1 00:00:08,560 --> 00:00:20,840 Speaker 1: Bodybacks with Joseph Scott Morgan as a death investigator. There 2 00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:25,479 Speaker 1: are no other deaths that impact you more than the 3 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:30,080 Speaker 1: death of a child. You can't get past it. Some 4 00:00:30,120 --> 00:00:32,839 Speaker 1: people would say that it's almost a trite saying, but 5 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:36,920 Speaker 1: I don't know that there are any truer words. I'm 6 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:40,320 Speaker 1: still haunted by cases from my career involving the deaths 7 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:45,360 Speaker 1: of little ones. The deaths of Tyley and j J 8 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:51,839 Speaker 1: have haunted us now for months as we continue to 9 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:58,160 Speaker 1: look into this investigation of Laurie Valoe and Chad day Bell. 10 00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:04,080 Speaker 1: But something has come a light recently relative to DNA testing, 11 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:08,840 Speaker 1: and today we're going to explore that. I'm Joseph Scott 12 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:17,200 Speaker 1: Morgan and this is body bags. I keep going around 13 00:01:17,319 --> 00:01:21,759 Speaker 1: and around and around with this case, and the more 14 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:26,880 Speaker 1: doors that are opened, the more confused I am relative 15 00:01:26,959 --> 00:01:31,400 Speaker 1: to what we have as far as causal factors of death, 16 00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:34,520 Speaker 1: what we have as far as tie backs, relative to 17 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:38,600 Speaker 1: specific types of evidence that are out there, and I 18 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:41,319 Speaker 1: gotta tell you, I'm confused at this point in time. 19 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:46,399 Speaker 1: Joining me today is Jackie Howard, executive producer of Crime 20 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:49,360 Speaker 1: Stories with Nancy Grace. Jackie, we've been on this journey 21 00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:52,640 Speaker 1: together for a while. Are you as frustrated as I am? 22 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:55,160 Speaker 1: I am Joe? And to be able to understand what's 23 00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 1: going on with this case right now, we need to 24 00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:00,600 Speaker 1: back up and look at the history. Loriello has been 25 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 1: married several times and that's very Germaine to this case. 26 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:07,240 Speaker 1: At the moment, Laurie day Bell divorced her first husband, 27 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:12,279 Speaker 1: then married Joe Ryan, that is Tylie's dad. They divorced 28 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:17,480 Speaker 1: and Joe Ryan died reportedly of natural causes. Next, Laurie 29 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:24,320 Speaker 1: marries Charles Valo. Laurie and Charles adopts j J. J 30 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:29,600 Speaker 1: J is the biological son of Charles's nephew. Charles and 31 00:02:29,919 --> 00:02:34,400 Speaker 1: Laurie get a divorce, but have a contentious custody agreement. 32 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:37,680 Speaker 1: He goes to the home to see j J and 33 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:41,880 Speaker 1: at that point he is shot by Laurie's brother Alex. 34 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:45,440 Speaker 1: He claimed it was in self defense. Next in line 35 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:47,959 Speaker 1: is Chad day Bell, but at the time that Laurie 36 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:51,120 Speaker 1: meets Chad day Bill, Chad day Bell is married to 37 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:56,320 Speaker 1: Tammy day Bill. Tammy day Belle dies in her sleep, 38 00:02:57,480 --> 00:03:01,840 Speaker 1: no autopsy is done, and Chat and Loriie get married 39 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:05,799 Speaker 1: on the beach in Hawaii just two weeks later. I'm 40 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:08,120 Speaker 1: gonna let you take this over Nancial and explain to 41 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:13,120 Speaker 1: us the intricacies of Tammy Day Bell's death. There was 42 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:19,920 Speaker 1: no autopsy, and ultimately Tammy Day Bell's body was exhumed 43 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:24,760 Speaker 1: as questions arose whether or not her death was truly 44 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:29,800 Speaker 1: of natural causes. You know, the beauty of what we 45 00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:32,920 Speaker 1: have here, relative there is any kind of beauty, I 46 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:37,440 Speaker 1: think is the simplicity of science, as confusing as people 47 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 1: can make things in their own life, the messiness of it. 48 00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 1: When we're looking at death investigation, we always turned to 49 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:48,400 Speaker 1: the science and we try to get an understanding of 50 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:51,920 Speaker 1: the world that we inhabit. Certainly Tammy Day Bell, we 51 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:54,640 Speaker 1: think about her death. We think about j J and 52 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 1: entirely and with Tammy. Tammy was you know, and we've 53 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:01,280 Speaker 1: done a full episode of The Bags on Tammy, and 54 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:07,560 Speaker 1: that that case is always struck me as so bizarre 55 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:11,520 Speaker 1: and and not necessarily just simply her death, but what 56 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:15,280 Speaker 1: took place afterwards, because you have a very young woman 57 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:19,760 Speaker 1: who was in robust health that had no and I 58 00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:23,880 Speaker 1: mean no signs of any kind of disease or pathology 59 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:25,760 Speaker 1: or anything going on. As a matter of fact, it's 60 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:29,040 Speaker 1: been widely reported that she was trained to participating in 61 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:31,960 Speaker 1: races and all these sorts of things that is running, 62 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:35,719 Speaker 1: and she had no previous complaints. But yet she's found 63 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:39,640 Speaker 1: dead by her husband, Chad day Bell, that faithful morning 64 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:43,800 Speaker 1: and seemingly it the wheels began to fall off. From 65 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:49,280 Speaker 1: an investigative standpoint, you've got a less than thorough investigation 66 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:52,560 Speaker 1: into her death. At that moment in time. She is 67 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:57,400 Speaker 1: not autopsied, which and somebody given her age range should 68 00:04:57,400 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 1: have been autopsied, particularly with no previous medical history, because 69 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:04,800 Speaker 1: you know, the corner looks at a case like this 70 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:08,080 Speaker 1: and if you don't have an attending physician that's treating 71 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:12,080 Speaker 1: you for some kind of disease, then it falls to 72 00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:14,440 Speaker 1: the corner to sign the death certificate. Well, what are 73 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:17,280 Speaker 1: you gonna list does cause of death in a situation 74 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:21,239 Speaker 1: like this, And in conclusion, you know her her death 75 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:25,240 Speaker 1: was listed as a very non specific natural type of 76 00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:28,840 Speaker 1: death and it's anything but that she was essentially embalmed 77 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:33,200 Speaker 1: and taken across state lines from Idaho to Utah and 78 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:35,599 Speaker 1: where she was buried. Her body was in the ground 79 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:39,520 Speaker 1: for months before somebody came to their senses and said, 80 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 1: you know what, we've got all these other deaths that 81 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:43,719 Speaker 1: are occurring. We've got this young woman who is in 82 00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:46,960 Speaker 1: pretty good health. We probably need to exhume her and 83 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:49,200 Speaker 1: take her body out and take a look at what's happened. 