1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:03,400 Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on 2 00:00:03,680 --> 00:00:05,519 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio and. 3 00:00:05,320 --> 00:00:07,680 Speaker 2: Welcome back to Coast to Coast George Nori with your 4 00:00:07,760 --> 00:00:10,400 Speaker 2: Richard blakemore with us as book enemies of all. 5 00:00:10,760 --> 00:00:12,399 Speaker 3: What made you write the book? Richard? 6 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:17,239 Speaker 4: I've been teaching a course on the history of pirates 7 00:00:17,360 --> 00:00:19,119 Speaker 4: at the University of Reading in the UK for some 8 00:00:19,239 --> 00:00:21,600 Speaker 4: years now, and it really came out of teaching that course, 9 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:25,520 Speaker 4: those conversations with students thinking about all these issues around piracy. 10 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:28,440 Speaker 4: And I freely admit that when I designed the course, 11 00:00:28,480 --> 00:00:30,760 Speaker 4: I thought, you know, people think pirates are call I'll 12 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:32,559 Speaker 4: do a module on pirates and there'll be a way 13 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:33,040 Speaker 4: to kind of. 14 00:00:32,960 --> 00:00:36,280 Speaker 5: Get into other more serious historical topics. 15 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 4: And actually the pirates took over the module in the 16 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:41,839 Speaker 4: way you would expect pirates too. 17 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:44,280 Speaker 5: They just proved to be so interesting that we end 18 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:45,000 Speaker 5: up spending all the. 19 00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:47,960 Speaker 4: Time talking about the way piracy develops and kind of 20 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:53,200 Speaker 4: key individual examples, and I think also the significant world 21 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:56,080 Speaker 4: history because it is a really important period in the 22 00:00:56,120 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 4: growth of international trade of connections between different parts of 23 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:03,280 Speaker 4: the world, and piracy plays a really big part in that. 24 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:06,120 Speaker 4: So having kind of taught that for a few years 25 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:08,480 Speaker 4: that was really where the book came from, wanting to 26 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:12,360 Speaker 4: try and share some of those ideas. And the starting 27 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:15,039 Speaker 4: point for the book and the module is that image 28 00:01:15,319 --> 00:01:16,840 Speaker 4: of pirate that we have in our heads that we 29 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:19,920 Speaker 4: spoke about at the start of this show. I'm kind 30 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:22,840 Speaker 4: of wanting to say to people, if you've seen pirate films, 31 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:26,120 Speaker 4: if you've played games, if you're aware of this image, 32 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:27,800 Speaker 4: this idea in our culture. 33 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 5: And you want to know where that comes from. You 34 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:30,280 Speaker 5: want to know the. 35 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:34,039 Speaker 4: Real history, You want to know the why is that 36 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:35,800 Speaker 4: one moment. 37 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:36,600 Speaker 5: That we mentioned earlier. 38 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:39,160 Speaker 4: Why do we think of pirates in this way when 39 00:01:39,160 --> 00:01:40,480 Speaker 4: there have been loads of other. 40 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:44,240 Speaker 5: Maritime plunderers throughout history. So trying to explain why this 41 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:45,679 Speaker 5: one period in history has. 42 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:48,840 Speaker 4: Come to be the image of pirates, why it's so important, 43 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:51,040 Speaker 4: That's really what I'm trying to explain in the. 44 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:53,720 Speaker 3: Book, Roger, where did the parrots come from? 45 00:01:54,600 --> 00:02:00,760 Speaker 4: The pirates? So I have not found any evidence myself 46 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:06,120 Speaker 4: of pirates specifically owning parrots. There's at least one buccaneer 47 00:02:06,360 --> 00:02:10,760 Speaker 4: called William Dampier who travels around on plundering voyages. 48 00:02:10,760 --> 00:02:12,280 Speaker 5: Whether he would have denied being. 49 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:13,720 Speaker 4: A pirate, he would have claimed what he was doing 50 00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:17,200 Speaker 4: with legal but he is sort of attacking shipping outside 51 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:19,440 Speaker 4: of the normal rules of war and things like that. 52 00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:23,160 Speaker 4: And he's also because he's trying to fashion himself as 53 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:25,600 Speaker 4: not a pirate. He writes a best selling book about 54 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:29,320 Speaker 4: his voyages in which he talks a lot about animals 55 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:32,000 Speaker 4: and natural phenomena because he travels around the world. He 56 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:35,760 Speaker 4: spends thirteen years and circain navigates the globe I think 57 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 4: three times in his life. 58 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:39,120 Speaker 5: And he mentions parrots. 