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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio news. That deal may not

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Speaker 1: be feasible, and it's not feasible, then there is a

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Speaker 1: real escalation that leads to an economic war and eventually

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Speaker 1: can lead to a real war that there is square

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Speaker 1: facing with China. It's not a willingness to have a call,

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Speaker 1: but what happens next.

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Speaker 2: I'm Stephanie Flanders, head of Government and Economics at Bloomberg.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Trumponomics, the podcast that looks at the economic

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Speaker 2: world of Donald Trump, how he's already shaped the global economy,

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Speaker 2: and what on earth is going to happen next. Well,

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Speaker 2: this week we're focusing on the all out trade war

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Speaker 2: that the Trump administration has kicked off with China, a

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Speaker 2: trade war that China seems to think it can win.

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Speaker 2: Just this week, Beijing escalated its class with Washington, ordering

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Speaker 2: Chinese airlines to halt new Boeing jet deliveries and banning

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Speaker 2: the export of some rare minerals to the US. That

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Speaker 2: comes after that mad bidding our tariff rates we've seen

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Speaker 2: since the start of the month, which saw US tariffs

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Speaker 2: on some goods go to one hundred and forty five percent.

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Speaker 2: China in return taking theirs to one hundred and twenty

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Speaker 2: five percent. Now, Donald Trump and members of the administration

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Speaker 2: believe they have the upper hand in this fight. China

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Speaker 2: needs our consumers and our money, as his press secretary

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Speaker 2: put it this week. If so, someone seems to have

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Speaker 2: forgotten to tell the Chinese. At every stage of this

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Speaker 2: tit for tat between the world's two largest economies, the

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Speaker 2: Chinese have seen confident, cocky even as far as I

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Speaker 2: can see, they've also been a bit more resolute. No exemptions,

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Speaker 2: no pauses. So is this all bluff? Chinese, after all,

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Speaker 2: are all about saving face? Or has Donald Trump picked

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Speaker 2: a fight here that the US could conceivably lose. Well,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to go through some of this with Dr

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Speaker 2: Neurial Ribini. Neuriel is a senior advisor Hudson Bay Capital

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Speaker 2: Management and Professor Emeritus of Economics at NYU Stern School

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Speaker 2: of Business. He's also a former advisor to the US treasurer,

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Speaker 2: where he worked with me, among others, the IMF and

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Speaker 2: World Bank. Neuriel, thank you very much for joining us.

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Speaker 1: Great being review Stephanie today a pleasure.

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Speaker 2: Let's start with the basics. We have focused quite a

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Speaker 2: lot on the cost of the US economy of these

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Speaker 2: tariffs on China. But putting it simply, what does China

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Speaker 2: stand to lose in this fight?

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Speaker 1: Technically speaking, actually the impact on growth of this trade

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Speaker 1: war is more serious for China than it is for

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Speaker 1: the United States on impact before you consider any other

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Speaker 1: micropolicies that China and US can implement. And the reason

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Speaker 1: is that Chinese running a trade sort of relatively United

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Speaker 1: States of about two percent of its GDP, while imports

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Speaker 1: from China for the United States are about one percent

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Speaker 1: of the US GDP. So, technically speaking, suppose that this

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Speaker 1: startive remain at the current level and we are having

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Speaker 1: a pure authorkey no trade within US and China. In

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Speaker 1: the extreme, the impact on Chinese growths are going to

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Speaker 1: be a negative two percent, while the impact on the

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Speaker 1: United States in principle will be only one percent. Of course,

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Speaker 1: the shock is also inflationary for the United States and

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Speaker 1: is deflationary for China. You have to consider that. But

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Speaker 1: actually the country that is running a trade service with

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Speaker 1: the United States has a bigger shock to their growth

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Speaker 1: and demand than the United States. That's true for China,

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Speaker 1: is true for Europe, for Japan, South Korea, Taiwan and

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Speaker 1: all other major trading partners that have with the United States.

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Speaker 2: That is obviously double Trump's point that they need us

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Speaker 2: more than we need them, and the fact that Bluebery

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Speaker 2: Economics has calculated similar kind of numbers to you. Even

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Speaker 2: at the initial level LITTL where they went to you

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Speaker 2: have more than two percent of GDP at risk in China.

