Speaker 1: Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I'm Heart Radio podcast.
Speaker 1: So this week's Thursday Therapy, we have Sarah Jane Hoe.
Speaker 1: She's a Harvard Business School grad, Netflix star and manners
Speaker 1: expert who founded institutes in China to teach manners and etiquette.
Speaker 1: Her new book, Mind Your Manners is out now. So
Speaker 1: the book provides readers the tools that can help us
Speaker 1: all to thrive socially, professionally, and romantically at home and abroad,
Speaker 1: both in person and online. So let's see how we
Speaker 1: can improve our manners friendship, social work, dating relationships, family, food,
Speaker 1: and travel. Let's get around.
Speaker 2: Hi, Hi Jana, how are you? I am well, Thank
Speaker 2: you so much for inter It's such an honor.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, you're so sweet. I mean, it's an
Speaker 1: honor to chat with you. Congrats because by the time
Speaker 1: this episode airs, your book will be out, so I'm
Speaker 1: so excited to get my hands on it too, because
Speaker 1: manners is a big, big thing in our household. But
Speaker 1: I love the fact that your book breaks it down
Speaker 1: into the different parts too, because I've never really thought
Speaker 1: about it in the dating and relationship world or the
Speaker 1: friendship and social life world too. So I'm curious to
Speaker 1: kind of break down the differences of where the manners
Speaker 1: come in with that, Like I think in my mind
Speaker 1: I know what it might be, but I'm just curious.
Speaker 1: Like for you, well, first and foremost, did you grow
Speaker 1: up in a house where you're like manners were the
Speaker 1: number one thing at like the dinner table and so on.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that is a great question. I grew up in
Speaker 2: Hong Kong. Well, actually, by the age of fourteen, I
Speaker 2: had lived in Papua New Guinea, the UK, Hong Kong
Speaker 2: where my parents are originally from, and exit to New
Speaker 2: Hampshire where I went to boarding school. I went to
Speaker 2: Phillips Sister Academy, and my mom is, I don't know
Speaker 2: if you've heard of the term tiger mother. Does that
Speaker 2: book battle him of the Tiger Mom?
Speaker 1: Okay, yep.
Speaker 2: And that's how a lot of Chinese parents are in
Speaker 2: Hong Kong. Mother's a particularly tiger. My mother was very demanding.
Speaker 2: She was a very high achieving woman. And she she
Speaker 2: was very demanding of me too. So even let's say
Speaker 2: if I were at a we were having lunch with family,
Speaker 2: friends or with family, if somebody's gloss was, you know,
Speaker 2: was half empty, she would be kicking me under the
Speaker 2: dinner table, motioning me to top up, you know, so
Speaker 2: and so's tea cop or wine gloss. So I definitely
Speaker 2: grew up and I do think that. I do think that,
Speaker 2: and part of you know, my etiquete school that I
Speaker 2: have in China, the reason why we chose not to
Speaker 2: teach children but to teach mothers is because I think
Speaker 2: it really begins with mothers and in the home. And
Speaker 2: I think the most beautiful gift of a parent can
Speaker 2: give their child as good manners.
Speaker 1: So that's my one question with that is because we
Speaker 1: are big manners table. You know, my daughter, especially she
Speaker 1: has she's a little bit more of a difficult time
Speaker 1: sitting at the table, and she's always moving or moving
Speaker 1: her chair and I'm like, Jolie, you know, please sit down,
Speaker 1: and then you know she's she'd rest her hand like that,
Speaker 1: like all right, you know, don't don't put hair on
Speaker 1: the table, keep her keep her legs down. And I
Speaker 1: feel like I'm riding her. But and I don't want
Speaker 1: to be that parents like Jolie puts your legs down,
Speaker 1: Julie's put your hand down, or like Jase put your
Speaker 1: hand down and it's like, but I'm also like, I
Speaker 1: was raised on like manners and etiquette too at the table,
Speaker 1: and I think it's important because I don't just want
Speaker 1: a bunch of wild animals at the table, so I
Speaker 1: wanted to be enjoyable for everyone there. So do you
Speaker 1: think that's because you were raised in that more tiger
Speaker 1: mom era, like where do you think it's a bad
Speaker 1: thing to ride the kid that much?
