1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:10,520 Speaker 1: Also media, Welcome to Nick. It appened here I showed 2 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:14,160 Speaker 1: that is about a number of I really should have 3 00:00:14,280 --> 00:00:16,880 Speaker 1: done an actual intro for this one. This is embarrassing 4 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:23,079 Speaker 1: heroest me along with me is Sharene and James Hello, miya. 5 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:26,160 Speaker 2: Oh yeah that was great. I thought that was actually great. 6 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:27,840 Speaker 2: Keep them guessing, you. 7 00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:29,920 Speaker 3: Know, yeah, yeah, they never know what they're going to get. 8 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:31,800 Speaker 3: Would it be sad? Would it be happy? 9 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:36,040 Speaker 1: Yeah? Unfortunately, this is a This is a this is 10 00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:38,199 Speaker 1: a really sad episode. This is an episode that I 11 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:41,640 Speaker 1: got really pissed off while writing. Yeah, and this is 12 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:45,639 Speaker 1: an episode about Palestine. Now, most of the attention on 13 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 1: Palestine right now has been focused on Gaza for you know, 14 00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:53,760 Speaker 1: very obvious reasons. Gaza is the place where you know, 15 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:56,240 Speaker 1: most of most of the Israeli offensive is happening. It's 16 00:00:56,240 --> 00:00:58,600 Speaker 1: where most of the people are. Israelis are killing the 17 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:05,160 Speaker 1: most people. But however, coma, there's also been a bunch 18 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:08,920 Speaker 1: of killing going on in the West Bank, and this 19 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 1: is you know, the the the murders of Palestinians in 20 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:15,200 Speaker 1: the West Bank is stuff that you know, it's been 21 00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:18,479 Speaker 1: intensified by the current conflict. But this is stuff that's 22 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:23,959 Speaker 1: been happening even before like this latest round of stuff started. 23 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:26,920 Speaker 1: Since the beginning of the year is raely settlers and 24 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:29,920 Speaker 1: government forces have killed several hundred Palestinians in the West Bank, 25 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:33,920 Speaker 1: and I think in a lot of ways the dynamics 26 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:37,040 Speaker 1: of the entire Israeli project are clearer in the West 27 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:39,440 Speaker 1: Bank than they are anywhere else, which is a bold statement, 28 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:43,560 Speaker 1: I will concede, But I think by the end of 29 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:44,560 Speaker 1: this we'll see if I'm right. 30 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 2: I think you're I think you're right in the sense that, 31 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:49,680 Speaker 2: like the systems of apartheid are very clear in the 32 00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:54,080 Speaker 2: West Bank versus other parts of Yeah. 33 00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 3: I mean, the violent dynamic of it's really the issreaty 34 00:01:56,160 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 3: project is pretty fucking evident. When that bombing shoulders in 35 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:00,480 Speaker 3: Gaza too, It's yeah. 36 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:03,760 Speaker 1: But I think I think specifically the part that's easiest 37 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:07,840 Speaker 1: to understand in the West Bank is why it's why 38 00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:11,800 Speaker 1: it's a mutually self reinforcing dynamic, Why why the settler 39 00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 1: project keeps like has been building the way that it has, 40 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:17,600 Speaker 1: why it keeps inevitably leading to violence the way that 41 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:20,120 Speaker 1: it has, and why it's it's, you know, effectively the 42 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:26,680 Speaker 1: sort of cyclical self reinforcing project. But to actually understand 43 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:28,600 Speaker 1: what I'm talking about, we need to go back to 44 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 1: the beginning of the Israeli occupation to understand what the 45 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:37,640 Speaker 1: occupation actually is, because I'm not actually sure, I don't know. 46 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:40,560 Speaker 1: This is something that like, I feel like most of 47 00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:42,959 Speaker 1: the people talking about this kind of just assume everyone knows, 48 00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:45,680 Speaker 1: and I feel like we should not assume that, and 49 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:47,960 Speaker 1: we should, you know, actually go back and run through 50 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:49,120 Speaker 1: some of this history really quickly. 51 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:51,919 Speaker 3: My cynical take is that mastered to people talking about 52 00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:56,040 Speaker 3: this maybe don't have the deepest understanding themselves, and that 53 00:02:56,400 --> 00:03:01,600 Speaker 3: skating along on that assumption not to have to expound. 54 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:04,120 Speaker 2: I feel like I've talked about it before on like 55 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:07,680 Speaker 2: every podcast I've done, but I feel like people like 56 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:08,880 Speaker 2: tune it out, you know what I mean. Like, I 57 00:03:08,919 --> 00:03:11,080 Speaker 2: feel like people don't actually absorb what I'm what any 58 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:13,840 Speaker 2: what they hear, because it's like, oh, this again, or 59 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:14,880 Speaker 2: whatever the fuck they're thinking. 60 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:15,200 Speaker 3: I don't know. 61 00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:18,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, So I'm gonna I'm gonna hammer I'm 62 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:20,960 Speaker 1: gonna hammer a copy of this into all of your brains. 63 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:22,400 Speaker 1: You have no choice, you must. 64 00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:26,640 Speaker 3: Martin Luthering the History of Palestine. 65 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:32,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, gonna nail ninety five copies of the Geneva Convention 66 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:38,080 Speaker 1: to the door. So in the beginning, there was the Knakba, 67 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 1: which is the great disaster of the Palestinian people, in 68 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:43,720 Speaker 1: which the Israelis armed. I should mention by Stalin, which 69 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:46,280 Speaker 1: is something that is incredibly inconvenient for everyone in the 70 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:50,000 Speaker 1: entire American political spectrum. And we will get back to 71 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:54,080 Speaker 1: who also, like who specifically was doing the knack book, 72 00:03:54,120 --> 00:04:01,520 Speaker 1: because it's not exactly who anyone really expects or portrays 73 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:04,720 Speaker 1: them as. But yeah, a bunch of a bunch of 74 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:08,920 Speaker 1: armed settlers, armed by Stalin drives seven hundred thousand Palestinians 75 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 1: from their homes. They seize those homes, they take them 76 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:16,160 Speaker 1: for themselves. Now this is I think, okay, this is 77 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:18,960 Speaker 1: this is the part where where disclaimer Miya is not 78 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:23,120 Speaker 1: it is not a professor of international law. I think 79 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:26,520 Speaker 1: this was actually technically not a legally a war crime 80 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:31,400 Speaker 1: because I only because the Fourth Geneva Convention hadn't been 81 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:35,320 Speaker 1: ratified yet, because then takes place in nineteen forty eight, 82 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:37,640 Speaker 1: and this is a year before the Geneva Convention or 83 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:40,120 Speaker 1: the fourth Geneva Convention. The part that has the stuff 84 00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:43,279 Speaker 1: we're going to talk about was ratified. It's two years 85 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:46,080 Speaker 1: before it comes into force. But you know from the 86 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:48,880 Speaker 1: beginning what you have here is a settler colony. The 87 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 1: Israelis have driven out the Palestinians who have been living there. 88 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:54,480 Speaker 1: They have seized their homes, and they have replaced them 89 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 1: with you as settlers. 90 00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:57,600 Speaker 2: They've also massacred like fifteen Yeah. 91 00:04:57,839 --> 00:05:00,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, they've killed a ton of people. Yeah, I mean, 92 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 1: I guess I should be more explicit about that. Like 93 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:06,000 Speaker 1: when I say drive out, like sometimes they were, it's 94 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:09,360 Speaker 1: just it's people fleeing a lot of times they're killed. 95 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:13,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, It's like they they flat in entire villages, you 96 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 2: know what I mean. Like it's not just like, oh 97 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:19,880 Speaker 2: they're empty houses now, it's like, no, they actually destroyed everything, 98 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:23,279 Speaker 2: built new cities where there already were cities, renamed the cities. 