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Speaker 1: Trust me?

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Speaker 2: Do you trust me?

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Speaker 3: Right?

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Speaker 4: Everly? And you wistor tr us.

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Speaker 1: This is the truth, the only truth.

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Speaker 4: If anybody ever tells you to just trust them, don't

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Speaker 4: welcome to trust me. The podcast about called extreme Belief

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Speaker 4: and Manipulation from two savvy Internet users who've actually experienced it.

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Speaker 5: I am Lola.

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Speaker 4: Blanc and I am Megan Elizabeth, And today our guest

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Speaker 4: is once again Renee deresta professor and author of Invisible Rulers,

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Speaker 4: The People Who Turn Lies into Reality. Last week we

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Speaker 4: talked about propaganda versus disinformation on the Internet and how

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Speaker 4: we're all living in bespoke realities. And this week we're

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Speaker 4: going to chat about what she calls pseudo events or

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Speaker 4: controversies or news stories that are entirely manufactured, How easy

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Speaker 4: it is for images and videos to be taken out

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Speaker 4: of context and feed disinformation, and why it's so difficult

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Speaker 4: to tell fact from fiction.

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Speaker 6: That's right, She'll tell us how propagandists purposely stoke real,

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Speaker 6: pre existing tensions in the countries they're targeting, how politicians

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Speaker 6: are amplifying false information instead of shutting it down, and

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Speaker 6: some possible policies that could help reduce our CULTI Social

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Speaker 6: media silos.

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Speaker 4: Before we learn so much more from Renee ar resta

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Speaker 4: about why we're all fucked on the internet began what's

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Speaker 4: your cultiest thing of the week.

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Speaker 6: So my cultiest thing is looking into this Korean religious sect.

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Speaker 6: It's called Grace Road and it's in the news a

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Speaker 6: lot lately because it's been moving over to Fiji, which

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Speaker 6: is interesting.

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Speaker 5: The leader, her name is shn.

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Speaker 6: I'm not even gonna attempt to say her last name

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Speaker 6: because I don't want to butcher it. But she did

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Speaker 6: get arrested because they take part in something called threshing

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Speaker 6: where essentially the leader would just beat the shit out

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Speaker 6: of congress and my god, and she's in jail right now.

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Speaker 6: But her son is taking over. And again I'm just

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Speaker 6: seeing reports from people in feat being like, dang, there's

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Speaker 6: a lot of South Korean people here right now. They

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Speaker 6: all seem to be pregnant because they're trying to grow

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Speaker 6: the cult by having new members, starting a lot of restaurants,

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Speaker 6: even a grocery store, which is something we see a lot,

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Speaker 6: you know, get into the food biz. So the fact

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Speaker 6: that there's even grocery stores is interesting. The old son

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Speaker 6: or daughter taking over is an effect and I can't

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Speaker 6: believe we haven't done an episode on this yet.

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Speaker 5: It's really horrible to watch.

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Speaker 6: A lot of these videos were made public of beating people.

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Speaker 5: I don't know.

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Speaker 6: It's a hard one to look at, but I'm really

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Speaker 6: curious to see what's going to happen there. And one

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Speaker 6: of the experts that's talking about it a lot, I'd

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Speaker 6: also love to have him on, but he is from

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Speaker 6: South Korea and he's just talking about how it's such

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Speaker 6: a The political disress there has made a really perfect

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Speaker 6: silo for a lot of extreme belief to start bubbling.

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Speaker 5: And then.

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Speaker 6: Some leaders are really good at using cultural Zeitgei's things

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Speaker 6: like kpop and putting it into their religions. So it's

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Speaker 6: very it's very fascinating stuff, very sad, very scary, but

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Speaker 6: I want to keep an eye on it, and I

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Speaker 6: would love to interview a survivor.

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Speaker 4: That sounds fascinating. There are so many cults in other

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Speaker 4: countries that I feel like we have to talk to

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Speaker 4: people from them because the different cultural context does make

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Speaker 4: it so interesting. I know, I can't wait to learn

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Speaker 4: more about it. I guess we'll talk about it in

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Speaker 4: a future episode. What about you, What's your cultiest thing

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Speaker 4: of the week. My cultiest thing of the week is

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Speaker 4: that I almost got scammed again, but more directly, this

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Speaker 4: time by a social media marketing guru.

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Speaker 5: Uh.

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Speaker 4: There are so many of these people online, and some

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Speaker 4: of them have legitimately useful things to say, right, and

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Speaker 4: others this man is Okay. I saw some videos from

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Speaker 4: him on like TikTok or whatever, talking about like music

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Speaker 4: promotion and a lot of the time people will have

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Speaker 4: really surface level stuff to stay and he was talking

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Speaker 4: more about like core identity stuff and like staying aligned

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Speaker 4: with who you really are and like not values. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: I mean like stuff that I care about because for me,

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Speaker 4: like just chasing the numbers it feels really like stupid

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Speaker 4: and pointless. And he's talking about stuff that appeals to me.

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Speaker 4: So you can like set up a one on one

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Speaker 4: on his website and get a consultation or whatever.

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Speaker 2: So I do the consultation. It's free, why not?

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Speaker 4: And Okay, So let me tell you this guy is

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Speaker 4: so charismatic. And he's like this guy in New York

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Speaker 4: who's I don't even know, Like he was in a band,

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Speaker 4: his boyfriend was in a band something I don't even

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Speaker 4: know anything about. This man, but like the way that

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Speaker 4: he talked, I was I felt so seen and so

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Speaker 4: heard and so understood. And he's just had this like

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Speaker 4: cadence and charisma and as he's talking, I'm like, oh,

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Speaker 4: I get it.

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Speaker 2: This is how it happened because I.

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Speaker 4: Like want to listen to whatever he says to me,

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Speaker 4: and he's asking me these like deeply personal questions for

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Speaker 4: a social media marketing call, and like some of that

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Speaker 4: stuff is necessary, but he's getting like really like, so

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Speaker 4: what is it about that? What does it make you

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Speaker 4: feel when that happens? And how do you feel about

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Speaker 4: what I'm saying to you right now? And you know,

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Speaker 4: like stuff that I'm like it is relevant, but you're

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Speaker 4: asking me a lot about my feelings and not telling

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Speaker 4: me about the price. And we talked for literally an

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Speaker 4: hour and fifteen minutes and like finally forty five minutes

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Speaker 4: in he like tells me the like logistics and cost

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Speaker 4: of the program and it turns out it's just a

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Speaker 4: pre made YouTube series like little Seminar that you pay

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Speaker 4: a fuck ton of money for and he had marketed

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Speaker 4: it as like this one on one thing, but it's

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Speaker 4: actually that there's group zoom calls and these like videos

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Speaker 4: and you're supposed to pay a lot of money for them.

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Speaker 4: And so he says this to me, and I'm like, oh, okay,

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Speaker 4: and he's like, how does that make you feel? I

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Speaker 4: can see that something blah blah blah, something didn't strike you.

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Speaker 4: And I was like, well, you know, like if I

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Speaker 4: were to spend money, like I don't have a lot

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Speaker 4: of it, and I would ideally be looking for someone

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Speaker 4: to like assess my page and like figure it out

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Speaker 4: with me, that that like stuff where you kind of

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Speaker 4: do it on your own. I've done that before. That's

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Speaker 4: not I don't necessarily need that. And he then spent

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Speaker 4: twenty minutes plus trying to convince me why my fears

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Speaker 4: were not relevant and I should spend the money on

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Speaker 4: the program. And I could see he like thought it

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Speaker 4: was like a fish that he had to like cat

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Speaker 4: f reelin yeah. And by the end of it, I

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Speaker 4: was like, oh, man, Like those first thirty minutes, I

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Speaker 4: felt so like there was this person who was just

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Speaker 4: gonna solve all my problems.

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Speaker 2: And then of course, damn it, all the feelings were there.

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Speaker 4: He like got all the feelings there, and it was

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Speaker 4: just like just wrong enough that I didn't do it.

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Speaker 5: Now, Lola, here's the plan.

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Speaker 6: They're going to make a hundred first impression setups with

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Speaker 6: charismatic leaders and get their free hour.

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Speaker 5: They're all going to sell you.

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Speaker 6: At the end, they're gonna get thirty minutes of actual

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Speaker 6: connection from all of them.

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Speaker 2: I just want someone to ask me what I'm feeling.

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Speaker 2: I'm for someone asking me what I'm feeling.

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Speaker 6: And you know what's really scary is if let's say that,

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Speaker 6: you know, I would love to speak to you more

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Speaker 6: about this, to see how ill intent this man's intent.