59 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:41,600 Speaker 4: He mentions parrots talking in one of the places that 60 00:02:41,639 --> 00:02:44,120 Speaker 4: he visits. Whether he then owned a parrot, I don't know. 61 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:49,720 Speaker 4: I think that the way it becomes associated very firmly 62 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:51,680 Speaker 4: is in Treasure Island. 63 00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 1: Right. 64 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:55,640 Speaker 4: This book published in the eighteen hundreds, quite a long 65 00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 4: time after the moment of piracy in history that we 66 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:03,760 Speaker 4: are talking about, and Treasure Island is I think one 67 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:05,760 Speaker 4: of the other key landmarks here. 68 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:07,400 Speaker 5: It's the most popular book. 69 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:10,920 Speaker 4: I think it's there are more films and adaptations of 70 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:14,040 Speaker 4: Treasure Islands than there are of any real pirate. It's 71 00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:17,079 Speaker 4: been such an influential. 72 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:19,000 Speaker 5: Piece of culture. 73 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:22,280 Speaker 4: But Robert Louis Stevenson, when he wrote that he was 74 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:23,960 Speaker 4: inspired by Another. 75 00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:26,240 Speaker 5: Book, which was written in seventeen twenty. 76 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:28,360 Speaker 4: Four at the time the pirates were active, called The 77 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:29,519 Speaker 4: General History of the Pirates. 78 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:32,519 Speaker 5: It's very well known amongst people interested in piracy. 79 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:37,120 Speaker 4: It's probably the most influential book that historians use. And 80 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:40,720 Speaker 4: so although Robert Louis Stevenson was writing fiction with Treasure Island, 81 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:45,080 Speaker 4: he was drawing on these stories that were circulating at 82 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:48,200 Speaker 4: the time of piracy. And that's another big theme of 83 00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:51,720 Speaker 4: my book is that piracy is not just about what 84 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 4: pirates are doing, because whether you are a pirate or 85 00:03:54,760 --> 00:03:58,520 Speaker 4: not depends upon who your friends are, It depends upon 86 00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 4: legal issues, upon the stories being telling about you, like 87 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:06,040 Speaker 4: William Dampierre trying to tell stories about himself. And so 88 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:10,280 Speaker 4: the most famous pirates, people like Blackbeard and Bonnie, Mary Reads, 89 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:13,880 Speaker 4: bar Pani, Roberts, they are all featured in this book, 90 00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:16,360 Speaker 4: The General History, published in seventeen twenty four, and it's 91 00:04:16,360 --> 00:04:19,159 Speaker 4: from that book that a lot of these famous stories 92 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:21,920 Speaker 4: about pirates that then kind of become definitive and get 93 00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:23,680 Speaker 4: picked up by Treasure Island and so on. 94 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 5: Later. 95 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:26,680 Speaker 3: Were there any women pirates or were they all men? 96 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:31,000 Speaker 5: So that we know of two within the kind of 97 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:32,120 Speaker 5: period we're talking about. 98 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:34,800 Speaker 4: We know of two Anne Bonnie and Mary Reid, who 99 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:35,760 Speaker 4: again are very well known. 100 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:38,320 Speaker 5: They're discussed in the General. 101 00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:40,840 Speaker 4: History, and interestingly, they're the only two pirates who are 102 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:44,440 Speaker 4: not captains, who get their own chapters, who get their 103 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:47,880 Speaker 4: own illustrations. They're prominently talked about on the title page. 104 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:50,640 Speaker 4: So the writer of this book clearly thought that these 105 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:53,360 Speaker 4: two women made a significant story. 