84 00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:51,520 Speaker 1: Let me tump in here, Joe forty something. Your old 85 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:55,080 Speaker 1: women do not usually die in their sleep. When it 86 00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:58,200 Speaker 1: does happen, obviously, the first thing you think of is 87 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:02,159 Speaker 1: some kind of heart condition, heart attack, or uh something 88 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:05,680 Speaker 1: along those lines. But if that had been the case here, 89 00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:10,039 Speaker 1: that would have been listed on the death certificate as 90 00:06:10,080 --> 00:06:14,599 Speaker 1: the cause of death as opposed to just natural causes. Correct. Yeah, yeah, 91 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:16,440 Speaker 1: it would have been. And you know, when we think 92 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:19,200 Speaker 1: about heart attack, the only way to make that diagnosis 93 00:06:19,279 --> 00:06:22,240 Speaker 1: is to do an autopsy. Now, you can suppose a 94 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:24,920 Speaker 1: few things. I guess if somebody has, you know, a 95 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:28,320 Speaker 1: diagnosis of heart disease, they have a diagnosis of hypertension 96 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:30,600 Speaker 1: or any other kind of contributing factors. But we didn't 97 00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:33,440 Speaker 1: have that. So in order to make a diagnosis of 98 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 1: a heart attack, which actually is term that is used 99 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:40,400 Speaker 1: in the general public from a medical perspective, it's called 100 00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:44,359 Speaker 1: a MIoD cardial infarction, which means that part of the 101 00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:49,920 Speaker 1: micardium of the heart has died due to insufficient blood 102 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:52,600 Speaker 1: supply oxygenated blood supply. So you have that little bit 103 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:56,760 Speaker 1: of heart muscle, the mild cardium that actually dies and 104 00:06:56,800 --> 00:07:00,400 Speaker 1: the heart is incapable of keeping up and fighting the 105 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:04,039 Speaker 1: body with the supply of blood, and so the individual dies. 106 00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:07,400 Speaker 1: But you have to visualize that in order to make 107 00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:10,720 Speaker 1: that diagnosis postmortem. This is not like you've got somebody 108 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:14,120 Speaker 1: in the hospital where you're doing diagnostic testing and all 109 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:16,960 Speaker 1: those kinds of things that go on that didn't happen here. 110 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:19,040 Speaker 1: You've got somebody that you're saying that this is a 111 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:21,560 Speaker 1: cardiac related death. They're found dead in bed, they have 112 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:25,960 Speaker 1: no previous history, and you're just going to kind of 113 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:29,680 Speaker 1: go off into the ether and make this determination. Well, 114 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:34,400 Speaker 1: that's a problem, particularly when you have in your periphery 115 00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 1: you have all of these other people that have died. 116 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:40,880 Speaker 1: That is a horrible set of circumstances to put the 117 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:43,920 Speaker 1: authorities in. And that decision was made at that critical 118 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:47,640 Speaker 1: moment time where they just decided to release the body 119 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:51,600 Speaker 1: and have her buried. And the reason it poses a 120 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:56,200 Speaker 1: problem is not only have you not examined internally to 121 00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:57,960 Speaker 1: see what was going on with a heart or with 122 00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:00,160 Speaker 1: a brain, you know, because it could have been a strow. Okay, 123 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:03,360 Speaker 1: I guess you could make that that argument. But also 124 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:07,200 Speaker 1: once the embalming process takes place, then all the blood 125 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:10,000 Speaker 1: is gone, you know, that's the purpose of embolming. You know, 126 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:12,800 Speaker 1: you remove the blood to replace it with embalming fluid. 127 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:15,600 Speaker 1: At that point in time, can't do toxicology because you 128 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:18,200 Speaker 1: can't see what's going on at a chemical level in 129 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:20,800 Speaker 1: the body. All of that's gone. It's literally flushed down 130 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 1: the drain in the mortuary. It's gone. You can't do it. 131 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:27,560 Speaker 1: You're hoping, you know, once you have a body that 132 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:31,760 Speaker 1: has been disinterred where it has been exhumed, which requires 133 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:33,960 Speaker 1: an order of a judge, which is no small feed, 134 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:37,920 Speaker 1: you're hoping that something physically will still present itself, like 135 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:40,120 Speaker 1: you know, the things we talked about, like if you're 136 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:44,160 Speaker 1: looking at an asphyxical death where perhaps there are little 137 00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:47,360 Speaker 1: pin prick hemorrhages in the eyes, you know, for instance, 138 00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:50,760 Speaker 1: particularly to see that there's evidence that there was pressure 139 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 1: applied to the airway and that maybe the reason the 140 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 1: individual diet, or if there's some kind of physical manifestation 141 00:08:57,200 --> 00:08:59,360 Speaker 1: in the neck, you know, hemorrhage in the in the 142 00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:02,600 Speaker 1: muscle's is the embalming process is not going to wipe 143 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:05,120 Speaker 1: away that hemorrhage because it's outside of the vessels at 144 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 1: that point in time. It's kind of stained the muscle 145 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:12,280 Speaker 1: tissue or the interstitial tissue, and so you're hoping that 146 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:15,160 Speaker 1: you can find that or fractured hioid, you know, we 147 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:19,080 Speaker 1: always talked about hioid or the cartilaginous bodies in the neck. 148 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:22,000 Speaker 1: You're hoping that there's some evidence there that you can appreciate, 149 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:24,840 Speaker 1: but other than that, you're you're not gonna find anythings. 150 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:27,560 Speaker 1: So they've really put themselves between a rock and a 151 00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:29,679 Speaker 1: hard place when it comes to Tammy Daville's death. The 152 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:33,360 Speaker 1: final determination in Tammy day Bell's death has not been 153 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 1: publicly announced yet. We do know that the autopsy is complete, 154 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:42,000 Speaker 1: but again, officials have not released the actual cause of death. However, 155 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:46,080 Speaker 1: the day Bell children did tell CBS News forty eight 156 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:51,199 Speaker 1: hours that they were told that their mother died of asphyxiation. 157 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:55,560 Speaker 1: So let's move forward now, Joe to j j Entirely, 158 00:09:56,240 --> 00:10:01,800 Speaker 1: their bodies were found on Chad day Bell's property. How 159 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:07,120 Speaker 1: did police go about finding the bodies? Was it cadaver dogs, 160 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:13,080 Speaker 1: was it ground penetrating, ground penetrating sonar or radar? Or 161 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:15,840 Speaker 1: was it just good old fashioned police work? How did 162 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:18,320 Speaker 1: they find the bodies? Joe? First off, this is a 163 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:21,160 Speaker 1: missing person's case, if you know, if we can reflect back, 164 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 1: everybody wants to know where j J. Valo and Tyley 165 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:27,680 Speaker 1: Ryan and I remember covering this when it first dropped, 166 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:30,000 Speaker 1: and you know, everybody was anxious to find these kids 167 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:33,560 Speaker 1: that just seemingly vanished off of the face of the planet. 168 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:39,720 Speaker 1: Of course, Tyley went missing before JJ did, and folks 169 00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:43,400 Speaker 1: were looking for her, and then of course JJ went 170 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:48,200 Speaker 1: missing as well. After you've exhausted everything, as investigators where 171 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:52,679 Speaker 1: you're doing a missing persons investigation, you have to go 172 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:55,520 Speaker 1: back to that point in time where were they last 173 00:10:55,559 --> 00:10:58,240 Speaker 1: seen and you have to think, you know, what are 174 00:10:58,280 --> 00:11:01,040 Speaker 1: the odds that these two children and that are part 175 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:06,079 Speaker 1: of the same family would just kind of vaporize and 176 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:09,319 Speaker 1: disappear into thin air and there not be a connection. 177 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:12,520 Speaker 1: So what draws you back to where they were connected? 178 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:16,480 Speaker 1: And that's what led authorities to Chad day Bell's property. 179 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:19,400 Speaker 1: And it's you know, it's in a rural area in Idaho. 180 00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:22,559 Speaker 1: You could refer to it as a that's kind of 181 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:26,360 Speaker 1: an aggra based environment that's there and a lot of property. 182 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:29,439 Speaker 1: There's outbuildings adjacent to the main house, and you kind 183 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:31,720 Speaker 1: of have pasture land out there. There's kind of a 184 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:35,400 Speaker 1: communal firing where, you know, you can see aerial shots. 