must be a hormone cycle, 0:29:29.480 --> 0:29:31.959 or it's the shape of women's hips and their valgus 0:29:31.960 --> 0:29:35.240 angles to their knees. But a really interesting study came 0:29:35.280 --> 0:29:37.800 out very recently from the Harvard School of Public Health 0:29:37.800 --> 0:29:40.920 as well as Harvard University with doctor Danielson and doctor Richardson, 0:29:41.320 --> 0:29:43.440 where they actually showed that the studies that say that 0:29:43.480 --> 0:29:46.520 women tear their ACL more frequently than men were often 0:29:46.560 --> 0:29:49.920 based when the women's teams were smaller than the men's teams, 0:29:50.280 --> 0:29:52.680 and the way they calculated exposures was the number of 0:29:52.720 --> 0:29:56.520 practices or games you played in, not necessarily your playing time. 0:29:57.080 --> 0:29:59.400 So if you're a man, who's on a hockey team 0:29:59.760 --> 0:30:01.880 versus as a woman who's on a hockey team. The 0:30:01.920 --> 0:30:04.600 women's teams were smaller, so those women were playing more 0:30:04.640 --> 0:30:07.360 so they were planting and hockey that's a bad example. 0:30:07.400 --> 0:30:09.760 Soccer would be better, but if the team is smaller, 0:30:10.040 --> 0:30:11.800 the women are going to be planting and pivoting and 0:30:11.840 --> 0:30:15.000 playing much more time per game or practice. 0:30:14.560 --> 0:30:17.400 Some more stress, more use more stress, more use more TEK. 0:30:17.640 --> 0:30:20.240 So maybe it's not Maybe women in all things equal, 0:30:20.440 --> 0:30:22.880 Maybe women and men don't have a different rate of 0:30:22.960 --> 0:30:24.280 torn ACL correct. 0:30:24.000 --> 0:30:26.920 When when they corrected for unit of exposure, so kind 0:30:26.960 --> 0:30:29.800 of game time playing rather than just a game, the 0:30:30.000 --> 0:30:31.360 injury rates look very similar. 0:30:31.720 --> 0:30:35.760 Wow, that's totally different than what's I mean, do you 0:30:35.840 --> 0:30:38.400 is that? Do you is this the standard now? I 0:30:38.400 --> 0:30:39.160 mean do you think this is? 0:30:39.880 --> 0:30:42.520 It's relatively new work that's coming out, but it resonates 0:30:42.560 --> 0:30:44.120 with most of us who take care of women and 0:30:44.200 --> 0:30:46.280 men on their on their athletic teams. 0:30:46.440 --> 0:30:46.760 Yeah. 0:30:46.920 --> 0:30:49.600 I want to ask about your background material science and engineering. 0:30:50.120 --> 0:30:51.800 I know Tim said it not typical for a surgeon, 0:30:51.880 --> 0:30:55.320 but I think it's it's a really smart combination. Well, 0:30:55.360 --> 0:30:58.760 I have a doctor, a foot doctor, same thing. Engineering 0:30:58.840 --> 0:31:01.280 and like he is and just deal with my foot. 0:31:01.280 --> 0:31:03.160 He thinks about, Okay, what are you doing? What else 0:31:03.200 --> 0:31:05.000 is going on in your body? Tell me about that 0:31:05.080 --> 0:31:07.840 mix and why it's kind of unique and smart and 0:31:08.440 --> 0:31:09.360 ties things together. 0:31:09.600 --> 0:31:09.800 Well. 0:31:09.840 --> 0:31:11.920 For me, it was actually a necessity. 0:31:12.000 --> 0:31:12.160 Right. 0:31:12.240 --> 0:31:15.560 So I was an engineering graduate student and a friend 0:31:15.600 --> 0:31:17.160 of mine came into a party one night and then 0:31:17.280 --> 0:31:19.480 on crutches as Tim was saying and who had torn 0:31:19.480 --> 0:31:21.200 his ACL? And I said, oh, are they going to 0:31:21.240 --> 0:31:23.480 go sew it back together? And he was a med student. 0:31:23.520 --> 0:31:25.400 He was like, you, stupid engineer, We can't sew it 0:31:25.440 --> 0:31:27.560 back together. You have to take it out and replace 0:31:27.560 --> 0:31:28.920 it with the graft of tenant that they're going to 0:31:28.960 --> 0:31:30.200 take from the back of my leg. And then it's 0:31:30.240 --> 0:31:34.400 all this rehab. And I thought that seems kind of excessive, right, 0:31:34.520 --> 0:31:36.360 Like that's a lot to have to go through. And 0:31:36.440 --> 0:31:38.160 so I spent the next six months or so in 0:31:38.160 --> 0:31:40.520 the medical school library just reading everything I could about 0:31:40.520 --> 0:31:43.280 why didn't the ACL heal? And I realized nobody really 0:31:43.320 --> 0:31:45.080 had figured out why it didn't. He know, they tried 0:31:45.080 --> 0:31:47.000 it sewing back together didn't work. So then went to 0:31:47.160 --> 0:31:49.720 grafts and we've been doing graphs for fifty years and 0:31:49.800 --> 0:31:52.600 nobody really asked why doesn't it heal? And so for 0:31:52.680 --> 0:31:55.000 me then there was no biomedical engineering at that time, 0:31:55.080 --> 0:31:57.760 and so my choices were to continue on with my project, 0:31:57.760 --> 0:32:01.360 which was developing airplane wings were invisible to you know, 0:32:01.480 --> 0:32:04.480 to radar, and I thought, well, that's a really cool project, 0:32:04.480 --> 0:32:06.240 but I really want to figure out this ACL thing. 0:32:06.600 --> 0:32:07.960 And my advisor was like, well, I guess you could 0:32:07.960 --> 0:32:08.760 go to medical school. 0:32:10.080 --> 0:32:11.360 This is a Netflix series. 0:32:12.240 --> 0:32:14.280 Okay, Well, the advisor obviously had an impact in your 0:32:14.320 --> 0:32:16.959 friend obviously had an impact. But fast forward, you know, 0:32:17.280 --> 0:32:20.200 thirty years plus and you have actually invented a new 0:32:20.200 --> 0:32:24.000 way to treat ACL tears. The bear mackod you did 0:32:24.040 --> 0:32:27.160 figure out that there's a reason why acls don't heal 0:32:27.240 --> 0:32:31.120 like an MCL would actually heal. Why is that, Well, 0:32:31.120 --> 0:32:31.960 it's really interesting. 0:32:32.000 --> 0:32:34.360 So both the medial collateral ligament and the anti a 0:32:34.320 --> 0:32:36.440 cruciate ligament are ligaments. When you look at them under 0:32:36.440 --> 0:32:39.720 the microscope, they look very similar. But interestingly, when the 0:32:39.840 --> 0:32:41.840 MCL tears, you can go on to brace in it 0:32:41.920 --> 0:32:44.000 about six weeks that ligament will heal fine in your 0:32:44.040 --> 0:32:47.520 back playing soccer. In contrast, the ACL. When it tears, 0:32:47.720 --> 0:32:49.320 even if we try to sew it back together, it 0:32:49.320 --> 0:32:52.360 doesn't heal, and so we wondered why, and so we 0:32:52.400 --> 0:32:53.960 did a series of studies where we looked and we 0:32:54.000 --> 0:32:56.840 compared the two tissues in their response to injury. And 0:32:56.920 --> 0:32:59.160 what we found was that actually the response to injury 0:32:59.240 --> 0:33:01.200 is very similar in the two ligaments. So the tissue 0:33:01.200 --> 0:33:02.920 and the cells and the tissue were doing exactly what 0:33:02.960 --> 0:33:05.080 they were supposed to do in both tissues. But the 0:33:05.080 --> 0:33:08.000 difference was in the MCL. When it tears, the ends bleed, 0:33:08.360 --> 0:33:11.200 and that blood clots informs what we call a hematoma 0:33:11.280 --> 0:33:13.760 between the two torn ends of the ligament. And then, 0:33:13.880 --> 0:33:15.840 in contrast, in the ACL, because it lives in this 0:33:15.920 --> 0:33:19.320 fluid environment of the joint, the ends bleed, but instead 0:33:19.320 --> 0:33:21.760 of making a clot or hematoma between the torn ends 0:33:21.760 --> 0:33:24.200 of the ligament, the blood disperses through the fluid of 0:33:24.240 --> 0:33:27.080 the joint, and so the two ends never have that scaffolding, 0:33:27.120 --> 0:33:30.520 that biologic scaffolding to hold them back together. So once 0:33:30.520 --> 0:33:32.760 we discovered that, then it was a fairly logical step 0:33:32.800 --> 0:33:35.120 to say, is there some way we could immobilize the 0:33:35.160 --> 0:33:37.520 blood in between those two torn ligament ends and get 0:33:37.560 --> 0:33:40.400 that biologic signal where it needs to be to encourage 0:33:40.440 --> 0:33:43.280 healing of the ACL, and that's really what Bridge Enhanced 0:33:43.320 --> 0:33:46.800 ACL repair or BEAR is. So the magic is kind 0:33:46.800 --> 0:33:49.080 of the sponge that we've developed that can absorb the 0:33:49.120 --> 0:33:52.080 patient's blood. You can place that blood laden sponge in 0:33:52.120 --> 0:33:54.440 between the torn ends of the ACL, so the acal 0:33:54.480 --> 0:33:54.960 back together. 0:33:55.000 --> 0:33:55.720 But now you have the. 0:33:55.640 --> 0:33:58.960 Biology plus the sutures and the repair and the ligament 0:33:59.000 --> 0:33:59.400 will heal. 0:34:00.160 --> 0:34:04.040 So what is done in terms of numbers or percentage 0:34:04.080 --> 0:34:07.960 with the method that you pioneered, what you invented, versus 0:34:09.480 --> 0:34:12.000 actual reconstruction and using other ligaments. 0:34:12.280 --> 0:34:14.319 That's a great question. So this is still fairly new. 0:34:14.400 --> 0:34:18.120 So we got FDA approval for this product in twenty 0:34:18.160 --> 0:34:20.360 twenty and so it's only been in practice for a 0:34:20.360 --> 0:34:23.480 few years now. There's studies coming out of Children's here, 0:34:23.480 --> 0:34:25.200 which is where we did the first studies, of course, 0:34:25.680 --> 0:34:27.880 but now other centers are coming along and doing follow 0:34:27.920 --> 0:34:29.719 on studies and those results are starting to come out 0:34:29.760 --> 0:34:31.880 and it's very exciting to watch it grow. 0:34:32.400 --> 0:34:35.000 I'm also curious you mentioned but like FDA approval, like 0:34:35.239 --> 0:34:38.400 the approval process, is it a smart one? Is it 0:34:38.440 --> 0:34:40.359 the right one? In terms of making sure that what's 0:34:40.400 --> 0:34:43.640 being done and studied, the R and D, that it's 0:34:43.640 --> 0:34:45.520 safe for when it's finally done on patients, or is 0:34:46.120 --> 0:34:50.520 it preventing things from maybe putting put into you sooner? 