Speaker 1: We're looking at something that could profoundly change people's lives.
Speaker 1: It has profoundly changed my life, my wife's life, my
Speaker 1: dad's wife, all of my friends Aronny that have done
Speaker 1: it well, I have seen it well.
Speaker 2: Eyes Lava for Good and Stand Together in Music Present
Speaker 2: The War on Drugs Podcast, Season two. This season, we're
Speaker 2: diving deeper into the real stories behind the War on Drugs,
Speaker 2: It's impact, it's failures, and the people offering a better
Speaker 2: path forwards today on the show. Founder guitarists and background
Speaker 2: vocalist for The Amazing Brothers Osborne, co author of Billboard
Speaker 2: Hot Country Hits, Stay a Little Longer, It Ate My Fault,
Speaker 2: Shoot Me.
Speaker 3: Straight, and All Night.
Speaker 2: Winner of six awards from the Academy of Country Music,
Speaker 2: five awards from the Country Music Association and twelve nominations,
Speaker 2: and one award from the Grammy Awards for Best Country
Speaker 2: Duo Group Performance in twenty twenty two, and a passionate
Speaker 2: advocate for psychedelic assisted mental health therapy. Mister John Osborne,
Speaker 2: all right, well, I'm welcome back Season two The War
Speaker 2: on Drugs Podcast.
Speaker 3: Greg Glove really excited about our interview.
Speaker 4: Man. We do went down to Nashville, which has been
Speaker 4: called the white Atlanta, and I can't.
Speaker 5: Say that it's not I see that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it is a very music focus. They've got their
Speaker 4: own little party seede. I enjoyed myself. It's good. I've
Speaker 4: never seen that many white cowboy boots in my life
Speaker 4: and I enjoyed it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I love country music.
Speaker 2: And to meet John Osborne, like you're from Yeah, he's
Speaker 2: from Deal Hunt Deal, Maryland, but Liz in Nashville.
Speaker 3: Now. It was in his studio, like on the east
Speaker 3: side of town, and.
Speaker 2: Nice studio, man, really nice studio and like just his
Speaker 2: records and stuff.
Speaker 3: It was just like a cool experience to be in there.
Speaker 2: And yeah, but we really got into some really deep stuff.
Speaker 2: And I can't thank him enough for being so open
Speaker 2: about his own struggles with, you know, mental health, his
Speaker 2: speriences with using psychedelics, talking to friends about him. I
Speaker 2: think it was just a great conversation about what we're
Speaker 2: talking about here where it's not the right path for everyone,
Speaker 2: but we need to allow for these things to be
Speaker 2: discussed openly, honestly and allow for people to potentially gain
Speaker 2: the benefits of this if it makes sense for them.
Speaker 2: And I think just the way John went about it
Speaker 2: and talked to us about it, It was just a really
Speaker 2: cool conversation.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I think he was very real just about
Speaker 4: what worked for him.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I think if you're kind of a skeptic about a
Speaker 2: lot of this stuff, I think this is like a
Speaker 2: really good conversation because it came from someone that was
Speaker 2: a skeptic as well, and just kind of those discussions
Speaker 2: and what his experiences were in very detailed.
Speaker 5: And I don't want.
Speaker 3: To waste any more time on this.
Speaker 2: Good to it, Yeah, good to it now further ado
Speaker 2: here John Osborne.
Speaker 4: Hey, that me and Greg, our guests and sponsors may
Speaker 4: sound smart, we may even make some good points, but
Speaker 4: at the end of the day, we're not medical professional.
Speaker 5: Okay.
Speaker 4: Please don't get your medical advice from a podcast. Anything
Speaker 4: we say on here does not constitute official medical advice. Relax,
Speaker 4: consult your doctor before you start any new treatment plans.
Speaker 5: Got it.
Speaker 3: We are here in Nashville, Tennessee.
Speaker 5: Nashville.
Speaker 3: We were with.
Speaker 2: John Osborne right now, one half of the Brothers Osbourne.
Speaker 2: We are in his recording studio right outside of downtown
Speaker 2: on the east side of Nashville.
Speaker 4: Come cabin. Yeah, Grammy Winners CMA.
Speaker 1: Yeah, all the all the stuff, yes, as yeah.
Speaker 2: And the best part about him he grew up about
Speaker 2: thirty minutes away from me. We were talking before, so
Speaker 2: we're both Maryland boys. Yeah that was hunt.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I see the black eyed Susan.
Speaker 5: Uh that's right.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, everyone asks some of their daisies. Yeah, yeah, I know,
Speaker 1: never forget.
Speaker 3: Yeah, never forget never never spent some times in their preakness.
Speaker 1: Yeah, couple reading us all the stuff. I mean, what
Speaker 1: peop don't understand about Maryland. It's actually a big equine state,
Speaker 1: you know. So I like being in country music. Everyone goes,
Speaker 1: how did you get into that being from Maryland. I'm like,
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 5: I didn't know.
Speaker 1: I wasn't supposed to get into it. I mean, it's
Speaker 1: just it's mostly farms. I mean, how you go an
Speaker 1: hour out of any town and it's just farms, you know.
Speaker 5: But people like to draw lines. I have to raise
Speaker 5: something the horse.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: But yeah, thank you for joining us podcast man, and
Speaker 2: I'm really excited about this.
Speaker 5: The same fan for a while.
Speaker 2: Before we kind of get into a lot of the
Speaker 2: stuff we're going to talk about, let's talk about you,
Speaker 2: so born you know in Deal. It's a small town's
Speaker 2: on the water, over the water water.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we were, we were reliving our Maryland accents earlier.
Speaker 5: So no, I love.
Speaker 4: Learning about it because I didn't know that. Like, yeah,
Speaker 4: I love for.
Speaker 5: A couple of days of it.
Speaker 1: You'll be like you please stuff. But it's a small
Speaker 1: town called Deal, Maryland. It's on the it's on the
Speaker 1: chests beat Bed about forty five to fifty minutes east
Speaker 1: of d C. Where you live now, fifty minutes south
Speaker 1: of Baltimore. And yeah, man, it's just kind of a
Speaker 1: very humble town public school, played in bands, you know,
Speaker 1: just trying to pursue the American dream, you know, just
Speaker 1: kind of a small kid from nowhere.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And so you've been playing music your kind of whole
Speaker 2: life for your family? Were they musical or how that all?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 5: Yeah, man.
Speaker 1: So my both of my parents would sing and write songs.
Speaker 1: The reason why I ended up in Nashville is because
Speaker 1: they would come down to Nashville a lot as songwriters
Speaker 1: when we were kids. And it's a hard industry to
Speaker 1: get into. I mean, you know, you know, it is
Speaker 1: like being in comedy. It's like you have to commit
Speaker 1: so much of yourself to do it that they, you know,
Speaker 1: had kids that were at home and jobs and mortgage
Speaker 1: and all those things and just didn't quite work out
Speaker 1: for them. However, it did pave the way for my
Speaker 1: brother and I to feel like, okay, this seems possible
Speaker 1: because they they kind of started the trend for us.
Speaker 1: But it's something that we've always done, you know, always
Speaker 1: played music. Our parents would sit around the kitchen table
Speaker 1: and write and sing songs, and it was a very
Speaker 1: normal thing for us. We didn't realize it was abnormal
Speaker 1: until we left the nest.