185 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:37,800 Speaker 1: You can actually see logs that people have pulled up 186 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:40,120 Speaker 1: around the firing. You can imagine you're hanging out with 187 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:42,559 Speaker 1: friends and whatnot. Maybe somebody's got a guitar out and 188 00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 1: you're maybe roasting marshmallows over the fire up in that 189 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:50,000 Speaker 1: chili environment in Idaho and just enjoying yourself. It almost 190 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:52,360 Speaker 1: has a bucolic feel to it when you begin to 191 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:55,000 Speaker 1: see it, and then the horror is kind of revealed. 192 00:11:55,480 --> 00:11:57,439 Speaker 1: You know, I can remember it clear as day. They 193 00:11:57,480 --> 00:12:02,320 Speaker 1: had found this disturbed, upturned soil which looked odd on 194 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:05,880 Speaker 1: the property where you've got what appears to be side 195 00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:08,880 Speaker 1: that has been laid down over a particular area, and 196 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:14,080 Speaker 1: it's not like widespread, it's in one focal area. And 197 00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:17,320 Speaker 1: they go to remove these layers upside, dig down through 198 00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:21,240 Speaker 1: the strata there, you know, and soil, and they come 199 00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:24,760 Speaker 1: across these odd stones that are beneath the beneath the 200 00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:28,320 Speaker 1: surface there, and they began to pull those away. They're 201 00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:32,560 Speaker 1: described as these flat stones, and they're lying there. Beneath 202 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:36,920 Speaker 1: these stones is the body of J. J. He's wrapped up. 203 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:40,679 Speaker 1: He's wrapped up in that environment. You know, some thought 204 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:42,840 Speaker 1: had gone into this, because you know, why would you 205 00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:46,640 Speaker 1: put stones over the body? Well, whoever did this understood 206 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:53,840 Speaker 1: that when soil is disturbed, you can never get soiled 207 00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:56,840 Speaker 1: back to the way it once appeared once you've put 208 00:12:57,000 --> 00:13:01,440 Speaker 1: shovel to it. So I think at least the reason 209 00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:05,240 Speaker 1: the stones were placed there was so that there would 210 00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:07,800 Speaker 1: be some underpinning of the soil and it wouldn't have 211 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:10,360 Speaker 1: such a depressed appearance to it. When you begin to 212 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:14,079 Speaker 1: look at the topography of the soil and that overlying 213 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 1: saw that had been intentionally placed there, it gives you 214 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:20,920 Speaker 1: the impression that everything is as it should be, and 215 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:22,920 Speaker 1: of course that wasn't the case because it saw it. 216 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:24,760 Speaker 1: I think is it did give away. You know, you've 217 00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:27,679 Speaker 1: got that one plot that's there that's you know, happens 218 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:30,360 Speaker 1: to have a different appearance than everything else around you. 219 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:33,440 Speaker 1: You can never draw it back to its natural setting. 220 00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:38,199 Speaker 1: Prior to disturbing soil. And then they began to examine 221 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:41,800 Speaker 1: this firing area over there, which also is adjacent and 222 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:44,840 Speaker 1: this is kind of ghastly adjacent to where the family 223 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:47,320 Speaker 1: would bury pets, and some people have referred to it 224 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:50,320 Speaker 1: as a pet cemetery. I don't know if that's accurate 225 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 1: or not, but you know, when they began to dig 226 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:56,160 Speaker 1: through the firing and and dig through the areas immediately 227 00:13:56,160 --> 00:14:01,000 Speaker 1: adjacent there, they began to find fragmented bone and even 228 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:03,440 Speaker 1: some soft tissue eventually, and of course that turned out 229 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:07,720 Speaker 1: to be Kylie's remains. She had had been rendered down, 230 00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:11,440 Speaker 1: an attempt have been made to render her remains down 231 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:15,400 Speaker 1: in this fire, and it has come out to you know, 232 00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:18,920 Speaker 1: at this point that not only was there an attempt 233 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:24,760 Speaker 1: to consume her remains with fire, but prior to that, 234 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:27,240 Speaker 1: there's an indication from the authorities they've alluded to it 235 00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:32,120 Speaker 1: that she was dismembered. And so you've got these these 236 00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:34,600 Speaker 1: bone fragments that are there, and they're not just merely 237 00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:38,040 Speaker 1: bone fragments. When you're going through an area like this, 238 00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:40,680 Speaker 1: you have to understand that if you're talking about dismemberment, 239 00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:42,480 Speaker 1: and I have to think that this is the case, 240 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:46,440 Speaker 1: because they've mentioned this several times. They have evidence that 241 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:50,560 Speaker 1: the bones are not just merely fragmented as a result 242 00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:53,240 Speaker 1: of what referred to as like heat fractures where bone 243 00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:56,440 Speaker 1: comes apart because the fire is so hot. They have 244 00:14:56,600 --> 00:14:59,400 Speaker 1: specific margins that they're looking at that give them an 245 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:01,880 Speaker 1: indication a tool was applied to the bob, to the 246 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:05,840 Speaker 1: skelptal remains, and these are gonna be neater cuts, and 247 00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:08,840 Speaker 1: that gives you an idea of what had taken place 248 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:13,640 Speaker 1: prior to the body being burned. There's preparation that's gone 249 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:19,119 Speaker 1: on with both of these remains. Tyley's is certainly very ghastly. 250 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:22,600 Speaker 1: But when you look at JJ going back to his 251 00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:26,440 Speaker 1: spot where they had laid him down in the ground, 252 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:30,560 Speaker 1: there was this kind of weird memorialization because one of 253 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:33,080 Speaker 1: the things I didn't mention was that, yeah, he had 254 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:36,880 Speaker 1: been wrapped in plastic. Certainly his head was and you know, 255 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 1: I remember the detective talking about in great detail, and 256 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:42,280 Speaker 1: because he was very disturbed when he was given he 257 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:45,600 Speaker 1: was given testimony and preliminary hearing about how much tape 258 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:47,800 Speaker 1: there was. There was a tremendous amount of duct tape 259 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:50,480 Speaker 1: that was involved in the in the wrapping of his body, 260 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:53,720 Speaker 1: but they also had taken some kind of blanket and 261 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:56,400 Speaker 1: laid over his body before they put the stones, And 262 00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:59,520 Speaker 1: that gives you an idea. I think, at least that's 263 00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:02,760 Speaker 1: what we've referred to as memorialization of the dead. His 264 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:07,360 Speaker 1: body was treated differently than Tyle's. Tyle's was there was 265 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:11,360 Speaker 1: an attempt to completely eradicate any evidence of her existence, 266 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:14,040 Speaker 1: but with j J there was an attempt to, I 267 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:16,280 Speaker 1: don't know, honor him in some way, which is kind 268 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:19,440 Speaker 1: of a weird term, I know, but when you compare 269 00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:22,880 Speaker 1: it to the way his body was treated versus Tyl's, 270 00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:44,920 Speaker 1: it's quite striking. There's many times when you're an investigator 271 00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:47,960 Speaker 1: and you're standing out at a scene, particularly where you've 272 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:51,240 Speaker 1: got more than one body, you're very confused. For a moment. 