WEBVTT - Dave Butler Discusses Finance and Basketball 0:00:02.240 --> 0:00:06.800 This is Master's in Business with Barry Ridholts on Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:10.320 --> 0:00:13.320 This week on the podcast, I have an extra special guest. 0:00:13.920 --> 0:00:16.840 His name is Dave Butler, and he is the co 0:00:17.120 --> 0:00:22.720 CEO of Dimensional Fund Advisors, which manages about six hundred 0:00:22.800 --> 0:00:28.720 billion dollars UM. Dave has really a fascinating background UM, 0:00:28.760 --> 0:00:33.640 not only academically but in the professional sports world UH, 0:00:33.640 --> 0:00:37.480 and the arc of his career over the past let's 0:00:37.479 --> 0:00:42.239 call it thirty years, very much tracks the development of 0:00:43.080 --> 0:00:48.000 many of the dominant trends that have taken place today 0:00:48.000 --> 0:00:53.800 in finance. So whether it's independent advice, or indexing or 0:00:54.000 --> 0:00:59.440 multi factor investing, he has been a part of UM, 0:00:59.560 --> 0:01:03.360 let's just cool it, the movement. Dimensional Funds UH is 0:01:03.480 --> 0:01:08.840 very much a culture driven, philosophically driven firm that he's 0:01:08.880 --> 0:01:11.000 been a large part of for a long time. Not 0:01:11.120 --> 0:01:14.919 only does he work with his co CEO, GERARDA. Riley, 0:01:14.920 --> 0:01:19.160 but he also works closely with Chairman David booth Um, 0:01:19.240 --> 0:01:25.119 directing UH Dimensional Funds into the latest iteration of of 0:01:25.160 --> 0:01:28.200 where finance is going UH. If you are at all 0:01:28.280 --> 0:01:35.680 interested in independent advisory, asset management, factor based investing, UH, 0:01:35.720 --> 0:01:39.120 sustainable based investing, I think you will find this conversation 0:01:39.160 --> 0:01:43.560 to be absolutely fascinating. So, with no further ado, my 0:01:43.720 --> 0:01:51.240 conversation with Dave Butler. My special guest this week is 0:01:51.320 --> 0:01:55.760 David Butler. He is the co CEO and head of 0:01:55.800 --> 0:02:00.960 Global Financial Advisor Services for Dimensional Fund Advice Serves, which 0:02:01.040 --> 0:02:05.680 manages over six hundred billion dollars. Dave got his BS 0:02:05.800 --> 0:02:11.920 from Berkeley and his NBA same place before he decided 0:02:11.960 --> 0:02:14.720 to play around with round ball a little bit. Uh. 0:02:14.800 --> 0:02:18.640 Dave Butler, welcome to Bloomberg. Thank you. So let's let's 0:02:18.680 --> 0:02:23.400 talk a little bit about pre finance career. You played 0:02:23.440 --> 0:02:26.800 basketball in college and you were drafted by the Celtics. 0:02:27.080 --> 0:02:28.960 That's right. Yeah, So I was drafted by the Celtics 0:02:29.000 --> 0:02:33.440 back in seven and uh. The year I got drafted, 0:02:33.440 --> 0:02:35.959 oddly enough, they had a strike. An NBA player strikes. 0:02:36.040 --> 0:02:38.160 So normally, as a player, you get a chance to 0:02:38.200 --> 0:02:39.560 go try out and they can tell you whether you 0:02:39.600 --> 0:02:42.160 have a shot to make it or not. Unfortunately, didn't 0:02:42.160 --> 0:02:45.000 have a tryout that particular summer, so I made a 0:02:45.000 --> 0:02:48.520 decision to go over to Turkey and and play my 0:02:48.560 --> 0:02:51.440 first year in Turkey. Um, I had a I was 0:02:51.560 --> 0:02:54.400 actually a young kid just sitting around the house in 0:02:54.400 --> 0:02:57.120 the summer, and uh, you know, I know, I'll go 0:02:57.200 --> 0:02:59.200 to the Middle East of my Calton said, hey, s 0:02:59.200 --> 0:03:00.880 tam Bowl wants you to come over and try out. 0:03:00.919 --> 0:03:03.000 And I had been in great shape. I was getting 0:03:03.000 --> 0:03:05.520 ready for the Celtic camp. I went over to Turkey 0:03:05.560 --> 0:03:08.040 and they offered me twice what I would have made 0:03:08.080 --> 0:03:11.000 as a rookie in the NBA. And I thought to myself, 0:03:11.040 --> 0:03:13.600 I wasn't sure when the NBA strike would end, so 0:03:13.680 --> 0:03:15.440 I thought, well, I'll go over to Turkey, I'll work 0:03:15.440 --> 0:03:18.200 on my game, I'll get better, I'll make my first 0:03:18.400 --> 0:03:19.960 year's worth of money, and then I'll come back and 0:03:19.960 --> 0:03:21.840 I'll make the NBA the next year and make the Celtics. 