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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Greece. Well, it's happened again, according

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Speaker 1: to a rape victim and police investigators. How many times

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Speaker 1: will an athlete get preferential treatment after brutal rape charges?

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Speaker 1: This time we have a University of Utah swimmer actually

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Speaker 1: skipping the country and fleeing to Canada when his alleged

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Speaker 1: rape victim finally finds her voice and makes a complaint.

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Speaker 1: Talk about flight as being in dish of guilt. You know,

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Speaker 1: when a lot of jurisdiction's flight as inn disha of

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Speaker 1: guilt is no longer a jury charge. A judge doesn't

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Speaker 1: tell the jury that they can consider flight as evidence

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Speaker 1: of guilt. However, it can still be argued by prosecutors.

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Speaker 1: And I've never seen a case fit for that argument

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Speaker 1: as this case an elite university swimmer accused of rape.

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Speaker 1: Besides to what go on Vaca in Canada? Never seen

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Speaker 1: Niagara Falls? Do you believe that? Because I don't? Imancy Grace,

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Speaker 1: this is crime Stories. Thank you for being with us

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Speaker 1: here at Fox Nation and Serious ex sem one to eleven.

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Speaker 1: How do the whole thing start? Take a listen to

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Speaker 1: our friends at Fox thirteen.

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Speaker 2: A sophomore on the University of Utah swimming and diving

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Speaker 2: team has been charged with rape a student at the

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Speaker 2: Utah Police she met nineteen year old Ben Smith in

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Speaker 2: her dorm building last August, and later that day he

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Speaker 2: visited her in her room and started kissing her. She

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Speaker 2: said she told him no multiple times, but he kept

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Speaker 2: forcing her into various sex acts. When police interviewed him,

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Speaker 2: Smith first den I knowing the victim, but then acknowledge

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Speaker 2: having sex with her and knowing she was in pain.

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Speaker 1: Oh, dear Lord in Heaven, I haven't even gotten into

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Speaker 1: the beginning of the facts, and it's like deja vu,

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Speaker 1: a bad flashback, because that sounds like every rape case ever.

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Speaker 1: Let me just go straight out to Donna Kelly. I've

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Speaker 1: got an all star panel including Jared Page with the

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Speaker 1: guiptp art daily in Salt Lake City. But Donna Kelly,

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Speaker 1: former Utah Senior Deputy District Attorney attorney for crimes victims,

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Speaker 1: helped form the Utah County Sex Crimes Task Force. Can

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Speaker 1: they at least come up with a different story, because

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Speaker 1: first of all, it's that it didn't happen. Oh who,

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Speaker 1: I don't know her, and then you go, oh, well, look,

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Speaker 1: here's video from the bar and there you are sitting

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Speaker 1: beside each other on a bar steel. Oh that girl,

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Speaker 1: I still don't know her. I just saw her in

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Speaker 1: the bar. I had nothing to do with her. Well, sir,

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Speaker 1: if you look at the rest of the video, you

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Speaker 1: see you and her leaving the bar together. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know what I did offer as a gentleman to

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Speaker 1: walk her to her car because it was late at night.

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Speaker 1: And sir, we have your fingerprints on her car. Well,

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Speaker 1: I opened the car door for her. On the inside

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Speaker 1: of her car. Well, you know what. I sat in

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Speaker 1: there for a few moments and we talked. Well you

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Speaker 1: know what, she says, you raped her. Well, we may

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Speaker 1: have had consensual sex, but she wanted it. Well, the

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Speaker 1: rape kit nurse says she was raped. And your DNA

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Speaker 1: is there. See how the progression of that story go's

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Speaker 1: Donna Kelly. So here we say what who we see

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Speaker 1: him saying? What did it? Oh? Yeah her, that was consensual.

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Speaker 1: It's the same old, same old. Can't they come up

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Speaker 1: with something? Need just want surprise me?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and you're right on, Nancy. I mean, many times

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Speaker 3: you will see and I've reviewed literally thousands of police reports,

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Speaker 3: many times you will see sort of the progression of

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Speaker 3: the suspect realizing that they are going to be caught

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Speaker 3: in the lie.

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Speaker 4: So the lie.

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Speaker 3: Starts changing as the interview progresses. Now this one, I

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Speaker 3: don't know, but it appears to be changing according to

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Speaker 3: the officer's knowledge and use of facts with him, and

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Speaker 3: he begins to evolve, the story begins to evolve, hopefully

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Speaker 3: to get him off the hook. But that is very common.

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Speaker 3: That is not unusual at all as we see in

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Speaker 3: these types of cases.

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Speaker 1: And that is where Rachel D. Fisher comes in. Registered nurse,

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Speaker 1: sex Assault Nurse Examiner s a ne expert, witness, private investigator,

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Speaker 1: author of Taking Back the Pen, Forensic Nursing Consulting and Education.

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Speaker 1: You can find her at legal r inconsult dot org. Rachel.