Speaker 4: Right right. Were your parents weary about you going into
Speaker 4: it knowing how hard it was, or were they the
Speaker 4: ones like, oh, okay, we're going to tell you everything
Speaker 4: we know and we want to see y'all.
Speaker 1: That the second one, for sure, I'm grateful for that. Again,
Speaker 1: it's like you only know what you know. But our
Speaker 1: parents they were so so supportive. You know, they weren't
Speaker 1: necessarily helicopter parents by any stretch, but they were very,
Speaker 1: very supportive. And also they were kind of able to
Speaker 1: live vicariously through us. But we never felt pressured to
Speaker 1: do it. We come from, you know, quite a conservative area,
Speaker 1: but we were like this little like kind of progressive
Speaker 1: island within our town. Our parents would not care if
Speaker 1: we wanted to be mimes or we wanted to be
Speaker 1: a lawyer or a guitar player. They just do it
Speaker 1: and we'll support you one hundred percent. I'm very, very
Speaker 1: grateful for that. You know, I know a lot of
Speaker 1: people and our line of work that their parents weren't
Speaker 1: very supportive.
Speaker 5: I could imagine that was tough.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5: My parents were.
Speaker 3: My dad's a secret service age, Like he's a He
Speaker 3: still terrifies me to this, No I do.
Speaker 5: He's a big dude.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So like if I was like, yeah, I'm gonna head
Speaker 3: out and do a music career, he'd been like you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, you're out of your mind, And he
Speaker 1: would be right, because you are. In order to pursue
Speaker 1: something like that, you got to be a little crazy
Speaker 1: to you know. And I mean, I don't know, to
Speaker 1: be honest with you, I don't know. Thirty years later,
Speaker 1: I still don't know why I do it, Like I
Speaker 1: just am compelled. But you know, for everyone that succeeds
Speaker 1: one hundred fail and the successfully is so small, I
Speaker 1: understand why a parent would be weary of that because
Speaker 1: they would not want to watch their child fail at something,
Speaker 1: especially at music. It's you know, it's quite a self
Speaker 1: serving industry. I do it because I like it. I
Speaker 1: don't do it because I want to share my love
Speaker 1: and experience with the world. Now I do it because
Speaker 1: I enjoy it, and i'm you know, I don't know
Speaker 1: how to do anything else.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and your most kids suck at.
Speaker 4: That helps.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess that does kind of help have a
Speaker 1: natural ability. But even if you do, there's still a
Speaker 1: lot of luck involved. And I will admit, you know,
Speaker 1: the harder you work, the lucky you do become. And
Speaker 1: I work very, very hard, but I do know that
Speaker 1: there is also luck.
Speaker 5: Involved, of which I'm very grateful for.
Speaker 2: But that's you know, you got to be prepared to
Speaker 2: take those opportunities when they get it.
Speaker 3: That's what luck is, opportunity preparation exactly.
Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2: And just from my standpoint big country music fan, when
Speaker 2: you all were getting on the radio, I was kind
Speaker 2: of slowly drifting away from ever listening to country music
Speaker 2: radio a lot.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you both, there's Osborne kind.
Speaker 2: Of I was like, oh, thank fucking God, because I
Speaker 2: was living in Austin. I was hearing all this great
Speaker 2: red dirt country. I'm like, it's never on anything but
Speaker 2: like one little local channel or I'm like iPad and
Speaker 2: they're like finally, I'm like, oh this is actually And
Speaker 2: then there was like christ able To and there's a
Speaker 2: lot of these guys that really like I feel you.
Speaker 1: All were a hometown boys.
Speaker 5: Man.
Speaker 3: I was like, just you didn't even know.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2: So when I met my wife in Austin, one of
Speaker 2: the bars that we were out at the first night
Speaker 2: we had like dinner and went out. We were in
Speaker 2: West West sixth Street, Star Bar, Shout Out, Starbar. Brothers
Speaker 2: Osborne came on. We were kind of like drinking and
Speaker 2: dancing as a song we both liked and yeah, I laid.
Speaker 3: One honor at that point, I ever said, so to
Speaker 3: shake your hand.
Speaker 5: Yeah yeah, man alm a couple of beers.
Speaker 4: Yeah, he was a wingman from Afar.
Speaker 1: That's right, man, I'm here for you, dude. You named
Speaker 1: your first child after me. Oh man, But.
Speaker 4: I was going to ask you about you mentioned you've
Speaker 4: always had struggles with mental health. Yeah, just can you
Speaker 4: give us a little background or yeah, yeah, you said
Speaker 4: your whole life kind of.
Speaker 5: So yeah, yeah, totally.
Speaker 1: So I'll start about five years ago, in twenty nineteen,
Speaker 1: I was dealing with really, really bad anxiety. I dealt
Speaker 1: with anxiety kind of my whole life. I didn't know
Speaker 1: what it was for a long time. I just thought
Speaker 1: everyone kind of dealt with it, which everyone does have
Speaker 1: anxiety to a degree, but mine was starting to become debilitating.
Speaker 1: On stage, I never fel it, In fact, it was
Speaker 1: the only way I would stop feeling it. But before
Speaker 1: being on stage, and after being on stage, it was
Speaker 1: just like, I don't know.
Speaker 5: My mind was a mess.
Speaker 1: And then I ended up contracting something called tennitis or tenetist.
Speaker 5: Which is the ringing of the ears.
Speaker 1: I started losing sleep, and then it all kind of
Speaker 1: compounded it snowball effect. I wasn't sleeping, and I started
Speaker 1: like it was nearly psychosis level. It was in my
Speaker 1: mind and it was suicidal and all these things. And
Speaker 1: I started staying a lot, going to a lot of therapy.
Speaker 1: I had to do like a three week stint and
Speaker 1: basically rehab, but not for drugs or alcohol, just for
Speaker 1: mental health and tons of therapy.
Speaker 2: What was going on in your because you said you've
Speaker 2: grown up with anxiety. You know, your whole life, you
Speaker 2: didn't really know what it was. I feel very similar
Speaker 2: where I grew up anxiety. It was just kind of
Speaker 2: told like just calm down or like you're not yeah.
Speaker 5: Just don't be nervous.
Speaker 1: It's don't be nervous, like mom, just don't be anxious exactly.
Speaker 1: It's like telling me, like just dunk a basketball.
Speaker 5: I would do it if I hit me. You know.
Speaker 5: It's just a different thing, you know.
Speaker 1: I don't really know like pathologically, like where it would
Speaker 1: all stem from or anything like that.
Speaker 5: I do know though.
Speaker 1: As a kid, I was just like I constantly had
Speaker 1: this feeling of impending doom. That's something I was always
Speaker 1: waiting for the other shoe to drop.
Speaker 5: And I didn't really know why.
Speaker 1: I just I felt like someone had a gun to
Speaker 1: my head and I was like ship was about to write.
Speaker 5: A moment. And it was that way forty years, you know.
Speaker 1: And I learned that like through music that was really helpful.
