WEBVTT - How Executive Moms Navigate Work and Life

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<v Speaker 1>So Mother's Day on Sunday, And I gotta say, when

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<v Speaker 1>I worked at the Wall Street Journal report at down Jones,

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<v Speaker 1>we had a tradition for our show that aired on

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<v Speaker 1>Mother's Day and we thanked our moms and the credits

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<v Speaker 1>and it was kind of just a very very sweet tradition.

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<v Speaker 1>Another tradition at the Journal was always always checking the

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<v Speaker 1>column of our next guest. Joanne Lublin was the Wall

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<v Speaker 1>Street Journalist career columnist for many years, also an editor

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<v Speaker 1>covering workplace issues from the c suite on down Pultzer

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<v Speaker 1>Prize winning journalist is still a contributor to the Journal.

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<v Speaker 1>Author of two books about female business executives, she understands

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<v Speaker 1>this so well her latest book, Power Mom's How Executive

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<v Speaker 1>mothers navigate work in life and Joan joins us on

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<v Speaker 1>the phone from suburban Philadelphia. Joanne, so nice to have

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<v Speaker 1>you here with us. How are you and what's what's

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<v Speaker 1>the last year been like for you? Well, thank you

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<v Speaker 1>very much for having me on the show. Yeah, well,

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<v Speaker 1>the last year has been sort of anticlimactic for me

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<v Speaker 1>because I turned in the manuscript for this new book

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<v Speaker 1>literally on the day before America shut down, and I

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<v Speaker 1>had been a hermit for the prior nine months writing

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<v Speaker 1>the book, and I thought, oh great, now I can

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<v Speaker 1>go out and party and socialize and take some trips.

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<v Speaker 1>And you know, then the world's kind of turned on

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<v Speaker 1>its head. And so I've been doing what everyone else

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<v Speaker 1>has been doing, which is basically, you know, quarantining in place.

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<v Speaker 1>I've taken flights twice in the last year to visit

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<v Speaker 1>my out of town grown children and grandchildren. But that's

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<v Speaker 1>about it. Yeah, interesting, and I do wonder how are

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<v Speaker 1>you thinking about women right now? We talked about some

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<v Speaker 1>data earlier that showed that women dropped out of the

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<v Speaker 1>U s labor force in April for the first time

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<v Speaker 1>since January. It was I think initially we thought Joey

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<v Speaker 1>and the pandemic would be maybe helpful for women, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>finally giving them some flexibility and how they worked and

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<v Speaker 1>took care of their families. And yet we're finding out

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<v Speaker 1>that that's not the case necessarily. Unfortunately, that is indeed correct,

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<v Speaker 1>And in fact, the Wall Street Journal did an analysis

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<v Speaker 1>of US data only a week or so ago, and

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<v Speaker 1>they concluded that they're nearly one point five million few

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<v Speaker 1>were working mothers in the workforce and before COVID nineteen.

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<v Speaker 1>And this is especially hitting women hard who have school

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<v Speaker 1>aged children. They're having a difficult time returning to work because, frankly,

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<v Speaker 1>the balance of power in the home, as much as

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<v Speaker 1>has shifted somewhat, dad's have certainly picked up a bigger

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<v Speaker 1>share of responsibility while everyone's been working from home, the

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<v Speaker 1>burden is still squarely on mom's shoulders, particularly when it

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<v Speaker 1>comes to school aged children. Is that even for younger

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<v Speaker 1>generations of couples that it's still the case. Well overall,

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<v Speaker 1>that's what the studies I've seen have suggested, But certainly

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<v Speaker 1>in the women that I interviewed for the book, I

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<v Speaker 1>saw a marked difference between generations. For this book, I

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<v Speaker 1>interviewed women from the Baby Boom generation my generation to

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<v Speaker 1>look at the first wave of women who had gotten

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<v Speaker 1>an executive level roles in business and also had kids,

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<v Speaker 1>and then I compared that to a similar sized group

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<v Speaker 1>of women who were millennials and Gen xers anywhere from

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<v Speaker 1>their early thirties to early forties. Altogether eighty six such

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<v Speaker 1>women plus twenty five adult daughters of the boomers, and

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<v Speaker 1>I was looking to see what had gotten better, what

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<v Speaker 1>had stayed the same, and what had gotten worse in

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<v Speaker 1>terms of how they navigated work and life. And to

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<v Speaker 1>your point, yes, I did see that there were improvements

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<v Speaker 1>among the younger generation when it comes to sharing the

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<v Speaker 1>duties at home. But we haven't gotten all the way

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<v Speaker 1>to the you know go line yet. Yeah, no, exactly.

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<v Speaker 1>Well what's interesting is talk to me a little bit

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<v Speaker 1>about your book. What did you set out to do.