273 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:54,040 Speaker 1: You're trying to decide what should I do next? Am 274 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:56,600 Speaker 1: I doing everything that I need to do in order 275 00:16:56,640 --> 00:17:00,680 Speaker 1: to preserve and make note of all of the little 276 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:02,920 Speaker 1: details that are at the scene. And you know, there 277 00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:05,680 Speaker 1: are many times I've gone home after working cases where 278 00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:07,600 Speaker 1: I scratched my head and said, oh, gee, did I 279 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:10,080 Speaker 1: do this? Did I do that? And in this particular 280 00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:13,879 Speaker 1: case relative to j J Valo and Tylie Ryan. I 281 00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:17,639 Speaker 1: can only imagine those investigators felt the same way because 282 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:21,880 Speaker 1: it is just Jackie, just an overwhelming amount of evidence 283 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:25,040 Speaker 1: that they had collect out there. Let's look at the 284 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:30,040 Speaker 1: positioning of the bodies. JJ's body and the remains of 285 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:33,439 Speaker 1: Tylie Ryan were not close together. They were in the 286 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:37,240 Speaker 1: same general vicinity, but they were not laid side by side. 287 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:40,720 Speaker 1: The recovery of JJ's body would have have to have 288 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:46,320 Speaker 1: been much simpler, given that he was entombed in cased 289 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:53,640 Speaker 1: in plastic with duct tape wrapped almost mummy style around 290 00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:59,880 Speaker 1: his body. So once the officers the investigators opened the 291 00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 1: plastic and realize that there was a body inside and 292 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:07,919 Speaker 1: they could see the red Pj's that it was reported 293 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:12,240 Speaker 1: that JJ went missing in, how do they proceed, Joe. 294 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:16,920 Speaker 1: Do they just move and lift his body into a 295 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:20,719 Speaker 1: body bag and then search the soil and ground underneath. 296 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:24,200 Speaker 1: How would they do that? Yeah? Yeah, And essentially that's 297 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:26,640 Speaker 1: what you would have to do with both of these cases. 298 00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:29,720 Speaker 1: It's truly an excavation, if you will, and I mean 299 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:33,199 Speaker 1: that in the purest anthropological term. You're having to make 300 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:37,520 Speaker 1: sure that you account for everything that you possibly can. 301 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:40,080 Speaker 1: Talking about JJ, you never know what's going to be 302 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:43,919 Speaker 1: down in in a dug grave, and it can be 303 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 1: the slightest thing of work. Cases where people would flick 304 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:50,160 Speaker 1: cigarette butts down into holes before they placed the body 305 00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:52,960 Speaker 1: on top of the cigarette butt. You can find evidence 306 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:57,520 Speaker 1: of shovel strikes on on stone that are down there. 307 00:18:57,760 --> 00:19:00,359 Speaker 1: Maybe there's a route that has been cut through, and 308 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:04,400 Speaker 1: again that's that has evidentially value. And there are even 309 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:09,879 Speaker 1: cases where individuals have left behind items that may have 310 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:12,119 Speaker 1: fallen out of their pocket if you can imagine that 311 00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:14,880 Speaker 1: while digging a hole. So you have to account for 312 00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:18,119 Speaker 1: all of that. It's not just a matter of having 313 00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:23,720 Speaker 1: lifted j J's remains out of this dug grave and 314 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:25,960 Speaker 1: then place the own body bag and taking them away. 315 00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:28,440 Speaker 1: There's a certain amount of care that has to go 316 00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:32,000 Speaker 1: into this. And you know, one of the things that 317 00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:34,679 Speaker 1: you have to think about with particularly with you know, 318 00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:37,520 Speaker 1: we talked about this tape and it's they've identified it 319 00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:42,359 Speaker 1: as duct tape, is that duct tape and the surfaces 320 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:46,320 Speaker 1: of these bags can in fact contain evidence that will 321 00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:50,080 Speaker 1: be linkage back to individuals that are responsible for this. Again, 322 00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:52,679 Speaker 1: I reflect back through the father of modern forensics in 323 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:55,359 Speaker 1: my opinions at model A card and you know this 324 00:19:55,480 --> 00:20:00,159 Speaker 1: idea of Lacarte's principle, every contact leaves a trace anythinging 325 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:03,399 Speaker 1: that you do where you're touching a surface, whether it 326 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:06,639 Speaker 1: be a plastic bag, and certainly with tape, you have 327 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:10,760 Speaker 1: the potential of leaving behind trace evidence that's caught up, say, 328 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:13,520 Speaker 1: for instance, on the adhesive surfaces of the tape, and 329 00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:17,600 Speaker 1: on the surfaces of the bags, and particularly if you've 330 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:20,760 Speaker 1: got multiple layers of bags, which kind of sounds like 331 00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:22,680 Speaker 1: is one of the things that we're dealing with here. 332 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:27,919 Speaker 1: If you've encased a body bag within bag on that 333 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:31,960 Speaker 1: inner surface, the surfaces exposed to the dirt and to 334 00:20:32,119 --> 00:20:35,800 Speaker 1: moisture direct exposure, you might not have a chance at 335 00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:38,280 Speaker 1: getting trace evidence off of that, but that inner area, 336 00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:41,119 Speaker 1: that inner layer, you could even find latent prints on 337 00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:45,280 Speaker 1: the surface of the plastic itself. Remember plastic is non porous, 338 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:48,200 Speaker 1: so it's not as smooth as glass, but you can 339 00:20:48,359 --> 00:20:50,959 Speaker 1: leave behind print there, So you have to be very 340 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:54,000 Speaker 1: very careful and treated very carefully. One of the things 341 00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:57,359 Speaker 1: that was really striking to me is, and I found 342 00:20:57,400 --> 00:21:01,280 Speaker 1: this a little bit truffling, is that the detective that 343 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:03,840 Speaker 1: was watching all this take place. In his testimony, he 344 00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:07,399 Speaker 1: actually stated that one of the investigators that scene had 345 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:10,000 Speaker 1: taken out a knife and had cut the bag open 346 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:15,800 Speaker 1: at the scene, revealing JJ's face. You could see brown 347 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:18,639 Speaker 1: hair and these sorts of things. That's something that I 348 00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:21,320 Speaker 1: would not advise anybody to do at the scene. There 349 00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:24,400 Speaker 1: will be plenty of time to get identification done once 350 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:26,520 Speaker 1: you get it back into a controlled environment. But the 351 00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:29,600 Speaker 1: problem with cutting a bag open is that once that 352 00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:31,760 Speaker 1: bag is open, first off, you don't know what you're 353 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:35,200 Speaker 1: cutting across beneath that surface. Remember if you're talking about 354 00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:39,280 Speaker 1: multiple layers, you can disrupt evidence beneath there. And also 355 00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:43,520 Speaker 1: just to open the bag, that means you're pulling it apart, 356 00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:46,560 Speaker 1: and then you're in a dirty environment and anything can 357 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:49,919 Speaker 1: fault into that bag, your own hair, for instance, if 358 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:53,000 Speaker 1: you're not prepared physically where you're wearing a tiebek suit 359 00:21:53,119 --> 00:21:55,440 Speaker 1: for instance, in gloves and all those sorts of things, 360 00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:58,119 Speaker 1: where you can transfer your own evidence that you're bringing 361 00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:00,520 Speaker 1: into the scene, or evidence that you were there as 362 00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:03,679 Speaker 1: an investigator. It's not a controlled environment. You want to 363 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:07,080 Speaker 1: try to get that body back in pristine state. In 364 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:09,040 Speaker 1: this case, they had to transport these bodies all the 365 00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:12,160 Speaker 1: way back to Boise because that's where the bodies are 366 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:16,679 Speaker 1: are examined, and you would want to essentially do an 367 00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:20,440 Speaker 1: entire x ray of the body before you ever remove 368 00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:25,040 Speaker 1: anything from that body or disrupt the packaging in any way, 369 00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:28,160 Speaker 1: because that can a case can rise and fall dependent 370 00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:32,160 Speaker 1: upon that. Just because you have a need to see 371 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:37,320 Speaker 1: the face, that doesn't trump the importance of the value 372 00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:40,000 Speaker 1: of the of the evidence that you might be disrupting. 