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Speaker 1: That's when I need a rape kit nurse or a

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Speaker 1: doctor that performed the rape kit. But it's usually you guys,

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Speaker 1: the rape kit nurses. I call them. You're a sane

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Speaker 1: sex assault nurse examiner. How can you It's basically a

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Speaker 1: pelvic and for all of youse, I just saw Jackie

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Speaker 1: just like, uh, make an you face. Yeah, nobody wants

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Speaker 1: to go in for a pelvic but a rape kit

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Speaker 1: nurse basically performs a pelvic exam times one hundred. So

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Speaker 1: how can you look at a woman's private parts and

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Speaker 1: help shine a light on whether she's been raped or

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Speaker 1: had consensual sex.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, so it starts with the basics. When that patient

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Speaker 5: comes in after being victimized and they turn to us

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Speaker 5: and tell her story, they have to sign a consent

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Speaker 5: form for us to basically interrogate them, go to those

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Speaker 5: deep moments of traumas bread their legs, poke, prod and

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Speaker 5: penetrate them again. So we're collecting evidence in this rape

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Speaker 5: kit and it's a very vigorous, intense process, but they

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Speaker 5: have to sign consent for us to do that. So

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Speaker 5: the issue here is he sexually assaulted y rapeder without

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Speaker 5: consent and she had to go through that process of

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Speaker 5: penetration by a stranger again because of what he did.

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Speaker 5: And so that process that they go to coming to

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Speaker 5: the hospital is a vulnerable one and it's very invasive.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he's going to sign up for that voluntarily, But

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Speaker 1: what would you expect to see. I know, you do

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Speaker 1: a vaginal exam, you do a right combing of the

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Speaker 1: pubic hair to find out if the defendant's hair is

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Speaker 1: there or for any fibers or basically any of it

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Speaker 1: its you can find. You do an anal swab. Who

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Speaker 1: wants to sign up for that? Nobody an oral swab?

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Speaker 1: What would you expect to see in the vaginal or

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Speaker 1: anal exam that would say this woman has been right,

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Speaker 1: this was not consensual.

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Speaker 5: Do we look for any kinds of infection or injury

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Speaker 5: or cares. We photograph them as possible, but we swab

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Speaker 5: for DNA evidence and that is what goes into the

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Speaker 5: race kits. So if they're unconscious of they don't remember,

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Speaker 5: we just swab every area, the anus, the vagina, the

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Speaker 5: outer lits, the mouth, anywhere that could have been touched.

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Speaker 5: We swab and we go inside and we put that

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Speaker 5: swab inside those private areas and we look for pain.

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Speaker 5: So for swobbing, they tell us what hurts, and it's

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Speaker 5: guided by the history of what they remember happened. And

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Speaker 5: we'll take their blood, so we'll an iv in them,

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Speaker 5: take their blood, try to look for any drugs or

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Speaker 5: alcohol that was you, and then we put this all

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Speaker 5: in the kit and hopefully we're able to find DNA

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Speaker 5: from who hurt them. Sometimes there's foign objects inside them.

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Speaker 5: If it was done on the ground or in the woods, depending.

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Speaker 5: We look first things from the crime scene as well

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Speaker 5: on the patient's body.

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Speaker 1: So you can look with your exam into the vagina

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Speaker 1: and rectum and you can actually see tearing, blading, or bruising.

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Speaker 5: Yes it's not always president, but we're able to see

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Speaker 5: that when we put the speculum inside or if you

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Speaker 5: have to put anything into the rectum, you're able to

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Speaker 5: look for the jersey inside their body from what happened

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Speaker 5: to them forcefully.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I is.

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Speaker 1: I'm heading to Jared Page joining us in the Get

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Speaker 1: Part Daily and Salt Lake, but I want you to

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Speaker 1: hear our friends at crime online dot Com.

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Speaker 6: The alleged assault took place in a dorm room at

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Speaker 6: the University of Utah on August sixteenth, but the victim

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Speaker 6: did not report it right away. The official report was

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Speaker 6: made in February, with university police detective Francisco Chevez investigating

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Speaker 6: the claims. After talking to the alleged victim, Chevez spoke

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Speaker 6: to Ben Smith. At first, Smith denied knowing the young woman.

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Speaker 6: He later changed his official statement, claiming he did know

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Speaker 6: the woman and the two had consensual sex. Smith conceded

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Speaker 6: that the woman was in pain throughout the encounter. University

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Speaker 6: police did not arrest Smith at that time. When they

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Speaker 6: returned a few days later with a restraining owner, Smith

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Speaker 6: had packed his bags and left.

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Speaker 1: Okay, there's so many things wrong with what I just heard.

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Speaker 1: Not that they're factually incorrect, they're just wrong. His denying

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Speaker 1: that he knew the woman had ever met her, then

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Speaker 1: oh yeah, I did meet her. Did you rape or

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Speaker 1: know that was consensual? How can you go from I've

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Speaker 1: never met her to oh, yeah, we had consensual sex? Guys,

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Speaker 1: is a lot more than I can play in sound bites.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to go straight out to Jared Page joining

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Speaker 1: us Get Park Daily in Salt Lake City, who's been

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Speaker 1: on the case from the very very beginning. First of all, Jared,

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Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. I know a little

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Speaker 1: bit about this guy's background. Jared Page, take a listen

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Speaker 1: to ourcut one crimeonline dot Com.

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Speaker 6: After graduation, Smith announces he will attend the University of

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Speaker 6: Utah in Salt Lake City in the fall to pursue

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Speaker 6: a bachelor's degree in marketing. As a freshman member of

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Speaker 6: the university's diving team, Smith wins the men's competition at

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Speaker 6: the Air Force Diving Invitational. Smith finished up his freshman

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Speaker 6: year for the University of Utah diving team, coming in

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Speaker 6: second in platform diving at the PAC twelve Diving Championship.

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Speaker 1: Wow. So this guy, the alleged rapist, is a superstar Jared.

