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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, a shock twist in the

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Speaker 1: mystery death of a bride to be. A beautiful young

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Speaker 1: first grade teacher bride to be after she's viciously stabbed

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Speaker 1: twenty times at least twenty times, including in the back

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Speaker 1: of the neck, the back of the head, and it's

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Speaker 1: bizarrely ruled a suicide. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 2: The parents of a young teacher stabbed twenty times and

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Speaker 2: ruled a suicide are hit with more devastating news when

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Speaker 2: the District Attorney's office places their daughter's case into an

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Speaker 2: active status. In another blow to Josh and Sandy Greenberg's

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Speaker 2: ongoing efforts to find justice for their daughter, Ellen Greenberg,

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Speaker 2: the Chester County District's Attorney's Office announces that they cannot

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Speaker 2: prove beyond a reasonable doubt that a crime was committed

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Speaker 2: when their daughter, Ellen Greenberg died from twenty knife wounds

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Speaker 2: to the back of her head, neck, and chest. Due

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Speaker 2: to this, the investigation into the death of Ellen Greenberg

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Speaker 2: is now placed as inactive.

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Speaker 1: Did I mention the bruising all across her body? Did

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Speaker 1: I mention the bruising along her strap muscle, classic size

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Speaker 1: of strangulation. So wait, let me understand it. She wasn't

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Speaker 1: just stabbed dead at least twenty nine times twenty times.

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Speaker 1: I believe some of those stab wounds were overlapping. I

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Speaker 1: think she could have been stabbed more than twenty times,

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Speaker 1: but I will go with twenty twenty times, including a

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Speaker 1: slice that cut the dura of her spine, her spinal cord.

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Speaker 1: She did that to herself, are you kidding me? Bruising

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Speaker 1: about the net, even little fingernail marks around her neck.

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Speaker 1: So she not only stabbed herself, but she also strangled

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Speaker 1: her Okay, not okay? In the last days, a bizarre

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Speaker 1: twist to the case, joining me in all start peddl

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Speaker 1: including John Lucy, investigative journalists for penlive dot com. But

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Speaker 1: first to Sandy and Josh Greenberg Ellen's parents. You know

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Speaker 1: when you first learned that there's going to be an

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Speaker 1: announcement from the Chester County das you texted me went

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Speaker 1: there's announcement, and for one brief shining moment, Sandy I thought,

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Speaker 1: oh my stars, somebody is finally going to do the

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Speaker 1: right thing. When did you realize that they're saying they're

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Speaker 1: not doing a dam n thing.

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Speaker 3: I had to release the press release at least six

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Speaker 3: times and run through it over and over and over again.

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Speaker 3: And what comes to mind is when you're doing an

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Speaker 3: investigation and you're only looking through the people, that's all

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Speaker 3: you're going to see. If you open the door and

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Speaker 3: you look at everything, you see a whole lot more.

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Speaker 3: And that speaks volumes.

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Speaker 1: Yes, Sandy, and I was reading I was rereading my

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Speaker 1: text from you, and I saw it where you said,

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Speaker 1: what does this mean? What are they excited to say?

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Speaker 1: Because it was it was very circuitous to Ellen's dad

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Speaker 1: joining us. Josh Greenberg, what was your response when you

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Speaker 1: finally figured out what they were trying to say.

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Speaker 4: I'm still not sure what they're trying to say.

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Speaker 1: I think they were.

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Speaker 4: Trying to avoid saying anything for whatever reason, which I

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Speaker 4: sort of appreciate because they didn't say anything. And yes,

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Speaker 4: they made the case inactive, because I believe there's a

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Speaker 4: sentence after that saying that all homicide cases have unlimited

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Speaker 4: time for exposure if anything should come up. So it's

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Speaker 4: sort of like, well, that's right hand said, the right

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Speaker 4: hand says one thing, the left hand says something else,

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Speaker 4: but neither one is very conclusive. I think I want

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Speaker 4: to thank Chester County for doing an investigation. I wish

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Speaker 4: it was deeper and more detailed. They did give us

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Speaker 4: the chance to hear what it was said before we

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Speaker 4: before they released the press release, so we do appreciate that.

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Speaker 4: But as for the depth of the investigation, shallow is

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Speaker 4: not even a good word. There is no depth there.

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Speaker 1: Joining me is John Lucy, investigative journalists for Penlive dot

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Speaker 1: com and Patriot News Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. He specializes in true

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Speaker 1: crime and cold case investigations. He's author of Kill the Story.

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Speaker 1: John Lucy, thank you for being with us. Yes, both

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Speaker 1: Josh and Sandy are correct. It is very confusing. You

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Speaker 1: know what I find, John Lucy, that people himn hau

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Speaker 1: around when they don't want to just come out and

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Speaker 1: say it. What they said to my understanding is we

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Speaker 1: can't prove this beyond a reasonable doubt, and therefore we're

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Speaker 1: putting it on inactive status. In active that means it

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Speaker 1: is not an active, ongoing investigation. And at the end,

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Speaker 1: I guess they thought they were throwing Josh and Sandy

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Speaker 1: some kind of a bone. But remember there's no statute

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Speaker 1: of limitations on murder. If anybody would ever get off

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Speaker 1: their rear ends and work this case, then maybe one

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Speaker 1: day we'll get the answer basically as what they're saying.

