WEBVTT - Short Stuff: Killing a Dead Body

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<v Speaker 1>Hey, and welcome to the short stuff. It's Josh, it's Chuck,

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<v Speaker 1>and we're both alive for now.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I'll tell you what, buddy, if I was ever dead,

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<v Speaker 2>I would I would want you to make sure of

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<v Speaker 2>it by killing me again.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, but you'd be setting me up for a real

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<v Speaker 1>legal quagmire that probably would not break in my favorite Chuck.

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<v Speaker 1>So I don't know if I can guarantee that.

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<v Speaker 3>I wish I could do.

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<v Speaker 2>A good impression of the late actor slash magician, slash

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<v Speaker 2>kind of comedian Ricky j because anyone who's ever seen

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<v Speaker 2>the to my mind great pt Anderson movie from nineteen

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<v Speaker 2>ninety nine, Magnolia, it is great.

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<v Speaker 3>We'll recall and if you're interested.

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<v Speaker 2>By the way, our friend of the show, Josh's boyfriend

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<v Speaker 2>Adam Pranica, was on my pt Anderson series on movie Crush,

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<v Speaker 2>so we covered Magnolia and all the pt Anderson movies

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<v Speaker 2>before the show ended.

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<v Speaker 1>That is, I've got one even better than you.

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<v Speaker 3>What's that.

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<v Speaker 2>Are?

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<v Speaker 1>Another friend of the show, Paul F. Tompkins.

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<v Speaker 3>P F.

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<v Speaker 1>Tompkins, not pt Anderson. He did a script reading for

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<v Speaker 1>Magnolia at the table with all the actors and apparently

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<v Speaker 1>was not doing well enough for Tom Cruise not to

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<v Speaker 1>say something like can we keep getting this right or

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<v Speaker 1>something that's a hilarious sorry, I've never heard where Tom

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<v Speaker 1>Cruise is essentially like being mean to PF. Tompkins for

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<v Speaker 1>not doing good job script reading.

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<v Speaker 2>Well that I sort of like Tom Cruise until then

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<v Speaker 2>because Pauluck Tompkins is a national treasure and he was

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<v Speaker 2>actually in the movie There will be Blood because I

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<v Speaker 2>don't know, maybe he did such a good job at

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<v Speaker 2>that table reading.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, that's another pt Anderson film, right, yeah, where

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<v Speaker 1>he goes I'm done with drinking milkshake or something.

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<v Speaker 3>That's it. I don't want any more milkshake, thank you.

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<v Speaker 3>I think it's the line.

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<v Speaker 1>Why are we talking about Magnolia.

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<v Speaker 2>Because once again, at the beginning of that movie, there's

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<v Speaker 2>a series of vignettes. Ricky Jay narrates them, and the

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<v Speaker 2>first I think it's the first one I don't recall,

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<v Speaker 2>but it's it's a very kind of cool sequence where

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<v Speaker 2>there's this story is told where a guy named Sidney

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<v Speaker 2>Barringer attempted suicide but it became a suicide. The long

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<v Speaker 2>and short of it is he jumped out of a

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<v Speaker 2>window his parents lived in the apartment or in an

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<v Speaker 2>apartment below him, and as he jumped and was falling

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<v Speaker 2>to what he thought would be his death, his mom

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<v Speaker 2>and dad got into an argument. His mom aims a

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<v Speaker 2>shotgun at the dad, the gun goes off, It goes

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<v Speaker 2>through the window, missing the father, and kills the son

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<v Speaker 2>on his way down to land. The guy didn't know

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<v Speaker 2>this when he went to jump off the building, but

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<v Speaker 2>there was a net down there that would have caught

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<v Speaker 2>him and saved his life.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so it went from him taking his own life

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<v Speaker 1>to his mom murdering him, to his suicide being ruled

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<v Speaker 1>an attempted one. He couldn't have completed it because of

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<v Speaker 1>that net. But it gets even crazier because when the

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<v Speaker 1>police show up, the mom and dad say, we have

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<v Speaker 1>no idea how this shotgun was loaded. We use it

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<v Speaker 1>to threaten one another all the time, so we know

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<v Speaker 1>not to load it. And upon more investigation, they found

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<v Speaker 1>that Sydney had loaded it. So he loaded the gun

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<v Speaker 1>that killed him, and so the medical examiner ruled it

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<v Speaker 1>a suicide.

