Speaker 1: Yo. I am so excited that we're speaking at Podcast
Speaker 1: Movement for the third time, but this time it's Podcast
Speaker 1: Evolutions in our city, Las Angeles.
Speaker 2: And not only are we speaking at the conference, but
Speaker 2: we are teaming up with Spreaker, our podcasting network, to
Speaker 2: put on a very special mixer for female podcasters.
Speaker 3: The podcast industry is.
Speaker 2: So male dominated and we wanted to do something a
Speaker 2: little bit special for the female podcasters.
Speaker 1: That's right. The goal of our mixer is to empower
Speaker 1: and connect you with other inspiring women in podcasting. So
Speaker 1: whether you are starting a podcast, whether you already have
Speaker 1: a podcast, this is the perfect place to mingle and
Speaker 1: meet people in your industry. We're going to have drinks
Speaker 1: and we're gonna be kicking it answering all your questions.
Speaker 1: This is the time to get all that free info, girl,
Speaker 1: So make sure you click the link in our bio
Speaker 1: to our SVP for the event our March twenty third.
Speaker 1: That's March twenty third, Downtown, LA. We'll see soon. If
Speaker 1: you're a newly single mom, maybe you're divorce struggling, trying
Speaker 1: to figure out what you want to do with your life.
Speaker 1: This book by Christine Michelle Carter has changed my life.
Speaker 1: It's called MOMAF and Christine really dives in and shares
Speaker 1: her story about starting over, rebuilding her life, and choosing
Speaker 1: herself despite the odds being against her.
Speaker 2: MOMAF is real, raw, hilarious, and it's relatable. And you know,
Speaker 2: at Good Moms we love a real transparent story. Christine
Speaker 2: Michelle Carter is not only transparent, but she's inspiring in
Speaker 2: this book. I've read it over and over again. I
Speaker 2: love it and I suggest you read it too. It's
Speaker 2: for moms who are going through divorce, it's for moms
Speaker 2: who are struggling. It's for moms just need a good read.
Speaker 2: This is a great read and we highly recommend it.
Speaker 1: So make sure you check out mom AF today by
Speaker 1: visiting Christinemichelle Carter dot com backslash mom dash AF. I'm
Speaker 1: going to leave everything here in the episode description. Make
Speaker 1: sure you check out MOMY.
Speaker 3: Welcome back to Good Mom's Bad Choices.
Speaker 1: I'm Erica and I'm Nila and Happy.
Speaker 3: Wednesday, Happy hump Day, my love. How are you?
Speaker 1: I'm great? How are you?
Speaker 2: I'm good as tired, but I'm happy and you know,
Speaker 2: podcasting brings me joy.
Speaker 1: I just realized that the music is on. Sorry, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna turn it.
Speaker 3: Off with smooth jazz. Yeah, I feel like it's such
Speaker 3: a fucking adult. I'm like, I'm not.
Speaker 1: It's not smooth jazz. It's low fi cafe.
Speaker 3: It's smooth jazz.
Speaker 4: It's smooth jazz for our generation.
Speaker 2: It's low Every time I'm in my house cleaning, I'm like,
Speaker 2: oh my god, I'm such an adult listening to smooth jazz.
Speaker 1: It does feel very mature, doesn't it. I've got it. Actually,
Speaker 1: you know, this week, I am feeling very mature, feeling
Speaker 1: very like adult.
Speaker 3: Like like we have Is that what we were in
Speaker 3: those glasses?
Speaker 4: Yes?
Speaker 1: See, like like these classes, this is my adult. Look.
Speaker 1: We had a call with our bookkeeper.
Speaker 2: We have a bookkeeper, my accountant, So I have to
Speaker 2: call you back of a called maccnton.
Speaker 1: We filed our taxes on time.
Speaker 3: Someone filed them for us. That's the only reason they're
Speaker 3: on time, for.
Speaker 1: Someone who went through all of our finances and told
Speaker 1: us that we're doing good. We're bitch, we're doing a
Speaker 1: good job.
Speaker 3: Bitch, we're doing a good job.
Speaker 2: This is the most adult I've felt in my whole
Speaker 2: thirty three years of existence. I've been like having to
Speaker 2: pinch myself and tell myself, you're an adult. You're doing it,
Speaker 2: You're doing a good job. Your mom. I'm like, every
Speaker 2: time I forget, I'm like, I can't believe it. I
Speaker 2: was just a teenager yesterday.
Speaker 1: I know me too. So yeah, I'm feeling I'm stepping
Speaker 1: into my adult bag this week. We're going to New
Speaker 1: York this week. I'm bringing my kid and I'm going
Speaker 1: to do it mature mom things and business things. I'm
Speaker 1: bringing my kid on the work trip.
Speaker 3: We're going to meetings.
Speaker 2: Erica today was like, I wish we just had more
Speaker 2: meetings to go to. I'm like, who are we meeting?
Speaker 2: You're like, I don't know, like meetings at New York.
Speaker 3: I was like, we'll make them happen, make them meeting.
Speaker 2: No wonder, you're feeling adult like, that's why, because you
Speaker 2: want to have meetings.
Speaker 3: We're gonna get those meetings. But right now, I'm gonna
Speaker 3: the last thing we do with those glasses. We're like,
Speaker 3: gu's why we got a meeting. Can't wait? She's like, yeah,
Speaker 3: maybe MTV. This is literally what she said. I'm like,
Speaker 3: do you know some what over there? No?
Speaker 1: Nope, nope, I'm just gonna put it out there.
Speaker 3: MTV were coming for our meetings.
Speaker 1: I don't know what for what, but we're gonna be there.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 1: I think I've been watching Kanye West's documentary and it's
Speaker 1: been throwing me back to like EMPTYV two thousands, Yeah,
Speaker 1: because he was like breaking news Empty Remember Breaking News MTV?
Speaker 3: Yeah, TRL or whatever.
Speaker 1: It just like had like the like those like lights
Speaker 1: and it was like the solar system and then it's
Speaker 1: like being behind the person and it's like Kanye West
Speaker 1: producer just got in a car accident. I was like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, I remember that.
Speaker 3: Wow, my god. I didn't watch it just for that,
Speaker 3: just for the fucking just throwback.
Speaker 1: It's a throwback. It makes me feel old. Actually, I'm like,
Speaker 1: WHOA was this that long ago? It doesn't feel like it,
Speaker 1: but it was the wire.
Speaker 2: It was a while ago when he was like normal
Speaker 2: and cool and made regular music and it wasn't fucking stressful.
Speaker 3: I love him, I do love him.
Speaker 2: I just prefer his music from before before Black Skinhead,
Speaker 2: when I was like.
Speaker 1: I still like his music. I don't like his opinions
Speaker 1: all the time, but I still like his music.
Speaker 3: I like some of it.
Speaker 1: I think he's just ridiculous, but I love him.
Speaker 2: My baby daddy has made me like grow did not
Speaker 2: like Kanye because he just loves him so much. It
Speaker 2: was overkill for so many years of my life that
Speaker 2: it's not you, Kanye, it's my baby daddy.
Speaker 1: So it did make me sad for him though, because
Speaker 1: he was he was He was so like, he really
Speaker 1: needs his mom. We all need our mom now, he
Speaker 1: specifically really needs Donda.
Speaker 3: You called me, You text me that.
Speaker 2: I was like, what the fuck are you talking about?
Speaker 2: Erica text me out of nowhere? Kanye needs Donda.
Speaker 3: I was like, who, what the fuck are you talking about?
Speaker 1: He does? Watch it.
Speaker 3: I'm telling you.
Speaker 1: If you've watched it, you know what the fuck I'm
Speaker 1: talking about.
Speaker 3: I'm gonna watch it.
Speaker 2: I you know what.
Speaker 3: I was just thinking.
Speaker 2: Someone was like, yeah, his friend was just like following
Speaker 2: him with a camera for ever, and I was like,
Speaker 2: our vlog is going to make it the are you
Speaker 2: Hollywood East?
Speaker 1: One day someone will see these blogs. One day someone's
Speaker 1: gonna see all these videos on my phone.
Speaker 3: I swear to god, Conye did it. We could do
Speaker 3: it too. These videos are going to get publicated one day.
Speaker 1: Yeah, But anyway, Hello, Hi, Hi, we have a special guest.
Speaker 1: You guys, if you might have heard her giggling in
Speaker 1: the background, was.
Speaker 3: I not supposed to get No?
Speaker 1: No, no, no, it's fine.
Speaker 3: Let us rant for that long about nothing.
Speaker 1: We have special guests. We have Ebon Whitney here, a
Speaker 1: sexuality duless sex educator author. I've been like following you
Speaker 1: for a very long time. Oh yeah, so strange, kind
Speaker 1: of creepy, right, that's cool. So I know you.
Speaker 3: You don't know what I know you, but I do.
Speaker 1: I've been like watching your whole journey.
Speaker 4: Wait, how long have you been following me? Do you know?
Speaker 1: Probably like six years?
Speaker 4: Oh dangs, you've been through the journey.
Speaker 3: Oh g she did put me on. She said, you
Speaker 3: know this woman. I was like, no, but I like it.
Speaker 3: I'm going to stay here.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Maybe it wasn't like sick. Maybe it was like
Speaker 1: right around we started our podcast. Oh yeah, okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: you were doing like some workshops downtown or something.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, we tried to link up with you. It
Speaker 2: was like a vagina workshop. I was like, I want
Speaker 2: to go to that vagina.
Speaker 1: Workshold out because you're booked and busy.
Speaker 2: And oh yeah, and I was like, are they actually
Speaker 2: talking to the vaginas in a circle with each other?
Speaker 2: I had a lot of questions. Now it's all coming back.
Speaker 2: Were the women pantyleists?
Speaker 3: I need to know? I need I wanted to go
Speaker 3: just to see what was going on over there? Were they?
Speaker 1: No?
Speaker 3: Okay, yeah I figured that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but just get weird when everyone's pussy is out.
Speaker 4: I mean, I would love to do a workshop like
Speaker 4: that sometime.
Speaker 1: I'm sure those workshops exist.
Speaker 3: I'll come, I volunteer. Yeah, I'll definitely come.
Speaker 4: To Okay, good to know, sign out.
Speaker 1: Well, thank you for joining us.
Speaker 4: Yeah, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1: So this month's theme is mindfulness, and I feel like,
Speaker 1: I mean, before we get into it, I just want
Speaker 1: to say, with the famous it's mindfulness. Hello, Hi guys,
Speaker 1: you guys been listening. You know, it's mindfulness. I feel
Speaker 1: like you're a perfect guest for this because you talk
Speaker 1: so much about you know, your sensuality, and like in
Speaker 1: your journey, I've watched you really choose yourself a lot,
Speaker 1: and I think that that's so powerful and such a
Speaker 1: journey and difficult for women oftentimes. But before we get
Speaker 1: into that.
Speaker 2: I have a lot of questions. I'm so inqusitive, like
Speaker 2: I've been waiting for you to get here for a
Speaker 2: long time.