99 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:26,760 Speaker 3: It's yeah, it was just I don't know. It's the 100 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:30,320 Speaker 3: reason people are leaving is because they've seen their neighbors 101 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:33,200 Speaker 3: and family members killed and their fields and houses burned, 102 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:36,800 Speaker 3: and they know that that's coming for them right later. Yeah. 103 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:40,800 Speaker 2: I think this is sorry. Just one tangent is there 104 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 2: are so many videos of like former IDF soldiers that 105 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:47,240 Speaker 2: were not it's not id technically, but like former people 106 00:05:47,279 --> 00:05:49,640 Speaker 2: that fought in the Neckba that like drove these people 107 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:53,000 Speaker 2: out of their homes and it's so repulsive. There's literally 108 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:55,120 Speaker 2: like a it was on an Israeli news channel or 109 00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:58,160 Speaker 2: like some type of Israeli show where there's an old 110 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 2: man like laughing about how him and his group raped 111 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:04,360 Speaker 2: a sixteen year old girl and shot everyone in a row, 112 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:07,360 Speaker 2: all the babies, everything else. It's just like and that's 113 00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:09,719 Speaker 2: coming from them, So I think that's important to know. 114 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:11,479 Speaker 2: It's not just like us saying, oh my god, these 115 00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:13,840 Speaker 2: terrible things happen. It's like, no, they actually admitted to 116 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:18,279 Speaker 2: it multiple times. We're just telling you from you know 117 00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:20,800 Speaker 2: what I mean. I think it's important to say that. 118 00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:24,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, And this is something we're going to get into 119 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:27,440 Speaker 1: more in a bit. But one of the consequences of this, 120 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:30,240 Speaker 1: and one of the consequences of running a settler colony 121 00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 1: like this, is that the people that it produces, who 122 00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:37,360 Speaker 1: are the people who you know, the people who are 123 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:43,360 Speaker 1: like murdering people and taking their homes right in order. 124 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:45,920 Speaker 1: The kind of person you have to be in order 125 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:50,719 Speaker 1: to do that is just absolutely terrifying. Just like you know, 126 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:52,400 Speaker 1: I mean this and this is why you see so 127 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:55,680 Speaker 1: much stuff both here and you know, like back like 128 00:06:56,400 --> 00:06:59,640 Speaker 1: in in the early phases of like not even the 129 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:02,560 Speaker 1: early phase, like most of the phases of US settler expansion, right, 130 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:04,800 Speaker 1: you really account to these people, and there's like these 131 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:06,360 Speaker 1: people are all serial killers. 132 00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:09,400 Speaker 3: To do that, I think you have to convince yourself 133 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:11,320 Speaker 3: that the people you are doing it too are less 134 00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:15,720 Speaker 3: human or not human like that. It's fundamental to colonialism, 135 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:17,480 Speaker 3: right to consider yourself to either be a higher form 136 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:21,040 Speaker 3: of humanity or like distinct like in a species sense 137 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:23,840 Speaker 3: from These British people did that in their colonialism too. 138 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:28,520 Speaker 3: But yeah, you see it all the time in specifically 139 00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:31,200 Speaker 3: in like their language and culture that depicts the settler 140 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 3: colonization of the United States or what is now the 141 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:38,200 Speaker 3: United States. Right, Like you can look at the like 142 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:41,400 Speaker 3: what it's called the Indian Wars after the Civil War 143 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:44,480 Speaker 3: and see just all kinds of the most fucking horrific 144 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:47,920 Speaker 3: shit imaginable because you're you're doing a genocide. You're just 145 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:50,240 Speaker 3: doing it like piece by piece as you go across 146 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:51,320 Speaker 3: the country. 147 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, and this is one of these parts of American 148 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 1: history that people don't understand, and when you learn it, 149 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:04,120 Speaker 1: there's this real sort of even even in sort of 150 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 1: radical accounts, and I understand why they do this, but 151 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:10,560 Speaker 1: there's a tendency to not to sort of back away 152 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:14,080 Speaker 1: from exactly how violent this stuff was. And you know, 153 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:15,800 Speaker 1: a lot of the reason for this is like it's 154 00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:18,680 Speaker 1: you know, it can get into this sort of realm 155 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:23,480 Speaker 1: of like I don't know, there's almost weird like like tragedy, 156 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:26,679 Speaker 1: horror porn stuff, but like it was, it was as 157 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:31,280 Speaker 1: bad as anything that has ever happened to humans. Yeah, 158 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:33,680 Speaker 1: and then and then the people doing that stuff are 159 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:38,280 Speaker 1: you know, driven by the same kinds of of stuff 160 00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 1: that's happening here. 161 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:42,000 Speaker 3: The people doing that stuff are still like like that 162 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:45,400 Speaker 3: there's a park named after them in San Diego. There's 163 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:48,760 Speaker 3: Kick cass And Park, there's Unipo Park, like like it's 164 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:53,280 Speaker 3: baked into American culture still, like the genocide is are 165 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:54,720 Speaker 3: fucking celebrated here. 166 00:08:55,880 --> 00:08:57,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, and this is and this is this is also 167 00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:02,839 Speaker 1: true of Israel. Now, Okay, so so after the knack ball, 168 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:07,440 Speaker 1: there's a lot of people who think that like this 169 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:10,040 Speaker 1: is the end of the whole process, right that, like, okay, 170 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:13,200 Speaker 1: so we've expelled these people, We've killed these people. There's 171 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:16,840 Speaker 1: now a Jewish state, it has like relatively stable borders 172 00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:18,319 Speaker 1: or whatever. This is going to be the end of it. 173 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:22,440 Speaker 1: And that did not happen. And one of the reasons 174 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:25,400 Speaker 1: that didn't happen is the nineteen sixty seven Six Days 175 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:30,040 Speaker 1: War where Israel launches what's called a preemptive strike on Egypt. 176 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:34,679 Speaker 1: It's okay, so they this is the pr term that's 177 00:09:34,679 --> 00:09:39,440 Speaker 1: been developed afterwards for it. The reality is that Egypt 178 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:43,360 Speaker 1: was not about to attack Israel. The Israelis just started 179 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:46,400 Speaker 1: a war, like just straight up started a war and 180 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:50,120 Speaker 1: invaded Egypt, and the Sixth Day War winds up being 181 00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:56,160 Speaker 1: a war between the Israelis and so it's mostly Egypt. 182 00:09:56,160 --> 00:09:58,839 Speaker 1: They end up fighting Egypt, Syria, Jordan a little bit, 183 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:03,640 Speaker 1: and technically the Saudis like Iraq, Kuwait and Lebanon are 184 00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:06,440 Speaker 1: in the war, but like they don't do shit. There's 185 00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:08,480 Speaker 1: a story I think it's actually from the seventy three war, 186 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:11,920 Speaker 1: but there's a story of uh, there's there's there's there's 187 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:14,199 Speaker 1: bunch of people and there's a bunch of Egyptian soldiers 188 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:17,560 Speaker 1: in a bunch of trenches and a bunch of like 189 00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 1: the like Saudi command rolls up, and the Saudis roll 190 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:25,920 Speaker 1: up and fucking rolls voices, and the Egyptian commanders looks 191 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:29,080 Speaker 1: at these guys and just just go home because just 192 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:30,800 Speaker 1: like you. And then this, this is one of the 193 00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:34,520 Speaker 1: scread dynamics here of like the god like the air 194 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:40,000 Speaker 1: powers outside of Egypt for some of the time, really 195 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:43,840 Speaker 1: we're not taking this very seriously. And you know, and 196 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:47,080 Speaker 1: and and the consequence of this is that the the 197 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:49,400 Speaker 1: is the most of the most of the sixty seven 198 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:52,440 Speaker 1: war is I mean, the entirety of the sixty seven 199 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:54,560 Speaker 1: war is just the Israelis beating the absolute piss out 200 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:58,720 Speaker 1: of the Egyptians, in large part because the Egyptians weren't like, 201 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:01,480 Speaker 1: actually I had to fight a war, so they were 202 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:06,840 Speaker 1: basically completely unprepared for getting invaded by Israel. Now this 203 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:09,760 Speaker 1: is this war is a complete disaster for for the 204 00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:15,320 Speaker 1: air powers. Like gomaldel Nasser is so ashamed of his 205 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:19,360 Speaker 1: defeat that he resigns and doesn't like come back until 206 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:21,880 Speaker 1: a bunch of protests in Egypt like demand that he'd 207 00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:22,400 Speaker 1: come back. 208 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:27,240 Speaker 3: He did it really royally kind of like his position 209 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 3: was that were like eventually I going to attack us, 210 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:32,720 Speaker 3: we'll have a defensive position and failed miserably yet happy. 