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<v Speaker 2>After all, that's right, This story is not true, as

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<v Speaker 2>it turns out, it was based on the story of

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<v Speaker 2>Ronald Opus, which came from an oral story of the

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<v Speaker 2>President of the American Academy of Forensic Sciences, Don Harper Mills,

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<v Speaker 2>in nineteen eighty seven.

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<v Speaker 3>He told the story at a banquet.

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<v Speaker 2>Eventually found its way to the Internet, but Mills maintains

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<v Speaker 2>that he made it up to illustrate how turning up

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<v Speaker 2>new evidence can completely alter the outcome of a coroner's ruling.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, And it's a really good example of just how

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<v Speaker 1>strange turns of events in evidence collection can completely alter

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<v Speaker 1>a medical examiner's ruling on the cause of death. And

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<v Speaker 1>that also applies to an entirely like niche I guess

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<v Speaker 1>area of legal legal scholarship, which is can you murder

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<v Speaker 1>someone who's already dead? And it turns out it's not

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<v Speaker 1>nearly as straightforward as you would think.

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<v Speaker 2>All right, let's take a break, what a tease, and

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<v Speaker 2>we'll come back with more talk of boogie nights and

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<v Speaker 2>heart eight right after this.

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<v Speaker 1>Definitely should know.

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<v Speaker 2>Y s k as Why why s k as good?

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<v Speaker 1>You should know? So, Chuck, we were talking about whether

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<v Speaker 1>it's possible legally to murder a dead body. Obviously physically

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<v Speaker 1>it's not. And there's actual case law where people have

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<v Speaker 1>done something like this, and legal scholars, prosecutors, defense teams,

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<v Speaker 1>juries have had to sort this out, and one of

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<v Speaker 1>the best known ones came in France in nineteen eighty.

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<v Speaker 2>Six, that's right, with the death of Monsieur Wilkins. Monsieur

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<v Speaker 2>Wilkins got in a brawl with Monsieur Charro.

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<v Speaker 3>Is that right? Okay?

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<v Speaker 1>But I mean it's messieurs charrow What I say, monsieur?

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<v Speaker 3>How do you pronounce it monsieur? Really? Why is it

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<v Speaker 3>mon Is that all silent?

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<v Speaker 1>It's just the French doing their French thing.

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<v Speaker 3>So Monsieur isn't isn't anything at all?

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<v Speaker 1>No, it's monsieur.

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<v Speaker 3>I've heard of monsieur. I just thought this was a

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<v Speaker 3>more formal title or something. No, No, I know that's

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<v Speaker 3>it spelled in.

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<v Speaker 1>That's weird, that's the famous monsieur.

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<v Speaker 3>All right, So monsieur all right.

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<v Speaker 2>So Monsieur Charro was in this brawl with Monsieur Wilkins.

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<v Speaker 2>Wilkins was knocked unconscious by an iron bar by Monsieur Charro,

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<v Speaker 2>and then Monsieur Charro used that same iron bar to

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<v Speaker 2>strangle Monsieur Wilkins. The next day, another dude, Monsieur Pied

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<v Speaker 2>deer Rot came along and it was like, Hey, this

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<v Speaker 2>Wilkins guy's still alive, and so I'm gonna I'm gonna

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<v Speaker 2>beat him to death with a glass bottle and strangle

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<v Speaker 2>him just to make sure that he's dead. The medical

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<v Speaker 2>examiner found that Chirou had actually killed him, so he

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<v Speaker 2>was dead. So then the question remains what happens to

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<v Speaker 2>Pederot when he commits this seeming active murder on a

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<v Speaker 2>dead body?

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<v Speaker 1>Right, So there's an actual answer for this, And before

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<v Speaker 1>we get to the answer, we have to talk about

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<v Speaker 1>a couple of illegal things in another case. Yes, okay,

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<v Speaker 1>so the people who are arguing against Pedderow's guilt, so say,

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<v Speaker 1>his defense team said he cannot be charged with murder

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<v Speaker 1>or even attempted murder because murdering Monsieur Wilkins was a

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<v Speaker 1>legal impossibility. It was impossible for him to complete this act,

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<v Speaker 1>which means that he can't possibly be guilty of it.