373 00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:46,920 Speaker 1: The recovery of Tiley's body was an entirely different matter because, 374 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:50,240 Speaker 1: as you said, Tiley's body had been dismembered and she 375 00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:53,560 Speaker 1: had been burned. In fact, there was evidence of a 376 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:59,080 Speaker 1: green plastic bucket which was used to burn Tiley's head, 377 00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:04,160 Speaker 1: so her body Kylie's body was placed into the fire 378 00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:09,040 Speaker 1: and stirred. For lack of a better way to put it, 379 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:14,280 Speaker 1: that's so disrespectful to say it that way, But in reality, 380 00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:17,320 Speaker 1: that's what happened. That's the reality what you're doing with here. 381 00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:19,879 Speaker 1: You know, you can't church this up and make it 382 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:23,040 Speaker 1: pleasant and nice for everybody. You can't do that. That's 383 00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:27,000 Speaker 1: the reality of whoever did this. This is this is 384 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:30,920 Speaker 1: dastardly dirty work that has taken place here. And so 385 00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:34,320 Speaker 1: as an investigator, when you're taking a look at at 386 00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:36,679 Speaker 1: the scene and you're trying to process it again, I 387 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:39,719 Speaker 1: go back to this idea that this is from an 388 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:44,680 Speaker 1: anthropological standpoint, you have to apply you know, archaeological methodologies 389 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:46,720 Speaker 1: here and doing the recovery. And I think in one 390 00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:49,440 Speaker 1: of the scenes, I actually saw sifting stations that they 391 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:52,439 Speaker 1: had set up, which are screening stations, and people are 392 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:53,960 Speaker 1: kind of familiar with this, you know, where you have 393 00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:57,080 Speaker 1: the big kind of box that has the screening where 394 00:23:57,080 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 1: you shake down and you can look through all the 395 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:02,920 Speaker 1: remnants and are in there, because if you're talking about cremines, 396 00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:06,320 Speaker 1: which is what burned remains are referred to as things. 397 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:10,159 Speaker 1: For the average investigator that are out there at the scene, 398 00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:13,119 Speaker 1: you might see something that to you just looks like 399 00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:17,840 Speaker 1: a dirt clod. But for the experienced anthropologists that's out 400 00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:20,199 Speaker 1: helping you with the recovery, they can certainly see the 401 00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:22,960 Speaker 1: difference between and just I'm talking about just eyeball and it. 402 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:25,199 Speaker 1: That's how good these people are. They can tell the 403 00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:29,560 Speaker 1: difference between a dirt clode, for instance, and a bit 404 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:33,040 Speaker 1: of human bone it's amazing when you're around folks in 405 00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:35,600 Speaker 1: this field, and this is what they spend years and 406 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:38,439 Speaker 1: years learning to do and working their way through. So 407 00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:41,920 Speaker 1: you look at the circumstances and and you see what 408 00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:44,480 Speaker 1: has been left behind. You have to take care. And 409 00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:47,280 Speaker 1: in several of the photographs you can see these aerial 410 00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:50,080 Speaker 1: shots that they have. They've dug down several layers, but 411 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:52,880 Speaker 1: not real, real deep. This is not a deep deep burial. 412 00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:55,240 Speaker 1: You know, where you you think about a grave, you 413 00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:57,760 Speaker 1: know the standard is six feet deep. It's not like that. 414 00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:00,359 Speaker 1: But you can tell in some of the progressions of 415 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:02,959 Speaker 1: the photos because they're taking over time. You see the 416 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:06,080 Speaker 1: investigators are standing there and it's getting deeper and deeper, 417 00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:09,479 Speaker 1: but not not to the level of like you know, 418 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:12,720 Speaker 1: up to their mid thigh or anything. It wasn't that deep. 419 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:15,400 Speaker 1: But you have to take down every layer and this 420 00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:18,800 Speaker 1: is this is the strata stratified, and you have to 421 00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:21,399 Speaker 1: look at each bit of strata and collect everything that 422 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:25,240 Speaker 1: you can to this this issue with the bucket, which 423 00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:28,160 Speaker 1: is chilling to say the very least, that might be 424 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:31,080 Speaker 1: one of the few items that you have could potentially 425 00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:33,959 Speaker 1: give you an indication of what type of accelerant was 426 00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:36,639 Speaker 1: used if they were applying some type of gas or 427 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:40,240 Speaker 1: something like a fuel like this to initiate the fire, 428 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:45,040 Speaker 1: and that that bucket, as horrific as it is, might 429 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:50,320 Speaker 1: hold a key to tying back chemically to any kind 430 00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:53,600 Speaker 1: of accelerant that was applied to this area, because you know, 431 00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:58,920 Speaker 1: I don't know that they didn't recover any type of clothing. 432 00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:01,320 Speaker 1: I don't know if they did or not, because many 433 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:04,959 Speaker 1: times we rely on clothing looking for accelerance, and we 434 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:07,160 Speaker 1: can take those and have those tested and that sort 435 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:09,920 Speaker 1: of thing to see what type of fuel had been 436 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:12,600 Speaker 1: applied to that area. The bucket is going to be critical, though, 437 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:18,000 Speaker 1: And to your point, this attempt at rendering is absolutely 438 00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:22,159 Speaker 1: horrific because there's this issue of contact and melting and 439 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:23,879 Speaker 1: all these sorts of things that have kind of co 440 00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:27,919 Speaker 1: mingled with Tyley's remains. When this case is in court, 441 00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:30,800 Speaker 1: the jury is going to hear that, and it's gonna 442 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:34,760 Speaker 1: be absolutely horrific. I think it's gonna be something that 443 00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:37,600 Speaker 1: these people, certainly on this jury have never heard of before, 444 00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:41,160 Speaker 1: have never seen, have never even fought that somebody could 445 00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:43,560 Speaker 1: do this to another human being, And it's gonna be 446 00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:47,200 Speaker 1: quite striking. It's gonna be very, very powerful, But they 447 00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:49,920 Speaker 1: have to make sure that everything they've collected out that scene, 448 00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:52,520 Speaker 1: all that bit of fragmented bone that they've talked about 449 00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:55,359 Speaker 1: a lot, that they've collected it, because even the most 450 00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:58,840 Speaker 1: miniscule bit of bone that's out there, you have to 451 00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:03,280 Speaker 1: examine it into visually and it will have individual characteristics. 452 00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:09,720 Speaker 1: And this goes back to the thought about dismemberment. With dismemberment, 453 00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:13,240 Speaker 1: you have to understand that there will be tool marks. 