106 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:56,640 Speaker 5: That would appeal to readers. And we know for certain 107 00:04:56,680 --> 00:04:58,320 Speaker 5: that these two women sailed on. 108 00:04:58,279 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 4: A pirate ship, were involved in piracy, were tried and 109 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:03,640 Speaker 4: sound guilty of piracy, but were. 110 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:06,760 Speaker 5: Not executed because they both pleaded that. 111 00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:08,919 Speaker 4: They were pregnant, which meant that you would not be 112 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:10,120 Speaker 4: executed for the term. 113 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:11,640 Speaker 5: Of the pregnancy. And then one of them. 114 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:15,200 Speaker 4: Died in prison from a fever, and the other we 115 00:05:15,279 --> 00:05:18,479 Speaker 4: don't know but probably was not executed. 116 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:20,279 Speaker 5: So we know about those two. 117 00:05:20,080 --> 00:05:23,120 Speaker 4: Women, and it's interesting how in the record of their 118 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:27,000 Speaker 4: trial they do come across as really determined fearce, you know, 119 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:32,240 Speaker 4: more piratical than their male comrades in some ways. But 120 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:34,520 Speaker 4: then there's a lot of stories about them from this 121 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:38,240 Speaker 4: General History book which I don't personally believe to be 122 00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:40,960 Speaker 4: true at all, because there's no other evidence, and the 123 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:43,400 Speaker 4: way in which these stories are being told about them 124 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:47,640 Speaker 4: is really to try to make broader points about how 125 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:49,960 Speaker 4: women should behave and kind of saying that these two 126 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:52,160 Speaker 4: women are behaving in a really bad way. They're sort 127 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 4: of accused of being sexually promiscuous and all sorts of 128 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:57,680 Speaker 4: things like that, and so I don't think we can 129 00:05:57,760 --> 00:05:59,560 Speaker 4: take any of that to actually be true. 130 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:01,200 Speaker 5: The story worries about the two of them and their 131 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:01,960 Speaker 5: lives on ship. 132 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:04,640 Speaker 4: We know, for example, the stories talk about them dressing 133 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:08,359 Speaker 4: as men and hiding their identity, but we know that 134 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:10,080 Speaker 4: they were known as women from the start of the 135 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:12,320 Speaker 4: voyage or very early on in the voyage, so it 136 00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:15,360 Speaker 4: seems highly unlikely, and people outside the voyage knew that. 137 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:18,400 Speaker 4: So it really seems highly unlikely that they were actually 138 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:20,680 Speaker 4: pretending to be men on this ship and hiding in 139 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:23,000 Speaker 4: a way that the stories are told. I think there's 140 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:27,000 Speaker 4: also a really interesting point though, because the story of 141 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:30,359 Speaker 4: those two women is so sensational because people assumed that 142 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:32,279 Speaker 4: women didn't go on ships and they had to pretend 143 00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:34,520 Speaker 4: to be men, and we do know of other women 144 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 4: who did that, who dressed as men to travel on ship, 145 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:40,600 Speaker 4: but also women were traveling on ships, women were emigrating 146 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:43,640 Speaker 4: to the Americas, women were traveling on ships. 147 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:44,919 Speaker 5: They were involved in trade. 148 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:46,920 Speaker 4: They were you know, their husbands were sailors, or they 149 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:53,080 Speaker 4: were family connections. Sometimes they were investors. Sometimes they often 150 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:55,839 Speaker 4: we were talking about black markets earlier. Often women have 151 00:06:55,880 --> 00:06:59,760 Speaker 4: a really crucial role in selling plunder and other commodities. 152 00:06:59,839 --> 00:07:02,440 Speaker 4: So I actually think there's a much much bigger role 153 00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 4: for women in the maritime world than we normally assume. 154 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:09,920 Speaker 3: Was there a police patrol that hunted down the pirates. 