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<v Speaker 1>And that was apparently a longstanding idea in law of

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<v Speaker 1>this idea of a legal impossibility and guilt, right, And

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<v Speaker 1>so some people said, Okay, that's actually a pretty good explanation.

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<v Speaker 1>I think he might not be guilty, and other people said, wait, wait, wait,

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<v Speaker 1>forget this legal impossibility, mumbo jumbo. What we think is

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<v Speaker 1>more important is intent. What did he intend to do?

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<v Speaker 1>He thought that Willikins was still alive when he tried

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<v Speaker 1>to murder him, so his intent was to murder this man.

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<v Speaker 1>Therefore he's guilty of attempt to murder. And everybody said,

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<v Speaker 1>what to do, what to do? Sacrobo, that's right.

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<v Speaker 3>I thought that was sacred blow.

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<v Speaker 2>So they said we must look to see if there's

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<v Speaker 2>any precedent that was in the eighties. And I don't

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<v Speaker 2>know if they actually looked at the American case or not,

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<v Speaker 2>because you can't really say president on someone else's country, right.

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<v Speaker 1>No, No, it's not precedent necessary, but I think like

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<v Speaker 1>it's out there. Sure, yeah, okay.

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<v Speaker 2>So New York City, nineteen seventy five, eleven years before

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<v Speaker 2>the French incident, as it's known by me only, there

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<v Speaker 2>were some dudes drinking and an apartment. Three guys drinking.

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<v Speaker 2>The guy's apartment was Michael Geller and another guy, Joe Bush,

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<v Speaker 2>had been staying there kind of free loading, staying with

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<v Speaker 2>the guy, and they're sitting there getting a little more drunk. Obviously,

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<v Speaker 2>some hot heads. Hot heads kind of guys, and Geller

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<v Speaker 2>started saying like, hey, dude, you've been crashing here. I

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<v Speaker 2>need some rent. Why don't you start chipping in on rent.

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<v Speaker 2>This thing escalated such that Bush eventually shot him three

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<v Speaker 2>times in the chest and the guy falls to the floor.

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<v Speaker 2>And then the third guy comes in, Melvin Dlugash, and

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<v Speaker 2>stands over Geller and fires five more shots into his head.

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<v Speaker 2>Both of these guys are charged, obviously with murder, but

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<v Speaker 2>once again, Delugash his was, Hey, this guy was already dead,

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<v Speaker 2>or at least you can't prove that he was alive

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<v Speaker 2>when I shot him five times in the head. He

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<v Speaker 2>wasn't initially convicted of murder, but it was overturned, saying

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<v Speaker 2>that you can't prove that he was dead, so you

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<v Speaker 2>can't charge me with.

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<v Speaker 1>Murder, right, And I just want to say, this seems

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<v Speaker 1>like a fairly shocking crime. But this took place while

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<v Speaker 1>there's still lead in America's gasoline. Yeah, so, yeah, like

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<v Speaker 1>you said, blue Gash, that's the best way you could

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<v Speaker 1>say that horrible name. Yeah, he got off because, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>the prosecution couldn't prove that Geller was still alive, and

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<v Speaker 1>New York Supreme Courts had done up not so fast.

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<v Speaker 1>It doesn't matter whether Geller was still alive. You thought

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<v Speaker 1>he might have still been alive, which is why you

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<v Speaker 1>shot him five times in the head. And we're going

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<v Speaker 1>to throw out this idea of legal impossibility and adopt

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<v Speaker 1>basically a new framework, or at least we're going to

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<v Speaker 1>take an existing framework and basically make it the framework,

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<v Speaker 1>which is intent. Yeah, that is that, like, what you

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<v Speaker 1>intended to do determines your guilt or innocence, not the

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<v Speaker 1>actual fact or possibility of whether you could have done

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<v Speaker 1>what you were trying to do.

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<v Speaker 3>Right.

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<v Speaker 2>Specifically, the charge is attempted murder. What you can't do

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<v Speaker 2>is charge somebody with murder, right, because you can't murder

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<v Speaker 2>a corpse. It's just not scientifically. Forget legally it's not

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<v Speaker 2>scientifically possible, right, kill something that is already dead. But

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<v Speaker 2>attempted murder you certainly can. So the French High Court

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<v Speaker 2>weighs in on the Pardrieux case with monsieur.