0:34:50.960 --> 0:34:53.279 Like I'm just curious where you guys weigh in. You're 0:34:53.280 --> 0:34:56.040 in it, You're in it every day. Yeah, I think 0:34:56.080 --> 0:34:58.160 it's a delicate balance. But I would say in our 0:34:58.200 --> 0:35:01.279 personal experience, the Fday was an amazing partner. Okay, So 0:35:01.360 --> 0:35:03.680 we were able to get into an early adoption program 0:35:03.719 --> 0:35:05.840 where they actually met with us and helped us and 0:35:05.840 --> 0:35:08.000 put together a panel of experts that would help us 0:35:08.280 --> 0:35:10.800 figure out how to make this the safest possible product 0:35:10.840 --> 0:35:13.080 and the most effective product before we went to patients, 0:35:13.520 --> 0:35:15.920 and we found their advice incredibly valuable. There was a 0:35:15.920 --> 0:35:18.680 lot of conversation and back and forth and just having 0:35:18.760 --> 0:35:21.360 them it felt like it was a team effort because 0:35:21.360 --> 0:35:23.319 we were in alignment. I mean, as a physician, I 0:35:23.360 --> 0:35:24.920 was going to be shaking the hands of these patients 0:35:24.920 --> 0:35:27.200 that my partners were, and we wanted to make sure 0:35:27.239 --> 0:35:28.400 things were as safe as possible. 0:35:28.400 --> 0:35:29.160 So they helped us with that. 0:35:29.320 --> 0:35:33.560 Do we have data yet on long term impact or 0:35:33.800 --> 0:35:37.560 long term outcomes. Yet when it comes to the bare procedure. 0:35:37.200 --> 0:35:39.240 Yeah, our longest data that we have is at about 0:35:39.280 --> 0:35:41.360 six years, and it's only in the small number of 0:35:41.440 --> 0:35:43.840 patients in those first studies that we did. But the 0:35:43.880 --> 0:35:46.240 reason that we want to study at longer term is because, 0:35:46.400 --> 0:35:49.200 as you may know, many of these patients will develop 0:35:49.280 --> 0:35:52.560 arthritis early in life, and as a pediatric orthopedic surgeon, 0:35:52.840 --> 0:35:54.600 I want to make sure we have a procedure that's 0:35:54.600 --> 0:35:57.160 going to last my patients for sixty or seventy years, 0:35:57.239 --> 0:35:59.520 not have the knee breakdown in ten or twenty years. 0:36:00.200 --> 0:36:03.319 And so we're very interested in this arthritis question with 0:36:03.400 --> 0:36:06.000 bear and in our preclinical studies we were able to 0:36:06.040 --> 0:36:10.800 see that arthritis was actually much less in the subjects 0:36:10.840 --> 0:36:13.520 that we treated with an acl repair with the sponge 0:36:13.680 --> 0:36:16.120 versus a reconstruction. So we're interested in seeing if that 0:36:16.160 --> 0:36:18.080 same thing plays out in patients, and the early data 0:36:18.120 --> 0:36:21.040 suggest that it will it is true, but again that's 0:36:21.160 --> 0:36:23.319 very early data on small numbers of patients, so we're 0:36:23.320 --> 0:36:24.719 excited to see how that pans out. 0:36:24.760 --> 0:36:27.960 We're talking with doctor Martha Murray. She's orthopedic surgeon and 0:36:28.040 --> 0:36:30.960 CHI for Boston Children's Hospital that's where we are Tim 0:36:31.000 --> 0:36:35.640 and me on this Friday. Preventive care. Like, so much 0:36:35.680 --> 0:36:38.640 of what we talk about often when we're doing interviews 0:36:38.640 --> 0:36:40.879 is preventive care. And I feel like the whole health 0:36:40.920 --> 0:36:42.920 community has been thinking about this for a long time. 0:36:42.960 --> 0:36:45.560 So what's the preventive care so that as much as 0:36:45.560 --> 0:36:48.080 we don't want you unemployed, like, how do we think 0:36:48.120 --> 0:36:50.840 about taking better care if we're living longer? Like, how 0:36:50.880 --> 0:36:51.680 do we think about this? 0:36:52.120 --> 0:36:54.400 So there's a couple questions on that. So one is 0:36:54.480 --> 0:36:56.920 how do we help our teenagers reduce their risk of injury? 0:36:56.920 --> 0:36:58.839 And I think the main thing for that for our 0:36:58.880 --> 0:36:59.959 athletes when they're in it. 0:37:00.000 --> 0:37:01.920 If we push kids when they're younger. I think a 0:37:01.960 --> 0:37:03.840 lot of parents really push kids. 0:37:04.200 --> 0:37:05.680 So some things we can do to help them is 0:37:05.719 --> 0:37:08.600 help them work on strengthening in addition to just play time. 0:37:09.120 --> 0:37:11.360 And another thing is cross training, So not playing the 0:37:11.360 --> 0:37:13.520 same sport all year round or playing the same sport 0:37:13.520 --> 0:37:15.440 every day, giving their body a chance to rest and 0:37:15.480 --> 0:37:17.280 heal between exposures to sport. 0:37:17.560 --> 0:37:18.600 Does it's as simple as that? 0:37:18.800 --> 0:37:19.040 I think? 0:37:19.080 --> 0:37:22.760 So, Wow, does ACL tear happen more in kids than adults? 0:37:22.920 --> 0:37:25.200 Or and if yes, is it because kids are the 0:37:25.239 --> 0:37:27.000 ones who are playing sports, and you know we're just 0:37:27.040 --> 0:37:27.920 sitting at computers. 0:37:28.239 --> 0:37:30.080 I think that's probably part of it. Again, it gets 0:37:30.080 --> 0:37:32.600 to this exposure question. How many times do you plant 0:37:32.640 --> 0:37:34.800 and change direction? And so the peak of a c. 0:37:34.960 --> 0:37:37.840 Andrews is really the high school athlete because there's so 0:37:37.880 --> 0:37:40.800 many everybody's playing a sport and so we see a 0:37:40.840 --> 0:37:41.359 lot of them there. 0:37:41.400 --> 0:37:43.040 I want to ask you at social media and all 0:37:43.080 --> 0:37:45.440 of us sitting on phones, are sitting in front of screens, 0:37:45.520 --> 0:37:47.400 like I just I keep thinking that we're going to 0:37:47.440 --> 0:37:48.920 one day. I don't know whether it's fifty years from 0:37:48.920 --> 0:37:50.960 now we're going to have a neck that basically goes 0:37:51.000 --> 0:37:52.520 over there or maybe not because we're going to have 0:37:52.560 --> 0:37:55.080 glasses on. And that's like, how do you think about 0:37:55.080 --> 0:37:56.520 this digital world? You're laughing? 0:37:56.560 --> 0:37:59.319 But can we surgically remove my phone from my hand? 0:37:59.360 --> 0:37:59.920 That's what That's what. 0:38:00.360 --> 0:38:02.600 But I do think about what it's doing to us. 0:38:03.280 --> 0:38:06.200 Well, I look at it not just one fixed for you. 0:38:06.239 --> 0:38:08.200 I don't know if I can fix the social media. 0:38:08.200 --> 0:38:11.080 But physically, like I'm just thinking like how you know 0:38:11.200 --> 0:38:13.640 kids are in their phones constantly and stuff, and like 0:38:13.680 --> 0:38:15.840 the shape like like do we need to be thinking 0:38:15.840 --> 0:38:18.560 about what this is doing kind of to our spine 0:38:18.560 --> 0:38:20.160 and different things. I think so. 0:38:20.239 --> 0:38:22.279 But I also think things come in cycles, right, And 0:38:22.320 --> 0:38:23.800 we see now if you walk down the street, you 0:38:23.840 --> 0:38:25.960 see everybody's on their phone. I think we're gonna five 0:38:26.040 --> 0:38:27.440 years from now, we're going to look at back at 0:38:27.440 --> 0:38:29.480 that and say why are we doing that? You know, 0:38:29.640 --> 0:38:32.720 maybe we'll start looking up at the sky more, I hope. So, yeah, 0:38:32.760 --> 0:38:33.560 that's what I hope too. 0:38:34.160 --> 0:38:34.399 Yeah. 0:38:34.440 --> 0:38:36.399 I mean, gosh, that's like your open air. 0:38:36.840 --> 0:38:38.800 I know. I just I look around on the subway 0:38:38.840 --> 0:38:41.080 and just everybody and I'm just thinking the curvature and 0:38:41.160 --> 0:38:43.160 I don't know, whatever, what's the next thing you're working 0:38:43.200 --> 0:38:44.400 on or that you're excited about. 0:38:44.800 --> 0:38:46.600 I'm really excited about a product that we' working on 0:38:46.640 --> 0:38:50.640 for rotator cuff injuries. And it's a product that's injectable, 0:38:50.800 --> 0:38:52.200 so that potentially. 0:38:51.719 --> 0:38:52.320 It is great. 0:38:52.480 --> 0:38:54.560 Yeah, you can have ultras on your shoulder, see where 0:38:54.600 --> 0:38:56.759 the tear is, and then inject the product into the tear, 0:38:56.760 --> 0:38:59.120 maybe in an office visit. So that's what we're going on, 0:38:59.200 --> 0:39:00.279 but very early day on that. 0:39:00.360 --> 0:39:02.439 Again, a challenge with pediatric patients as well. 0:39:02.560 --> 0:39:04.520 No, this is more adults but we were just we 0:39:04.560 --> 0:39:06.600 thought we could make this work for a ligament. Maybe 0:39:06.600 --> 0:39:08.440 we could try it for the rotator cuff ten And and 0:39:08.840 --> 0:39:10.719 the nice thing about the rotator cuff is it is 0:39:10.800 --> 0:39:13.720 accessible by ultrasound and injection and it's a pretty easy 0:39:13.800 --> 0:39:15.920 model for us to study if we can make that 0:39:16.000 --> 0:39:18.520 injectable work there, and there's lots of other places we 0:39:18.520 --> 0:39:20.479 could apply a meniscus other things. 0:39:20.520 --> 0:39:22.400 Did you ever figure out the invisible airplane wings? 0:39:22.840 --> 0:39:23.000 No? 0:39:24.239 --> 0:39:24.799 Not too late? 0:39:24.880 --> 0:39:28.360 Well, social media Visible Airplane Wings ACL wrote that you guys. 0:39:28.239 --> 0:39:28.839 Are killing me. 0:39:29.280 --> 0:39:32.279 Well, we are glad you ended up going into pediatric 0:39:32.360 --> 0:39:33.520 orthopedic surgery app. 0:39:33.560 --> 0:39:37.239 Is there another career like to add on after this? 0:39:38.040 --> 0:39:40.600 You could do it. You could do it. This was 0:39:40.640 --> 0:39:42.600 so much fun. It was fun. Thank you guys very much, 0:39:42.600 --> 0:39:46.320 Doctor Martha Murray, she's orthopedic surgeon chief for Boston Children's Hospital. 0:39:48.040 --> 0:39:51.879 This is the Bloomberg Business Week Daily Podcast. Listen live 0:39:52.000 --> 0:39:54.920 each weekday starting at two pm Eastern on Apple car 0:39:54.960 --> 0:39:57.799 Play and the Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app. 0:39:57.880 --> 0:40:00.640 You can also listen live on Amazon alone from our 0:40:00.680 --> 0:40:04.400 flagship New York station, just Say Alexa played Bloomberg eleven 0:40:04.520 --> 0:40:06.440 thirty blendy ahead. 