211 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:35,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, it did not work. This is this, This is 212 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:37,600 Speaker 1: a complete disaster. But and and and the other. You know, 213 00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:39,520 Speaker 1: the part of it that's that's most important for our 214 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:44,079 Speaker 1: story is that this is the period where the Israelis 215 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:48,360 Speaker 1: start seizing territory en mass. They take the entire Sinai 216 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:50,560 Speaker 1: Peninsula from Egypt, they take the goal ont of Heights 217 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:53,880 Speaker 1: from Syria, and most importantly for our purposes, they take 218 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:56,040 Speaker 1: both the West Bank and Gossip, which means they now 219 00:11:56,040 --> 00:12:02,240 Speaker 1: occupy all of Palestine now immediately, like effectively immediately as 220 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:05,640 Speaker 1: this is happening, one point three million Palestinians flee the 221 00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:08,280 Speaker 1: West Banking Gaza. And you know this, this has a 222 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:12,160 Speaker 1: consequence of enormously expanding the already very very large, like 223 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:16,160 Speaker 1: permanent refugee population of Palestinians in a bunch of other countries. 224 00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:19,800 Speaker 1: And this is also where we come to the focus 225 00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:25,960 Speaker 1: of today's episode, which is Israeli settlers. But do you 226 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:30,839 Speaker 1: know who else shows up uninvited and is technically illegal under. 227 00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:36,439 Speaker 3: Multiple sections of international law. Is it run Reagan? The 228 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:48,959 Speaker 3: surprise Reagan. Yeah, and we are back. 229 00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:52,840 Speaker 1: So one of the things that the Geneva Convention establishes 230 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:57,680 Speaker 1: is the set of legal obligations that occupiers have in 231 00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:00,920 Speaker 1: occupy in over territory that they occupy. So if you know, 232 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:03,400 Speaker 1: the way that's supposed to work under international law is 233 00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:08,439 Speaker 1: that you know, technically speaking, yeah, you can occupy territory, 234 00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:10,720 Speaker 1: but you're not allowed to do whatever you want with 235 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:14,200 Speaker 1: that territory. You have to actually abide by a set 236 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:17,960 Speaker 1: of laws. And this was done to you know, after 237 00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:21,960 Speaker 1: World War Two, to protect like people and occupied territories 238 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:25,719 Speaker 1: from just the unbelievable horrors that were unleashed by the 239 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:29,200 Speaker 1: Nazis in World War Two. Now, one of the things 240 00:13:29,559 --> 00:13:34,679 Speaker 1: that you cannot do if you are occupying a territory 241 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:38,560 Speaker 1: is you cannot expel civilians from their homes and replace 242 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:41,640 Speaker 1: them with your own civilians. This is this is a 243 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:44,480 Speaker 1: war crime. You are is hon an international law. You 244 00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:45,360 Speaker 1: are not allowed to do this. 245 00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:45,800 Speaker 3: Now. 246 00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:48,080 Speaker 1: I've been talking a lot about international law, and this 247 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:51,000 Speaker 1: is something where I kind of I don't know if 248 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:53,000 Speaker 1: disagree is the right word. I have very little faith 249 00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:56,560 Speaker 1: international law. I know a lot of people who are 250 00:13:56,840 --> 00:13:59,600 Speaker 1: have been involved in this, you know, like in the 251 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:02,040 Speaker 1: struggle for liberating palsigne for a very very long time, 252 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:08,079 Speaker 1: like take international law very seriously. I don't know, like. 253 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:15,240 Speaker 2: Israel has has not follow international law. Yeah, like nothing happens. 254 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:17,439 Speaker 3: Yeah, international police. 255 00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 2: It's like there's no way to it. I don't believe 256 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:22,800 Speaker 2: what it's telling me because nothing ever happens. 257 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:25,040 Speaker 3: And it has maybe it has a moral value, right, 258 00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:27,440 Speaker 3: I guess that's that's the idea behind some of the activism, 259 00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:29,840 Speaker 3: is that like it can help position something as being 260 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:33,200 Speaker 3: in the wrong and then that might help someone. But yeah, 261 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:35,960 Speaker 3: it hasn't worked. It didn't stop fucking it didn't stop 262 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:38,680 Speaker 3: the rainge of genocide in meamma. It hasn't stopped the 263 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:42,000 Speaker 3: population exchange in a free like it's pretend it doesn't 264 00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:46,120 Speaker 3: exist unless someone enforces it. Yeah, yeah, like it doesn't. 265 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:49,040 Speaker 3: It's I feel like sometimes it's a totem for like 266 00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:51,120 Speaker 3: Western liberals to be like, oh, well they brother, they 267 00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:54,160 Speaker 3: can't do that, they're breaking international law. Oh fuck, they're 268 00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:59,680 Speaker 3: doing it anyway, Like well, yeah, it's yes, and then yeah, 269 00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:03,840 Speaker 3: and like understandably, like no one particularly wants to like 270 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:07,280 Speaker 3: be the ones who enforce international law because that involves 271 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:10,920 Speaker 3: your children dying, and so they let's let other children 272 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 3: die instead. 273 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:17,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, but the consequence of this being 274 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:20,480 Speaker 1: really toothless is that, you know, it's the language of 275 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:22,360 Speaker 1: this stuff is framed. And I want to frame this 276 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:26,560 Speaker 1: like differently for a second, which is, I want I 277 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:29,840 Speaker 1: want to think about what is being prohibited here in 278 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:34,480 Speaker 1: basic moral terms, because the the what, the what this 279 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:38,760 Speaker 1: article the Geneva Convention is supposed to stop is an 280 00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:42,920 Speaker 1: army showing up killing a bunch of people and then 281 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:46,280 Speaker 1: settling their own population on top of those people's corpses. 282 00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:51,320 Speaker 1: And that is fucking horrifying. There is you know, obviously, yeah, 283 00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:53,680 Speaker 1: there's a reason why the Eneva Convention was like, holy shit, 284 00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:57,000 Speaker 1: like we can't have this. And but you know, obviously 285 00:15:57,040 --> 00:15:59,800 Speaker 1: this hasn't stopped you know this, this hasn't actually stopped 286 00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 1: this happening. Like we we now live in effectively the 287 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:05,440 Speaker 1: new Golden age of ethnic cleansing, right. I mean, the 288 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:07,760 Speaker 1: the one point you million gozens, you fled their homes 289 00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:10,200 Speaker 1: after the Israelis told them, literally told them to flee 290 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:11,880 Speaker 1: or die, which is that that's by the way, and 291 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:13,240 Speaker 1: I don't want to be very clear about this. When 292 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 1: people talk about an evacuation order, that's what that is right. 293 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:21,040 Speaker 1: You know, this is an evacuation order from like a tsunami, right, Like, 294 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:23,320 Speaker 1: It's not like there's a natural disaster coming. The thing 295 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:26,040 Speaker 1: that is happening is the Israeli government has said you 296 00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:28,440 Speaker 1: must leave now or we are going to kill you. 297 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:32,400 Speaker 1: And you know, and of course, the the other bleak 298 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:34,720 Speaker 1: side of this, right is that with the quote unquote 299 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:37,480 Speaker 1: evacuation order, the Israelis killed people who were fleeing anyways, 300 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:38,720 Speaker 1: but you know. 301 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:42,280 Speaker 3: And they had nowhere to fucking go, like they yeah, right, 302 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:43,320 Speaker 3: Like yeah. 303 00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:46,840 Speaker 2: Evacuate does make it seem like a very like humanitarian 304 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:49,720 Speaker 2: crisis when really that's all You're, right, But all they're 305 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:53,200 Speaker 2: saying is like leave now or die in the next hours, 306 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:55,920 Speaker 2: you know what I mean? Yeah, and evacuation that's like 307 00:16:56,280 --> 00:16:58,160 Speaker 2: a threat, Like it's just a death threat. 