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<v Speaker 1>What a dope this is? This is an an instant

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<v Speaker 1>classic because of that, and.

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<v Speaker 2>They came to the same conclusion and they said, all right,

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<v Speaker 2>you're guilty of attempted murder. Then, because our friend the

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<v Speaker 2>Yanks across the pond. They informed our opinion on this.

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<v Speaker 1>Perhaps, yeah, perhaps, so there's at least one more that

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<v Speaker 1>we want to call out. This actually happens with surprising frequency.

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<v Speaker 1>I would not think that there would be more than

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<v Speaker 1>one or two cases, but there are some here there.

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<v Speaker 1>One that I saw was that it's sometimes used to

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<v Speaker 1>prosecute cops who shoot people a bunch of times. There

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<v Speaker 1>was a cop in Toronto who a guy came at

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<v Speaker 1>with a knife and he shot him three times and

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<v Speaker 1>the guy dropped, and then he went up and shot

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<v Speaker 1>him a bunch more times when the guy was on

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<v Speaker 1>the ground, and the jury said, nope, that was illegal murder.

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<v Speaker 1>We can't convict you of murder because this is in

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<v Speaker 1>the line of duty and it was the bullets after

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<v Speaker 1>the shots. After that, we can now convict you of

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<v Speaker 1>attempted murder.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>It also happened to our dear friends in Australia in

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<v Speaker 2>the case of what looks like a mercy killing in

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<v Speaker 2>twenty fourteen near one of our favorite cities, Melbourne. Two guys,

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<v Speaker 2>Daniel Darrington and Rocky Spartacus Matt Scassey what a name. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>they got in a fight. We're struggling over a gun.

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<v Speaker 2>The gun went off, well, I was about to say killed.

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<v Speaker 2>It struck Matt Scassie in the head. His bodies on

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<v Speaker 2>the ground, twitching around and stuff, and Darrington shoots him.

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<v Speaker 2>He's like, hey, I don't want this guy, and the

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<v Speaker 2>quote was didn't want the blokes suffering and killed him

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<v Speaker 2>for sure, then went back got more bullets and then

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<v Speaker 2>shot him again. And he was charged with murder. And

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<v Speaker 2>the jury said, you know, we can't find him guilty

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<v Speaker 2>because the prosecution didn't kill that you intended to kill

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<v Speaker 2>him when the gun went off to begin.

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<v Speaker 1>With, right, But they did find guilty of attempted murder

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<v Speaker 1>because he demonstrated quite clearly that he thought Matt's Cassie

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<v Speaker 1>was still alive and shot him to kill him. However

0:12:47.080 --> 0:12:51.080
<v Speaker 1>merciful the act was supposed to be. And he got

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<v Speaker 1>convicted of attempted murder for that one.

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<v Speaker 3>Wow.

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<v Speaker 1>Had I not had he not tried to be merciful

0:12:58.600 --> 0:13:01.920
<v Speaker 1>and put Matt's Cassie out of his misery and just

0:13:02.000 --> 0:13:05.880
<v Speaker 1>the initial shot had killed them, he wouldn't have been

0:13:05.880 --> 0:13:07.160
<v Speaker 1>convicted of anything at all.

0:13:07.360 --> 0:13:09.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it would have been I guess a struggle, maybe

0:13:09.960 --> 0:13:11.880
<v Speaker 2>even self defense. Who knows how they would have framed it.

0:13:12.080 --> 0:13:15.040
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, for sure, So I guess that's the that's the

0:13:15.120 --> 0:13:20.600
<v Speaker 1>takeaway here. If somebody is potentially already dead, call an ambulance.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>This kind of thing, I feel like is in movies

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<v Speaker 2>a lot. I feel like it often comes up as

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<v Speaker 2>like to prove your loyalty to the organization, like someone's

0:13:29.760 --> 0:13:31.679
<v Speaker 2>in there, like I killed most of them. You got

0:13:31.720 --> 0:13:33.600
<v Speaker 2>to finish them off so we're both liable or whatever.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh yeah, I see that a lot of movies. I

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<v Speaker 1>feel like, Sure, short stuff, I guess it's out.

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