Speaker 1: Like I learned how to play guitar, and I gave
Speaker 1: my I gave my brain something to focus on, which
Speaker 1: was I want to learn how to play guitar. I
Speaker 1: want to get better at this thing. It was almost
Speaker 1: like a puzzle, but it was also a way of
Speaker 1: expressing myself emotionally because I wasn't very good at doing
Speaker 1: it verbally. And I still am am that way to
Speaker 1: a bit, to quite an extreme. I've learned how to
Speaker 1: do it because of therapy, but as a kid, I
Speaker 1: just didn't know how to express myself emotionally at all.
Speaker 1: So fast forward this thing. I would go to my room,
Speaker 1: I would play guitar for hours. I loved it, and
Speaker 1: I just didn't want to be around people.
Speaker 5: And then that very.
Speaker 1: Thing ended up putting me in front of a tremendous
Speaker 1: amount of people, and I'm like, hang on, this is
Speaker 1: like the sword I'm falling on. Like I love doing
Speaker 1: this thing. I just want to sit in my room
Speaker 1: and play guitar. And I do like performing, like that
Speaker 1: part's really fun. But I'm having to interact with a
Speaker 1: lot of people on a daily basis, and I'm also
Speaker 1: facing such criticism and judgment from outside people that I've
Speaker 1: never met my fucking life, and it's it becomes important suddenly,
Speaker 1: and it all kind of like snowball from that to
Speaker 1: the point I couldn't escape it. Like I was playing
Speaker 1: music to get away from it. But that was the
Speaker 1: very thing putting me in front of it, so I
Speaker 1: didn't have an escape anymore. The only thing that I
Speaker 1: knew how to do growing up in a blue collar,
Speaker 1: working class family was just what my dad did when
Speaker 1: times were tough, You just work harder. So that's what
Speaker 1: I did. I buried myself in my work. I was
Speaker 1: in the studio, I was writing a ton I was
Speaker 1: working on the computer, whatever, playing stuff, anything that I
Speaker 1: could do that was not me dealing with my shit.
Speaker 1: I did until you know, you sweep something, you sweep
Speaker 1: it all under the rug enough to where the rug
Speaker 1: is sitting on top of a mountain. And that's where
Speaker 1: I was, and it all came crashing down in an
Speaker 1: epic way. You know, looking back, it was the best
Speaker 1: thing that would have happened to me. By the time,
Speaker 1: it was the hardest time in my life, no question.
Speaker 2: Okay, So you are released from you know, the treatment
Speaker 2: after you go in there and get checked and you
Speaker 2: said about three weeks, yeahs okay, what was the post
Speaker 2: release like treatment plan that they gave us? Like, what
Speaker 2: were you doing from a therapy standpoint, a medical thandpoint
Speaker 2: where you give the medications or what was that discussion about,
Speaker 2: and yeah.
Speaker 5: Be curious, Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1: So when they released me, I ended up working with
Speaker 1: a really great therapist in town, doing I think two
Speaker 1: a week with him. After three weeks of being gone,
Speaker 1: like and then coming back in like I didn't see
Speaker 1: a stop light, I didn't see a sign for a
Speaker 1: gas station. And when you're out like in the wilderness,
Speaker 1: when you don't see that stuff for three weeks, you
Speaker 1: when you see it for the first time, you're like, damn,
Speaker 1: this is what I see on a daily basis. This
Speaker 1: is way over stimulating. And and I I did basically
Speaker 1: a lot of therapy, a lot of other modalities. I
Speaker 1: ended up checking myself into another place called Rogers Behavioral
Speaker 1: Health for OCD.
Speaker 5: So I had tenantus.
Speaker 1: My ears were still ringing, having a lot of issues,
Speaker 1: and I was hoping that maybe if I could treat
Speaker 1: my obsessive compulsive disorder that it would help me learn
Speaker 1: how to deal with it. And Rogers' Behavioral Health for
Speaker 1: those that have debilitating the CD, is really really amazing
Speaker 1: to do great stuff. They do a lot of different
Speaker 1: types of therapy, exposure, responsible prevention therapy, cognitive behavioral therapy,
Speaker 1: all really really good things for that and people that
Speaker 1: suffer tenatus or tonight is. And in that time before
Speaker 1: I went there, I was also checked into a hospital
Speaker 1: because my attendants came back severely and they put me
Speaker 1: on an SSRI, which got me kind of in a
Speaker 1: place where I did not want to kill myself. In
Speaker 1: full disclosure, I'm still on that SSRI today because it
Speaker 1: does also it also.
Speaker 5: Sort of it helped with my ears ringing a little bit.
Speaker 3: And for people that don't know at home, SSRI.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just an anti depressidant, serotonin selective serotonin reuptake
Speaker 1: and and not that that matters. I don't even know why,
Speaker 1: but I did some research. I'm the kind of guy
Speaker 1: that thinks that could think my way out of anything.
Speaker 1: It's one of my greatest strengths and also one of
Speaker 1: my greatest faults. And I did some research on Reddit
Speaker 1: and I found that people were experimenting with with mushrooms
Speaker 1: for anxiety depression. And then I heard for tenatus and
Speaker 1: I thought, man, this is wild. And I had talked
Speaker 1: to some people prior to me going into rehab. I
Speaker 1: talked to a friend of mine who did a hero's
Speaker 1: dose I mean he said it changed his life.
Speaker 3: Is there a I guess there's no like medical standard
Speaker 3: for heroes do what is that?
Speaker 1: Yeah, a hero's dose is between three point five grams
Speaker 1: and five grams. I would imagine they get the three
Speaker 1: point five grams, is it? Because like for those of
Speaker 1: us who bought weed back in the day, that was
Speaker 1: an eighth you know, so three point five grams to five,
Speaker 1: But you would start at three point five and then
Speaker 1: if you are an hour to two hours in you
Speaker 1: felt like you needed more, they would give you. I
Speaker 1: think call it like a kicker or something like that.
Speaker 1: But it was another gram and a half. And I
Speaker 1: mean you are like, you are gone, baby. But but
Speaker 1: if you're ready for it, it's it's really really great.
Speaker 1: He was a really bad alcoholic, just a very unhealthy
Speaker 1: person dealing with really intense trauma and depression who was
Speaker 1: going to kill himself and as a hill Mary passed.
Speaker 1: He just did a big heroes dose and it changed
Speaker 1: his life. He's a completely changed man to this day.
Speaker 1: Every time I sam, I'm like, I love you dude,
Speaker 1: because he took the time out of his day. I
Speaker 1: didn't meet him until a year later to tell me
Speaker 1: about it. But at the time, I was just like,
Speaker 1: the idea of I was so messed up. But the
Speaker 1: idea of off, I take a mushrooms which I'd taken before,
Speaker 1: Like that sounds insane to me. I'm like, I was
Speaker 1: so afraid of even eating the wrong food. I was
Speaker 1: a mess. So after doing all of this therapy and
Speaker 1: I knew there was still a lot of work to
Speaker 1: be done and the SSRIs were okay, but they weren't.
Speaker 1: It wasn't really like crushing it. About a year later,
Speaker 1: I reached out to a friend of mine who does
Speaker 1: guided psilocybin trips, and I was very interested in the idea,
Speaker 1: but again just worried. I mean, I felt so delicate
Speaker 1: and I felt fragile. I felt like any wrong decision
Speaker 1: could just put me back to where I was, and
Speaker 1: it was terrifying. So, you know, I did. I read
Speaker 1: the Michael pollin book. I watched a bunch of interviews
Speaker 1: Michael polland I found Paul Stammettz that guy's kind of
Speaker 1: awesome and nutty and I like that.