155 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:12,640 Speaker 4: Usually not, and this is part of the issue through 156 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:15,920 Speaker 4: this period. Indeed, one of the reasons that plundering really 157 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:21,320 Speaker 4: develops is because imperial governments are happy to sponsor plundering 158 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:24,200 Speaker 4: because they haven't got their own naval resources. No one 159 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:26,920 Speaker 4: really has a substantial navy until the very end of 160 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:29,080 Speaker 4: the period we're talking about, and that's one of the 161 00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:33,160 Speaker 4: key changes that brings about that extreme surge of piracy 162 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:37,960 Speaker 4: in the early seventeen hundred that we mentioned. The empires 163 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:40,640 Speaker 4: in Europe build up much bigger navies, which gives them 164 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:44,480 Speaker 4: greater control. They no longer need to rely on piracy. 165 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 4: You get naval patrols being established in Jamaica, in the 166 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:54,240 Speaker 4: Chesapeake Bay. You get expeditions sent to Madagascar, but even 167 00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:59,000 Speaker 4: then navy ships are rarely as quick. 168 00:07:58,920 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 5: Or as maneuverable as pirates. 169 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:01,960 Speaker 4: It was I wanted to clarify, I said the length 170 00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:03,880 Speaker 4: of a football field. I'm at half a football field, 171 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:05,960 Speaker 4: and we were talking about the lengths of ships earlier, 172 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:08,680 Speaker 4: so so shorter than I had suggested, but sort of 173 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:11,440 Speaker 4: on the east coast of the Americas, even the smallest 174 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 4: navy ships can't get into the creeks and the bays 175 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:17,080 Speaker 4: and the places that the pirate ships can hide. So 176 00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:21,080 Speaker 4: often the actions being there are expeditions against pirates, but 177 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:26,440 Speaker 4: the expeditions are being organized by local colonial merchants in smaller, 178 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:29,080 Speaker 4: fast and maneuverable ships. So the expedition that captures what 179 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 4: kills black Beard, for example, it's led by navy officers, 180 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:36,920 Speaker 4: but it's actually ships from Virginia who are which are 181 00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 4: sent out because they have the kind of small and 182 00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:42,359 Speaker 4: maneuverable vessels. So there are efforts to crap down on piracy, 183 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:44,119 Speaker 4: but they're rarely completely successful. 184 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:48,199 Speaker 2: Is it conceivable that there was a wealthy individual who 185 00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:54,280 Speaker 2: fronted the pirates, owned the ship and did it for money. 186 00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:56,600 Speaker 5: Definitely happened. 187 00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:03,000 Speaker 4: It definitely happened on many occasions in the early in 188 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:05,840 Speaker 4: the late sixteen hundreds, that was the most common situation, 189 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:08,520 Speaker 4: right because, as I said, most people who were carrying 190 00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:11,360 Speaker 4: out plunder were trying to do it legally. A really 191 00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:14,600 Speaker 4: good example here is a guy called Lord Bellamont who 192 00:09:14,679 --> 00:09:17,319 Speaker 4: is the governor of New York in the sixteen nineties, 193 00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 4: and he invests in and bats and helps politically with 194 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:25,000 Speaker 4: William Kidd's voyage. William Kidd is again a very famous 195 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:27,760 Speaker 4: name in pirate history, and Kid is sent out to 196 00:09:27,880 --> 00:09:30,200 Speaker 4: capture other pirates. He's sent out as a pirate hunter 197 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 4: to the Indian Ocean. But when he arrives, I mean 198 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:35,880 Speaker 4: he always denies this, but he does turn to piracy, 199 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:40,120 Speaker 4: and by the time he gets back, political circumstances have changed. 200 00:09:40,559 --> 00:09:42,600 Speaker 4: What Kid did in the Indian Ocean as well known 201 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:45,320 Speaker 4: because of reports, and Bellamont is actually the man who 202 00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:49,240 Speaker 4: then arrests Kid, possibly to save his own neck because he's. 203 00:09:49,040 --> 00:09:50,400 Speaker 5: Been involved in this voyage. 204 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:54,360 Speaker 4: And Kid is sent back to London and tried and executed. 205 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:59,960 Speaker 4: But so investors in pirate voyages. Is all plundering voyages 206 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:03,240 Speaker 4: very common in that really extreme surge with black Beard 207 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:05,880 Speaker 4: and Bonnie and Reed Kaliko Jack. In the early seventeen ten, 208 00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:10,320 Speaker 4: it's much less common merchants. The laws have changed. Merchants 209 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:12,559 Speaker 4: might get prosecuted for themselves, so they're. 210 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:13,720 Speaker 5: More careful about what they're doing. 