308 00:16:58,240 --> 00:16:58,640 Speaker 1: Yeah. 309 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:00,920 Speaker 3: If I was to stand as your bedroom and pull 310 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:02,680 Speaker 3: the pin on a grenade and be like, I'm giving 311 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 3: you an evacuation order. Oh and I'm gonna eat this 312 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:07,000 Speaker 3: grenade in here in five seconds, people wouldn't be like, oh, 313 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:10,240 Speaker 3: that's reasonable. Turn the doors to your house as well, 314 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 3: just for funzies. 315 00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:15,159 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, and so and so, I mean 316 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:17,320 Speaker 1: this is this is, this is what's been happening in Gaza, 317 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:19,560 Speaker 1: right you won't pat you million gozens who fled their 318 00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:22,200 Speaker 1: homes and they've joined the one hundred and twenty thousand 319 00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:24,720 Speaker 1: Armenians who were ethnically cleansed in the Garol Kara Bach 320 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:29,680 Speaker 1: by Bay Jean in September, which this is the era 321 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:32,520 Speaker 1: we are living in right now, is an unfathomable era 322 00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:35,240 Speaker 1: of violence and ethnic cleansing. Right like none of none 323 00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:40,640 Speaker 1: of the international legal frameworks like did ship none, none 324 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:42,359 Speaker 1: of none of the sort of you know, like the 325 00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:44,760 Speaker 1: none of them never again stuff like nah, you can, 326 00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:47,960 Speaker 1: you can, you can literally like you can ethnically cleanse 327 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:53,639 Speaker 1: the Armenians again and nothing will fucking happen. Yeah, we 328 00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:57,040 Speaker 1: didn't do Ship. Yeah, I mean, right right now we are. 329 00:17:57,200 --> 00:18:02,600 Speaker 1: We're averaging one one like mass scale ethnic cleansing a month, Jesus. 330 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:05,520 Speaker 1: And that is a fucking unbelievably bleak thing. 331 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:10,560 Speaker 2: And it's only done to populations that are systematically like dehumanized, 332 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:12,320 Speaker 2: you know what I mean. Like that's the thing that's like, Oh, 333 00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:14,200 Speaker 2: people are used to seeing this group of people suffer. 334 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:17,240 Speaker 2: They're used to seeing these kinds this kind of population 335 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:24,200 Speaker 2: just always die and be I don't know, bombed and stuff. 336 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:25,680 Speaker 2: So I think a lot of people just kind of 337 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:27,639 Speaker 2: gloss over it because they're just like, oh, this is 338 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:28,320 Speaker 2: what happens to. 339 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:32,720 Speaker 3: Them, and yeah, really keeps happening. Yeah, it's it's certainly 340 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:35,520 Speaker 3: like not a coincidence that, like we there have been 341 00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:38,200 Speaker 3: other ethnic cleansings right in Africa, and like I said, 342 00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:41,320 Speaker 3: they're Hinjia Muslims. But like when it happens in the 343 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:43,920 Speaker 3: Middle East or the Arab world or where we want 344 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:45,360 Speaker 3: to say it, like it's not Arab world, I guess 345 00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:48,240 Speaker 3: because it HAPs to Curdish people too, but like yeah, 346 00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:50,560 Speaker 3: people are like, oh, well, another sad thing has happened, 347 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:53,679 Speaker 3: like over there, and then it's very EASi, especially with 348 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:58,119 Speaker 3: the way American news media only focuses on these parts 349 00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:00,560 Speaker 3: of the world, like they just point it and like, oh, 350 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:03,119 Speaker 3: look sad, and then never give the context like me 351 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:05,800 Speaker 3: it was explaining, and never give the background. And then 352 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:08,879 Speaker 3: we're blindsided every two years by a fucking genocide or 353 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:11,760 Speaker 3: an ethnic cleansing or a mass amatter because we don't 354 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:14,040 Speaker 3: report on it, and then it pops up again and 355 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:18,760 Speaker 3: no one understands. And yeah, I'm very bleak on the 356 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:19,520 Speaker 3: media at the minute. 357 00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:23,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, and I mean, I think, you know, the 358 00:19:23,359 --> 00:19:27,240 Speaker 1: important context to understand here is that the absolute horror 359 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:29,640 Speaker 1: show that's happening in Gaza right now that israelis doing 360 00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:32,879 Speaker 1: this is one of the most extreme forms of it 361 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:35,720 Speaker 1: they've ever done. But this is something they've been doing 362 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:38,080 Speaker 1: from like the fucking moment they took the West Bank. 363 00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:41,800 Speaker 1: This is this is what they were doing. And again 364 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:43,280 Speaker 1: this is what never ended. 365 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:47,120 Speaker 2: Really yeah, yeah, kept going. It was like quiet mostly 366 00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:48,919 Speaker 2: for a while people ignored it, but now it's just 367 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:50,440 Speaker 2: really loud and it keeps happening though. 368 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:53,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, and you know, I think the the 369 00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:57,120 Speaker 1: oh god, what moment blank on the like continuous knock 370 00:19:57,160 --> 00:20:00,159 Speaker 1: by thing is the way that it's understood, well, is 371 00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:05,120 Speaker 1: what's called in Palestine in sort of settled colonial studies. 372 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:08,000 Speaker 1: The line that people always say is that centered colonialism 373 00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:10,560 Speaker 1: is a structure, not an event. Like I said, It's 374 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:14,119 Speaker 1: not a thing that just ends, right, it just is it. 375 00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:16,399 Speaker 1: It is that, you know, it is the air that 376 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:19,639 Speaker 1: you breathe. It's the sort of you know, like it's 377 00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:21,879 Speaker 1: it's it's, it's, it's it's it's it's the walls of 378 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:25,840 Speaker 1: the society that have been built to yeah, cage and 379 00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:32,720 Speaker 1: destroy people. Now you know, the the Israelis again, this 380 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:36,280 Speaker 1: is the thing that when when when when sixty seven happens? 381 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 1: This is actually it's kind of a turning point in 382 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:41,800 Speaker 1: the sense that like, there are groups of liberals who 383 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:44,240 Speaker 1: had supported the Israelis in forty eight who were like, 384 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:46,639 Speaker 1: whoa hold on, hold on, Like this is actually like 385 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:51,760 Speaker 1: really stunningly illegal, and this doesn't do anything. But there's 386 00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:53,440 Speaker 1: a lot of people who who make it, who make 387 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:56,720 Speaker 1: a distinction between Israel in forty eight and this Israel, 388 00:20:56,760 --> 00:20:59,960 Speaker 1: because this Israel, like the mask is off. There's no 389 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:03,639 Speaker 1: there's nothing there anymore. Right, It's just we have we 390 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:07,399 Speaker 1: have seized this land by military force, by attacking a 391 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:10,199 Speaker 1: country who we were not at war with, and we 392 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:13,600 Speaker 1: are now like systematically replacing the population of these places 393 00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:18,479 Speaker 1: with our population. And the consequence of this, this this 394 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:21,480 Speaker 1: is Israel settler population. The consequence of this is that 395 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:25,800 Speaker 1: there's now it's hard to get accurate numbers because these 396 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:30,400 Speaker 1: people in theory aren't supposed to be there, but there's 397 00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:33,440 Speaker 1: something like five hundred somewhere between four and fifty and 398 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:36,879 Speaker 1: five hundred thousand Israeli settlers in the West Bank and 399 00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:41,160 Speaker 1: another like two hundred thousand in East Jerusalem. And this 400 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:43,639 Speaker 1: means that the settler population in if you count both 401 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:46,399 Speaker 1: the West Bank and East Jerusalem, this is about seven 402 00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:50,320 Speaker 1: percent of the total population of Israel that that are 403 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:54,320 Speaker 1: now these settlers, and these settlers are I don't know. 404 00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:55,680 Speaker 1: This is this is like, I guess what you would 405 00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:59,160 Speaker 1: call Israel's colonial frontier in the sense that like, these 406 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:01,240 Speaker 1: are the people who were like on the absolute front 407 00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:04,919 Speaker 1: lines of Palestinian dispossession of like killing people taking their stuff. 