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Speaker 1: But that person ain't going to be us. We're not

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Speaker 1: doing anything. I mean, come on, their expert has a

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Speaker 1: degree in entomology, the study of bugs.

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Speaker 5: Really well, Nancy, here's the problem. As long is it's

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Speaker 5: ruled a suicide, No DA is going to take this case.

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Speaker 5: That has been the original sin of this case. Remember

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Speaker 5: when the police were called to the crime scene on

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Speaker 5: January twenty sixth, twenty eleven, Ellen's fiance intimated on that

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Speaker 5: bizarre nine to one one call that she stabbed herself.

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Speaker 5: They treated it as a suicide, a probable suicide. The

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Speaker 5: night that they investigated the crime scene, they in fact

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Speaker 5: did not hold it as a crime scene the apartment

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Speaker 5: where she died of twenty stab wounds. The next day,

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Speaker 5: the Philadelphia Medical Examiner did rule the homicide, but that

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Speaker 5: was changed three months later, and we know that there

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Speaker 5: was secret meetings between detectives and the Medical Examiner's office

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Speaker 5: that led to that change. It's remained a suicide ever since.

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Speaker 5: And no DA, not the Attorney General of PA, who

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Speaker 5: spent four years on case is going to change that

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Speaker 5: because in Pennsylvania, the only one that can change the

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Speaker 5: ruling of a medical examiner or coroner is that medical

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Speaker 5: examiner or corner. And that's why the Greenbergs are before

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Speaker 5: the Pennsylvania Supreme Court right now trying to change that

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Speaker 5: suicide ruling, because as long as this case is branded

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Speaker 5: with that, it's not going to go forward. No DA

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Speaker 5: is going to spend time on it, because they are right,

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Speaker 5: that is reasonable doubt. You could drive a truck through

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Speaker 5: as long as it's as long as it's a suicide.

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Speaker 4: Two.

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Speaker 1: Then I now are joining me investigative reporter and co

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Speaker 1: author of What Happened to Ellen? An American Miscarriage of Justice.

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Speaker 1: All proceeds from the book What Happened To Ellen are

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Speaker 1: going to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children

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Speaker 1: available two that details and nearly three hundred pages. What

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Speaker 1: you are about to hear Ben an Hour describe from

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Speaker 1: your layperson point of view, the injuries to Ellen and

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Speaker 1: why this is not and cannot be a suicide. Then

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Speaker 1: we'll bring on the death investigator hit it Beney. Alrighty.

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Speaker 6: First of all, Ellen was stabbed, as you said at

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Speaker 6: least twenty times. Some of those stabbed wounds have been

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Speaker 6: brought into question whether they were done post mortems. If

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Speaker 6: they were, then Ellen could not have been alive to

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Speaker 6: have done them. Some of them were described as being

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Speaker 6: so profoundly painful and destabilizing that one could not keep

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Speaker 6: doing to continue to do anything after them. So there

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Speaker 6: are so many questions about these wounds. They are so brutal.

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Speaker 6: The crime scene was messed with, There was not a

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Speaker 6: lot of blood at the crime scene. The crime scene

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Speaker 6: was never treated like a crime scene because of mishandling

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Speaker 6: by the police department and who allowed family members to

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Speaker 6: come in and take things, take vital things. There are

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Speaker 6: so many levels of questions, and anybody who hears this story,

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Speaker 6: including the publisher of this book, keeps coming back with no,

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Speaker 6: that's not possible, almost to the point, where are you

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Speaker 6: sure did you check your facts? Are you sure you

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Speaker 6: got this right? Because this can't be That's what we

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Speaker 6: get over and.

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Speaker 1: Over and exactly. You know, Benay, when you and I

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Speaker 1: were writing the book together, I describe how when I

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Speaker 1: fir first read about this before I met Josh and Sandy,

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Speaker 1: I kept looking for that magical fact that would make me. No, Okay,

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Speaker 1: they got it right, I'm wrong, that fact never emerged.

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Speaker 1: Justice Scott Morgan is joining me, Professor Forensics said Jacksonville

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Speaker 1: State University, and what a criminal justice program they've got

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Speaker 1: going on. I was just there for the dedication of

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Speaker 1: a whole new justice program. Facility is amazing. Author of

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Speaker 1: Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, host of a hit

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Speaker 1: series Bodybags with Joseph Scott Morgan. It goes on, but

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Speaker 1: for my purposes. He is a death investigator with literally

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Speaker 1: thousands of death seeing investigations under his belt. Everything that

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Speaker 1: Benetnaur just said is true, but I want to hear

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Speaker 1: it from a medical death investigator point of view. Joe

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Speaker 1: Scott Morgan, who study this case not just for tonight,

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Speaker 1: but helped benay and helped me write the new book

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Speaker 1: What happened to Ellen? Exhaustive exhaustive research he did. Okay,

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Speaker 1: Joe Scott, you gave me so much information that Benet

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Speaker 1: and I could hardly put it in the book. Okay,

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Speaker 1: because it would be a whole other volume. But could

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Speaker 1: you explain medically speaking, forget the mishandling of the scene,

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Speaker 1: forget that. We'll come back to that, but medically speaking,

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Speaker 1: on the face of it, this is not a suicide.

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Speaker 1: Why are they doing this? Tellen, I don't get it.