Speaker 3: Hey, well I'm happier here.
Speaker 4: I'm excited to bring on the questions.
Speaker 3: Well, I first, do you want to start with? Do
Speaker 3: you have an affirmation for our guests today?
Speaker 4: Yeah, audience, I mean the first the first thing that
Speaker 4: popped into my mind is I am at peace with
Speaker 4: my sexuality.
Speaker 3: I am at peace with my sexuality.
Speaker 1: I like that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, That's something that I've said to myself throughout my journey,
Speaker 4: so I want to offer it to other people.
Speaker 2: Do you feel like you've that's changed a lot throughout
Speaker 2: this period, Like you've gone from this to this, Like
Speaker 2: your sexuality journey I'm sure has evolved as you've evolved.
Speaker 2: We've been doing some reading and research on you. But
Speaker 2: can you tell our listeners how you started in this
Speaker 2: space and like what this journey has and how you've
Speaker 2: come about, because I don't think women have really given
Speaker 2: themselves the opportunity to explore the sensuality and sexuality and
Speaker 2: you really have, So like, how did this speakin?
Speaker 4: Yeah? I got started as a sex educator from a
Speaker 4: place of just like wanting to figure my sexuality out,
Speaker 4: like I wasn't thinking to myself, I'm going to be
Speaker 4: a sex educator. It was more like, why am I
Speaker 4: not having amazing sex? Why does sex still trigger me?
Speaker 4: And why do I still have sexual shame even though
Speaker 4: I'm in a loving relationship and there's really no reason
Speaker 4: for me to be experiencing those things. And at the time,
Speaker 4: this was like eleven years ago, there wasn't really a
Speaker 4: lot of information out there that really resonated with me.
Speaker 4: It was more like, if you have sexual shame, just
Speaker 4: fuck some more, and like that'll teach your body to
Speaker 4: not have sexual shame anymore by doing the opposite. And
Speaker 4: maybe for some people that works. It did not work
Speaker 4: for me, and I felt really frustrated that there weren't
Speaker 4: different approaches of like really down to the bottom of
Speaker 4: where that sexual shame comes from, what that sexual trauma
Speaker 4: could be, how to heal from that. And so I
Speaker 4: started just like working on myself and figuring it out,
Speaker 4: like carving out my own path to sexual healing, and
Speaker 4: I was doing it very publicly. I had a blog
Speaker 4: at the time where I was talking very publicly about
Speaker 4: all the things that I was trying and struggling with
Speaker 4: and just being very honest about my journey, and people
Speaker 4: took notice they were reading and were like, holy shit,
Speaker 4: you are speaking my story, which I didn't think. So
Speaker 4: I thought I was literally the only one that was
Speaker 4: having these sexual issues. And yeah, from there, just one
Speaker 4: thing that I say about this work is that I
Speaker 4: feel like it chose me, that I didn't choose it
Speaker 4: because I was just doing my thing, trying to figure
Speaker 4: my shit out. And I think other people found such
Speaker 4: a resonance with my story and really trusted that I
Speaker 4: could guide them into their own sexual liberation journeys because
Speaker 4: they were watching me do the very same alongside them.
Speaker 4: So yeah, I've been doing this work in so many
Speaker 4: ways since twenty eleven.
Speaker 3: So yeah, it's beautiful.
Speaker 2: I think I think a lot of women don't even recognize,
Speaker 2: Like did you come is your family religious? Did you
Speaker 2: grow up in like a religious background?
Speaker 4: Yes, so I grew up in purity culture. I couldn't
Speaker 4: really tell you this sort of denomination of Christianity we were.
Speaker 4: I would say, like it's a mix of like Evangelical,
Speaker 4: Baptist and Protestant. But I signed a purity contract when
Speaker 4: I was eight, so like that kind of gives you, yes,
Speaker 4: But it's.
Speaker 1: A purity contract for where I don't know. Okay, So
Speaker 1: a purity contract I'm them.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Speaker 4: So I wonder if people still do these, because back
Speaker 4: in the day they were all the rage. But a
Speaker 4: purity contract is a contract that you sign in your
Speaker 4: church that basically says you will not have sex until
Speaker 4: you are married, and your parents co sign it, your
Speaker 4: pastor you know, youth teacher whatever signs it, and yeah,
Speaker 4: that's what appears at eight.
Speaker 1: Do they even explain what sex is before that?
Speaker 3: No, it was like you're going to be pure and
Speaker 3: then yeah.
Speaker 4: I mean I think at the time I had sort
Speaker 4: of a faint idea of what sex was, but not really.
Speaker 4: I was like, Okay, everyone else is doing this, and
Speaker 4: apparently this is what I need to do in order
Speaker 4: for Jesus to love me and my parents to love me,
Speaker 4: so I'll do it.
Speaker 1: So that's so interesting. Our daughters are seven and like
Speaker 1: eight is approaching anytime, like very soon, and to think
Speaker 1: about like our daughters at this age signing a contract.
Speaker 3: About their bodies, it's about their sexual.
Speaker 4: It's weird, right, It's really weird.
Speaker 3: It makes me wonder who thought of this concept.
Speaker 4: Probably a man.
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3: Why are you even thinking of that?
Speaker 4: Yeah, probably a man.
Speaker 3: And who birth is? And then who was like that's
Speaker 3: a great idea.
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah. So by the way, that contract did not stick.
Speaker 4: I had sex for the first time when I was fifteen.
Speaker 4: But the roots of that, like the oppression of that has,
Speaker 4: you know, stuck with me because how could it not,
Speaker 4: you know.
Speaker 3: When you finally did have sex, not finally when you
Speaker 3: had sex.
Speaker 4: I mean finally is fine?
Speaker 2: Sure when you did have sex, did you feel guilt
Speaker 2: because of the contract that you had signed?
Speaker 1: Oh?
Speaker 2: Fuck?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean so this is it's such a complicated story.
Speaker 4: The first time that I had sex was actually the
Speaker 4: first time that I had sex with someone who I
Speaker 4: now know to be an abuser for me. So on
Speaker 4: the one hand, there was a lot of choice because
Speaker 4: I was like, I am fifteen, I am grown. I
Speaker 4: know my shit, this is what I want to do.
Speaker 4: We're going to get married someday. Like it was kind
Speaker 4: of along those lines. But then there was this other
Speaker 4: aspect of me of like I think there was some
Speaker 4: coercion involved. And I also because I didn't receive comprehensive
Speaker 4: sex education, it was more like abstinence only. Do not
Speaker 4: have sex. I didn't understand or wasn't taught about what
Speaker 4: a healthy sexual relationship looks like. So for me, hearing
Speaker 4: all these messages, you know, in my church and for
Speaker 4: my parents about sex's love, sex is love, sex is
Speaker 4: for marriage, I thought that if you are in love
Speaker 4: with someone, you have sex with them and that's it.
Speaker 4: Like there wasn't anything in there about consent or bodily
Speaker 4: autonomy or the pleasure of sex. It was just like
Speaker 4: sex is love, sex is for marriage, et cetera. So
Speaker 4: when I had sex, I thought I was coming from
Speaker 4: it from an informed place, but looking back now, I
Speaker 4: had no idea what the fuck I was doing. And
Speaker 4: that relationship was both liberating in the sense that I
Speaker 4: chose sort of to have sex, but also it was
Speaker 4: a violation because the power dynamic within that relationship was
Speaker 4: just not healthy. So it's it's very complicated, I mean,
Speaker 4: and I think it's that's a very important topic to
Speaker 4: touch on. Like as we're talking about kids and adolescents
Speaker 4: and sex and choice, I think that there isn't enough
Speaker 4: emphasis on for young women, Like I think we have
Speaker 4: this very rigid idea of like rape, you know, and
Speaker 4: even for us, it feels like if you use that word,
Speaker 4: it better be violent, it better be a stranger jumping
Speaker 4: out and.
Speaker 3: You and you better not use it lightly.
Speaker 2: And the reality of the matter is is like we've
Speaker 2: like we're women, first of all, we've been violated and
Speaker 2: like a lot even like hearing you discuss this is
Speaker 2: me thinking of my childhood and my sexuality and like
Speaker 2: just fucking because that's what people were doing and like
Speaker 2: I thought you were supposed to do and I wanted to,
Speaker 2: but like the coheresion, like the coherent coheresion coercion that
Speaker 2: takes place and you're not even acknowledging it as such,
Speaker 2: is such like so much to dig yourself out of
Speaker 2: an adulthood. I've been violated so many times in my
Speaker 2: life and just massage to do things I didn't want
Speaker 2: to do, and it's very rapey and like I was
Speaker 2: for a long time. I would never say those words
Speaker 2: because it's felt too intense, you know, like I wouldn't
Speaker 2: put that on that person because then they're a rapists.
Speaker 2: But like, yeah, we need to call a spade a spade,
Speaker 2: and like those are the conversations we should be having
Speaker 2: with our kids.
Speaker 4: Yeah, because that shit is real yeah, I really resonate
Speaker 4: with that. It wasn't until I was I think I
Speaker 4: was nineteen eighteen or nineteen when, funnily enough, I was
Speaker 4: talking to a guy that I was seeing at the time,
Speaker 4: and I was talking to him about my previous relationship
Speaker 4: that was just abusive, but I didn't think so. I
Speaker 4: was just like, that's what everyone does. And I was
Speaker 4: talking to him a little bit about some of the
Speaker 4: things that I was experiencing, and he was actually the
Speaker 4: one that was like, uh, what you just described as rape?
Speaker 4: And I was like, no, it wasn't because I said yes,
Speaker 4: and he's like, no, that sounds like rape. And that
Speaker 4: sent me spiraling because I was like, oh shit. This
Speaker 4: whole time, I thought that this was a loving relationship.
Speaker 4: We were together for three years. I thought that he
Speaker 4: loved me and I loved him. What the fuck does
Speaker 4: that mean? But yeah, I agree with you. I think
Speaker 4: we need to expand our understandings of what sexual trauma
Speaker 4: and sexual violation can look like, because I think a
Speaker 4: lot of folks are walking around traumatized within their sexualities
Speaker 4: and they don't even know it because they've been like, oh, no,
Speaker 4: that was normal sexual behavior. But it's like no, that
Speaker 4: that person was actually violating your boundaries and your autonomy,
Speaker 4: you know.
Speaker 2: And I think it like when that happens and women,
Speaker 2: first of all, like even if you don't grow up
Speaker 2: in a very religious background or you didn't have to
Speaker 2: sign a purity contract, there's still like a lot of
Speaker 2: confusion about our bodies and what we're supposed to do
Speaker 2: or what's acceptable, and like there's a lot of mixed
Speaker 2: messaging for young girls, and like it's confusing. You don't
Speaker 2: and it's hard to weed out your own thoughts about
Speaker 2: things versus what your friends are telling you in high
Speaker 2: school and shit, what you think you're supposed to do.
Speaker 2: You think you're in love, you think you're gonna get
Speaker 2: married to this person you're not going to see after
Speaker 2: fucking twelfth grade.