Speaker 2: Then? Uh? You know, I think that as like in
Speaker 2: the old times, parents are much more strict, right and
Speaker 2: now especially with you know your you and I are
Speaker 2: the same generation, and as millennials, we we are much
Speaker 2: more I think we're much more softer and aware of
Speaker 2: some of the mental health issues for our for our children.
Speaker 2: But I do think that discipline is still very important,
Speaker 2: and I don't regret my mother being, you know, disciplining
Speaker 2: me and being strict with me, because when when you
Speaker 2: go out into the world, and you know, I think
Speaker 2: it's it also depends how old your child is. I mean,
Speaker 2: if she's very young, then she probably has some issues
Speaker 2: focusing right at such a young age. But I do
Speaker 2: think that discipline and routine and you know, just good
Speaker 2: parenting is.
Speaker 1: Very important, right no, I mean I totally agree with
Speaker 1: you there, and it's something that you know, I'm going
Speaker 1: to continue to do. My fiance is very helpful with
Speaker 1: me too as well, like we make sure that you
Speaker 1: know it's it's not it's something that they you know,
Speaker 1: not eating with their mouths, you know open, and you
Speaker 1: know it's it's all of that. But I'm curious on
Speaker 1: the flip side of things when you go into like
Speaker 1: what are some manners in the dating and relationship and
Speaker 1: friendship so area too that you talk about in your book. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So the book is spread across five different chapters, so
Speaker 2: there's love and relationships, dating relationships, family, Korea, food and
Speaker 2: travel and and so you know, I'd say we can
Speaker 2: start off with social I guess, but you know one
Speaker 2: thing is that uh well, I always say, like one
Speaker 2: thing that every could everybody could do better around the
Speaker 2: world is greetings and introductions. And that's also when somebody
Speaker 2: introduces two people, that is when it's very revealing if
Speaker 2: they how they do it, you can you can tell
Speaker 2: number one, I guess how they were raised, like in
Speaker 2: their level of EQ and number two, uh, like how
Speaker 2: good of a host they are a lot of people
Speaker 2: would just say, oh, this is Sarah Jane. This is Jana.
Speaker 2: She's also a Sagittarist. You're December second, right, she well,
Speaker 2: she's December fifth. You two are both Sagittarist friends of mine.
Speaker 2: You know, Johnas from Michigan and Sarah James from Hong Kong,
Speaker 2: and you know, you're both sort of newly married slash engaged,
Speaker 2: and John is just about to have a baby or
Speaker 2: just had a baby, and Sarah Jans you know, planning
Speaker 2: on having kids. So being when you're doing introductions to
Speaker 2: be able to give enough information about each person who's
Speaker 2: met each other for the first time so that they
Speaker 2: can easily continue a conversation and you can actually even
Speaker 2: bow out that to me, is shows a very high
Speaker 2: level of hosting or hostessing.
Speaker 1: I like that. I feel like I feel like I
Speaker 1: do that because I always want everyone to be friends. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I want everyone to like get along or to
Speaker 1: be able to talk or just like have something in common.
Speaker 1: So I feel like I try to do that. Okay,
Speaker 1: But on the dating side, what's the best manner that
Speaker 1: you think is something that people should take away from
Speaker 1: the book as well?
Speaker 2: Oh, I think that well for dating, and actually this
Speaker 2: can even apply to social too. The most attractive thing
Speaker 2: about a post is how is conflict resolution? Because everybody, right,
Speaker 2: when things are going well, everybody, it's easy, it's easy
Speaker 2: to be on good behavior. But when something doesn't go
Speaker 2: your way, how you deal with that that really shows
Speaker 2: who you are as a person. And on the flip side.
