1
00:00:03,520 --> 00:00:07,040
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg Law Podcast. I'm June Grosso. Every

2
00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:09,680
Speaker 1: day we bring you inside an analysis into the most

3
00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,200
Speaker 1: important legal news of the day. You can find more

4
00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:16,160
Speaker 1: episodes of the Bloomberg Law Podcast on Apple podcast, SoundCloud

5
00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:20,480
Speaker 1: and on Bloomberg dot com slash podcasts. President Trump tweeted

6
00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:25,439
Speaker 1: that his administration is revoking California's federal waiver on emissions,

7
00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:29,159
Speaker 1: confirming a widely anticipated move that will lead to a

8
00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:31,760
Speaker 1: major legal battle, perhaps that could make it to the

9
00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:35,720
Speaker 1: Supreme Court. At a news conference, California's governor and attorney

10
00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:40,360
Speaker 1: general vow to fight the Trump administration in court. Joining

11
00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:43,360
Speaker 1: me now is Michael Gerard, Professor Columbia Law School and

12
00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:48,040
Speaker 1: director of the Saventh Center for Climate Change Law. Professor,

13
00:00:48,120 --> 00:00:51,440
Speaker 1: California has been setting a stricter standard for emissions for

14
00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:55,040
Speaker 1: many years. Will you explain the waiver they're operating under

15
00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:57,960
Speaker 1: and what's at stake here? So? The Clean Air Act

16
00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:03,600
Speaker 1: of ural government sets the vehicle emission standards and greenhouse

17
00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:08,479
Speaker 1: gas standards nationwide. But they Congress let California set its

18
00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:11,800
Speaker 1: own um tougher standard if E p. A gave him

19
00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:14,360
Speaker 1: a waiver to do that. So E p A has

20
00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:17,560
Speaker 1: always given a waiver to California until now. Now they're

21
00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:20,600
Speaker 1: taking it away for the first time. So the A. G.

22
00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:24,800
Speaker 1: Javier bass Era has said that they will sue nothing

23
00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:29,560
Speaker 1: new for his office suing over Obama era environmental regulations,

24
00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:32,759
Speaker 1: but can you envision what the grounds for their lawsuit

25
00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:36,759
Speaker 1: would be. Well, the Trump administration so far has compiled

26
00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:39,200
Speaker 1: a pretty poor record in the way it goes about

27
00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:42,520
Speaker 1: trying to provoke regulations, and many of the attempts that

28
00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:46,880
Speaker 1: they have made have failed. Um, there is no precedent

29
00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:50,120
Speaker 1: for revoking a waiver. The reasons that they seem to

30
00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:53,800
Speaker 1: be given are that they have recalculated the costs and

31
00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:57,560
Speaker 1: benefits of greenhouse gasses UM and there are a whole

32
00:01:57,600 --> 00:01:59,800
Speaker 1: lot of technical questions about the way that they have

33
00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:05,040
Speaker 1: on that. It's also clear that one impact of this revocation,

34
00:02:05,160 --> 00:02:09,400
Speaker 1: if it survives in court, is very is much higher

35
00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:13,160
Speaker 1: not only greenhouse gas emissions, but also much higher fuel

36
00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:16,160
Speaker 1: expenditures for drivers because it's going to mean that the

37
00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:18,880
Speaker 1: cars are going to be driving will be consuming a

38
00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:23,160
Speaker 1: lot more gasoline per gallant per per mile. Well, at

39
00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:26,200
Speaker 1: the press conference, that was one thing that they seemed

40
00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:29,600
Speaker 1: to be hitting on that this was a better choice

41
00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:33,680
Speaker 1: for consumers, and also that the car industry was on

42
00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:40,040
Speaker 1: board with it. Well. Ford, Honda, Lukswagen, and BMW have

43
00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:43,440
Speaker 1: all signed in agreement with the state of California saying

44
00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:46,840
Speaker 1: that regardless of what the federal government does, they're going

45
00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:50,639
Speaker 1: to go ahead and uh and sell the cleaner, more

46
00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:53,880
Speaker 1: fuel efficient cars. One of the things that they said

47
00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:57,200
Speaker 1: is that they didn't have to bend twist arms to

48
00:02:57,280 --> 00:03:00,440
Speaker 1: get the automakers that you mentioned to come on board,