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Speaker 2: They pretty much wipe out most of Chinese exports to

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Speaker 2: the US. But somehow they're still fighting and they seem

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Speaker 2: to think that actually their ability to withstand this might

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Speaker 2: be a bit greater than Americas. So I just I

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Speaker 2: wonder why do they seem to be standing so firm

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Speaker 2: in this sight?

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Speaker 1: The question is what are their policy reactions now to

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Speaker 1: reduce the impact on growth. China can do massive fiscal

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Speaker 1: stimulus while the US is in a fiscal contraction. Given

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Speaker 1: the needs of the best and administration to reduce the

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Speaker 1: badger devsit, China, because it's the deflationary shock, can do

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Speaker 1: massive monetary and credit easing instead. In the US, the

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Speaker 1: FED is going to stay on hold and we're not

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Speaker 1: going to get credit easy. More importantly, China also doesn't

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Speaker 1: face elections. She is in power for as long as

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Speaker 1: he wants to be, while Trump is gonna face Mitrum

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Speaker 1: election next year, so they can be more patient. China's

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Speaker 1: had all the philosophy of eating bitterness, meaning suffering for

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Speaker 1: the sake of the country. China can also retaliate, of course,

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Speaker 1: if China poses like they have similar tariffs to the

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Speaker 1: US ones and one hundred and forty five for the

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Speaker 1: US one hundred and twenty five for China. There's no trade.

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Speaker 1: But China can do other things. China can restrict that

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Speaker 1: it started the exports of rare earth that are mostly

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Speaker 1: produced in China. China can reduce or cut off the

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Speaker 1: exports of refined metals, especially in dust selling great metals.

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Speaker 1: Seventy percent of all refinement of copper is done in China.

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Speaker 1: China can panic Apple, Tesla and other firms that invested

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Speaker 1: hundreds of billions of dollars from the US into China,

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Speaker 1: and China could also, potentially they've not done it so far,

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Speaker 1: they could use the potential nuclear weapon of essentially dumping

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Speaker 1: their treasury holdings, and they have a bit less than

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Speaker 1: a trillion of treasury holdings. That could shock, of course,

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Speaker 1: the bond market in the United States. There would be

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Speaker 1: subject to losses, but they could try to do that

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Speaker 1: as well, but then that will be the option of

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Speaker 1: last resorts. And finally, if this trade war becomes a

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Speaker 1: full scale economic war and China feels that they're being

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Speaker 1: contained and the US is trying to prevent the rise

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Speaker 1: of China economically, and even bastn't spoken about a strategy

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Speaker 1: of economic encirclement of China, meaning using friends and allies

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Speaker 1: and negotiation with them to then corner China. China may

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Speaker 1: even go after Taiwan. You know, the main reason why

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Speaker 1: China doesn't go after Taiwan right now is because they

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Speaker 1: know that there'll be massive trade sanction. Letter on the

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Speaker 1: potential of a war, but the potential of a war

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Speaker 1: is limited, while the potential of trade sanction is large.

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Speaker 1: But if US is already imposing such trade sanction that

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Speaker 1: there is not much ability of China to export, you

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Speaker 1: might as well go and take over in Taiwan. So

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Speaker 1: a trade war can escalate in a full scale economic war,

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Speaker 1: and a full scare economic war can escalate into a

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Speaker 1: real hot work as well. People don't seem to be

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Speaker 1: realizing that I.

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Speaker 2: Want to go through some of those options in a minute,

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Speaker 2: but I guess you know. There's also one point that's

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Speaker 2: worth making, which is China has already learnt from the

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Speaker 2: first Trump administration and indeed the tariffs that were maintained

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Speaker 2: and even increased under the Biden administration. They have now

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Speaker 2: had nearly a decade of recognizing that the US is

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Speaker 2: in a different place when it comes to China, and

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Speaker 2: in many ways their economy has also adapted, maybe even

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Speaker 2: a bit more than the US economy. As we were

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Speaker 2: looking at how they had managed to diversify it, it's

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Speaker 2: managed to diversify a little bit more away from the

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Speaker 2: US as the source of its export. Then the US

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Speaker 2: has managed to wean itself off China. There's that new

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Speaker 2: real it's just a stronger position now than it was

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Speaker 2: a few years ago because it's kind of seen as coming.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely they've done that. One capital make is that some

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Speaker 1: of that diversification export is now China, and not just

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Speaker 1: Chinese firms, but also American firms and others going for

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Speaker 1: a strategy of China plus one many not just producing China,

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Speaker 1: but other parts of Asia. Some of the final assembly

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Speaker 1: of many of these goods is done in Bangladesh, in Vietnam,

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Speaker 1: in Pakistan, you name it, and the US right now,

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Speaker 1: even if it reaches an agreement with Vietnam, Bangladesh, and

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Speaker 1: you name it on reducing the tariffs, they're going to

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Speaker 1: make sure that the local content criteria are strictly in forced.