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Speaker 7: I don't know, having worked self inflicted stab wounds over

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Speaker 7: the course of my career, the thought that you could

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Speaker 7: have this many with all of these pain centers firing

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Speaker 7: at one time, and layer upon layer a layer is

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Speaker 7: beyond the pale. That's what you know. And listen. They

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Speaker 7: had mentioned just a second ago about publishers and these

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Speaker 7: sorts of things that are talking about how they can't

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Speaker 7: believe it. Nancy. I've spoken with many friends of mine,

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Speaker 7: colleagues that are also forensic scientists, and they're saying that

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Speaker 7: this is something that is inexplicable, that they have never

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Speaker 7: seen a case like this that rises to this level

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Speaker 7: of violence. And I will call it violence. And I

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Speaker 7: don't think that for any two seconds anybody worth their

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Speaker 7: salt in my field would say that this is self inflicted.

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Speaker 7: I don't see how in the world you can do it.

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Speaker 7: And we talked about the biomechanics of this. What's really

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Speaker 7: kind of interesting is the idea of someone, an individual

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Speaker 7: like Ellen, being able to take this knife and essentially

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Speaker 7: assault herself. This diagram beautifully done and rendered the idea

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Speaker 7: that you could inflict these many insult to the posterior

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Speaker 7: that means on the backside, like this extending your arm

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Speaker 7: over your shoulder. It's implausible, Nancy. This defies all laws,

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Speaker 7: all laws of physical science, to be able to accomplish this.

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Speaker 7: And here's the big tell for me. You know, there

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Speaker 7: was a member of the medical examiner staff in Philly

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Speaker 7: that also gave a rendering about this case, and if

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Speaker 7: I'm not mistaken, it was done as a result of

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Speaker 7: a deposition. This individual actually stated that this blow that

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Speaker 7: took place to the back of the neck, in her

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Speaker 7: estimation at least, was an anti mortem insult or at

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Speaker 7: best a pery mortem, which means in the throes of death.

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Speaker 7: So you've got the actual autopsy where the individual, the

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Speaker 7: pathologist is say, oh no, no, no, no. This insult to

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Speaker 7: the back of the neck that clips the clips the

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Speaker 7: spinal column. There is post mortem, and you can't have

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Speaker 7: it both ways, Nancy. As you mentioned earlier, there's hemorrhage

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Speaker 7: in there, and they think that that in this physically

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Speaker 7: implausible that she could have done this on her own.

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Speaker 1: Josh and Sandy, I know that you are not numb

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Speaker 1: that this still hurts, But God willing one day you

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Speaker 1: will see this disgust in front of a jury. Joe Scott,

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Speaker 1: look at this. You've looked at it many times. But

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Speaker 1: how And Josh and Sandy Ellen was right handed? Correct

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Speaker 1: correct crime stories with Nancy Grace, Joe Scott number one

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Speaker 1: on the name. On one call, we hear that her

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Speaker 1: face is purple. I want to know why is her

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Speaker 1: face purple? Number one? Why she's cold to the touch

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Speaker 1: in that very short interval her body got completely cold

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Speaker 1: in like an hour. But these stablish That's what I

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Speaker 1: really want you to talk. How can somebody right handed

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Speaker 1: stab themselves on the left side of the neck at

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Speaker 1: an upward angle right handed? How do you take a knife?

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Speaker 1: And what okay do that? I mean, I'm having to

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Speaker 1: use my left hand to force my rent and they

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Speaker 1: were all across the back of her neck. Impossible for

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Speaker 1: a right handed person to do that.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, it is. And every time this knife and please

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Speaker 7: I beg forgiveness on the part of her parents here,

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Speaker 7: but every time this knife is inserted, you have a

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Speaker 7: pain center that fires in life. And this is almost intolerable.

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Speaker 7: And the idea that you could manipulate the knife at

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Speaker 7: these odd angles like this is implausible to me, and

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Speaker 7: over and over and over. We're not just talking about

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Speaker 7: one or two kind of passive cuts or stabs or

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Speaker 7: in sized areas. We're talking about multiple insertions of this

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Speaker 7: knife into her body. I don't see how that is possible.

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Speaker 7: There's no way that you will ever certainly convince me.

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Speaker 7: It's up to the courts as to whether or not

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Speaker 7: that they're going to well, it's up to the me

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Speaker 7: as to whether or not they're going to change a

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Speaker 7: ruling on this case. And to the discolouration in her face.

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Speaker 7: This is fascinating, isn't it. Nancy? You mentioned the strap

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Speaker 7: muscles earlier and how there were focal apparently focal areas

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Speaker 7: of hemorrhage in those areas. And where do we see that, Nancy,

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Speaker 7: you've done it.

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Speaker 1: You say focal areas of hemorrhage. You mean you can

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Speaker 1: see the bruises yescal areas of hemorrhage.

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Speaker 7: Bruiges, right, yeah, where you have these in the strap muscles.

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Speaker 7: Strap muscles are a configuration of four muscles that are

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Speaker 7: essentially latterly oriented kind of crisscross in this area and

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Speaker 7: It's something that we look for many times with a

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Speaker 7: shixeald desks or manual strangulation.

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Speaker 1: And Joe Scott, isn't it true as you point out

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Speaker 1: that there are fingernail marks around her neck?