0:40:06.200 --> 0:40:08.240 In our second hour of the weekend edition of Bloomberg 0:40:08.280 --> 0:40:12.040 Business Week, a special holiday edition, as we dig into travel, 0:40:12.120 --> 0:40:14.360 spirits and more. We're going to catch up with the 0:40:14.360 --> 0:40:17.520 founder and CEO farm Girl Flowers on running her multimillion 0:40:17.560 --> 0:40:20.839 dollar business. We'll hear about the consumer from her, and yes, 0:40:20.880 --> 0:40:22.560 we're going to talk even a little AI. 0:40:22.960 --> 0:40:26.320 Plus we talk bourbon jen Rye ready to drink cocktails 0:40:26.400 --> 0:40:29.839 and changing consumer habits with the CEO of the US 0:40:29.920 --> 0:40:31.200 spirits brand Craft Co. 0:40:31.680 --> 0:40:35.120 First up this hour, Thanksgiving weekend. No surprise, it is 0:40:35.200 --> 0:40:38.040 one of the busiest holiday weekends for travel. Triple A 0:40:38.160 --> 0:40:41.680 projects nearly eighty two million people will travel at least 0:40:41.719 --> 0:40:44.680 fifty miles from home over the Thanksgiving holiday period, which 0:40:44.719 --> 0:40:48.400 goes from Tuesday November twenty fifth to Monday, December first. 0:40:48.760 --> 0:40:51.680 This year's domestic travel forecast includes an additional one point 0:40:51.719 --> 0:40:55.400 six million travelers compared to last Thanksgiving, and if so, 0:40:55.640 --> 0:40:57.560 that would set a new overall record. 0:40:58.200 --> 0:41:00.799 Travel is less subject to in flation pressures, but if 0:41:00.840 --> 0:41:03.879 consumers are feeling the squeeze, they still may cut back 0:41:03.880 --> 0:41:07.240 their travel spending. Somebody who's got a pulse on travel spending, 0:41:07.280 --> 0:41:10.520 as Mike Brown, who's president's CEO of travel and Leisure. 0:41:10.840 --> 0:41:13.960 It's got close to twenty resort, travel, club and lifestyle brands, 0:41:14.000 --> 0:41:17.520 including Margaritaville, Vacation Club, Club, Windom and more. 0:41:18.000 --> 0:41:21.319 Well, ultimately we're one hundred percent leisure travel company and 0:41:21.480 --> 0:41:25.400 our demographic is around one hundred and ten thousand dollars 0:41:25.480 --> 0:41:28.360 of average income, average FIICO over seven hundred and thirty 0:41:29.520 --> 0:41:35.839 average FICO score, age group upper forties, low fifties. And 0:41:35.880 --> 0:41:38.279 really what when you start to think about who likes 0:41:38.400 --> 0:41:41.759 to travel with us, no matter the brand, They want 0:41:41.760 --> 0:41:46.040 bigger accommodations, they want consistency of brands, and they want 0:41:46.080 --> 0:41:50.000 good value for their money. And that's really the space 0:41:50.040 --> 0:41:52.399 that we operate in. And if you think about these 0:41:52.480 --> 0:41:55.920 last five years, where inflation is running high and you've 0:41:55.960 --> 0:41:59.040 already locked in your vacation dollars, the value component has 0:41:59.080 --> 0:42:00.000 been really strong. 0:42:00.080 --> 0:42:02.440 This propelled our growth here in the last five years. 0:42:02.880 --> 0:42:05.719 How much of your business is sales of new memberships 0:42:05.840 --> 0:42:10.360 versus people actually just using what they bought maybe years ago. 0:42:11.160 --> 0:42:14.880 Right, It's actually one of the best endorsements of people's 0:42:15.239 --> 0:42:18.520 love of the product is that every year about sixty 0:42:18.560 --> 0:42:22.040 five percent of our incremental purchases are from people who 0:42:22.080 --> 0:42:24.920 already own with us and want either more space or 0:42:24.920 --> 0:42:28.120 more vacation time. The rest are from our new owner 0:42:28.160 --> 0:42:31.200 base who are dipping their toe in the water and 0:42:31.239 --> 0:42:34.320 seeing what this type of vacation travel is all about. 0:42:35.000 --> 0:42:37.520 So not only are we getting two thirds of our 0:42:37.560 --> 0:42:41.520 sale roughly from people who already own with us, what 0:42:41.560 --> 0:42:43.759 we also see is the people who've paid for their 0:42:43.800 --> 0:42:44.680 ownership already. 0:42:44.680 --> 0:42:46.919 There's a ninety eight percent retention rate. 0:42:47.000 --> 0:42:50.839 So two massive validations that once people own, they really 0:42:50.840 --> 0:42:52.439 love the product and keep buying more. 0:42:52.840 --> 0:42:56.400 So, you know, timeshares, they get a bad rap, and 0:42:56.440 --> 0:42:58.520 they have a bad rap. I mean, if you like, 0:42:58.680 --> 0:43:01.560 just Google, get out of time share, there are legal 0:43:01.600 --> 0:43:05.760 companies that specialize in getting you out of time shares 0:43:06.440 --> 0:43:09.920 is yeah, I mean you know this. You know the industry. 0:43:10.400 --> 0:43:14.800 Is your product different than what people know as time shares? 0:43:15.480 --> 0:43:15.920 And why that? 0:43:16.000 --> 0:43:16.760 Yeah? 0:43:16.760 --> 0:43:20.480 Wrap, Look, it's interesting because I can even feel the 0:43:20.680 --> 0:43:24.359 a little bit uncomfortableness of asking the question because it 0:43:24.440 --> 0:43:28.400 has a history that predates the Great Financial Crisis. But 0:43:28.960 --> 0:43:32.160 I think the untold story here and why I love 0:43:32.200 --> 0:43:34.960 coming on shows like yours, beyond it being a great show, 0:43:35.080 --> 0:43:38.920 is that the industry has dramatically changed. Eighty five percent 0:43:38.960 --> 0:43:42.319 of the sales today are by companies that you might 0:43:42.360 --> 0:43:47.280 book your business day, whether it's Marriott, Hilton, Wyndham, Margaritaville, 0:43:47.880 --> 0:43:50.960 Holiday and Disney. All of these are the brands that 0:43:51.000 --> 0:43:53.400 have come to the forefront in the last ten years. 0:43:54.239 --> 0:43:59.680 And the value proposition, the way of vacationing with a 0:43:59.680 --> 0:44:03.000 brand you trust, is not the reputation that it gained 0:44:03.760 --> 0:44:08.040 great financial crisis, where it was independent real estate developers. 0:44:08.080 --> 0:44:10.600 And I would just encourage everyone to do your own 0:44:10.680 --> 0:44:13.640 research about these type of advertisements. There's a lot of 0:44:13.640 --> 0:44:18.600 press out there that's shown some really negative stories about them. 0:44:19.000 --> 0:44:21.160 That's for your people to do their own research. But 0:44:21.239 --> 0:44:24.399 what I will tell you is that our retention rate, 0:44:24.400 --> 0:44:28.280 as I mentioned, ninety eight percent, two thirds buy more. 0:44:28.840 --> 0:44:32.200 And this is now a massively branded industry that it 0:44:32.400 --> 0:44:35.200 wasn't when it gained that reputation you're referring to. 0:44:36.200 --> 0:44:39.600 So what's like the trickiest component of your business? Is 0:44:39.640 --> 0:44:45.000 it properties? Management, labor? I'm just curious. 0:44:45.840 --> 0:44:47.760 Yeah, it's a complicated business. 0:44:47.800 --> 0:44:52.840 We run a sales and marketing business, we run a 0:44:53.040 --> 0:44:54.160 management business. 0:44:54.840 --> 0:44:56.680 We operate the club. 0:44:56.760 --> 0:44:59.040 So that we can get people from one of our 0:44:59.040 --> 0:45:01.160 two hundred and eighty resis orts to another, and we 0:45:01.960 --> 0:45:07.719 access the ABS market three times a year to sell 0:45:07.719 --> 0:45:11.120 our notes and gain cash flow. I think it's the 0:45:11.200 --> 0:45:14.480 management of all of that together when you look at 0:45:14.480 --> 0:45:20.040 our company's performance, the satisfaction of our customer base, and 0:45:20.160 --> 0:45:24.040 the growth of our brands. We've been highly successful and 0:45:24.120 --> 0:45:26.279 shown growth and showed a way to grow, and it's 0:45:26.280 --> 0:45:30.239 shown through in our equity. But it's the experienced leadership 0:45:30.400 --> 0:45:35.480 to combine several very complicated businesses together to make sure 0:45:35.520 --> 0:45:38.560 that it's seamless for the consumer and that we're also 0:45:38.800 --> 0:45:43.359 ultimately fulfilling our mission, which is getting people on great vacations. 0:45:43.360 --> 0:45:46.480 So I would say it's the complexity of the management 0:45:46.560 --> 0:45:49.280 as opposed to an individual component that's. 0:45:49.120 --> 0:45:50.280 Really hard to operate. 0:45:50.800 --> 0:45:53.800 I would just add that one component that has become 0:45:53.840 --> 0:45:58.120 more complex is the development of real estate has become 0:45:58.120 --> 0:46:00.759 a lot more expensive ground ups, so we've moved to 0:46:00.800 --> 0:46:03.320 a conversion strategy and a lot of our new resorts. 0:46:03.960 --> 0:46:05.520 So I want to talk a little bit more about 0:46:05.560 --> 0:46:10.120 the demographics here of your clientele, and certainly you know 0:46:10.160 --> 0:46:14.560 with twenty different brands, it depends on what actual brand 0:46:14.640 --> 0:46:17.839 we're talking about. You did give us some age demographics 0:46:17.840 --> 0:46:20.480 and where people are generationally, but in terms of spend, 0:46:20.760 --> 0:46:22.799 what are they spending? What do you know about where 0:46:23.000 --> 0:46:27.000 you know in terms of their other demographics like household 0:46:27.040 --> 0:46:29.879 net worth and what part of the economy you're able 0:46:29.920 --> 0:46:30.480 to get. 0:46:31.520 --> 0:46:35.200 Right Well, what we find in our product is the 0:46:35.320 --> 0:46:39.799 vast majority, irrespective of the brands, are going to want 0:46:39.800 --> 0:46:42.000 to be in a situation where they want to know 0:46:42.040 --> 0:46:46.040 what they can expect from their vacation and a Margaritaville 0:46:46.360 --> 0:46:48.799 guest is going to want a sand, a drink in 0:46:48.800 --> 0:46:52.319 your hand, that type of lifestyle, Whereas our newest brand, 0:46:52.360 --> 0:46:55.080 Eddie Bauer, these are people that want to hike in 0:46:55.160 --> 0:46:59.040 Zion National Park or get to the great outdoors and 0:46:59.160 --> 0:47:04.080 enjoy a family reunion. Either way are financial demographics or 0:47:04.120 --> 0:47:07.000 what I explained earlier, But what we see as the 0:47:07.040 --> 0:47:10.720 travel trend is people want experiences that match their personal 0:47:10.760 --> 0:47:14.719 lifestyle as opposed to four walls, and then they have 0:47:14.800 --> 0:47:17.480 to go find their experience outside of the resort. So 0:47:17.960 --> 0:47:21.880 that's why we're launching sports illustrated brand Eddie Bauer. We 0:47:22.000 --> 0:47:26.520 have Margaritaville Club Windham you mentioned, we see an opportunity 0:47:26.560 --> 0:47:31.719 to customize your experience inside the resort and outside as 0:47:31.760 --> 0:47:37.399 opposed to over separating the financial demographics. I will say 0:47:37.440 --> 0:47:39.800 one of our big focus is to pull the average 0:47:39.800 --> 0:47:43.680 age down as we launch new brands over the upcoming years. 