408 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:08,359 Speaker 3: Settlers. It is almost a misnomer because they're not like 409 00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:11,120 Speaker 3: it's not like sometimes I think that constructs a notion 410 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:14,440 Speaker 3: of like unsettled territory and they're settling on it. Right, 411 00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:18,120 Speaker 3: these people are violently colonizing someone else's land. Yeah, which 412 00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:20,359 Speaker 3: which which was which was also true of the American 413 00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:23,320 Speaker 3: Like yes, yeah, very much. So, yeah we should write here, yeah, 414 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:26,440 Speaker 3: we should sit here, or pioneers and pioneer ship people 415 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:27,720 Speaker 3: live there for ten to thousand of v. 416 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:30,120 Speaker 1: They were pioneers. Yeah. But like the way that the 417 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:34,560 Speaker 1: state thinks about its own geography is in the terms 418 00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:37,720 Speaker 1: of these frontiers. Sometimes they call the buffer areas and 419 00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:40,480 Speaker 1: they they they think about these things as these areas 420 00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:43,359 Speaker 1: where they need you know, of of projection of military control, 421 00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:46,760 Speaker 1: the projection of sort of their their power and also 422 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:50,679 Speaker 1: sort of settler power and these kinds of you know, 423 00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:52,639 Speaker 1: and this is this is this is what what the 424 00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:55,440 Speaker 1: sort of settler populations the West Bank are the frontline 425 00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:59,960 Speaker 1: of Now. These people are subsidized by the Israeli government 426 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:01,840 Speaker 1: that if you if if you go to these places, 427 00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:06,080 Speaker 1: you get tax breaks, you get you know, they're they're there's, there's, there's, there's, 428 00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:07,560 Speaker 1: there's sort of there's a whole variety of sort of 429 00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:11,560 Speaker 1: government subsidies for these people. They also get very and 430 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:13,119 Speaker 1: this is this is the thing that I think is 431 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:16,760 Speaker 1: really interesting that isn't discussed very much. These really like 432 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:20,680 Speaker 1: social services in the West Bank are very very good. 433 00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:23,040 Speaker 1: In some cases, they're they're better than the stuff that's 434 00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:24,680 Speaker 1: in like Jerusalem or in like the other the other 435 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:27,760 Speaker 1: parts of Israel. And you know, all this and this 436 00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:30,080 Speaker 1: AXS is sort of as part of these sort of 437 00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:35,160 Speaker 1: incentive package should get people to move into these settler regions. Now, 438 00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:38,560 Speaker 1: and you know, the these these people reave other benefits too, right, 439 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:42,600 Speaker 1: They have enormous, an enormous degree of military protection. And 440 00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:43,680 Speaker 1: this is one of the things that Tree and you 441 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:46,480 Speaker 1: talked about this right if you know, if you're trying 442 00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:48,400 Speaker 1: to figure out where the fuck was the Israeli army 443 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:50,840 Speaker 1: when Maas attacked, well the answer is they were all 444 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:52,760 Speaker 1: in the fucking West Bank helping a bunch of settlers 445 00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:55,400 Speaker 1: steel land, right, which which. 446 00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:59,879 Speaker 2: Gets terrorizing Palestine. Yeah, yeah, what's happening and that happens 447 00:23:59,880 --> 00:24:02,160 Speaker 2: all the time, but just so happened to happen on 448 00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:04,880 Speaker 2: this very large scale attack yep. 449 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:10,560 Speaker 1: And the level of violence that's happening here, you know, 450 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:12,840 Speaker 1: I mean we're going to talk about the more direct 451 00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:16,840 Speaker 1: settler of violence, like these are these people they these 452 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:20,199 Speaker 1: are people who have set multiple babies on fire like 453 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:23,639 Speaker 1: that is like they they have set multiple children on fire. 454 00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:25,560 Speaker 1: This is this is this is the kind of people 455 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:28,400 Speaker 1: who you were dealing with when you're talking about especially 456 00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:32,200 Speaker 1: So okay, so there's there's a distinction inside of Israeli 457 00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:37,760 Speaker 1: law about which these settlements are legal. So again, under 458 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:40,400 Speaker 1: international law, all of these settlements are illegal. Like there's 459 00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:42,560 Speaker 1: no this is not a black it's a completely black 460 00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:45,560 Speaker 1: and white thing. Every single settlement is illegal under Israeli law. 461 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:48,080 Speaker 1: There are some settlements that they officially approve and some 462 00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:52,600 Speaker 1: of them that they don't. And so the the ones 463 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:56,600 Speaker 1: that they do approve are the ones that you know, 464 00:24:57,320 --> 00:24:59,720 Speaker 1: they those are the ones who better government services. They 465 00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:01,959 Speaker 1: get rows and put out to them. And and but 466 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:05,639 Speaker 1: there are kinds of violence here that are you know, 467 00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:08,560 Speaker 1: there's there's I guess you call it bureaucratic violence or 468 00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:11,199 Speaker 1: stuff like. You know. One of the sort of like 469 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:13,679 Speaker 1: benefits you get of living in the West Bank is 470 00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:16,720 Speaker 1: like the Israeli government has diverted basically the entire West 471 00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:19,400 Speaker 1: Bank's fucking water supply to fill these people's swimming pools. 472 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:22,720 Speaker 1: And this is water that is you know, the thing 473 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:25,320 Speaker 1: that they've been used for for a very very long 474 00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:28,879 Speaker 1: time is people in the West Bank doing agriculture. But 475 00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:30,879 Speaker 1: you know that's becoming you know, growing alves, and it's 476 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:33,920 Speaker 1: becoming increasingly fucking impossible because these Raelis are diverting their 477 00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:36,639 Speaker 1: fucking water and then also lighting and then the you know, 478 00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:40,240 Speaker 1: the the government diverts all the water away and then 479 00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:43,119 Speaker 1: the settlers light the fucking olive trees on fire. And 480 00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:44,480 Speaker 1: this is actually and this is weirdly a thing that 481 00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:47,360 Speaker 1: like almost exactly the same pattern stuff that like Turkeys 482 00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:50,280 Speaker 1: do under the Kurds too, right, Like yeah, like every 483 00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:53,320 Speaker 1: every ethnic minority like Ya and Russia. 484 00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:56,280 Speaker 3: Does it to its coming people. It's the story I 485 00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:59,320 Speaker 3: hear so often at the border when talking to people 486 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:02,360 Speaker 3: in any number of languages from any number of countries, 487 00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:04,840 Speaker 3: is like, oh, they have cut off the water supply 488 00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:06,960 Speaker 3: to where we live, and now we can't live there anymore, 489 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:12,439 Speaker 3: like across Africa, sadly, like yeah, even within Russia, like 490 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:15,760 Speaker 3: it's it's like yeah, like you say, it's genocide by 491 00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:19,320 Speaker 3: dictat or fucking you know, it's it's an ethnic cleansing 492 00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:21,000 Speaker 3: that doesn't look so bad on TV because it happens 493 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:24,520 Speaker 3: a little bit slower, but it's a way to remove people. 494 00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:27,119 Speaker 3: And you can look at like drone pictures of the 495 00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:30,080 Speaker 3: West Bank and you can see these little fucking like 496 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:33,520 Speaker 3: green lollipops like the road and then the settlement, right 497 00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:36,520 Speaker 3: and like people have trees and shit, like it's it's wild. 498 00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:42,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the unique part about Israel and the 499 00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:44,399 Speaker 2: settlers there burning all the olive trees. I feel like 500 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:46,040 Speaker 2: I didn't ever staid about this before. I don't know 501 00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:50,399 Speaker 2: if we do Yeah, but the whole essence of Zionism 502 00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:52,800 Speaker 2: is the idea that there's a group of people that 503 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:56,560 Speaker 2: are like meant for this land. And I just find 504 00:26:56,560 --> 00:26:59,280 Speaker 2: the olive tree burning the best example of how that's 505 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:01,679 Speaker 2: just like such a bullshit, because if you actually cared 506 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:05,119 Speaker 2: about this ancient land, if you had ties to this 507 00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:07,760 Speaker 2: ancient land, you wouldn't want to burn in this like 508 00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:11,680 Speaker 2: native plant that's been there for thousands of years, that's 509 00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:13,959 Speaker 2: been the source of all the economy for Palestinians, all 510 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:16,760 Speaker 2: this stuff. I think it's just the most clear example 511 00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:21,160 Speaker 2: that Zionism is not about any kind of connection at all. 512 00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:25,440 Speaker 2: It's just about power and land and not about the 513 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:27,960 Speaker 2: not land in the sense of like the architecture or 514 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:32,560 Speaker 2: the history or the nature, is just about I don't know, 515 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:35,200 Speaker 2: like a land grab, like this colonial land grab. 516 00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:37,960 Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, and I think I think, I think the 517 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:41,240 Speaker 1: fundamental thing at play here this is this is the 518 00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:44,080 Speaker 1: sort of one of the fundamental tenets of setular colonialism 519 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:47,200 Speaker 1: is that these people see land as a commodity, right, 520 00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:52,040 Speaker 1: they see they see they they only see land in 521 00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:54,360 Speaker 1: terms of things they can buy and sell on, things 522 00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:55,040 Speaker 1: they can possess. 