Speaker 1: But like, well especially now, I think even too with
Speaker 1: like social media, Like it's just so everything is so
Speaker 1: hyper sexualized too, that you get so confused about what
Speaker 1: you're where you're supposed to be at at your age,
Speaker 1: you know, and there is so much shame. I mean
Speaker 1: even thinking about I always think about like my period,
Speaker 1: Like when I first started my period and how they're
Speaker 1: really it was just like now you can get pregnant,
Speaker 1: and I was like, what the fuck, Like we haven't
Speaker 1: even talked about sex yet, which you mean like I
Speaker 1: can get pregnant, like you know, and I'm curious to know,
Speaker 1: Like after So, how now that you're in this space,
Speaker 1: your relationship with your parents so like do they accept
Speaker 1: like what you do? Do they understand what you do?
Speaker 1: Have you had these conversations about your past with them?
Speaker 1: Now I have?
Speaker 4: So I don't really have a relationship with my dad.
Speaker 4: That is by choice my mom and what I will
Speaker 4: say about my dad before I get into the relationship
Speaker 4: with my mom. My mom at first was very much
Speaker 4: against what I was doing. Both my parents actually were
Speaker 4: are they still married? No, okay, my parents separated and
Speaker 4: divorced like fifteen years ago. And yeah, so my dad
Speaker 4: he believes that what I am doing is absolute like sinful,
Speaker 4: like I am leading people astray down into the pits
Speaker 4: of hell. Like that's how he views the work that
Speaker 4: I do, which is really unfortunate because you know that's
Speaker 4: I mean, I don't know. I was about to say,
Speaker 4: that's not what I'm doing, but it's like, well, if
Speaker 4: I am leading people to hell, like join the party.
Speaker 4: My mom on the other hand, my mom was very
Speaker 4: much along those lines. She was like, I don't like this.
Speaker 4: Both of my parents are very Christian. My mom is
Speaker 4: married to a pastor right now, so she was just like,
Speaker 4: you know, the sex is not something you talk about.
Speaker 4: It's something that's private and Funnily enough, the more that
Speaker 4: I've gotten into this work, I actually interviewed her on
Speaker 4: my podcast a few years ago, and that was really interesting.
Speaker 4: I wanted to interview her because I was really interested
Speaker 4: to know what she grew up thinking sex was like,
Speaker 4: what her parents taught her, what her sexual relationship was
Speaker 4: like when she met my dad and she as a teenager,
Speaker 4: and all those things, and so this conversation was meant
Speaker 4: to just be very like chill and light and it
Speaker 4: was funny. And it was chill, light and funny. But
Speaker 4: she dropped some gems in that episode, and I mean,
Speaker 4: I'm happy to share them here because it's public, but like,
Speaker 4: basically she eluded, insinuated that her first time of having
Speaker 4: sex was a rape, and I didn't know that. Another
Speaker 4: thing that she told me, which was when I first
Speaker 4: had sex, I was fucking really really negligently because like,
Speaker 4: no one told me. It's important to use a condom.
Speaker 4: I had a pregnancy scare when I was like sixteen,
Speaker 4: and I told my mom because I was freaking out.
Speaker 4: I was late for like I think two and a
Speaker 4: half weeks. I was like, please don't tell my dad,
Speaker 4: Please don't tell my dad, like I promise I'll never
Speaker 4: have sex again. And somehow she did she told my dad.
Speaker 4: My dad was so furious with me. He didn't speak
Speaker 4: to me for two weeks because I think he felt
Speaker 4: that I was just a dirty, impure human being. And
Speaker 4: I remember one of the things he said to me
Speaker 4: was like, I can't believe you didn't wait. Your mother waited,
Speaker 4: And that always stuck with me. That was sort of
Speaker 4: like the lore in our family, like your mother was
Speaker 4: a virgin, I was not. My father was not. Like
Speaker 4: he had a rolodex of all the women that he
Speaker 4: had had slept with, Like seriously, we saw it, like
Speaker 4: he showed us photos and everything.
Speaker 3: It was like, it was weird.
Speaker 1: How how does he justify?
Speaker 3: How does it just if I was saying that to you?
Speaker 3: And also also, these are my women before your mother.
Speaker 4: I don't know the cognitive dissonance of it all. So
Speaker 4: that was sort of the story, like your mother, like,
Speaker 4: I was such a bad boy, but your mom she
Speaker 4: was so pure and she was so sweet, and she
Speaker 4: waited until we were married. So when we're having this
Speaker 4: conversation on my podcast, she basically dropped and said that no,
Speaker 4: she wasn't a virgin when she got married and that, like,
Speaker 4: I mean, you could even hear it in the episode.
Speaker 3: I was like, wait, what you've been just going wrong
Speaker 3: with this life?
Speaker 4: Yeah, y'all been shaming me for having sex when you
Speaker 4: did the very same thing. The fuck. I was so mad,
Speaker 4: But also I just felt really ho that my mom
Speaker 4: would feel comfortable to share that with me, even though
Speaker 4: it took a long time and like I had a
Speaker 4: lot of trauma around that, I was really happy that
Speaker 4: she told me that story. And since then she was like,
Speaker 4: when am I gonna come on your podcast? I want
Speaker 4: to talk about sex more.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So she's actually been.
Speaker 4: On I think two more times or one more time.
Speaker 4: After that, we played like a twenty one questions where
Speaker 4: I asked like all these goofy questions like what was
Speaker 4: the funniest time that you had sex or whatever. So
Speaker 4: my mom is she's come around a lot. I think
Speaker 4: she really realizes that the work that I do isn't gratuitous.
Speaker 4: I think in the beginning she thought that I was
Speaker 4: just sharing about my sex life as a way to
Speaker 4: share about my.
Speaker 1: Sex life attention.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and so now she sees and I think, because
Speaker 4: like I have a podcast and I'm an author now
Speaker 4: and like I've been doing this for a long time,
Speaker 4: I'm speaking in colleges. I think the respectability of it all.
Speaker 4: She's like, oh, Okay, what you're doing is good. It's
Speaker 4: not just pornographic, which for her, I think that's what
Speaker 4: she thought. I'm so yeah, but yeah, my parents took
Speaker 4: a long time. My dad is still very much like
Speaker 4: when I google you, it's very disappointing.
Speaker 3: And I'm like, why are you googling me?
Speaker 4: But like the things that come up around me when
Speaker 4: you like it's it's good stuff, it's not. And even
Speaker 4: if it wasn't, who cares, right, So you're still right?
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So anyway, Yeah, as a mom, I think that's it's
Speaker 1: really beautiful to see that that she's been able to
Speaker 1: kind of give you that. I mean, it sounds like
Speaker 1: over time she'll be more and more open and that
Speaker 1: she really does want to have those conversations with you
Speaker 1: and then maybe she was. I mean, I don't know
Speaker 1: your daddy, and I don't want to judge them, but
Speaker 1: like sounds like maybe she was a little held captive.
Speaker 4: Yeah no, and that's that's a fair that's a fair
Speaker 4: thing to say.
Speaker 1: I'm just saying like she was held captive to this
Speaker 1: idea that she had to portray this image that he
Speaker 1: bestowed upon her, essentially that you were this good girl,
Speaker 1: and you were this, and you were that, and you
Speaker 1: were a virgin, and she was just like, okay.
Speaker 4: Right, that's what. Yeah, my mom was raised in like
Speaker 4: a Kojak church, so like they were Kojak Church of
Speaker 4: God in Christ, I think is what it's basic. It's like,
Speaker 4: And people are going to like bash me for this
Speaker 4: because I don't one hundred percent know. I just know
Speaker 4: that it's like something that's really popular amongst black folks
Speaker 4: in the black community. It's a very strict baptist Ish
Speaker 4: type of denomination. Like she wasn't allowed to dance, like
Speaker 4: why yeah, Like she wasn't allowed to wear dresses that
Speaker 4: were like above the knee. So she she was raised
Speaker 4: in a very very strict home. And I think that
Speaker 4: is why I kind of got those teachings, even though
Speaker 4: I don't feel like my mom at the time was
Speaker 4: when she was raising me, was really in the Kojik church.
Speaker 4: But I think, you know, that's what her mom taught
Speaker 4: her about sex and bodies. And that was actually something
Speaker 4: that came through in the podcast episode because I for
Speaker 4: a long time held so much resentment of my mom
Speaker 4: to be like why, like you knew this and you
Speaker 4: saw me struggling, Like why didn't you speak up and
Speaker 4: say I've been there, and like you're not alone and
Speaker 4: it's okay, and like don't be out here fucking reckless,
Speaker 4: like use condoms or whatever, Like you could have used
Speaker 4: that opportunity. And I realized that she just didn't know
Speaker 4: how because she didn't see anyone else model that for her.
Speaker 1: So and what a beautiful like that her daughter is
Speaker 1: kind of leading that way for her.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I feel like in a lot of ways, I've
Speaker 4: helped you sexually liberate my mom. Whether she would admit
Speaker 4: that or not, I think that I have.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, absolutely, because I think for a lot of us,
Speaker 2: it's important that we asked those questions. What was your
Speaker 2: relationship with sex in your childhood? What conversations did your
Speaker 2: mom have with you because nine times out of ten,
Speaker 2: there weren't many, and that we I think that's our
Speaker 2: whole thing too, is like sometimes we adopt ideas without
Speaker 2: really choosing them. We just are inheriting the and the
Speaker 2: ideas and then putting them on our kids and perpetuating
Speaker 2: that same cycle without questioning it. And I think, like
Speaker 2: that's the most important, you know, right now. It's like
Speaker 2: even for us, people you know, could scroll past our
Speaker 2: shit and be like all these these moms are talking
Speaker 2: about sex and smoking weed and make assumptions. But it's
Speaker 2: like I encourage everyone to dig deeper into our relationship,
Speaker 2: like your relationship with certain things and the why, you know,
Speaker 2: like there's a lot most of the time you didn't
Speaker 2: choose that, you know, And like it's really important as
Speaker 2: we raise girls in this time that that we're not
Speaker 2: doing the same thing our parents did do us because
Speaker 2: same like my mom found birth control in my bed
Speaker 2: and I was like, all hell broke loose and I
Speaker 2: got I did get pregnant in high school and the
Speaker 2: school called and said I wasn't there and it was
Speaker 2: fucking traumatic, and my dad didn't talk to me for
Speaker 2: like two and a half weeks.
Speaker 3: In the house, and.
Speaker 2: I was just like, I'm a horrible little slut, you know,
Speaker 2: And it's just like how much of that did I
Speaker 2: hold onto? And then like I feel like some people
Speaker 2: have shames, sexual shame or sexual trauma and they disassociate
Speaker 2: during sex and they like completely stay away from it,
Speaker 2: or they become hyper sexual or both, because I did both.