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Speaker 1: So the China plus one strategy was a way for

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Speaker 1: both US and other multinacial to diversify the China is

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Speaker 1: but also for the Chinese to diversify. But now China

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Speaker 1: plus one doesn't work anymore because there'll be these types

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Speaker 1: of additional restrictions.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and actually just on that we're recording this on

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Speaker 2: Wednesday morning, But overnight there was a Wall Street Journal

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Speaker 2: story that was talking about how the Trump administration is

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Speaker 2: wanting to make as part of its famous negotiations with

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Speaker 2: over seventy countries that are looking to do deals with

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Speaker 2: the US, one of the conditions that they're thinking about

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Speaker 2: is that they take more steps to separate from China.

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Speaker 2: When it comes to a lot of those countries in

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Speaker 2: Asia that are already have a very close trading relationship

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Speaker 2: and even a dependency relationship economically with China, how realistic

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Speaker 2: is that you're going to separate some of these economies Vietnam, Malaysia,

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Speaker 2: or these places from China in any kind of meaningful way.

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Speaker 1: Well, what the US can do, and that's legitimate, is

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Speaker 1: to say, if I do a deal with you, yes Nam,

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Speaker 1: and your tariffs are not anymore, say forty six percent,

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Speaker 1: they're going to be ten, fifteen, twenty, whatever the negative

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Speaker 1: is going to agree, then most of the stuff that

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Speaker 1: you export the US has to have local content. If

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Speaker 1: you take Chinese parts and you assemble them in Vietnam

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Speaker 1: and the value added is only, say twenty percent in

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Speaker 1: Vietnam and eighty percent China, then those goods are not

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Speaker 1: going to be subject to the low tarifs. They'll be

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Speaker 1: subject to higher tariffs. Every trade dealer has this local

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Speaker 1: content criteria. So that's just something you can do and say,

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Speaker 1: this is not Vietnam is good. It's mostly Chinese good

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Speaker 1: that pretends to be vietname is the same way in

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Speaker 1: which the Chinese exported to Mexico, and try to rerupt

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Speaker 1: it this way, so that can be enforced. The second

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Speaker 1: thing can be enforced, in my view, is that the

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Speaker 1: US can tell friends and allies that you need to

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Speaker 1: risk your relationship with China on stuff that has to

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Speaker 1: do with the key strategic technology like you know, things

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Speaker 1: like AI semiconduct or high tech and so on, and

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Speaker 1: the way to do it is already been done. When

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Speaker 1: Biden was living in January, there was an executive order

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Speaker 1: that essentially says what are the criteria for AI dicusion

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Speaker 1: And it has three buckets of countries. Here one countries

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Speaker 1: are friends and allies, and they have accessed to as

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Speaker 1: many advanced Navidia ships, they can build as many data

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Speaker 1: centers with advanced ships and use all the ais l

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Speaker 1: l ms and technology of the US. There are then

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Speaker 1: Tier three countries that are Russia, China or Korea run

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Speaker 1: and real rivals, and they cannot have access to any

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Speaker 1: of those advanced ships. And there are here two countries

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Speaker 1: that are sort of enemies or friends but not trustworthy,

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Speaker 1: and say Dubai may not be able to get as

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Speaker 1: many in Navidio chips because maybe their data centers in

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Speaker 1: Dubai are not as safe as those say in Canada

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Speaker 1: or in Europe or whatever. So I think that part

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Speaker 1: of the strategy is going to be to try to

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Speaker 1: de risk the relationship with China and force people to

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Speaker 1: choose you want to be in Tier one or Tier

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Speaker 1: two or Tier three and If you decide to be

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Speaker 1: even in tier three, you're going to have less success

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Speaker 1: to US technology than you do, and then you have

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Speaker 1: to use Chinese technology. Friends and allies are going to

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Speaker 1: be in tier one, rivals are going to be in

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Speaker 1: tier three, and everybody else in the middle left to

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Speaker 1: decide to go with the Chinese AI or go with

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Speaker 1: the American AI, because the world will be essentially a

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Speaker 1: world of either US high tech or Chinese high tech,

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Speaker 1: and they're not going to be compatible with each other.