211 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:17,160 Speaker 4: But even then, some merchants are going to the Bahamas 212 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:19,880 Speaker 4: to trade with pirates, and black Beard and many other 213 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:23,839 Speaker 4: pirates actually get pardons from some colonial governors. I think 214 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:27,120 Speaker 4: black Beard is pardoned in North Carolina and then he 215 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:29,680 Speaker 4: goes back to piracy. So there are questions about the 216 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:32,880 Speaker 4: relationship between even black Beard and some of these colonial 217 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:33,840 Speaker 4: authority figures. 218 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:38,600 Speaker 2: Today there are modern day pirates Richard in the United States, 219 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:44,439 Speaker 2: for example. What they do is steal the cargo of ships. 220 00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:46,360 Speaker 5: Yes, yeah, so, I mean this. 221 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:51,280 Speaker 4: Is a really interesting distinction where we have this historical 222 00:10:51,320 --> 00:10:53,760 Speaker 4: image of piracy which is fun, which is in games 223 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:56,960 Speaker 4: and films and you know, theme park rides and everything, 224 00:10:57,280 --> 00:10:59,599 Speaker 4: but actually plundering at sea has never gone away. It 225 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:02,960 Speaker 4: doesn't stop after seventeen twenties, which is sort of the 226 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:05,040 Speaker 4: end of the period I'm dealing with. You still get plundering, 227 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:09,360 Speaker 4: you get spikes of piracy in times of war, and 228 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:12,679 Speaker 4: you see, it's very interesting to compare some of these scenarios. 229 00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:14,559 Speaker 5: So a well known example is. 230 00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:18,160 Speaker 4: Somalia in the early twenty first century, around two thousand 231 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:22,720 Speaker 4: and nine twenty ten, and there you have some similarities 232 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:25,680 Speaker 4: in that there's a breakdown of politics during the civil war. 233 00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:26,920 Speaker 5: There's an economic. 234 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:30,200 Speaker 4: Crash because the territorial wars in Somalia not being protected, 235 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:33,600 Speaker 4: so there's overfishing, there's very possibly dumping of materials, all 236 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:36,320 Speaker 4: sorts of things going on, and so fishermen in Somalia 237 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:39,120 Speaker 4: who can no longer support themselves turned to piracy and 238 00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:43,199 Speaker 4: start capturing ships. And again that kind of economic incentive 239 00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:46,800 Speaker 4: is a big feature of historical piracy. There's also, just 240 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:48,880 Speaker 4: as there was in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, in 241 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:51,720 Speaker 4: the early twenty first century, there's a big legal dispute 242 00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 4: in the United Nations about how best to deal with this, 243 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:58,160 Speaker 4: how do you who's responsible for stopping piracy, who has jurisdiction. 244 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:00,839 Speaker 4: That's a big problem in the tenth the eighteenth century, 245 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:03,040 Speaker 4: and still a big problem in the twenty first century. 246 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:06,680 Speaker 4: But there are also differences in the way they operate. Obviously, 247 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:09,720 Speaker 4: not just technology, but also ransom and capturing of individuals, 248 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:12,920 Speaker 4: which which does happen in some historic episodes of piracy, 249 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:15,560 Speaker 4: and a lot of these pirates in the present day 250 00:12:15,559 --> 00:12:18,559 Speaker 4: are also connected with sort of international gangs for finance 251 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:20,760 Speaker 4: and all sorts of things like that, so it's not 252 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:23,880 Speaker 4: exactly the same. But I think it's really interesting how 253 00:12:23,880 --> 00:12:27,880 Speaker 4: we have compartmentalized in our brains between sort of historical 254 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:30,160 Speaker 4: piracy which is kind of safe and fun, and then 255 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:32,960 Speaker 4: the presence of violence at sea still being a feature 256 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:33,600 Speaker 4: of life today. 