Speaker 2: I was hyper sexual and disassociating during sex and then
Speaker 2: like knowing something was wrong but not really and feeling like, oh,
Speaker 2: I'm liberated, you know, like I can do whatever I want,
Speaker 2: so I'm fucking But in reality, I was being coherced
Speaker 2: by like older men and just things that I really
Speaker 2: probably wouldn't have chosen had I been more clear about
Speaker 2: what it is I actually wanted and if I was
Speaker 2: actually having sex for my pleasure and taught that that
Speaker 2: was a priority and that was even important. So I
Speaker 2: just think it's like, kudos to you for healing that
Speaker 2: part of like the women and your family, and like, yeah.
Speaker 4: I think about my ancestors a lot with this work,
Speaker 4: Like I can't help but think about my grandmothers and
Speaker 4: their mothers and the things that they learned about their bodies.
Speaker 4: Also the ancestors that I had that did not have
Speaker 4: bodily autonomy and could not choose to have sex in
Speaker 4: a pleasurable way. You know, so a lot of this
Speaker 4: work for me is about honoring them and also bringing
Speaker 4: healing to the folks that came before me. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I know, like a part of your journey you
Speaker 2: discuss like just sexual abuse that you've experienced, and like
Speaker 2: I said, as women, I feel like most of all
Speaker 2: women have been violated. Yeah, to be a woman is right,
Speaker 2: this is my this is my number one quote. And
Speaker 2: I know you've used like your work to heal that.
Speaker 2: And what ways have you used sensuality to heal trauma?
Speaker 2: Because I think for some people, when something happens to
Speaker 2: them and that is taken away from them, they completely
Speaker 2: disassociate with sensuality with sexuality and they're like I'm good, yeah,
Speaker 2: instead of but you've used it as a tool, and like,
Speaker 2: in what ways has that helped you?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm glad that you asked that question. When I
Speaker 4: first got started with my journey of sexual healing, I
Speaker 4: was kind of having those same experiences that you were naming,
Speaker 4: like being like, Okay, I'm an adult, now I get
Speaker 4: to have all the sex that I want and I
Speaker 4: get to be free. But it wasn't connected to anything,
Speaker 4: Like I wasn't connected to my body. I wasn't even
Speaker 4: connected to actual pleasure or my real desires. I was
Speaker 4: almost like going through the motions of of what folks
Speaker 4: told me that my sex life should look like. And
Speaker 4: I think, honestly, that did a lot more damage because
Speaker 4: I was overwriting my body, Like my body was being like,
Speaker 4: slow down, we don't want to have sex, like it's
Speaker 4: triggering for us, and I'm like, but I'm a fucking adult,
Speaker 4: Like I'm with my husband, let's fucking do that. Like
Speaker 4: it's that's not healthy, you know. And so I actually
Speaker 4: kind of took a step back from sex and started
Speaker 4: to focus only on sensuality, which I know a lot
Speaker 4: of people tend to mix those things. They use those
Speaker 4: words interchangeably. But sensuality is very different from sexuality. It
Speaker 4: has its own meaning and its own experience, and sensuality
Speaker 4: for me means just being in your body and being
Speaker 4: of the body, and especially feeling into your body and
Speaker 4: the pleasure that it can experience both inside and outside
Speaker 4: of the bedroom. So sensuality for me was a lot
Speaker 4: more accessible because I'm like Okay, sex, I can put
Speaker 4: that on the back burner, But can I be in
Speaker 4: my own body? Like, what is it like for me
Speaker 4: to really inhabit my body? What is it like for
Speaker 4: me to listen to the messages of my body? And
Speaker 4: I think that's what sexual trauma steals from us. It
Speaker 4: steals from us our ability to connect to our body
Speaker 4: because we've been taught through that trauma that our bodies
Speaker 4: aren't safe to inhabit. I also think that sexual trauma
Speaker 4: takes away our ability to trust the voice of our body.
Speaker 4: So sensuality for me has been a really important piece
Speaker 4: in connecting back to my sexual self, because I mean,
Speaker 4: it all starts with the body. You know, Like we're
Speaker 4: not having sex with anything else, We're having sex with
Speaker 4: our bodies. And a lot of us are having sex
Speaker 4: thinking that we're totally present, but we're not, like we're
Speaker 4: all the way up here, or we're like in another room,
Speaker 4: or you know, we're doing something in our heads, math
Speaker 4: or thinking about you know, shopping lists or whatever. And yeah,
Speaker 4: I mean, I think that we need to be more
Speaker 4: aware of the things that take us out of our
Speaker 4: bodies and also pay attention when our bodies are like yeah,
Speaker 4: we're not here. Maybe that means we should slow down
Speaker 4: or stop or try something different. What does that look like?
Speaker 1: You know?
Speaker 2: And then even when you do get those signals and
Speaker 2: you know that then speaking on it, because that's a
Speaker 2: whole different thing, feeling empowered enough to be like, actually
Speaker 2: I don't want to do this.
Speaker 4: This is so layered, and like I just feel it
Speaker 4: on my spirit to say, like this is really really
Speaker 4: hard to do. Like it's very easy for me to
Speaker 4: talk about it, like, oh, yeah, just listen to your body.
Speaker 4: Your body says stop. But like if you don't have
Speaker 4: a connection to your body at all, and if you've
Speaker 4: been taught that your voice doesn't matter, that whether you
Speaker 4: say no or yes, it doesn't matter. It's going to
Speaker 4: happen to you anyway. If you have been raised into
Speaker 4: culture like I think a lot of us have, that
Speaker 4: makes sex appear to be so serious and also so
Speaker 4: superficial at the same time. Like there's a lot of
Speaker 4: confusing messages. So like I just want to pause and say, like,
Speaker 4: this takes fucking work, and it takes years to get
Speaker 4: to this space, but it really just starts by like
Speaker 4: creating practices that where you can listen to your body,
Speaker 4: maybe not in the sexual realm, Like that might be
Speaker 4: a little too much. Maybe that looks like creating practices
Speaker 4: where you are paying attention to your body during the day,
Speaker 4: you know, or you were carving out time where you
Speaker 4: are exploring what pleasure or feeling good in your body
Speaker 4: feels like outside of sex. I think a lot of
Speaker 4: us only designate pleasure in the bedroom, like we allow
Speaker 4: ourselves to feel like, oh, this is where I'm allowed
Speaker 4: to experience pleasure, ask for what I want or whatever.
Speaker 4: But we are allowed to explore and express our pleasure
Speaker 4: in a platonic way as well. So beginning that relationship
Speaker 4: I think is really important. Those are like really good
Speaker 4: first steps to getting to that point where you can,
Speaker 4: in the middle of sex be like, ah, yeah, I'm
Speaker 4: paying attention to my body. My heart's racing a little bit.
Speaker 4: I now understand, like what it feels like when I'm dissociating,
Speaker 4: I am not in my body. Let's pause and slow down,
Speaker 4: Like it's taken ten fucking years time.
Speaker 1: I was going to say that in itself is very
Speaker 1: very difficult for women, me included, to especially once you've
Speaker 1: agreed that okay, having sex, like we're gonna do this,
Speaker 1: We're doing it, I'm into it. To then stop the
Speaker 1: process and say, you know what, body's saying something else
Speaker 1: like that. There's as women, we have so much we
Speaker 1: resist saying no or stepping away because we feel like
Speaker 1: we've already agreed to something obligated, and it's like, oh, well,
Speaker 1: he's gonna think I'm crazy, or he's the thing, I'm
Speaker 1: overly emotional, or he's gonna think like there's something wrong
Speaker 1: with me, or there's something wrong with him. I don't
Speaker 1: want to make him feel bad, you know. I would
Speaker 1: say that I don't know like the all the steps,
Speaker 1: but I feel like that's like step ten because like
Speaker 1: I feel like that is really really difficult for women,
Speaker 1: meaning like I said me.
Speaker 4: Included, Yeah, I mean it is difficult. I want to
Speaker 4: affirm that it's really fucking hard. It's especially hard when
Speaker 4: you're in a relationship with someone who if you were
Speaker 4: to say no and be like, hey, I know that
Speaker 4: we were just like getting it on and I'm but
Speaker 4: let's not like and that person would be like the fuck.
Speaker 4: Like that makes it difficult too, you know. So I
Speaker 4: think it starts first and foremost by like picking a
Speaker 4: partner that under stands the nuances of your sexuality and
Speaker 4: like the ways that you're it's not even about like
Speaker 4: your sexuality, but can see like your humanity, Like it's
Speaker 4: okay for you to stop if you don't want to
Speaker 4: do something, it's okay for the consent to change. Like
Speaker 4: if you said yes and now it's a no, that's okay.
Speaker 4: And hopefully you'll pick partners that are just like I'll
Speaker 4: go with the flow. We can do something else, we
Speaker 4: can find different ways to be intimate. This will put
Speaker 4: a pin in this and get to it tomorrow or whatever.
Speaker 4: A lot of people, a lot of men, aren't capable
Speaker 4: of doing that, you know. So it's important to pick
Speaker 4: partners that are able to give you grace and space
Speaker 4: as you are on this sexual healing journey, so that
Speaker 4: when you have these moments where you need to pause,
Speaker 4: or when you're getting triggered or something like that, that
Speaker 4: they can be able to hold you in that not
Speaker 4: judge you or blame you for that, and also like
Speaker 4: take care of you.
Speaker 1: You know, I know that you've been married for fourteen
Speaker 1: years and it sounds like you picked a great, excellent partner.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't know how how I did that, and
Speaker 4: I was.
Speaker 1: Gonna say, like, did you know like ahead of time
Speaker 1: that he was going to.
Speaker 3: Be It was so crazy.
Speaker 4: We met on my Space and wow, yeah, yeah, it
Speaker 4: was supposed to be like a one night Stan. I
Speaker 4: was like, I'm out of this relationship. I'm just gonna
Speaker 4: have a fuck buddy, and that did not work. We
Speaker 4: like were saying we loved each other with the night
Speaker 4: days of meeting each other, and yeah, he's he's been wonderful,
Speaker 4: especially as I, like my parents went through really traumatic
Speaker 4: divorce and it really shaped the way that I thought
Speaker 4: about marriage and men in particular, and I kind of
Speaker 4: thought at the time that like, I'm never going to
Speaker 4: get married, like fuck, men, men are trash, yuck, and yeah,
Speaker 4: we just divine alignment.
Speaker 1: I met my person, So I mean I would imagine
Speaker 1: that like this journey and especially like you mentioned, like
Speaker 1: having a partner where you're exploring your sensuality and listening
Speaker 1: to your body and possibly stopping during sex. I mean,
Speaker 1: even like I said, have been you know, following you
Speaker 1: for a while and I know that you guys are married,
Speaker 1: but then chose to live separate from one another and
Speaker 1: like kind of figure out who you guys are as
Speaker 1: individuals outside of you know, coexisting in one space together.
Speaker 1: How did that conversation go because I feel like, you know,
Speaker 1: we were talking about we had this woman on her
Speaker 1: name's Aaron Claire Jones, and she's a human design expert,
Speaker 1: and she was discussing how certain designs like that were
Speaker 1: really meant to you know, live in separate like half
Speaker 1: separate rooms, half separate spaces, like it's really healthy for
Speaker 1: people to exist and have their own spaces. This is
Speaker 1: even more, you know, this is even deeper than that.