0:47:44.440 --> 0:47:47.600 You know, it's interesting, like I do, think about how 0:47:47.920 --> 0:47:51.719 consumers relate to a specific brand. I mean that really 0:47:51.719 --> 0:47:55.120 moves the needle, doesn't it, whether it's Sports Illustrated. I'm 0:47:55.160 --> 0:47:57.080 just curious, And how do you guys think about what 0:47:57.239 --> 0:47:59.799 brands you want to affiliate yourselves with? 0:48:01.080 --> 0:48:05.239 Right if if you know, I've I've I have two 0:48:05.680 --> 0:48:11.800 children that are children young men that are at a university. 0:48:12.000 --> 0:48:12.280 Kids. 0:48:12.360 --> 0:48:16.200 Yeah, they really are, they really are. But I'll tell 0:48:16.200 --> 0:48:18.319 you if I were to go go up to ann 0:48:18.440 --> 0:48:20.359 Arbor and I have the option to stay in an 0:48:20.480 --> 0:48:24.000 unbranded hotel with four walls or something that affiliates itself 0:48:24.040 --> 0:48:27.439 closer to the university, there's a natural pull to it. 0:48:28.120 --> 0:48:30.520 And you know, I can apply that. If you're going 0:48:30.600 --> 0:48:32.880 to go to a beach destination, you have a chance. 0:48:32.920 --> 0:48:34.600 And if you're a parent head and you want to 0:48:34.640 --> 0:48:39.440 be in that Margaritaville environment versus a resort that's a 0:48:39.480 --> 0:48:43.400 brand that has thousands of resorts everywhere from the highways 0:48:43.440 --> 0:48:47.080 to the resort destinations. You're going to go to the 0:48:47.160 --> 0:48:50.839 Margaritaville location, and our club Windom has a similar type 0:48:50.880 --> 0:48:54.480 of affiliation. So we just find that people are moving 0:48:54.520 --> 0:48:58.520 more and more to the lifestyle that attracts them, and 0:48:58.960 --> 0:49:02.560 we are therefore developing brands that allow them to just 0:49:02.640 --> 0:49:05.920 do that naturally, to enjoy their lifestyle inside of the 0:49:06.080 --> 0:49:09.880 resort and outside. And it's it's already been received with 0:49:09.920 --> 0:49:12.040 a lot of great reception and we're excited about what 0:49:12.080 --> 0:49:13.120 we can do going forward. 0:49:13.280 --> 0:49:15.319 What's the brand? You have so many different brands. You 0:49:15.320 --> 0:49:19.239 mentioned Marguerite, we talked about wind Eddie Bowers. What what 0:49:19.280 --> 0:49:19.840 are you missing? 0:49:19.920 --> 0:49:24.279 Yes, I think there's a few things that that we 0:49:24.400 --> 0:49:27.680 have to consider. We don't have any anything in the 0:49:27.760 --> 0:49:32.120 luxury space today, what I would say pure luxury. There's 0:49:32.160 --> 0:49:34.720 a lot of opportunities to tie our type of product 0:49:35.360 --> 0:49:36.640 to the crew to. 0:49:37.000 --> 0:49:38.120 Cruise type of companies. 0:49:39.440 --> 0:49:42.640 And then, as is always the case, someone you know, 0:49:43.000 --> 0:49:46.520 uh five years ago would have said, well, Eddie Bauer 0:49:46.600 --> 0:49:50.040 is not a hospitality name, but you immediately put that 0:49:50.160 --> 0:49:51.320 to an outdoor. 0:49:53.560 --> 0:49:54.920 Outdoor living lifestyle. 0:49:55.400 --> 0:49:59.960 And I think our challenge is there's the typical hospitality verticals, 0:50:00.040 --> 0:50:03.920 which would include luxury, but there's also just niche, niche 0:50:04.000 --> 0:50:08.279 lifestyle opportunities that we will look for. But you know, 0:50:08.360 --> 0:50:10.560 if I could just step back a second, the key 0:50:10.600 --> 0:50:13.760 to our success is whatever we do, we execute against 0:50:13.800 --> 0:50:16.320 it and we deliver on what we promised the street, 0:50:17.080 --> 0:50:19.840 and that success allows us more and more access to 0:50:19.880 --> 0:50:22.000 more and more brands. So I would expect that to 0:50:22.239 --> 0:50:24.960 allow us to move into these spaces that we currently 0:50:25.000 --> 0:50:25.400 aren't in. 0:50:25.719 --> 0:50:29.719 Well, I'd love to be sitting at Margaritaville Vacation, a 0:50:30.440 --> 0:50:32.719 Margarita vacation club with the Margarita in my hand. But 0:50:32.760 --> 0:50:37.560 having said that, before we go, Mike, any signs of stress, 0:50:38.000 --> 0:50:44.560 any signs of you know, economic you know, concerns as 0:50:44.600 --> 0:50:46.359 you look at your business, or maybe what it tells 0:50:46.360 --> 0:50:48.040 you about the outlook here. 0:50:49.040 --> 0:50:52.640 Well, I would say my personal sentiment and what I'm 0:50:52.640 --> 0:50:54.880 seeing in our business is very similar to it was 0:50:55.200 --> 0:50:58.319 thirty days ago, which was there's still uncertainty out there, 0:50:58.360 --> 0:51:02.560 which causes us to be looking intently every day with 0:51:02.719 --> 0:51:07.919 any metric internally that would signal the economies. 0:51:07.360 --> 0:51:08.520 Going one way, or the other. 0:51:09.360 --> 0:51:11.719 Thirty days on from our earnings call, I would say 0:51:11.719 --> 0:51:14.680 that our performance and our outlook on the economy looks 0:51:14.960 --> 0:51:17.480 very similar than it did at the end of October 0:51:17.520 --> 0:51:22.040 when we reported our leisure travel demand is looking good 0:51:22.040 --> 0:51:28.000 for Q four. With the sound that the shutdown is 0:51:28.080 --> 0:51:30.120 coming to an end, I was starting to worry that 0:51:30.360 --> 0:51:33.239 we might start to see changes in behavior between air 0:51:33.320 --> 0:51:34.440 and drive to traffic. 0:51:34.560 --> 0:51:37.960 Are you seeing that at all? Just very briefly, we. 0:51:37.960 --> 0:51:40.880 Have not, And in fact, it looks like our twenty 0:51:40.920 --> 0:51:43.720 five bookings here in Q four are at or slightly 0:51:43.760 --> 0:51:46.759 above where they were last year, and we haven't seen 0:51:46.800 --> 0:51:50.040 a dramatic change. We've seen ever so slightly that changed 0:51:50.040 --> 0:51:53.319 from fly to drive to but I'm really confident that 0:51:53.400 --> 0:51:56.680 it hadn't gone on another week or two into the 0:51:56.719 --> 0:51:59.799 Thanksgiving season, we would have saw a noticeable shift of 0:52:00.120 --> 0:52:02.799 people in New York saying, look, let me just get 0:52:02.800 --> 0:52:06.360 to a drive to destination as opposed to flying to Orlando. 0:52:06.440 --> 0:52:07.960 I don't want to deal with the hassle with my 0:52:08.040 --> 0:52:12.440 free time. Fortunately, it looks as if we will avoid that. 0:52:13.040 --> 0:52:15.760 But at this point we have not seen an indication 0:52:15.880 --> 0:52:18.719 that that has caused changing leisure Travel. 0:52:18.480 --> 0:52:21.640 Mike Brown, President CEO of Travel and Leisure Company, joining 0:52:21.760 --> 0:52:23.600 us from Orlando. 0:52:28.040 --> 0:52:32.040 You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Weekdaily podcast. Catch US 0:52:32.120 --> 0:52:35.560 live weekday afternoons from two to five pm Eastern. Listen 0:52:35.600 --> 0:52:39.160 on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app, 0:52:39.320 --> 0:52:41.120 or watch US Live on YouTube. 0:52:41.960 --> 0:52:44.400 US consumer confidence led in November by the most in 0:52:44.520 --> 0:52:47.560 seven months, on growing anxiety about the labor market and 0:52:47.880 --> 0:52:48.960 the US economy. 0:52:49.200 --> 0:52:49.359 Now. 0:52:49.480 --> 0:52:53.240 Survey by the Conference Board, released this past Tuesday also 0:52:53.360 --> 0:52:56.840 found that confidence fell across nearly all income levels after 0:52:56.920 --> 0:52:58.080 several months of increasing. 0:52:58.160 --> 0:53:01.120 For most groups, A gauge of expectations for the next 0:53:01.160 --> 0:53:04.200 six months declined to the lowest level since April, while 0:53:04.239 --> 0:53:06.719 measures of present conditions slumped to ing more than one 0:53:06.800 --> 0:53:11.080 year low. The ongoing slide in consumer sentiment reflects lingering 0:53:11.120 --> 0:53:14.560 concerns about the impact of persistently high prices and a 0:53:14.600 --> 0:53:18.000 cooling labor market on Americans finances as well as the 0:53:18.000 --> 0:53:18.880 broader economy. 0:53:19.040 --> 0:53:21.720 The health of the US consumer is something we always 0:53:21.719 --> 0:53:24.640 focus on. With Christina Stembel, she's the founder and CEO 0:53:24.640 --> 0:53:26.839 of farm Girl Flowers. We've been talking to her for 0:53:26.920 --> 0:53:30.239 several years now that firm by the way she bootstrapped 0:53:30.400 --> 0:53:33.200 starting back in twenty ten making bouquets from her San 0:53:33.239 --> 0:53:36.160 Francisco apartment. I got to say, it's come a long way. 0:53:36.320 --> 0:53:38.239 It's the first year that we're actually seeing any growth 0:53:38.239 --> 0:53:41.400 since twenty twenty, but very small a couple of points, 0:53:41.800 --> 0:53:44.720 and that's very intentional. We're really focused on the bottom line, 0:53:45.440 --> 0:53:47.200 you know, we want to make sure all these companies 0:53:47.239 --> 0:53:49.000 are doing layoffs. I want to make sure we're not that. 0:53:49.280 --> 0:53:50.879 You know, we're actually we have I don't know, ten 0:53:51.000 --> 0:53:53.520 or twelve open positions right now, which for a company 0:53:53.560 --> 0:53:54.279 our size. 0:53:54.080 --> 0:53:54.640 Is a lot. 0:53:54.719 --> 0:53:57.040 So we're just growing at a clip that we can 0:53:57.080 --> 0:54:00.960 do while maintaining our profit margins. Is the opening We're 0:54:01.000 --> 0:54:04.279 about thirty five million, you know, plus a little bit. 0:54:04.320 --> 0:54:07.759 But yeah, and how many people right under thirty. 