49
00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:04,040
Speaker 1: that they were looking to the future and what they

50
00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:08,639
Speaker 1: saw ahead. That's right. The auto industry is very eager

51
00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:11,680
Speaker 1: to have to just make one kind of car. Um

52
00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:14,519
Speaker 1: They don't like the idea of having to make different

53
00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:18,680
Speaker 1: cars for different states. And they realize that stricter fuel

54
00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:21,920
Speaker 1: economy standards are are coming down the road. We know

55
00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:26,000
Speaker 1: that if the administration changes after the next election, the

56
00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:30,000
Speaker 1: next administration will call for stronger standards. So these these

57
00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:33,800
Speaker 1: four companies, as I said, want the cleaner car standards.

58
00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:38,560
Speaker 1: And what's your opinion of the antitrust investigation that the

59
00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:42,840
Speaker 1: Justice Department recently opened into that deal between California and

60
00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:47,880
Speaker 1: the four automakers. It's hard to envision that as being

61
00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:53,600
Speaker 1: anything other than the President's annoyance at California, UM I

62
00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:57,560
Speaker 1: haven't seen any coherent anti trust theory for what why

63
00:03:57,640 --> 00:04:01,760
Speaker 1: what they're doing is a violation of anything and the

64
00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:04,200
Speaker 1: uh they're they're doing it with an agreement with the

65
00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:08,840
Speaker 1: government and that makes them enjoy certain immunities. The California

66
00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:12,560
Speaker 1: a g said the lawsuit would depend on what they're

67
00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:15,520
Speaker 1: actually doing. At the e p A, they're going to

68
00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:18,240
Speaker 1: revoke their waiver, and it also is their involvement of

69
00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:23,880
Speaker 1: the Transportation Authority as well. It's really confusing. Yeah, The

70
00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:29,120
Speaker 1: Environmental Protection Agency says the greenhouse gas emission standards. The

71
00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:32,120
Speaker 1: National Highway Transportation Safety Board, which is part of the

72
00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:35,960
Speaker 1: Department of Transportation, says that full economy standards. They're very

73
00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:39,440
Speaker 1: closely linked and they were tied together. So the only

74
00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:42,880
Speaker 1: thing official we have so far is the president's tweet

75
00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:46,200
Speaker 1: when they published the formal notice in the Federal Register.

76
00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:49,040
Speaker 1: Will see exactly what they're doing, But it sounds like

77
00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:53,560
Speaker 1: that both these agencies, the Transportation Department and EPA, are

78
00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:57,240
Speaker 1: going to be taking action. Mary Nichols, who's the head

79
00:04:57,240 --> 00:05:01,040
Speaker 1: of California's Air Resources Board, said at this is more

80
00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:04,719
Speaker 1: than just about setting emission standards. It's also about the

81
00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:08,920
Speaker 1: health of California's residents and that this is not taking

82
00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:11,839
Speaker 1: that into consideration, that it's more than just climate change.

83
00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:17,359
Speaker 1: That's exactly right, because the same combustion of gasoline that

84
00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:22,120
Speaker 1: generates greenhouse gases also generates carbon monoxide and nitrous oxides

85
00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:25,760
Speaker 1: and other plutents that are unhealthy. So Andrew Wheeler and

86
00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:28,960
Speaker 1: the e p A said that what they want to

87
00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:33,680
Speaker 1: have is one national standard for all tail pipe pollution.

88
00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:37,159
Speaker 1: Is that something that would actually be good for the

89
00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:40,920
Speaker 1: country to have one standard? Yes, and that is exactly

90
00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:43,839
Speaker 1: what we have now. The agreement that was struck between

91
00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:46,800
Speaker 1: the auto industry and e p A and also with

92
00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:49,880
Speaker 1: California on board in two thousand and ten, was for

93
00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:56,880
Speaker 1: one national standard that would aggressively tighten through. The administration

94
00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:01,480
Speaker 1: is now also talking about trying to kill that deal,

95
00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:05,520
Speaker 1: but just a continuation of the of the existing rules

96
00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:09,800
Speaker 1: would be one national standard. And again at the press conference,

97
00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:14,240
Speaker 1: the governor of California query, what is this for. It's

98
00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:16,800
Speaker 1: not good for consumers, that the automakers don't want it.