Speaker 2: So in my Netflix show Mind You Man is one
Speaker 2: of my students, Rochelle. She told me during the dumpling
Speaker 2: making session that when she was younger and just started
Speaker 2: dating her aunties, so her mother's sisters told her, when
Speaker 2: you first start dating a guy early on, disagree with
Speaker 2: something or break a date, and that's almost.
Speaker 1: Like a missed a test for what though, a test.
Speaker 2: To see how he's going to respond. And you know what,
Speaker 2: if he gets angry, if he gets aggressive, if he's
Speaker 2: not okay with things not going his way, then those
Speaker 2: are like red flags of I mean, even like abusive behavior.
Speaker 1: Later down the line, ladies, listen up, that's a good
Speaker 1: little I mean, I don't I low the game playing
Speaker 1: in relationships. Having said that, that's a good one if
Speaker 1: you're gonna do it.
Speaker 2: And it's a test, right, especially if you're looking for
Speaker 2: to be serious with somebody and you want to know
Speaker 2: what they're going to be. Like everybody always puts on
Speaker 2: their best behavior in the beginning. It's like the longer
Speaker 2: you're in it, right, then everything else comes out. So
Speaker 2: this is app You should absolutely be testing somebody early.
Speaker 1: On, and you don't see that as games.
Speaker 2: No, no, this is not manipulative, but because it should
Speaker 2: be something because something always happens. Let's say you're meant
Speaker 2: to have a date, but then you had to work
Speaker 2: later the office, right, or something came up your boss
Speaker 2: you needed to turn something in for like a deadline
Speaker 2: was like pushed early, was brought forward right, Or you
Speaker 2: just are not feeling well and you just don't don't
Speaker 2: feel like going to the movies because you came down
Speaker 2: with a cold. Right, So be who you are, but like,
Speaker 2: don't be afraid to don't be afraid to express this.
Speaker 2: And you know, I've one of my younger days, I've
Speaker 2: been in relationships with controlling people, and I think so
Speaker 2: have you, And how much could we have saved ourselves
Speaker 2: if we had known these things sooner? So to me,
Speaker 2: the sexiest man is somebody who is able to resolve
Speaker 2: conflict in a calm and mature way, and I feel
Speaker 2: that I have that in my husband. Where you know,
Speaker 2: difficult conversations, how do you approach difficult conversations right? Are
Speaker 2: you calm or do you get like you know? Do
Speaker 2: you get dramatic and emotional and aggressive like you can?
Speaker 2: I often say etiquette. People think etiquette is one big no,
Speaker 2: it's one big limiting thing, like you can't do this,
Speaker 2: You can't say that. People will come to me and say, oh,
Speaker 2: Sarah Jane, but I have really bad etiquette because I'm
Speaker 2: too honest, Like this person does not under that stand
Speaker 2: the spirit of etiquette. Etiquette is enabling, It is empowering.
Speaker 2: It will let you do what you want to do.
Speaker 2: It will let you speak to the person you want
Speaker 2: to speak to. It will let you set a boundary
Speaker 2: that you want to set. It's all just about how
Speaker 2: you do it.
Speaker 1: Honesty is obviously the number one key and the best
Speaker 1: thing to be, but it's how you also deliver that
Speaker 1: is I think the etiquette and right and the manners
Speaker 1: in it right exactly. Yeah, did you break up with
Speaker 1: a boyfriend over text message? Did I see that on
Speaker 1: your show?
Speaker 2: It was on my show, It was on my New
Speaker 2: York Times style profile.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, there you go. You know. So I'm curious
Speaker 1: about that because if we flip the script, right, and
Speaker 1: that's me and my my fiancee like to say a lot,
Speaker 1: like all right, if we flip the script, how would
Speaker 1: it feel on the other side? So if that flip
Speaker 1: the script, like have you been broken up with on
Speaker 1: a text message? And would you have appreciated that?
Speaker 2: Well, nobody would appreciate its being broken up with overtext.