0:54:07.719 --> 0:54:10.200 So you have like a third of your positions are 0:54:10.200 --> 0:54:12.600 open right now. Basically, are you having trouble finding those. 0:54:12.440 --> 0:54:14.040 Employees or just going slow? 0:54:14.120 --> 0:54:15.880 We're looking for the right people. So we have a 0:54:15.880 --> 0:54:17.680 lot of applicants, but we're just making sure we're bringing 0:54:17.680 --> 0:54:20.359 the right people. Yeah, I think I've learned that having 0:54:20.360 --> 0:54:23.320 the wrong people is actually worse than just not having anyone. 0:54:23.680 --> 0:54:25.400 So that's a lesson, it's. 0:54:25.440 --> 0:54:28.200 It is a good lesson. So in terms of fifteen years, 0:54:28.239 --> 0:54:30.560 tell us about like how you look back at the 0:54:30.560 --> 0:54:32.240 beginning and where you were in some of the stages 0:54:32.280 --> 0:54:34.320 you've gone through, and then where you are today. Yeah. 0:54:34.640 --> 0:54:37.000 I just sat down and wrote, like, you know, fifteen 0:54:37.080 --> 0:54:39.719 lessons in fifteen years. You know, I might share them 0:54:39.760 --> 0:54:41.000 at the end of the year. I was just trying 0:54:41.000 --> 0:54:42.839 to think about, like, you know, where I'm at now 0:54:42.960 --> 0:54:45.680 versus you know, I feel much healthier right now personally 0:54:45.719 --> 0:54:47.200 and professionally. 0:54:47.040 --> 0:54:48.359 And like why do I feel that way? 0:54:48.360 --> 0:54:50.520 And I think the biggest lesson that I had written 0:54:50.560 --> 0:54:53.600 down was that nothing is as it seems like when 0:54:53.600 --> 0:54:56.719 I started, I wanted that founder story in Silicon Valley, 0:54:56.760 --> 0:54:58.720 I started in San Francisco. I wanted to be the 0:54:58.880 --> 0:55:01.440 cover of Ink or ch one of the big magazines, 0:55:01.480 --> 0:55:03.440 and you know where everybody was like she did it? 0:55:03.520 --> 0:55:05.040 Look at that, you know, and it was like all 0:55:05.040 --> 0:55:07.640 my ego. I finally realized it was my ego. And 0:55:07.680 --> 0:55:10.080 we grew really really fast, and that like played into 0:55:10.080 --> 0:55:12.760 my ego and I felt like that was my entire identity, 0:55:12.840 --> 0:55:14.480 was that you know, all the press we were getting 0:55:14.440 --> 0:55:17.000 in with our you know, fast growth, and yet twenty nineteen, 0:55:17.000 --> 0:55:18.920 we did thirty four million in revenue and I did 0:55:18.920 --> 0:55:22.040 thirty six thousand in profit and I paid myself sixty 0:55:22.080 --> 0:55:22.760 thousand dollars. 0:55:23.239 --> 0:55:24.680 Like this is not a success story. 0:55:24.920 --> 0:55:27.239 But the outward you know, outward rule thought I was 0:55:27.280 --> 0:55:29.839 like so successful, and I'm like, I'm barely scraping by 0:55:29.880 --> 0:55:33.360 eating ramen. You know, so I think, you know, really 0:55:33.360 --> 0:55:35.280 figuring out that you know, I needed to be smaller, 0:55:35.320 --> 0:55:37.880 like we talked about before, you know, and focusing on 0:55:37.960 --> 0:55:41.480 profit margin being a smaller company doesn't feed your ego anymore. 0:55:41.800 --> 0:55:44.680 But I finally figured out that, like everything I thought 0:55:44.800 --> 0:55:47.960 the business world was isn't like all these sales, all 0:55:47.960 --> 0:55:50.680 these like glossy pictures of people that made it. I'm like, yeah, 0:55:50.680 --> 0:55:52.520 it was like a fire sale most of the time. 0:55:52.560 --> 0:55:54.239 And it was like all these people I wanted to 0:55:54.280 --> 0:55:56.560 be that are the girl bosses that made it. I'm like, 0:55:56.840 --> 0:55:59.120 they don't own their companies anymore, and they're you know. 0:55:59.120 --> 0:56:01.879 Well yeah, And it's you know, it's interesting because we've 0:56:01.880 --> 0:56:04.200 talked a lot, and I'm sure like through your head 0:56:04.600 --> 0:56:07.279 you went through some journeys about like where do I 0:56:07.320 --> 0:56:09.480 want to go. Do I want to keep doing this? 0:56:09.640 --> 0:56:11.759 Do I want to bring in partners? Do I want 0:56:11.800 --> 0:56:13.919 to do whatever? You know what I mean? And I'm 0:56:13.960 --> 0:56:15.799 just curious, you know, Tim, Like I think about all 0:56:15.800 --> 0:56:18.399 the folks that kind of think about that kind of thing. 0:56:18.760 --> 0:56:19.799 Did you go through some of that? 0:56:20.000 --> 0:56:20.520 Absolutely? 0:56:20.560 --> 0:56:22.600 I mean I built this to sell, Like I wanted 0:56:22.600 --> 0:56:24.279 to sell it in ten years. I mean, how many 0:56:24.320 --> 0:56:26.200 years can you work one hundred hours a week. 0:56:26.000 --> 0:56:26.560 And not die? 0:56:26.680 --> 0:56:26.880 You know? 0:56:27.239 --> 0:56:28.719 So I wanted to sell it so bad. 0:56:28.840 --> 0:56:31.360 That's hard and the reality. 0:56:31.000 --> 0:56:32.839 Right really, and then we got an offer from one 0:56:32.880 --> 0:56:35.319 of our big competitors, like this big company, and I thought, yes, 0:56:35.320 --> 0:56:37.240 we're going to make it, and it was a horrible offer. 0:56:37.640 --> 0:56:40.359 And so now I'm building to keep in building to sell, 0:56:40.400 --> 0:56:42.399 and it's a completely different thing. Like we're making, we're 0:56:42.400 --> 0:56:45.279 investing in, you know, things for five years from now. 0:56:45.320 --> 0:56:47.360 You're able to build to keep rather than build to 0:56:47.400 --> 0:56:49.520 sell because you built this company yourself and you didn't 0:56:49.520 --> 0:56:52.280 take on any financing, any funding, which is so strange 0:56:52.280 --> 0:56:54.200 for a startup that was built in Silicon Valley. 0:56:54.520 --> 0:56:58.080 Absolutely. Absolutely, you know, I'm very fortunate. I'm in a 0:56:58.160 --> 0:57:00.720 CEO group with lots of CEOs that you know, are 0:57:00.719 --> 0:57:02.600 constantly telling me how lucky I am, even though I 0:57:02.600 --> 0:57:05.360 have never felt lucky in this because I don't go 0:57:05.400 --> 0:57:07.239 into every board meeting being where I'm going to be 0:57:07.239 --> 0:57:08.919 fired right now because there's the boss. 0:57:09.000 --> 0:57:09.680 Yeah, I'm the boss. 0:57:09.719 --> 0:57:11.399 I'm like, you know, we just you know, we bought 0:57:11.400 --> 0:57:13.520 a farm. You know, nobody, no investors would ever let 0:57:13.520 --> 0:57:15.879 you buy a farm. We you know, are farming. Now 0:57:15.880 --> 0:57:16.720 that's a lot term. 0:57:16.920 --> 0:57:18.440 Well, I was gonna say, last time you're on with us. 0:57:18.440 --> 0:57:19.720 We're going to get to the consumer in a second, 0:57:19.720 --> 0:57:20.919 but last time you we're on with us, we talked 0:57:20.920 --> 0:57:23.120 about two things that that really stuck out. One was 0:57:23.160 --> 0:57:25.120 the effect of tariffs. Did you buy a farm to 0:57:25.160 --> 0:57:26.400 offset the effective terraffs? 0:57:26.400 --> 0:57:26.440 No? 0:57:26.640 --> 0:57:28.600 Absolutely not, but it's going to help us, it is. 0:57:28.840 --> 0:57:31.760 I mean, we bought the farm because we're like, let's 0:57:31.840 --> 0:57:34.000 let's do this because it's hard to get this type 0:57:34.000 --> 0:57:36.160 of flower at this time of year where we think 0:57:36.160 --> 0:57:38.520 we can get it where where we're at. We also 0:57:38.560 --> 0:57:41.320 built it because we're like, we're farm real flowers, Like 0:57:41.640 --> 0:57:44.160 let's actually we have ahouldn't we have a farm and 0:57:44.200 --> 0:57:44.400 do that? 0:57:44.480 --> 0:57:44.680 You know? 0:57:44.920 --> 0:57:47.040 But I mean that we're we're investing in you know, 0:57:47.080 --> 0:57:49.520 we do think long term, this spertical integration will allow 0:57:49.600 --> 0:57:50.960 us to keep a couple of million dollars more in 0:57:51.000 --> 0:57:51.880 our pockets every year. 0:57:52.000 --> 0:57:54.600 Wow. Yeah, it's like you gave us such an education. 0:57:54.680 --> 0:57:56.480 I think about where flowers come from, and I think 0:57:56.520 --> 0:57:58.320 there's just as a subtion we go buy flowers. I 0:57:58.320 --> 0:57:59.960 don't know whether we thought they were all in the 0:58:00.640 --> 0:58:02.520 and there wasn't right, so much of the flowers. 0:58:03.240 --> 0:58:04.080 Where's the farm south? 0:58:04.280 --> 0:58:06.880 Well, the oregan We bought the farm in Washington, so 0:58:06.880 --> 0:58:08.520 we have a small farm in Washington. We also put 0:58:08.520 --> 0:58:11.040 in about forty thousand plants in Oregon last year as well. 0:58:11.640 --> 0:58:15.960 And will you be able to cultivate those flowers yearly 0:58:16.720 --> 0:58:17.440 like throughout the year. 0:58:17.600 --> 0:58:20.600 It takes three years for your first harvest. So again 0:58:20.640 --> 0:58:22.520 that's why investors would never let you put the money 0:58:22.520 --> 0:58:22.840 into it. 0:58:22.880 --> 0:58:25.560 Now and the flowers that you produce at those farms 0:58:25.680 --> 0:58:27.400 on that land only go to you or do you 0:58:27.400 --> 0:58:28.040 sell them to others? 0:58:28.080 --> 0:58:30.320 Yeah, we'll keep it, you know right now, the amount 0:58:30.360 --> 0:58:32.960 that we're growing, we can we can use that every year. 0:58:33.000 --> 0:58:35.600 If we decide to keep going, then we can wholesale it. 0:58:35.600 --> 0:58:36.960 It's another revenue chain for us. 0:58:37.000 --> 0:58:39.360 What percentage of the flowers that are grown there? Like, 0:58:39.440 --> 0:58:41.880 does that satisfy of the flowers that you use in it? 0:58:42.960 --> 0:58:43.680 A couple percent? 