0:03:21.840 --> 0:03:24.720 And but fate intervened, didn't it. Fate intervened, And I 0:03:24.720 --> 0:03:27.359 think it was about halfway through my season in Istanbul. 0:03:27.400 --> 0:03:29.480 I end up tearing a It was called a gas rock, 0:03:29.520 --> 0:03:31.680 which is your gap your calf muscle, so the muscle 0:03:31.720 --> 0:03:34.040 that connects your calf to your lower leg. And I 0:03:35.360 --> 0:03:38.040 sat out for probably about a week. Um, when you're 0:03:38.080 --> 0:03:41.280 the American player on a on a European team like 0:03:41.280 --> 0:03:44.600 in Istanbul, there's one American per team. Is that by 0:03:44.720 --> 0:03:47.160 rule or in instant in Turkey that was the rule. 0:03:47.240 --> 0:03:49.720 Is that a minimum or a maximum minimum uh and 0:03:49.760 --> 0:03:52.040 a maximum, it's the only number you can have. So 0:03:52.440 --> 0:03:55.800 there's one player, one American per team. And the expectation, 0:03:55.880 --> 0:03:58.120 of course, if you're that one player, is that you 0:03:58.160 --> 0:04:00.320 need to lead the team in scoring, and the lead 0:04:00.520 --> 0:04:02.240 team and rebound. You gotta you've got to be the 0:04:02.280 --> 0:04:04.960 main person. So when I got back to the States 0:04:05.000 --> 0:04:07.200 after my injury, my doctor said, you know, that was 0:04:07.200 --> 0:04:10.440 probably a two to three month uh, sit out type 0:04:10.440 --> 0:04:12.920 of nillary. And I was out for about a week. Uh, 0:04:13.000 --> 0:04:15.080 they take me up, and I kind of faked my 0:04:15.120 --> 0:04:17.160 way through the rest of the season. And that was 0:04:18.240 --> 0:04:19.880 the downside is I did a little bit of permanent 0:04:19.920 --> 0:04:22.560 damage to my calf and never really quite got back 0:04:22.560 --> 0:04:25.440 to where I I thought I could actually make the NBA. Yeah, 0:04:25.720 --> 0:04:29.080 normally at that age you're fairly immortal and recover pretty quickly. 0:04:29.160 --> 0:04:31.640 This had to be Was this a practice injury or 0:04:31.680 --> 0:04:34.119 an actual game injury? It was a actually a practice injury. 0:04:34.120 --> 0:04:35.240 So it's kind of one of those up and back 0:04:35.320 --> 0:04:38.720 drills and and I stopped and get ready to take off, 0:04:38.760 --> 0:04:40.760 and I heard this big snap and heard it. Yeah, 0:04:40.760 --> 0:04:42.440 other other people in the gym heard it too, And 0:04:42.480 --> 0:04:46.360 I thought my achilles because you always here, I've watched 0:04:46.360 --> 0:04:49.919 basketball games and you hear that pop. Someone from the 0:04:49.960 --> 0:04:55.279 Knicks trying to remember who it was. Um tour there there, 0:04:55.400 --> 0:04:57.120 Um was it? Maybe it was the A. C. L 0:04:57.720 --> 0:05:01.120 heard it pop on television. It's a afying sound, which 0:05:01.520 --> 0:05:03.760 exactly what it is. You know, right when it happens, 0:05:03.760 --> 0:05:07.680 you know you're you're you're done. So uh, you know 0:05:07.760 --> 0:05:09.680 that was it. That was That was the moment when 0:05:10.000 --> 0:05:11.640 you know, my leg kind of just you know, was 0:05:12.400 --> 0:05:14.599 limited my my potential. So I always thought I was 0:05:14.720 --> 0:05:17.880 I was a good enough player. I played enough positions 0:05:17.960 --> 0:05:21.040 and I and I did enough things. Well. I didn't 0:05:21.040 --> 0:05:23.840 ever do anything super super well, but I was good 0:05:23.920 --> 0:05:26.600 enough to I think at my peak, in my highest level, 0:05:27.320 --> 0:05:29.040 I could I could be the kind of guy that 0:05:29.080 --> 0:05:33.440 could collaborate and be on a team and you know 0:05:33.480 --> 0:05:35.120 I could. I could tip and I could rebound, and 0:05:35.160 --> 0:05:37.760 I could do that sort of dirty man kind of 0:05:37.760 --> 0:05:41.760 work on the basketball court that coach appreciated. Charles Oakley, 0:05:41.839 --> 0:05:45.880 Dennis Rodman roll Yeah about six nine, oh, so you 0:05:45.920 --> 0:05:48.640 could a little bit more maybe a little bit more outside. 