Speaker 2: I probably, I mean, I'd probably have been was it.
Speaker 1: A week moment? In manners with his Sarah? Like we
Speaker 1: all make is it? We all make mistakes.
Speaker 2: Here's the thing New York Times for my style profile,
Speaker 2: they shadowed me over like two three days, and of
Speaker 2: course they take the one thing that I.
Speaker 1: Say, well, obviously, welcome to being a select you know.
Speaker 2: And I was like when I opened when I saw
Speaker 2: that article, because they don't tell you, they don't give
Speaker 2: you advanced notices, you know. And I saw that article
Speaker 2: and I cringe, and I send it to my cousin Adrian,
Speaker 2: who's like my bestie, and she was like OMG. And
Speaker 2: then and I was like, oh, do I post this
Speaker 2: or not? Because it's my neual time stole profile really
Speaker 2: like the photo, but this headline. And ten minutes later,
Speaker 2: when she finished reading the uticle, my cousin she was like,
Speaker 2: you know what, this is actually the best headline and
Speaker 2: I was like, you know what it is because it's
Speaker 2: showing that etiquette is contextual and by the and and
Speaker 2: so and and like it's also unexpected and I'm never
Speaker 2: trying to pretend to be holier than thou or or
Speaker 2: like you know, like I'm not Missgoddy two shoes. I'm
Speaker 2: I like to say, I'm mismatterers with a touch of Machiavelli.
Speaker 2: And and by the way, so that was on again,
Speaker 2: off again boyfriend. He was really good controlling. It was
Speaker 2: data here and I was just like here, I am, like,
Speaker 2: you know, teaching my students to be there best selves.
Speaker 2: And then on the other hand, I have this controlling
Speaker 2: and insecure boyfriend who's calling all the time, made me
Speaker 2: cry like before I show up on set. And by
Speaker 2: the way, his ex wife had divorced him by email
Speaker 2: and cecied his mother.
Speaker 1: Oh so this is a track record then for his
Speaker 1: life too.
Speaker 2: I think it's okay to ghost, it's okay to break
Speaker 2: up with a text when somebody's in denial and not
Speaker 2: and not like and not accepting your decision. Right, he's
Speaker 2: and he had trouble with like me saying boundaries.
Speaker 1: Listen, girl, I've done it too, So this is not
Speaker 1: me coming on to you like this is. I think
Speaker 1: it's just one of those things where you know, if
Speaker 1: that's your if if it's safer to text, you know,
Speaker 1: if you if you feel safer to have that conversationation
Speaker 1: over text, then that's the way to do it. You know.
Speaker 1: I think there's adequacy in maybe not ghosting someone that
Speaker 1: to me, I don't I've never liked even in the
Speaker 1: dating world. I'm like, just say you're not in to me, like,
Speaker 1: I'm actually fine with that. I've at least given that
Speaker 1: respect to other people over text. I have a hard
Speaker 1: time doing it on the phone because it's said uncomfortable why.
Speaker 1: I don't want to upset them, but I also want
Speaker 1: to speak my truth. So you know, I think there's
Speaker 1: for me, at least in the dating world. I think
Speaker 1: ghosting is very poor Etiquett and I don't think it's
Speaker 1: really fair. I think you just be like, hey, I'm sorry.
Speaker 1: I'm just either either lie or say I'm not into
Speaker 1: you one of the two like just be like I'm
Speaker 1: just not ready and you want to go be with
Speaker 1: someone other girl tomorrow night. Fine, but just like be
Speaker 1: honest like with or or just like let me know
Speaker 1: or just don't like disappear as what I would. But
Speaker 1: then again that shows like the guy's character. So any
Speaker 1: time a girlfriend in the dating world is like, oh,
Speaker 1: this guy didn't text me back, I'm like, well, then
Speaker 1: you know what he was not worth, Like, he's not
Speaker 1: your person. Move on next, you know, don't waste your
Speaker 1: time totally.