454 00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:17,960 Speaker 1: And if you have tool marks, that means that someone 455 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:22,840 Speaker 1: picked up an instrument and used it to take apart 456 00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:26,200 Speaker 1: the spot, and that tool mark will be a specific 457 00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:29,639 Speaker 1: tie back to a type of tool, whether it's a saw, 458 00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:34,200 Speaker 1: a hatchet, an axe, whatever the case might be. If 459 00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:37,320 Speaker 1: that's the case, then you can begin to kind of 460 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:40,480 Speaker 1: understand what may have happened. If if it was a 461 00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:43,200 Speaker 1: crushing kind of blow that you might see with an ax, 462 00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:46,640 Speaker 1: or if it was a sawn, which you know, there's 463 00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:49,560 Speaker 1: any number of saws, and they're they're very distinctive their teeth. 464 00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:52,240 Speaker 1: You have hack saws that are gonna look completely different 465 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:55,600 Speaker 1: than say lumbert saws, are are limb saws. Those sorts 466 00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:58,560 Speaker 1: of things, and again those are specific tie backs that 467 00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:01,320 Speaker 1: are It's a concept we talked about forensics all the 468 00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:05,720 Speaker 1: time called individualization of evidence. And so they've taken their 469 00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:07,720 Speaker 1: time with us. This is one of the reasons it's 470 00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:11,320 Speaker 1: taken so long for this case to finally make it 471 00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:14,760 Speaker 1: to the point where we're right on the verge uh trial. 472 00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:18,880 Speaker 1: Perhaps everything that you said, Joe leads us to the 473 00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:25,560 Speaker 1: filing made by prosecutors asking for DNA testing on evidence 474 00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:30,120 Speaker 1: found at the recovery scene of the bodies. Finally there 475 00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:33,200 Speaker 1: may be an answer to who killed j j Highly. 476 00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:55,800 Speaker 1: There's an old saying that people talk about paralysis through analysis. 477 00:28:55,880 --> 00:29:00,480 Speaker 1: You know, you can overthink things many times, and when 478 00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:03,240 Speaker 1: you have bits of evidence that have to be analyzed, 479 00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:06,200 Speaker 1: have to be examined because you remember, we have to 480 00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:11,120 Speaker 1: keep in mind that every bit of evidence, forensic evidence 481 00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:14,160 Speaker 1: or potential evidence that's at a scene our little breadcrumbs 482 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:17,880 Speaker 1: that lead back to what actually happened. Remember, we weren't 483 00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:21,840 Speaker 1: there to witness these horrible events. The evidence is going 484 00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:24,960 Speaker 1: to actually point us in that particular direction to give 485 00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:29,680 Speaker 1: us an indication of what may have happened and more importantly, 486 00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:32,240 Speaker 1: who may have been involved, and I think that that's 487 00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:35,240 Speaker 1: what they're looking at here. The prosecution in the case 488 00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:40,520 Speaker 1: against Lorie Valo and Chad day Bill has requested that 489 00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:47,280 Speaker 1: a judge allow forensic DNA testing on evidence recovered from 490 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:50,280 Speaker 1: this scene. Nan Joe. With the way that we are 491 00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:53,280 Speaker 1: in society today with in c I, s C s 492 00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:59,200 Speaker 1: I and Criminal Minds, all of the forensic investigative shows 493 00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:03,040 Speaker 1: that are very popular these days, people have the idea 494 00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:06,240 Speaker 1: that the minute evidence has recovered, that it's automatically sent 495 00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:10,360 Speaker 1: to the lab and tested for everything possible. That's not 496 00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:15,440 Speaker 1: the case. In fact, prosecutors had not really requested anything 497 00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:19,920 Speaker 1: be tested before. Now why well, we have to go back. 498 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:24,000 Speaker 1: I think in there was a request and the defense 499 00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:26,840 Speaker 1: has has kind of fought that they thought that all 500 00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:30,280 Speaker 1: along the way because they knew they have known for 501 00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:35,080 Speaker 1: some time that the evidence that prosecution the state. Okay, 502 00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:38,120 Speaker 1: because this is people have a hard time. I want 503 00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:42,200 Speaker 1: to break this down very briefly. This is the state's evidence. 504 00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:45,920 Speaker 1: It's the state's evidence. It's not the defense is evidence. 505 00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:48,880 Speaker 1: This is the evidence that the state has gone out 506 00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:52,160 Speaker 1: visa the their crimsing unit and they have collected. This 507 00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:55,960 Speaker 1: is the evidence that has been collected at autopsy, at examination, 508 00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:58,840 Speaker 1: all these items have been collected by the States. So 509 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:04,040 Speaker 1: when the defense sees this, they know that there's gonna 510 00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:06,200 Speaker 1: be one shot at this because what they have been 511 00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:11,120 Speaker 1: told is that the state intends to conduct what is 512 00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:17,320 Speaker 1: referred to as a consumptive test, and consumptive means that 513 00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:20,160 Speaker 1: these little points of evidence that they're finding, you're gonna 514 00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:22,600 Speaker 1: get one shot at it because it's so minuscule, in 515 00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:26,480 Speaker 1: my opinion, at least, it's so minuscule that simply by 516 00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:30,440 Speaker 1: testing that bit of evidence, it's going to eradicate the 517 00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:33,040 Speaker 1: evidence at that point. Essentially, at the end, you're just 518 00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:35,880 Speaker 1: going to have a finding, you know, through the testing 519 00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:38,920 Speaker 1: whether it's DNA or you know, fiber evidence or whatever 520 00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:42,680 Speaker 1: the case might be. Are potentially even even fingerprint evidence, 521 00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:46,080 Speaker 1: and so it's going to be consumptive testing that evidence 522 00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:50,240 Speaker 1: will no longer exist to be tested. Again, that's what 523 00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:52,800 Speaker 1: the defense is putting forth, That's what the state is 524 00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:55,800 Speaker 1: stating is going to happen, and they have waited some 525 00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:59,040 Speaker 1: time to do this. I am I think, like many people, 526 00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:01,120 Speaker 1: struck by the fact that it hasn't been done to 527 00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:05,680 Speaker 1: this point. Again, back to this idea of individualization. These 528 00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:08,760 Speaker 1: are specific tie back, scientific tie backs to everybody that 529 00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:12,840 Speaker 1: had contact with these bodies who was involved in these 530 00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:15,840 Speaker 1: events leading up to the death. And one of the 531 00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:17,560 Speaker 1: things that comes to mind is and one of the 532 00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:19,960 Speaker 1: things that's the most striking for me is they've talked 533 00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:24,240 Speaker 1: about these dried dark spots that are on the handles 534 00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:27,960 Speaker 1: of both a pick axe and on the handle of 535 00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:30,960 Speaker 1: shovel and I don't know the side hanging right there 536 00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:34,280 Speaker 1: a second, Joe, let's detail what you're talking about here. 537 00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:40,120 Speaker 1: Prosecutors want to send for testing. Hairs found on duct 538 00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:43,200 Speaker 1: tape inside the body bag that was used to transport j. J. 539 00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:48,720 Speaker 1: Valo's body, fingerprint details on the adhesive side of the tape, 540 00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:51,680 Speaker 1: dark spots on the handles of a shovel and a 541 00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:56,520 Speaker 1: pickaxe recovered from the day Bell