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Speaker 5: How ill intent this man's intent was ill.

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Speaker 6: But uh, you know, like if it was super not good,

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Speaker 6: just how much information he would have to use against

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Speaker 6: you and know what your weaknesses are and your fear points.

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Speaker 4: And oh I was really mindful of that as we

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Speaker 4: were talking, because I was like, fortunately, like this is

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Speaker 4: I wouldn't say this is all stuff I would say

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Speaker 4: on the podcast, so this is fine. But as of

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Speaker 4: we were talking, I was definitely clocking like somebody could

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Speaker 4: be sharing stuff that's like super personal yep, and he's

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Speaker 4: recording the call, and like, I don't necessarily think that

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Speaker 4: this is some evil guy. I think it's just a

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Speaker 4: classic like sales person. Yeah, like technique, but it felt

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Speaker 4: really scammy to me in the way it was set

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Speaker 4: up for it, like felt like a bait and switch.

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Speaker 4: But yeah, just like getting that glimpse into like peeop.

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Speaker 4: There are people who just have that thing and like

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Speaker 4: know how to make you feel special, and some of

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Speaker 4: them are just salespeople and some of them are worse.

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Speaker 4: So once again, if somebody makes you feel so oh

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Speaker 4: uniquely special and understood so immediately before you know each other.

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Speaker 6: At all, warning, warning, you should not have sparks with

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Speaker 6: people from the start.

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Speaker 2: Hate that. Just let movies be real.

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Speaker 5: I know, I know, no, and sometimes you can and

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Speaker 5: that's healthy. I'm just I'm just doing a little bit, y'all.

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Speaker 5: Sometimes it's real.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes, but two percent of the time.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm gonna go with that made up statistic.

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Speaker 5: I agree with it. Well, let's talk to Renee. Let's

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Speaker 5: do it.

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Speaker 4: So you've talked about this idea, the ninety nine to

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Speaker 4: one rule, So can you kind of explain what that is.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So most people on social media are like quiet lurkers.

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Speaker 1: So ninety percent of people don't post.

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Speaker 3: They just kind of take out their phone and maybe scroll,

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Speaker 3: maybe they'llhit the like button, but they're not really creating content.

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Speaker 1: Nine percent or so of people are making something.

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Speaker 3: Maybe they're contributing a little bit, maybe they're commenting, maybe

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Speaker 3: they're doing a quote retweet, maybe they're making a post

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Speaker 3: every now and then.

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Speaker 1: And then one percent.

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Speaker 3: Of people are producing an overwhelming amount of the content.

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Speaker 3: Like that is what you were seeing. It's really overwhelmingly

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Speaker 3: a very very very very tiny percentage of people who

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Speaker 3: are actually out there as content creators and out there

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Speaker 3: even on some of the most divisive platforms. Where again,

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Speaker 3: like for that majority illusion comment from earlier, you think

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Speaker 3: you're seeing the reflected opinions of the average ordinary person,

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Speaker 3: and you very much or not, you're seeing like whatever

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Speaker 3: that one percent decides they want to be talking about.

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Speaker 4: And that one percent like often will rise to the

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Speaker 4: top because what they're posting is extreme and emotional. It

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Speaker 4: is emotionally charged, and things that are emotionally charged spread faster,

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Speaker 4: so therefore we can't escape it.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, and I didn't really understand until recently, an embarrassingly recently,

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Speaker 6: how much the algorithm is so random, Like it does

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Speaker 6: feed off of divisiveness, it does feed off of emotion,

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Speaker 6: but also there, and I saw that you said in

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Speaker 6: the book there was like a hot button people at

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Speaker 6: TikTok were able to press to kind of make oh,

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Speaker 6: the heating thing, the heating thing. Someone pressed that for me, Yeah,

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Speaker 6: to like kind of make things pop off. But it

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Speaker 6: does feel as though it's like super random.

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Speaker 3: Depends on the app, right, so it don't make much

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Speaker 3: video content. It does depend on the app. There's certain

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Speaker 3: types of you know, every now and then the platforms

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Speaker 3: will push out one of these creator invitations. I don't

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Speaker 3: know if you guys have ever gotten one of these.

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Speaker 3: I got one from LinkedIn, which absolutely blew my mind.

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Speaker 3: Like a linked influencer, I always say yes when they

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Speaker 3: do these things because I'm from more from a research

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Speaker 3: standpoint than as a content creator in anyway, but just

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Speaker 3: because I'm kind of curious to see what guidelines they give.

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Speaker 3: They're doing this on threads now also like people who

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Speaker 3: want to be uniquely kind of text based creators on threads.

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Speaker 3: Sometimes they're doing bonuses for creators if you create this

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Speaker 3: many posts. You know, there's like ways that they're trying

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Speaker 3: to hook people in and draw them into the you know,

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Speaker 3: make the platform have more stuff on it that was

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Speaker 3: happening on Facebook.

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Speaker 1: Videos for a while. I'll write about that a little

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Speaker 1: bit in the book.

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Speaker 3: They were really trying to promote the watch tab as

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Speaker 3: TikTok was rising. So you'll see again the platforms are

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Speaker 3: all in competition with each other, and so they'll do

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Speaker 3: a little bit of occasionally try to like recruit certain

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Speaker 3: types of creators onto the platform to sort of boost certain.

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Speaker 1: Types of content.

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Speaker 3: But there are these things where they're trying to give

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Speaker 3: creators tips on how to succeed, and when they're doing that,

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Speaker 3: that's where you occasionally get a little bit of a

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Speaker 3: glimpse into what they're optimizing for. So on threads they'll

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Speaker 3: tell people like responding actually really matters. They want to

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Speaker 3: build up conversational dynamic so that it's not all just

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Speaker 3: people broadcasting. So they tell the creators you should really

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Speaker 3: be in the replies, you should be talking to people

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Speaker 3: like that raises your profile, not just posting, And so

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Speaker 3: you can kind of start to get a sense for.

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Speaker 1: Like what is the algorithm reward. It's not only your post.

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Speaker 3: They also don't want links, because that drives you away

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Speaker 3: from the platform if people are clicking out, and that's

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Speaker 3: why you'll see people like post the screenshot. I also

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Speaker 3: find it like a complete mystery sometimes like why did

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Speaker 3: this get a ton of views?

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Speaker 1: And that nothing?

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Speaker 3: And you know it's I think again, it gets at

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Speaker 3: these questions of like is it the right language? You know,

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Speaker 3: you'll see people who will really be in there with

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Speaker 3: a fine tooth comb, particularly on YouTube. I had a

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Speaker 3: few friends who are willing to kind of sit there

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Speaker 3: as I was doing the writing and just walk me through,

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Speaker 3: like this is how I analyze, literally like minute by minute,

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Speaker 3: the optimization functions that go into making some of these videos.

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Speaker 3: And that's where you see like for them, how much

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Speaker 3: of it is, you know, like the incentives that go

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Speaker 3: into this is the thumbnail I'm going to make, This

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Speaker 3: is the title I'm going to give it right exactly.

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Speaker 3: It's not just oh I made a video and it

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Speaker 3: hit you know yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Like as an artist, it makes me feel so depressed

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Speaker 4: because I'm like, for me, I believe, like, you know,

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Speaker 4: if it's good, it'll rise, yeah, and like art should

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Speaker 4: be something that's authentic and true to you and not

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Speaker 4: with the audience in mind. But then it's like in

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Speaker 4: today's modern world, like you're fucked if that's your approach.

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Speaker 4: But okay, I loved your section talking about pseudo events,

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Speaker 4: and I wondered if you could give us some examples

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Speaker 4: of a pseudo event and what that means.

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Speaker 3: The one thing I always think of is like Kim

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Speaker 3: Kardashian breaking the Internet, which maybe shows my age, but

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Speaker 3: you no.

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Speaker 1: So pseudo events.

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Speaker 3: That is a term from Daniel Borstein, who is a

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Speaker 3: media theorist.

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Speaker 1: And I'm trying to remember what year his book was written.

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Speaker 3: I think it was maybe the nineteen six Sometime I

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Speaker 3: will look that up and give it to you for

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Speaker 3: the show notes or something. But he writes this book

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Speaker 3: and it's an absolutely fantastic book. It's so relevant today

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Speaker 3: because he's writing, you know, again before before social media.

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Speaker 3: The pseudo event is an event that is made entirely

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Speaker 3: for media to report on it. It is a thing

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Speaker 3: that if it happened in the world, unless you notified

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Speaker 3: media about it, it would not be anything worth reporting on.

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Speaker 3: It's like the grand reopening of a store, you know,

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Speaker 3: where they'll invite media to go there for the ribbon cutting.