257 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:38,400 Speaker 3: Did the cargo ships have armed crew members once piracy 258 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:40,119 Speaker 3: started really getting big. 259 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:46,520 Speaker 4: Yes, absolutely, so all merchant ships were carrying weaponry in 260 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:50,120 Speaker 4: order to prit themselves, partially because of pirates, but also 261 00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:52,200 Speaker 4: because of the maritime war. And I think this is 262 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:54,360 Speaker 4: another key point of the period the sixteen hundreds of 263 00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:55,160 Speaker 4: seventeen hundreds. 264 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:57,319 Speaker 5: There are more periods. 265 00:12:56,960 --> 00:13:00,120 Speaker 4: Of war between England and Spain, France, then Neetherlents, and 266 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:03,560 Speaker 4: there are periods of peace. And so first of all, 267 00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:07,079 Speaker 4: that creates lots of opportunities for plundering, and second of all, 268 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:09,359 Speaker 4: it means that merchant ships have to be protecting themselves 269 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:12,559 Speaker 4: whenever they're going to see But that also means that 270 00:13:12,559 --> 00:13:15,800 Speaker 4: they're very easy to convert to pirate ships. Right, most 271 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:18,160 Speaker 4: chips at sea would have had some kind of ammunition, 272 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:20,040 Speaker 4: So if you want to use that ship for plundering, 273 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:21,160 Speaker 4: it's quite easy to do that. 274 00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:25,400 Speaker 2: In the movies, Richard, the pirates would bury their treasure 275 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:26,960 Speaker 2: and then come back and get it later. 276 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:28,080 Speaker 3: Did that really happen? 277 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:31,680 Speaker 4: This is a really interesting one because I think the 278 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:34,720 Speaker 4: sort of yes and no answer. So we have some 279 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:38,439 Speaker 4: records that the General History that I mentioned is the 280 00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:40,559 Speaker 4: sort of very important book does say that one of 281 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:43,760 Speaker 4: the reasons the pirates like to operate in the Caribbean 282 00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:46,400 Speaker 4: is because you've got lots of isolated islands where you 283 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:48,880 Speaker 4: can bury treasure. And I wonder if that's where Robert 284 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:53,520 Speaker 4: Luis Stevenson got the idea for Treasure Island from. But 285 00:13:54,760 --> 00:13:57,360 Speaker 4: the book says they just do that so the heat 286 00:13:57,480 --> 00:14:00,079 Speaker 4: dies down, and then they would go and collect it. 287 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:03,120 Speaker 4: It's not like a stash in that way. It's trying 288 00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:09,439 Speaker 4: to use it to briefly, and all of the stories 289 00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:14,439 Speaker 4: about really large kind of buried treasure emerge later. Right, 290 00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:17,800 Speaker 4: So William Kidd claims to have stashed his treasure, but 291 00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:19,880 Speaker 4: he does that when he's about to be executed, and 292 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:21,760 Speaker 4: I think it's quite clearly an attempt to get off 293 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:25,880 Speaker 4: the hook. Other pirates who are supposed to have left 294 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:28,840 Speaker 4: large stashes of treasure, those rumors don't really start to 295 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:31,840 Speaker 4: arrive until the twentieth century. So it's possible that pirates 296 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:34,000 Speaker 4: were burying their treasure, but I think it's really unlikely 297 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:36,640 Speaker 4: that you're going to find a massive cave full of 298 00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:38,120 Speaker 4: treasure chests hidden away someone. 299 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:45,040 Speaker 3: What was the legal penalty for a pirate who was arrested, charged, convicted. 300 00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:48,440 Speaker 4: Well, execution is a very clear. 301 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:50,000 Speaker 1: Yeah. 302 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:53,720 Speaker 4: Pirracy carries the death sentence through this entire period, but 303 00:14:54,560 --> 00:15:00,320 Speaker 4: actually relatively few people are executed, partially because it's very 304 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:02,640 Speaker 4: hard to catch pirates, as we've been talking about with 305 00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:04,880 Speaker 4: the police action and that are the extent of the ocean, 306 00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:07,400 Speaker 4: hiding on the coastline, hiding in the bays and the 307 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:10,920 Speaker 4: inlets on the east coast of the Americas. So you 308 00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:13,200 Speaker 4: have to catch them first, which happens very rarely. So 309 00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:17,160 Speaker 4: most pirates that simply are never captured. Even when they're captured, 310 00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:21,360 Speaker 4: sometimes they get pardoned because these are skilled sailors, they're 311 00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:25,560 Speaker 4: skilled soldiers, they're people who are useful to the government. So, 312 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:27,960 Speaker 4: as I said, even Blackbeard gets to pardon before he 313 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:30,760 Speaker 4: goes back to piracy and has then killed in battle. 