Speaker 5: And again going on Reddit, like reading.
Speaker 1: A bunch of I don't know, kind of anecdotal stories,
Speaker 1: and I talked to my friend who helps people help.
Speaker 5: I won't name any names because it's still ille later.
Speaker 1: And he's a lovely, lovely, lovely guy. And his wife
Speaker 1: was a nurse, was a doctor, and she was convincing,
Speaker 1: and I thought, you know what, I'm just going to
Speaker 1: do it.
Speaker 5: I'm going to do it. And I mentally prepared myself
Speaker 5: for doing it. And I knew I.
Speaker 1: Had done so much work, so much therapy, so much
Speaker 1: self reflection. I was on these SSRIs. I felt strong
Speaker 1: going into it, like I'm not afraid, and I felt
Speaker 1: ready for whatever is going to happen. I'm ready for
Speaker 1: I'm very much like talking about playing in front of
Speaker 1: eighty thousand people. I'll do it as long as I
Speaker 1: feel prepared, and I have to be prepared for this moment.
Speaker 1: And again, this is someone that has experimented with a
Speaker 1: lot of different drugs recreationally. And I had so much
Speaker 1: fun on mushrooms. I've had a weird experience of mushrooms
Speaker 1: that was not very fun, so I was familiar with it,
Speaker 1: but in this state, I was just kind of it's
Speaker 1: a heavy thing to do.
Speaker 3: You know, were you with anyone in the room or
Speaker 3: were you on the guy? Yeah, who was kind of.
Speaker 1: Well, my friend who was doing who still is doing
Speaker 1: GUYIDS Guided trips, he was there and you are with him.
Speaker 1: And so for those of you that don't know about this,
Speaker 1: there is a playlist on Spotify that is about six
Speaker 1: hours long that is music to guide you through this journey.
Speaker 1: And it's kind of like, you know, a progressive musical journey,
Speaker 1: even if you're sober.
Speaker 5: It is beautiful to listen to. When you take these drugs.
Speaker 1: It's supposed to make you feel like it's taking you
Speaker 1: where you need to go and what There are two
Speaker 1: very important things when taking psychedelics is set and setting.
Speaker 1: Set being your mindset you're feeling are going into it.
Speaker 1: Setting being where you are and who you're with. And
Speaker 1: those are two of the biggest things. And I know
Speaker 1: from experience that those things are very important because it
Speaker 1: can go south if they're not right. Noticed too boy,
Speaker 1: and it just feels like forever you know, and you
Speaker 1: just got to wait it out. There's there's no rushing
Speaker 1: through it. So knowing those things and trusting him and
Speaker 1: knowing that he had already done it with well of
Speaker 1: one hundred people at this point, I was I just
Speaker 1: wanted to resign to the idea just let go, so
Speaker 1: come to it. And I drank three and a half grams,
Speaker 1: which is a lot of mushrooms, and listen to this playlist,
Speaker 1: and I knew I had a lot to work on.
Speaker 1: And then about an hour and a half been I
Speaker 1: was just my body melted. I was melting into this
Speaker 1: bed that I was. It was my bed, and I felt,
Speaker 1: I guess they would call it ego disillusionment, but I felt,
Speaker 1: you feel this one with the universe. It sounds kind
Speaker 1: of cheesy, but once you strip this ego away that
Speaker 1: we all have, you realize that we're actually quite connected.
Speaker 1: You know, we're all part of this fabric of space
Speaker 1: and time or energy or God, whatever you.
Speaker 5: Want to call it.
Speaker 1: Something to vine And I was able to see my
Speaker 1: life experience almost visually at times from an outside perspective.
Speaker 1: I saw like this little kid who was sweet and
Speaker 1: kind and sensitive and also picked on as a kid
Speaker 1: because I was just kind of like it was way
Speaker 1: too innocent for this world, you know. And I just
Speaker 1: kind of saw the people in my life that have
Speaker 1: maybe maybe wronged me when I was young, feeling love
Speaker 1: and compassion for them and thinking, wow, this is so overwhelming.
Speaker 1: But one of the things that I ask you to
Speaker 1: do and going into this is you have to set
Speaker 1: an intention. And I have an issue with feeling happy,
Speaker 1: not in the sense of like I need pills that
Speaker 1: made me happy. I've always felt guilty if I was successful,
Speaker 1: or I always felt guilty if I was happy with something,
Speaker 1: or I felt if I was happy, something bad was
Speaker 1: going to happen. So I still struggle with it. I'm
Speaker 1: better at it. I set that intention, and I kind
Speaker 1: of remember this. But the guy that I the trip
Speaker 1: was said, I laid on that bed and I smiled
Speaker 1: for five hours straight, and about halfway through he asked
Speaker 1: me how I was doing if I wanted some more,
Speaker 1: and I said I wanted more because I wanted to
Speaker 1: do it. I wanted to really just give all of
Speaker 1: myself to this thing. I took more, went to the bathroom.
Speaker 1: That was crazy, so I was tripping my ass off.
Speaker 5: So long. My god, it does, dude.
Speaker 1: You're like totally start checking the calendar, like how long
Speaker 1: have I been in there? And so you know, you
Speaker 1: go back in, you put the headphones back on, and
Speaker 1: you're right back where you were, and I just like
Speaker 1: felt so much peace and so much love, and I
Speaker 1: felt so unrestrained from being happy. And it like the
Speaker 1: visual side of things. It aren't a lot of visuals
Speaker 1: because what I didn't mention is you're wearing an iemask
Speaker 1: so you can really focus internally, the headphones on and
Speaker 1: an imask, and it was the closest I'm not a
Speaker 1: religious person.
Speaker 5: I'm not.
Speaker 1: I'm agnostic. I'll say that I'm not an atheist. I
Speaker 1: don't know enough to be an atheist, also know enough
Speaker 1: to be that religious, but I will say I'm agnostic.
Speaker 1: And after doing that, it makes you realize that there
Speaker 1: is something far greater beyond our understanding.
Speaker 5: Of this world.
Speaker 1: You know, and you feel quite connected. After coming out
Speaker 1: of it, I felt a piece that I hadn't felt
Speaker 1: maybe in my life. It was probably the most peaceful
Speaker 1: and calm I had ever felt in my entire life.
Speaker 1: And I would say that lasted about three or four
Speaker 1: months after that. The problem is, you know, life happens,
Speaker 1: and you get back into your ego and you get back.
Speaker 5: Into the swing of things.
Speaker 1: However, no matter where I'm at in my life, I
Speaker 1: can always resort back to that moment and go, Okay,
Speaker 1: what did I learn? And I'm still gaining knowledge from that,
Speaker 1: and that was four years ago, and again I had
Speaker 1: done it a bunch of times before it, and it
Speaker 1: can be very fun, But that was the one of
Speaker 1: the single most important decisions I've ever made for myself
Speaker 1: in my life.
Speaker 5: Still to this day.
Speaker 3: I'm curious.