0:05:48.880 --> 0:05:50.479 You know, I would had to score in Europe. I 0:05:50.480 --> 0:05:52.200 had to be able to shoot from the outside, and 0:05:52.680 --> 0:05:55.880 three point line had had just come into the existence 0:05:55.880 --> 0:05:58.920 at that time, so the three point line wasn't part 0:05:58.920 --> 0:06:01.159 of the game like it is now. Uh So I 0:06:01.160 --> 0:06:03.040 didn't really shoot threes, but I but I could, you know, 0:06:03.080 --> 0:06:05.359 have a good mid range score. I could rebound, I 0:06:05.360 --> 0:06:07.240 could dunk, and I could I could jump pretty well. 0:06:07.520 --> 0:06:09.520 People used to, um, you know, think of me as 0:06:09.560 --> 0:06:12.200 a kind of a high flyer, kind of inside type 0:06:12.200 --> 0:06:14.240 of person. So that was always a big part of 0:06:14.279 --> 0:06:17.280 my game. And your brother played professionally as well. Yes, 0:06:17.400 --> 0:06:20.240 my brother Greg is a bigger guy. He's about a 0:06:20.240 --> 0:06:23.119 seven footer. So this is what I call my little brother. 0:06:23.240 --> 0:06:27.040 But he's seven footer. He played at Stanford. I played 0:06:27.040 --> 0:06:29.440 at cal and uh so, he and I actually played 0:06:29.440 --> 0:06:33.200 against each other in college versus Stanford, so as UCLA 0:06:33.320 --> 0:06:35.320 versus USC in the Bay area kind of thing. But 0:06:36.000 --> 0:06:37.719 we actually guarded each other, so we we were on 0:06:37.760 --> 0:06:41.400 the court playing against one another, which I imagine I 0:06:41.400 --> 0:06:44.320 imagine you did that growing up anyway. Not not unfamiliar 0:06:44.360 --> 0:06:46.919 with banging body. Yeah, we we played all day long. 0:06:46.960 --> 0:06:48.560 We had a we had a uh you know, like 0:06:48.600 --> 0:06:50.680 every other kid. We had on a driveway, front yard, 0:06:50.760 --> 0:06:52.479 we had a we had a basket up on the 0:06:52.800 --> 0:06:55.240 on the garage. We played. I had an old brother. 0:06:55.320 --> 0:06:57.480 My I do have an older brother, Mike that he's 0:06:57.480 --> 0:06:59.720 about six four or six five. So he's the run 0:06:59.800 --> 0:07:01.200 to the letter. He used the run to the litter. 0:07:01.279 --> 0:07:03.200 But you know, growing up, people used to laugh because 0:07:03.200 --> 0:07:04.719 they look at the three of us, and growing up 0:07:04.720 --> 0:07:05.920 we're all about a year and a half to two 0:07:06.000 --> 0:07:07.960 years apart, but we're all the same size growing up, 0:07:08.000 --> 0:07:10.880 so that people thought we were triplets. Possibly there's no 0:07:10.960 --> 0:07:13.760 size difference, but he was. He was a tougher guy. 0:07:13.920 --> 0:07:16.920 He was more physical. Uh So I used to play 0:07:16.960 --> 0:07:18.600 against him quite a bit and played him in the 0:07:18.600 --> 0:07:21.640 front yard all day long, and um we used to 0:07:21.680 --> 0:07:25.480 go at it pretty well. Um So, so you had 0:07:25.520 --> 0:07:28.800 to be thinking beyond a career in sports, because not 0:07:28.880 --> 0:07:31.440 only do you go undergraduate at Berkeley, but you get 0:07:31.480 --> 0:07:34.520 your m b a. Was it business or finance? What 0:07:34.520 --> 0:07:37.160 what were you interested in when you were in school? Yeah, well, 0:07:37.200 --> 0:07:39.640 my my dad was an accountant and he was always 0:07:39.800 --> 0:07:44.920 a business finance guy. And he's six six three, a 0:07:45.000 --> 0:07:49.520 decent size. Um, but he was always very focused on academics. 