314 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:35,680 Speaker 4: But some pirates are pardoned and turned to government employment. 315 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:39,120 Speaker 4: And then even if you have not done that and 316 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:42,080 Speaker 4: you put them on trial, not every trial leads to 317 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:45,200 Speaker 4: a conviction, right, some of the most famous trials do 318 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 4: and those pirates executed. William Kidd is a good example 319 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:53,440 Speaker 4: of that. But there are legal difficulties. So in theory 320 00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:56,680 Speaker 4: it's very simple if you're a pirate, you get executed, 321 00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:00,480 Speaker 4: but in practice it's very hard to catch and then 322 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:02,479 Speaker 4: to prove that someone is a pirate. 323 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:04,720 Speaker 5: Because as we said, there's all these legal forms of plundering. 324 00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:07,960 Speaker 4: So some people, when they're put on trial, we'll say, oh, 325 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:09,960 Speaker 4: well I was doing it legally, and then sometimes they're 326 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:13,920 Speaker 4: actually acquitted. So again we have this popular image of 327 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:16,280 Speaker 4: the sort of the gallows and that of pirates, that 328 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:18,480 Speaker 4: you're hanging on the gallows of the port cities and 329 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:21,960 Speaker 4: on the River Thames, and that definitely happens, but it 330 00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:25,000 Speaker 4: happens less frequently than you might imagine. 331 00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:29,000 Speaker 3: What was that language for a pirate Churchard where they go? 332 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:32,120 Speaker 3: What does that mean? 333 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:37,360 Speaker 4: There are some theories that there were pirate language, but 334 00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:39,800 Speaker 4: the kind of are e Shuvinmi Timbers. I think that's 335 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:42,800 Speaker 4: something that comes up. The theory I've heard is that 336 00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:46,400 Speaker 4: an actor playing long John Silver in an early theater 337 00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:50,960 Speaker 4: stage had a pronounced West Country Bristolian, brit Or South 338 00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:54,720 Speaker 4: even ex sort of the British coastal southwest coast accent, 339 00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:58,800 Speaker 4: and that's where the kind of pirate actually was so 340 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:01,360 Speaker 4: popular that everyone then saw copying that to play pirates. 341 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:04,560 Speaker 4: Many pirates came from that part of Britain, so they 342 00:17:04,600 --> 00:17:07,280 Speaker 4: may well have had that accent, but it doesn't I 343 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:09,760 Speaker 4: don't think you started saying Arah when you became a pirate. 344 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:13,080 Speaker 4: Like I said, pirate is a career stage usually for sailors, 345 00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:15,360 Speaker 4: people involved in the maritime world, so I think they 346 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:19,560 Speaker 4: talked like other sailors. And it's a very international world. 347 00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:22,479 Speaker 4: You're English, Dutch, Spanish, French. You have some people who 348 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:26,199 Speaker 4: are escaped from slavery, so African African heritage. You have 349 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:30,960 Speaker 4: pirates in the Mediterranean from from North Africa and the 350 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:34,040 Speaker 4: Middle East. You have pirates in the Indian Ocean, plunderers 351 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:36,320 Speaker 4: who are who are from North and South India. 352 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:36,760 Speaker 5: From China. 353 00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:40,080 Speaker 4: So you know, there isn't really one pirate language, just 354 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:41,600 Speaker 4: because there's not one type of pirate. 355 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:45,400 Speaker 1: Listen to more Coast to Coast AM every weeknight at 356 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:48,680 Speaker 1: one am Eastern, and go to Coast to coastam dot 357 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:49,480 Speaker 1: com for more