99
00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:20,359
Speaker 1: Who wants it? So that's my question to you, what's

100
00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:24,960
Speaker 1: the reason for going backward? In time. Basically, well, the

101
00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:29,359
Speaker 1: only clear beneficiaries the oil industry, because if you have

102
00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:33,440
Speaker 1: more gas guzzline cars, that means they buy more gasoline.

103
00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:39,159
Speaker 1: This is pitting California once again against the Trump administration.

104
00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:43,120
Speaker 1: They have sued the Trump administration more than fifty times.

105
00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:45,320
Speaker 1: That's more than any other states. Certainly a lot of

106
00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:50,080
Speaker 1: the times on environmental issues. Is there also and did

107
00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:52,640
Speaker 1: we see this in the antitrust suit that was brought?

108
00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:56,360
Speaker 1: Is there also just this conflict between the Trump administration

109
00:06:56,440 --> 00:07:02,320
Speaker 1: and California that persists. I yes, but it's not only California. UM.

110
00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:06,599
Speaker 1: Twelve other states, for example, have joined with California and

111
00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:11,760
Speaker 1: uh historically in getting using the waiver and having more

112
00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:16,240
Speaker 1: fuel efficient cars. Uh. Several of those states, maybe all

113
00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:19,120
Speaker 1: of them are going to join with California. There are

114
00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:23,520
Speaker 1: many other states that are frequently joining with California or

115
00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:27,120
Speaker 1: on their own UM suing the Trump administration. So it's

116
00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:29,840
Speaker 1: not just that one state. So I want to read

117
00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:33,720
Speaker 1: you President Trump's tweet and get your reaction. The Trump

118
00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:37,480
Speaker 1: administration is revoking California's federal waiver on emissions in order

119
00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:41,000
Speaker 1: to produce far less expensive cars for the consumer. While

120
00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:44,160
Speaker 1: at the same time making the cars substantially safer. This

121
00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:47,840
Speaker 1: will lead to more production because of this pricing and safety.

122
00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:51,480
Speaker 1: Is that factually true? No? I mean the safety argument

123
00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:56,160
Speaker 1: is really um is really focus and that has been

124
00:07:56,520 --> 00:07:59,680
Speaker 1: refuted several times when they first floated it. And as

125
00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:02,560
Speaker 1: I said, that's not good for consumers either because in

126
00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:05,520
Speaker 1: the long terminal means that it'll mean that the operation

127
00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:09,240
Speaker 1: of the car costs much more. The California A G said,

128
00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:12,120
Speaker 1: we want to see the facts and the science together

129
00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:14,920
Speaker 1: with their change and the rules here with the Trump

130
00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:19,120
Speaker 1: administration change has that been one of the winning arguments

131
00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:22,280
Speaker 1: for California and some of these environmental suits that the

132
00:08:22,320 --> 00:08:26,760
Speaker 1: science doesn't support what the Trump administration is doing. Yeah.

133
00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:32,560
Speaker 1: The Trump administration, of course denies that climate change is

134
00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:35,959
Speaker 1: mostly caused by humans and as having very adverse effects.

135
00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:39,000
Speaker 1: The courts are not buying it. Not a single court

136
00:08:39,160 --> 00:08:43,160
Speaker 1: has embraced the climate denial that we hear from the

137
00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:46,760
Speaker 1: Trump administration. And the administration also has not been very

138
00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:50,440
Speaker 1: careful about following the necessary administered procedures. Who on both

139
00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:53,520
Speaker 1: counts that they usually lose. Thank you so much for

140
00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:56,240
Speaker 1: coming on today, professor. That's Michael Gerard is a professor

141
00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:58,600
Speaker 1: Columbia Law School and director of the SAVEN Center for

142
00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:01,920
Speaker 1: Climate Change Law. We hook you'll join us again. Thanks

143
00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:05,240
Speaker 1: for listening to the Bloomberg Law Podcast. You can subscribe

144
00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:08,480
Speaker 1: and listen to the show on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, and

145
00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:13,000
Speaker 1: on bloomberg dot com slash podcast. I'm June Brosso. This

146
00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:14,080
Speaker 1: is Bloomberg