0:07:49.520 --> 0:07:53.480 So he, you know, regardless of all the athletic accomplishments 0:07:53.560 --> 0:07:56.120 or acknowledgements to he never really paid much attention to that. 0:07:56.160 --> 0:07:59.040 He always talked about school and books and and all 0:07:59.120 --> 0:08:01.240 what's going on in what are you doing in class 0:08:01.240 --> 0:08:03.040 and so forth. So, um, So I was sort of 0:08:03.080 --> 0:08:06.080 geared in that direction anyway. And I think when I 0:08:06.120 --> 0:08:09.280 finally made my college decision, it came down to cal Stanford, 0:08:09.280 --> 0:08:12.920 and Harvard. Those are my final three choices. So obviously 0:08:13.000 --> 0:08:16.000 there was some academic aspect to to those three names 0:08:16.000 --> 0:08:20.280 that uh clearly weren't basketball shops necessarily a really great 0:08:20.320 --> 0:08:23.160 academic You got into Stanford, you got into Harvard, but 0:08:23.240 --> 0:08:27.040 you chose Berkeley because of the basketball. Uh. You know, 0:08:27.120 --> 0:08:29.160 I had a The story goes, I went on a 0:08:29.200 --> 0:08:31.400 weekend visit to each one of those. I went, I'm 0:08:31.400 --> 0:08:34.600 a California kids, southern California. I went to Harvard. It 0:08:34.640 --> 0:08:37.920 was happened to be ten degrees and snowing, and I 0:08:37.960 --> 0:08:39.920 just sort of scratched my head and I just couldn't 0:08:39.920 --> 0:08:42.400 contemplate being out there in that in that weather. And 0:08:42.440 --> 0:08:44.400 I thought I was gonna be back in California anyway. 0:08:44.760 --> 0:08:47.320 So I came down to cal Stanford and UH. I 0:08:47.360 --> 0:08:49.719 went up to Stanford and for the weekend, and when 0:08:49.720 --> 0:08:51.960 I went to two movies and sat around a dorm 0:08:52.080 --> 0:08:54.520 was super boring at the time for me. I went 0:08:54.559 --> 0:08:56.720 to cal and uh first night there, I went to 0:08:56.760 --> 0:08:59.360 toga party at a fraternity house that I thought was great. 0:08:59.600 --> 0:09:01.679 I went to a football game the next morning with 0:09:02.240 --> 0:09:04.560 you know, great son and and a lot of fun 0:09:04.600 --> 0:09:07.439 people around. We went to San Francisco that night, and 0:09:07.480 --> 0:09:09.440 I came back and I told my mom Dad, I 0:09:09.440 --> 0:09:10.800 I think, I think this is where I want to be. 0:09:10.840 --> 0:09:13.079 It's gonna be a great place to play basketball and 0:09:13.160 --> 0:09:16.240 enjoy myself as a student. That's very funny. You have 0:09:16.360 --> 0:09:19.640 a unique vantage point because not only were you an 0:09:19.679 --> 0:09:23.920 athlete in college and professionally, but you work in finance. 0:09:24.000 --> 0:09:27.320 And the question that I have to ask is, how 0:09:27.440 --> 0:09:31.240 is it that there are so many horror stories about 0:09:31.400 --> 0:09:35.319 athletes frittering away all their money. They have it stolen 0:09:35.360 --> 0:09:38.760 from them, They haven't managers who don't really do what's 0:09:38.800 --> 0:09:42.719 best for them. They are fairly reckless. What why is this? 0:09:43.280 --> 0:09:45.440 You know, it's funny. David Booth, the founder of Dimensional 0:09:45.480 --> 0:09:46.960 and I talked about this all the time because we're 0:09:46.960 --> 0:09:50.000 both big basketball fans. I think it's um you know, 0:09:50.080 --> 0:09:54.520 success comes really early to athletes, very young, young, very immature, 0:09:54.679 --> 0:09:57.599 and oftentimes you, you and I will include myself, you 0:09:57.600 --> 0:10:01.000 feel invincible so athletically, you're bigger, you're stronger, you're faster, 0:10:01.160 --> 0:10:03.720 you can you know, the idea of being thirty or 0:10:03.720 --> 0:10:06.239 forty or fifty years old, it doesn't even seem plausible, 0:10:06.320 --> 0:10:08.520 you know, at the time. So the idea of actually 0:10:08.600 --> 0:10:11.040 thinking into the future and then saving or trying to 0:10:11.200 --> 0:10:13.400 be conservative about how you spend and so forth, it's 0:10:13.440 --> 0:10:15.600 just not something that comes to mind at that time. 0:10:15.679 --> 0:10:17.760 And Uh, I think that's part of the issue is 0:10:17.760 --> 0:10:21.280 I just don't think the maturity level is there to 0:10:21.400 --> 0:10:24.319 be able to differentiate how and why you would actually 0:10:25.000 --> 0:10:28.000 make a plan from a financial perspective, you know, into 0:10:28.040 --> 0:10:32.200 your future. There was there was a huge Sports Illustrated article, 0:10:32.600 --> 0:10:35.760 I know, maybe ten years ago or and the numbers 0:10:35.800 --> 0:10:40.320 about the NFL are horrifying, and the NBA and Major 0:10:40.400 --> 0:10:45.160 League Baseball not all that much better. Uh has that 0:10:45.280 --> 0:10:48.199 changed at all? Or athletes becoming a little smarter about 0:10:48.200 --> 0:10:50.959 their money or is it still the same sets of 0:10:51.160 --> 0:10:53.400 temptations and impulses. Well, I've been I've been doing this 0:10:53.440 --> 0:10:56.840 for twenty five years now, dimensional and I've had the 0:10:56.880 --> 0:10:59.120 same discussion I did twenty five years ago as I 0:10:59.160 --> 0:11:01.200 did today, because people asked me that as an old athlete, 0:11:01.200 --> 0:11:03.520 you know, how do you change the energy and the 0:11:03.559 --> 0:11:06.240 momentum around athletes in their future in terms of finance, 0:11:06.800 --> 0:11:09.360 And it's um it just I think it comes back 0:11:09.400 --> 0:11:12.160 to there's a there's an ego aspect. Uh, there's a 0:11:12.240 --> 0:11:15.160 mentality that you know that this this is never gonna end. 0:11:15.520 --> 0:11:16.840 But to your point, you know, when you look at 0:11:16.880 --> 0:11:19.280 the NFL, I think the average career is three years 0:11:19.640 --> 0:11:21.840 and the NBA is something on the order of two 0:11:21.840 --> 0:11:24.760 to three years. And when you think about how long 0:11:25.040 --> 0:11:27.880 you know this these careers after the athletic career is 0:11:27.920 --> 0:11:31.480 gonna last, it's it dwarfs anything athletically. But to get 0:11:31.520 --> 0:11:33.280 that message across to a young kid, I think it's 0:11:33.320 --> 0:11:36.600 really tough. My my personal perspective on it, and I've 0:11:36.600 --> 0:11:39.000 talked to David Booth about this as well as I 0:11:39.040 --> 0:11:42.080 think the n c A UH with college athletes ought 0:11:42.160 --> 0:11:45.960 to put some sort of a trust fund together, you know, 0:11:45.960 --> 0:11:47.400 with the money they're making off the n c A 0:11:47.440 --> 0:11:49.920 tournament and so forth, put a trust fund together that's 0:11:49.960 --> 0:11:53.679 not touchable, not available till till age um. And at 0:11:54.720 --> 0:11:57.080 once a kid has had the chance to go through 0:11:57.559 --> 0:12:00.640 the professional process, maybe they get injured like I did, 0:12:01.000 --> 0:12:03.120 and they start looking around and they think, you know, 0:12:03.200 --> 0:12:06.160 this athletic thing is not going to happen. Uh. Then 0:12:06.200 --> 0:12:07.920 that's the moment when I think, and I, you know, 0:12:07.960 --> 0:12:10.240 a trust that would allow them to go back to school, 0:12:10.360 --> 0:12:12.400 go back to get a grad degree, etcetera, etcetera, would 0:12:12.440 --> 0:12:15.640 be would be really really valuable. At one or twenty, 0:12:15.640 --> 0:12:17.840 it just is not going to happen, because again, they're 0:12:17.880 --> 0:12:20.439 invincible and they can't imagine that they're not the one 0:12:20.480 --> 0:12:23.120 that's going to go play professional sports. I can tell 0:12:23.120 --> 0:12:25.680 you every every player on my Cal basketball team, all 0:12:25.720 --> 0:12:28.240 twelve guys, I thought for sure that they were the 0:12:28.240 --> 0:12:30.560 one that was going to go play in the NBA. 0:12:30.679 --> 0:12:32.679 And it's it's frankly