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Speaker 3: But that's not newsworthy. It's only newsworthy because they have

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Speaker 3: chosen to make it newsworthy. So it becomes newsworthy kind

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Speaker 3: of through the act of reporting. By having the media there,

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Speaker 3: it becomes something that, you know, it's almost like the

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Speaker 3: hype generates the newsworthiness itself. It's entirely constructed as opposed

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Speaker 3: to a real event happened that actual people should know about.

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Speaker 3: And he writes about this because it starts to happen

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Speaker 3: around the time that media, particularly tell vision becomes this

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Speaker 3: twenty four you know, it's sort of like twenty four

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Speaker 3: hour cycle, right, all of a sudden, you have to

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Speaker 3: be filling the television time. Do you ever watch something

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Speaker 3: like Election Night kind of comes to mind, But there's

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Speaker 3: other there's other moments like during the Olympics and stuff

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Speaker 3: where they'll just constantly be teasing it and teasing it

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Speaker 3: and teasing it and teasing it like nothing has happened yet.

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Speaker 3: You know, you're still just watching it, watching it and waiting,

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Speaker 3: but you know, you know that eventually maybe there'll be

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Speaker 3: a payoff. But in the meantime they're just kind of

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Speaker 3: hooking you there or otherwise, it's a really slow news

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Speaker 3: cycle that day, so you're going to be watching the

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Speaker 3: television program where it's they're really kind of scraping the

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Speaker 3: bottom of the barrel, trying to find something to tell you,

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Speaker 3: you know, to.

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Speaker 1: Tell you about.

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Speaker 3: And what's interesting on social media is you don't even

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Speaker 3: realize it, but so much of what you pay attention

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Speaker 3: to on social media is complete bullshit, right, It's just

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Speaker 3: these are things where but for the fact that you

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Speaker 3: have your phone out and there's nothing else going on

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Speaker 3: on your phone on that moment, that people are kind of,

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Speaker 3: you know, equally bored and hitting the reweet button about like,

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Speaker 3: this is not a thing that you necessarily need to

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Speaker 3: know about in the world, and there's an awful lot

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Speaker 3: of that kind of thing that that starts to happen.

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Speaker 3: And so I talked a little bit about these moments

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Speaker 3: on Twitter, where the entire internet just like erupts an

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Speaker 3: outrage at random tweets.

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Speaker 1: There was one, there was one called bean Dad.

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Speaker 3: I don't know if you guys remember, no, I was

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Speaker 3: always much more on Twitter than than Instagram. So this

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Speaker 3: is again my like my personal bias from being more

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Speaker 3: of a text based social media person. But like, this

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Speaker 3: guy wanted his daughter to figure out how to open

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Speaker 3: a can of beans with a can opener, so he

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Speaker 3: kind of posted about it.

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Speaker 1: And like the Internet.

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Speaker 3: Blew up with whether or not this was like horribly

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Speaker 3: abusive that he wasn't teaching her how.

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Speaker 7: To like operate the can opener, right, I mean this

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Speaker 7: like this was the discourse for the whole afternoon Wow.

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Speaker 3: Or there was one where there was a woman who

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Speaker 3: posted about how much she loved having coffee in the

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Speaker 3: garden with her husband, like and how they never ran out.

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Speaker 1: Of things to talk about. It's just like a really

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Speaker 1: cute you know.

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Speaker 3: She was just probably like out there, happy, glowing, sitting

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Speaker 3: with her husband having her coffee, and she posted about

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Speaker 3: how wonderful it was that she had coffee with her husband,

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Speaker 3: and like again, the whole internet.

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Speaker 1: Came for her.

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Speaker 3: It was like, you know, not everybody is as privileged

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Speaker 3: as you are. Not everybody has husbands and coffee and

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Speaker 3: time gardens, you know, and these are the kinds of

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Speaker 3: things though we're like you'd open the app sometimes you'd

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Speaker 3: be like, what are we mad about today? You know, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: you would never have known that this person existed, or

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Speaker 3: that that man was doing this with his daughter, and

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Speaker 3: that you know can't opener or any of these things.

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Speaker 1: These are not real moments.

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Speaker 3: That you should have, like raised your blood pressure over

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Speaker 3: but like, you know, the whole world was like there.

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Speaker 1: You know, and it's it's interesting because you really see it.

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Speaker 3: It brings people in and these are some of the

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Speaker 3: stupid ones, but they're also you know, there's also moments

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Speaker 3: where it leads to two people get into a fight

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Speaker 3: over a parking space, right, and then the Internet decides

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Speaker 3: to dox one of them because they feel like somebody

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Speaker 3: was you know, sexist or racist or this or that,

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Speaker 3: or they don't see, you know, they misconstrue the interaction,

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Speaker 3: or they don't misconstrue it.

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Speaker 1: Maybe the person was you know, a real jerk.

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Speaker 3: And and but there's that moment where like this would

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Speaker 3: never have been on the internet, and the question is like,

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Speaker 3: is this really the thing that we need to be

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Speaker 3: fixating on. Two people fight over a parking space and

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Speaker 3: but for the fact that someone's there with a camera phone,

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Speaker 3: you never would have known about it.

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Speaker 6: Oh and do you best believe I'm watching it? I'm

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Speaker 6: watching the whole thing.

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Speaker 4: You wrote a little bit about some other instances, including

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Speaker 4: the wayfair fake controversy, as well as like videos that

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Speaker 4: go viral that are completely taken out of context, which

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Speaker 4: is something that I just like, it makes me feel

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Speaker 4: so crazy. I encourage people, if you're looking at a

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Speaker 4: video and there is text written on it about what

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Speaker 4: is happening, to not assume that the text is accurate

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Speaker 4: for what is happening unless you literally see that exact

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Speaker 4: thing happening in the video. Just so many times things

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Speaker 4: are shared and I'm like, but why, But how do

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Speaker 4: we know that that's what this random person on Twitter

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Speaker 4: says it is?

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Speaker 2: And so much of the time it turns out not

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Speaker 2: to be.

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Speaker 1: Often often times yeah.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, And there are people who are posting this

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Speaker 4: on purpose to rage bait, to keep us divided, or

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Speaker 4: to get clicks.

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Speaker 3: Like as you were talking, I was thinking of one.

403
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Speaker 3: You know, when the ice the ice raids kind of started,

404
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Speaker 3: there was a video that went around saying that it

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Speaker 3: was ice raids up in the Bronx up in New

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Speaker 3: York City, and it had a baby being taken away

407
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Speaker 3: from a mom and the mom was being put in

408
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Speaker 3: the squad car and it was going viral and Blue

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Speaker 3: Sky somebody sent it to me and I was actually

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Speaker 3: really curious if it was AI, because that's the other component, Like,

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Speaker 3: not only is it decontextualized, sometimes but sometimes it's just

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Speaker 3: not even real now, And that was why it was

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Speaker 3: sent to me with the question like is this even real?

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Speaker 3: And I figured out it was real, right one of

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Speaker 3: the guys had a jersey on and the number of

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Speaker 3: the football player matched the number on the jersey.

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Speaker 1: AI is not that good yet.

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Speaker 3: And I sent it to a few other people who

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Speaker 3: also do the kind of work that I do, like

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Speaker 3: against like authentication or where does this come from? These

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Speaker 3: sort of like content traces, basically trying to figure out

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Speaker 3: is this you know, is this real?

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Speaker 1: Where has it come from?

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Speaker 3: And the general consensus was like this was old and decontextualized,

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Speaker 3: and we were trying to find news articles about it,

426
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Speaker 3: and eventually somebody sorted out that it was actually in

427
00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:55,200
Speaker 3: fact from like years and years ago and had been

428
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Speaker 3: like a custody dispute and that was where this that

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Speaker 3: was where this footag should come from. But these are

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Speaker 3: the sorts of things where when you just see, like

431
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Speaker 3: and the person who had posted it to Blue Sky

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Speaker 3: actually took it down. I'd sent them a message saying like,

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Speaker 3: can you tell me where you got this from?

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Speaker 6: Right?

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Speaker 3: Not in an accusatory way, you want to kind of

436
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Speaker 3: like ask that because most people don't know, right they

437
00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:16,000
Speaker 3: see something somebody sends it to them, like they really

438
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Speaker 3: genuinely believe that they're helping inform their community of something

439
00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:23,439
Speaker 3: that is really bad, Like that was clearly the intent

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00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:27,240
Speaker 3: with which this was posted. And so you know, you

441
00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:30,280
Speaker 3: try to to get a sense of like where might

442
00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:32,000
Speaker 3: they have seen it from? Did they see it on

443
00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:34,280
Speaker 3: Instagram and go and pull it or did somebody send

444
00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:34,720
Speaker 3: it to them?