0:58:43.840 --> 0:58:47.400 Okay, so still it's still yeah really, but you would 0:58:47.440 --> 0:58:48.680 never get you would never be able to get to 0:58:48.680 --> 0:58:51.040 the point because of the global supply chain where you 0:58:51.080 --> 0:58:53.160 could actually grow all the flowers you would want. 0:58:53.200 --> 0:58:54.920 Never and we don't want to. It's too much of 0:58:54.960 --> 0:58:57.560 a risk, you know. I learned through COVID that I 0:58:57.800 --> 0:59:00.600 definitely need to diversify more than I have. I mean, 0:59:00.760 --> 0:59:03.600 having our facility that made ninety two percent of our 0:59:03.880 --> 0:59:07.560 bouquets closed down in one day in twenty Twentymber. You yeah, 0:59:07.640 --> 0:59:10.280 taught me that that wasn't very smart. Definitely making sure 0:59:10.320 --> 0:59:11.320 we're diverse by now talk. 0:59:11.200 --> 0:59:13.280 To us about tariffs in the environment, Like, I just think, 0:59:13.600 --> 0:59:14.280 what again? 0:59:14.440 --> 0:59:14.640 Why? 0:59:14.680 --> 0:59:17.000 We love many reasons we love talking to you, but 0:59:17.040 --> 0:59:19.480 you really give us an idea of what it's like 0:59:19.520 --> 0:59:21.400 to run a small business, although you've made it a 0:59:21.400 --> 0:59:25.160 bigger business over the years. But stuff coming out of 0:59:25.280 --> 0:59:28.120 Washington tariffs, how has that changed? Has it gotten any 0:59:28.160 --> 0:59:29.400 easier yet? No? 0:59:30.200 --> 0:59:33.480 We change, you know, and it actually hurts the consumers more. 0:59:33.520 --> 0:59:36.240 I mean, you know, because you raise prices, we raise prices, 0:59:36.320 --> 0:59:38.640 or we have to buy off the shelf instead of 0:59:38.640 --> 0:59:40.760 making custom things that are nicer for them. 0:59:40.800 --> 0:59:41.720 We have to do things like that. 0:59:41.720 --> 0:59:43.840 We have to make concessions because we don't want to 0:59:43.840 --> 0:59:45.720 price ourselves out of the market. Yeah, you know, we 0:59:45.720 --> 0:59:47.760 have to use different flowers even though they're not the 0:59:47.760 --> 0:59:50.680 ones that consumers want. You know, there are things like that. 0:59:50.680 --> 0:59:51.920 Way, hey, when floorers do that. 0:59:52.160 --> 0:59:54.920 Yeah, yeah, exactly, Like it's not what we want to do. 0:59:55.200 --> 0:59:55.320 Right. 0:59:55.440 --> 0:59:58.360 Also, I think we're the poster child for having tried 0:59:58.800 --> 1:00:01.960 to do this, like May in America grown in America. 1:00:02.040 --> 1:00:04.720 Like when we started, I only bought American grown flowers, right, 1:00:04.760 --> 1:00:07.280 and we ran out of flowers in twenty seventeen, just 1:00:07.360 --> 1:00:09.520 ran out. Now there's fewer farms than there were in 1:00:09.600 --> 1:00:14.440 twenty seventeen because labor's so high now with immigration issues, 1:00:14.520 --> 1:00:16.880 I mean there is. I mean I just came a 1:00:16.960 --> 1:00:18.960 couple of weeks ago. I was just down in our 1:00:19.040 --> 1:00:21.280 fields and we were just getting it ready for winter. 1:00:21.720 --> 1:00:25.000 I couldn't walk for three days after doing one week 1:00:25.040 --> 1:00:27.920 of work in the fields. Like, there are not people 1:00:28.000 --> 1:00:30.200 here that are wanting. 1:00:29.960 --> 1:00:31.800 To be farm workers. Let me just say, so, what 1:00:31.800 --> 1:00:32.160 would you. 1:00:32.160 --> 1:00:34.560 Say to folks who are like, no, pushing back an 1:00:34.600 --> 1:00:37.320 immigration it makes sense, like we have to be doing this. 1:00:38.000 --> 1:00:40.960 What would you say to folks who are listening or 1:00:41.000 --> 1:00:41.720 watching right now? 1:00:41.800 --> 1:00:45.520 I think that ship has sailed generations ago. There is 1:00:45.560 --> 1:00:47.520 no way, Like you know, we tried to buy American 1:00:47.560 --> 1:00:50.280 grown it wasn't possible. We're not going to bring farming 1:00:50.400 --> 1:00:52.920 back to this country unless we do something about immigration. 1:00:53.240 --> 1:00:56.080 There are too many ripple effects going on with why 1:00:56.120 --> 1:00:59.960 it won't work. Also, having production facilities of making bouquet 1:01:00.280 --> 1:01:02.560 in the United States, we do. We make about fifty 1:01:02.600 --> 1:01:04.480 percent in the United States and fifty percent outside of 1:01:04.520 --> 1:01:06.880 the United States. Can I ask you we're outside South 1:01:06.920 --> 1:01:09.880 America South and most of them are in the United States, 1:01:09.920 --> 1:01:12.200 but the flowers are coming from South America. You have 1:01:12.240 --> 1:01:14.560 a few in South Amarket that are making bookuts as well. 1:01:15.000 --> 1:01:18.240 And you know, it's it doesn't work like you know 1:01:18.280 --> 1:01:20.680 I think. You know, Ford Motor Company is a good 1:01:20.680 --> 1:01:22.840 example of this when they're talking about open jobs or 1:01:23.160 --> 1:01:24.760 you know, I talked to a guy that has an 1:01:24.760 --> 1:01:27.720 engine rebuilding plant in the Midwest that had forty percent 1:01:27.760 --> 1:01:28.560 open positions. 1:01:28.640 --> 1:01:29.680 We just don't have those people. 1:01:30.840 --> 1:01:32.600 Yeah, you know, we're telling people go to college so 1:01:32.640 --> 1:01:34.480 you don't have to work a factory job. Nobody wants 1:01:34.480 --> 1:01:35.240 to work a factory job. 1:01:35.240 --> 1:01:36.160 You also have an aging. 1:01:35.960 --> 1:01:40.840 Population, right, So we talked about terrorists, we talked about farming. 1:01:41.440 --> 1:01:45.080 We talked quite a bit about your story to the 1:01:45.080 --> 1:01:48.480 consumer and the American consumer. How's the consumer in your view? 1:01:48.840 --> 1:01:52.120 The consumer is definitely shifted. I think just like what 1:01:52.160 --> 1:01:55.000 you were talking about, you know, people right now, it's 1:01:55.040 --> 1:01:57.800 a little concerning with the economy where you know, people 1:01:57.800 --> 1:02:00.360 are still spending a lot of money, but people that 1:02:00.400 --> 1:02:03.040 can't spend a lot of money can't buy. Yeah, so 1:02:03.320 --> 1:02:05.400 you know, it's not the company I want to be 1:02:05.440 --> 1:02:08.480 where I'm only appealing to one type of consumer. So 1:02:08.480 --> 1:02:11.120 we're really trying to make sure that we're not doing that. 1:02:11.400 --> 1:02:15.200 But with tariffs and rising prices and everything that, you know, 1:02:15.240 --> 1:02:16.640 put kind of backsh you in a corner. 1:02:16.760 --> 1:02:17.240 What do you do? 1:02:17.320 --> 1:02:18.800 You know, I don't want every boquet to cost one 1:02:18.840 --> 1:02:20.680 hundred and fifty dollars because the only people can afford 1:02:20.680 --> 1:02:22.480 one hundred fifty dollar bocke to send to the restaurant 1:02:22.520 --> 1:02:24.680 for their birthday you know. So we're looking at it and. 1:02:24.600 --> 1:02:26.800 It's a consumer like I know, I definitely cut back. 1:02:26.840 --> 1:02:28.919 It's like you can't do as much as you would 1:02:28.960 --> 1:02:29.160 like to. 1:02:29.400 --> 1:02:31.520 Absolutely, we're in the gifting space, so you just cut 1:02:31.560 --> 1:02:33.720 gifts out and we don't want that. So we're looking 1:02:33.760 --> 1:02:35.200 at trying to find ways to get closer to the 1:02:35.240 --> 1:02:37.200 end consumer so we can cut it and shipping instead 1:02:37.200 --> 1:02:38.840 of the flower cost and things like that, that we 1:02:38.840 --> 1:02:41.040 can be a little bit creative with wreaths. 1:02:41.760 --> 1:02:43.520 How big, Like do you do a lot of wreaths? 1:02:44.040 --> 1:02:45.560 We wish we could do more. We sell out of 1:02:45.600 --> 1:02:47.640 them all the time. We're working with a lot of 1:02:48.280 --> 1:02:52.360 new producers. They're high labor, really high labor. Yeah, so 1:02:52.560 --> 1:02:54.720 we are constantly looking at We work with small farms 1:02:54.960 --> 1:02:57.360 on our wreath making program, so very proud of that 1:02:57.560 --> 1:02:58.920 and trying to get more for us. 1:02:59.080 --> 1:03:00.520 I love I would everything. 1:03:00.600 --> 1:03:01.400 It smells really good. 1:03:01.400 --> 1:03:03.080 It does not really get you booked into the studio. 1:03:03.760 --> 1:03:06.080 If you had to do a word to describe the outlook, 1:03:06.880 --> 1:03:07.919 how do you see it right now? 1:03:08.880 --> 1:03:09.840 Bleak but hopeful? 1:03:10.320 --> 1:03:14.480 Wow wow yeah yeah I think And this is with 1:03:14.560 --> 1:03:18.439 somebody who's got business going job openings. 1:03:18.000 --> 1:03:18.880 Yeah wow. 1:03:19.080 --> 1:03:21.800 In terms of the context of last fifteen years apart 1:03:21.840 --> 1:03:23.880 from COVID, whereas it like what year are we in 1:03:24.040 --> 1:03:24.600 ten seconds? 1:03:24.640 --> 1:03:25.919 Fifteen bleak? 1:03:25.960 --> 1:03:27.720 I would just say because of personally how I feel 1:03:27.720 --> 1:03:30.560 about what's going okay, but like we're doing okay, so 1:03:30.600 --> 1:03:33.200 I'm hopeful that we're going to make some change. 1:03:33.240 --> 1:03:35.080 And you bought a farm, Yeah, got a farm. 1:03:35.160 --> 1:03:36.480 I love that. I want to be able to say 1:03:36.480 --> 1:03:39.120 we bought a farm. Christina Stanbel, founder and CEO farm 1:03:39.240 --> 1:03:41.960 Girl Flowers always makes us feel good. This is Bloomberg. 1:03:43.520 --> 1:03:47.360 This is the Bloomberg Business Week Daily Podcast. Listen live 1:03:47.440 --> 1:03:50.400 each weekday starting at two pm Eastern on Apple car 1:03:50.440 --> 1:03:53.400 Play and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business App. You 1:03:53.440 --> 1:03:56.640 can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship 1:03:56.680 --> 1:03:59.840 New York station Just Say Alexa played Bloomberg eleventh. 1:04:01.880 --> 1:04:03.720 All right, we've got something fun to talk about. 1:04:03.800 --> 1:04:06.040 Well, Bloomberg Intelligence team is out with a really interesting 1:04:06.040 --> 1:04:08.640 note that could add to the woes facing the spirits industry. 1:04:08.720 --> 1:04:09.680 Oh so not so fun. 1:04:09.960 --> 1:04:13.920 Well, use, yeah, maybe not. Use of weight loss drugs 1:04:13.920 --> 1:04:16.040 stand a deep in alcohol's demand slump in the US 1:04:16.040 --> 1:04:19.840 and Europe as moderation and wellness gains trends gained grounds. 1:04:19.840 --> 1:04:22.320 So by twenty thirty five, consumption of beer and spirits 1:04:22.880 --> 1:04:25.720 is expected to drop twenty point three percent and nineteen 1:04:25.760 --> 1:04:30.440 point two percent, respectively among GLP one users. That's here 1:04:30.480 --> 1:04:33.760 in the US. This according to an analysis from Bloomberg Intelligence. 