523 00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:59,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a fundamental tenet of the state really, right, 524 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:02,560 Speaker 3: like the more like square miles you can bring under 525 00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:05,080 Speaker 3: your like where you have a melopoly and legitimate use 526 00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:08,119 Speaker 3: of violence, like the more important you are as a state, 527 00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:12,200 Speaker 3: and so like this this is a problem of states. 528 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:15,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, and we will we will get into this more 529 00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:23,840 Speaker 1: in a second, but first we need to go to ads. 530 00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:36,320 Speaker 1: So the Israeli settlers are a real problem for everyone 531 00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:43,040 Speaker 1: who supports Israel because it it is it is really 532 00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:47,720 Speaker 1: really hard to be sort of you know, take take 533 00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:52,200 Speaker 1: your sort of like liberal humanitarian stance on like Israel 534 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:54,680 Speaker 1: has the right to protect itself blah blah blah blah, 535 00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:58,520 Speaker 1: and then cure these like yahoos in the hills lighting 536 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:01,120 Speaker 1: children on fire. And you know, I mean, and this 537 00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:04,120 Speaker 1: is the thing where even even like very reliably pro 538 00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:06,280 Speaker 1: asio groups at the Council of Foreign Relations are like, 539 00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:09,360 Speaker 1: whoa nelly, these guys are messed up, and I mean, 540 00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:11,440 Speaker 1: and you can find writing for them. And they've been 541 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:13,360 Speaker 1: writing about this for a long time because this is 542 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:15,440 Speaker 1: all stuff that's been it's been very very obvious of 543 00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:18,040 Speaker 1: what was going to happen, right, like the you know, 544 00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:19,760 Speaker 1: the level of violence is going to ramp up and 545 00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:21,480 Speaker 1: that like all of the stuff, none of the stuff 546 00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:24,560 Speaker 1: is happening now. I mean like it's I guess this 547 00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:26,520 Speaker 1: is one of those things, is like everything is impossible 548 00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:30,600 Speaker 1: until it happens or whatever. But you know, all of 549 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:33,680 Speaker 1: all of the stuff that's happening is I mean, like 550 00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:36,200 Speaker 1: if you just spend any time looking at what was 551 00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:38,920 Speaker 1: happening in the two thousand and twenty tens, nothing that's 552 00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:44,160 Speaker 1: happening now is like particularly surprising. Now what what's very 553 00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:47,959 Speaker 1: interesting about the settlers though? Is that Okay, So when 554 00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:50,479 Speaker 1: when the Council of Formulations, the Council of Formulations went 555 00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:52,360 Speaker 1: in and was like, okay, so what is with these people? 556 00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:52,600 Speaker 3: Right? 557 00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:57,240 Speaker 1: They assumed initially that you know, okay, so you know 558 00:29:57,280 --> 00:30:01,040 Speaker 1: they're they're taking a sort of liberal like pro like, okay, well, 559 00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:04,440 Speaker 1: these these settlers must be responding to Palestinian violence, and no, 560 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:08,239 Speaker 1: it turns out actually not only are these are these 561 00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:12,480 Speaker 1: attacks not like retaliatory, right, It's it's it's not that 562 00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:14,760 Speaker 1: like the settler communities were being attacked by Palasinians and 563 00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:19,920 Speaker 1: they were attacking back. Settler violence is actually inversely correlated 564 00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:22,840 Speaker 1: with the level of armed struggle being carried up with Palestinians. 565 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:26,720 Speaker 1: So the era of settler violence ramp up is the 566 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:29,000 Speaker 1: late two thousands and the twenty tens. And this is 567 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:31,520 Speaker 1: the period, you know, if you know anything about like 568 00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:35,520 Speaker 1: the second in Defaundy, this is the period where like 569 00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:39,760 Speaker 1: Palaestinians doing armed struggle in like all of the different 570 00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:44,520 Speaker 1: forms is tapering off and so and this leads people 571 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:47,360 Speaker 1: kind of confused as to what the fuck is happening here, 572 00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:50,680 Speaker 1: and so, okay, so we can ask, like what is 573 00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:54,400 Speaker 1: actually driving the violence of these sort of settler expansions. 574 00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:57,680 Speaker 1: And the thing most people focus on is ideology and 575 00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:01,480 Speaker 1: to some extent, religion because huge number although it should 576 00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:05,440 Speaker 1: be mentioned. Okay, so like a lot of settlers are 577 00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:08,920 Speaker 1: what are like what are religious Zionists who are people 578 00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:10,680 Speaker 1: and a lot of these are there's like a specific 579 00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:13,040 Speaker 1: religious Zionist party that we'll talk about a bit later 580 00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:16,920 Speaker 1: who are like specifically Orthodox Jews, but like there's a 581 00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:21,000 Speaker 1: lot of right wing religious like Zionists of like various 582 00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:24,719 Speaker 1: stripes who you know, and there thing is that they 583 00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:26,560 Speaker 1: believe that they have a god given right to take 584 00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:29,200 Speaker 1: whatever land they want. And what they call quote Judea 585 00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:31,360 Speaker 1: and Samaria, which is the West bank, and they believe 586 00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:34,200 Speaker 1: that they just have the right to take this land. Yeah, 587 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:36,200 Speaker 1: and if anyone tries to stop them, they will kill 588 00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:38,920 Speaker 1: them or drive them from their homes. And it's true 589 00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:41,080 Speaker 1: that these people exist, right, and these people obviously and 590 00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:42,560 Speaker 1: we're going to get into this more in a second, 591 00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:45,040 Speaker 1: because people have had a profound influence on Israeli politics. 592 00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:49,360 Speaker 1: But on the other hands, they're not They are a 593 00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:51,920 Speaker 1: lot of the settlers, they're not the entire settler population. 594 00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:53,480 Speaker 1: In fact, there's a lot of settlers who are not 595 00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:57,400 Speaker 1: these people. And the other thing about trying to purely 596 00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:02,040 Speaker 1: explain the dynamics of violence by by ideologies, it can't 597 00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:06,560 Speaker 1: explain why really. I mean, there's a kind of like 598 00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:09,080 Speaker 1: a breakwater event where so so there used to be 599 00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:13,160 Speaker 1: settlers in Gaza too, and these Raelis pulled them out 600 00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:14,880 Speaker 1: when they pulled out of Gaza two thousand and five, 601 00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:20,360 Speaker 1: and that pissed off the settlers enormously, right, And this 602 00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:22,080 Speaker 1: is part of one of the things that leads to 603 00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:24,440 Speaker 1: the sort of settler violent turn was they were like, well, okay, 604 00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:28,480 Speaker 1: so if the Israeli government isn't going to like I 605 00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:31,560 Speaker 1: don't know if The'sraelly government one time will stop polegal 606 00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:35,160 Speaker 1: settlements from happening. We need to like make sure that 607 00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:37,440 Speaker 1: we are violence enough that they'll they'll never try to 608 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:40,600 Speaker 1: get rid of another settlement settlement again. And that kind 609 00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:44,760 Speaker 1: of explains the violence uptake, but it doesn't explain all 610 00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:48,400 Speaker 1: of it. Actually, So sorry, before I launched into this, 611 00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:51,200 Speaker 1: I should Askuary, what were you gonna say? Sorry, No, 612 00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:51,640 Speaker 1: it's okay. 613 00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:54,240 Speaker 2: I just wanted to make a really important distinction that, 614 00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:56,880 Speaker 2: like Zionism was not a religion per se, and it's 615 00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:59,600 Speaker 2: a political ideology, right, Yeah, Like you can be Christian 616 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:03,320 Speaker 2: and zion you can be Jewish and Zionists. I've had 617 00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:06,640 Speaker 2: multiple anti Zionist Jewish people on the show, and I 618 00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:09,520 Speaker 2: feel like they're very important the fight for Palicy liberation. 