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<v Speaker 1>You've written books before. What was your hope to do

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<v Speaker 1>with this? Well, my hope was to explore just that

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<v Speaker 1>because my first book, which was called Earning It Hard

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<v Speaker 1>One Lessons from Trailblazing Women at the top of the

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<v Speaker 1>business world, looked at fifty two high ranking corporate executive women,

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<v Speaker 1>all but one of whom were baby boomers, and eight

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<v Speaker 1>of those women, it turned out, had children, and among

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<v Speaker 1>those who had become public companies eos, the proportion was

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<v Speaker 1>even higher. So what was their secret, sauce? Well, they

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<v Speaker 1>were trailblazers. They were the pace setters. They were the first,

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<v Speaker 1>frankly of their generation to get into the executive suite,

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<v Speaker 1>and in many cases did so while having children. And

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<v Speaker 1>it just made me wonder, have things changed all that

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<v Speaker 1>much for that younger way The women who in more

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<v Speaker 1>recent years have become executives after having children or having

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<v Speaker 1>children when they became executives, And what I found was

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<v Speaker 1>that definitely things have gotten better things. One reason is

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<v Speaker 1>because people are entering into relationships with much more supportive spouses,

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<v Speaker 1>whether it's a life partner or a husband or in

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<v Speaker 1>one case a wife. There also are money more supportive workplaces.

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<v Speaker 1>We have many more women in positions of high level

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<v Speaker 1>jobs who can act as role models and sponsors and mentors.

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<v Speaker 1>But thirdly, we have seen huge advanced is in technology

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<v Speaker 1>and that's why we've been able to work from home

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<v Speaker 1>for the last year. Those of us would like color

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<v Speaker 1>jobs who can do so. Joanne, there was one part

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<v Speaker 1>in your book as I was going through it, you

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<v Speaker 1>talked about the new Spank CEO and she negotiated an

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<v Speaker 1>employment contract and it included a provision or line in

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<v Speaker 1>the contract that said, quote the company acknowledges that you

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<v Speaker 1>have obligations to your family and community that will cause

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<v Speaker 1>you at times to be away from the office during

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<v Speaker 1>normal working hours. That was in her contract. That seems

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<v Speaker 1>to me sounded like that was probably pretty unusual at

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<v Speaker 1>the time. Well, on the other hand, the company was

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<v Speaker 1>also pretty small. It's the fun wasn't fair enough, and

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<v Speaker 1>it was run by and it was another woman, and

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<v Speaker 1>she was, you know, coming to that company after having

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<v Speaker 1>worked for some pretty big, mega corporations where she didn't

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<v Speaker 1>feel there was an acknowledgement of the fact that she

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<v Speaker 1>had a dual role in her life and that her

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<v Speaker 1>children were important piece of that. And so, frankly, I

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<v Speaker 1>just think women and devalue themselves and they don't ask

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<v Speaker 1>for what they need when they're starting a new job.

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<v Speaker 1>Not all of us, of course, are coming in at

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<v Speaker 1>the CEO level or have the right or ability to

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<v Speaker 1>negotiate a formal, written employment contract. That doesn't mean we

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<v Speaker 1>can't sort of set the terms. And if they're not

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<v Speaker 1>going to be amenable to a life in which we

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<v Speaker 1>do have time to be parents as well as executives

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<v Speaker 1>or individual employees, then we move on. We go work

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<v Speaker 1>somewhere else. Right, But in her case, this was important

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<v Speaker 1>enough that she made it a provision in her contract

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<v Speaker 1>and they accepted it. Yeah, it's funny. It's interesting that

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<v Speaker 1>you say that, because we are having conversations about whether

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<v Speaker 1>or not the whole idea of hybrid working. Ultimately, will

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<v Speaker 1>people say okay, If I don't get it here, I'll

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<v Speaker 1>go somewhere else, because you know, the past year has

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<v Speaker 1>shown many things good and bad, but it also has

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<v Speaker 1>shown that hybrid can work. Tell us about who you

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<v Speaker 1>talk to. You talk to some high powered women. Uh,

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<v Speaker 1>Mindy Grossman, I know, Mindy Well DuPont Ellen Coleman, the

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<v Speaker 1>CEO is a birch box at the runway. Tell us

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<v Speaker 1>a little bit about what you got from those conversations. Well,

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<v Speaker 1>one of the things I got from those conversations is

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<v Speaker 1>that these women refused to be held hostage. That's something

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<v Speaker 1>called working mother guilt. They were very, very secure and

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<v Speaker 1>comfortable in their own skin in terms of the roles

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<v Speaker 1>they had chosen for themselves to be both executives and

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<v Speaker 1>for mothers. And frankly, one of those individuals, one of

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<v Speaker 1>those boomer mom, suggested I write an entire chapter on

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<v Speaker 1>the issue of how to ditch working mother guilt. So

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<v Speaker 1>I collected the ten best hacks from both generations, and it's, frankly,

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<v Speaker 1>one of the more popular chapters in the book. Well,

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<v Speaker 1>and it's interesting, Um, well, what did you take away

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<v Speaker 1>from what they said? How did they get over it

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<v Speaker 1>or how did they Because it's one thing to say

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<v Speaker 1>I'm not gonna fit. It's another thing to actually feel

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<v Speaker 1>it exactly. And so first starters, you decide that at

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<v Speaker 1>the outset of when you're starting to feel working mother guilt,

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<v Speaker 1>that you're not going to own it, that you are