445
00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:37,400
Speaker 1: So it's it's just very hard now for.

446
00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:40,680
Speaker 3: People to have any sense that what they're seeing is

447
00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:43,720
Speaker 3: real and true and real and true are not the

448
00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:46,520
Speaker 3: same thing, right, Real is did a machine make it?

449
00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:48,480
Speaker 1: Or is it actually authentic footage?

450
00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:51,240
Speaker 3: And then true is is the footage used in the

451
00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:54,080
Speaker 3: context in which the person is claiming it is? And

452
00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:56,480
Speaker 3: that's what you mean when you say, like the is

453
00:22:56,520 --> 00:23:00,480
Speaker 3: the is the text above it accurately representing what is

454
00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:01,479
Speaker 3: in the image below?

455
00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:04,240
Speaker 1: And then the third question is like do they know right?

456
00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:07,239
Speaker 3: Are they the account that's trying to be manipulative or

457
00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:09,680
Speaker 3: do they sincerely believe that what they're saying is true?

458
00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:10,080
Speaker 4: Right?

459
00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:13,120
Speaker 3: And oftentimes with that you're gauging based on like their

460
00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:16,440
Speaker 3: prior reputation and their prior actions, Like, are they somebody

461
00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:19,399
Speaker 3: who generally is like a good faith actor who tries

462
00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:21,400
Speaker 3: to be accurate and when they find out that they

463
00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:23,800
Speaker 3: haven't been, like takes it down or writes an apology

464
00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:27,080
Speaker 3: or like clearly indicates that like, whips, I got this wrong,

465
00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:29,600
Speaker 3: here's what it actually is. Or are they just like, well,

466
00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:31,680
Speaker 3: I'm going to leave that up and you know, yeah,

467
00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:35,080
Speaker 3: keep cashing in the views right right, And so that's

468
00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:37,640
Speaker 3: the that's the dynamic under which this kind of stuff

469
00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:38,520
Speaker 3: increasingly happens.

470
00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:40,520
Speaker 2: I mean, it's it's.

471
00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:44,359
Speaker 4: So frustrating because like there are genuine injustices occurring in

472
00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:48,919
Speaker 4: America and the entire world, including the massive funding of

473
00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:53,359
Speaker 4: ice and you know, like that becoming a priority in

474
00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:55,399
Speaker 4: our country over a lot of other things that are

475
00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:56,440
Speaker 4: very important.

476
00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:58,400
Speaker 2: And it just becomes so difficult.

477
00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:01,560
Speaker 4: I feel like in this era now, there's so much

478
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:06,000
Speaker 4: distrust because when there are genuine injustices happening, there are

479
00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:08,119
Speaker 4: going to be people who point to examples like that

480
00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:11,359
Speaker 4: and say, well, there's been misinformation about this, so this

481
00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:14,919
Speaker 4: must be fake. And of course then there are you know,

482
00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:19,119
Speaker 4: people trying to influence us to not fight back against

483
00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:22,439
Speaker 4: it injustice and then there are also people invested in

484
00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:26,160
Speaker 4: keeping America divided. And that's the piece that I am

485
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:29,760
Speaker 4: particularly interested in right now, is like who, who, first

486
00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:32,280
Speaker 4: of all, is invested in America being a divided country

487
00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:33,760
Speaker 4: and why what does that achieve?

488
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:35,040
Speaker 1: So sometimes it.

489
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:37,840
Speaker 3: Is state actors, you know, you do see that just

490
00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:42,120
Speaker 3: from the standpoint of anybody in a This is where

491
00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:44,720
Speaker 3: the geopolitical component comes in. You know, Russia's been doing

492
00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:49,280
Speaker 3: this for decades. It's not just recently. It's going back

493
00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:51,560
Speaker 3: to the Cold War. You start to see the dynamics

494
00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:54,920
Speaker 3: of disinformation and coming up with a story and laundering

495
00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:58,200
Speaker 3: it through sympathetic media. The idea that the CIA created

496
00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:00,560
Speaker 3: AIDS is one of these canonical examples where you take

497
00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:02,800
Speaker 3: a story and something that's likely to divide people and

498
00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:06,119
Speaker 3: you move it. At that point, it was through newspapers.

499
00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:08,919
Speaker 3: Happened very slowly, but that was you know, that was

500
00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:14,439
Speaker 3: an effort to tap into race relations, distrust, you know,

501
00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:17,679
Speaker 3: fears of AIDS at the time, Questions about was the

502
00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:19,760
Speaker 3: government lying to people about where it came from, a

503
00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:22,120
Speaker 3: lot of these different things that went into that operation.

504
00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:25,920
Speaker 3: So what you start to see is this, can you

505
00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:32,200
Speaker 3: use that real story, that real tension, that real underlying

506
00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:36,639
Speaker 3: social issue and can you just exploit it. Very little

507
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:40,680
Speaker 3: of the social division content is new, you know, They're

508
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:44,400
Speaker 3: not like creating social divisions out of whole cloth. They're

509
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:48,879
Speaker 3: using stories to exploit social divisions that are already there.

510
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:52,919
Speaker 3: That's the thing that people often misconstrue. So there is

511
00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:56,080
Speaker 3: like real issues and they're just using what they have

512
00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:58,960
Speaker 3: to weds that further apart. But then there's the things

513
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:01,600
Speaker 3: that are much more impactful, right, which is the domestic

514
00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:06,000
Speaker 3: side of this, where you do have political parties that

515
00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:08,880
Speaker 3: begin to realize that this is advantageous to them.

516
00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:11,960
Speaker 1: And there'll be a paperback version of the book.

517
00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:15,000
Speaker 3: And I was writing the epilogue and my publisher might like,

518
00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:18,640
Speaker 3: get mad. But one of the stories that I chose

519
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:21,119
Speaker 3: to include the epilogue is the story of eating the

520
00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:24,520
Speaker 3: pets during election twenty twenty four. So during the twenty

521
00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:27,879
Speaker 3: twenty four campaign, there was a moment where in a

522
00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:31,919
Speaker 3: random Facebook group catering to the community of Springfield, Ohio,

523
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:35,920
Speaker 3: a woman who sincerely believed this made a post saying,

524
00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:41,240
Speaker 3: my neighbor's friend's daughter's cat went missing, and then she

525
00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:46,280
Speaker 3: saw the neighbors across the street Haitian immigrants hanging it

526
00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:49,199
Speaker 3: up as if to skin it. Watch your pets, right,

527
00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:52,320
Speaker 3: So she talks about how her so this is a rumor, right,

528
00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:54,800
Speaker 3: my neighbor's friend's daughters, or she says it in some

529
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:57,200
Speaker 3: you know, some kind of formulation of those things.

530
00:26:57,240 --> 00:26:58,600
Speaker 1: I don't have my notes in front of me right now.

531
00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:03,639
Speaker 3: But she tells the story of a second third hand

532
00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:07,960
Speaker 3: story in which he accuses the Haitian immigrants in the

533
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:11,879
Speaker 3: community of eating this cat. And that screenshot in a

534
00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:15,679
Speaker 3: private Facebook group is taken, and then it is moved

535
00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:19,520
Speaker 3: to Twitter, where this other account says, see, they're talking

536
00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:21,720
Speaker 3: about the cats. But I told you this was happening

537
00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:23,520
Speaker 3: with the ducks, and you all laughed at me. But

538
00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:27,119
Speaker 3: it's happening with the ducks. And then this post goes everywhere.

539
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:30,520
Speaker 3: So this is a pretty standard run of the mill

540
00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:34,199
Speaker 3: rumor construct, like, oh, I heard my neighbor's friend's sister's

541
00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:36,760
Speaker 3: dog did this. You know, these kinds of ways in which,

542
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:38,560
Speaker 3: again the rumor mill that we were talking about people

543
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:41,720
Speaker 3: sharing information from person to person. They're doing it because

544
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:45,440
Speaker 3: they genuinely think they're helping their community. But what happens

545
00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:48,679
Speaker 3: next with that post is that jd Vance picks it

546
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:51,879
Speaker 3: up so as it goes viral. He's running for the

547
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:55,280
Speaker 3: vice presidency and so he's on the ticket with Donald Trump,

548
00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:59,439
Speaker 3: and he picks up that story, picks up that rumor,

549
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:04,200
Speaker 3: and he's the senator from Ohio, and he says something

550
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:07,480
Speaker 3: to the effect of, see, I've been talking about this

551
00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:11,440
Speaker 3: the people in the people of Ohio. Nobody's been listening

552
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:16,120
Speaker 3: to them. Where is our borders are? Where is Kamala Harris?