Speaker 1: This is actually like I love you, but I'm actually
Speaker 1: going to move out, and i still want to be
Speaker 1: married to you, but I'm actually going to go do
Speaker 1: my own thing for a while.
Speaker 4: That was very interesting.
Speaker 1: How did I think? That's a two part question. How
Speaker 1: did you arrive to that? And then how did that
Speaker 1: conversation go?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean that was really tricky and complex. I
Speaker 4: was actually visiting LA and I'm from this area originally.
Speaker 4: I was previously living in Portland, Oregon. Hated almost every
Speaker 4: second of it. I just did not resonate with the land,
Speaker 4: or the people or the culture there. And I was
Speaker 4: visiting LA for the first time since I moved to Portland,
Speaker 4: and I felt such a like like I just felt
Speaker 4: it in my heart, like oh my god, I'm supposed
Speaker 4: to be here like this is home, Like this is
Speaker 4: what home is supposed to feel like. And so during
Speaker 4: that trip, I was just like, fuck, what would it
Speaker 4: be like if I like moved to LA And it
Speaker 4: was so weird. I started looking at apartments, but I
Speaker 4: wasn't thinking about like, oh, Jonathan's gonna come with me
Speaker 4: and my dog. It was like it would be so
Speaker 4: cute if I got a studio and I'm like, whoa,
Speaker 4: where is this coming from? Then I visited California again
Speaker 4: and I felt that feeling even more so of just
Speaker 4: like you need to be here. You need to get
Speaker 4: the fuck out of Portland. It's not good for you.
Speaker 4: And my partner was not really interested in moving to LA.
Speaker 4: I wouldn't say that he was like in love with Portland,
Speaker 4: but he was definitely not wanting to move back to California.
Speaker 4: So I just sort of broached the subject of like
Speaker 4: what would it look like? First, I said, what would
Speaker 4: it look like if like I spent three months in LA?
Speaker 4: You know, like maybe I would visit you, but you know,
Speaker 4: I'm here all the time for work, it makes sense, like,
Speaker 4: you know, maybe we could save a little bit of
Speaker 4: money if I'm like spend like stretches of time there
Speaker 4: on airfare or whatever. And I was like, yeah, that's
Speaker 4: kind of a cool idea. Sure we could do that.
Speaker 4: And then I started getting like really really clear messages
Speaker 4: that like you are supposed to move here, and you
Speaker 4: were supposed to move here without your partner, like that's
Speaker 4: what you're supposed to do. And I remember having that
Speaker 4: conversation with Jonathan and he was like, so you're breaking
Speaker 4: up with me, and I'm like, I don't know what
Speaker 4: this means. I'm just like getting these messages and I
Speaker 4: feel like I am supposed to be apart from you.
Speaker 4: And I think the context behind this is that we
Speaker 4: got married when I was super young. I was twenty
Speaker 4: when we got married. I was nineteen when we met,
Speaker 4: and I never had the experience of living alone, like
Speaker 4: I lived with my mom and then my sister, and
Speaker 4: then I met Jonathan and I moved in with him,
Speaker 4: so I didn't and I didn't go to college or
Speaker 4: have the dorm experience, so I never had that experience
Speaker 4: of being by myself. And then also with us being
Speaker 4: together for so long I was with him twenty four
Speaker 4: to seven, there wasn't a lot of time for me
Speaker 4: to find my own rhythm. And I mean, our relationship
Speaker 4: is pretty pretty flexible, and I feel like we've created
Speaker 4: a lot of space for each of us to grow individually.
Speaker 4: But there was something that was really calling to me about,
Speaker 4: like what is it like for you to be by yourself?
Speaker 4: Like who are you outside of this relationship? Like who
Speaker 4: are you when you're not a wife, And who are
Speaker 4: you if you're just like by yourself?
Speaker 3: Oh my god.
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Speaker 4: You know, there's no model for this. Like anytime that
Speaker 4: I would google this on the internet, they'd be like, oh,
Speaker 4: so you're separating and the separation leads to divorce. I'm like, no, no, no,
Speaker 4: that's not it, because like I'm really happy in my
Speaker 4: relationship and there's nothing wrong and I really want to
Speaker 4: be with you. I just want to live apart from
Speaker 4: you for a stretch of time. So we sort of
Speaker 4: figured it out kind of on our own that we
Speaker 4: were going to do this thing, and it was going
Speaker 4: to confuse a lot of people. Like my mom was
Speaker 4: freaking out. She's like, oh, so you guys are getting
Speaker 4: a divorce and you're just not telling me. And I'm like, no,
Speaker 4: I promise you everything good. And yeah, he stayed in
Speaker 4: Oregon and I moved down to LA for a year.
Speaker 4: COVID happened two weeks after.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, damn. If there was ever a sign
Speaker 1: right wow, now.
Speaker 4: Sit Yeah, that was I mean, first of all, the
Speaker 4: fact that COVID happened two weeks after I got here,
Speaker 4: Like if I hadn't moved then I would have gotten
Speaker 4: stuck in Portland. Yes, so I was very grateful, Like seriously,
Speaker 4: my ancestors and my spare guides were with me, like
Speaker 4: get the fuck out. So yeah, So we lived apart
Speaker 4: for a year, about a year. He moved back a
Speaker 4: year ago. So now we're together again.
Speaker 1: Did you guys stay apart the entire time?
Speaker 4: We had to, at least for the first five months
Speaker 4: because of COVID, like everything was shut down. So originally
Speaker 4: we had said, we're going to see each other twice
Speaker 4: a month, so I'll fly up to Oregon and then
Speaker 4: you'll fly down to LA and we'll get a chance
Speaker 4: to see each other. But that didn't happen, of course,
Speaker 4: because of COVID, and then like later, as you know,
Speaker 4: COVID started to not surge. We saw each other I
Speaker 4: think like four times throughout that that year. But yeah,
Speaker 4: it was not at all what we planned, not at
Speaker 4: all what we planned, And I think that was for
Speaker 4: the best because it really allowed me to sit my
Speaker 4: ass down and like literally be alone. Because when I
Speaker 4: moved here, I was like, sweet, I'm gonna be around
Speaker 4: my friends, I'm gonna do work stuff, I'm gonna be partying.
Speaker 1: And He's like, Nope, no you're not. Yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: I would think, so, I would think. I mean, I
Speaker 1: know you got you had mentioned that you guys are
Speaker 1: open and you guys have your own individental you do
Speaker 1: that separately. And obviously with COVID happening and that, I
Speaker 1: mean dating and all those things was oh not really
Speaker 1: terrible and non existent we had and so there was
Speaker 1: really like you really couldn't even entertain that, like you
Speaker 1: really had to. Yeah, And because this was not necessarily
Speaker 1: his choice, what was that like for him? Like this
Speaker 1: he did? He? I mean, I'm assuming I think whenever
Speaker 1: you choose yourself, it's never a bad choice, right, Like
Speaker 1: that's right. But I think and I don't want to
Speaker 1: say that he didn't choose himself, but you kind of
Speaker 1: helped him do that, Yeah, made him have to kind
Speaker 1: of do that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I sort of forced him into choosing himself. I mean,
Speaker 4: he wasn't like adamantly against it. He was concerned. And
Speaker 4: I was also concerned because I didn't know what the
Speaker 4: fuck we were doing. I just was sort of being
Speaker 4: guided by intuition with it. But in the end, when
Speaker 4: we were really starting to like pack up things and
Speaker 4: like formulate the plan of where he was going to go,
Speaker 4: he was really excited. He was like, yeah, you know,
Speaker 4: I've been with you for thirteen fourteen years. I kind
Speaker 4: of forgot who I am outside of this relationship, and
Speaker 4: I think that this is going to be really good
Speaker 4: for me to focus on myself as well. And so
Speaker 4: and I love that about him. You know, he got
Speaker 4: into therapy and was like seeing his therapist once a
Speaker 4: week and he was healing his body and creating relationships
Speaker 4: with friends and really analyzing you know, his own party
Speaker 4: and being like white supremacist, patriarchal capitalist society. My partner
Speaker 4: is white, so like that that is a really I'm
Speaker 4: glad that we took that time because it really allowed
Speaker 4: us both to work on ourselves, and then when we
Speaker 4: came together, it was like a totally different relationship. You know,
Speaker 4: Like I felt, I felt like I was one hundred
Speaker 4: percent strong in who I was, what I wanted, what
Speaker 4: I needed, and I felt that he also came to
Speaker 4: me with that, and then we just decided, let's create
Speaker 4: something new from this from this place. So it was
Speaker 4: it was really wonderful. That was really great.
Speaker 1: I know that you've also talked about being an ace,
Speaker 1: and I'd never heard that term before. Oh really No,
Speaker 1: I'd never heard that term before. I've learned so much
Speaker 1: on this in this space, honestly, And you did this
Speaker 1: reel which I thought was really it shed a lot
Speaker 1: of perspective on it. And if you guys don't know
Speaker 1: what an ass I mean, AX, someone who's someone asexual.
Speaker 1: And you were like, what, like how people view someone
Speaker 1: who says they're asexual? And it's like you're like all
Speaker 1: frumpy and shit and you're not like sexy and you
Speaker 1: look let you know, and and then and then you
Speaker 1: came out you're like, you know, sensual and beautiful, and
Speaker 1: I think that I yes, I've never met anyone that
Speaker 1: identifies as would you be identifying as that?
Speaker 4: Or yeah, it's a sexual identity or a sexual orientation
Speaker 4: I guess. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Can you explain to our listeners a little bit more
Speaker 1: about what that means and how you came to this
Speaker 1: as well.
Speaker 4: Yeah, So to be ace is to be someone who
Speaker 4: is asexual, and so an asexual person is a person
Speaker 4: that is on a spectrum of sexuality. I think our
Speaker 4: culture has taught us that a person who is a
Speaker 4: sexual means that they do not have sex, they hate
Speaker 4: having sex. They're literally sex repulsed, and there are ACE
Speaker 4: folks who have that experience, but there are also ACE
Speaker 4: people like myself who have sex, like having sex, but
Speaker 4: don't approach sex from this space that I think culture
Speaker 4: and media has taught us that like, you get horny
Speaker 4: and you have sex immediately, Like for me, I don't
Speaker 4: really get horny. I mean, and I have a desire
Speaker 4: for sex, but it doesn't look like let's rip my
Speaker 4: clothes off and go like it's there's a nuance to
Speaker 4: my sexuality as opposed to being like let's fucking get
Speaker 4: it on, or like I don't want to have sex
Speaker 4: at all. So I think that's like the most important
Speaker 4: thing that I want to stress about. A sexuality is
Speaker 4: for so long people have seen it as it's an
Speaker 4: either black or white thing, and it's actually a spectrum,
Speaker 4: and a lot of people fall on that spectrum, a
Speaker 4: lot more people than I think people realize. I think
Speaker 4: there was at least when I was coming up into
Speaker 4: the sex education space, it was like only one percent
Speaker 4: of people are asexual, and I don't think that that's true.