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Speaker 7: Yes, by all accounts, he was a rising star, rising

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Speaker 7: diver on the University of Utah men's swimming and diving

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Speaker 7: team and had a strong freshman season and then came

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Speaker 7: back this incident there. The soptomore season started in September,

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Speaker 7: where this alleged indident alleged date took place in August

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Speaker 7: or just before that. And again, as as you noted,

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Speaker 7: the woman did not come forward immediately, and he continued

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Speaker 7: to compete and competed as recently as February tenth. So again, yeah,

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Speaker 7: this was an athlete who was having a really successful

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Speaker 7: career at the University of Utah.

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Speaker 1: I mean, for petty Psyche wins right off the bat,

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Speaker 1: he wins the men's competition at the Air Force Diving Invitational.

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Speaker 1: Then he finished our freshman year coming in second in

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Speaker 1: platform diving at the PAC twelve Diving Championship. That's no

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Speaker 1: small thing. I mean, he is elite amongst the elite

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Speaker 1: in the university system, and when you hear about the

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Speaker 1: way they met, it's almost as if it's out of

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Speaker 1: a rom com, a romantic comedy. Take a listen to this.

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Speaker 6: After a strong finish at the PAC twelve Diving Championship

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Speaker 6: as a freshman, nineteen year old Ben Smith is ready

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Speaker 6: to take on his sophomore year at the University of Utah,

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Speaker 6: and on August thirteenth, Ben smith sophomore campaign gets off

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Speaker 6: to a promising start, finishing third in a dive meat.

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Speaker 6: Three days later, August sixteenth, walking with a group of

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Speaker 6: friends through a common area, he meets a young woman

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Speaker 6: reading a book. After a brief conversation, they exchanged contact

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Speaker 6: information and go their separate ways. Later that afternoon, Ben

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Speaker 6: Smith reaches out to the young woman.

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Speaker 1: I'm just thinking this through. I want to go to

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Speaker 1: Scott Johnson joining US forensic Psychologists, joining US out of

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Speaker 1: Minnesota specializing in sex predators. Also professor Florida Gulf Coast University,

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Speaker 1: and you can find him at Forensic Consultation. Scott, thank

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Speaker 1: you for being with us. You know, when I heard

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Speaker 1: about how the rape suspect met the alleged victim, it

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Speaker 1: reminded me. Let's see, it's a Meg Ryan Tom Hanks movie.

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Speaker 1: Oh wait, it's You've Got Mail. It's You've Got Mail.

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Speaker 1: And she owns a bookstore and he owns a bookstore,

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Speaker 1: and he always is like spying on her in a

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Speaker 1: loving and caring way, and she's always sitting there reading

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Speaker 1: a book. And so it's my understanding, Scott Johnson, that

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Speaker 1: he's walking with a group of friends, he sees her

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Speaker 1: reading a book. He goes over and they talk for

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Speaker 1: a while in exchange numbers. That's the meet cute, the

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Speaker 1: setup for a rom com, as they call it. Now

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Speaker 1: my question to you, Scott Johnson, is in a way

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Speaker 1: the way that they met without in that lower her

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Speaker 1: her barriers. I mean, it just seems so normal and

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Speaker 1: friendly and kind of romantic. It's not like he's trying

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Speaker 1: to pick her up at a bar and immediately make

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Speaker 1: out with her. It sounds so innocuous, which I think

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Speaker 1: would lower her inhibitions and lower her protective nature.

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Speaker 7: Oh absolutely.

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Speaker 8: And his narcissism with this, I think demonstrates that he's

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Speaker 8: a predator. He knows how to groom, he knows how

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Speaker 8: to schmooze. He can take his time to do what

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Speaker 8: he wants to do, to get the victim in a

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Speaker 8: vulnerable situation to, as you say, let her guard down,

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Speaker 8: feel trustworthy.

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Speaker 9: Right.

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Speaker 8: And so he knows what he's doing, but he's very

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Speaker 8: good at it and very good at putting her at ease.

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Speaker 8: And that's certainly psychopathic traits, you know.

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Speaker 1: Donna Kelly. Many of the rape victims that I've represented

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Speaker 1: and worked with, they feel like it's somehow their fault. Oh,

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Speaker 1: I shouldn't have been at this bar. I shouldn't have

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Speaker 1: been out so late, I shouldn't have been wearing a

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Speaker 1: short dress. I shouldn't have been jogging and tied sent

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Speaker 1: a workout, braw all. That's complete and total bs. It

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Speaker 1: is not the rape victim's fault. Ever. This woman was

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Speaker 1: sitting there, minding her own business, reading a book, but somehow,

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Speaker 1: some way, I guarantee you, on some level, she thought, wow,

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Speaker 1: I should have fill in the blank.

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Speaker 10: Right.

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Speaker 3: I've worked with probably about three thousand victims over my career,

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Speaker 3: and I can tell you that in almost every case

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Speaker 3: there is some of that going on with all the victims.

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Speaker 3: And my understanding from talking to experts about this sort

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Speaker 3: of feeling, this sort of response is that it's your way,

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Speaker 3: your brain's weigh of protecting for the next time. In

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Speaker 3: other words, you want to feel safe. You want to

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Speaker 3: feel like you're safe in the world. And so what

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Speaker 3: you do is you go back and you analyze and

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Speaker 3: reanalyze what's happened, and you think of ways that you

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Speaker 3: can be safe for the next time. And so that

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Speaker 3: kind of response is very common on the behalf of

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Speaker 3: sexual assault victims. They need to be safe and feel

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Speaker 3: safe for the future, and that's their attempt to do that.