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Speaker 1: That's the world we're moving to.

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Speaker 2: I guess one question is whether China has already progressed

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Speaker 2: so far in some of these technologies that it's whether

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Speaker 2: it's practical to do that. But that's certainly what you've

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Speaker 2: described makes a lot of sense, and I would say

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Speaker 2: is also more consistent with the verse version of Donald

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Speaker 2: Trump's China policy that the Biden administration pursued. As long

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Speaker 2: as you can, as long as you can persuade all

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Speaker 2: these friends, that so called friends and allies that they

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Speaker 2: are indeed still your friends and allies, after you threatened

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Speaker 2: all this nasty stuff.

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Speaker 1: Well, you know, let's put this way, even after the nasty,

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Speaker 1: nasti stuff, NATO members, and Europeans and Canadians and Japan,

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Speaker 1: South Korea, Taiwan, they have no choice, no choice to

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Speaker 1: rely on the US because if they spend more on

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Speaker 1: the fence, then the security umbrella is going to remain.

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Speaker 1: And if the security Rombella remains and there is a

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Speaker 1: trade deal on reducing the current tariffs to say half

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Speaker 1: as much, say only ten percent for Europe rather than twenty,

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Speaker 1: or only ten twelve for Japan rather twenty four, these

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Speaker 1: countries have no choice but to stay in the sphere

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Speaker 1: of influence of the United States in terms of security. So,

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Speaker 1: in spite of the tension with Friends and Allies, my

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Speaker 1: baseline is one in which you reach a deal on security,

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Speaker 1: you spend more on defense all over the world Friends

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Speaker 1: and Allies, you buy more US weapons and US tech goods,

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Speaker 1: You buy more energy and energy from the United States,

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Speaker 1: more of there are goods, and you do other things. Therefore,

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Speaker 1: even technologically, Friends and Allies is going to be under

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Speaker 1: the technological order of the US, because in technology US

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Speaker 1: is number one, China is a closed second, but everybody

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Speaker 1: else is not number three or four. Europe is only

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Speaker 1: number ten. So they have no choice. They left to

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Speaker 1: accept to maintain and remain under the US security, trade, military, geopolitical,

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Speaker 1: and technological influence. I think that's going to be the outcome,

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Speaker 1: whether you like it or not. The idea the day

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Speaker 1: Europeans going to now embed themselves with China, I think

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Speaker 1: is totally ridiculous. It's totally far fetched. It's not gonna happen.

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Speaker 2: You're obviously right that the US does have still a

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Speaker 2: lot of means of persuasion, and it sort of reminds

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Speaker 2: me one of my colleagues, Josh Green, was saying, you know,

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Speaker 2: it's like it's the sort of Mara Lago version of

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Speaker 2: global trade, not Maura Largo, the currency core that we've

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Speaker 2: talked about on this show, but the cost of joining

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Speaker 2: the Mari Largo golf club was jacked up the moment

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Speaker 2: that Donald Trump even became the Republican nominee, that alone

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Speaker 2: winning the presidency, and there's a sort of pay to

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Speaker 2: play element to this. He has the same approach people

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Speaker 2: should have to pay to play in the US market.

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Speaker 2: So clearly the US has a lot cards, as Donald

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Speaker 2: Trump would say. But you identified at the beginning that

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Speaker 2: although the short term economic cost to China of this

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Speaker 2: war is obviously greater. They also have a greater macroeconomic

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Speaker 2: room to offset that. So if they have a hit

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Speaker 2: of two percent GDP, they can stimulate the economy in

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Speaker 2: other ways. They have room to do that. They don't

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Speaker 2: have an inflation problem as the US, so they also

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Speaker 2: have a capacity to sustain a bit of pain in

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Speaker 2: a way that potentially the US doesn't have. I just

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Speaker 2: want to test if it's willing to do things that

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Speaker 2: are not necessarily in its interest but it thinks will

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Speaker 2: be more likely to push the US to change course.