Speaker 4: I think there's actually a lot more people, especially if
Speaker 4: you see it within that spectrum. And yeah, I identify
Speaker 4: as someone who is demi sexual. Y'all can look that up. Basically,
Speaker 4: a demi sexual is someone who can only have sex
Speaker 4: with people if they have an emotional connection with them.
Speaker 4: So casual sex is not for me. Learn that the
Speaker 4: hard way. I try to have a ho phase. It
Speaker 4: did not work, and my journey to that was a
Speaker 4: little difficult because I think, you know, we're talking a
Speaker 4: little bit earlier about sexual liberation is like freedom fuck
Speaker 4: all the time. I get to fuck and have all
Speaker 4: the sex that I want. And I definitely fell underneath
Speaker 4: that pressure of like, Okay, I'm grown. That means I
Speaker 4: can have all the sex that I want and I
Speaker 4: need to be having sex all the time. And so
Speaker 4: this idea that I could be asexual was like no, no, no,
Speaker 4: that's like that's that's not liberation. In my work, I
Speaker 4: have now seen that sexual liberation is not about how
Speaker 4: much sex you have, or who you have sex with,
Speaker 4: or how many times you have sex in a day,
Speaker 4: but it's really about you being at peace with who
Speaker 4: you are as a sexual being, no matter where you
Speaker 4: are that day. Like if that is like I don't
Speaker 4: want sex thinking about sex, my sexuality is a furthest
Speaker 4: thing from my mind, like that is sexual liberation because
Speaker 4: you were honoring who you are as a sexual being.
Speaker 4: I would much rather be someone who is able to say, like,
Speaker 4: I'm not interested in sex right now, then override my
Speaker 4: body and continue this this cycle of harming myself and
Speaker 4: violating my body, which is going to disassociate me from it.
Speaker 4: So there's a lot in there. I don't know if
Speaker 4: I answer your question, no.
Speaker 1: No, you did?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 1: I think that people there's so many misconceptions around women
Speaker 1: who are sex educators or are leading the way for
Speaker 1: women to kind of tap into their sensuality or sexuality,
Speaker 1: and they assume that you just must be out here
Speaker 1: fucking you know.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's one of the reasons why I wanted to
Speaker 4: come out as a sexual, to like really smash this
Speaker 4: perception because people are always thinking that I'm having orgies
Speaker 4: all the time, and I'm like.
Speaker 3: I wish.
Speaker 4: I mean, I've got shit to do, man, I don't
Speaker 4: have time for orgies and stuff like that.
Speaker 3: So, yeah, it was it.
Speaker 1: Important that your partner also identify as that or is it? No?
Speaker 4: I mean I think it can be difficult. I've certainly
Speaker 4: know that, and even when I came out as ACE.
Speaker 4: People were sort of telling their horror stories of like
Speaker 4: they came out to ACE or came out as ACE
Speaker 4: to their partner of three years and then they broke
Speaker 4: up with them. So there's a lot of asphobia out there.
Speaker 4: Like people just hear that word and they're like, oh,
Speaker 4: so you're never going to have sex with me again.
Speaker 4: Then well it's like, bro, I've been with you for
Speaker 4: three years. We've been having the same ship, Like it's
Speaker 4: literally the same. I'm just identifying as something. So yeah,
Speaker 4: there's a lot of misconceptions about what a sexuality is,
Speaker 4: and I think that's one of the reasons why. And also,
Speaker 4: you know, we put a lot of pressure on a
Speaker 4: relationship to have sex, Like the whole point of being
Speaker 4: in a romantic relationship is to have sex with someone, which,
Speaker 4: you know, if that's your thing, that's your thing. But
Speaker 4: there's so many different aspects to my relationship that isn't sexual.
Speaker 4: Like I'm with my partner not because of the sex
Speaker 4: that we have, but because he's a really good person
Speaker 4: and he's one of my best friends, and he is
Speaker 4: a caregiver. Also he allows me to caretake him, Like
Speaker 4: we have a dynamic that isn't solely based on the
Speaker 4: sex we have, And I feel very lucky that you
Speaker 4: know me coming out as ACE. My partner didn't run
Speaker 4: for the hills. He was more like, that makes a
Speaker 4: lot of sense because you know, based on how long
Speaker 4: we've been together and based on the way that you
Speaker 4: approach sex in our relationship, it would make sense that
Speaker 4: you're ACE because I think one of the easiest ways
Speaker 4: that I can explain it is that my sexuality isn't
Speaker 4: easily accessible, Like it's not. And I think that's one
Speaker 4: of the things that trips people up about who I
Speaker 4: am because and I've experienced this actually when I was
Speaker 4: dating in our open relationship, folks would know who I
Speaker 4: was because I have a presence online and so they're like, ooh,
Speaker 4: having sex educator, so we're going to have all the
Speaker 4: sex with all the sex toys, and they would get
Speaker 4: really disappointed.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I just had a visual of you
Speaker 1: like going up going to someone's house, yeah, like laying
Speaker 1: everything out and like wanting to impress you and you
Speaker 1: being like nope, nope, yeah, Like it literally a really
Speaker 1: great example.
Speaker 4: It took me three weeks, which may not be a
Speaker 4: lot for folks but it took me three weeks to
Speaker 4: have sex with my partner when we first started dating.
Speaker 4: And I started dating someone outside of my partner when
Speaker 4: we were in an open relationship, and she was like, yeah,
Speaker 4: so we've been dating for like two weeks, why haven't
Speaker 4: you like had sex with me? And I'm like, girl,
Speaker 4: I mean that's who I am, Like it takes me
Speaker 4: a little bit, so like, that's something that I feel
Speaker 4: is really frustrating about being a sex educator or just
Speaker 4: like being in the space where I'm talking about sex
Speaker 4: a lot, people automatically assume that your sexuality is going
Speaker 4: to be accessible to me, and all I have to
Speaker 4: do is like sweet talk. You buy you some dinner,
Speaker 4: tell you that you're beautiful, and your legs will open,
Speaker 4: and it's like, no, you got to work for it,
Speaker 4: and I will make you work for it, especially if
Speaker 4: I get that energy from you.
Speaker 1: Do you think that are you identifying as ACE or
Speaker 1: even people that are identify as as that are that
Speaker 1: are like farther on the spectrum of like being repulsed
Speaker 1: by sex, Is it rooted in sexual trauma?
Speaker 4: I think it can be, and I think it also
Speaker 4: doesn't have to be. I think one of the things
Speaker 4: that happens with ACE folks and asexuality in general, is
Speaker 4: our minds immediately go to what happened to you to
Speaker 4: make you like that, Like sex is natural. Everybody should
Speaker 4: have sex, So if you're not having it and you're
Speaker 4: not desiring it, that means that there's something wrong with you.
Speaker 4: I just illustrated what it means to be in a
Speaker 4: compulsory sexuality type of world, which is this belief that
Speaker 4: everybody should be sexual. Like from standard, everyone should be sexual,
Speaker 4: everyone should be horny having all kinds of sex, and
Speaker 4: if you're not, then there's something wrong with you. And
Speaker 4: with a sexuality, we are creating a different way of
Speaker 4: seeing our sex lives and our sexual selves as being
Speaker 4: like we're a lot more nuanced than that, Like it's
Speaker 4: not there are many different types to be sexual, just
Speaker 4: as there are many different types to be human. And
Speaker 4: so I don't like to touch It's not that I
Speaker 4: don't like to touch it, it's more like I don't
Speaker 4: want to accentuate that. Like, yes, a sexuality comes from
Speaker 4: people who have been sexually traumatized, because I'm sure people
Speaker 4: could listen to my story and be like, well, that's
Speaker 4: the reason why that you know she's Ace is because
Speaker 4: you know she had sexual violation or whatever, and that
Speaker 4: could be the case maybe or not. Either way, I'm Ace,
Speaker 4: and that's like, there's nothing wrong with that, you know.
Speaker 1: I think I'm Ace sometimes.
Speaker 4: Can I recommend a book?
Speaker 1: I think I'm sometimes Ace? Yeah?
Speaker 4: Can I recommend it?
Speaker 1: Burt? You? I am. There are times where I'm like,
Speaker 1: I don't, I'm going.
Speaker 4: I don't really get Yeah, I mean one of the A.
Speaker 1: And I'm not like always sexually accessible. I mean, I
Speaker 1: don't know if that's I don't know if that's a yeah,
Speaker 1: characteristic of Ace. I think that's just a characteristic of colectiveness.
Speaker 3: I think. So, I mean, I can be.
Speaker 1: Selective and then there's times where you know, I'm not,
Speaker 1: you know, like in Costa Rica, but that.
Speaker 3: Was a selection that was selective. They're like, we selected,
Speaker 3: we did.
Speaker 4: There's actually a great book that I'd love to recommend
Speaker 4: to folks. It's called Ace. It's by Angela Chin. Highly
Speaker 4: recommend it. Y'all should pick it up to. It's not
Speaker 4: just a book for people who are on the A spectrum.
Speaker 4: It's literally a really great book that interrogates are sex
Speaker 4: obsessed and also sex negative culture that we live in
Speaker 4: and the ways that these messages that are put upon
Speaker 4: us about like you need to be sexy and you
Speaker 4: need to be sexual, and this is the type of
Speaker 4: sex you need to have and blah blah blah, Like
Speaker 4: it really just goes deep into like that's not the
Speaker 4: reality for everyone, and like why are we putting this
Speaker 4: presumption onto people that they should be sexual when they
Speaker 4: don't have to be if they don't want to be,
Speaker 4: you know, So I recommend that book.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I think there's so many women I'm sure
Speaker 1: listening right now that are like, oh shit, this sounds
Speaker 1: like me, you know, and like and there there is
Speaker 1: so much shame attached to, you know, not wanting to
Speaker 1: have sex, like what's wrong with your libido? Like are
Speaker 1: you are?
Speaker 4: You?
Speaker 1: Are your diets fucked up? You're not eating enough, You're
Speaker 1: not doing this, You're not doing that, Like you're not
Speaker 1: masturbating enough, You're not you know, there's all these different
Speaker 1: things that society puts, especially on women. Of course, I
Speaker 1: think men to experience this as well too. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: And honestly it must be even it might almost be
Speaker 1: harder for men because men are like.
Speaker 2: Supposed to be like come get it, come take it,
Speaker 2: like like the aggressor in the bedroom, and and I
Speaker 2: mean I'm guilty of it. I dated someone who was
Speaker 2: not very sexual and I literally was like, what the
Speaker 2: fuck is wrong with you?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: I literally was like, why are you forty four and
Speaker 2: you're not trying to fuck me? Like it didn't add
Speaker 2: up in my mind. But even having this conversation, it's
Speaker 2: really making me like to be mindful of like your
Speaker 2: actual wants is definitely a process, you know what I mean,
Speaker 2: Like what are my actual wants versus am I doing?