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Speaker 5: You know, I think it's really in this case, right,

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Speaker 5: go ahead, Yes, so is briefly, so she was just

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Speaker 5: talking about kind of fight fly their free response, and

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Speaker 5: so fight flight or freeze is what trauma victims typically do.

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Speaker 5: And everybody always asks, well, why didn't she just run?

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Speaker 5: Why didn't she leave? And then the victims blame themselves. Well,

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Speaker 5: if you hold it out what society holds, So why.

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Speaker 7: Didn't she run?

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Speaker 5: You look at him and you say, well, why did

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Speaker 5: he run from this scenario? So use that same predicate

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Speaker 5: and why did he run away from it?

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Speaker 1: That's a really good art argument.

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Speaker 8: What about it, Scott, Well, I was just going to say, also,

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Speaker 8: you know, Both of these experts are right on queue

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Speaker 8: here with why victims blame themselves. And also the perpetrator

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Speaker 8: was blaming her. He was minimizing throughout, and he was saying,

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Speaker 8: I'm just going to do this, I'm just going to

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Speaker 8: do that, and so he's putting her in a precarious

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Speaker 8: spot where he's catching her off guard, and therefore she

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Speaker 8: has that delayed reaction. But regardless of how she reacts,

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Speaker 8: things are still going to happen. So he minimizes what

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Speaker 8: he's doing, justifies what he's doing. Oh, it's just a

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Speaker 8: little bit, or it's just.

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Speaker 1: This, you know what. You're all three, so right. Have

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Speaker 1: you ever heard the phrase wolf in sheep's clothing? Well,

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Speaker 1: listen to our friends at crime Online.

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Speaker 4: Nineteen year old sophomore Ben Smith messages the young woman

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Speaker 4: he met in the dorm common area. He asks where

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Speaker 4: she is and where her roommates are. Innocently enough, she

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Speaker 4: replies her friends are at an on campus event and

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Speaker 4: she is alone in her dorm room. Minutes after he

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Speaker 4: finds out she is alone, Ben Smith is at her door.

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Speaker 4: After some small talk, Ben suggests that to play a

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Speaker 4: game of truth or dare. Smith reportedly starts kissing her

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Speaker 4: and asking her about her sexual history. Smith pushes her

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Speaker 4: shoulders to lay her down on the floor. The woman

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Speaker 4: pushes Smith off of her and tells him quote she

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Speaker 4: does not want to do that and more. Even though

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Speaker 4: the young woman tells Ben Smith she does not want

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Speaker 4: to have sex, the teen swimmer reportedly ignores her, takes

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Speaker 4: off his shirt and pants, and grabs the woman by

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Speaker 4: the back of her head. According to an arrest warrant,

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Speaker 4: the young woman tried to push back up, but he

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Speaker 4: held her head down. She pushed Smith again in the

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Speaker 4: chest and told him no, but Smith replied, okay, fine,

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Speaker 4: Then he allegedly climbs on top of her, continuing the assault.

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Me With Me is Jason Jensen, out

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Speaker 1: of Salt Lake City, private investigator, owner of Jensen Private Investigations,

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Speaker 1: co founder Cold Case Coalition, and you can find him

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Speaker 1: at Jensen Private Investigations dot com. Jason, thank you for

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Speaker 1: being with us in this case. We see in increments,

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Speaker 1: increments leading up to a full blown sex attack according

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Speaker 1: to this victim. And you know it starts off with

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Speaker 1: the meat cute okay. Then he comes over, then he

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Speaker 1: finds out she's alone. Then there's the truth or dare.

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Speaker 1: Then there's the kissing, and then there's the grabbing by

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Speaker 1: the shoulders. I mean it leads up to a full

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Speaker 1: blown brutal rape. Very often in court. Some jurisdictions have

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Speaker 1: required corroboration, and I'm putting air quotes around that, in

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Speaker 1: other words, bruises, tears, broken bones, ripped clothing and the course.

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Speaker 1: A lot of courts didn't like that. A lot of

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Speaker 1: prosecutors like me, didn't like that because, as in this case,

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Speaker 1: it was so incremental. You don't have a broken jaw

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Speaker 1: or a black eye. It's like, you know, you you

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Speaker 1: slowly turn up the temperature and the lobster doesn't even

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Speaker 1: know it's dying. All right, it's too late. By the

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Speaker 1: time it gets hot, it's boiled. So now in many

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Speaker 1: jurisdictions there is no longer that requirement of physical corroboration

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Speaker 1: for a rape. To corroborate a rape victims story, and

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Speaker 1: think about it, no other you say you got arm robbed,

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Speaker 1: does there have to be corroboration?

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Speaker 10: No?

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Speaker 1: Do when your car gets stolen, do you have to

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Speaker 1: corroborate your story?

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Speaker 11: No?

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Speaker 1: Only in rape cases is was that required. And it

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Speaker 1: got to a point where here's what you use, anything

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Speaker 1: like I don't know the car mileage, the position of

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Speaker 1: the seats in the car, him loose in the bottom

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Speaker 1: of the store. I mean, you could use anything, a

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Speaker 1: button being torn off, anything for corroboration, until most juristications

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Speaker 1: got rid of that requirement. But rape is still rape,

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Speaker 1: whether you're beaten to a pulp or not.

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Speaker 11: Correct, Nancy, I mean, you look at the information that

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Speaker 11: was filed. The particulars are pretty well outlined from the

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Speaker 11: detective the progression of his interview, and you're right, there

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Speaker 11: is no evidence of an aggravated assault in the commission

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Speaker 11: of this crime, and it shows that he lured her

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Speaker 11: in and easter as he progressed step by step.