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Speaker 2: You know, does that include things like selling those holdings

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Speaker 2: of US bonds? How far can it go on? Things

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Speaker 2: like that, which people have often thought of, was the

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Speaker 2: kind of equivalent of the sort of going nuclear. They're

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Speaker 2: sitting on these enormous stocks of treasuries. Is it feasible

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Speaker 2: that they could sell a lot of those without just

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Speaker 2: inflicting too much pain on themselves.

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Speaker 1: It's an option, but in my view, is an option

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Speaker 1: of last resort after they've used all the other things

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Speaker 1: we discussed, because there is a meaningful economic cost to them.

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Speaker 1: The economic costs are the following. If you sell treasuries,

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Speaker 1: depending on their duration, you have a market to market

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Speaker 1: loss because bond years will be higher, and then you're

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Speaker 1: having a loss on the existing stock of your treasury.

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Speaker 1: Number one. Number two, If you sell treasuries and you

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Speaker 1: convert those dollars into R and B, the R and

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Speaker 1: B appreciates, and what you're trying to do in China

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Speaker 1: is actually having a depreciation of the R and B

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Speaker 1: as the way of compensating for the trade shop. So

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Speaker 1: you're hurting yourself if you're selling treasury and you don't

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Speaker 1: buy RMB, you have to buy other currencies. If you

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Speaker 1: buy yen, euro s with frengths and you name it,

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Speaker 1: you are forcing an appreciation of yen and euro relative

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Speaker 1: to US dollar, and you're going to create trade fiction,

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Speaker 1: if not a trade war with Japan, with Taiwan, South Korea,

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Speaker 1: with Europe or whoever. And at the time where you

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Speaker 1: actually are trying to divide these countries from you because

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Speaker 1: you're forcing an appreciation of this currency and you're transferring

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Speaker 1: them the trade tariff risk to them. If instead, the

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Speaker 1: last thing you can do, probably if you cannot essentially

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Speaker 1: sell treasury and buy RMB because it appreciates your currency,

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Speaker 1: or damage your relations with their trading partners like Europe

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Speaker 1: in Asia, you can sell the treasure is then buy gold,

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Speaker 1: and that's what China and other strategic rivals of the

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Speaker 1: US have been doing, and that's why gold has gone higher,

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Speaker 1: because if you think about it, the only global reserve act,

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Speaker 1: of course, is the asset. Liquid asset is not a

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Speaker 1: currency that cannot be seized by the US, is a

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Speaker 1: liquid bullion because we saw in the case of Russia Ukraine,

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Speaker 1: not just dollars but euro yenes, it's frank pounds were seized,

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Speaker 1: and therefore the only one that they cannot seize is

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Speaker 1: gold bullion. But gold bullion that you keep in the

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Speaker 1: basement of the PBOC if you're buying GLD, that is

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Speaker 1: the financial version of gold. Of course, that can even

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Speaker 1: be seized or controlled or whatever. So that's I think

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Speaker 1: what's the most likely scenario. If they decide to sell treasury,

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Speaker 1: they still get the loss marked to market on the

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Speaker 1: value of those bonds, but maybe the best thing to

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Speaker 1: do will be gold rather than R and B or

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Speaker 1: rather the other current. I think that's a possibility. They

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Speaker 1: already been doing it for a while because if things

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Speaker 1: escalated in the US and China, one of the things

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Speaker 1: the US can do, of course, is to seize their

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Speaker 1: holdings of treasury the same way the holdings of treasuries

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Speaker 1: of Russia over sees the same way. Similar transaction restriction

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Speaker 1: occur for North Korea, run and you name it. So

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Speaker 1: that's a mutual thread. The Chinese can use that nuclear

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Speaker 1: weapon or nuclear threats, but the US can use the

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Speaker 1: counter nuclear threat of seizing those assets. The game of

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Speaker 1: chicken between the two sides.

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Speaker 2: On one side doesn't have an election coming up, in fact,

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Speaker 2: will be around for the foreseeable future.