1:04:33.960 --> 1:04:37.760 Yeah, total losses could reach twenty eight point five billion, 1:04:37.760 --> 1:04:40.200 translates to about a three to four percent sales drag 1:04:40.320 --> 1:04:43.560 in the US and two to three percent in Europe. 1:04:43.560 --> 1:04:47.200 There's that going on. The whole alcohol industry globally has 1:04:47.200 --> 1:04:49.360 had to deal with tariffs coming out of the United States. 1:04:49.480 --> 1:04:53.200 So that's going on, and so we'll see as the 1:04:53.240 --> 1:04:55.520 President and the administration has been looking at the cost 1:04:55.600 --> 1:04:57.960 of things, some rollbacks. I'm not quite sure how that 1:04:58.000 --> 1:05:02.280 will ultimately maybe impact the liquor industry, but we'll be 1:05:02.360 --> 1:05:02.840 keep ending in that. 1:05:02.920 --> 1:05:05.400 Well, it's the economic backdrop that informs our conversation with 1:05:05.480 --> 1:05:08.480 Ali Anderson. She's CEO at Kraftco. It's got a portfolio 1:05:08.480 --> 1:05:11.640 that includes more than two dozen spirits and liqueurs think Bourbon, 1:05:11.720 --> 1:05:14.520 jen Rye, Ready to Drink, Cocktails and more. The company 1:05:14.520 --> 1:05:17.040 also does co packing for other brands. She joins US 1:05:17.040 --> 1:05:20.760 from a distillery in Holland, Michigan. Last time you were 1:05:20.760 --> 1:05:23.080 on with us, we spent the whole time talking about 1:05:23.120 --> 1:05:25.200 tariffs and the effect of tariffs on your business. And 1:05:25.200 --> 1:05:28.440 that's just one element that's a headwind. Other headwinds include 1:05:28.520 --> 1:05:31.840 changing consumer tastes and how people think about GLP ones 1:05:31.840 --> 1:05:34.680 and increasingly people taking GLP ones and that leading people 1:05:35.000 --> 1:05:37.600 to drink less. What is the environment for you out 1:05:37.600 --> 1:05:38.200 there right now? 1:05:39.160 --> 1:05:41.040 Yeah, I mean, first of all, thank you for having 1:05:41.080 --> 1:05:41.360 me back. 1:05:41.880 --> 1:05:42.680 Good to see you guys. 1:05:43.040 --> 1:05:46.920 All of the headlines, they seem pretty bleak, right, but 1:05:47.000 --> 1:05:50.120 I think that's what business is today, especially in the 1:05:50.120 --> 1:05:52.520 spirits industry. So what's the name of the game. You 1:05:52.560 --> 1:05:56.760 have to pivot. You know, we certainly want to promote 1:05:56.800 --> 1:05:59.400 as much health as we can across all industries, but 1:05:59.440 --> 1:06:02.280 what we're looking at here is lifestyle shifts, and so 1:06:02.320 --> 1:06:04.280 the industry has to has to shift with it. 1:06:05.280 --> 1:06:05.480 You know. 1:06:05.520 --> 1:06:07.200 Anecdotally, I was out to dinner with a friend a 1:06:07.240 --> 1:06:09.320 couple of weeks ago who was who was on a 1:06:09.560 --> 1:06:12.240 you know, I said, healing great, and he said, I'm cheating. 1:06:12.240 --> 1:06:13.040 It's it's a shot. 1:06:13.080 --> 1:06:14.160 But we enjoyed two. 1:06:14.000 --> 1:06:17.040 Cocktails and I'll love reop so I think you see 1:06:17.160 --> 1:06:21.280 people making healthy choices when and where they can and 1:06:21.320 --> 1:06:23.720 what they're actually choosing. What my friend shows that night 1:06:24.240 --> 1:06:27.760 was quality over quantity, and so those are the pivots. 1:06:27.400 --> 1:06:29.800 And the shifts that we have to make industry as well. 1:06:30.040 --> 1:06:32.919 I'm super like that with chocolate, Like I just need 1:06:32.960 --> 1:06:35.520 a little piece of super good chocolate. I don't need 1:06:35.520 --> 1:06:39.080 a lot, and then I'm happy. And so yeah, same 1:06:39.080 --> 1:06:42.000 thing with alcohol. No, no, but let's go. Let's go there, 1:06:42.000 --> 1:06:45.880 because I do think price point is something increasingly. Yes, 1:06:46.280 --> 1:06:50.120 health diet that's certainly an aspect, but price point is 1:06:50.120 --> 1:06:53.480 certainly increasingly something that we know all consumers are looking at. 1:06:53.520 --> 1:06:56.280 We saw that play out in the recent elections in 1:06:56.320 --> 1:06:58.920 some of the states. Like the economy does matter, the 1:06:59.000 --> 1:07:02.640 money that is in or not in your pocketbook, it matters, 1:07:03.840 --> 1:07:04.720 It absolutely does. 1:07:04.800 --> 1:07:07.720 And you know, I've got premium brands, I have brands 1:07:07.760 --> 1:07:10.600 that cross the spectrum. And so what we're seeing is, yeah, 1:07:10.840 --> 1:07:14.200 our consumers down shifting just a little bit, sure, but 1:07:14.320 --> 1:07:18.360 we're also seeing tremendous growth with products that are, you know, 1:07:18.440 --> 1:07:19.480 over two hundred dollars. 1:07:19.840 --> 1:07:21.280 So I think you are seeing. 1:07:21.120 --> 1:07:25.120 A disparity across all of the price tiers. But at 1:07:25.120 --> 1:07:28.040 the same time, like I said, you're seeing people redefine 1:07:28.080 --> 1:07:32.240 what premium really means. I think it's coming maybe less 1:07:32.320 --> 1:07:35.440 about price point and more about what the purpose driven 1:07:35.520 --> 1:07:38.800 value is, what the occasion in their life they're using. 1:07:40.040 --> 1:07:42.920 They're using alcohol to celebrate with. So I think, you know, 1:07:43.000 --> 1:07:45.520 at the end of the day, people want transparency. They 1:07:45.520 --> 1:07:49.160 want transparency in price, they want transparency and how we source, 1:07:49.320 --> 1:07:51.000 how we produce, how we give back, all. 1:07:50.920 --> 1:07:51.560 Of those things. 1:07:52.440 --> 1:07:54.360 In terms of the lineup that you have right now, 1:07:54.400 --> 1:07:57.520 you said people are choosing quality over quantity. Is there 1:07:57.560 --> 1:08:00.520 a certain you have a large range of what you do. 1:08:00.600 --> 1:08:06.200 I mean, dozens of different spirits and alcohols, liqueurs, ready 1:08:06.200 --> 1:08:08.480 to drink cocktails. Where's the strength. 1:08:10.480 --> 1:08:16.840 It's inconvenience, variety, innovation? I think people don't. What we're 1:08:16.840 --> 1:08:20.120 seeing is people don't mind spending a little bit more 1:08:20.200 --> 1:08:22.960 for something that they haven't seen before, right, And that 1:08:23.000 --> 1:08:26.519 could be with an RTD. So maybe it's maybe it's 1:08:26.560 --> 1:08:29.040 a little more expensive RTD, but it's a flavor combination 1:08:29.080 --> 1:08:31.519 they haven't quite had before. Or maybe it's a really 1:08:31.600 --> 1:08:35.000 luxury whiskey with a finish or a blending technique in 1:08:35.040 --> 1:08:37.960 our case that they haven't seen before. So again, I 1:08:38.000 --> 1:08:42.280 think people we vote with our dollars, right, and they'll 1:08:42.400 --> 1:08:44.840 consume what they think is new, interesting and what they 1:08:44.880 --> 1:08:46.800 can get information about what they connect with. 1:08:47.240 --> 1:08:49.680 So RTD obviously ready to drink. I've had certainly some 1:08:49.720 --> 1:08:52.920 of those. Hey, you sent over to our team so 1:08:52.920 --> 1:08:54.400 that we could share with the audience some of the 1:08:54.400 --> 1:08:56.320 stuff that you guys I actually have. Next to be 1:08:56.800 --> 1:09:01.200 copper Craft distillery made in the US, say Holland, Michigan. 1:09:01.360 --> 1:09:04.639 It's straight bourbon whiskey. Tell me about this one. I'm 1:09:04.680 --> 1:09:06.920 actually gonna be It's been quite a day, it's been 1:09:07.000 --> 1:09:09.200 quite a week, it's been quite a year. I'm gonna 1:09:09.360 --> 1:09:11.880 I join you. Yes, I join you. We're so sick. 1:09:11.960 --> 1:09:15.559 Yes, she's at You're you're here in the studio. 1:09:15.840 --> 1:09:19.160 I'm here, I'm here in our distillery. I don't want 1:09:19.160 --> 1:09:20.120 to wait wait maybe. 1:09:22.200 --> 1:09:22.880 Oh, there we go. 1:09:23.000 --> 1:09:25.000 Okay. I didn't want to see a la I didn't 1:09:25.000 --> 1:09:27.000 want to spill it. Okay, so tell me, but tell 1:09:27.000 --> 1:09:29.320 me about this because it isn't certainly a brand that 1:09:29.360 --> 1:09:31.960 I think I'm familiar with. But you're right, people are looking. 1:09:32.280 --> 1:09:34.200 I know when I go to buy a winder. I 1:09:34.280 --> 1:09:35.840 like to try different things. 1:09:36.479 --> 1:09:39.240 Right, right, So you know we're based out of Holland, Michigan, 1:09:39.240 --> 1:09:41.120 and you think I get this question all the time. 1:09:41.280 --> 1:09:44.719 Isn't whiskey just in Kentucky? And the great thing about 1:09:44.720 --> 1:09:47.280 an American spirit is that it can be in all 1:09:47.320 --> 1:09:50.439 fifty states. And so for us, we're in Holland, Michigan, 1:09:50.800 --> 1:09:52.639 on the west side of Michigan here on the Lake shore, 1:09:53.000 --> 1:09:55.880 and we create We've had this brand for for many, 1:09:55.880 --> 1:09:58.720 many years. And I think what you've got is it's 1:09:58.720 --> 1:10:00.040 a it's a straight bourbon. 1:09:59.840 --> 1:10:02.719 W I could smell the whiskey sour that could also 1:10:02.760 --> 1:10:03.519 be made out of this bay. 1:10:03.600 --> 1:10:06.080 This is finished in this is finished in rum casks. 1:10:06.120 --> 1:10:06.760 What does that mean? 1:10:07.800 --> 1:10:10.600 Well, it means we took an already amazing whiskey. I 1:10:10.600 --> 1:10:12.599 think the one you've got is eight years old and 1:10:12.640 --> 1:10:14.479 we put it in, Oh, I don't have any casts 1:10:14.479 --> 1:10:16.639 in this room. We put it in a rum cask 1:10:16.720 --> 1:10:18.519 that it used to hold rum, and we just let. 1:10:18.439 --> 1:10:22.639 It rest for about a year so it flavor. Then 1:10:22.840 --> 1:10:25.240 something that would be finished in a different type of cask. 1:10:25.280 --> 1:10:28.479 But I see what you say, like you don't mean what. 1:10:28.880 --> 1:10:31.320 It reminds me of my dad who used to make 1:10:31.320 --> 1:10:33.360 whiskey sours for all of us as kids, and most 1:10:33.360 --> 1:10:35.040 of the times it was a lot more oranges and 1:10:35.120 --> 1:10:39.479 cherries in it than whiskey. But you could also just 1:10:40.320 --> 1:10:44.920 the variety. I feel like the craft industry even in 1:10:45.000 --> 1:10:48.519 the car, like you just alone, it's just something really nice, 1:10:49.120 --> 1:10:50.720 right Like what did Kraft used to be? 1:10:50.760 --> 1:10:52.840 If we look back at beer, we think craft was 1:10:53.240 --> 1:10:56.880 small batch, craft, whiskey, small batch, and Kraft. Much like 1:10:56.920 --> 1:11:00.200 the way we'd redefined premium, craft has evolved too. So 1:11:00.280 --> 1:11:01.439 like you just said, up, you know, I've not heard 1:11:01.479 --> 1:11:01.960 of this before. 