619 00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:12,640 Speaker 2: But I think that's a really important distinction because Zionism 620 00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:16,680 Speaker 2: is fairly new. It's not like this ancient religion. It 621 00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:20,040 Speaker 2: was like the late eighth Yeah, the late eighteen hundreds 622 00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:23,400 Speaker 2: is when it really like became formed into what it 623 00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:26,280 Speaker 2: is today. So I think that's really important to remember, 624 00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:32,080 Speaker 2: is that Zionism itself is not this like deep spiritual 625 00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:34,560 Speaker 2: thing that a lot of Zionists claim it is. It 626 00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:38,360 Speaker 2: is just fucking politics and bad politics. 627 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:40,600 Speaker 1: And I think the other important thing about it too, 628 00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:43,720 Speaker 1: and this is something that has been changing. But like Zionism, 629 00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:47,880 Speaker 1: most Zionists, like when Israel was formed, were secular, Like 630 00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:50,280 Speaker 1: they were secularist, right, A lot of these people were leftists, 631 00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:53,160 Speaker 1: they were secularists, they weren't And the emergence of this 632 00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:56,200 Speaker 1: religious Zionism stuff, this is like, this is stuff that 633 00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:59,440 Speaker 1: started happening really in like the eighties. So this is 634 00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:04,120 Speaker 1: like years old, right, Like billions of people on Earth 635 00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:07,280 Speaker 1: are older than this kind of religious Sionism. Yeah, and 636 00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:10,800 Speaker 1: so the kind of transition from more secular forms of 637 00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:14,719 Speaker 1: Zionism to more religious forms of Zionism is this is 638 00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:17,000 Speaker 1: one of the things or like like the claim that 639 00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:18,840 Speaker 1: this is the driving thing, like this is this is 640 00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:21,960 Speaker 1: what you'll get a lot from like councilor formulations people 641 00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:25,719 Speaker 1: and sort of like and it's kind of true to 642 00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:30,879 Speaker 1: some extent. But Comma, there's also something else going on here, 643 00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:35,600 Speaker 1: and that is the Israeli housing markets. So all right, 644 00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:38,359 Speaker 1: I swear, I swear this is connected, but we need 645 00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:40,720 Speaker 1: we need to do a tangent through the Israeli housing market. 646 00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:45,120 Speaker 1: So all right, so we've we've talked about how again 647 00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:48,120 Speaker 1: the rise in sellular violence is something that it's it 648 00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:51,200 Speaker 1: starts in the late two thousands and accelerates to the 649 00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:53,719 Speaker 1: twenty tens and has reached a fever pitch now with 650 00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:58,239 Speaker 1: like in the past like month, they've killed like one 651 00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:04,560 Speaker 1: hundred and thirty people in the World Bank. And Okay, 652 00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:08,400 Speaker 1: so what actually also was happening in that time And 653 00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:11,640 Speaker 1: the answer to that question is that between two thousand 654 00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:15,200 Speaker 1: and eight and twenty ten alone. And this is very 655 00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:17,680 Speaker 1: weird because again, think about the time period that we're 656 00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:20,200 Speaker 1: in this two thousand and eight to twenty ten. This 657 00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:23,320 Speaker 1: is like right after two thousand and eight financial collapse, 658 00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:26,560 Speaker 1: there is a thirty five percent increase in housing prices 659 00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:32,439 Speaker 1: in Israel. This is nuts, right, Like this everywhere else 660 00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:36,280 Speaker 1: in the entire world, Like the price of housing is tanking, 661 00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:40,560 Speaker 1: in Israel is skyrocketing. Okay, the price of housing is increasing. 662 00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:43,640 Speaker 1: The rate at which the price of housing is also increasing, 663 00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:46,400 Speaker 1: it's skyrocketing through the entire twenty tens. And then like 664 00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:48,719 Speaker 1: the rate of increase in the twenty tens looks like 665 00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:51,160 Speaker 1: a fucking joke compared to the rate of increase in 666 00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:56,200 Speaker 1: the twenty twenties. And these increases coincide with guess what, 667 00:35:56,239 --> 00:36:01,360 Speaker 1: the massive increases in cellular violence. Now this is interesting 668 00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:05,960 Speaker 1: for a number of reasons. One is that you know, 669 00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:08,840 Speaker 1: and sometimes every once in a while you will get 670 00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:12,719 Speaker 1: like someone will just like, I don't know, some like 671 00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:15,560 Speaker 1: councilor formulations. Guy will say like, well, there are settlers 672 00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:21,000 Speaker 1: who are there for economic reasons, but what actually does 673 00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:24,720 Speaker 1: that mean? Right now, I've been playing kind of fast 674 00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:28,520 Speaker 1: and loose with statistics here, right like, obviously you can't 675 00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:31,880 Speaker 1: just point to okay, one number was increasing at the 676 00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:34,520 Speaker 1: same time as an another number of correlation implies causation 677 00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:36,760 Speaker 1: like no, it doesn't right that this is too loose, 678 00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:40,919 Speaker 1: and the correlation here isn't you know, it's it's not 679 00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:46,560 Speaker 1: quite that simple. But comma, this is legitimately one of 680 00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:50,800 Speaker 1: the things that's been driving driving is is Raeli settular 681 00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:53,239 Speaker 1: violence and sort of the the expansion of this sort 682 00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:56,359 Speaker 1: of of this sort of Israeli setular project. And at 683 00:36:56,400 --> 00:37:01,360 Speaker 1: the core of this is this fundamental tension with housing 684 00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:04,400 Speaker 1: in capitalism, in which a house and also very importantly 685 00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:07,440 Speaker 1: the land that it's on, is two things at the 686 00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:10,319 Speaker 1: same time. Right the house, a house is a thing 687 00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:13,640 Speaker 1: that you live in. But it's also a speculative asset 688 00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:15,799 Speaker 1: that appreciates in value over time, or is supposed to 689 00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:17,799 Speaker 1: appreciate in value over time. And when and when, you know, 690 00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:21,160 Speaker 1: housing values don't go up, homeowners get very, very very 691 00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:24,919 Speaker 1: angry because it's also supposed to be a speculative asset. Now, 692 00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:27,440 Speaker 1: the sort of tacnical terminology for this is that a 693 00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:29,759 Speaker 1: house is a use value, which is, you know, it's 694 00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:31,960 Speaker 1: a house that you live in, right, and it also 695 00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:34,120 Speaker 1: has an exchange value, which is it is value on 696 00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:35,880 Speaker 1: the market that's a product of the sort of social 697 00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:40,319 Speaker 1: relations that form the economic system. And with housing, all 698 00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:46,480 Speaker 1: commodities work like this. With housing in particular, the two 699 00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:49,520 Speaker 1: sort of natures of this commodity work against each other. Right, 700 00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:52,439 Speaker 1: if you want a house, and you want a house 701 00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:55,680 Speaker 1: because you want to live in it, you want you know, 702 00:37:55,719 --> 00:37:57,480 Speaker 1: you want the price to be as low as possible. Right, 703 00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:01,839 Speaker 1: you want for houses to be speculative assets, like as 704 00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:04,600 Speaker 1: little as humanly possible. But on the other hand, if 705 00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:08,359 Speaker 1: you want a house because you are you know, say 706 00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:11,239 Speaker 1: a real estate firm or a land speculator, or you know, 707 00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:13,440 Speaker 1: you're just you're buying a house, is like an investment. 