Speaker 2: So, being that you had taken them recreationally before, what
Speaker 2: was the difference between those and then, like, was there
Speaker 2: a different track for you because you've had experience with
Speaker 2: it before.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, so I think the main difference is the
Speaker 1: intention behind it. Right, So before I was like, let's
Speaker 1: take some mushrooms and go to a concert, which is
Speaker 1: very very fun, don't get me wrong, it's awesome, But
Speaker 1: it's about setting an intention, you know, like why are
Speaker 1: you doing it? So this is a this was a medicine,
Speaker 1: right Initially? Yeah, most things that we take started out
Speaker 1: as some sort of medicine that we were used by
Speaker 1: some sort of natives somewhere around the world. And then
Speaker 1: you realize if you do a lot of it, it
Speaker 1: makes you feel crazy. Of course, you know, it's college schedule.
Speaker 1: Like if I take a lot more, then it's even crazier, right,
Speaker 1: And then you take too many and you're like okay,
Speaker 1: that was. But when you go into it with the
Speaker 1: intention of self discovery and helping yourself and learning yourself,
Speaker 1: especially when you are listening to this playlist, and especially
Speaker 1: when you have an imask on, because so much of
Speaker 1: it can be visual, and you're distracted by the visual
Speaker 1: side of things, and it's really fun, it's cool, it's wacky.
Speaker 1: But when you don't have those things distracting you, you
Speaker 1: become so focused internally that you put like a microscope
Speaker 1: on your life. And there is a side to it
Speaker 1: that you do. I have read because of Michael Polla
Speaker 1: and How to Change Your Mind book, but it does
Speaker 1: actually rewire your brain. There's a thing called neuroplasticity. Our
Speaker 1: brains are ever changing. It slows down as we get older.
Speaker 1: You know, when you're a teenager or a young kid.
Speaker 1: I have eighteen month old friends at home. I mean,
Speaker 1: the neuroplasticity thing is going hate like haywire. Whereas when
Speaker 1: you're older it does slow down. However, it doesn't stop
Speaker 1: until you die. Well, when you do psilocybin, it almost
Speaker 1: brings you back to being a child again in the
Speaker 1: amount of change that your brain can make. And that
Speaker 1: is the moment when you go in with that intention
Speaker 1: of wanting to fix yourself or help yourself learn about yourself.
Speaker 1: Your brain is pliable in that moment. When you do therapy,
Speaker 1: and I have done tons of therapy, it takes a
Speaker 1: long long time to really notice a result. I recommend
Speaker 1: it to anyone. It's very good for you. It's good
Speaker 1: to talk about it. But we're talking about things at
Speaker 1: a subconscious level. Consciously, we could go consciously, our parents
Speaker 1: would go, just don't be anxious. Well, yeah, consciously, that
Speaker 1: makes sense. We're talking about things at a subconscious level. Then,
Speaker 1: you know, the lizard brain whatever you want to call it, mushrooms,
Speaker 1: gets right to that part of your brain and goes,
Speaker 1: all right, let's get to work. Fix, let's fix some stuff,
Speaker 1: let's learn some stuff. And it's like doing ten years
Speaker 1: of therapy in.
Speaker 5: About six hours. You look and word.
Speaker 1: If you look out word again, it's fun. Colors, colors, man,
Speaker 1: it's beautiful, you're in space, it's awesome. But if you
Speaker 1: look inWORD, there's a lot of work that you can
Speaker 1: get done, and it's very intense, and that type of
Speaker 1: work shouldn't just be a walk in the park. But
Speaker 1: the results are profound.
Speaker 4: I like how you put that, because I don't think
Speaker 4: I've ever heard anybody express it that like clearly. Like
Speaker 4: we were saying earlier, people be like, well, you took
Speaker 4: mushrooms before, you took them again and now all of
Speaker 4: a sudden, But it sounds like you went in with intention.
Speaker 4: Plus you were coming out of the therapy, so you
Speaker 4: had a new set of tools and things take in there.
Speaker 4: Most people you hear about people micro doos and that's
Speaker 4: kind of the.
Speaker 1: New microdos, and I do microdose, you know frequently. Microdosing
Speaker 1: is different. It's kind of I'm guessing what would be
Speaker 1: like a macro doose, but slowly over time, doing a
Speaker 1: macrodos is just like you know, a microdose would be.
Speaker 5: Like you have a house, right and.
Speaker 1: You're like, you know, I'm gonna it's kind of painting
Speaker 1: this wall a little bit dirty. You know, maybe after
Speaker 1: a couple of years of that, your house certainly looked different,
Speaker 1: new fresh. What I'm doing a big heroes doing five
Speaker 1: grams is are going in there with such hand, right,
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna ship.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's a lot of work, makeover.
Speaker 1: Makeover, and we're going to get in there and we
Speaker 1: are going and We're going to do it, you know,
Speaker 1: and it's gonna be work, and but by the end
Speaker 1: of it, I'm going to have a beautiful home that's
Speaker 1: just like, you know, it's no different than the home
Speaker 1: that I've had my whole life.
Speaker 5: It's just tidy.
Speaker 1: It's like, you know, it's just going through your house
Speaker 1: and cleaning everything up. Man, It's just it becomes so
Speaker 1: much more bearable. It should be treated as a medicine.
Speaker 1: That's really what it was intended for, you know, it
Speaker 1: should be treated as a medicine. I would venture to
Speaker 1: say most drugs that we take were initially used medicinally.
Speaker 1: We just decided to take more and see what happens.
Speaker 2: Right, And you look at like you said, our efficacy,
Speaker 2: like if antidepressants are boosting euro up like two percent
Speaker 2: based upon PLACEA, I was like, it's very simar actually
Speaker 2: what I do in like criminal justice system, It's like,
Speaker 2: what is the c that you're defending that makes people
Speaker 2: fail like seven out of ten time really getting rearrested.
Speaker 2: You're saying this is success, Like it's very similar.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, you know, it is.
Speaker 1: Quite frustrating, you know, especially from my own perspective. Granted,
Speaker 1: I'm one guy, you know, so it seems anecdotal, but
Speaker 1: the more you start peeling it back, you realize that
Speaker 1: there are a lot of similar stories to me. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, I had my dad sit in this very
Speaker 1: room on that couch over there about a year and
Speaker 1: a half ago, and he did it like we need
Speaker 1: because it gives you this is the work that we
Speaker 1: need to be doing. So my dad was a little
Speaker 1: bit skeptical, because I think anyone should be a little
Speaker 1: skeptical because it's not necessarily a walk in the park,
Speaker 1: but it shouldn't be like. It can be really fun,
Speaker 1: but it can also be really scary because you're confronting
Speaker 1: a lot of things about your subconscious that you ignore
Speaker 1: on a daily basis. And my dad has a lot
Speaker 1: of childhood trauma. His childhood was very, very tricky. But
Speaker 1: he's a lovely man, works really hard, he's provided for
Speaker 1: the kids, but he carries a lot of things that
Speaker 1: really I think he struggles with to this day. And
Speaker 1: I just after doing this trip, and my dad was
Speaker 1: a hippie, you know, kind of a culture hippie, spoke weed,
Speaker 1: He's on all the drugs, but he was a little
Speaker 1: bit like nervous. The more I talked about it. After
Speaker 1: my first experience, I see like his eyes get really curious.
Speaker 1: And he did it, and I felt he was a
Speaker 1: lot lighter on his feet the next day, and in
Speaker 1: weeks went by and he's like, I'm still kind of
Speaker 1: figuring it out, like you know, you can't. It's almost
Speaker 1: like learning a truth. It's not a bad truth, it's
Speaker 1: not a good truth. It's just a truth that you
Speaker 1: didn't know existed your whole life, and you have got
Speaker 1: to process that. And I think he's still processing it
Speaker 1: to this day. And it was a beautiful thing and
Speaker 1: I saw it change his life. And since then, I've
Speaker 1: had a ton of friends do it. My wife has
Speaker 1: done it, and I've seen some just amazing effects. I'm
Speaker 1: just I'm very thankful for for mushrooms. I hadn't even
Speaker 1: calling it a drug, you know, again, being a child,
Speaker 1: a child of the DARE program, it's just like there
Speaker 1: was just like drugs and then there's just aren't. Then
Speaker 1: there aren't drugs. That's just so true. That's just the drugs,
Speaker 1: you know, so.
Speaker 4: Off the top of a building and the street, you always.
Speaker 2: Killed yourself, you always, you know, And I'd see one
Speaker 2: kid jump off a building once. I thought I was
Speaker 2: gonna die from you, like, jumping off a building or
Speaker 2: quicksand yeah, like a lot of people die from quick
Speaker 2: sand and.
Speaker 4: People up building was running from the cops, Like that's
Speaker 4: the only time.
Speaker 1: I know, man, It's it was definitely a weird thing.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 1: There's this stigma against it, you know, which is why
Speaker 1: I'm quite open. Was why I'm doing this podcast with y'all,
Speaker 1: and I'm very open about it. I'm open about my
Speaker 1: mental health. I want to stigmatize one mental health, especially
Speaker 1: for men, something that we have a harder time talking
Speaker 1: about because of our society, you know, in the way
Speaker 1: that we might have been brought up culturally. But I
Speaker 1: also want to do stigmatize psilocybin in particular. You know,
Speaker 1: Like I'm glad that you are in You're in reform
Speaker 1: because we need to do those things that, like, our
Speaker 1: criminal justice system is pretty fucked up and it puts
Speaker 1: people in the cross hairs, a lot of good people
Speaker 1: in the crossairs for wrong reasons. But we're looking at
Speaker 1: something that could profoundly change people's lives. It has profoundly
Speaker 1: changed my life, my wife's life, my dad's wife, all
Speaker 1: of my friends around me that have done it, like
Speaker 1: I have seen it with my own fucking eyes, you know.
Speaker 1: And this is a guy that has taken SSRIs and
Speaker 1: knows that, Like, yeah, I can be helpful, but I
Speaker 1: wouldn't recommend it to everyone. Hell, the first SSRI took,
Speaker 1: I can't remember the name of it, but that made
Speaker 1: me want to kill myself more like I was coming unglued,
Speaker 1: like I was scared for my life.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's multiple lexturally it can increase suicide initially, and yeah,
Speaker 2: to give that any it was crazy. I felt like
Speaker 2: I was going fucking nuts, man. And I know what
Speaker 2: it has helped people, but god damn it, Like you
Speaker 2: are prescribing that. I was prescribed that by a doctor.
Speaker 1: And I like our FDA can approve like any more
Speaker 1: studies on psilocybin like studies, I'm just like, what kind
Speaker 1: of backwards world are we living in here?
Speaker 5: Interesting?
Speaker 1: So, you know, I'm grateful that you guys asked me
Speaker 1: to be a part of this because I want to
Speaker 1: be one of the people.
Speaker 5: It's gonna take an army.
Speaker 1: It's gonna take y'all and other people talking about it
Speaker 1: to kind of change the just the stigma and the
Speaker 1: conversation around it, you know, I mean, and I know
Speaker 1: I've friends that passed away from fentanyl a few years
Speaker 1: ago because here is back at work, he got on
Speaker 1: some painkillers, pain they quick prescribe pain killers, end up
Speaker 1: doing heroin, heroin, this fentel and at the end, and
Speaker 1: that story is very common, very very common to I
Speaker 1: know people that won't do smoke pot. Like my friend's
Speaker 1: dad just was diagnosed to stage for pacreatic cancer. You
Speaker 1: won't smoke pot because of the stigma around pot. He's like, Dad,
Speaker 1: it could help you your appetite and it can help
Speaker 1: pick pain away and give you some comments like I'm
Speaker 1: not going to do it because it's drugs.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 1: Like this whole thing is so fucking backwards and fucked
Speaker 1: up that we need to be talking about it. We
Speaker 1: need to make part of the conversation because people's lives
Speaker 1: and livelihoods are at stake. People are in jail, people
Speaker 1: are dying all of these things because we have this
Speaker 1: misunderstanding of what this quote unquote drug thing is.
Speaker 4: And then also I think so much stuff like the
Speaker 4: older people, I think just it's illegal. That's a lot
Speaker 4: of the old people's argue. That's like, of course we
Speaker 4: got the stigma of drugs. You go, it would kill you.
Speaker 4: But a lot of them, like my mom was like,
Speaker 4: well if it wasn't illegal, and I'm like, I'm in California,
Speaker 4: it's legal here.
Speaker 1: Try I know, I know, and it is really funny.
Speaker 1: I don't want to do it because it's legal. But
Speaker 1: a lot of those things, people are like, why don't
Speaker 1: trust the government because they give money to these people and.
Speaker 5: Make up your mind?
Speaker 1: Man, yeah, pick aln And it's like, you know, just
Speaker 1: be educated about it. And that's the thing about drugs
Speaker 1: in general. I mean we try to generalize everything, and
Speaker 1: then what happens. People end up in jail. People miss
Speaker 1: opportunities to treat themselves with certain drugs like cannabis or whatever,
Speaker 1: and people miss opportunities to take care of themselves like
Speaker 1: I did with psilocybin.
Speaker 5: And I mean, who knows.
Speaker 1: If I kept going down the path that I was going,
Speaker 1: I could have killed myself. I was standing at the
Speaker 1: edge of the cliff, not physically but psychologically, and I
Speaker 1: was staring under the abyss and I was like, I
Speaker 1: think I might try it. I didn't, fortunately, and I
Speaker 1: do attribute a lot of that to my experience that
Speaker 1: six hours of my psilocybin treatment. It's still to this day,
Speaker 1: I go back there when I have to, and it's
Speaker 1: just one of the most profound lessons ever. And until
Speaker 1: we get people talking about this, it'll, unfortunately, I think,
Speaker 1: just stay that way.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 2: No, it's it is the normalizing, it's the abvoscy. It's
Speaker 2: showing that hey, I'm in X situation in this. I
Speaker 2: know in Kentucky for example, like Dakota Meyer is a
Speaker 2: Medal of Honor recipient and he's former military's like, I've
Speaker 2: lost more people here to addiction than I ever did
Speaker 2: in Fallouja or my tours. And so that's profound and
Speaker 2: that's impactful. If he doesn't talk, maybe certain lawmakers don't
Speaker 2: listen very least.
Speaker 3: It is not a past.
Speaker 5: It's to one of the guys that went to DC.
Speaker 2: He's been a here and done a lot of advocacy
Speaker 2: on Yeah, he's been outside the White House front.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm the only living Medal of Honor recipients ever.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, I remember I heard that an interview
Speaker 1: about that guy, and we need more people like him.