553
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:20,840
Speaker 3: So he takes the story and instead of letting it go,

554
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:24,639
Speaker 3: he takes this viral moment because this is trending on Twitter,

555
00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:27,800
Speaker 3: and he hops on the trend and this is where

556
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:30,280
Speaker 3: you see that handoff from rumor to propaganda. In my opinion,

557
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:32,280
Speaker 3: when I say these things are happening in the same place.

558
00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:35,960
Speaker 3: Now you have an incredibly powerful person with an absolutely

559
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:38,720
Speaker 3: massive following, who has the imprimature of authority.

560
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 1: This is a sitting senator running for vice president.

561
00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:43,400
Speaker 3: Instead of saying this is bullshit, he picks it up

562
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:45,720
Speaker 3: and he says, this is absolutely happening, right.

563
00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:46,920
Speaker 1: And he boosts it.

564
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:49,760
Speaker 3: And what happens next is that it leads to a

565
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:53,280
Speaker 3: two week media cycle about whether or not the Haitian

566
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:57,560
Speaker 3: immigrants in Springfield, Ohio are eating the pets so crazy,

567
00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:00,200
Speaker 3: and this is expressed in the presidential campaign. And it

568
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:03,360
Speaker 3: sounds insane to think that this is something that we

569
00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:09,360
Speaker 3: America are discussing, right, because it's racist, right, It's like

570
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:13,280
Speaker 3: it's an egregious rumor. And what makes it worse is

571
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:17,320
Speaker 3: that as the investigators, like the investigative journalists go out there,

572
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:20,760
Speaker 3: they're talking to the Republican governor of Ohio, They're talking

573
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:23,720
Speaker 3: to the Republican sheriffs, the Republican business leaders, all of

574
00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:24,960
Speaker 3: whom are saying this.

575
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:26,440
Speaker 1: Is not true.

576
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:29,640
Speaker 3: Meanwhile, bomb threats are being called into the schools, into

577
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:32,400
Speaker 3: the hospitals, like this is no longer just online, and

578
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:36,440
Speaker 3: they're not trying to diffuse it. Instead they're saying, well,

579
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:38,719
Speaker 3: the media is just not talking to the right people.

580
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:40,640
Speaker 3: The media is trying to cover this up. You know,

581
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:43,160
Speaker 3: those rhinos over there are just not telling you the truth.

582
00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:45,880
Speaker 3: And they and they keep it going. And so the

583
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:48,040
Speaker 3: story that I tell in the epilogue is like how

584
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:50,880
Speaker 3: this like basically, how this walks through This is one

585
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:54,600
Speaker 3: of many stories in the epilogue, But yes, exactly, but

586
00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:57,920
Speaker 3: I think it's really important for people to see it

587
00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:00,880
Speaker 3: as you know, it's And this is not to say

588
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:03,120
Speaker 3: that only the right does this or only the left

589
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:07,280
Speaker 3: does this, but in this particular example, rather than you know,

590
00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:10,520
Speaker 3: we used to see our political leaders being the sort

591
00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:12,720
Speaker 3: of like fire break in this stuff.

592
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:15,040
Speaker 1: Right, No, this didn't happen, like this is just.

593
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:19,480
Speaker 3: Some stuff that people online are saying. But we're not

594
00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:23,400
Speaker 3: going to give that the imperimature of the United States government.

595
00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:26,800
Speaker 3: We're not going to level that up to pretending that

596
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:30,080
Speaker 3: this is real. But instead Advance does the opposite. And

597
00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:33,120
Speaker 3: then when media finally says like, look, come on, there

598
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:35,280
Speaker 3: is no evidence that this is happening, what he says

599
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:38,120
Speaker 3: is if I have to make up stories to make

600
00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:41,880
Speaker 3: the media pay attention to what's happening in the plight

601
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:44,440
Speaker 3: of the people of Springfield who are having their resources

602
00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:46,640
Speaker 3: used by immigrants, then that's what I'm going to do.

603
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:53,480
Speaker 4: I mean, yeah, we already were living in a world

604
00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:58,280
Speaker 4: where it was difficult to discern reality from unreality, and

605
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:04,920
Speaker 4: now within administration that is systematically dismantling scientific institutions, for example,

606
00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:08,400
Speaker 4: just whatever serves their interests, like and then of course

607
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:11,160
Speaker 4: we have just our human instincts and we have the algorithms,

608
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:13,280
Speaker 4: and we have the brands, and we have and we

609
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:17,160
Speaker 4: have AI now to contend with fucking Sora, Like what

610
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:20,760
Speaker 4: how are we supposed to navigate this land that we do?

611
00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:24,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like, you know, it's.

612
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:27,000
Speaker 3: Funny because I when I when you guys reached out,

613
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:29,360
Speaker 3: I was like, oh, you know, I remember in twenty eighteen,

614
00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:32,000
Speaker 3: I think it was twenty eighteen, maybe it was a

615
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:34,400
Speaker 3: little later when I was writing this article. I was

616
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:37,840
Speaker 3: writing for Wired at the time. I actually did reach

617
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:41,800
Speaker 3: out to a psychologist who worked with people who were

618
00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:46,040
Speaker 3: leaving cults, and I asked about QAnon and I was like, look,

619
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:48,400
Speaker 3: you know, this isn't my isn't my field, right, Like

620
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:50,280
Speaker 3: I work in like data science and analysis and stuff

621
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:52,640
Speaker 3: like that, but it seems like a decentralized cult.

622
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:55,080
Speaker 1: You know, Yeah, is that the wrong read?

623
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:56,920
Speaker 3: You know, tell me, I'm tell me if I'm wrong,

624
00:31:56,920 --> 00:31:58,800
Speaker 3: And if I'm not wrong, then then you know, what

625
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:01,120
Speaker 3: is the what do you do with this?

626
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:01,360
Speaker 2: Like?

627
00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:04,680
Speaker 1: What do you do when it's this decentralized?

628
00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:09,040
Speaker 3: Because I think the difference between the old and the

629
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:13,640
Speaker 3: new is that in the old model you had that

630
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:18,360
Speaker 3: in person component right where there was like one figure

631
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:22,760
Speaker 3: and you know, there was like a you know, people

632
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:25,080
Speaker 3: were like oriented around that, whereas it seems so much

633
00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:29,600
Speaker 3: more decentralized now these different there are like cult influencers

634
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:32,280
Speaker 3: in QAnon as opposed to like one centralized figure.

635
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:33,840
Speaker 1: And so the question is what do you what do

636
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:35,680
Speaker 1: you do when that is the dynamic?

637
00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:37,800
Speaker 3: And unfortunately I have to say, like there was not

638
00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:39,160
Speaker 3: really an easy answer there.

639
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:40,160
Speaker 1: At the time.

640
00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:45,880
Speaker 3: The suggestion was, well, you try to stop social media

641
00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:50,080
Speaker 3: companies from pushing people into these groups, right, but that

642
00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:50,800
Speaker 3: doesn't really do.

643
00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:53,480
Speaker 1: Very much when it's sort of achieved critical mass and

644
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:54,480
Speaker 1: the momentum is there.

645
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:59,280
Speaker 3: And then at the time again in twenty eighteen, twenty nineteen,

646
00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:05,040
Speaker 3: it hadn't really been fully i think legitimized in quite

647
00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:07,600
Speaker 3: the way that it is now not just QAnon, but

648
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:10,880
Speaker 3: just this idea that it's normal to just tell lies

649
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:11,240
Speaker 3: like that.

650
00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:11,880
Speaker 2: Right.

651
00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:16,280
Speaker 3: So I think at this point where I've come down

652
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:20,840
Speaker 3: is you have to give somebody another story, another sense

653
00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:24,840
Speaker 3: of meaning, another sense of you know, a way to

654
00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:26,920
Speaker 3: rebuild trust. You have to you know, do all of

655
00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:29,560
Speaker 3: these different things. So how do you help that process happen?

656
00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:32,920
Speaker 3: And it has to happen on social media where people are,

657
00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:36,040
Speaker 3: so what are the ways that you do start to

658
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:40,720
Speaker 3: get you know, these folks communicating better, more accurate information

659
00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:43,280
Speaker 3: to the public. And so I spent a bunch more

660
00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:46,080
Speaker 3: time lately actually asking that question, like, what are the

661
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:48,600
Speaker 3: who are the public health influencers?

662
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:48,800
Speaker 1: You know?