708 00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:15,520 Speaker 1: You want the price to be as high as possible 709 00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:17,359 Speaker 1: because it doesn't matter to you if people actually use 710 00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:20,320 Speaker 1: the house live in it. All. All that matters is 711 00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:23,560 Speaker 1: that you're getting money from this house. And you know, 712 00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:25,359 Speaker 1: I something I've talked about a lot on this show, 713 00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:28,560 Speaker 1: and since really the nineties when Japan figured this out, 714 00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:32,279 Speaker 1: housing has been like these speculative asset par ex loans. 715 00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:34,040 Speaker 1: It's the thing you dump all of your money into 716 00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:35,640 Speaker 1: when you have a bunch of money sitting around that 717 00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:41,279 Speaker 1: you can't turn into more capital. And you know this, 718 00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:44,640 Speaker 1: but the problem is that this creates these massive like 719 00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:49,520 Speaker 1: housing bubbles that makes like housing and rents increasingly unaffordable 720 00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:53,960 Speaker 1: for everyone. Now, you could address this by you know, 721 00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:56,440 Speaker 1: addressing a dual nature of the commodity and transforming your 722 00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:58,960 Speaker 1: economy into such a way that houses are not commodities 723 00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:02,200 Speaker 1: and thus you know, is a use value and is 724 00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:04,279 Speaker 1: a place to live and not you know, like a 725 00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:06,440 Speaker 1: financial asset. But nobody's gonna do that, right, because that 726 00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:10,880 Speaker 1: requires like a systemic transformation. If you're like, this requires 727 00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:15,000 Speaker 1: you to abolish capitalism, right, So instead of doing this right, 728 00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:17,719 Speaker 1: the other thing you can do when housing prices are 729 00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:19,399 Speaker 1: really high is you can go kill someone and take 730 00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:25,120 Speaker 1: their lands, and yeah, you know, and you know, I 731 00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:27,640 Speaker 1: mean this is this is a very old American sort 732 00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:29,759 Speaker 1: of colonial I don't even know, I think this is 733 00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:30,880 Speaker 1: where it's from. But like, yeah, the. 734 00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:35,840 Speaker 3: Every empire does so right, Like working people can't afford 735 00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:37,880 Speaker 3: to live with dignity, so we've fucking shipped them off, 736 00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:40,040 Speaker 3: so they strip someone else's dignity and make their fortune 737 00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:41,000 Speaker 3: on someone else's land. 738 00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:44,319 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, because the cheapest land is land that's paid 739 00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:45,360 Speaker 1: with someone else's blood. 740 00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:46,359 Speaker 3: Yeah. 741 00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:50,360 Speaker 1: Now I'm going to read from a little bit from 742 00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:53,400 Speaker 1: a very very I really recommend people actually read this 743 00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:58,239 Speaker 1: because it's a really interesting view of the occupation. I'm 744 00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:00,640 Speaker 1: gonna I'm gonna read from a piece called Hostile Intelligence 745 00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:03,000 Speaker 1: Reflections on a Visit to the West Bank, written by 746 00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:06,440 Speaker 1: David Graber. This is from twenty fifteen. But you know, 747 00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:09,960 Speaker 1: this is one of the things about about the occupation 748 00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:13,759 Speaker 1: is that if you're any given point in time, if 749 00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:16,279 Speaker 1: you are looking at what's happening in the occupation, you 750 00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:18,840 Speaker 1: can unfold the dynamics that are going to be that 751 00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:23,000 Speaker 1: are going to be the future of the occupation. So 752 00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:27,239 Speaker 1: here's David Graeber. First, the settlements. They were originally the 753 00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:30,360 Speaker 1: product of a relatively isolated, if well funded collection of 754 00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:34,000 Speaker 1: religious Zealots. Now everything seems to be organized around them. 755 00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:38,240 Speaker 1: The government pours and endless resources. Why. The answer seems 756 00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:40,560 Speaker 1: to be that, since at least the nineties, right wing 757 00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:43,200 Speaker 1: politicians in Israel have figured out the settlements are a 758 00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:46,520 Speaker 1: kind of political magic, the more money gets funneled into them, 759 00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:49,200 Speaker 1: the more the Jewish electorate turns to the right. The 760 00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:52,960 Speaker 1: reason is simple is reel as expensive. Housing inside the 761 00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:56,480 Speaker 1: nineteen forty eight boundaries is exorbitantly expensive. If you are 762 00:40:56,520 --> 00:41:00,560 Speaker 1: a young person without means, you increasingly have two options 763 00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:03,800 Speaker 1: to live with one's parents until well into your thirties, 764 00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:07,000 Speaker 1: or find a place in illegal settlements where apartments cost 765 00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:09,040 Speaker 1: perhaps a third of what they would in High Offer 766 00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:14,160 Speaker 1: or Tel Aviv. And that's not to mention the superior roads, schools, utilities, 767 00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:17,279 Speaker 1: and social services. At this point, the vast majority of 768 00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:20,640 Speaker 1: settlers live on the West Bank for economic, not ideological reasons. 769 00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:22,920 Speaker 1: And this is something that like this is actually kind 770 00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:28,200 Speaker 1: of reversing now just because of how like how far right, 771 00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:31,960 Speaker 1: and how the spread of like sort of like ideological 772 00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:34,799 Speaker 1: like right wing stuff is spread. But this is at 773 00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:37,400 Speaker 1: the time then twenty fifteen this was true. Yeah, and 774 00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:41,000 Speaker 1: this is especially true around Jerusalem. But consider who these 775 00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:45,320 Speaker 1: people are. In the past, young people in difficult circumstances, students, 776 00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:49,080 Speaker 1: well educated, young parents have been the traditional constituency of 777 00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:52,319 Speaker 1: the left. Put these same people into settlements and they 778 00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:57,400 Speaker 1: will inexorably without even realizing it, begin to think like fascists. 779 00:41:57,560 --> 00:42:00,320 Speaker 1: Settlements are, in their own way, giant and for the 780 00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:03,800 Speaker 1: production of right wing consciousness is very difficult for someone 781 00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:07,360 Speaker 1: placed in a hostile territory, given training in automatic weapons 782 00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:10,760 Speaker 1: and warn't constantly to be on one's guard against local 783 00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:13,760 Speaker 1: populations seething over the fact that your next door neighbors 784 00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:15,960 Speaker 1: have been killing their sheep and destroying their olive trees, 785 00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:20,200 Speaker 1: not to gradually see ethno nationalism as common sense. As 786 00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:24,680 Speaker 1: a result, with every election, the old left electorate further dissipates, 787 00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:27,600 Speaker 1: and a host of religious fascist or semi fascist parties. 788 00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:30,120 Speaker 1: When a larger and larger stake of the vote for 789 00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:33,560 Speaker 1: politicians who can barely think past the next election, lure 790 00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:38,680 Speaker 1: is inescapable. And so I think this gets at like 791 00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:43,680 Speaker 1: the core of what's happening specifically what's happening in the 792 00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:48,960 Speaker 1: West Bank, which is that, Yeah, these settlements are you know, 793 00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:51,440 Speaker 1: I mean, if you were trying to generate in a 794 00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:53,480 Speaker 1: lab a place where you could turn a bunch of 795 00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:56,320 Speaker 1: people into fascists, it would be it would be these settlements. 796 00:42:57,320 --> 00:42:59,440 Speaker 1: And for more on that, come back tomorrow when we 797 00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:03,560 Speaker 1: finish this. In the meantime, this has been naked apping here. 798 00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:05,720 Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, see you tomorrow. 799 00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:13,160 Speaker 2: It could happen here as a production of cool Zone Media. 800 00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:15,960 Speaker 2: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 801 00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:19,080 Speaker 2: coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 802 00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:22,480 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can 803 00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:25,200 Speaker 2: find sources for It could Happen here, updated monthly at 804 00:43:25,239 --> 00:43:28,480 Speaker 2: coolzonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening