1 00:00:00,680 --> 00:00:05,320 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised. 2 00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:15,640 Speaker 2: Tony kept a manual for taxidermy in his back pocket, 3 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:19,920 Speaker 2: and it was really his guidebook on how to commit murder. 4 00:00:19,960 --> 00:00:24,000 Speaker 2: He didn't look at women as human beings. He looked 5 00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:29,080 Speaker 2: at women as pray. 6 00:00:31,960 --> 00:00:35,919 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 7 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:38,960 Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical 8 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:42,320 Speaker 1: true crime podcast tenfold More Wicked and the co host 9 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:46,280 Speaker 1: of the podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right. I've traveled 10 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:49,279 Speaker 1: around the world interviewing people for the show, and they 11 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:52,760 Speaker 1: are all excellent writers. They've had so many great true 12 00:00:52,760 --> 00:00:55,440 Speaker 1: crime stories, and now we want to tell you those 13 00:00:55,480 --> 00:00:59,040 Speaker 1: stories with details that have never been published. Tenfold More 14 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:03,040 Speaker 1: Wicked presents Wicked Words is about the choices that writers make, 15 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:06,759 Speaker 1: good and bad. It's a deep dive into the stories 16 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:12,120 Speaker 1: behind the stories. In the late sixties, a serial killer 17 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:15,520 Speaker 1: stalked women in New England. His name was Tony Costa. 18 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:18,680 Speaker 1: He was unusual because he spent a lot of time 19 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:21,760 Speaker 1: drawing in his victims. We've heard this story from a 20 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:25,640 Speaker 1: woman who cost A babysat, but this is a different account. 21 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:30,200 Speaker 1: Journalist Casey Sherman tells me the story from his book Helltown, 22 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:34,120 Speaker 1: The Untold Story of a serial Killer on Cape cod. 23 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:36,480 Speaker 2: Well. 24 00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:39,039 Speaker 1: Let's talk about this book. Is it different than the 25 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:41,360 Speaker 1: other books that you've done? How does it stand out 26 00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:41,800 Speaker 1: to you? 27 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:45,399 Speaker 2: This book is much different from anything else that I've 28 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:49,520 Speaker 2: ever done. And I was really inspired when I wrote 29 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:52,720 Speaker 2: this book by two of the characters that I write about, 30 00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:57,280 Speaker 2: Kurt Vonnegut and Norman Mailer. Now, these are writers that 31 00:01:57,400 --> 00:02:01,800 Speaker 2: really explored in pioneered new journalism back in the late 32 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:04,880 Speaker 2: nineteen sixties and early seventies. And what that means is 33 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:10,360 Speaker 2: taking a real event and then, you know, sprinkling in 34 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:14,560 Speaker 2: some fictional dust along the way to provide some connective 35 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:18,880 Speaker 2: tissue between the storylines. So, you know, I've never done 36 00:02:18,919 --> 00:02:21,840 Speaker 2: that before. I've written, you know, sixteen books prior to that, 37 00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:26,600 Speaker 2: and those are all very hard investigative journalism. This book 38 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:30,160 Speaker 2: Held Town. I feel like I needed to pay homage 39 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:35,359 Speaker 2: to these two writers by providing some context that otherwise 40 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:38,840 Speaker 2: I probably wouldn't have added in previous books. Now, you know, 41 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:42,760 Speaker 2: with Helltown, I write against a landscape and a backdrop 42 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:47,720 Speaker 2: of the turbulent nineteen sixties, nineteen sixty eight, nineteen sixty nine. 43 00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:50,280 Speaker 2: You know, in nineteen sixty eight, the Summer of Love 44 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:53,600 Speaker 2: is a distant memory. At that point, You've got the 45 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:57,360 Speaker 2: assassinations of Robert F. Kennedy, Martin Luther King, You've got 46 00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:02,239 Speaker 2: the bloody Democratic National Convention protests in Chicago, the inauguration 47 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:07,480 Speaker 2: of Richard Nixon, chap equittic with Senator Ted Kennedy, Woodstock, 48 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:11,600 Speaker 2: the moon landing, and ultimately the Manson murders in Los Angeles. 49 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:16,040 Speaker 2: And so I really leaned in to the time and 50 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:18,880 Speaker 2: the place so that I could give the reader a 51 00:03:18,919 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 2: feeling that they may not feel of reading a straight 52 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:23,920 Speaker 2: journalistic approach to a story like this. 53 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:28,519 Speaker 1: Well, and this is such a harrowing personal story. We've 54 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:32,480 Speaker 1: heard it from Lisa Rodman, who was the serial killers, 55 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:34,760 Speaker 1: one of his charges, one of the people who he 56 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:37,960 Speaker 1: took care of. But this is really a big, deep 57 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:41,560 Speaker 1: dive into the psyche of this guy. Before we talk 58 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:44,720 Speaker 1: about the story, tell me about your sources and what 59 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:49,240 Speaker 1: you used to build this world of ultimately nineteen sixty 60 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:50,360 Speaker 1: nine Provincetown. 61 00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:53,440 Speaker 2: Sure, And that's a great question, Kate, because you're only 62 00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 2: as good as as the material that you can gather 63 00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:00,480 Speaker 2: when you're tackling a project like this. Now, I grew 64 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:04,440 Speaker 2: up on Cape Cot in the early nineteen seventies, late 65 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:07,839 Speaker 2: nineteen seventies, and I'd heard of this story about these 66 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:11,680 Speaker 2: murders that took place in Provincetown in nineteen sixty eight, 67 00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:14,840 Speaker 2: in nineteen sixty nine. I never really paid too close 68 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:18,400 Speaker 2: attention to it because it really wasn't treated on Cape 69 00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:21,760 Speaker 2: Cott or anywhere else as real, devastating in historic and 70 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:24,760 Speaker 2: notorious crime, you know. And I'd put on my Luke 71 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:28,960 Speaker 2: Skywalker costume in the nineteen seventies and go trick or treating. 72 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:32,040 Speaker 2: That's when I'd hear the name Tony Costa, a serial 73 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:35,200 Speaker 2: killer we ultimately wrote about in Helltown. It was. He 74 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 2: became almost the boogeyman to kids growing up on the Cape. 75 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:43,400 Speaker 2: But during the pandemic, my brother Todd, who was a 76 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:47,279 Speaker 2: great muse of mine and collaborator throughout my entire career, 77 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:49,920 Speaker 2: just called me one day as I was working on 78 00:04:49,960 --> 00:04:52,800 Speaker 2: a writing project and he said, Casey, it's a beautiful day. 79 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:55,280 Speaker 2: Stop what you're doing. We're going to get a six 80 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:57,880 Speaker 2: pack of beer and drive the Cape and just hang 81 00:04:57,920 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 2: out like brothers, and we did, and we had a 82 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:03,120 Speaker 2: beautiful time together, and we went from village to village 83 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 2: until we ultimately ended up in Provincetown, and I remember 84 00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 2: driving down Commercial Street at the height of tourist season 85 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:13,479 Speaker 2: and all the storefronts were shuttered. So we began to 86 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:17,880 Speaker 2: talk about the ghosts real and imagined in Helltown, and 87 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:21,880 Speaker 2: ultimately we're landing on landmarks that we knew Tony cost 88 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:24,479 Speaker 2: that had lived in, had worked in, and that many 89 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:27,080 Speaker 2: of his victims had been seen at the last time 90 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:30,520 Speaker 2: of their lives. So after that day, I decided to 91 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:33,560 Speaker 2: go back to my writing office here and start to 92 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:37,000 Speaker 2: do a deep dive on the cost of story to 93 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:39,440 Speaker 2: decide whether or not I felt like it was worth 94 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:42,039 Speaker 2: my time to write as a book. And you start 95 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 2: with documentations, so going back and getting all of the 96 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:50,080 Speaker 2: first hand, primary source documents that you can find, and 97 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:53,680 Speaker 2: you know, none of the court records were ever digitized 98 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:57,320 Speaker 2: here in Massachusetts based on the cost of case. So 99 00:05:57,440 --> 00:06:01,040 Speaker 2: going through you know, official channels to get that information 100 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:05,400 Speaker 2: was exhausting and not very productive. But fortunately for me, 101 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 2: there were several investigators who were still around who covered 102 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:12,120 Speaker 2: the case, who kept all the case fops, and as 103 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:15,679 Speaker 2: an investigative journalist, part of your job is to gain 104 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:18,760 Speaker 2: the trust in the comfort level of these people so 105 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:22,480 Speaker 2: that they can share their information with you. So, you know, 106 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:27,520 Speaker 2: I was privy to well over three thousand court documents, 107 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:32,400 Speaker 2: crime scene documents, crime scene photos, and ultimately an unpublished 108 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:35,919 Speaker 2: manuscript written by the killer himself, Tony Costam. 109 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:38,200 Speaker 1: Wow, that must have been so eye opening for you. 110 00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:41,159 Speaker 2: It was, and it allowed me, you know, and I 111 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:44,279 Speaker 2: think it allows the reader to go into these murder 112 00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:47,280 Speaker 2: scenes in Helltown really through the eyes of the killer 113 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:51,440 Speaker 2: himself because many of the descriptions are taken from that 114 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:55,760 Speaker 2: unpublished manuscript. So you're seeing what Tony Costa saw, you're 115 00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:59,240 Speaker 2: feeling what he felt, and ultimately I was able to, 116 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:04,320 Speaker 2: you know, understand the motives behind these murders. 117 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:07,719 Speaker 1: Let's go ahead and get started on the story. Where 118 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:10,239 Speaker 1: does it make sense for you to start with this story. 119 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:13,720 Speaker 2: Let's go back to nineteen sixty eight nineteen sixty nine. 120 00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:17,040 Speaker 2: As I had mentioned, it was a very tumultuous time 121 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:21,960 Speaker 2: in American history. And you know, once I focused on 122 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:25,040 Speaker 2: Tony Coster, I tried to find out, you know, who 123 00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 2: he was and you know how he was able to 124 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:32,680 Speaker 2: seduce and manipulate you know, so many young women. He 125 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:37,120 Speaker 2: was a very charismatic figure, very similar in ways to 126 00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 2: Charles Manson. In fact, a little known fact about this 127 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 2: whole story is Tony Coster and Charles Manson knew each other. 128 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 1: Wow. 129 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:49,200 Speaker 2: They were living in Hayde Ashbury in San Francisco in 130 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 2: nineteen sixty seven. I know for a fact that they 131 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:55,480 Speaker 2: had gone to the same parties, breathed the same air. 132 00:07:56,200 --> 00:08:00,560 Speaker 2: So two evolving killers sharing time together. I don't necessarily 133 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:03,520 Speaker 2: think they talked about their plans for the future, so 134 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:06,360 Speaker 2: to speak, but just you know, to see this evolution 135 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:09,880 Speaker 2: and to see these two men, you know, so closely 136 00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:13,239 Speaker 2: connected in terms of, you know, what they were doing 137 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:16,760 Speaker 2: and how they were able, as they mentioned, to really 138 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:21,200 Speaker 2: manipulate and seduce you know women who again, you know, 139 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:24,960 Speaker 2: the Helltown is dedicated to the victims here, and you know, 140 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:29,240 Speaker 2: I really wanted to provide agency to the women that 141 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:34,040 Speaker 2: were murdered. These women weren't statistics, they weren't numbers. They 142 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:37,240 Speaker 2: were young women who had families, who had hopes and dreams, 143 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:40,720 Speaker 2: and all of those hopes and dreams were stuffed and 144 00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:45,400 Speaker 2: snuffed out by a sadistic serial killer. My aunt, nineteen 145 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:48,280 Speaker 2: year old Mary Sullivan, was the youngest and final victim 146 00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:53,240 Speaker 2: of the notorious nineteen sixties Boston strangler murder spree. So 147 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:56,760 Speaker 2: I know this world very well. I reinvestigated my aunt's 148 00:08:56,840 --> 00:09:00,480 Speaker 2: murder for fifteen years, and the aized that it wasn't 149 00:09:00,520 --> 00:09:04,440 Speaker 2: just one killer murdering these women, but several killers under 150 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:08,359 Speaker 2: the guise of this Jack the Ripper type character resurrected 151 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:11,760 Speaker 2: to stock the women of Boston. And what that told me, Kate, 152 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:14,839 Speaker 2: was that, you know, there are more men that are 153 00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:18,079 Speaker 2: capable of committing these crimes, whether the crimes of passion 154 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:20,840 Speaker 2: or crimes of evil. And I think for Tony cost 155 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 2: was really a crime of both. You know, if you 156 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:26,280 Speaker 2: look at Tony Costa, you're looking at somebody that is, 157 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:30,840 Speaker 2: you know, the living, breathing embodiment of the Hitchcock character 158 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:34,319 Speaker 2: Norman Bates from Psycho. Tony Costa had a love hate 159 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:38,800 Speaker 2: relationship with his mother. He was raised by a single 160 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:42,319 Speaker 2: mother after his father was killed at sea during World 161 00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:45,959 Speaker 2: War Two, and when Tony was about five or six 162 00:09:46,040 --> 00:09:50,520 Speaker 2: years old, his mother began to date again and got remarried, 163 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:54,200 Speaker 2: had another child, and all that love that had been 164 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:57,400 Speaker 2: given to one child alone had to be spread out 165 00:09:57,440 --> 00:10:00,760 Speaker 2: through the entire family. And I think that really, you know, 166 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:05,600 Speaker 2: created a chasm in Tony Costa's brain. And I think 167 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:08,120 Speaker 2: at that point, you know, he hated his mother, he 168 00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:11,760 Speaker 2: also loved her, and as he began to evolve with 169 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:15,720 Speaker 2: the psychotic thoughts, he did what a lot of serial 170 00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:20,359 Speaker 2: killers do is that they begin to work on smaller animals. 171 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:23,599 Speaker 2: So Tony Costa, you know, for example, Kate, if you 172 00:10:23,640 --> 00:10:27,120 Speaker 2: had a pet in Tony Costa's neighborhood just south of 173 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:30,960 Speaker 2: Boston in the early nineteen sixties, well, you know, a 174 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:34,000 Speaker 2: lot of those pets went missing, and that's because Tony 175 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:37,439 Speaker 2: Costa would take the pets, kill them, dissect them, and 176 00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:41,920 Speaker 2: perform taxidermy on these pets. And you know, you see 177 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 2: that with a lot of the different killers that are 178 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:47,440 Speaker 2: profiled by the FBI, by myself and by others, the 179 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:51,120 Speaker 2: evolution of a killer. And when Tony Costa was sixteen 180 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:54,840 Speaker 2: years old, he had sexually assaulted a teenage girl in 181 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:58,920 Speaker 2: his neighborhood, and at that point there was an ability 182 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:02,040 Speaker 2: or an opportunity to provide him the help that he 183 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 2: needed at the time put him away and give him 184 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:08,640 Speaker 2: some real psychiatric care. But his mother pleaded with a 185 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:11,880 Speaker 2: judge to be lenient on him, to let him go, 186 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:14,560 Speaker 2: and if he did so, she was going to send 187 00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:17,760 Speaker 2: him to live with a family in Provincetown, which is 188 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:21,280 Speaker 2: what the judge ultimately did. But Tony cost That did 189 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:25,040 Speaker 2: not get the help that he needed. Instead, he began 190 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:27,240 Speaker 2: to evolve and grow as a serial killer. 191 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:31,439 Speaker 1: When he writes about his childhood, how is he framing 192 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 1: all of this? Is he saying this was the beginning? 193 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:37,280 Speaker 1: He's he lamenting things? Or how does he talk about 194 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:39,959 Speaker 1: what happens with his mother and the family and everything. 195 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:43,960 Speaker 2: You know, I mean, he's a victim in his own tragedy. 196 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:46,640 Speaker 2: And you know, the interesting thing when you get into 197 00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:50,959 Speaker 2: the psychology or psychology rather of Tony cost is that 198 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:53,600 Speaker 2: he had a split personality and they call that, you know, 199 00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:57,920 Speaker 2: the ego splitting in psychoanalysis. So Tony Costa was able 200 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:02,079 Speaker 2: to blame these very little murders of women on somebody else, 201 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:05,560 Speaker 2: another personality that he had growing inside him. So even 202 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:10,360 Speaker 2: when he's writing this unpublished book, he's blaming these murders 203 00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:13,200 Speaker 2: on this personality that he created for himself. 204 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:16,280 Speaker 1: And you believe that or is this just something that 205 00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:19,240 Speaker 1: he is doing to mitigate the things that he's done. 206 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:22,120 Speaker 2: No, I believe that there was ego splitting there, and 207 00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:25,720 Speaker 2: you know, the psychiatrists at the time believed it as well. 208 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:29,280 Speaker 2: I also had access to twelve hours of audio taped 209 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:33,079 Speaker 2: interviews with Tony Costa done by his attorneys in nineteen 210 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:35,880 Speaker 2: sixty nine, so you know, I really got a sense 211 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:39,960 Speaker 2: of who he was. And he was clearly very smart, 212 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:45,160 Speaker 2: clearly very charismatic, incredibly brutal, and certainly thought he was 213 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:50,640 Speaker 2: smarter than his victims, and also law enforcement that was 214 00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:51,600 Speaker 2: trying to catch him. 215 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:55,160 Speaker 1: Well, tell me what happens. So he is instead of 216 00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:58,559 Speaker 1: going into psychiatric care, he goes to Provinstown to live 217 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:01,520 Speaker 1: with a family member. How old is he, what year 218 00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:04,760 Speaker 1: is this, How far behind are we before he starts 219 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:06,440 Speaker 1: killing people? And how does it go for him? 220 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:10,640 Speaker 2: This happens in the you know, early nineteen sixties. He 221 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:14,720 Speaker 2: sent as a high school student to Provincetown. Once he's there, 222 00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:18,079 Speaker 2: he's you know, it's a very small school of Provincetown 223 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:21,720 Speaker 2: High School. He enrolls, he gets a few friends, but 224 00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:26,440 Speaker 2: he's very shy. He falls in love with a thirteen 225 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:31,920 Speaker 2: year old girl named Avis Costa eventually Costa, and he 226 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:36,719 Speaker 2: impregnates her and marries her when she's fourteen. So Costa's 227 00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 2: just graduating high school, marries this underage girl because she's pregnant, 228 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:47,480 Speaker 2: and begins a life of alleged happy matrimony. But there's 229 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:50,960 Speaker 2: anything but happiness in the cost of household. You know, 230 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:56,120 Speaker 2: he's very controlling of his young again underage teenage wife. 231 00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:58,880 Speaker 2: She's I feel like she's a great victim in this 232 00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:03,679 Speaker 2: entire as well. And he begins, much like a lot 233 00:14:03,679 --> 00:14:06,600 Speaker 2: of people did in the mid to late nineteen sixties, 234 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:11,480 Speaker 2: experimenting with drugs, and he certainly became the pied piper 235 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:14,400 Speaker 2: in the drug scene and province down in the late 236 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:18,680 Speaker 2: nineteen sixties, which you know, elevated his popularity amongst young people, 237 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:23,200 Speaker 2: and that's why he was able to gain friendships with 238 00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:25,080 Speaker 2: a lot of these young women who were part of 239 00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:28,040 Speaker 2: that scene. Tony Costa was somebody that was well read 240 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:31,880 Speaker 2: and studied a great deal. When people spoke to him, 241 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:36,840 Speaker 2: he sounded like the actor Tony Curtis. He was very aerodyite, 242 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:40,120 Speaker 2: and he always kept a source and a dictionary with 243 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:43,920 Speaker 2: him because he was always training himself to learn new 244 00:14:43,920 --> 00:14:46,680 Speaker 2: words to sound, you know, to speak in a mid 245 00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:49,560 Speaker 2: Atlantic accident. That he had seen his heroes on the 246 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:52,080 Speaker 2: big screen use and I think that was you know, 247 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:57,840 Speaker 2: unique and certainly alluring and exotic for you know, some 248 00:14:57,920 --> 00:15:00,320 Speaker 2: of these girls that grew up on the Cape, he 249 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:01,400 Speaker 2: was able to gain their trust. 250 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:03,840 Speaker 1: Unfortunately, what is he doing for work? 251 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:07,000 Speaker 2: He was he was a laborer. He was a carpenter. 252 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:09,760 Speaker 2: I mean, Tony was really good with his hands, so 253 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:14,320 Speaker 2: he worked at a lot of the different businesses in Provincetown. 254 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:17,920 Speaker 2: There's a very famous hotel right on Commercial Street in 255 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:22,000 Speaker 2: Provincetown called the Crown and Anchor In Tony was the 256 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:27,280 Speaker 2: handyman at the property, lived on property for several months. 257 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:31,640 Speaker 2: So his reputation grew as somebody that you know was 258 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:36,000 Speaker 2: very good building houses or at least maintaining the properties. 259 00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:38,760 Speaker 2: So you know, he earned a nice living for himself. 260 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:42,160 Speaker 2: But you know, he was also very heavily involved in 261 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:44,840 Speaker 2: drugs and that ultimately caused his downfall. 262 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 1: Wow, Okay, what's the first big thing that happens in 263 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 1: Tony Costa's life. 264 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:56,680 Speaker 2: Well, the first woman that goes missing in Provincetown was 265 00:15:56,720 --> 00:16:01,320 Speaker 2: a woman named Sidney Monsen was anineteen year old recent 266 00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:05,480 Speaker 2: high school graduate from East Ham or Nawson High School 267 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:08,560 Speaker 2: who was living in Provincetown with her boyfriend and her 268 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:11,760 Speaker 2: sister lived nearby. She was bubbily, had a bright future 269 00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:15,880 Speaker 2: ahead of her, always saw her future in California. She 270 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:19,040 Speaker 2: was very artsy, and she read a great deal and 271 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:22,640 Speaker 2: she became friends with Tony Costa, and Tony was the 272 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:25,800 Speaker 2: last person that saw her alive. She goes missing in 273 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:30,000 Speaker 2: nineteen sixty eight and nobody looks for her and Kate really, 274 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 2: that's one of the most disturbing things I found out 275 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:35,000 Speaker 2: about this case was that women were disappearing on the 276 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:39,400 Speaker 2: outer cape and sometimes their own families didn't care. Law 277 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:43,120 Speaker 2: enforcement certainly didn't. And it was a time where young 278 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:46,760 Speaker 2: people were, you know, fleeing, you know, getting hitchhiking to 279 00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:50,960 Speaker 2: California or to New York City in Greenwich Village, so 280 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:53,360 Speaker 2: there wasn't a lot of focus on where these young 281 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:57,600 Speaker 2: women were. And the police officers in Provincetown and Truro, 282 00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:00,920 Speaker 2: you know, anytime Sidney mons and his name was mentioned, 283 00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:03,480 Speaker 2: they rolled their eyes and just thought, oh, well, you know, 284 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:07,720 Speaker 2: she's another hippie who decided to leave Provincetown. She didn't 285 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:10,960 Speaker 2: decide to leave Provincetown. She was taken from Provincetown and 286 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:16,919 Speaker 2: buried under Shalloworth, nine miles away. Several months later, another 287 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:20,679 Speaker 2: young girl goes missing. Her name is Susan Perry, again, 288 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:26,159 Speaker 2: nineteen years old, graduate of Provinstown High School, falls in 289 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:30,960 Speaker 2: love with Tony Costa. She goes missing, and Tony Cossa 290 00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:34,359 Speaker 2: spreads your rumor around town or a story that you 291 00:17:34,359 --> 00:17:38,080 Speaker 2: know She's traveled to Beankxico with friends to see the 292 00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:41,879 Speaker 2: Summer Olympics in Mexico, which was completely you know, erroneous. 293 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:47,280 Speaker 2: She was murdered in the same way that Sidney Monsen 294 00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:51,119 Speaker 2: was and the break in the case Kate happened in 295 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:55,120 Speaker 2: early nineteen sixty nine January of that year, where two 296 00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:59,960 Speaker 2: young professional women decide to drive from Providence, Rhode Island, 297 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:04,600 Speaker 2: to Cape Cod for a weekend get away in the 298 00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:07,800 Speaker 2: middle of winter, and they turn up at a boarding 299 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:11,240 Speaker 2: house in town where Tony Costa was living at the time. 300 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:14,680 Speaker 2: They were introduced to Tony by the landlady. Tony offers 301 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:17,760 Speaker 2: to guide them around Provincetown, you know, off season, because 302 00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:20,240 Speaker 2: he knew where all the good bars were and where 303 00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:24,359 Speaker 2: you know, tourists were likely to gather and they become 304 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:28,880 Speaker 2: very trusting of Tony Costa and what happens to them 305 00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:32,800 Speaker 2: is they go missing and Tony's life begins to unravel 306 00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:33,199 Speaker 2: after that. 307 00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:37,600 Speaker 1: Boy, so you've got already for women. Is this all 308 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:39,560 Speaker 1: on the same year you said in sixty eight or 309 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:40,960 Speaker 1: is this spills into sixty nine? 310 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:43,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, sixty eight and sixty nine, So I would say 311 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:47,240 Speaker 2: in the span of about eight months, for women go missing? 312 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:51,959 Speaker 1: What is it about Tony's life that allows him to 313 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:54,240 Speaker 1: do things like that? So it sounds like he is 314 00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:56,560 Speaker 1: sort of a tradesman who can go from job to 315 00:18:56,680 --> 00:18:58,879 Speaker 1: job and his wife is stuck at home with a 316 00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:02,879 Speaker 1: young child, is at what's happening, and he's so overbearing 317 00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:04,800 Speaker 1: and controlling that he can just walk in and walk 318 00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:05,879 Speaker 1: out whenever he wants. 319 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:08,679 Speaker 2: Well, Tony had complete freedom at the time because he 320 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:12,520 Speaker 2: was separated from his wife Davis. So Tony was living 321 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:17,960 Speaker 2: either at the Crown and Anchor hotel or CouchSurfing with friends. 322 00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:20,640 Speaker 2: He was a bit of a vagamond. There was anything 323 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:23,680 Speaker 2: to really tie him down. He didn't have a relationship 324 00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:26,720 Speaker 2: with his children or his wife, so he could come 325 00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:43,000 Speaker 2: and go as he pleased. So two young women in 326 00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:47,760 Speaker 2: the twenties, Patricia Walt and Marion Wisaki, decide to go 327 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:52,800 Speaker 2: on a weekend from Providence, Rhode Island, to Provincetown, Massachusetts. 328 00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:56,680 Speaker 2: And they do so because they've been under pressure from work. 329 00:19:57,359 --> 00:20:00,640 Speaker 2: They're also very sad that Richard Nix has just been 330 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:04,160 Speaker 2: inaugurated as president. So there's a lot that they want 331 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:07,439 Speaker 2: to kind of break from reality with. So they decide 332 00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:12,720 Speaker 2: to take pat Walsh's Blue VW Beetle to Provincetown for 333 00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:15,360 Speaker 2: the weekend. And you know a lot of people do 334 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:18,719 Speaker 2: travel to the Cape off season because the tourists had 335 00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:20,800 Speaker 2: gone at that time, and they really get the streets 336 00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:25,080 Speaker 2: to themselves. And these two young ladies book themselves at 337 00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:28,320 Speaker 2: a boarding house where Tony Costa has happens to be 338 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:32,520 Speaker 2: living at the time. They're introduced to Tony by the landlady, 339 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:36,280 Speaker 2: and again Tony is very friendly, very smart. You know, 340 00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:38,760 Speaker 2: these women are well read as it is Tony. So 341 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:43,359 Speaker 2: they hit it off very quickly, and as the women 342 00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:47,800 Speaker 2: begin to have a great night in Provincetown in late 343 00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:52,200 Speaker 2: January of nineteen sixty nine, Tony Costa starts to stalk them, 344 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:56,480 Speaker 2: and he's following them from bar to bar, and he's 345 00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:59,639 Speaker 2: watching them have the time of their lives. Well, he 346 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:03,119 Speaker 2: sits in the background sipping key ante and that was 347 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:06,600 Speaker 2: his drink of choice. It sounds very handible, lecturesque, but 348 00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:09,720 Speaker 2: that's exactly what Tony Costa drank at the time. According 349 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:14,639 Speaker 2: to his unpublished manuscript, and the day after having a 350 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:19,840 Speaker 2: great evening in Provincetown, the young women wake up and 351 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:22,720 Speaker 2: they see a note on their door from Tony or 352 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:26,880 Speaker 2: Antone as he called himself. Tony Costa had asked Pat 353 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:30,000 Speaker 2: Walsh and Mary Anne Waisaki to drive him to his 354 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:32,960 Speaker 2: employer's house to pick up a work check. These young 355 00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:35,639 Speaker 2: ladies were expecting company later in the day. They had 356 00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:38,600 Speaker 2: a friend who was going to meet them in Provincetown, 357 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:41,640 Speaker 2: so they had time to kill and unfortunately, so did 358 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:46,280 Speaker 2: Tony Costam. He got into the back of their Volkswagen Beetle. 359 00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:50,879 Speaker 2: They rambled out of Provincetown down Root six, a beautiful 360 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:56,480 Speaker 2: picturesque two lane mini highway toward Truro and Tony Costa 361 00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:59,840 Speaker 2: told them that he wanted to show them his marri 362 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:03,200 Speaker 2: want a garden now again, this is nineteen sixty eight 363 00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:07,480 Speaker 2: sixty nine, marijuana was illegal in Massachusetts, but every young 364 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:11,919 Speaker 2: person was certainly indulging at the time. So the women said, okay, 365 00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:14,600 Speaker 2: and Tony koss that took them first to an ancient 366 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:18,160 Speaker 2: cemetery in Truro and they were looking at all the 367 00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:23,760 Speaker 2: unusual engravings on the tombstones and drinking wine and getting high. 368 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:26,840 Speaker 2: And it was a great early afternoon for the three 369 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:30,560 Speaker 2: of them until the two women decide that it's time 370 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:33,600 Speaker 2: to get back to Provincetown. And what they don't understand 371 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:36,480 Speaker 2: is not only does Tony cause to have marijuana stashed 372 00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:39,840 Speaker 2: in the woods, but he's got a two killing weapons, 373 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:44,240 Speaker 2: a knife and a handgun a pistol, and he goes 374 00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:47,600 Speaker 2: into the woods and he extracts those weapons and he 375 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:52,920 Speaker 2: faces these two women on a desolate, quiet dirt road 376 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:55,560 Speaker 2: in the middle of the woods, and he kills them both. 377 00:22:56,720 --> 00:23:00,479 Speaker 1: That's terrible, just to think that these four women in 378 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:04,159 Speaker 1: less than a year have gone missing and are murdered 379 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:07,280 Speaker 1: and buried. And what I think is interesting about this 380 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:12,800 Speaker 1: story is the investment that Tony Costa makes, which to 381 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:15,359 Speaker 1: me is very different than other serial killers. You know, 382 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:18,840 Speaker 1: he is spending time. It's a risk he's spending time 383 00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:22,040 Speaker 1: with these women, these two women, right, I mean people 384 00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:25,600 Speaker 1: have seen them together. At the end, they know each other. 385 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:30,320 Speaker 1: He is identifiable. If they are discovered, their bodies are discovered, 386 00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:33,080 Speaker 1: and the alarm is sounded, the police are probably going 387 00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:34,960 Speaker 1: to want to talk to him. Where someone you know 388 00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:39,080 Speaker 1: nearby to ask witnesses. So it's interesting. It's to me 389 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:43,320 Speaker 1: not the traditional mo of the serial killer who stalks 390 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:46,199 Speaker 1: the person he doesn't know, like a BTK or a 391 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:50,600 Speaker 1: Ted Bundy. So it's interesting. He really has invested time 392 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:50,920 Speaker 1: in this. 393 00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:53,760 Speaker 2: He's invested time in this. You know, he's a bit 394 00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:56,440 Speaker 2: of a sloppy killer. But I think this is where 395 00:23:56,440 --> 00:24:00,320 Speaker 2: the ego splitting alterier personality of Tony Costa K's in. 396 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:03,439 Speaker 2: You know, there's a likelihood that Tony Costa didn't even 397 00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:06,199 Speaker 2: realize what he was doing at the time, so he 398 00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:09,520 Speaker 2: could perform in public as if he didn't know what 399 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:12,159 Speaker 2: was going on, because a part of him did not 400 00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:16,240 Speaker 2: know what was going on. Of course, when the alarm 401 00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:19,960 Speaker 2: bells are sounded and the police finally decide to take 402 00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:24,240 Speaker 2: a serious look in the disappearances of the two women 403 00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:27,240 Speaker 2: from Providence, Rhode Island, Tony Costa's name is the first 404 00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:30,560 Speaker 2: name mentioned by the landlady in Provincetown. So there's a 405 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:34,000 Speaker 2: direct connection between the prime suspect and the two missing women. 406 00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:38,680 Speaker 2: But again, Tony Costa thinks he's smarter than the investigators. 407 00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:42,000 Speaker 2: So instead of shying away from the case and staying 408 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:46,840 Speaker 2: in the shadows, Tony Costa goads the investigators. He's sending 409 00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:50,119 Speaker 2: them notes, He's confronting them in the middle of the 410 00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:54,960 Speaker 2: police station, proclaiming his innocence because he never thinks that 411 00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:58,200 Speaker 2: the bodies of those two women and the two other 412 00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:01,960 Speaker 2: victims are ever going to be unearthed, because he believes 413 00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:03,160 Speaker 2: he's hidden them so well. 414 00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:05,560 Speaker 1: And are they all in the same woods or are 415 00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:06,359 Speaker 1: they in different woods? 416 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:09,080 Speaker 2: You said, Truro, Right, Yeah, I said true, So they're 417 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:11,919 Speaker 2: all in the same woods. In fact, many of the 418 00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:16,000 Speaker 2: victims were buried in the exact same plot. Their remains 419 00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:19,639 Speaker 2: were stacked on top of each other like cords of wood. 420 00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:23,520 Speaker 2: And again, that's really how Tony Kusa treated these women. 421 00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:25,720 Speaker 2: He didn't look at them as human beings. 422 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:28,600 Speaker 1: Is there some sort of an emotional connection between Tony 423 00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:30,879 Speaker 1: and these woods? I mean, I know there's marijuana, but 424 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:32,879 Speaker 1: is there any significance to it. 425 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:36,000 Speaker 2: To him, I think there's really you know, besides the 426 00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:39,600 Speaker 2: fact that it was a very remote area of Cape 427 00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:43,399 Speaker 2: Cod really off the beaten path. There wasn't necessarily a 428 00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:47,359 Speaker 2: personal connection with him took those area of woods, but 429 00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:51,960 Speaker 2: he's he certainly lured other women to those areas. In fact, 430 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:56,240 Speaker 2: there was a Provincetown high school student whom he lured 431 00:25:56,240 --> 00:26:00,000 Speaker 2: there about a year prior to that, with the same 432 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:03,840 Speaker 2: promise of you sharing some marijuana with her in the 433 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:08,159 Speaker 2: woods and doing what young people do. But instead he 434 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:11,360 Speaker 2: brought with him a bow and an arrow, and he 435 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:13,960 Speaker 2: actually shot her with a bow and an arrow, shot 436 00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:17,560 Speaker 2: her on the shoulder. Unfortunately, she didn't report that to 437 00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:21,119 Speaker 2: police at the time, and he was allowed to continue 438 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:22,679 Speaker 2: and evolve as a killer. 439 00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:26,399 Speaker 1: What would have been the connection that police would have 440 00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:31,199 Speaker 1: made forensically in nineteen sixty nine between Tony Costa and 441 00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:34,879 Speaker 1: any of these four victims had one of them been discovered. 442 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:39,000 Speaker 2: These women had their pocketbooks on them. Tony Costa buried 443 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:43,439 Speaker 2: their personal belongings in the woods outside where he had 444 00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:47,080 Speaker 2: buried the bodies, But investigators early on in the case, 445 00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:50,640 Speaker 2: you know, discovered his you know, a rope that they 446 00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:54,800 Speaker 2: were able to test for blood samples and you know, 447 00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:58,160 Speaker 2: the blood it was very similar to the blood of 448 00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:01,359 Speaker 2: one of the victims. So this is really early, you know, 449 00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:05,040 Speaker 2: kind of DNA analysis. So the forensics in this case 450 00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:10,720 Speaker 2: were quite strong. Tony Costa's fingerprints were on the vehicle 451 00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:14,119 Speaker 2: that the women were driving at the time. Tony Costa 452 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:17,080 Speaker 2: claim that the women had sold him the vehicle and 453 00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:20,040 Speaker 2: offered a bill of sale that he had written, so 454 00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:23,560 Speaker 2: they were able to do handwriting analysis as well, which 455 00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:26,879 Speaker 2: he was able to disprove any idea that these women 456 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:31,000 Speaker 2: were selling a vehicle of any kind to Tony Costa. 457 00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:35,479 Speaker 2: And so you've got this incredible case evolving, and you go, 458 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:38,720 Speaker 2: you know what really drove me to the story, Kate was, again, 459 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:42,000 Speaker 2: I didn't really want to focus on not necessarily just 460 00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:45,000 Speaker 2: a serial killer story as a writer. I wanted to 461 00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:49,600 Speaker 2: explore the dark fascination that writers have with their subject matters. 462 00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:53,960 Speaker 2: So while these murders are happening on the outer Cape, 463 00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:57,800 Speaker 2: two well known writers become darkly obsessed with the crimes, 464 00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:01,120 Speaker 2: Norman Mailer, who was living in Provenstown at the time, 465 00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:05,879 Speaker 2: and Kurt Vonnegut, who was living forty miles south in Barnstable, 466 00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:09,000 Speaker 2: and it was interesting. At the time nineteen sixty eight 467 00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:13,520 Speaker 2: sixty nine, Norman Mailer was a household name. He had 468 00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:15,679 Speaker 2: been a best selling author since The Naked and the 469 00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:18,920 Speaker 2: Dead in the late nineteen forties. He was kind of 470 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:21,919 Speaker 2: the heir apparent to Ernest Hemingway, both in his writing 471 00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:26,280 Speaker 2: style in his larger than life personality. Kurt Vonnegut was 472 00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:29,040 Speaker 2: the exact opposite. Nobody knew who Kurt was. He had 473 00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:33,680 Speaker 2: already published several books, but he was a very unknown 474 00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:38,360 Speaker 2: writer in the late nineteen sixties, and he was just 475 00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:42,360 Speaker 2: about to publish what would become his opus, Slaughterhouse five, 476 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:46,400 Speaker 2: which would catapult him into worldwide fame. But Kurt stumbles 477 00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:50,040 Speaker 2: upon this case because his daughter Edie is hanging out 478 00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:52,760 Speaker 2: with a group of hippies in Provenstown, so it was 479 00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:56,040 Speaker 2: young girls go missing. He's really kind of concerned and 480 00:28:56,080 --> 00:29:00,080 Speaker 2: worried about his own daughter's safety. And Kurt Vonnegut was 481 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:03,120 Speaker 2: also a crime reporter in Chicago back in the late 482 00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:06,640 Speaker 2: nineteen forties early nineteen fifties before he moved to Cape 483 00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:10,560 Speaker 2: god So Kurt put on his investigative hat and began 484 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:13,680 Speaker 2: to look at these cases, as did Norman Mailer, and 485 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:18,400 Speaker 2: Mailer was really more interested in how somebody a la 486 00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:23,000 Speaker 2: Tony Costa, you know, could explode and commit these types 487 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:26,520 Speaker 2: of crimes. Because Norman Mailer had tried to kill his 488 00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:29,680 Speaker 2: wife in nineteen sixty two in New York City and 489 00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:33,520 Speaker 2: was never brought to trial because his wife never brought 490 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:35,640 Speaker 2: charges against him. So he was a man who was 491 00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:38,600 Speaker 2: skating on the razer's edge of sanity and darkness, and 492 00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:42,200 Speaker 2: here it was blossoming around him and the embodiment of 493 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:42,880 Speaker 2: Tony Costa. 494 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:45,880 Speaker 1: If we go back to that time in nineteen sixty nine, 495 00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:49,840 Speaker 1: we have these four women who are missing, and you say, 496 00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:52,920 Speaker 1: once the police and parlvements down, get it together and 497 00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:56,240 Speaker 1: start realizing that they need to put some things together. 498 00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:58,920 Speaker 1: You said they went and talked to Tony, because he 499 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:00,960 Speaker 1: was the last person to say these two women, Is 500 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:01,360 Speaker 1: that right? 501 00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:04,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, they went to talk to Tony, and Tony, you know, 502 00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:08,320 Speaker 2: was vehement in his denial of any responsibility. He said 503 00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:10,240 Speaker 2: he knew the women. He said that the women had 504 00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:14,080 Speaker 2: told him the Volkswagen Beetle. Of course, the investigators didn't 505 00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:16,320 Speaker 2: believe a word of it, and one of the investigators 506 00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:19,720 Speaker 2: even gave Tony some sage advice, you'd better find a 507 00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:23,160 Speaker 2: defense attorney very quick because we're going to ultimately find 508 00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:26,520 Speaker 2: these missing women and the direct link team is going 509 00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:29,520 Speaker 2: to be pretty apparent. But that took almost two months 510 00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:34,360 Speaker 2: for investigators to put all the pieces together that ultimately 511 00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:38,680 Speaker 2: brought them to the National Forest in Truro where they 512 00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:43,000 Speaker 2: stumbled upon these death pits and they were able to, 513 00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:47,200 Speaker 2: you know, find the remains of again not only Pat 514 00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:50,000 Speaker 2: Walsh and Marry and Waisaki, the two women that they 515 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:54,400 Speaker 2: were looking for, but Susan Perry and Sidney Monsen, two 516 00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:57,440 Speaker 2: women that had gone missing but certainly no alarm bells 517 00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:00,680 Speaker 2: had been raised by their families. So now Costa is 518 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:05,480 Speaker 2: accused of formers and immediately State police dispatch a unit 519 00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:08,360 Speaker 2: to Boston where Tony Costa is hiding at the time, 520 00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:12,000 Speaker 2: and they arrest him very quickly without incident. 521 00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:15,600 Speaker 1: So they find him in Boston where he's been hiding 522 00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:18,600 Speaker 1: and they arrest him. What happens with the wheels of 523 00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:20,960 Speaker 1: justice turning at this point. 524 00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:24,200 Speaker 2: Well, they bring him back to Cape cod and the 525 00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:27,920 Speaker 2: district attorney at the time, Ed Denise, was a political animal, 526 00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:31,960 Speaker 2: and he amplified the murders that Tony Costa had committed. 527 00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:35,040 Speaker 2: The murders that Tony Costa had committed were brutal on 528 00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:38,280 Speaker 2: their face, but Ed Denise, the prosecutor, began to call 529 00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:41,880 Speaker 2: Tony the Cape God vampire because he told the press 530 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:46,080 Speaker 2: that he was not only murdering and dismembering these women, 531 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:49,000 Speaker 2: but he was also biting them and leaving his teeth 532 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:51,280 Speaker 2: marks in their in their bodies. And that was that 533 00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:53,720 Speaker 2: was the only thing about this case that was not true. 534 00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:55,240 Speaker 1: Because he wanted publicity. 535 00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:58,280 Speaker 2: Yep, that's that's exactly what he did. He was looking 536 00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:01,479 Speaker 2: at this case as a to catapult him back to 537 00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:05,000 Speaker 2: national prominence. You know, in a way, Tony Costa was 538 00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:07,640 Speaker 2: also doing the same thing. Tony Costa wanted to be 539 00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:10,840 Speaker 2: a star, he wanted to be famous. He you know, 540 00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:13,560 Speaker 2: as I mentioned covering this case. To me, he's the 541 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:16,720 Speaker 2: most brutal serial killer in American history. The victims and 542 00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:19,640 Speaker 2: what he did to them certainly are proof of that. 543 00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:24,200 Speaker 2: But in late summer in nineteen sixty nine, Charles Manson 544 00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:28,880 Speaker 2: and his family begin murdering famous people in California, which 545 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:32,280 Speaker 2: takes the Tony Costa murders completely out of the headlines, 546 00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:35,240 Speaker 2: and Tony Costa would write his lawyer about this, you know, 547 00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:39,440 Speaker 2: not understanding why he wasn't generating the same publicity and 548 00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:42,239 Speaker 2: the same notoriety as Charles Manson was. 549 00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:45,080 Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about the criminal case, and Aed Denise 550 00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:49,320 Speaker 1: is preparing his case against Tony. He goes on trial 551 00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:51,280 Speaker 1: for how many all four or just two? 552 00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:55,480 Speaker 2: He went on trial for two murders, which really upset 553 00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:59,160 Speaker 2: the families of the other two victims here, Susan Perry 554 00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:02,400 Speaker 2: and Sidney Mansea. But Ed Denise wanted a sure thing 555 00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:06,600 Speaker 2: and he knew that he had enough evidence to try 556 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:09,680 Speaker 2: Tony Costa for the murders of Pat Walsham, Mary and 557 00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:12,360 Speaker 2: Waisaki because he had physical evidence to tie him to 558 00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:14,600 Speaker 2: the case. He had witnesses that tied him to the case. 559 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:18,440 Speaker 2: With the other two women, they had been clearly dismembered 560 00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:21,800 Speaker 2: and buried, but the way that they had been killed, 561 00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:24,440 Speaker 2: you know, because they had been buried for so long, 562 00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:28,240 Speaker 2: they couldn't determine their cause of death. That's why Denise 563 00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:32,000 Speaker 2: didn't pursue murder charges against Tony Costa, because he didn't 564 00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:35,200 Speaker 2: think that they would stick. So these women were basically 565 00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:38,400 Speaker 2: victims in absentia. In the Tony cost the trial, but 566 00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:41,920 Speaker 2: it was the most sensational murder trial in Cape Cod 567 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:44,000 Speaker 2: history at the time. You know, Cape Got is a 568 00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:48,000 Speaker 2: very sleepy, quiet place where you know, normally trials are 569 00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:53,640 Speaker 2: disputes between landowners, farmers or fishermen. Here you would have 570 00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:59,360 Speaker 2: a criminal trial that talks about cannibalism, necrophilia, murder. You know, 571 00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:03,080 Speaker 2: these things had never even been discussed, certainly in open 572 00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:07,120 Speaker 2: conversation with anybody on Cape God. So you know, not 573 00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:10,560 Speaker 2: only was the jury absolutely horrified by it, but also 574 00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:14,000 Speaker 2: you know, the press and the public were as well. 575 00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:18,239 Speaker 2: And here is Tony Costa, this mild mannered killer that 576 00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:21,520 Speaker 2: you'd look at and you'd think, much like Ted Bondy, Well, 577 00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:23,319 Speaker 2: there's no way he could have done this, There's no 578 00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:26,840 Speaker 2: way he could be capable of such violence. But he 579 00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:27,480 Speaker 2: certainly was. 580 00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:31,160 Speaker 1: So he is on trial for killing Patricia Walsh and 581 00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:36,239 Speaker 1: Marianne Waisaki. What is the weakness of the case. Are 582 00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:39,239 Speaker 1: there any weaknesses in Denise's case against him? 583 00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:42,000 Speaker 2: They're really I mean, you know, as much of a 584 00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:45,120 Speaker 2: slam dunk case as you could possibly find. You know, 585 00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:47,760 Speaker 2: what I thought was interesting is, you know Tony Costa's 586 00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:52,000 Speaker 2: defense obviously he you know, never admitted to the murders, 587 00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:56,520 Speaker 2: at least during trial, but he wanted to expose drug 588 00:34:56,560 --> 00:35:00,920 Speaker 2: culture in itself and how drugs, you know, American society, 589 00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:05,400 Speaker 2: we're doing things detrimental to society and young people, and 590 00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:09,360 Speaker 2: that's what his attorneys really wanted to focus on, almost 591 00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:14,360 Speaker 2: you know, guilt by insanity. And so the case goes, 592 00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:18,920 Speaker 2: you know, several days. It's extremely explosive. There are witnesses, 593 00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:23,360 Speaker 2: including Tony Costa's ex wife, Avis, because they were divorced 594 00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:26,200 Speaker 2: by the time the trial actually came around, and the 595 00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:31,120 Speaker 2: testimony was just graphic, horrific and something that people had 596 00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:32,000 Speaker 2: never heard before. 597 00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:36,680 Speaker 1: So the trial proceeds, and what is his demeanor? What 598 00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:38,280 Speaker 1: is your impression of him in court? 599 00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:42,279 Speaker 2: He's watching again a play where he plays the hero, So, 600 00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:45,719 Speaker 2: you know, Tony Coster is very attentive, especially when his 601 00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:49,520 Speaker 2: wife is on the stand. He's very combative against not 602 00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:53,120 Speaker 2: only the prosecution but his own defense for not really 603 00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:58,040 Speaker 2: focusing on ulterior suspects, including a young man named Corey 604 00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:01,640 Speaker 2: Devereaux who was a high school student, small time drug 605 00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:04,840 Speaker 2: dealer in Provincetown at the time. But Corey Devereaux is 606 00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:08,280 Speaker 2: the name that Tony Costa co opted for his altered ego, 607 00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:11,160 Speaker 2: and of course, you know, the defense would never you know, 608 00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:13,960 Speaker 2: there wasn't any evidence to suggest that, So the defense 609 00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:16,720 Speaker 2: had to maintain that, you know, this was a crime, 610 00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:19,960 Speaker 2: you know, committed by somebody who could not tell right 611 00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:24,800 Speaker 2: from wrong because they were heavily influenced by psychotropic drugs. 612 00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:27,879 Speaker 1: Well, we know that he was responsible for four. Has 613 00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:31,880 Speaker 1: he been able to be tied to any other murders 614 00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:32,600 Speaker 1: that you know of? 615 00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:36,440 Speaker 2: Yes, So two women that he knew in San Francisco 616 00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:40,200 Speaker 2: in the summer of nineteen sixty seven had gone missing 617 00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:43,080 Speaker 2: while he was out there. I believe their whereabouts may 618 00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:46,080 Speaker 2: have been corroborated, or these women may have been found 619 00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:50,120 Speaker 2: years later. But there's another victim here. Her name was 620 00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:53,799 Speaker 2: Christine Gallant, a young woman that Tony Costa met in 621 00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:58,319 Speaker 2: Provencetown in nineteen sixty eight, was dating her. She had 622 00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:01,360 Speaker 2: moved back to New York City because she had a 623 00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:05,120 Speaker 2: job that I believe at Columbia University's a librarian. Tony 624 00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:07,960 Speaker 2: Costa spent some time with her down there, and she 625 00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:10,560 Speaker 2: ends up dead in the bathtub. And it's interesting that 626 00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:14,080 Speaker 2: the medical examiner at the time, the Junior Medical examiner 627 00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:18,000 Speaker 2: in charge of this case was doctor Michael Now Michael 628 00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:24,200 Speaker 2: Boden everybody knows, became a very celebrated forensic pathologist. He 629 00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:27,239 Speaker 2: testified in the ORJ. Simpson case. He's had his own 630 00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:31,760 Speaker 2: television show on HBO. I've known Michael for years. Michael 631 00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:36,280 Speaker 2: didn't understand that Christine also had a very violent, murderous boyfriend. 632 00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:41,280 Speaker 2: So you know, I believe that Tony Costa killed Christine 633 00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:45,480 Speaker 2: Gallant physically overdosed her and drowned her in her own bathtub. 634 00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:48,279 Speaker 1: That's just because of what you know about his personality. 635 00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:49,920 Speaker 1: He never wrote about Christine. 636 00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:53,319 Speaker 2: Well, he wrote about her quite extensively, but not the 637 00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:56,160 Speaker 2: way she was killed. He always shot away from that. 638 00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:58,640 Speaker 2: I think if there was anybody that Tony Costa truly 639 00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:02,840 Speaker 2: loved in his warped world, it was Christine. And you know, 640 00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:05,719 Speaker 2: in his crazy demeanor, he loved her enough to kill her, 641 00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:06,839 Speaker 2: at least according to him. 642 00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:10,560 Speaker 1: So as the trial comes to a close, what is 643 00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:13,320 Speaker 1: the jury left with as far as evidence. There's physical 644 00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:17,120 Speaker 1: evidence and anecdotal evidence against Tony in a case that 645 00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:19,480 Speaker 1: you think is sort of a slam dunk, and then 646 00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:23,400 Speaker 1: Tony his defense is what give me a quick summary 647 00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:24,040 Speaker 1: of the defense. 648 00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:26,920 Speaker 2: Well, I think it shocked the entire jury and everybody 649 00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:30,640 Speaker 2: in the courtroom where Tony Costa demanded that he speak 650 00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:35,280 Speaker 2: to the jury before deliberations, and at that point Tony 651 00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:38,880 Speaker 2: Costa confessed and admitted to the crimes. For a brief 652 00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:41,600 Speaker 2: moment in time, Tony Costa said he was the killer 653 00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:45,640 Speaker 2: of these young women, but blamed these murders on the 654 00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:48,759 Speaker 2: drugs that he was taking at the time, hoping that, 655 00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:51,240 Speaker 2: you know, he would be placed in a psychiatric hospital 656 00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:53,560 Speaker 2: as opposed to Walpole State Prison. 657 00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:55,600 Speaker 1: What was the jury's reaction to all of that? 658 00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:59,160 Speaker 2: They were surprised that he was willing to speak, But again, 659 00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:03,600 Speaker 2: you know, Costa was never shy. He was always in 660 00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:06,600 Speaker 2: your face and ready to articulate his message, and he 661 00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:10,080 Speaker 2: certainly had the opportunity to do that. And the judge 662 00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:13,920 Speaker 2: came back, or the jury rather with a very quick verdict, 663 00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:16,040 Speaker 2: and that verdict was guilty on all accounts. 664 00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:18,879 Speaker 1: Wow, is he sentenced to life in prison or what's 665 00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:19,520 Speaker 1: the sentence? 666 00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:23,120 Speaker 2: He was sentenced to life in prison. So he went, 667 00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:27,239 Speaker 2: you know, right from Cape cod to a number of 668 00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:32,400 Speaker 2: different smaller prisons before eventually heading to Walpole State Prison. 669 00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:36,880 Speaker 2: In Massachusetts, which was the most secure and notorious prison 670 00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:38,880 Speaker 2: in Massachusetts at the time. 671 00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:41,120 Speaker 1: Did he die there or what was his so? 672 00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:46,759 Speaker 2: Tony Costa was committed suicide in prison in nineteen seventy three, 673 00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:51,680 Speaker 2: and when the prison officials entered to sell he was 674 00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:56,080 Speaker 2: found hanging by his bunk. They found his unpublished manuscript 675 00:39:56,440 --> 00:39:58,480 Speaker 2: and there are a number of different books that he 676 00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:03,319 Speaker 2: had read over time. He was very heavily influenced by 677 00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:06,440 Speaker 2: the occult. And as I said, there are similarities between 678 00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:10,760 Speaker 2: Manson and Costa because they were able to not only seduce, 679 00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:13,840 Speaker 2: you know, young women and murder them, so to speak, 680 00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:17,040 Speaker 2: but they were able to seduce others to join them 681 00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:19,520 Speaker 2: in their cause. You know, I don't think that Tony 682 00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:23,000 Speaker 2: Costa committed the murders of these women alone, because the 683 00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:26,920 Speaker 2: cleanup was too messy. Tony Costa couldn't have done it himself. 684 00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:30,120 Speaker 2: I do think that there are so called family members, 685 00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:32,440 Speaker 2: if you will, and I mean that by saying that 686 00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:35,680 Speaker 2: there were you know, friends and associates of Tony Costa 687 00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:38,279 Speaker 2: at the time who again looked at him much like 688 00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:41,200 Speaker 2: Chrales Manson's family looked at him, and I think they 689 00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:45,280 Speaker 2: were able to help him cover up these evil deeds. 690 00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:48,960 Speaker 1: What do you think ultimately tripped up Tony Costa? Is 691 00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:51,759 Speaker 1: it that he got to know the two victims who 692 00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:53,000 Speaker 1: he went on trial for killing. 693 00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:55,640 Speaker 2: Well, he got to know all the victims, you know. 694 00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:58,600 Speaker 2: I think Tony Costa's arrogance tripped him up. At the 695 00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:00,799 Speaker 2: end of the day. I think he planned on killing 696 00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:04,040 Speaker 2: other women and you know, wouldn't have been stopped unless 697 00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:08,200 Speaker 2: the families took these disappearances seriously. But Tony Costa took 698 00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:11,600 Speaker 2: advantage of the dime because you know, teenagers and young 699 00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:16,120 Speaker 2: people were leaving their families, They were leaving their hometowns 700 00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:19,400 Speaker 2: and just going across country and going around the world 701 00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:23,200 Speaker 2: in an era that was care free. And again in 702 00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:27,680 Speaker 2: the era before cell phones, before email, before computers, where 703 00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:30,439 Speaker 2: you know, if you managed to get a written letter back, 704 00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:32,400 Speaker 2: you know, to your parents, who to your loved ones, 705 00:41:32,719 --> 00:41:35,640 Speaker 2: that happened few and far between. Yeah, So Tony Costa 706 00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:48,319 Speaker 2: took advantage of that particular time in American history. 707 00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:52,120 Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the 708 00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:55,239 Speaker 1: audio versions of my books The Ghost Club, All That 709 00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:58,800 Speaker 1: Is Wicked, and American Sherlock. This has been an exactly 710 00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:03,520 Speaker 1: right production. Our Senior producer is Alexis Amrosi. Our associate 711 00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:08,440 Speaker 1: producer is Christina Chamberlain. This episode was mixed by John Bradley. 712 00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:12,680 Speaker 1: Curtis Heath is our composer. Artwork by Nick Toga. Executive 713 00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:17,120 Speaker 1: produced by Georgia Hardstark, Karen Kilgarriff and Danielle Kramer. Follow 714 00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:21,040 Speaker 1: Wicked Words on Instagram and Facebook at tenfold more Wicked 715 00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:23,840 Speaker 1: and on Twitter at tenfold more and if you know 716 00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:26,359 Speaker 1: of a historical crime that could use some attention from 717 00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:29,800 Speaker 1: the crew at tenfold war Wicked, email us at info 718 00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:33,960 Speaker 1: at tenfoldmorewicked dot com. We'll also take your suggestions for 719 00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:40,440 Speaker 1: true crime authors for Wicked Words