Speaker 2: And for me, I'll even just you know, delete that
Speaker 2: person because I'm very much about moving on and not
Speaker 2: looking in the past. I like to look forward. I
Speaker 2: think that's a very Sagittarian trait.
Speaker 1: What you're Sagittarius too, Yeah, I'm.
Speaker 2: December five, you're December.
Speaker 1: Two, I'm yeah.
Speaker 2: And and so to me, it's like, you know what,
Speaker 2: some people will like you, some people won't. Some people
Speaker 2: can't date you because maybe they already have an existing
Speaker 2: relationship or some issue going on their life. And but
Speaker 2: so what like, move on next?
Speaker 1: So what did post malone asked ask you for?
Speaker 2: Are you talking about the Instagram posts that I have
Speaker 2: of me and him holding chopsticks up to the camera
Speaker 2: from from October.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so he reached out to you when he was
Speaker 1: on tour, right.
Speaker 2: No, so okay, No, so my friend, I'm my friend
Speaker 2: was part of his tour. My childhood friend. Yeah, my
Speaker 2: childhood friend. Uh. And so I just joined them. I
Speaker 2: was in Singapore for F one which he was headlining,
Speaker 2: and then I joined them in Hong Kong for a
Speaker 2: part of his Asia tour. And we were at a
Speaker 2: and we were at a Chinese restaurant in Hong Kong,
Speaker 2: and when everybody sat down, there were two pairs of
Speaker 2: chopsticks on the table. So for each Post that's in
Speaker 2: a chopstick and out of chopstick, and pretty much like
Speaker 2: everybody e stuff. For me was kind of confused. But
Speaker 2: what I love about post is that Posty as we
Speaker 2: call him, is that he is so secure. He is
Speaker 2: so respectful of different cultures. This was like amazing to me,
Speaker 2: Like I it was really unexpected, but so amazing to
Speaker 2: learn that about him. He really wanted to understand like
Speaker 2: the proper way in each culture of how to you
Speaker 2: know of a custom or how to use a you
Speaker 2: know of the food. So I explained and icclated to
Speaker 2: every of the table. I said, there's an inner chopstick,
Speaker 2: well this is the outer chopstick, and they're both situated
Speaker 2: on the right hand side of your plate. But the
Speaker 2: outside chopstick is the one that is used to bring
Speaker 2: food from the lazy susan or from the common dishes
Speaker 2: to your plate. It never touches your mouth, so it's clean.
Speaker 2: And then the chopstick on the inside is the one
Speaker 2: that brings food to your mouth. So that's like you're
Speaker 2: personal that you know, with your salive on it. Ah, right,
Speaker 2: isn't that fun? And she was the of a whole table.
Speaker 2: He was the only person who asked. You know, most
Speaker 2: people would not, as they kind of be like, oh,
Speaker 2: a little confused, a little embarrassed, but just see what
Speaker 2: other people do. And he said, oh, what are these chopsticks?
Speaker 2: And I explained, and he is such a gentleman. Post
Speaker 2: Malone is such a gentleman.
Speaker 1: So there was no man or no manner problems with
Speaker 1: post Malone.
Speaker 2: I like that none. He told me some incredible one
Speaker 2: that he taught you, just the way he treated people
Speaker 2: and how he used humor to uh to diffuse like
Speaker 2: any awkward situations, like he was always so relaxed and
Speaker 2: you went to bring in humor. He's very funny and
Speaker 2: he's incredibly nice, and he notices everybody in the room.
Speaker 1: Oh that's that's that's beautiful. I love that instead of
Speaker 1: because because I'm sure a lot of people are noticing him.
Speaker 1: He's not one that's easy to hide. So it's that's that.
Speaker 1: I love that. I love to hear that. That's great.
Speaker 1: All right, favorite chapter in your book? Why and what
Speaker 1: do you want the biggest takeaway to be for your book?