Speaker 1: I mean it's it's the best place to start, you know,
Speaker 1: start with our troops, like they have sacrificed so much
Speaker 1: and they are given so little when they get back
Speaker 1: and they are left to just pick up the pieces
Speaker 1: on their own. I mean, do anything that it takes
Speaker 1: to make this man feel better or woman feel better,
Speaker 1: because they deserve it more than anyone, you know. And
Speaker 1: why will we take that opportunity from these people?
Speaker 4: You know?
Speaker 5: John? Awesome? Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 2: Is there any foundations, organizations, or anything that you'd like
Speaker 2: to advocate for reach out? Like, Hey, I'm really interested
Speaker 2: in hearing about John, and maybe this is right for
Speaker 2: me if they're a listener, Like where would you recommend
Speaker 2: people kind of start or you know, anything that.
Speaker 5: You absolutely well.
Speaker 1: I will say first and foremost, if you deal with anxiety,
Speaker 1: just know that it's it's a normal thing. I'm saying
Speaker 1: the things that I wish I I someone told me
Speaker 1: when I was going through it that it's a normal
Speaker 1: thing that's meant to keep you alive. It's your brain
Speaker 1: thinking that it's doing something good for you. So don't
Speaker 1: give yourself two hard a time about it. If you
Speaker 1: need help, get help, if you need to take SSRIs
Speaker 1: or any type of end to press and present. Take them.
Speaker 1: And if you want to experiment with any type of
Speaker 1: psilocybin or psychedelic journey, there are a million videos. I mean,
Speaker 1: just go go to YouTube type of Michael polland mushrooms
Speaker 1: and just watch every video.
Speaker 5: That dude is a fucking rock star.
Speaker 1: In my opinion, he's amazing, and he will make you
Speaker 1: feel so calm about it, and just like, be patient,
Speaker 1: give yourself time, you know.
Speaker 5: I you know, if you want to.
Speaker 1: Look into MAPS, which is the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies,
Speaker 1: that's something that has done a lot of work and
Speaker 1: that's really phenomenal. And you know, again from a from
Speaker 1: a mental health perspective, just be patient and treat yourself
Speaker 1: with love, treat yourself like you would treat any person
Speaker 1: that you love, and you know, everything will be fine.
Speaker 1: And if you want to take some mushrooms, shit and change.
Speaker 2: I'm telling you, But John, I think particularly like coming
Speaker 2: from where I covering you a big group of friends,
Speaker 2: I did too like talking about these things in these
Speaker 2: types of very much show you know, industries and things
Speaker 2: like that.
Speaker 3: I think it's so helpful and so thank you. What
Speaker 3: you're doing.
Speaker 2: I know that there's a lot of people that are
Speaker 2: probably huge country music fans, huge fans of you, that
Speaker 2: have never heard that before.
Speaker 1: And it all starts with it's got to enter the consciousness.
Speaker 1: It's got to enter the narrative. We've got to talk
Speaker 1: about it. More you talk about something, the less it
Speaker 1: stigmatizes it. More you talk about psilocybin therapy, the less
Speaker 1: it stigmatizes it. More you talk about mental health. Every
Speaker 1: time I bring it up, especially around a bunch of dudes,
Speaker 1: I have never once, never once felt judgment. It's always
Speaker 1: been intrigue and I always they'll always go, hey, I
Speaker 1: struggle with that too. I don't talk about it, and
Speaker 1: then they start unload andy, start asking me questions or
Speaker 1: my brother has got really bad anxiety, can you help
Speaker 1: me there? So people, it's like this unwritten rule that
Speaker 1: we're not supposed to talk about it, but really everyone
Speaker 1: wants to talk about So the more we discuss it,
Speaker 1: the more it becomes part of the guys, I think
Speaker 1: the better.
Speaker 4: Totally agree.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's a great note to close on.
Speaker 2: Ye John thinks so with some brothers Osborne, they're bringing
Speaker 2: awesome Yeah.
Speaker 5: Thank you again. Thank you, Thank you so much.
Speaker 4: That was awesome. John Osborne Man was a great interview.
Speaker 4: Good interview man. I like, I liked what he was
Speaker 4: talking about. I like how he was able to find
Speaker 4: his way out the situation he was in and also
Speaker 4: pull others out. Yeah, reach out to friends who were
Speaker 4: having suicidal thoughts.
Speaker 2: I mean, like, hey, if this works for me, maybe
Speaker 2: think about this for you.
Speaker 4: And even to his dad, you know, at that age.
Speaker 4: And yeah, so I.
Speaker 2: Hear so many more stories about that, Like I don't
Speaker 2: think like five years ago, I was sitting around with
Speaker 2: friends being like and they were like, oh yeah, I
Speaker 2: was getting my mom a gummy to help with.
Speaker 3: Her you know, sleep or with you know whatever.
Speaker 2: But you're hearing those conversations like a little bit here
Speaker 2: and there like oh yeah, my my mom or my
Speaker 2: like I gave to my sister, Like because people are
Speaker 2: starting to hear like these stories more and more from
Speaker 2: people like hey, this had a profound impact on my life.
Speaker 2: And you know, I'm not a doctor or anything, but
Speaker 2: I know, you know, when we're looking at kind of
Speaker 2: what works and what doesn't. If you know, SSRIs and
Speaker 2: other antidosins and traditional methods of dealing with depression and
Speaker 2: PTSD and all these things aren't effective for you because
Speaker 2: the data shows like it's effective.
Speaker 3: For some and not for others.
Speaker 2: You're screwed, like you're So we need to give other
Speaker 2: options like this for people, particularly when we've seen, you know,
Speaker 2: a psilocybin research has come in the largest phase two
Speaker 2: trial suggests that a twenty five milligram dose of psilocybin
Speaker 2: with psychotherapy before and after the dosing was associated with
Speaker 2: a rapid and sustained antidepressant effect measured by a change
Speaker 2: and depress the symptoms scores. And so that's from a
Speaker 2: JAMA study. And there's there's other ones on psychedelics showing
Speaker 2: strong therapeutic effects with other ones either at being ayahuasca
Speaker 2: or MDMA or in particular psilocybin as we've seen, and
Speaker 2: that's really profound. And all we're saying is that these
Speaker 2: should be open to discuss with medical professionals and are
Speaker 2: these the right things for you? Because we've seen the
Speaker 2: problems that mental health and drug addiction can bring and
Speaker 2: those go hand in hand so often, and it's kind
Speaker 2: of the chicken and the egg thing where the depression
Speaker 2: comes and then does the substance. You know, it all
Speaker 2: kind of builds off each other when it came first,
Speaker 2: and they're all kind of bad and they.
Speaker 4: Fuel each other.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 4: And I also think, you know, a lot of times
Speaker 4: I don't hear people talk about psychedelics, yeah, in the
Speaker 4: way that he did, like, and I think that's most
Speaker 4: people's understanding is you use them for fun, and you
Speaker 4: use it to but it can be a tool that
Speaker 4: can actually be beneficial.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And I think like his shift in like his understanding
Speaker 2: of it, because it was, like you said, it was
Speaker 2: like these aren't for things for like medicinal you know,
Speaker 2: these are parties or whatever. And his shift and understanding
Speaker 2: of like their purposes and maybe what they're able to do.