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Speaker 7: Yeah, that has been alluded to, and I've kind of

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Speaker 7: given this primer before, but if people just kind of

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Speaker 7: think about if you look at the long axis of

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Speaker 7: your finger, look down at through your nail and you

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Speaker 7: see how it has that kind of elliptical shape, You'll

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Speaker 7: see that transferred onto the neck most of the time

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Speaker 7: when you have these nail marks, and it's quite striking,

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Speaker 7: you know when you see it. And for those of

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Speaker 7: us that have spent time in the morgue, which I

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Speaker 7: have for many many years and have work cases out

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Speaker 7: on scenes, it's glaring, you know when you see it.

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Speaker 7: And this goes again to this idea and I know

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Speaker 7: you didn't want to talk about this, but it goes

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Speaker 7: to the idea of locking the scene down and securing

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Speaker 7: the scene and processing it from the beginning. You know

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Speaker 7: when you have this implanted in your brain as an investigator,

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Speaker 7: that this is a suicide and that's the narrative you're

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Speaker 7: going to run with instead of coming in with a

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Speaker 7: clean slate and pushing everybody out of the door, working

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Speaker 7: the damn scene, locking the thing down so that you

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Speaker 7: can get everybody out there. You're behind the eight ball

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Speaker 7: at that point in time, because you've already predisposed yourself

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Speaker 7: to the way you're going to look at it from

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Speaker 7: a physical science perspective.

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Speaker 1: She was right in the middle of making a fruit salad.

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Speaker 1: In fact, her body was found with a completely clean

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Speaker 1: and pristine washrag in her left hand, and then she

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Speaker 1: suddenly decides, Oh, you know what, screw the fruit salad.

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Speaker 1: I'm killing myself right now in the most painful way

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Speaker 1: I possibly can.

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Speaker 7: Can I please interject something here real quickly?

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Speaker 1: I will I stop you?

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Speaker 7: No, you can't. So for me. I've worked two cases

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Speaker 7: in my career where an individual has died of self

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Speaker 7: inflicted stab wounds. I'm not talking about incized wounds where

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Speaker 7: the wrist is cut. I'm talking about stab wounds Nancy.

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Speaker 7: In both In both of those cases, the individual was

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Speaker 7: wildly psychotic. In both of these cases, as a matter

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Speaker 7: of fact, one guy had done it, and he was

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Speaker 7: a paranoid, schizphrenic, and he thought that he was being

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Speaker 7: listened to by the government looking for microphones in his body.

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Speaker 7: Do you understand what I'm saying here. That's the level

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Speaker 7: of pain that this extends to, that you would have

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Speaker 7: to be out of your mind. And to the best

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Speaker 7: of my knowledge, and I've talked to Sandy and to

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Speaker 7: Josh over the years since we've been covering this, there's

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Speaker 7: no indication that this was going on with Ellen, that

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Speaker 7: she was having some kind of psychotic break.

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Speaker 8: The Chester County District Attorney's Office says detectives reviewed investigations

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Speaker 8: of the case conducted by the Philadelphia Police and Attorney

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Speaker 8: General's office. The detectives also conducted new interviews and consulted

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Speaker 8: with an independent forensic expert. A spokesperson for the Chester

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Speaker 8: County DA's office says this standard of proof beyond a

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Speaker 8: reasonable doubt makes the criminal investigation different than other legal

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Speaker 8: cases or issues that surround Miss Greenberg's death.

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Speaker 1: Joining us an all star panel to make sense of

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Speaker 1: this bizarre twist and the Ellen Greenberg murder. Yes, I

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Speaker 1: said murder, because it is not a suicide. Joining me.

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Speaker 1: In addition to Ellen's parents, who devoted their time, their energy, years,

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Speaker 1: their life savings, they just sold their house to seek

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Speaker 1: justice with a fleet of experts to John Lucy joining

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Speaker 1: me in addition to Josh and Sandy Greenberg. John, the

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Speaker 1: expert that the state used consulted with is actually a

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Speaker 1: guy that has an undergrad degree. Hey, I got an

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Speaker 1: undergrad degree in Shakespeare studies, but I am not an

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Speaker 1: expert that said, really, that's what they're hanging their hat on.

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Speaker 5: Well, I have to agree with Ellen Ellen's parents here

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Speaker 5: where this investigation was shallow at best. And I certainly

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Speaker 5: agree with all your experts on this panel who point

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Speaker 5: up all the reasons forensically why this is a homicide

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Speaker 5: not a suicide. But you know your intro talked about

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Speaker 5: in Pennsylvania, medical examiners and corners are right even when

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Speaker 5: they are wrong under Pennsylvania law. And that is the

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Speaker 5: real problem with this case. It's fighting, it's fighting the law,

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Speaker 5: not the evidence. And that's where we're at in Pennsylvania

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Speaker 5: Supreme Court, fighting the law not the evidence. And that's

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Speaker 5: really the problem why pretty much any investigation based on

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Speaker 5: whether this whether there was a crime committee is kind

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Speaker 5: of a non starter as long as it's branded with

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Speaker 5: that suicide ruling, which I think that has to be changed.

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Speaker 5: First for all the other stuff that we wanted to

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Speaker 5: happen to go forward.

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Speaker 1: Tom Brennan joining me now, private investigator who has been

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Speaker 1: working on this case with the Greenbergs from the get go.