Speaker 2: Am I is it performative? Like am I showing up
Speaker 2: and wanting to have sex because it gives me validation?
Speaker 2: You know, if you have sex with me, then I
Speaker 2: feel validated in a relationship that you're attracted to me
Speaker 2: and that a relationship is going well. But like even
Speaker 2: for me, like I know, I have a lot of
Speaker 2: confused thoughts of sex. We talk about this shit all
Speaker 2: the time, like am I having sex because I'm empowered?
Speaker 2: I'm having sex because I'm traumatized and filling a void?
Speaker 2: You know, it's a constant like I'm having to check
Speaker 2: in with myself. But the truth is is that I've
Speaker 2: been clouded with so many ideas and thoughts and beliefs
Speaker 2: that is going to take a very long time to
Speaker 2: get to the bottom of that. Like even the other day,
Speaker 2: I was having sex with like my fuck buddy, and
Speaker 2: I thought I was gonna leave after he had sex,
Speaker 2: and he didn't. He like laid in the bed and
Speaker 2: fell asleep, and I was like so confused. And then
Speaker 2: I was like, is something wrong with me? Like why
Speaker 2: am I such a cold bitch? I'm like he could
Speaker 2: lay there, but he was snoring. It was irritating me,
Speaker 2: and I was like, oh, but also I was having
Speaker 2: all I was high, but I was like having all
Speaker 2: these thoughts like am I having Like do.
Speaker 3: I need to have a like deeper connection to this man? No,
Speaker 3: he's nice. Sex is good.
Speaker 2: I was literally laying in the bed while he was snoring.
Speaker 2: I was pissed because I couldn't go to sleep. But
Speaker 2: then I was like literally digging deep into my feelings
Speaker 2: over me having sex, like.
Speaker 3: It was good, sex was good? Did I have to
Speaker 3: do that? Can I have just took in my ass
Speaker 3: to sleep?
Speaker 2: Could it?
Speaker 1: But he did it?
Speaker 2: Like I was really weighing back and forth, But this
Speaker 2: has been my experience in my sexuality for a long time,
Speaker 2: Like even in college being in my super whole hoole phase,
Speaker 2: just fucking I knew that something was wrong. I was like,
Speaker 2: there was a time I was like, bitch, why are
Speaker 2: you doing this? Like and I'm like, and I asked
Speaker 2: my aunt, like, do you think.
Speaker 3: I should get hypnotized? You think I'm like, I think
Speaker 3: that's what trauma I need to work through.
Speaker 2: But it's been a constant inner conversation about whether or
Speaker 2: not I'm having sex genuinely because I want to or
Speaker 2: you know what I mean. It's just such a clouded
Speaker 2: voice because obviously, like my body at some point enjoys
Speaker 2: it and you climax, I hope, But like, also, is
Speaker 2: it like a feel like an autopilot feeling of like
Speaker 2: oh this plus this equals good, you know what I mean?
Speaker 2: But like, is it something I actually need to have
Speaker 2: or do? I probably could probably pleasure myself and then
Speaker 2: be good.
Speaker 4: Yeah, coming to those realizations of like do I actually
Speaker 4: want to do this or is this something that I've
Speaker 4: been told I should do? And is this something that
Speaker 4: I actually like or is this something that I've been
Speaker 4: told I should like? Like that just like can blow
Speaker 4: your mind. This is making me think of a story
Speaker 4: of a client that I worked with recently. We worked
Speaker 4: with each other a few years ago, and then we
Speaker 4: worked with each other again this most recent time this year,
Speaker 4: and the first time we worked together, she came to
Speaker 4: me and was like, I'm in my mid twenties. I
Speaker 4: am not having sex. I don't desire sex, but I
Speaker 4: want to because when I was in college, I was
Speaker 4: fucking all the time, I was having one night stance,
Speaker 4: I was having a gay time. It was so much fun.
Speaker 4: So I want to get back to her. And so,
Speaker 4: you know, the work that we did together was just exploring,
Speaker 4: like what was going on for you during that time,
Speaker 4: and perhaps you're a little bit more confident in your body,
Speaker 4: and you know, you're younger, so you didn't maybe have
Speaker 4: as many responsibilities. So we were just exploring that. And
Speaker 4: then fast forward to like maybe five years later, we
Speaker 4: worked together again and she kind of came back with
Speaker 4: the same thing, like, I am not having sex. I
Speaker 4: don't know how I just sort of fell off from
Speaker 4: you know, the work that we did. I want to
Speaker 4: get that part of me back. And long story short,
Speaker 4: we realized that she was actually asexual, and this version
Speaker 4: of herself that she was trying to get back to
Speaker 4: was a farce. It was an illusion. She wasn't having
Speaker 4: sex with these people because she wanted to. She wasn't
Speaker 4: having sex with these people because her body had a
Speaker 4: desire to have sex with these people. She was having
Speaker 4: sex because that's what society told her to do, that's
Speaker 4: what her culture in college told her to do, and
Speaker 4: also because for her, it was about the pleasure or
Speaker 4: the physicality of sex. It was like, if you fuck me,
Speaker 4: you love me. If you fuck me, it means that
Speaker 4: I am worthy. If you fuck me, you're validating me
Speaker 4: and making me feel like I am seen and heard
Speaker 4: and safe and love. And it was quite an interesting
Speaker 4: experience to watch her get to that point because again,
Speaker 4: she was really wanting to get back to that person,
Speaker 4: that version of her, but it wasn't even a real version.
Speaker 4: And it took her actually sitting with herself and asking
Speaker 4: yourself these questions, Wait, do I want to have sex?
Speaker 4: Do I like having sex? Is this something that I want?
Speaker 4: And the answer to those questions were, like, it varied,
Speaker 4: It depended on the time, it depended on the person,
Speaker 4: Like there were so many different things. So I encourage
Speaker 4: everyone to do that deep work of figuring out like
Speaker 4: is this desire or is this a should that is
Speaker 4: being put upon me? And that's where that body literacy
Speaker 4: really can come in with sensuality, like your body will
Speaker 4: know or your body will tell you what it feels
Speaker 4: like to you, like sort of have that enthusiastic yes,
Speaker 4: you know.
Speaker 1: It almost sounds like she was much. It was she
Speaker 1: was way more able in her youth to disassociate from
Speaker 1: herself and that she had done the work actually, and
Speaker 1: she should be proud that now her body is like, bitch,
Speaker 1: we can't fake it no more.
Speaker 4: Sorry, That's what I told her. I was like, listen,
Speaker 4: your body is just like, okay, we're done.
Speaker 1: We can we can't do this. We've you did. You
Speaker 1: met with Evion and we did the work. I'm sorry, girl.
Speaker 3: We're not horny any it's not happening. We don't want
Speaker 3: we don't want that.
Speaker 1: We're good.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: And for her, you know, it's not like I don't
Speaker 4: want to have sex ever, but she has redefined what
Speaker 4: sex means for her, and she's redefined what sex means
Speaker 4: for her on the terms of like what does my
Speaker 4: body want? And typically for her, sex isn't about like penetration.
Speaker 4: It's like I want you to, you know, make out
Speaker 4: with me naked or something like that. Like that to
Speaker 4: me is enough stimulation and it feels really good for me,
Speaker 4: you know. And thankfully she's with the partner that is
Speaker 4: taking that ride with her and being like cool, let's
Speaker 4: explore different ways to have sex, you know. And again
Speaker 4: that's why it's it's so important that if you're on
Speaker 4: the sexual liberation journey, you're choosing partners that are able
Speaker 4: to go with you on that journey and not shamey
Speaker 4: for whatever you're going through.
Speaker 1: I'm sure you've probably watched this sex love Goop. Have
Speaker 1: you watched it?
Speaker 4: I haven't. I've heard of it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was really it was really interesting. There was
Speaker 1: this couple that came on and it was actually a
Speaker 1: black married couple and they're happy, they have this great life.
Speaker 1: But he is super like gungh, like he wants to
Speaker 1: fuck and she he said, like she's a prude and
Speaker 1: like she's not really like, yeah, she's a prude and
Speaker 1: for lack of a better word, and more less experienced
Speaker 1: than him. And through the work with through the work
Speaker 1: with one of these her name was actually, what's her name? Ship?
Speaker 1: What's her name? Do you remember?
Speaker 3: You said it? Like fun?
Speaker 1: I know, how the fuck don't I know her name yet?
Speaker 1: And Jaya Jaya giant. She They discovered that actually that well,
Speaker 1: their sex languages are different, Like he is one of
Speaker 1: those like he's stimulated by just like titties and ass
Speaker 1: like those are the things that like get him going,
Speaker 1: whereas for her, she's way more into like the anticipation
Speaker 1: of touch and like the build up and like. And
Speaker 1: what they found was that actually she's a lot more
Speaker 1: sexually advanced than him in her because she's really into
Speaker 1: the foreplay. She wants to experiment with different things before
Speaker 1: just having penetrative sex. And I think a lot of
Speaker 1: times that part of sex is overlooked. We're supposed to
Speaker 1: just like, oh, I'm what this means, we must have
Speaker 1: sex like insert here. Yeah, like a guy sees his
Speaker 1: dick is hard, Oh I must be horny, Oh my
Speaker 1: pussy's wet. Oh I guess I should have sex now.
Speaker 1: And there's no lead up. There's no anticipation I know
Speaker 1: for me, like that's something that is important to me,
Speaker 1: Like I'm I need a lead up. I can do both,
Speaker 1: but when I have the best sex of my life,
Speaker 1: it usually involves a lot of foreplay and like I
Speaker 1: need the lead up. I need like saying I need sensuality,
Speaker 1: and sometimes I don't even have to have the sex.
Speaker 1: I usually will, but but I just think that it's
Speaker 1: so true that finding the right partner and also like
Speaker 1: if you do have a partner that you love and
Speaker 1: everything else is good with that, that piece is missing
Speaker 1: exploring what that means, meeting with someone that can kind
Speaker 1: of help guide you. When I saw that, when I
Speaker 1: watched that show, I was like, how many relationships have
Speaker 1: ended because they didn't know that something like this existed
Speaker 1: right that they or they were embarrassed to ask, they
Speaker 1: were embarrassed to talk about it. And just knowing that,
Speaker 1: like thankfully for social media and I guess Netflix and
Speaker 1: Gwyneth Paltrow, I guess I don't know that, like these
Speaker 1: type of things can be resolved, and sometimes they can't,
Speaker 1: and that's okay too.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Yeah, I think that's one of the beauties of
Speaker 4: this era that we're in, you know, like we're seeing
Speaker 4: a lot more conversations about sex, and we're really normalizing
Speaker 4: the issues come up with sex. I think for a
Speaker 4: while it was like everyone's having the best sex except
Speaker 4: for me. I'm the one that has the problems, and
Speaker 4: it's like, no, all of us are sort of fumbling
Speaker 4: around and trying to find our way. And that's very normal,
Speaker 4: you know, It's okay for us to still not really
Speaker 4: know what we're doing. And in this case with this
Speaker 4: guy who is just like penetration ass tits, let's go.