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<v Speaker 1>to accept the fact that you have imperfections, and that

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<v Speaker 1>you're going to celebrate the good parts of your life

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<v Speaker 1>and not dwell on the bad. And so the great

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<v Speaker 1>example that the woman who gave the inspiration for that

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<v Speaker 1>chapter gave me was you're sitting down for dinner yet

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<v Speaker 1>again and at seven o'clock, and it's you know, you

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<v Speaker 1>haven't been able to get down done with work while

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<v Speaker 1>working from home soon. In this, rather than beat yourself

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<v Speaker 1>internally about this, celebrate the fact that, gosh, I'm having

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<v Speaker 1>dinner with my children and my significant other. Isn't that wonderful? Yeah? No,

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<v Speaker 1>exactly right, Like kind of just change how you're thinking

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<v Speaker 1>and addressing it. Hey, one thing I want to ask you,

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<v Speaker 1>because you did speak to some very prominent, very very

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<v Speaker 1>successful women, there has been at times some criticism I

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<v Speaker 1>think of some of the more successful women who are

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<v Speaker 1>at the top, you know, saying well, I can kind

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<v Speaker 1>of have it all or I can juggle it, or

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<v Speaker 1>I can figure it out, because they can often afford

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<v Speaker 1>to have help, whether it's taking care of the kids

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<v Speaker 1>and so on, and not every mom has that ability

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<v Speaker 1>to do that. How do you dress? Of course not,

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<v Speaker 1>But that was the whole point why I focused on

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<v Speaker 1>these women at the executive level, because they are definitely

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<v Speaker 1>women of privilege, and if they are having a difficult time,

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<v Speaker 1>and it's still the case even in many respects for

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<v Speaker 1>that younger wave, then that speaks volumes about what's wrong

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<v Speaker 1>with our larger society. And what's wrong with our larger

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<v Speaker 1>society is that we don't as a country value parenthood.

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<v Speaker 1>We see it as something that is an individual responsibility,

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<v Speaker 1>not a social responsibility. And until we change not only

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<v Speaker 1>our perception of what sexual stereotypes are and what we

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<v Speaker 1>expect the perfect mother is like versus the father, and

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<v Speaker 1>until we have, for instance, government mandated paid parental leave,

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<v Speaker 1>then we're unfortunately going to be stuck in a society

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<v Speaker 1>in which it is very very difficult to be a

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<v Speaker 1>working parent, especially below that level. These are Listen, you

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<v Speaker 1>understand this world, and you understand workplace issues, and this

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<v Speaker 1>year has been ripe with workplace issues, whether it's you know,

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<v Speaker 1>we're spending a lot more time talking about not only

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<v Speaker 1>physical well being, but mental well being and a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of different issues. What happens do you think or based

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<v Speaker 1>on the conversations you continue to have with you know,

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<v Speaker 1>successful leaders, heads of companies, what happens on the other

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<v Speaker 1>side of this when it comes to working women. Well,

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<v Speaker 1>I think what happens on the other side of it

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<v Speaker 1>when it comes to working women is that there has

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<v Speaker 1>been a profound change in how we view where and

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<v Speaker 1>how we work. And that's because of this successful experiment

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<v Speaker 1>and working from home. It was definitely the exception, not

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<v Speaker 1>the rule, and it's been the role for many many

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<v Speaker 1>white collar employees over the last year or so. And so,

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<v Speaker 1>as you were pointing out, we're going to have hybrid workplaces.

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<v Speaker 1>It is going to be possible to be successful in

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<v Speaker 1>your career and not be commuting five days a week.

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<v Speaker 1>In some companies the option will be to do it

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<v Speaker 1>part time, and others that will be to do it

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<v Speaker 1>full time. But for women in particular, they're going to

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<v Speaker 1>have to work harder at being visible to the extent

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<v Speaker 1>that they continue working remotely, They're going to have to

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<v Speaker 1>be better networkers, and they're going to have to learn

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<v Speaker 1>how to network virtually and make sure that they have

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<v Speaker 1>sponsors and mentors at key points in their careers and

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<v Speaker 1>different sponsors and mentors at different times. Hey, listen, just

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<v Speaker 1>got about thirty forty seconds left it there was I'm

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<v Speaker 1>thinking for the leaders that are maybe listening at this moment,

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<v Speaker 1>if there was one policy that they could change that

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<v Speaker 1>could you know, help mothers, help women, uh in their

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<v Speaker 1>careers at this point, what would it be? Just quickly,

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<v Speaker 1>it would it would be to judge people on their results,

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<v Speaker 1>not on the hours worked. That was nice, short and

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<v Speaker 1>sweet and a great a great way to wrap it up. Um, Joanne,

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<v Speaker 1>thank you so much, really really appreciate it. Joanne Lublin

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<v Speaker 1>Cheese Wall Street Journal contributor her new book. As I said,

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<v Speaker 1>she's written several books about workplace issues, but her latest

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<v Speaker 1>book called Power Moms, How exact get of mothers navigate

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<v Speaker 1>work and life. And like I said, she covered this

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<v Speaker 1>in a column for the Wall Street Journal for many

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<v Speaker 1>many years