663
00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:53,160
Speaker 6: Yeah, well you are one. I mean, you have done

664
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:55,640
Speaker 6: tireless work. I don't know how you managed to be

665
00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:58,280
Speaker 6: a mother and you're like And then on my free

666
00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:01,480
Speaker 6: time I was I'm like, what at what energy source

667
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:04,640
Speaker 6: are you running off of? It's incredible. We need more

668
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:04,920
Speaker 6: of that.

669
00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:06,480
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, you guys are doing a lot of

670
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:09,359
Speaker 3: it too, right, like helping tell people's stories. I think

671
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:11,680
Speaker 3: I think the storytelling component is where so many of

672
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:15,640
Speaker 3: the gaps have been. I think my frustration with the

673
00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:20,680
Speaker 3: CDC coming out of the measles situation in twenty fifteen

674
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:27,120
Speaker 3: was that they still really, sincerely, deeply believed that the

675
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:29,600
Speaker 3: public would continue to listen to them just because it

676
00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:33,040
Speaker 3: always had right, Well, we're the government, so we put

677
00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:35,080
Speaker 3: out these things, we say this stuff, and that's it.

678
00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:36,000
Speaker 1: That's where it ends.

679
00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:38,080
Speaker 3: You know, people will continue to vaccinate their kids because

680
00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:39,680
Speaker 3: they believe us, because we're the government.

681
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:42,160
Speaker 1: And when COVID started.

682
00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:44,120
Speaker 3: I thought like, man, this is going to be such

683
00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:47,879
Speaker 3: a bloodbath because now it's going to happen right now,

684
00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:51,840
Speaker 3: They're going to see just how huge that gulf actually

685
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:56,879
Speaker 3: is and just how unprepared they actually are for the

686
00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:58,720
Speaker 3: fight that is about to come.

687
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:01,399
Speaker 1: And sure enough that was what happened. And and so.

688
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:03,920
Speaker 3: I think like, I'm I look at people like doctor

689
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:06,880
Speaker 3: Mike on YouTube, right, or some of the you know,

690
00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:10,359
Speaker 3: your local epidemiologist or unbiased science or some of these

691
00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:13,560
Speaker 3: others who are out there again trying to just use

692
00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:15,520
Speaker 3: content creation and storytelling.

693
00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 1: Hank Green I think is really great at this.

694
00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:19,840
Speaker 4: Also Jessica and Nurik is that he's doing it. I

695
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:22,000
Speaker 4: love her, yeah, yeah, yes, yes.

696
00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:24,000
Speaker 3: And I think there's so many of them who are

697
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:26,040
Speaker 3: you know, some of the there's a lot of mom

698
00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:28,040
Speaker 3: influencers who are out there trying to do it now,

699
00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:31,240
Speaker 3: who are just trying to be out there as positive,

700
00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:34,960
Speaker 3: empathetic voices that recognize that the facts are not what

701
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:37,880
Speaker 3: people are looking for. They're looking for somebody to help

702
00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:40,640
Speaker 3: them understand, somebody that they feel that they can trust.

703
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:43,920
Speaker 1: And how do you communicate like that in this environment?

704
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:46,799
Speaker 1: And that's where I think I think a lot of

705
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:47,759
Speaker 1: this has to come from there at.

706
00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:51,720
Speaker 4: This point, which is so sad because it means influencers are.

707
00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:58,719
Speaker 2: Are our hope, Like, that's so depressed. I don't want that.

708
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:03,440
Speaker 4: But but like if we really have always as humans

709
00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:08,319
Speaker 4: relied on other people in our communities to interpret the

710
00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:11,280
Speaker 4: media for us, and that's how we form our opinions,

711
00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:13,520
Speaker 4: then yes, that is what we need to be doing.

712
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:18,080
Speaker 4: It's just like in this scarce attention economy where people

713
00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:21,719
Speaker 4: have like a four second attention span, I mean, it's

714
00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:23,080
Speaker 4: just really discarded.

715
00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:24,640
Speaker 6: Yeah, and I think that that thing we always come

716
00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:27,080
Speaker 6: back to with cults in general applies where it's like

717
00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:29,720
Speaker 6: are you isolated? Are you speaking to people in real life?

718
00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:32,839
Speaker 6: Are you only going to one person? Like, you know,

719
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:36,760
Speaker 6: getting out of that bubble is really important, so hopefully

720
00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:39,200
Speaker 6: people can just get the fuck offline.

721
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:42,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, you're right about that, or even the there

722
00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:43,320
Speaker 3: are a couple.

723
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:44,640
Speaker 1: Of articles that have been written about it lately.

724
00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:46,560
Speaker 3: Then I think it's really true that social media is

725
00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:49,120
Speaker 3: not really social in quite the same way anymore. Right,

726
00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:54,080
Speaker 3: it's just entertainment, right, And Sora is an interesting evolution

727
00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:59,400
Speaker 3: in this now where it's just content, it's just pure content.

728
00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:02,440
Speaker 1: It's like a study drip of content. And I feel

729
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:03,920
Speaker 1: like I only socialize.

730
00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:08,239
Speaker 3: I socialize in like group chats, Like it's yeah, yeah,

731
00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:09,759
Speaker 3: it's like people I know, like I know most of

732
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:11,279
Speaker 3: them in real life, but I talk to them in

733
00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:15,880
Speaker 3: group chats, not on Facebook. Like I don't see content

734
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:18,759
Speaker 3: from almost anybody I know on Facebook at this point,

735
00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:22,120
Speaker 3: whereas ten years ago that was how I followed weddings

736
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:23,120
Speaker 3: and birthdays and stuff.

737
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:24,520
Speaker 1: I have a private.

738
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:28,480
Speaker 3: Instagram account where I only follow and am followed by

739
00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:31,560
Speaker 3: people I know in real life, and that's where I

740
00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:34,399
Speaker 3: see like, oh cool, this is where people's Halloween pictures are.

741
00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:36,879
Speaker 3: And then I have my other, my other one where

742
00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:38,600
Speaker 3: it's right, this is the one where I'm going to

743
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:41,480
Speaker 3: follow all the people I need to understand professionally, and

744
00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:44,279
Speaker 3: that's my content account, right Yeah, but it's just a

745
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:48,239
Speaker 3: weird you know, even LinkedIn no the idea that you

746
00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:50,160
Speaker 3: know you use it to like connect with people you

747
00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:52,600
Speaker 3: might need to get a job from someday, and now

748
00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:55,399
Speaker 3: you're supposed to be out there like influencing on.

749
00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:59,200
Speaker 6: Influencing, I saw this and that was like, do people

750
00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:04,600
Speaker 6: on LinkedIn know we're gonna dice is just and Okay,

751
00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:07,399
Speaker 6: I just had this random question comes to my mind

752
00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:09,080
Speaker 6: and we can cut it out of if you don't

753
00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:12,319
Speaker 6: answer it. But like, were you ever influenced by any

754
00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:14,520
Speaker 6: of the stuff that you came across that you were like,

755
00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:16,240
Speaker 6: oh damn, that was crazy.

756
00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:17,480
Speaker 2: Maybe the Earth is flat?

757
00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:22,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, not so much, the not so much the

758
00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:23,480
Speaker 3: studio sciencetuff.

759
00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:24,920
Speaker 2: I've definitely found.

760
00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:29,840
Speaker 3: I've definitely found stuff on YouTube where I've like followed accounts,

761
00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:33,320
Speaker 3: my most my my most fun one was it pushed

762
00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:36,600
Speaker 3: me the red bull dancer style videos for like from

763
00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:38,360
Speaker 3: like worlds. I don't know if you guys know what

764
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:40,200
Speaker 3: that is, but it's like this dance competition. I was

765
00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:42,400
Speaker 3: like a street dance competition, and it pushed me this

766
00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:43,759
Speaker 3: video and I was watching them. I was like, Dan,

767
00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:45,759
Speaker 3: they look like they're having so much fun. And I

768
00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:47,480
Speaker 3: went and I found a couple more videos, and then

769
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:49,920
Speaker 3: I wound up down this like street dance rabbit hole.

770
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:51,719
Speaker 3: I used to dance when I was in college and

771
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:53,239
Speaker 3: I'm like in my forties now, and I.

772
00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:54,719
Speaker 1: Was like, oh my god, look at this.

773
00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:56,640
Speaker 3: This is so great, and then it just sent me

774
00:38:56,719 --> 00:38:59,960
Speaker 3: down this like it's like you know, rabbit hole maybe

775
00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:02,279
Speaker 3: a year and a half ago now and I was like, oh,

776
00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:03,040
Speaker 3: this is fantastic.

777
00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:05,640
Speaker 1: I have a new hobby.