Speaker 2: It almost feels like how our culture and society is.
Speaker 2: Like I think we are starting to see that shift
Speaker 2: of like frankly, in public policy, it's for me a
Speaker 2: lot easier to talk to people now about psilocybin and
Speaker 2: these therapeutics, and it is about cannabis in a lot
Speaker 2: of ways because they think of like the recreational aspect
Speaker 2: of cannabis and there's you know, a scent factor. It's
Speaker 2: very open, but there is actually a much more. I
Speaker 2: think openness to some of this stuff at like a
Speaker 2: more local level, and even with people that you might
Speaker 2: not think, like Kentucky is like really trying to do
Speaker 2: some stuff like this, and it's being led by like
Speaker 2: you know, you know, Republican lawmakers and Democrats are coming.
Speaker 2: So it's like strange bedfellows are all come this realization
Speaker 2: about that. The veteran community has been really big on it.
Speaker 2: So it's actually like in a way, because the medicinal
Speaker 2: values are so clear cut and you're able to show
Speaker 2: these things with this, it's like I have PTSD and
Speaker 2: now I do not. I think that's just easier for
Speaker 2: people to get their head around. So it's been it's
Speaker 2: been an easier process right now.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I can also see that. I guess maybe
Speaker 4: because people don't believe weed smokers. You know, like you're
Speaker 4: saying it helps with pain. No, you're not. You just
Speaker 4: like to get that's always gonna be the underlying thing.
Speaker 4: I think with weed smokers. You're saying, you're saying it
Speaker 4: does this. You're saying, so, yeah, that's that's funny. You
Speaker 4: say that that people are more accepting to the psychedelics.
Speaker 3: There really are.
Speaker 2: Yeah, seeing this and seeing more people and kind of
Speaker 2: those strange bedfellows of folks being like, hey, this actually
Speaker 2: is beneficial, it's actually been.
Speaker 3: I'd rather go in.
Speaker 2: I think it's gonna be a It's a less confrontational
Speaker 2: discussion talking about psilocybin than it is with cannabis.
Speaker 4: Of this platt So that's great.
Speaker 3: Easing to think about.
Speaker 2: But it's also to think about the way we talk
Speaker 2: about cannabis and policy and discussions like there does need
Speaker 2: to be a little bit more I think professionalism and
Speaker 2: professionalization about like discussions, yeah, because it is kind of
Speaker 2: led by hippies sometimes yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4: And also the you know, like you just kind of said,
Speaker 4: people went in trying to get the prescriptions, so people
Speaker 4: don't trust weed smokers all the way, you know, and
Speaker 4: the face that they have of weed smokers is counterculture,
Speaker 4: the link when youth, things like that, and if you
Speaker 4: can have the face of psilocybin being our veterans, are
Speaker 4: people who are PTSD, are people who have anxiety and
Speaker 4: they're able to come out of that. I think everybody's
Speaker 4: affected by those things, you know. I think people can
Speaker 4: kind of like zero in on what they don't like
Speaker 4: about weed without looking at what it can benefit. And
Speaker 4: it's harder to do that with psilocybin because I think
Speaker 4: more people aren't as familiar with it.
Speaker 2: I think you're totally right, and that's what kind of
Speaker 2: brings it out.
Speaker 3: So we'll see, you know.
Speaker 2: But again, you know, like things with like the opioid epidemic,
Speaker 2: you've seen how like things like iba gain it's a
Speaker 2: shrub that you know, we talked to most ethorts about
Speaker 2: that that you know significantly reduces you know, opiate you know,
Speaker 2: withdrawals and symptoms and wanting to go back to it
Speaker 2: and all these things.
Speaker 4: And there's also things that have been there. These are things.
Speaker 4: Psilocybin has been here. The mushrooms have been there, I
Speaker 4: be again has been there.
Speaker 2: You can pluck a mushroom and pop it like and
Speaker 2: that's you don't have to still it.
Speaker 4: Yet don't because I don't know, I mean, unless you've
Speaker 4: got a field guide to mushrooms and then still probably don't.
Speaker 4: But yeah, a lot of natural things, like like you said,
Speaker 4: we've been so dependent on the pharmaceuticals and farm and
Speaker 4: that I think it's probably even more stuff that we've
Speaker 4: forgotten about.
Speaker 2: Sure, probably agree now, and thanks again John Osborne. Absolutely, Yeah,
Speaker 2: this has been an amazing interview. And next week I
Speaker 2: was on the road solo for this next interview.
Speaker 4: Oh yeah yeah.
Speaker 2: Riley Coote, who if anyone watch hockey, he is the
Speaker 2: He was like the enforcer, bruiser guy. He was the
Speaker 2: one getting into fights for the flyers in the It
Speaker 2: was mid early two thousand when I was in like college.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Philly guy. Yeah, Rossey bullies.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so like being he was the guy that was
Speaker 2: like the bully, and so he talks about that, and
Speaker 2: you know, it's awesome when you're like twenty one and
Speaker 2: you're watching him fist by and then you get older
Speaker 2: and you start learning bout stuff. It's like, oh, I'd
Speaker 2: be really interested to hear about like what that looks like.
Speaker 2: And he has such an amazing perspective because he had
Speaker 2: to be this tough, mating guy that just took so
Speaker 2: much trauma and then you don't think about day and
Speaker 2: day out, waking up like I gotta go fight the
Speaker 2: end today, like that's it's.
Speaker 3: Gotta be pain.
Speaker 2: And he just talks about the physical mental toll. It's
Speaker 2: such an amazing interview to kind of hear that and
Speaker 2: where he's at right now, and how a lot of
Speaker 2: the therapies that we've already talked about today with like John,
Speaker 2: you know, some of his experience and stories to share.
Speaker 3: So really great interview.
Speaker 2: You can't wait for y'all to hear it.
Speaker 3: Until next time.
Speaker 5: I'm Greg Glad in English.
Speaker 3: And that was the War on drugs.
Speaker 2: Yeah, The War on Drugs is a production of Lava
Speaker 2: for Good and Stand Together Music and association with Signal
Speaker 2: Company Number one. Stand Together Music unites musicians and their
Speaker 2: teams with proven change makers to co create solutions to
Speaker 2: some of the most pressing issues in our country, including
Speaker 2: criminal justice, for foreign addiction recovery, mental health, education, free speech,
Speaker 2: and ending the War on drugs. Learn more at Standogether
Speaker 2: Music dot org. Be sure to follow Lava for Good
Speaker 2: on Instagram, Facebook and threads at Lava for Good. You
Speaker 2: can follow Clayton English on Instagram, n X at Clayton English,
Speaker 2: and you can follow Greg Laude on Instagram and on
Speaker 2: X at Greg Latt. Executive producers Jason Flamm, Jeff Kempler,
Speaker 2: Kevin Wardis, and Collette Wintraub. Senior producers Kelsey Stenecker, Zak
Speaker 2: Huffman and Nick Stump. Post production by ten ten, Audio
Speaker 2: talent booking by Dan Resnick. Rez Entertainment Head of Marketing
Speaker 2: and Operations Jeff Clive, Social media director Ismati Gaudarrama, Social
Speaker 2: media manager Sarah Gibbons, and art director Andrew Nelson,