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Speaker 1: Tom Brennan, we keep saying it's a suicide ruling. It's

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Speaker 1: a suicide ruling. B s. It was originally named within

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Speaker 1: twenty four hours this is a homicide, which it is,

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Speaker 1: And then which we have documented, there was a secret

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Speaker 1: meeting between the medical examiner that called it a homicide,

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Speaker 1: a member from the DA's office who has now been

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Speaker 1: given immunity so she can't be prosecuted for this high immunity,

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Speaker 1: and people from the police department. And in that meeting,

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Speaker 1: which nobody will tell us what happened. Oh hell no.

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Speaker 1: In that meeting them actually says I was what would

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Speaker 1: you say, would you say coerced? No, I was persuaded

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Speaker 1: to change my ruling from a homicide to suicide. It's

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Speaker 1: total bs. It stinks to high heaven. What is wrong

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Speaker 1: with the Chester District Attorney? Do they not have any

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Speaker 1: balls at all?

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Speaker 9: What you have to understand, okay, with this case. It

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Speaker 9: was in the Attorney General's office. The folks in the

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Speaker 9: Attorney General's office. Were the same folks that were in

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Speaker 9: the DA's office when this crime occurred. Okay, so now they're.

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Speaker 1: Reviewing that, they're sticking to their story, right right, forty

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Speaker 1: six one.

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Speaker 10: Spider Rock Road, please Herry, Yeah, I just I went

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Speaker 10: downstairs to go work out. I came back up the

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Speaker 10: door and the lash my face inside.

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Speaker 11: She wasn't she wasn't answering.

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Speaker 10: So after about a half hour, I decided to break

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Speaker 10: it down. I see her now it's on the floor before.

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Speaker 10: She's not she's not responding. Okay, keep breathing. I can

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Speaker 10: look at her test.

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Speaker 6: I needing to calm down.

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Speaker 3: I need to test, Okay, I really.

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Speaker 10: Someone going away, look her chest, bet on bank, We'll

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Speaker 10: get her test and tell me. And just going to

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Speaker 10: open out, open down.

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Speaker 1: I don't see her moving just she wasn't exactly on

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Speaker 1: her back?

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Speaker 7: Why she no, she wasn't. She was not on her back.

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Speaker 7: And you know that that's something that has you know,

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Speaker 7: gotten into the narrative of this, which is quite fascinating

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Speaker 7: to me. And there's one other thing that kind of

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Speaker 7: really stands out about this call what's missing as far

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Speaker 7: as information goes relative to this, and it comes up

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Speaker 7: a little bit later. I'm not trying to bury the lead.

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Speaker 7: But what about the knife?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I know I've embedded in her chest. Listen to

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Speaker 1: more than nine to one one.

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Speaker 10: Okay, you know.

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Speaker 2: How is this CBR?

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Speaker 10: I go, okay, I'm gonna tell you what to do

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Speaker 10: until they get here.

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Speaker 1: Ye.

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Speaker 10: Well the CDR with me over.

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Speaker 5: The Okay, so you know her bank for her chest bag.

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Speaker 6: Over for sure?

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Speaker 12: All okay, yeeld me.

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Speaker 6: Out by her side.

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Speaker 4: Merger.

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Speaker 10: Please you can't freak out. Okay, I'm trying. I'm trying to.

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Speaker 10: Her shirt won't come off as a zipper. She stabbed

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Speaker 10: herself where her nice sticking out the nice sticking out

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Speaker 10: of her hunter does he stands herself? I guess. So

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Speaker 10: I don't know where she's felling it. I don't know. Okay, Well,

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Speaker 10: don't take it.

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Speaker 1: And there in the nine on one call. That is

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Speaker 1: the first time suicide or accident is stated. O MG.

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Speaker 1: She stabbed herself, then later she fell on a nine.

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Speaker 1: Joining me is Matthew Mangino, high profile lawyer and author

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Speaker 1: of the Executioner's Toll. Matthew uh former prosecutor in Lawrence

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Speaker 1: County in Pennsylvania. Matthew me Gino. That's where we first here,

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Speaker 1: she stabbed herself or there was an accent that she

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Speaker 1: fell on the knife twenty times Matthew, Why is it

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Speaker 1: that when a medical examiner admits he was pressured by

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Speaker 1: police to change his ruling, and I believe Guillino, who

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Speaker 1: was his supervisor, later said he would change if he could,

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Speaker 1: he would change the medical examiner decision. But why is

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Speaker 1: it when it's so obviously wrong, that that cannot be challenged?

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Speaker 12: Matt Well, you know that's the law in Pennsylvania, that's

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Speaker 12: the manner in which the legislature approached this issue.

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Speaker 11: I don't agree with it.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 11: My impression about this is that you have a botched

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Speaker 11: investigation and then you have a cover up, and that

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Speaker 11: cover up by the DA's office the police ultimately led

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Speaker 11: to the Attorney General reviewing this and Chester County, And

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Speaker 11: I think you have to sort of read between the lines.

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Speaker 12: With regard to Chester County. They're saying, hey, there's problems

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Speaker 12: here and we don't think we can prove this case.

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Speaker 12: But you know, there may be you know, light at

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Speaker 12: the end of the tunnel if this was properly investigated.

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Speaker 12: Because there's no statutical limitations in Pennsylvania.

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Speaker 1: Would it could have, should have man Gino if it

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Speaker 1: was properly investigated. Isn't it their duty to properly investigate it?

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Speaker 1: Why have Josh and Sandy had to spend their life

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Speaker 1: savings and sell their home to investigate this case. Why

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Speaker 1: doesn't the district attorney get off his rear end and

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Speaker 1: do something. Yeah, they can't prove it beyond a reasonable

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Speaker 1: doubt unless they get up and try.