property, swabs from JJ's 542 00:32:56,560 --> 00:33:02,040 Speaker 1: fingernails that were obtained during his autopsy. Those are the 543 00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:05,280 Speaker 1: things you're referencing. Yeah, it is. Let's kind of go 544 00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:09,280 Speaker 1: through these and think about what, you know, what each 545 00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:11,880 Speaker 1: of these means. People talk a lot about d n A, 546 00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:16,120 Speaker 1: It's not all going to necessarily be DNA. It can 547 00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:18,960 Speaker 1: be other things of other evidentiary value. I think the 548 00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:22,160 Speaker 1: duct tape is a fine example of this because not 549 00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:25,360 Speaker 1: only what we have found out is not only are 550 00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:29,400 Speaker 1: there potential latent prints that are left behind on the tape. 551 00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:34,240 Speaker 1: Latent prints means that it's potentially either an invisible print 552 00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:38,000 Speaker 1: or if you think about the adhesive and everybody at 553 00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:40,120 Speaker 1: home you can do this yourself. But if you have 554 00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:41,680 Speaker 1: a piece of tape, take a piece of tape and 555 00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:44,840 Speaker 1: go to the adherent side, the sticky side, and roll 556 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:48,720 Speaker 1: your finger the pad of your finger over that adherent 557 00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:51,440 Speaker 1: that he's upside and when you pull it away, you 558 00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:55,160 Speaker 1: can actually see that there is a finger print that 559 00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:56,920 Speaker 1: is left there. That's what we refer to as a 560 00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:59,760 Speaker 1: plastic print. It's not a typical print that has been 561 00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:03,160 Speaker 1: left behind by fatty lipids, which you know, you go 562 00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:04,960 Speaker 1: to a non poor surface like a mirror and you 563 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:08,440 Speaker 1: put your fingers on that surface, you'll leave behind a 564 00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:12,000 Speaker 1: print there that's that is there because of a transfer 565 00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:15,359 Speaker 1: from the kind of the fatty residue that's seeping through 566 00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:18,400 Speaker 1: on the paths of your fingers. With this in the 567 00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:21,400 Speaker 1: adhesive of the tape, and I can only imagine that 568 00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:23,440 Speaker 1: might be what they're talking about. You're gonna have an 569 00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:27,600 Speaker 1: impression that has been left behind that is going to 570 00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:32,279 Speaker 1: be a visible print. Perhaps the trick is, how do 571 00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:36,319 Speaker 1: you examine that print without destroying it? And are they 572 00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:38,719 Speaker 1: going to be able to do that? They've talked about that, 573 00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:41,799 Speaker 1: I know, for instance, I don't know if they've identified 574 00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:45,520 Speaker 1: some type of item that is within that impression that 575 00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:48,400 Speaker 1: has been left behind. Certainly you could have perhaps a 576 00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:52,239 Speaker 1: skin cell that is left there in that adhesive. And 577 00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:55,640 Speaker 1: then you're left with this idea, well, do I examine 578 00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:59,719 Speaker 1: the print or do I extricate that bit of by 579 00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:03,359 Speaker 1: alt tical tissue to do a DNA And you're gonna 580 00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:05,759 Speaker 1: have to sacrifice one in order to do the other. 581 00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:08,440 Speaker 1: Perhaps maybe it's only a partial print, but yet you 582 00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:10,839 Speaker 1: have some kind of biological item that's in there, say, 583 00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:13,520 Speaker 1: for instance, like skin or tissue or something, or even blood, 584 00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:16,600 Speaker 1: I'm gonna have to destroy that in order to compromise 585 00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:18,640 Speaker 1: one thing to get the other. Then you think about 586 00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:24,640 Speaker 1: JJ's fingernails, and this was quite horrible. I know, remember 587 00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:28,080 Speaker 1: he had been he had been entombed to use the 588 00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:31,080 Speaker 1: term that was used earlier, but you know he's interred 589 00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:33,840 Speaker 1: in this this grave that has been dug and he's 590 00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:37,320 Speaker 1: been down for a while. We're talking from I think September. 591 00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:40,080 Speaker 1: I can't remember the exact number of months, but it 592 00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:43,520 Speaker 1: was a protracted period of time. They went't missing in September. 593 00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:47,640 Speaker 1: I know his nails were still intact, which is not uncommon. 594 00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:52,240 Speaker 1: But they have evidence that they've recovered from beneath the nails. 595 00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:57,320 Speaker 1: And what happens at autopsy when we do nail examinations 596 00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:00,840 Speaker 1: is that you do two things. You look or tissue 597 00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:04,920 Speaker 1: that's caught beneath the nail, where you have skin cells 598 00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:08,160 Speaker 1: that are perhaps caught up. You have tissue that is 599 00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:11,640 Speaker 1: rolled up beneath there. Again, if it's skin or any 600 00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:14,480 Speaker 1: kind of tissue, you can perhaps you can get a 601 00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:18,200 Speaker 1: biological sample from that. And then we do nail clippings. 602 00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:21,280 Speaker 1: So the nails would have been clipped at that point 603 00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:24,759 Speaker 1: and collected and held onto. They still have all of that. 604 00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:27,600 Speaker 1: That's something that has been captured that they're trying to 605 00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:30,840 Speaker 1: determine what to do with it, and so that's quite striking. 606 00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:33,680 Speaker 1: I think in this case, we have to think about 607 00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:37,319 Speaker 1: they found, apparently going back to the tape, a hair 608 00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:39,960 Speaker 1: or hairs they are caught up in the tape. The 609 00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:43,040 Speaker 1: question is whose hair is it and it's one thing 610 00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:46,400 Speaker 1: you would have an expectation that you would have JJ's 611 00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:49,279 Speaker 1: hair that may be on the tape. But if it's 612 00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:53,440 Speaker 1: another hair, is that hair viable? And what what's the 613 00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:55,759 Speaker 1: point of origin? Is it a head hair? Is it 614 00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:58,319 Speaker 1: a pubic hair? Is it an arm hair that has 615 00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:00,600 Speaker 1: been pulled off? And when you begin to look at 616 00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:03,560 Speaker 1: the morphology of the hair, that is the examination of 617 00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:05,600 Speaker 1: the nature of the hair, you can kind of identify 618 00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:08,719 Speaker 1: that in one big grouping. But then you begin to 619 00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:12,520 Speaker 1: think about DNA examination of the hair. Is it a bulb? 620 00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:15,800 Speaker 1: Do you actually have it yanked out from the base, 621 00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:17,839 Speaker 1: from the root, if you will, and that's a much 622 00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:21,719 Speaker 1: more rich area in order to harvest DNA from. Or 623 00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:26,239 Speaker 1: is it merely a broken shaft. That's a bit less 624 00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:28,960 Speaker 1: specific because you're gonna have to do matochondrial DNA on 625 00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:31,759 Speaker 1: the shaft of a hair. So the idea is to 626 00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:34,160 Speaker 1: track that hair back to try to find that point 627 00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:38,319 Speaker 1: of origin. Now, if Chad day Bell, who has been 628 00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:43,320 Speaker 1: charged in this case, and there's indications that Alex Cox 629 00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:46,719 Speaker 1: was involved in this, I think that the defense is 630 00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:49,919 Speaker 1: going to say, well, we would expect to find hair 631 00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:53,800 Speaker 1: from Chad day Bell or or