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Speaker 1: You know another thing, Jared Page, You know for many

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Speaker 1: many years, guys are not allowed email dorms. I guess

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Speaker 1: that's all over.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, that is that is true. And uh, you know,

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Speaker 7: and again as you mentioned, whether it's whether it's a

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Speaker 7: a dorm room, is is is your residence, it's a

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Speaker 7: place where you live, and you know it's it's It

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Speaker 7: was a situation where that relationship really went quickly and

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Speaker 7: found out that she was going to be alone in

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Speaker 7: her dorm room and took advantage of that. And and unfortunately,

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Speaker 7: you know, you would hope that your college students when

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Speaker 7: you're going to school, that you're safe in your dorm room.

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Speaker 7: I mean that should be a place that you consider

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Speaker 7: home and a place of safety.

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Speaker 1: Guys, I want you to hear more of what we

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Speaker 1: uncovered during the investigation. Jack Let's play our cut eight

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Speaker 1: our friends at crime Online.

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Speaker 4: During his interview with Detective Chavez, Smith gave the officer

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Speaker 4: the names of two of his friends to talk to

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Speaker 4: and find out about his character. Smith assumed his friends

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Speaker 4: would paint a flattering picture, but instead they provided insight

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Speaker 4: into a possible sexual predator. The first friend said that

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Speaker 4: Smith keeps a list of women he has sex with

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Speaker 4: and shares the list with people to show off and

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Speaker 4: to quote feed his ego. The other friend told police

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Speaker 4: that Smith brags about the number of women he's had

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Speaker 4: sex with.

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Speaker 1: Okay, well, that didn't help out very much to Jared

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Speaker 1: Page joining us in the get part daily there in

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Speaker 1: Salt Lake City. So to try to show what a

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Speaker 1: great guy he is, the suspect, Benjamin is it Smith

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Speaker 1: or Smith?

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Speaker 7: I believe it is just Smith because it's spelled with

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Speaker 7: a why it is still with the y.

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Speaker 11: Yes?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Benjamin Smith says, Hey, I'm a great guy. Here

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Speaker 1: are two of my friends. Ask them. I'm really surprised

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Speaker 1: the investigators even asked them, but they did. They go

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Speaker 1: and ask them for a glowing recommendation to Jared Page

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Speaker 1: and they get the exact opposite.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, if I'm interesting too that his character would some

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Speaker 7: of the ones that kind of added him as being

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Speaker 7: somebody who bragged about it conquests and kept a list

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Speaker 7: and kind of that you know, fraternity like atmosphere that

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Speaker 7: you know that I know a lot of the college

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Speaker 7: athletic programs are not are trying to keep out of

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Speaker 7: their locker rooms and this day and for certainly these days,

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Speaker 7: and I think the university does a good job of that.

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Speaker 7: But yeah, it's his his own character. Witnesses let people

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Speaker 7: know that this was this guy, this is what he does.

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Speaker 7: And he told police he also bragged about being the

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Speaker 7: first time for a lot of women, how he enjoyed that.

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Speaker 1: What why Manute? What did you just say?

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Speaker 7: Yeah? I just noticed in the police documents that we

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Speaker 7: obtained during the interview, he had said that he often

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Speaker 7: has been first time for women, and that's one of

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Speaker 7: the things that he likes as part of a conquest,

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Speaker 7: is to try to be their first.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I'm just letting that so can for one moment.

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Speaker 1: You know what, I really don't know who to go

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Speaker 1: to on this one, Dona Kelly.

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Speaker 3: Yes, ma'am.

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Speaker 1: You know that's uh, that's a first degree felony a

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Speaker 1: hole right there. I don't guess you've ever prosecuted one

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Speaker 1: of those, have you.

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Speaker 3: I have had some experience with that, yes, And it

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Speaker 3: really shows how he very clearly how he views women

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Speaker 3: as objects for his youth and discarding it really shows

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Speaker 3: that he doesn't think of them as real people. He

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Speaker 3: thinks very black and white. They exist for his pleasure.

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Speaker 3: And that was a stunning admission on his part and

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Speaker 3: also really interesting that he has very little self awareness.

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Speaker 3: You know, he believes that the names that he gives

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Speaker 3: the police officers are going to, you know, have this

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Speaker 3: glowing image of him, when that was not did all

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Speaker 3: the case, and so he has very little interest any

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Speaker 3: self awareness, and which is very typical of a creditor.

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Speaker 1: Scott Johnson for asic psychologist. What is she saying about

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Speaker 1: self awareness as it relates to this guy, Benjamin Dennis

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Speaker 1: Kai Smith.

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Speaker 8: Well, I think again it goes back to the psychopathic

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Speaker 8: traits of narcissism and really believing that whatever he does

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Speaker 8: is right, is in his mind delusionally it is okay

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Speaker 8: to do what he did.

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Speaker 1: List and what does he do? Put thee beside the

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Speaker 1: ones that were once sub verging for he got hold

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Speaker 1: of him, you know what, you kind of and I

436
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:44,720
Speaker 1: think it was you, Scott Johnson. But guys correct me

437
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:48,440
Speaker 1: if I'm wrong. That said the way he would say,

438
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:51,040
Speaker 1: oh just a little bit, just a little bit, just

439
00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:54,880
Speaker 1: a little bit, you know what, that's really airbrushing. What happened?