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Speaker 12: And I think that's one thing that they didn't count

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Speaker 12: on in the situation when when they when they botched

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Speaker 12: the investigation and then they tried to cover it up

435
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:02,880
Speaker 12: by putting pressure on the medical examiner. They never contemplated

436
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:07,679
Speaker 12: that the Greenberg family would not give up on this,

437
00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:10,920
Speaker 12: that they would continue to fight and fight year after

438
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:14,920
Speaker 12: year after year, and ultimately, I think because of their efforts,

439
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:19,800
Speaker 12: this matter can still be put on the front burner

440
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:25,560
Speaker 12: and properly investigated and brought before a jury to bring

441
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:27,600
Speaker 12: some justice to Ellen into her family.

442
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:30,280
Speaker 1: Just can't believe it's gone on so long, and isn't

443
00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:34,440
Speaker 1: it true? Been an Hour who extensively investigated the case herself,

444
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:39,320
Speaker 1: co author of What Happened to Ellen All proceeds going

445
00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:45,240
Speaker 1: to National Center Missing Exploited Children, Repeat all proceeds, Beney.

446
00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:53,240
Speaker 1: Isn't it true that doctor Osborne's supervisor, the medical examiner,

447
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:59,160
Speaker 1: said that he would change the ruling if he could,

448
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:02,880
Speaker 1: that to homicide or at least to undetermined.

449
00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:11,320
Speaker 6: Absolutely. Absolutely. There has been no even signal that anybody

450
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:15,440
Speaker 6: is willing to change a single thing. It just makes

451
00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:21,280
Speaker 6: everything feel messier, more questionable, more like a possible cover up.

452
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:22,680
Speaker 6: Everybody is.

453
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:30,400
Speaker 1: I disagree. I disagree because John Lucy Gillino, who was

454
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:34,880
Speaker 1: Osborne who made the ruling boss, says he would change

455
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:38,640
Speaker 1: the ruling. Osbourne admits he thought it was a homicide

456
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:42,040
Speaker 1: until police and the district attorney assist. A district attorney

457
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:46,480
Speaker 1: pressured him to change it to suicide. Well, what else

458
00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:48,480
Speaker 1: is there? That's all I need to hear.

459
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:51,440
Speaker 5: Well, my answer is someone needs to stroke a pen

460
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:56,240
Speaker 5: on the dotted line and change it. Then verbally doesn't

461
00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:59,320
Speaker 5: get it done, They have to sign the document changing

462
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:03,080
Speaker 5: it back to homicide where it was the twenty four

463
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:05,080
Speaker 5: hours after her death.

464
00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:16,280
Speaker 2: Ellen Greenberg's parents want to know why the judge, uncle

465
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:20,760
Speaker 2: to Ellen's fiance, was allowed to remove items from the

466
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:23,640
Speaker 2: scene before the police searched.

467
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:28,480
Speaker 10: I went away off here. Oh my god, Oh my god,

468
00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:40,240
Speaker 10: all her arm at least she was about to pay.

469
00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:45,720
Speaker 2: Y's.

470
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:50,400
Speaker 10: Her hands are so warm me. I know, but you

471
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:52,840
Speaker 10: can't in the nicest fill my sad. How far can

472
00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 10: you see? How far I win?

473
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:54,320
Speaker 1: Is it?

474
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:56,719
Speaker 10: Look okay?

475
00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:01,680
Speaker 11: Warmer so qushing is anything.

476
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:03,320
Speaker 2: I can't believe?

477
00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:07,440
Speaker 1: Matthew Mangino joining US high profile lawyer who prosecuted and

478
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:13,840
Speaker 1: defense in Pennsylvania, this jurisdiction, Matthew Mangino in a nutshell?

479
00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:17,760
Speaker 1: Don't there any Latin phrases at me? What if anything

480
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:22,960
Speaker 1: can be done? Now? The age who works for the governor,

481
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:28,880
Speaker 1: who is Shapiro, who earlier shirked his duty on this case,

482
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:32,920
Speaker 1: he's not going to confess to that now, What if

483
00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:35,640
Speaker 1: anything can be done? Matthew, Well, I.

484
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:39,240
Speaker 12: Think, just like any cold case, this investigation can be

485
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:43,680
Speaker 12: you know, reinstituted. You know, the detectives can take another

486
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:46,800
Speaker 12: look at it. They can look at the evidence that

487
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:49,800
Speaker 12: was found there. Although we know there's a sort of

488
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:54,640
Speaker 12: contaminated crime. They can begin to question in canvas and

489
00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:57,440
Speaker 12: go back and interview people to find out more about

490
00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:00,440
Speaker 12: the dynamics of this relationship. As well, I.

491
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:02,640
Speaker 1: Guess what I'm asking Tom Brennan, even on the case

492
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:05,800
Speaker 1: from the very beginning, is say what he just said,

493
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:08,040
Speaker 1: in an ideal world would be true. But we know

494
00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:13,520
Speaker 1: that's not happening. They're not reinvestigating it. So practically speaking, Tom,

495
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:15,560
Speaker 1: what can be done? Now?

496
00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:21,520
Speaker 9: Did they reinterview Phil Hamton okay, who who was working

497
00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:22,200
Speaker 9: in the lobby.

498
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 6: No?