because all of them were all 0:12:32.679 --> 0:12:35.400 State and All American and all this and all that. Um, 0:12:35.440 --> 0:12:37.319 So there's a lot of ego into it. There's a 0:12:37.360 --> 0:12:39.959 lot of parental ego. I see that now with my kids. 0:12:40.960 --> 0:12:45.720 The parents I think are so enamored with sport and 0:12:45.760 --> 0:12:50.360 with the notoriety if you will, that comes from athletic success, 0:12:50.440 --> 0:12:52.720 that they get involved and they get energized by the 0:12:52.720 --> 0:12:55.319 whole thing, and I think that I think that's problematic 0:12:55.360 --> 0:12:57.199 as well. So I, you know, with my kids, I 0:12:57.800 --> 0:13:00.360 try to just say, look, you know, it's all about school, 0:13:00.400 --> 0:13:02.240 just like my dad is all about academics. If you 0:13:02.320 --> 0:13:04.160 happen to be a good basketball player, I happen to 0:13:04.200 --> 0:13:07.240 be a good volleyball player, great, God bless you. That 0:13:07.320 --> 0:13:09.199 might help you get into a better school. But it's 0:13:09.240 --> 0:13:10.720 never gonna be about that. It's going to be all 0:13:10.760 --> 0:13:16.199 about academics. You seem horrifically rational and reasonable. We mentioned 0:13:16.679 --> 0:13:19.559 the length of careers. You've been doing this for twenty 0:13:19.640 --> 0:13:24.440 five years. Tell us how you transition from sports into finance. 0:13:24.440 --> 0:13:26.439 How did you end up on Wall Street? Well, you're 0:13:26.480 --> 0:13:27.960 you're a New York guy, so I think you'll get 0:13:28.000 --> 0:13:30.319 a kick out of this this story. So I I 0:13:30.360 --> 0:13:33.840 had gone, um, I'll step back. I had started my 0:13:33.960 --> 0:13:37.520 m b A as a as a basketball player in college. 0:13:37.520 --> 0:13:39.520 So I happen to have a knee injury my junior 0:13:39.559 --> 0:13:42.080 year of college. UH. And what that allowed me to 0:13:42.080 --> 0:13:44.280 do was it allowed me to start taking grad classes 0:13:44.360 --> 0:13:47.360 my last year while I had eligibility. So I started 0:13:47.400 --> 0:13:49.680 my m b A. I had gone off and I 0:13:49.679 --> 0:13:51.640 wanted to find out if I could play professionally. So 0:13:51.679 --> 0:13:54.440 I had gone to Istanbul to Turkey. The following year, 0:13:54.480 --> 0:13:57.400 I had gone to Japan. UM. But there's a window, 0:13:57.440 --> 0:13:59.480 I think of five years to finish up your MBA 0:13:59.559 --> 0:14:01.280 once you had started it. So I decided I would 0:14:01.320 --> 0:14:03.959 go back because my caff injury, had go back and 0:14:04.000 --> 0:14:06.280 finish up my NBA at Berkeley UM. And so I 0:14:06.360 --> 0:14:09.400 did that, and uh, you know, like every athlete, I 0:14:09.440 --> 0:14:11.240 still had the bug. I thought I could still do 0:14:11.280 --> 0:14:13.960 a little something. So I end up going for my 0:14:14.040 --> 0:14:16.599 last year. I went to UH to England to Birmingham 0:14:17.240 --> 0:14:19.960 in the UK, and I was about I went for 0:14:19.960 --> 0:14:21.920 about two months and I realized that my leg was 0:14:21.960 --> 0:14:24.040 still as bad as it's ever been. I knew my 0:14:24.080 --> 0:14:27.200 career was done. I had mentally pretty much checked out. UM. 0:14:27.320 --> 0:14:31.160 I had actually interviewed with Mary lynch Um back in 0:14:31.600 --> 0:14:34.920 my time at the doing my NBA at Berkeley, and 0:14:35.000 --> 0:14:36.480 at the time they said, well, we don't have a 0:14:36.480 --> 0:14:38.120 spot for you right now, but we love to keep 0:14:38.120 --> 0:14:40.160 in touch. We think we have a spot for you. 0:14:40.800 --> 0:14:42.840 Uh So, long story short. Two months into it, I'm 0:14:42.840 --> 0:14:46.280 sitting in Birmingham, England, and my mom calls and said, 0:14:46.560 --> 0:14:49.240 a gentleman from mary Lynch just called and wanted to 0:14:49.280 --> 0:14:51.880 talk to you. So I got on the phone with 0:14:51.960 --> 0:14:53.320 