778
00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:07,880
Speaker 3: So I think, like you can I mean for stuff

779
00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:10,640
Speaker 3: like that, it is like a you know, I show

780
00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:12,719
Speaker 3: it to my kids. I'm like, look at these inspirational

781
00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:16,319
Speaker 3: sixteen year olds. You know that you do this if

782
00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:20,399
Speaker 3: you practice, you know. But it's just the I think again,

783
00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:26,560
Speaker 3: there's like amazingly creative, incredible people who are producing extraordinary art,

784
00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:28,760
Speaker 3: and like, that's what I want to see and that's

785
00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:31,360
Speaker 3: what That's what this stuff was intended to be. And

786
00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:33,279
Speaker 3: I would like social to go back to being at

787
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:37,279
Speaker 3: least semi social. Same I would be happy to make

788
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:39,759
Speaker 3: new friends in a normal group. I think I just

789
00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:41,840
Speaker 3: don't know how that would happen at this point.

790
00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:45,399
Speaker 4: So, yes, we rely on people, so we do need

791
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:50,320
Speaker 4: influencers to you know, be speaking the truth. However, influencers

792
00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:54,560
Speaker 4: are dependent on algorithms which are created and you know,

793
00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:58,120
Speaker 4: designed by tech companies which are owned by billionaires. So

794
00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:02,680
Speaker 4: like on the system level, are there solutions that have

795
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:06,040
Speaker 4: been shown to be effective just briefly in terms of

796
00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:08,320
Speaker 4: like what social media companies can do or what regulation

797
00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:11,080
Speaker 4: can do governmentally, regulation.

798
00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:12,800
Speaker 1: Is tough in the United States.

799
00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:16,919
Speaker 3: I mean, the reality is, like platforms have the right

800
00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:19,680
Speaker 3: to curate how they see fit. This is something that

801
00:40:19,719 --> 00:40:23,080
Speaker 3: I think, again, you would want to see an environment where,

802
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:25,520
Speaker 3: in my opinion, there are a lot of platforms so

803
00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:28,879
Speaker 3: that users can choose among them, so that that lock

804
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:32,320
Speaker 3: in isn't quite so isn't quite so strong, so that

805
00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:34,480
Speaker 3: kind of stranglehold is released.

806
00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:36,480
Speaker 1: This is why when Blue.

807
00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:39,120
Speaker 3: Sky and Threads started, I thought, oh good, we have

808
00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:40,920
Speaker 3: a little bit more options.

809
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:42,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you can go.

810
00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:44,480
Speaker 3: And then what I love about again, what I love

811
00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:46,839
Speaker 3: about Blue Sky is the tech, Like I would love

812
00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:51,280
Speaker 3: to see that model of you know, shift your feed,

813
00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:55,440
Speaker 3: have your ability to have more agency to like, you know,

814
00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:59,399
Speaker 3: just not be so tied into what the platform wants

815
00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:02,239
Speaker 3: you to see. Like I wish that more people knew

816
00:41:02,239 --> 00:41:04,239
Speaker 3: that existed and we're using it, and i'd like to

817
00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:04,719
Speaker 3: see that.

818
00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:05,680
Speaker 1: Exist in more places.

819
00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:09,040
Speaker 3: Europe is where you're actually seeing more of that regulation

820
00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:12,320
Speaker 3: come into play. And that's because they just have different

821
00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:16,680
Speaker 3: views of the First Amendment, you know, where it's not

822
00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:20,440
Speaker 3: the content moderation piece, it's actually that even things like

823
00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:25,680
Speaker 3: transparency is considered compelled speech, so like there's certain things

824
00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:27,719
Speaker 3: that the platforms can say, like you have to make

825
00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:30,279
Speaker 3: the following disclosures, and they'll say that in Europe, where

826
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:32,879
Speaker 3: the platforms have to provide a little bit more visibility

827
00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:37,480
Speaker 3: into how algorithms work, into issus who have Yeah, so

828
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:40,719
Speaker 3: users who have their content taken down have a right

829
00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:44,719
Speaker 3: to appeal in Europe or users who have a say.

830
00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:45,680
Speaker 1: The laws in Europe are great.

831
00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:47,239
Speaker 3: You know, there's certain things I don't like about them,

832
00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:49,239
Speaker 3: but there's just a little bit of a different way

833
00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:53,319
Speaker 3: of thinking about that power and those trade offs. And

834
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:56,920
Speaker 3: I think they're also working much more on what's called interoperability,

835
00:41:57,239 --> 00:42:00,080
Speaker 3: which would let you take your data and move it

836
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:03,960
Speaker 3: somewhere so that the lock in is less strong. So

837
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:06,439
Speaker 3: a lot of the time people will say, like, well,

838
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:10,120
Speaker 3: if I leave Facebook, for example, I'm going to lose

839
00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:14,359
Speaker 3: my you know, twenty years or whatever, fifteen years of

840
00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:19,000
Speaker 3: post history, my photos, my friends, this, that, and so

841
00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:22,839
Speaker 3: some of the questions are would interoperability or data portability

842
00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:26,720
Speaker 3: make it so that that stranglehold wouldn't be so tight,

843
00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:28,839
Speaker 3: which maybe would make the platform a little bit more

844
00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:33,120
Speaker 3: willing to do some more experimentation around things like custom

845
00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:35,480
Speaker 3: feeds and stuff like that, so that's something that you're

846
00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:38,759
Speaker 3: starting to see regulators in Europe looking at. They're also

847
00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:42,120
Speaker 3: looking more at like business model and other kinds of

848
00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:45,239
Speaker 3: other changes over there. So in the US, I think

849
00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:49,880
Speaker 3: it's just really hard to get anything done. This is

850
00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:53,560
Speaker 3: partly just because the polarization here means that the Democrats

851
00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:55,719
Speaker 3: and the Republicans just have very different visions for what

852
00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:58,400
Speaker 3: social media should be, and that leads to a lot

853
00:42:58,440 --> 00:43:01,080
Speaker 3: of tension around what they consider a propriate for governing it.

854
00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:05,799
Speaker 4: Also, corporations are allowed to lobby, and those are the

855
00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:09,640
Speaker 4: ones that are but they're basically making the art decisions

856
00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:09,960
Speaker 4: for us.

857
00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:13,200
Speaker 3: I'll make one other point, which is that the sec

858
00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:19,200
Speaker 3: right Federal Election Commission, the politicians themselves have not wanted

859
00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:22,880
Speaker 3: to pass laws saying that like if an influencer is

860
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:27,879
Speaker 3: being paid to promote a candidate, you know, right, things

861
00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:28,799
Speaker 3: that like they have.

862
00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:31,520
Speaker 1: To disclose to you when they're promoting shoes.

863
00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:33,840
Speaker 3: Right, they don't, you know, but there's like certain political

864
00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:37,160
Speaker 3: communications where that just you know, don't tell, right, And

865
00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:42,120
Speaker 3: so yeah, so I think that there's just different different

866
00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:46,640
Speaker 3: ways in which, you know, transparency laws here are really abysmal,

867
00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:49,319
Speaker 3: and even that I think would shift the incentives if

868
00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:52,640
Speaker 3: the influencers had to make clear just how much money

869
00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:56,200
Speaker 3: they were receiving in their in their political endeavors.

870
00:43:56,480 --> 00:43:58,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, if someone is being paid by a government to

871
00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:02,239
Speaker 4: make a video about a candidate or an issue, I

872
00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:04,919
Speaker 4: want to know who is paying them like that, because

873
00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:07,640
Speaker 4: that will inform whether or not I take that content seriously.

874
00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:09,040
Speaker 2: I think that's incredibly important.

875
00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:14,880
Speaker 4: Okay, Well, anyway, do you have any final thoughts on propaganda,

876
00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:18,719
Speaker 4: disinformation and or how we are all living in our

877
00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:21,160
Speaker 4: own individualized algorithmic cults.

878
00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:22,640
Speaker 2: No, I think I.

879
00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:24,879
Speaker 3: Really admire what you guys are doing, and I've really

880
00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:26,520
Speaker 3: enjoyed listening to your content on this.

881
00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:30,040
Speaker 1: I think there's so much fascinating stuff.

882
00:44:30,080 --> 00:44:34,359
Speaker 3: There's a there's a book called When Prophecy Failed that

883
00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:37,080
Speaker 3: I that I read back in the day when I

884
00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:41,320
Speaker 3: started the research, just on this idea that it's a

885
00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:43,600
Speaker 3: book about cults. It's a cult study in academia from

886
00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:44,880
Speaker 3: couple gosh, I.

887
00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:47,080
Speaker 1: Think the nineteen forties.