440
00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:59,720
Speaker 1: She victim pushed Smith off her and said she didn't

441
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:03,400
Speaker 1: want to do that, says the warrant. He ignores her,

442
00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:07,680
Speaker 1: removing his shirt, unclipping her bra then took off his pants,

443
00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:09,359
Speaker 1: grabbed her by the back of the head, forced her

444
00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:12,679
Speaker 1: to give him oral sex. She tried to push back,

445
00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:17,080
Speaker 1: but he forced her head down. According to the warrant,

446
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:21,199
Speaker 1: she pushed Smith's chest and was able to stop. She

447
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:25,639
Speaker 1: shook her head indicating no, and he replied, okay, fine,

448
00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:28,960
Speaker 1: I'm reading from the warrant. I'm not just making this up.

449
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:33,400
Speaker 1: He then after he said okay, fine, clombs on top

450
00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:38,399
Speaker 1: of her, takes off her underwear, saying everything's fine, and

451
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:42,399
Speaker 1: ignoring her objections that she did not want to have

452
00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:45,119
Speaker 1: sex with him, He says, what is this Something is

453
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:47,320
Speaker 1: supposed to make her feel better? Quote I won't go

454
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:52,280
Speaker 1: all the way in just a little bit. For a minute,

455
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:54,440
Speaker 1: I won't go all the way in just a little bit.

456
00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:58,159
Speaker 1: The warrant states Smith then forced himself on her. In

457
00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:00,840
Speaker 1: other words, he did go quote all the way in.

458
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:04,320
Speaker 1: When he was nearing ejaculation, he asked if he could

459
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 1: ejaculate in her mouth. She said no, so he ejaculated

460
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:12,920
Speaker 1: on her stomach and then wait for it, wipe the

461
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:17,320
Speaker 1: ejaculate with his fingers and put it in her mouth.

462
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:21,000
Speaker 1: After denying he knew her, he admitted he did know her,

463
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:23,800
Speaker 1: they did have sex, and that he knew she was

464
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:27,680
Speaker 1: in pain throughout. Now, can I tell you the first

465
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:30,280
Speaker 1: time I had to let loose his string of that

466
00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:33,320
Speaker 1: kind of talk, with every curse word I have ever

467
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:35,960
Speaker 1: known to a jury, I actually had to practice. I

468
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:38,680
Speaker 1: can hardly say it all. But you know what, if

469
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:42,960
Speaker 1: you want to put somebody in jail, you got to

470
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:46,800
Speaker 1: have Let me just say the backbone to say it

471
00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:53,120
Speaker 1: out loud. Now, just to top it all off, he says, hey,

472
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:54,520
Speaker 1: listen to my good friends. He'll tell you what a

473
00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:58,800
Speaker 1: great guy I am. And they really unload the truth

474
00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:02,240
Speaker 1: on this guy. But I want you to hear what happens.

475
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:07,360
Speaker 1: Then our cut ten are friends a crime online.

476
00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:10,960
Speaker 12: The alleged assault took place on August sixteenth, but was

477
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:15,680
Speaker 12: not reported until February. On February sixteenth, the University of

478
00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:19,160
Speaker 12: Utah was made aware of the allegations when detectives went

479
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:22,000
Speaker 12: to his room to serve a restraining order. Smith's roommate

480
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:25,000
Speaker 12: informed the detectives that Smith had moved out.

481
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:29,600
Speaker 1: Moved out, Okay, now take a listen to our cut

482
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:33,080
Speaker 1: seven our friends at Fox thirteen.

483
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:35,600
Speaker 2: Police say two friends of Smith told them he keeps

484
00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:38,080
Speaker 2: a list of people he's had sex with to brag about.

485
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:41,200
Speaker 2: Police say soon after being interviewed, Smith moved out of

486
00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:44,040
Speaker 2: his dorm and returned to Canada. There is now a

487
00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:47,720
Speaker 2: warrant out for his arrest. Utah Athletics says they learned

488
00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:49,640
Speaker 2: of the allegation on February sixteenth.

489
00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:55,360
Speaker 1: Big question to Jared Page Get Part Daily, why did

490
00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:58,960
Speaker 1: they interview him? They knew the victim's complaint at the time,

491
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:00,840
Speaker 1: and then they let him go.

492
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:04,360
Speaker 7: Well, yeah, I am not so sure. The timing the

493
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:07,400
Speaker 7: police reports don't aren't great with the dates of when

494
00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:10,720
Speaker 7: the report came in, when he was interviewed, how many

495
00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:14,520
Speaker 7: many days took place. But yeah, I guess, I guess

496
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:17,080
Speaker 7: when they did interview him. He was not detained at

497
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:19,000
Speaker 7: that time because he was allowed to go back to

498
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:33,920
Speaker 7: his dormitory and clear out and head home to Canada.

499
00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:44,360
Speaker 1: Time Stories with Nancy Grace IRV Brandt joining me, Senior Inspector,

500
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:51,360
Speaker 1: US Marshall Service International Investigations, Chief Inspector DOJ International Affairs

501
00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:55,240
Speaker 1: as Department of Justice, has worked in embassies all around

502
00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:59,360
Speaker 1: the world. Author of a brand new book, I Believe

503
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:04,160
Speaker 1: his eight solo shot Curse the Bluestone on Amazon Earth.

504
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:09,800
Speaker 1: They hear the victims complaints, and yes, she didn't come

505
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 1: forward immediately, not unusual. She did come forward. She told

506
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:17,920
Speaker 1: them what happened. They go interview him, they catch him

507
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:21,000
Speaker 1: in a lie, and they let him go when they

508
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:24,720
Speaker 1: go back to issue the arrest. Want he quote moved

509
00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:28,640
Speaker 1: out in other words, fled to Canada, helped me out?