him and he said, we've got a spot for you 0:14:53.360 --> 0:14:55.520 on the desk here in New York. We love to 0:14:55.560 --> 0:14:58.080 have you join. When can you start? And this was 0:14:58.120 --> 0:15:00.880 Saturday afternoon a month I see you Monday, So I 0:15:01.000 --> 0:15:04.520 basically I got. I called my brother who has had 0:15:04.560 --> 0:15:07.280 been with the Knicks, uh seven ft tall. I said, hey, Greg, 0:15:07.320 --> 0:15:09.520 I'm gonna fly in Sunday. I said, I got to 0:15:09.560 --> 0:15:11.800 borrow a suit because I don't have one. So I 0:15:11.840 --> 0:15:13.680 borrowed a suit from my brother Greg. I showed up 0:15:13.680 --> 0:15:15.800 in the office on Monday morning and that was my 0:15:15.880 --> 0:15:19.640 quote unquote transition out of athletics and into into my career. 0:15:19.720 --> 0:15:21.880 So a lot shorter than most people. How long did 0:15:21.920 --> 0:15:24.680 you work in New York for what was here? I'd 0:15:24.680 --> 0:15:27.560 say about seven years total, so about I think three 0:15:27.600 --> 0:15:30.360 and a half years with Maryland and I came back 0:15:30.400 --> 0:15:33.120 with Dementiel for another four years or so in New 0:15:33.200 --> 0:15:35.880 York and New York. We actually had an office in Stanford, Connecticut. 0:15:36.760 --> 0:15:40.520 And then when did you move to? Was the h 0:15:40.640 --> 0:15:43.040 Q and Austin back then or no, it was in 0:15:43.200 --> 0:15:47.240 Santa Monica, California. Yeah, oh really? And then now it's 0:15:47.760 --> 0:15:51.160 I believe it's Austin. And isn't there a new office 0:15:51.200 --> 0:15:53.200 opening up on the East coast. We're opening up in 0:15:53.320 --> 0:15:55.720 Charlotte in February of next year, two nights. And is 0:15:55.720 --> 0:15:58.640 that going to be the new headquarters. We'll have basically 0:15:58.720 --> 0:16:03.440 two large headquarters. So so Austin will hold people, Charlotte 0:16:03.440 --> 0:16:05.600 will hold about six or seven hundred. And we still 0:16:05.600 --> 0:16:08.200 have an office in Santa Santa Monica in California. We 0:16:08.200 --> 0:16:10.840 have about a hundred fifty people there. What was your 0:16:10.880 --> 0:16:13.360 initial role at d f A and how did this 0:16:13.480 --> 0:16:18.680 eventually become co CEO. Well, I was just a long 0:16:18.760 --> 0:16:21.360 story short as I was at uh, you know, here 0:16:21.360 --> 0:16:25.160 in New York, and I had um decided that I 0:16:25.200 --> 0:16:27.880 was going to get out of financial services. I didn't 0:16:27.880 --> 0:16:31.200 want to necessarily be in the industry. The from what 0:16:31.480 --> 0:16:33.840 I kind of I saw and I felt and I 0:16:33.840 --> 0:16:35.440 I just said I was gonna go be a teacher 0:16:35.440 --> 0:16:38.520 and a coach in California. UM, so I mentally decided 0:16:38.560 --> 0:16:41.200 I was gonna move back to California. I was sitting 0:16:41.240 --> 0:16:42.560 on the desk one day, I was reading the Wall 0:16:42.560 --> 0:16:45.040 Street Journal and I saw an ad that's aid money manager, 0:16:45.120 --> 0:16:48.360 Santa Monica, California. And I thought, you know, why not, 0:16:48.400 --> 0:16:51.080 I'll just send a resume out just in case, UM, 0:16:51.480 --> 0:16:54.880 you have one more option. And UH turned out that 0:16:54.880 --> 0:16:59.520 that Santa Monica California firm was Dimensional Fund Advisors. And 0:16:59.600 --> 0:17:03.240 so I was on a Christmas break back in four 0:17:04.119 --> 0:17:07.160 I flew out to California. I went to their offices 0:17:07.200 --> 0:17:10.120 to do an interview and I met a gentleman named 0:17:10.160 --> 0:17:14.520 Dan Wheeler. And Dan was the first UH financial advisor 0:17:14.600 --> 0:17:16.960 to use Dimensional Funds in his practice. He was an 0:17:17.000 --> 0:17:20.119 independent advisor working through Schwab at the time, and he 0:17:20.160 --> 0:17:23.080 was running the practice the business foward Dimensional UH. And 