Speaker 2: Oh? Favorite chapter in my book. Well, you know, writing
Speaker 2: this book was really cathartic for me because I obviously
Speaker 2: I bring a lot of anecdotes, case studies, a lot
Speaker 2: of a lot of mini pro tips, but also a
Speaker 2: lot of my failings, a lot of my personal stories.
Speaker 2: I make myself very vulnerable in my book. And it's
Speaker 2: a very meaty book. Like I wanted a book that
Speaker 2: was that would scratch the service and be really practical
Speaker 2: and help people see things in a different way. So
Speaker 2: every single chapter, even writing the family chapter, I mean,
Speaker 2: you know, nothing cuts us to the core like a
Speaker 2: family conflict, right, and our family they really know how
Speaker 2: to push our buttons because probably because they installed them.
Speaker 2: And then writing the love chapter was it made me
Speaker 2: like review all my relationships and it's a sad you know,
Speaker 2: there have been a few relationships.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, we love to love.
Speaker 2: And so that that was probably like one of the
Speaker 2: most meaningful chapters to me, of which would because I
Speaker 2: feel that I don't regret any any single relationship I've had,
Speaker 2: even the bad ones, sure, because it taught me the
Speaker 2: kind of person that I don't want to be and
Speaker 2: the kind of person I don't want to be with.
Speaker 2: And then the beautiful relationships, you know, the ones that
Speaker 2: taught me how to love and how to be loved,
Speaker 2: I'm also grateful for because it's also just helped me
Speaker 2: be a better partner to my husband and realize that
Speaker 2: like it's something that you really have to work on constantly. No, yes, yeah,
Speaker 2: so I would probably say, like the love and relationships
Speaker 2: chapter is one of my favorites.
Speaker 1: And then what is the biggest takeaway that you want
Speaker 1: for your readers?
Speaker 2: My biggest takeaway for my readers would be that you know,
Speaker 2: people people think, so like the way I approach this
Speaker 2: book and the way I've really approached my life because
Speaker 2: I've lived in so many different cultures, is that I
Speaker 2: see myself as a microcultural anthropology. Just I went to Georgetown.
Speaker 2: I was an English major, but my favorite class was anthropology,
Speaker 2: which is a study of human behavior. And I feel that,
Speaker 2: you know, you don't even have to go to a
Speaker 2: different country to see a different microculture. You could, like
Speaker 2: even in our one day. In our lives, we move
Speaker 2: across many like even the office, different departments, or different
Speaker 2: sets of friends. These are all different microcultures. And every
Speaker 2: time I go I meet somebody new, I'm with a
Speaker 2: new group of people or in a new country. The
Speaker 2: first thing I'm doing is I see myself as what
Speaker 2: we call in the field, and I'm observing and I'm thinking,
Speaker 2: what are the codes of conduct here? How are people behaving,
Speaker 2: how are they speaking, what is their accent, what slang
Speaker 2: are they using? Are they more aggressive or are they
Speaker 2: more like Type A or are they Type B? You know,
Speaker 2: And then I'm sort of unconsciously adjusting myself to make
Speaker 2: them feel comfortable around me, because that is what etiquette
Speaker 2: really is. It's about putting other people around you at ease.
Speaker 2: And once they feel comfortable around you, then you feel
Speaker 2: comfortable around them, and I feel that that is what
Speaker 2: makes us human, which is belonging human connection, and it's
Speaker 2: something that we need now more than ever, especially coming
Speaker 2: out of the pandemic right where all of our social
Speaker 2: skills are a little bit rusty. I mean, we all
Speaker 2: went through a mental health crisis globally from lockups, from
Speaker 2: being locked down, yeah, fan lockdowns. Yeah, and especially for children,
Speaker 2: you know, for students who missed out on all that
Speaker 2: socializing in college and school.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, Sarah, thank you so much for coming on
Speaker 1: mind Down. I appreciate it, and everyone go get mind
Speaker 1: your manners. It's out now. Thank you so much, friends,
Speaker 1: appreciate you.