Speaker 4: I mean, it makes a lot of sense because that's
Speaker 4: the culture we live in. We live in a very pornographic, male,
Speaker 4: gayzy world, and I think a lot of us have
Speaker 4: grown up thinking that the way to have liberated sex
Speaker 4: is to fuck like a man, you know, to fuck
Speaker 4: like a man, where it's like you see something visual,
Speaker 4: you get immediately wet or hard, and you just like
Speaker 4: go for That's not the case. That's one aspect and
Speaker 4: one way to be in your sexuality. But that's not
Speaker 4: that's not the case for everyone, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, I'm so glad that you came and
Speaker 2: like broke this down for us. I think this is
Speaker 2: going to resonate with a lot of women. It definitely
Speaker 2: resonates with me. I definitely have to like have deeper
Speaker 2: talks with myself, get more in tune with my body.
Speaker 2: I know, I always see you online doing your sensual dancing.
Speaker 2: I'd like to essential dance in the mirror too. But
Speaker 2: there is something deeply sexy and like intimate about gazing
Speaker 2: at yourself in an intimate space without anyone else being
Speaker 2: there to validate you, you know, just like Damn.
Speaker 3: Damn, I look good today. Damn, this feels sexy on
Speaker 3: my body.
Speaker 2: Damn this like just moving feels good, like just being
Speaker 2: in your body, like you said, Like, we just came
Speaker 2: back from Costa Rica and we did like a self devotion,
Speaker 2: like self worship, like this sensual circle with the girls,
Speaker 2: and it was so fun and beautiful and like you know,
Speaker 2: we just danced in a circle and like gave thanks
Speaker 2: to the elements and to our ancestors. And it's just
Speaker 2: like reminded me how much as women, like the divine
Speaker 2: feminine is sensual. It's a part of our identity, and
Speaker 2: like it's been such for so long, like under the
Speaker 2: gaze of men, under the standards of men, that we
Speaker 2: forget that, like it's our like our birthright and like
Speaker 2: a part of our experience to explore that even without
Speaker 2: being sexual or having intercourse in it.
Speaker 1: That's right, that's right.
Speaker 4: Yeah, can I plug something?
Speaker 3: Yeah, of course.
Speaker 4: So we're talking about sensuality here, and I should have
Speaker 4: brought you both copies of my book. But I have
Speaker 4: a book. It's called Sensual Self, and it is a
Speaker 4: guided journal that helps you with practices and exercises and
Speaker 4: prompts to basically do just that, like connect with your body,
Speaker 4: figure out the messages that your body is sending you,
Speaker 4: figuring out like what does pleasure feel like in my body?
Speaker 4: Really starting to create some boundaries and also some curiosity about, yeah,
Speaker 4: the things that your body needs in order to feel
Speaker 4: safe and have an enthusiastic yes experience. So I wrote
Speaker 4: this book because I hear stories like this so often, like, Okay,
Speaker 4: I know I need to connect to my body. I
Speaker 4: don't really know what the voice of desire in my
Speaker 4: body feels like because I've been overwriting it for so long,
Speaker 4: and you know, there's all these different cultural voices and
Speaker 4: messages that are telling me what I should want. But
Speaker 4: what do I want? Yeah, that's why I wrote my book,
Speaker 4: Sensual Self.
Speaker 1: I need that book.
Speaker 2: I need that book, and you know also it just
Speaker 2: like it dawned on me, like during this conversation when
Speaker 2: you're talking about you know, this voice telling you you
Speaker 2: needed to move, and like this is when you honoring that.
Speaker 2: I just think that just sitting with yourself and being
Speaker 2: with your body oftentimes will clear all of the Like
Speaker 2: your intuition will be much sharper because you've sat in
Speaker 2: your body and you're not trying to add other people
Speaker 2: and other shit into it. You're really just being mindful
Speaker 2: a of how you feel in your body, and that's
Speaker 2: like even outside of sex, you know. And then when
Speaker 2: you do get clear messages from spirit, you're like, oh,
Speaker 2: I can move on that because I'm conscious that this
Speaker 2: is what these are the voices that I need to
Speaker 2: listen to. And I think so often, like as women,
Speaker 2: that we let that part of us like fall at
Speaker 2: the wayside because we're constantly being told how we're supposed
Speaker 2: to be and what we're supposed to be, and then
Speaker 2: our voice, our inner voice, the voices of our ancestors,
Speaker 2: the ones we're supposed to listen to kind.
Speaker 3: Of like go mute.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So it's like being mindful, you know, like in your
Speaker 2: body really is the segue to just be mindful in
Speaker 2: your life in general.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's so much. It's so much deeper than
Speaker 1: just sex, like like you said, for sure.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, is there any I'm really glad you came
Speaker 2: finally after we stopped you for four years. Is there
Speaker 2: anything else any you want to tell our listeners where
Speaker 2: they can find you?
Speaker 4: Yeah? I have a podcast as well. It's called Central Self.
Speaker 4: It is also the title of my book, Central Self,
Speaker 4: which you can find anywhere that you get books. You
Speaker 4: can also find me on Instagram. That's where I'm like
Speaker 4: the most visible these days. And yeah, join my newsletter
Speaker 4: avan Whitney dot com slash newsletter trying to get people
Speaker 4: over there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel get off the igs.
Speaker 4: Yes, it's so hard, so.
Speaker 1: Hard over there.
Speaker 2: Before we started, actually I forgot. Evian pulled a car
Speaker 2: card and the card was the World Card. So I'm
Speaker 2: just going to read to you guys what that means
Speaker 2: a little bit. Let's see if it pertains to our conversation.
Speaker 3: It usually does, because we're witches.
Speaker 2: When the World Card appears in a Tara reading, you
Speaker 2: are glowing with a sense of wholeness, achievement, fulfillment, and
Speaker 2: completion a long term project, period of study, relationship, or
Speaker 2: career has come full circle and you are now reveling
Speaker 2: in the sense of closure and accomplishment. This card could
Speaker 2: represent graduation, a marriage, the birth of a child, or
Speaker 2: achieving a long held dream or aspiration. You have finally
Speaker 2: accomplished your goal or purpose. Everything has come together and
Speaker 2: you're in the right place, doing the right thing, achieving
Speaker 2: what you have envisioned.
Speaker 3: You feel whole and complete.
Speaker 4: Hmmmm, a beautiful card. I love the world. Very happy
Speaker 4: to pick that one today.
Speaker 2: It invites you to reflect on your journey, honor your achievements,
Speaker 2: and tune into your spiritual lessons. Celebrate your success and
Speaker 2: bask and the joy of having brought your goals to fruition.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 4: Well, thank you and giving me an impromptu reading.
Speaker 2: Oh you're welcome. I just went on bid taro dot com.
Speaker 2: It's not Yeah, I'm working on my tarot skills before
Speaker 2: we close out. I know you mentioned that you may
Speaker 2: have a whoy for us whose stories.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's kind of short. So I have a puppy,
Speaker 4: and I got a puppy two months ago and she
Speaker 4: has been a delight and a terror, and so much
Speaker 4: of my life has been taken up by her. And
Speaker 4: because of that. Me and my partner haven't been having
Speaker 4: sex because it's really difficult to have sex when you
Speaker 4: have a puppy. We're trying to create trainer, but you
Speaker 4: know that's.
Speaker 1: A long, long cross fortress. Oh my god, you know
Speaker 1: you have I mean, well, I have a baby, which
Speaker 1: is basically crate training is like basically like night training
Speaker 1: with babies, not night it is. And there's screaming in
Speaker 1: the room.
Speaker 3: I'm gonna your child to a puppies I can, We're
Speaker 3: going to come through.
Speaker 1: It's so awful.
Speaker 4: Like one time we were trying to have sex and
Speaker 4: the puppy sleeps with us in our bed, and you know,
Speaker 4: we're like being really quiet and then like all of
Speaker 4: a sudden, we start getting really into it, but we're
Speaker 4: still really quiet, and she just comes over to us
Speaker 4: and starts licking our faces and we're like, this is
Speaker 4: not And then I did a google and I was like,
Speaker 4: why did my dog come up to me for you know,
Speaker 4: after we were or while we were having sex. And
Speaker 4: apparently dogs can like smell your hormones and stuff, so
Speaker 4: she smelled that we were getting excited. I'm like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 4: this is not gonna work. So yeah, me and my partner.
Speaker 4: We've just been like, fuck, how are we gonna ever
Speaker 4: have sex again? Because she's I think she's no longer
Speaker 4: a puppy by the time, she's like a year and
Speaker 4: a half, so we've got a long way to go.
Speaker 4: And yeah, last night we're like, fuck it, we're having
Speaker 4: sex right now. We just like put her crate in
Speaker 4: the bedroom and then like gave her this like fish
Speaker 4: hide situation and she was like chewing and smacking on
Speaker 4: this bone while we were like getting it in. And
Speaker 4: it was great. I loved every second of it. We
Speaker 4: both like had an orgasm way too fast because it
Speaker 4: had been way too long, but it was so great.
Speaker 4: I was so stoned and it was amazing.
Speaker 3: This sounds like parenthood.
Speaker 1: It sounds like how I have I have had to
Speaker 1: have sex with my daughters in the house.
Speaker 4: Fuck, it's so hard. I have so much respect for
Speaker 4: parents because I will not have babies in my lifetime.
Speaker 4: I've decided that. And my God, my dog is giving
Speaker 4: me a lot of energy.
Speaker 1: Well, good thing. The only you know, the good thing
Speaker 1: about having a dog is that you can legally put
Speaker 1: them in a cage.
Speaker 3: You can put them in a cage. True with a
Speaker 3: fish hide.
Speaker 1: If I would I in a cage.
Speaker 3: In her room, I had don't come out. Shut up,
Speaker 3: mom has some ship to do.
Speaker 1: Wouldn't blow over so easily now, Oh my god, Well,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for coming on the show. This
Speaker 1: was such a tree. You guys know where to find us.
Speaker 1: Good Mom's Bad Choices on Instagram. Well, Good Mom's Underscore
Speaker 1: Bad Choices on Instagram. Make sure you check out our Patreon.
Speaker 1: We have tons of bonus content over there. We have
Speaker 1: some wore stories that we've updated recently that you definitely
Speaker 1: don't want to miss out on. Me and Mila had
Speaker 1: a shared group or story together. We say group. Well,
Speaker 1: it's me and you. We're the group plus one. Yeah, three,
Speaker 1: you know Destiny shild like after everyone left Good Moms
Speaker 1: by Wait, actually it's patreon dot com backslash Good Mom's
Speaker 1: Bad Choices. I'll link everything in our episode description. Make
Speaker 1: sure you check out our merge. We've dropped some really
Speaker 1: cute ship over the last few months, and it's real,
Speaker 1: real cute. Hopefully it's still there. I don't know by
Speaker 1: the time you listen to this, and I might all
Speaker 1: be gone. Anyway, I love you and have a good
Speaker 1: week hie