0:17:23.160 --> 0:17:25.320 Dan sent me down basically, and I had what I 0:17:25.400 --> 0:17:28.480 what we we you know, UH we call a hab 0:17:28.480 --> 0:17:31.280 moment um. He he just sat me down and said, 0:17:31.320 --> 0:17:33.760 here's how the capital markets work, here's how we think, 0:17:34.200 --> 0:17:37.080 here's what an independent advisor is here's how they act 0:17:37.119 --> 0:17:39.960 as a fiducier to the client. You know, that combination 0:17:40.000 --> 0:17:41.600 is one that we think is the right answer for 0:17:41.640 --> 0:17:44.120 the end client and one that hasn't been delivered to clients. 0:17:44.400 --> 0:17:48.480 Uh in in financial services space. And I remember I 0:17:48.480 --> 0:17:50.320 walked out of that office and I thought to myself, 0:17:50.359 --> 0:17:52.200 you know, I could, I could, I could be part 0:17:52.200 --> 0:17:54.800 of this. This is something that's really interesting and exciting 0:17:54.840 --> 0:17:58.159 to me. Uh and I Uh, I went up and 0:17:58.320 --> 0:18:01.280 had lunch that day. Martin Miller was a Nobel Prize winner. 0:18:01.760 --> 0:18:04.399 You know, Dan David Booth had another appointment to go to, 0:18:04.520 --> 0:18:08.240 so he asked Dan to take Burton Miller to lunch 0:18:08.240 --> 0:18:10.399 with him. And Dan said, sure, but I got this 0:18:10.400 --> 0:18:13.000 this new guy here, Dave Butler that, uh, we'll have 0:18:13.040 --> 0:18:15.320 to go with us. And David said that's fine. And 0:18:15.359 --> 0:18:17.800 so I sat there at lunch with Nobel Prize winner 0:18:17.880 --> 0:18:20.399 in finance, Martin Miller, and he he talked about all 0:18:20.400 --> 0:18:23.719 those really simplistic, you know, financial concepts like you know, 0:18:24.440 --> 0:18:26.960 he used to say, diversification as your buddy, you know, 0:18:27.080 --> 0:18:30.920 cost matter, you know, markets, work, prices are fishing, etcetera, etcetera. 0:18:31.440 --> 0:18:34.120 And I just had this kind of epiphany of of 0:18:34.359 --> 0:18:37.479 what I thought the capital markets could deliver and should be, 0:18:37.520 --> 0:18:39.800 and then how that coupled with the independent advice story 0:18:39.840 --> 0:18:41.440 from Dan and I thought, man, this is a place 0:18:41.440 --> 0:18:44.640 where I think I could I could spend some time fascinating. 0:18:45.200 --> 0:18:49.720 The firm manages over six hundred billion dollars. And we 0:18:49.720 --> 0:18:53.800 were talking about how you joined the firm and really 0:18:54.119 --> 0:18:57.480 sort has a very different type of firm from the 0:18:57.560 --> 0:19:01.920 bigger bulge bracket UH firms that you had been used 0:19:01.960 --> 0:19:05.640 to in New York. How did that lead to your 0:19:05.840 --> 0:19:08.639 arc of your career at Dimensional Funds? What did you 0:19:08.720 --> 0:19:12.360 start doing and where did it take you? Well? I 0:19:12.400 --> 0:19:14.600 started out as a what we call regional director, So 0:19:14.680 --> 0:19:17.560 that's a person that works with advisors, um, you know, 0:19:17.600 --> 0:19:19.800 out in the field. But you know, I think that 0:19:19.840 --> 0:19:22.560 I think the key point for me is as I 0:19:22.600 --> 0:19:25.840 mentioned earlier. We you know, on Monday morning, I walked 0:19:25.840 --> 0:19:29.600 into Demential's offices and had this interview and UH and 0:19:29.720 --> 0:19:32.119 Dan Wheeler was was terrific and he said, you know, 0:19:32.119 --> 0:19:34.439 why don't you come back the following Monday and start 0:19:35.560 --> 0:19:38.399 And you know, we didn't talk about any compensation, We 0:19:38.400 --> 0:19:40.480 didn't talk about what my title would be. We didn't 0:19:40.480 --> 0:19:43.199 talk about any detail other than the the idea that 0:19:43.280 --> 0:19:46.399 this concept, this mission, this energy that he was putting towards, 0:19:46.400 --> 0:19:49.720 this approach around clients was what he felt good about. 0:19:49.760 --> 0:19:52.040