510
00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:31,719
Speaker 1: Or why didn't they arrest him immediately, Nancy.

511
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:35,360
Speaker 9: On the face of it, you would it would seem

512
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:38,960
Speaker 9: there was probable cause for the arrest just from the

513
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:44,479
Speaker 9: interview and from the victim's statement, But the investigators chose

514
00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:49,320
Speaker 9: to take his statement and continue the investigation, and he

515
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:53,120
Speaker 9: fled to Canada, which is not going to help him.

516
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:59,440
Speaker 9: The US and Canadian authorities have a great working relationship,

517
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:03,880
Speaker 9: whether it's the Royal Canadian Mounted Police for the Vancouver Police,

518
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:08,480
Speaker 9: and there's an extradition treaty, a strong extradition treaty and

519
00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:14,200
Speaker 9: police where we can extradite Canadian citizens. So he's not

520
00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:16,400
Speaker 9: going to escape justice by any means.

521
00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:18,600
Speaker 1: I can't wait to tell a Jerry about him fleeing

522
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:20,760
Speaker 1: to Canada. Guys, take a listen to our cut nine

523
00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:21,640
Speaker 1: crime online.

524
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:24,000
Speaker 12: As soon as Ben Smith found out he was the

525
00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:27,480
Speaker 12: subject of a sexual assault investigation, he packed his bags

526
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:31,080
Speaker 12: and headed for Canada. A charging document mentioned Smith's time

527
00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:35,479
Speaker 12: on the university's diving team, quote Smith left school and

528
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:38,840
Speaker 12: returned to Canada. Smith was a member of the University

529
00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:41,920
Speaker 12: of Utah's diving team, and, according to the University of

530
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:46,000
Speaker 12: Utah records, was on scholarship. It says Smith's flight from

531
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:49,600
Speaker 12: the jurisdiction only after learning of an investigation into his

532
00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:53,640
Speaker 12: actions while enrolled in college classes as a student athlete

533
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:57,840
Speaker 12: on scholarship, demonstrates the strong likelihood that he will not

534
00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:01,280
Speaker 12: submit to the court's jurisdiction and, if released on bail,

535
00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:05,720
Speaker 12: will flee again. The document states, the charging documents request

536
00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:09,040
Speaker 12: that Smith be held on no bail if he is detained.

537
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:13,640
Speaker 1: So what is the easiest way for someone to get

538
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:19,560
Speaker 1: in to Canada to flee the jurisdiction? And how many

539
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:24,840
Speaker 1: more times will athletes college athletes get a slap on

540
00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:29,920
Speaker 1: the wrist for a full on rate? Does the name

541
00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:33,640
Speaker 1: brock Turner ring a bell? Take a listen to our

542
00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:36,560
Speaker 1: friend Matt and Gutman ABC and our cut fourteen.

543
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:39,880
Speaker 13: The public outcrank still soaring tonight over a six month

544
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:44,560
Speaker 13: sentence slapped on former Stanford University freshmen Brock Turner or

545
00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:47,520
Speaker 13: sexually assaulting a twenty two year old woman while she

546
00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:51,080
Speaker 13: lay unconscious next to a dumpster outside this front house

547
00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:51,720
Speaker 13: last year.

548
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 2: The judge is basically saying, you know, it doesn't matter

549
00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:56,080
Speaker 2: what your past actions were, just don't do it again.

550
00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:58,360
Speaker 1: I don't think six months was nearly enough. Yeah, I

551
00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:00,480
Speaker 1: would agree with that. Take a listen to our friends

552
00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:02,400
Speaker 1: at NBC cut fifteen.

553
00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:06,280
Speaker 10: With a hard push of the jailhouse door, former Stanford

554
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:09,400
Speaker 10: swimmer brought Turner was met by a crush of cameras.

555
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:10,920
Speaker 1: Are you thinking about?

556
00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:14,520
Speaker 10: He spent only ninety days in jail for sexual assault?

557
00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:14,920
Speaker 9: Are you?

558
00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:20,040
Speaker 10: NBC News was given exclusive access to evidence in Turner's case.

559
00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:23,000
Speaker 10: File pictures show him with a torn shirt hours after

560
00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:25,640
Speaker 10: he was tackled by students who saw him on top

561
00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:29,440
Speaker 10: of an unconscious female behind a dumpster on Stanford's campus.

562
00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:33,480
Speaker 10: Interrogation tapes taken after his arrest showed a calm Turner

563
00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:37,279
Speaker 10: responding to questions from a detective, saying, my intentions were

564
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:39,400
Speaker 10: not to try and rape a girl without her consent.

565
00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:41,520
Speaker 10: I was just trying to hook up with a girl.

566
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:44,920
Speaker 10: When pressing Turner about the victim, the detective asks, if

567
00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:48,239
Speaker 10: you saw her again, would you recognize her? Turner responds

568
00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:49,719
Speaker 10: probably not.

569
00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:55,239
Speaker 1: And then, of course in our cut twenty two from CBS,

570
00:34:55,640 --> 00:35:03,400
Speaker 1: how many college football stars gap rape charges? Take a listen.