499
00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:27,400
Speaker 9: Did they ever reinterview Melissa ware, the property manager.

500
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:28,080
Speaker 3: No?

501
00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:35,920
Speaker 9: Did they ever reinterview doctor Lucy Rourke who in the

502
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:41,240
Speaker 9: autopsy report she's quoted as saying that the stab wounds

503
00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:45,040
Speaker 9: are such that are not that grave and the victim

504
00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:48,680
Speaker 9: could continue to harm herself. And Lucy Rourke says, no,

505
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:52,240
Speaker 9: I never was involved in the case. Did they reinterview

506
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:53,200
Speaker 9: any of those people?

507
00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:53,720
Speaker 2: No?

508
00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:59,560
Speaker 9: Why not? If you're doing a complete, thorough investigation, why

509
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:01,520
Speaker 9: don't you interview those people.

510
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:06,440
Speaker 1: So we know that. My question is what recourse is there?

511
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:06,680
Speaker 7: Now?

512
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:10,760
Speaker 1: That's what I keep asking, and I'm not getting an answer, John, Lucy,

513
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:16,480
Speaker 1: is there anything that can be done now? As Brennan

514
00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:19,480
Speaker 1: and man Gina just said, yeah, they could do blah

515
00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:22,960
Speaker 1: blah blah. Yeah, that's all true, but they're not they're

516
00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:29,000
Speaker 1: not investigating this case. They're not uncovering the wrongdoing that

517
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:31,520
Speaker 1: was done at the scene when it was just taken

518
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:35,160
Speaker 1: for granted. Oh yeah, this is a suicide case. Closed,

519
00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:39,280
Speaker 1: let's go home. They authorized and even suggested a pro

520
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:43,400
Speaker 1: cleaner to clean the crime scene, getting rid of all

521
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:49,120
Speaker 1: the evidence. They said, sure, family members, not the Greenberg's

522
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:53,720
Speaker 1: family members or others can take items. Sure they can

523
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:57,720
Speaker 1: take the laptop and all of the recent searches and

524
00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:01,040
Speaker 1: the contact with Yeah, sure take it. The police did that.

525
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:07,080
Speaker 1: But most disturbingly is that secret meeting where the medical

526
00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:12,680
Speaker 1: examiner was told change this from homicide to suicide and

527
00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:18,840
Speaker 1: he did it that. Why can't that be investigated?

528
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:22,080
Speaker 5: Well, I think what can be done are what Josh

529
00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:27,360
Speaker 5: and Sandy are doing. They are suing the Philadelphia Medical

530
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 5: Examiner and the detectives involved in the case, alleging a conspiracy.

531
00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:36,240
Speaker 5: They're challenging the suicide ruling at the Pennsylvania Supreme Court,

532
00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:41,239
Speaker 5: and they are winning because of Tom's team and all

533
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:44,800
Speaker 5: the evidence they've amassed over ten years. They are winning

534
00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:49,160
Speaker 5: in the court of public opinion. So they're doing everything

535
00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:53,560
Speaker 5: that they can to put these guys under oath and

536
00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:57,680
Speaker 5: depositions and find out what really happened at that secret meeting.

537
00:34:57,840 --> 00:34:58,719
Speaker 1: They're doing that.

538
00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:05,000
Speaker 5: They're trying to get this law in Pennsylvania. They're trying

539
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:07,000
Speaker 5: to find a hole in that law so that they

540
00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:11,799
Speaker 5: can change the suicide ruling or vacate it. And they

541
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:15,359
Speaker 5: are putting all the evidence that they've amassed out there

542
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:18,200
Speaker 5: in the court of public opinion, and they are opening

543
00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:21,600
Speaker 5: eyes again and again, and the more that people hear

544
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:23,680
Speaker 5: about this case, the more it sticks.

545
00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:27,120
Speaker 8: Forensic pathologist doctor Wayne k Ross is commissioned by the

546
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:30,600
Speaker 8: Greenbergs to review the case. Doctor Ross says there's evidence

547
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:33,440
Speaker 8: of strangulation. Ross says there's a mark over the front

548
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:35,400
Speaker 8: of the neck and in the strap muscles over the

549
00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:38,000
Speaker 8: right side of the neck, claiming these patterns are compatible

550
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:41,240
Speaker 8: with a manual strangulation. Ross also points out the number

551
00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:44,160
Speaker 8: of bruises over different parts of Greenberg's body are consistent

552
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:46,920
Speaker 8: with the repeated beatings. He writes, it is my opinion

553
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:50,200
Speaker 8: that the investigating authorities should pursue this case as a homicide.

554
00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:52,560
Speaker 8: It is further my opinion, to a reasonable degree of

555
00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:55,680
Speaker 8: medical certainty, that the manner of death is a homicide.

556
00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:59,160
Speaker 8: The scene findings were indicative of a homicide to Josh.

557
00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:05,680
Speaker 1: And Sandy green who We've spent years fighting this completely

558
00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:12,680
Speaker 1: erroneous ruling of suicide. I don't understand why everyone within

559
00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:18,719
Speaker 1: that government has teamed up to cover up the sloppy investigation.

560
00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:22,719
Speaker 1: There are forces that I do not understand, but I

561
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:27,400
Speaker 1: can tell you this was not suicide to you, Sandy,

562
00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:31,520
Speaker 1: How do you find the strength to keep fighting?