Alex Cox, because both 632 00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:58,000 Speaker 1: of these men were in JJ's life, and this is 633 00:37:58,080 --> 00:37:59,880 Speaker 1: kind of an arbitrary find, and they're going to try 634 00:37:59,920 --> 00:38:03,480 Speaker 1: to paint it like that it's an expected finding. You know, 635 00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:06,919 Speaker 1: you have a commingling of DNA, perhaps, but I think 636 00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:09,239 Speaker 1: that the fact that it's caught up in that tape 637 00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:11,719 Speaker 1: and that tape was used to bind him up is 638 00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:13,400 Speaker 1: it is going to be very, very powerful of it. 639 00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:17,720 Speaker 1: The biggest issue with this testing is that once it's done, 640 00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:22,640 Speaker 1: it's done. There will not be another opportunity to conduct 641 00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:27,959 Speaker 1: a test if any error is made. Obviously they're wanting 642 00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:31,400 Speaker 1: to find the possibility of finding out who was present 643 00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:35,600 Speaker 1: at the time the murders took place. However, once this 644 00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:40,919 Speaker 1: testing is done, it is done. All possibilities of any 645 00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:45,800 Speaker 1: future testing are lost. Yeah, there's no do over. There's 646 00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:50,399 Speaker 1: no do over whatsoever. Even the prosecution, the state is 647 00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:52,799 Speaker 1: that's what they're stating. This is going to be a 648 00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:55,760 Speaker 1: consumptive test. It's gonna be gone forever and ever. Amen. 649 00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:02,600 Speaker 1: One interesting part to this is that the defense has 650 00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:07,960 Speaker 1: stated that they want representatives there for this testing. I 651 00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:11,600 Speaker 1: think the folks at the State Crime Lab said, you know, no, No, 652 00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:15,440 Speaker 1: that's not gonna happen. One individual did at least, and 653 00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:19,480 Speaker 1: people have stated relative to the DNA testing that they 654 00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:21,960 Speaker 1: would like an observer there, maybe a third party to 655 00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:25,839 Speaker 1: do it. I think somebody is even uh even put 656 00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:28,640 Speaker 1: forth this idea that you get an independent lab to 657 00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:31,480 Speaker 1: examine that, and that's that's not gonna happen, because, as 658 00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:33,719 Speaker 1: I stay, what did I stayed earlier? I stated that 659 00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:36,840 Speaker 1: this is the state's evidence. There's a reason that the 660 00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:39,719 Speaker 1: people of I'd hope pay to have a state crime lab. 661 00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:42,520 Speaker 1: It is the tool that the state uses in order 662 00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:46,080 Speaker 1: to process evidence. It is, to the best of my knowledge, 663 00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:48,839 Speaker 1: a certified lab, so that means that it meets all 664 00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:50,799 Speaker 1: of the standards. So what are you saying that they're 665 00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:53,759 Speaker 1: going to do something nefarious to the evidence. I don't 666 00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:55,880 Speaker 1: think that that would be the case. You want a 667 00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:58,759 Speaker 1: third party to come in. I think that that might 668 00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:00,960 Speaker 1: be reasonable, But one of the problems is is that 669 00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:04,040 Speaker 1: you run the risk of cross contamination. You know, the 670 00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:06,520 Speaker 1: more people that are involved in this thing, the more 671 00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:09,360 Speaker 1: damage that can be done. So those are very interesting 672 00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:12,279 Speaker 1: questions that the court is going to have to deal with. 673 00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:13,880 Speaker 1: The judge is going to have to deal with. And 674 00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:17,120 Speaker 1: I think that it's a It can be a dangerous precedent, 675 00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:20,760 Speaker 1: if you will, because if they move forward and they say, okay, well, 676 00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:23,920 Speaker 1: we're gonna deviate from what the norm is here, from 677 00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:27,720 Speaker 1: what our standard is, and that means that this case 678 00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:32,280 Speaker 1: would be impactful, not just obviously on everybody that's involved, 679 00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:34,799 Speaker 1: but any other cases that move forward in state of 680 00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:38,520 Speaker 1: Idaho relative to criminal prosecution. They say, well, you know 681 00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:40,479 Speaker 1: they got it done. We want to have this done 682 00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:44,560 Speaker 1: as well. And it literally becomes a true nightmare, not 683 00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:47,920 Speaker 1: just from an administration standpoint, but certainly from getting to 684 00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:51,640 Speaker 1: the truth. So that's this. This case is going to resonate. 685 00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:54,880 Speaker 1: Both of these cases will resonate in Idaho and maybe 686 00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:57,040 Speaker 1: across the country for years and years to come. You 687 00:40:57,160 --> 00:41:01,080 Speaker 1: brought up the state officials saying, no, we really don't 688 00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:05,520 Speaker 1: want anybody there observing. And the fact of the matter is, Joe, 689 00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:08,920 Speaker 1: is that they're worried about human error. They're worried about 690 00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:13,640 Speaker 1: being distracted. Since this is the only opportunity to do 691 00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:19,160 Speaker 1: this testing. Any distractions can lead to human error. So 692 00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:24,200 Speaker 1: unless this person who is watching stands still, doesn't move, 693 00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:29,279 Speaker 1: doesn't talk, that's the only way to eliminate the possibility. 694 00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:32,839 Speaker 1: They're worried about human error. Yeah, they are, they are. 695 00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:35,120 Speaker 1: You have to think about, well, what would that person's 696 00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:38,319 Speaker 1: role be that would be there. Would they be participating 697 00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:40,440 Speaker 1: in the testing or would they just be an observer? 698 00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:43,960 Speaker 1: Do they make comment? Again, you're talking about error and 699 00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:47,600 Speaker 1: being distracted. And look from a medical legal standpoint, I've 700 00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:50,960 Speaker 1: been involved in cases autopsies, for instance, where we've had 701 00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:53,480 Speaker 1: third parties that are present in the autopsy suite. I 702 00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:55,600 Speaker 1: think famously one of the cases that comes to mind 703 00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:59,440 Speaker 1: in recent years is Epstein's case. Remember. Dr Boden was 704 00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:02,759 Speaker 1: physically present. He was representative for the family that was 705 00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:05,880 Speaker 1: there during Jeffrey Epstein's autopsy, and of course that was 706 00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:08,759 Speaker 1: a case that they suspected as being suicide. But yet 707 00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:11,480 Speaker 1: he was there, He was physically in the autopsy suite. 708 00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:14,640 Speaker 1: He made his own observations in that environment. But he 709 00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:18,120 Speaker 1: was not there an official capacity representing the state. He 710 00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:22,520 Speaker 1: was representing the family. And in this particular case, we're 711 00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:26,240 Speaker 1: talking not about a case that is involving a suicide. 712 00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:29,640 Speaker 1: We're talking about a criminal case where you have these 713 00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:31,920 Speaker 1: delicate tests that are having to be done. This is 714 00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:35,600 Speaker 1: not like an autopsy. That's very don't give me, don't 715 00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:39,000 Speaker 1: mistake me. Autopsies are delicate, all right, but when you're 716 00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:44,280 Speaker 1: talking about dealing with microscopic evidence and a molecular evidence 717 00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:46,440 Speaker 1: to put a finer point on it, you don't want 718 00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:54,640 Speaker 1: any distractions. There's too much resting on this. I'm Joseph 719 00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:57,800 Speaker 1: Scott Morgan, and this is body Backs.