1:11:02.000 --> 1:11:02.360 What is this? 1:11:02.439 --> 1:11:05.080 And so craft is now evolving to be what is 1:11:05.120 --> 1:11:08.280 that experience? I can get? Who are the people that 1:11:08.360 --> 1:11:10.880 make it? How transparent are they about what they're doing? 1:11:10.920 --> 1:11:11.840 Can I go visit them? 1:11:11.880 --> 1:11:12.479 Who are you know? 1:11:13.200 --> 1:11:16.160 That's what craft is now. It's the process, the technique, 1:11:16.200 --> 1:11:19.519 the people, the story that you're telling about the whiskey 1:11:19.640 --> 1:11:19.920 right now. 1:11:20.800 --> 1:11:24.000 The distribution of this is a question that I have 1:11:24.160 --> 1:11:26.439 because at least here in New York City, I don't 1:11:26.479 --> 1:11:29.320 know how it works in other parts of the world, 1:11:29.400 --> 1:11:31.240 but in other parts of the country, but you walk 1:11:31.280 --> 1:11:34.280 into a liquor store and I've talked to some of 1:11:34.320 --> 1:11:37.840 these folks in there, and again it's changes depending on 1:11:37.840 --> 1:11:42.639 where you live. But it's a challenge to get smaller 1:11:42.680 --> 1:11:46.600 brands on the shelves, especially with the big brands, the 1:11:46.960 --> 1:11:49.720 large brands that own a good portion. They come in 1:11:49.760 --> 1:11:51.640 and say, okay, well, if you want to carry this, 1:11:51.720 --> 1:11:53.559 you have to carry this, and there's not much power 1:11:53.600 --> 1:11:55.479 that these small companies have. How do you make sure 1:11:55.479 --> 1:11:58.320 you get shelf space? And shelf space that's like premium. 1:11:59.040 --> 1:11:59.800 What a great question. 1:12:00.000 --> 1:12:03.920 Relationships, Like any business, any industry, it really does come 1:12:03.960 --> 1:12:07.920 down to relationships. And for a small you know craft right, 1:12:09.080 --> 1:12:11.439 We've got five brands, we cover forty two states and 1:12:11.479 --> 1:12:13.080 we're still crafts. What does that mean? We have to 1:12:13.120 --> 1:12:15.559 show up in market. You've got to show up at 1:12:15.560 --> 1:12:17.760 that retailer, You've got to show up with the distributors. 1:12:17.920 --> 1:12:21.559 Those distributors are still my customers. So it's built on 1:12:21.680 --> 1:12:25.000 relationships and making sure they know just like we connect 1:12:25.000 --> 1:12:27.960 with our consumers online and tell those stories, make sure 1:12:27.960 --> 1:12:29.840 they know who we are and that we are a 1:12:29.880 --> 1:12:33.800 small business that every single sale matters to us and 1:12:33.920 --> 1:12:37.040 much like them, you know, we're just trying to connect 1:12:37.080 --> 1:12:39.360 with consumers. So I think it's finding that common ground 1:12:39.400 --> 1:12:40.280 through relationships. 1:12:40.600 --> 1:12:42.559 Yeah, it always comes down to that. I feel like 1:12:42.600 --> 1:12:46.360 relationships for so many different industries. Hey, before you go, 1:12:46.680 --> 1:12:50.840 we've talked about copper craft and I actually sampled some, 1:12:51.400 --> 1:12:53.439 but you also shared with our team, just to kind 1:12:53.439 --> 1:12:55.759 of look at kind of the variety and different places 1:12:55.760 --> 1:12:59.559 you go. Elderflower. I'm a little obsessed with Elderflower right now. 1:12:59.560 --> 1:13:06.200 And you've got Thatcher's Organic, our tea Artisal Artisenal, Yeah, 1:13:07.360 --> 1:13:11.240 Artesian Artesian, Yeah, yeah, that's right. Sorry, Sorry, I couldn't 1:13:11.240 --> 1:13:14.799 read it. I'm looking off my because we took a picture. 1:13:15.520 --> 1:13:19.599 You've got fox and is it Odenny Odin Odin? 1:13:19.720 --> 1:13:19.840 Ok? 1:13:20.720 --> 1:13:22.760 Sorry, I'm ashually get a small picture, but tell us 1:13:22.800 --> 1:13:24.040 a little bit about some of the other ones. And 1:13:24.040 --> 1:13:27.680 then Thatcher's vodka. It's not as I've been drinking. I 1:13:27.720 --> 1:13:29.639 just couldn't read the picture because I took a picture, 1:13:29.680 --> 1:13:34.439 so I can read on air, I'll join you. 1:13:34.479 --> 1:13:37.200 No, it's a Thatcher's Organic, right, it's you know we 1:13:37.200 --> 1:13:38.440 think about spirits. 1:13:38.760 --> 1:13:39.559 Does it really matter? 1:13:39.640 --> 1:13:42.960 Yeah, sure it does. Something like Thattress is very culinary forward. 1:13:43.000 --> 1:13:45.439 So you mentioned Elderflower. I bet we're drinking the heck 1:13:45.479 --> 1:13:47.360 out of Hugo Sprits is right now with that elder 1:13:47.400 --> 1:13:51.120 flower totally amazing, right, yes, yeah, and again that's a 1:13:51.240 --> 1:13:54.240 that's a way to enjoy maybe a little bit of 1:13:54.280 --> 1:13:57.679 lower proof but still still feel great and be festive 1:13:57.680 --> 1:13:59.680 in all of those things. So you know, then we've 1:13:59.680 --> 1:14:03.439 got like sox and Odin is luxury whiskey, and that's 1:14:04.360 --> 1:14:06.800 we've got a beautiful double oaked that was just up 1:14:06.880 --> 1:14:09.920 for We had two of the top five finalists for 1:14:10.000 --> 1:14:14.040 the best special barrel finished Whiskeys in the world a 1:14:14.040 --> 1:14:17.320 couple sundays ago in San Francisco. So you know, we're 1:14:17.320 --> 1:14:20.240 super We're craft We're competing against all these big guys, 1:14:20.640 --> 1:14:23.000 but because of what we're able to do with our size, 1:14:23.040 --> 1:14:25.479 with our expertise, you know, we can deliver some really 1:14:25.560 --> 1:14:27.320 luxury things to the market as well, and we do. 1:14:27.960 --> 1:14:30.640 That was Ali Anderson, CEO of Craft Co. 1:14:31.120 --> 1:14:33.120 All right, so all of you who are maybe still 1:14:33.160 --> 1:14:35.880 leading some leftovers from Thanksgiving, it's kind of my favorite 1:14:35.880 --> 1:14:39.200 thing to have, like pecan pie, pecan pie for breakfast. 1:14:39.840 --> 1:14:42.000 It's okay, call it what you will, but just just 1:14:42.120 --> 1:14:43.240 eat it, you know whatever. 1:14:43.400 --> 1:14:45.720 But what you might have noticed over the holiday over 1:14:45.760 --> 1:14:49.879 Thanksgiving is that alcohol consumption. People are drinking less. Consumption 1:14:49.960 --> 1:14:51.519 here in the US when it comes to alcohol, has 1:14:51.520 --> 1:14:54.320 fallen to its lowest level in decades, driven by health 1:14:54.360 --> 1:14:57.840 fears GLP one, weight loss, drugs that can actually dull 1:14:57.920 --> 1:15:01.599 alcohol cravings, and of course rising cannabis use. About fifty 1:15:01.600 --> 1:15:04.519 one percent of respondents in a September Bloomberg Intelligence survey, 1:15:04.720 --> 1:15:08.120 so they now substitute cannabis for alcohol at least weekly, 1:15:08.240 --> 1:15:10.800 So up about five percentage points from last year. And 1:15:10.800 --> 1:15:13.960 that includes in the Thanksgiving feasts. 1:15:14.160 --> 1:15:18.080 Yeah, this is pretty wild. So the Wednesday before Thanksgiving, Yeah, 1:15:18.400 --> 1:15:22.080 some have started dubbing that Wednesday Green Wednesday. This is 1:15:22.120 --> 1:15:27.240 according to the BDSA, that's the cannabis Market tracker. Yeah, 1:15:27.280 --> 1:15:30.120 it's the second biggest day of the year for legal 1:15:30.160 --> 1:15:31.599 cannabis sales in the US. 1:15:31.880 --> 1:15:34.160 Maybe everybody just wants to kind of mellow out, you know, 1:15:34.160 --> 1:15:36.639 before they see all their family. Well, or why aren't 1:15:36.680 --> 1:15:38.960 you married, Why don't you have kids, Why don't you 1:15:39.160 --> 1:15:43.720 like why don't you finish that degree? Like anyway, all 1:15:43.720 --> 1:15:46.720 I'm gonna say is whether you had a happy Thanksgiving 1:15:46.800 --> 1:15:49.439 or happy Thanksgiving? You know, I just hope you had 1:15:49.680 --> 1:15:50.599 a good and safe holiday. 1:15:50.640 --> 1:15:51.560 I like that Thanksgiving. 1:15:52.400 --> 1:15:54.560 Check out this story. It's on the Bloomberg. 1:15:54.120 --> 1:15:55.679 There's a reason it was one of the most read. 1:15:55.960 --> 1:15:59.439 Charles Grevin of Bloomberg News wrote it, Americans ditching wine 1:15:59.439 --> 1:16:02.120 to get HI on gummies this Thanksgiving, So maybe that 1:16:02.240 --> 1:16:04.439 was your Thanksgiving as well. All right, that wraps up 1:16:04.760 --> 1:16:08.040 this Thanksgiving weekend edition of Bloomberg Business Week from Bloomberg Radio. 1:16:08.040 --> 1:16:09.320 Thank you so much for joining us. 1:16:09.479 --> 1:16:10.360 I'm tim Stennebeck. 1:16:10.720 --> 1:16:12.040 Haven't you ever done the cousin Walk? 1:16:12.240 --> 1:16:13.160 No, I don't even know what that. 1:16:13.160 --> 1:16:19.160 Is the story? You know, I guess you are our producer. 1:16:19.240 --> 1:16:24.160 It's okay, yeah, and I'm Carol Masser. Have a good 1:16:24.160 --> 1:16:26.560 and save holiday weekend. Enjoy the leftovers. 1:16:27.560 --> 1:16:32.920 This is the Bloomberg Business Week Daily podcast, available on Apple, Spotify, 1:16:33.040 --> 1:16:36.759 and anywhere else you get your podcasts. Listen live weekday 1:16:36.800 --> 1:16:40.839 afternoons from two to five pm Eastern on Bloomberg dot Com, 1:16:40.880 --> 1:16:44.799 the iHeartRadio app, tune In, and the Bloomberg Business App. 1:16:45.000 --> 1:16:47.759 You can also watch us live every weekday on YouTube 1:16:48.000 --> 1:16:50.160 and always on the Bloomberg terminal