563
00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:36,360
Speaker 3: It's part of my constitution. When you love your child

564
00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:39,480
Speaker 3: and you love your family, this is what you do.

565
00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:45,480
Speaker 3: We've made sacrifices, and we have our own feelings about

566
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:50,680
Speaker 3: the direction we want to go in. The more they

567
00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:58,120
Speaker 3: perpetuate the lies, and it's in the public forum, it's

568
00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:07,640
Speaker 3: in the universe Philadelphia. I cannot understand how the public

569
00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:12,840
Speaker 3: in Philadelphia tolerates this type of behavior. But the longer

570
00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:15,839
Speaker 3: it goes on, the more we find out, and the

571
00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:19,799
Speaker 3: more their lives get deeper and deeper. And I'm not

572
00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:26,360
Speaker 3: going away, and I don't know. I think they expected

573
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:31,759
Speaker 3: us to die by now, but unfortunately, where fortunately that's

574
00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:37,120
Speaker 3: not the case. We're stronger than ever and I'm not

575
00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:40,040
Speaker 3: going to rest until we have resolved.

576
00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:44,000
Speaker 1: You know, Josh Greenberg. Whenever I feel like I've done

577
00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:47,959
Speaker 1: something wrong. I feel hot all over. I think about

578
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:51,239
Speaker 1: it over and over and over and rehash it in

579
00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:54,160
Speaker 1: my mind. I don't know how they can live with

580
00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:58,759
Speaker 1: themselves knowing that this was ruled a homicide, and it

581
00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:03,160
Speaker 1: only after a secret meeting with an Ada Assistant district

582
00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:08,120
Speaker 1: attorney and law enforcement. The medical examiner says he was

583
00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:12,959
Speaker 1: pressured to rule it a suicide. I mean, I don't

584
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:16,000
Speaker 1: understand how they can live with this lie because.

585
00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:19,439
Speaker 4: They're not good people. There are people in this world

586
00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:22,440
Speaker 4: who are not good people, who are just bad, bad people.

587
00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:26,120
Speaker 4: I hope every time these people look at a girl

588
00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:29,160
Speaker 4: or a twenty seven year old woman, they see my daughter,

589
00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:34,279
Speaker 4: because that's what they're putting away. That's who they're chastising,

590
00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:37,040
Speaker 4: that's who they're torturing, and that's who they're not giving

591
00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:37,640
Speaker 4: justice to.

592
00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:44,120
Speaker 1: When you think of Ellen, Josh, what is your most

593
00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:45,560
Speaker 1: vivid memory?

594
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:48,040
Speaker 4: Ellen getting hit in the face by a soft ball

595
00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:51,280
Speaker 4: and me hopping over a fence to help her because

596
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:53,160
Speaker 4: nobody else there could do it. And I put ice

597
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:55,160
Speaker 4: on her and she wouldn't go to school and her

598
00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:57,839
Speaker 4: face swelled up and the only one she had there

599
00:38:57,960 --> 00:38:58,160
Speaker 4: was me.

600
00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:01,319
Speaker 1: You know, Josh, I just wish that right now you

601
00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:04,799
Speaker 1: could hop over a fence and fix everything like you

602
00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:05,680
Speaker 1: did then.

603
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:07,000
Speaker 4: I'm trying.

604
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:12,160
Speaker 1: You sure are sandy when you think of Ellen. When

605
00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:16,000
Speaker 1: you fall asleep at night and you think of Ellen,

606
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:19,520
Speaker 1: what is your most vivid memory.

607
00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:20,719
Speaker 3: I don't know.

608
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:21,400
Speaker 9: My head.

609
00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:23,960
Speaker 1: My head is no.

610
00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:29,080
Speaker 3: I'm kind of worn out. Like as long as I

611
00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:33,160
Speaker 3: still want to fight, which I am, it is very

612
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:38,600
Speaker 3: emotionally taxing, taxing to the point where I'm in physical

613
00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:43,719
Speaker 3: pain in my shoulders. I can't raise my arms up

614
00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:48,960
Speaker 3: comfortably because I have so much tension. Yet I put

615
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:51,120
Speaker 3: one foot in front of the other. I try to

616
00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:54,360
Speaker 3: get my rest, I try to take my supplements. I

617
00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:59,840
Speaker 3: try to live a wholesome life. And I feel that

618
00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:04,400
Speaker 3: justice will prevail. And there's a lot of people that

619
00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:06,000
Speaker 3: can rotten Hell.

620
00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:14,040
Speaker 1: I pray that we get justice. I pray, I've been praying,

621
00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:18,919
Speaker 1: I've been trying. I just pray that we can all

622
00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:25,880
Speaker 1: hold on and somehow the tide will turn for Ellen.

623
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:33,799
Speaker 1: There is a court hearing December eleven, and if you

624
00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:38,359
Speaker 1: can hear our voices, we ask you to lift up

625
00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:44,440
Speaker 1: your prayers, your good thoughts for Ellen Greenberg on this

626
00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:53,000
Speaker 1: hearing December eleven. We wait and pray as justice unfolds.

627
00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:58,080
Speaker 1: Thank you to Josh and Sandy for joining us and

628
00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:01,440
Speaker 1: all of our guests, especially to you for being with

629
00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:09,520
Speaker 1: us and keeping Ellen's cause alive. Nancy Grace signing off,

630
00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:11,840
Speaker 1: goodbye friend,