888
00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:49,439
Speaker 3: Also, I think I was from around the same time

889
00:44:49,560 --> 00:44:53,640
Speaker 3: as the uh that study nineteen fifties, nineteen fifties, and

890
00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:55,400
Speaker 3: it was interesting. It's one of these ones where, like

891
00:44:55,480 --> 00:44:56,880
Speaker 3: you know, the aliens are going to come as a

892
00:44:56,920 --> 00:44:59,000
Speaker 3: doomsday cult, and then the aliens don't come, and then

893
00:44:59,040 --> 00:44:59,720
Speaker 3: they just shift.

894
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:01,200
Speaker 2: Oh we got the math wrong.

895
00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:04,440
Speaker 1: The aliens are coming. Oh you know yeah.

896
00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:06,959
Speaker 3: And what was U was fascinating to me as I

897
00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:09,080
Speaker 3: as I read that study was you just see this

898
00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:13,560
Speaker 3: like the deep, the deep, unwavering trust that just persists.

899
00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:15,160
Speaker 2: And this is.

900
00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:19,360
Speaker 3: Something that I think watching that dynamic play out in

901
00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:22,040
Speaker 3: some of the guru style influencers is something that I

902
00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:25,040
Speaker 3: really admire. You know, your ability to kind of connect

903
00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:27,560
Speaker 3: the dots for people there, and so thanks for all

904
00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:28,319
Speaker 3: the work that you're doing.

905
00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:31,480
Speaker 2: Thank you, Thank you. Where do people find you?

906
00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:33,960
Speaker 7: So?

907
00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:36,960
Speaker 3: Renee arrested dot com has all the various book links

908
00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:41,839
Speaker 3: and stuff, and then I am mostly threads, Instagram, Blue

909
00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:45,680
Speaker 3: Sky and uh yeah, Renee dot Doresta or at no

910
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:47,920
Speaker 3: Upside is my old Twitter handle, which I still use

911
00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:48,680
Speaker 3: on some platforms.

912
00:45:48,719 --> 00:45:52,640
Speaker 2: Too awesome. Thank you so much for joining us today.

913
00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:53,680
Speaker 1: Thanks for having me.

914
00:45:54,080 --> 00:45:58,920
Speaker 6: Yeah, Lola, I'm going to ask you a question today

915
00:45:59,120 --> 00:46:01,440
Speaker 6: after too of Renee.

916
00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:02,440
Speaker 5: Are you prepared?

917
00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:04,080
Speaker 2: I'm prepared?

918
00:46:04,719 --> 00:46:06,080
Speaker 5: Have you ever fell victim?

919
00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:10,480
Speaker 6: Have you ever fell a skew of some misinformation yourself?

920
00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:14,920
Speaker 6: I love these made up phrases saying everything but what

921
00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:15,520
Speaker 6: I'm trying.

922
00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:19,200
Speaker 2: Of course we all have.

923
00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:23,919
Speaker 4: I mean, I don't think that I necessarily can think

924
00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:28,160
Speaker 4: of example, like big, dramatic, concrete examples off the top

925
00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:31,839
Speaker 4: of my head. But I have so many times been

926
00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:34,800
Speaker 4: on social media and seen a video or a photo

927
00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:40,480
Speaker 4: or a tweet or whatever and been like, what, that's crazy, Yeah,

928
00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:43,839
Speaker 4: and then later either decided to google it or often

929
00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:46,279
Speaker 4: in the moment, now I just searched things right away,

930
00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:49,239
Speaker 4: but later found out that it was just completely made up,

931
00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:52,400
Speaker 4: or it was completely taken out of context, or you know,

932
00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:55,840
Speaker 4: it was like partially true or like representative of a

933
00:46:55,880 --> 00:46:57,799
Speaker 4: thing that was happening, but not a video from that

934
00:46:57,960 --> 00:46:59,280
Speaker 4: actual time.

935
00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:03,520
Speaker 6: You know, partial truths are the most dangerous thing. Yeah,

936
00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:06,879
Speaker 6: why can't people go back to just completely lying? Yeah,

937
00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:10,120
Speaker 6: just either make something up completely or tell the truth.

938
00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:13,120
Speaker 6: Then we might have some reference to be like that's

939
00:47:13,120 --> 00:47:16,279
Speaker 6: not true. But when I hold some truth, you're really

940
00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:19,000
Speaker 6: making us do a lot of legwork as human beings.

941
00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:22,319
Speaker 4: It's confusing, and we, like most of us, don't have

942
00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:26,080
Speaker 4: the time to take on that cognitive burden to like

943
00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:30,839
Speaker 4: fact check everything, And that is why I do think

944
00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:34,400
Speaker 4: we should be holding these platforms more accountable for letting

945
00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:36,920
Speaker 4: that stuff spread so much, and they are, and like,

946
00:47:37,080 --> 00:47:39,479
Speaker 4: in fairness, there are some efforts that have been made

947
00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:41,520
Speaker 4: and I you know, and we talk a little bit

948
00:47:41,520 --> 00:47:45,960
Speaker 4: about that, but more good efforts, more good efforts, and laws,

949
00:47:46,719 --> 00:47:47,480
Speaker 4: more laws.

950
00:47:47,600 --> 00:47:49,640
Speaker 2: I think more laws is the is the big one.

951
00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:51,280
Speaker 5: Absolutely yeah.

952
00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:53,560
Speaker 4: But anyway, now I'm at a point where I, like,

953
00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:57,680
Speaker 4: I trust so little that if I see a like

954
00:47:57,719 --> 00:48:01,000
Speaker 4: a news story or a news meme or something, if

955
00:48:01,040 --> 00:48:04,239
Speaker 4: it makes me feel strong feelings, the first thing I

956
00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:06,040
Speaker 4: do is look it up and make sure because so

957
00:48:06,200 --> 00:48:10,040
Speaker 4: many times it's you know, like mostly just honest mistakes

958
00:48:10,040 --> 00:48:12,560
Speaker 4: from people sharing things that they think are really you know,

959
00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:17,800
Speaker 4: like I'm so afraid to share something that is not accurate,

960
00:48:18,120 --> 00:48:20,040
Speaker 4: even though it's bound to happen every now and then,

961
00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:21,719
Speaker 4: you know, while.

962
00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:24,879
Speaker 6: Renee is doing important work. We're so grateful she came

963
00:48:24,920 --> 00:48:28,680
Speaker 6: back for part two. As always, remember to go rate

964
00:48:28,760 --> 00:48:31,520
Speaker 6: us five stars if you have it within you. Also,

965
00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:35,920
Speaker 6: we have merch out now, so go to exactly rightstore

966
00:48:36,040 --> 00:48:39,080
Speaker 6: dot com and pick them up for Christmas.

967
00:48:38,520 --> 00:48:40,640
Speaker 5: Hats, t shirts, what have you.

968
00:48:41,080 --> 00:48:43,640
Speaker 6: Hell yeah, well, there goes another week We'll see you

969
00:48:43,640 --> 00:48:46,319
Speaker 6: next time. Remember to follow your gut, watch out for

970
00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:47,960
Speaker 6: red flats, and never.

971
00:48:48,040 --> 00:48:50,560
Speaker 2: Ever trust me. By bye.

972
00:48:53,320 --> 00:48:55,880
Speaker 4: This has been an exactly right production hosted by me

973
00:48:56,080 --> 00:48:56,440
Speaker 4: Lo La.

974
00:48:56,400 --> 00:48:59,839
Speaker 6: Blanc and me Megan Elizabeth. Our senior producer is Gee.

975
00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:02,400
Speaker 2: This episode was mixed by John Bradley.

976
00:49:02,560 --> 00:49:05,840
Speaker 6: Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain, and our guest booker

977
00:49:05,960 --> 00:49:07,000
Speaker 6: is Patrick Kottner.

978
00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:09,680
Speaker 2: Our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

979
00:49:09,960 --> 00:49:14,000
Speaker 6: Trust Me as executive produced by Karen Kilgareth Georgia Hardstark

980
00:49:14,080 --> 00:49:15,040
Speaker 6: and Daniel Kramer.

981
00:49:15,239 --> 00:49:17,560
Speaker 4: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me podcast

982
00:49:17,719 --> 00:49:19,840
Speaker 4: or on TikTok at trust Me coult podcast.

983
00:49:20,160 --> 00:49:23,239
Speaker 6: Got your own story about cults, extreme belief, our manipulation,

984
00:49:23,600 --> 00:49:26,600
Speaker 6: Shoot us an email at trustmepod at gmail dot com.

985
00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:29,600
Speaker 4: Listen to trust Me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

986
00:49:29,680 --> 00:49:31,279
Speaker 4: or wherever you get your podcasts