571
00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:07,040
Speaker 14: The Ohio State University football players a Mere Reap and

572
00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:10,600
Speaker 14: Joson Went were booked into this Columbus jail late last

573
00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:14,680
Speaker 14: night after turning themselves in. The criminal complaint alleges that

574
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:17,600
Speaker 14: on February fourth, a nineteen year old woman was having

575
00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:21,120
Speaker 14: consensual sex with Reap when she stopped, stating she did

576
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:24,480
Speaker 14: not want to continue. Detectives say went then enter the

577
00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 14: room and Reap, after asking if Wynt could join, pushed

578
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:30,840
Speaker 14: her down by the neck, and the two men allegedly

579
00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:34,200
Speaker 14: raped her. Afterward, the report says, Reepe told the victim

580
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:37,560
Speaker 14: to say the incident was consensual on a video as

581
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:39,800
Speaker 14: he was laughing and she was crying.

582
00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:46,080
Speaker 1: Of course, many football supporters claimed the players should not

583
00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:50,680
Speaker 1: be in jail and that they were wrongly accused. So

584
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:56,160
Speaker 1: Jared Page joining us Erv Brandt, Rachel Fisher, Jason Jensen,

585
00:35:56,239 --> 00:36:00,240
Speaker 1: Scott Johnson, Donna Kelly, I want to hear your thought

586
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:04,160
Speaker 1: of what should happen now. But Jason Jensen joining us

587
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:08,200
Speaker 1: Utah private investigator, What do you make of the way

588
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:11,960
Speaker 1: the investigation has unfolded to this juncture.

589
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:15,160
Speaker 11: Well, Nancy, it really does look like there was a

590
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:20,600
Speaker 11: textbook approach by the detective from the university police department.

591
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:24,520
Speaker 11: And I'm not surprised, I mean, after what happened to

592
00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:29,960
Speaker 11: star athlete Lauren McCluskey in twenty eighteen, it costs the

593
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:34,800
Speaker 11: university thirteen point five million dollars after she was murdered

594
00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:41,200
Speaker 11: by her ex boyfriend. In spite of repeated the claims

595
00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:45,200
Speaker 11: of worry and complaints about her ex boyfriend's behavior to

596
00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:49,280
Speaker 11: the administration and to the police department, nothing was done.

597
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:56,040
Speaker 1: Guys, This student athlete Benjamin Smith wanted on rape, forcible sodomy,

598
00:36:56,480 --> 00:37:02,280
Speaker 1: forcible sex abuse goes on the lamb. What do you think,

599
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:08,160
Speaker 1: to everyone on the panel, and to you, specifically, Scott Johnson,

600
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:14,160
Speaker 1: why is it so difficult for university administrators to accept

601
00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:19,000
Speaker 1: that athletes commit rape just like all other rapists.

602
00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:21,959
Speaker 8: I mean, I think part of that is the idea that,

603
00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:25,480
Speaker 8: you know, people lie, and somehow we still blame victims

604
00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:28,600
Speaker 8: and we still hold victims accountable for so much of

605
00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:34,640
Speaker 8: what happens despite the perpetrator premeditatingly engaging in violent behavior.

606
00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:38,320
Speaker 8: And the second piece, of course, is the liability aspect.

607
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:42,440
Speaker 8: If we have someone on our campus that's committing violent acts,

608
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:48,000
Speaker 8: if we didn't act quick enough, obviously we're liable. But

609
00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:49,960
Speaker 8: if we act too quick and it turns out not

610
00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:53,719
Speaker 8: to be true, then whose rights did we violate? When

611
00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:56,359
Speaker 8: in fact they should be saying, bottom line as we

612
00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:59,640
Speaker 8: protect the campus first and let the investigation fall where

613
00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:00,880
Speaker 8: it falls.

614
00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:02,920
Speaker 1: To Jared Page joining us Skip Part daily in Salt

615
00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:06,200
Speaker 1: Lake City. Do we have any idea of where he's

616
00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:08,120
Speaker 1: been hiding out in Canada?

617
00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:13,719
Speaker 7: Well, he's he is from British Columbia, and so I

618
00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:17,440
Speaker 7: know that's where. That's where he's listed in the charges

619
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:22,279
Speaker 7: and it's believed to be fled from and University of

620
00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:25,600
Speaker 7: Utah police working with the private investigator, that's where they

621
00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:28,480
Speaker 7: located him. Found that he was in Canada. The details

622
00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:32,040
Speaker 7: about exactly where he was hiding and has been hiding,

623
00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:35,120
Speaker 7: but it was confirmed that he did across the border

624
00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:37,040
Speaker 7: and again he's he's home there.

625
00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:40,160
Speaker 1: Jared Page is joining us SKIP Part daily. We're learning

626
00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:44,440
Speaker 1: as we go to air that he has been returned

627
00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:47,279
Speaker 1: to the US or he is returning to the U

628
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:48,920
Speaker 1: S What the US? What do you know?

629
00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:53,320
Speaker 7: That's correct? So, according to Salt Lake County District Attorney's office,

630
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:59,000
Speaker 7: he was arrested. The location and circumstances of that or

631
00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:03,040
Speaker 7: are unconfirmed to me. Media reports have reported that he

632
00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:07,920
Speaker 7: was arrested in Seattle, the circumstances of which whether he

633
00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:10,560
Speaker 7: was caught when he was coming back across the border,

634
00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:14,200
Speaker 7: or exactly what took place, I do not have that.

635
00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:16,200
Speaker 7: We have reached out for more information, but we do

636
00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:18,799
Speaker 7: know that he is in police custody now, so he

637
00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:22,120
Speaker 7: is no longer hidden from police.

638
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:29,920
Speaker 1: We wait as justice un false. Goodbye for him