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Speaker 1: That's true on the other side. As I said, a

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Speaker 1: huge amount of the manufacturing of China two percent of GDP,

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Speaker 1: but the larger fraction of the manufacturering is thirty percent

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Speaker 1: of GDP, is expert to the US. Suppose this factory

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Speaker 1: all have to shut down because you're not going to

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Speaker 1: be able to reroute those experts to other countries because

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Speaker 1: other countries will have the same problem access supply. That

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Speaker 1: access supply implies that part of their industrial base manufacturing

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Speaker 1: is obsolete, is essentially stranded asset, and that's a huge

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Speaker 1: cost in terms of capital losses, but the bigger loss

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Speaker 1: in terms of jobs, massive job losses. Unless against China

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Speaker 1: does staff to increase domestic consumption and consumption of services,

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Speaker 1: and those factory workers may become eventually over time service workers.

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Speaker 1: You can do it over a medium term of a

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Speaker 1: few years, you cannot do it in twelve months. So

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Speaker 1: both sides have capability and threats, and both sides have

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Speaker 1: significant upside costs and risk. It got both ways. But

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Speaker 1: you're right that's in Pin doesn't face election. But you know,

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Speaker 1: as we saw during COVID, when people become restless, they

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Speaker 1: can go in the streets, even in China, and millions

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Speaker 1: of unemployed the factory workers could be a threat, even

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Speaker 1: in the case of China. So it's not as if

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Speaker 1: political pressures are zero in China and are simile in

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Speaker 1: the United States. It's a bit more complicated than that.

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Speaker 2: Final question, Neil. I think some have been surprised in

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Speaker 2: the last few weeks at China's apparent willingness to dig

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Speaker 2: in and not blink as perhaps they have in some

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Speaker 2: past rounds. Even earlier this year, they were responding in

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Speaker 2: a quite measured way to the initial tariffs that Donald

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Speaker 2: Trump would put on. Do you think that this will change,

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Speaker 2: that they will ultimately come to the table as Donald

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Speaker 2: Trump's people would say, or is there something a bit

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Speaker 2: different now? Have the state's been just raised too high

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Speaker 2: in terms of their face apart from anything else.

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Speaker 1: Well, you know, there's a game of chicken between Trump

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Speaker 1: and Shape, and there is a third person in this

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Speaker 1: game of chicken, is how well as well? As I said,

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Speaker 1: and I've said for a while, that they strike a

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Speaker 1: price for a Trump put is a price much higher

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Speaker 1: for the power put and is also much higher than

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Speaker 1: for the fishing pin put. Meaning Trump is going to

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Speaker 1: blink before the Fed and Trump is going to blink

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Speaker 1: before Jipin. Guess what Trump has been blinking by starting

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Speaker 1: negotiations with friends, allies and enemies seventy countries. The exception

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Speaker 1: is China power is not blinked so far, and it's

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Speaker 1: unlikely to blink. And this game of chicken between Trump

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Speaker 1: and she Himpin is continuing. But in the short run

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Speaker 1: the Chinese can be more patient. Trump is saying, is

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Speaker 1: waiting for a call from Jimpin. Su Jianpin is saying,

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Speaker 1: you started this tread war. Maybe you should make a call.

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Speaker 1: The point is not whether you make a call. The

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Speaker 1: backside channels through which people can organize a phone call

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Speaker 1: within SI and Trump. That may happen, but even that's

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Speaker 1: not the issue. There can be a phone call, you

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Speaker 1: can have the beginning of negotiation to the escalate. But

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Speaker 1: the problem is that the sets of policies that may

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Speaker 1: be acceptable to Trump might be empty or a null

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Speaker 1: set compared to the sets of policy that are acceptable

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Speaker 1: to shish in Pin. Because like last summer around, it's

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Speaker 1: not just about tariffs. It's also about non tariff restrictions,

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Speaker 1: about restriction to SDI, is about joint ventures, it is

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Speaker 1: about intellectual property rights, It's about government properement. Is about

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Speaker 1: the fact that China subsidized experts, low wages, the cost

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Speaker 1: of capital, the cost of energy, the cost of water,

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Speaker 1: the cost of land, pretty much subsidize everything for the

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Speaker 1: last decades. Telling China give up on state capitalism and

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Speaker 1: become a true market economy without any of these policies,

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Speaker 1: it is something that is not acceptable. The problem is

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Speaker 1: that the kind of deal that US wants is to

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Speaker 1: win essentially fully the economic world with China, and Chinese

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Speaker 1: has got consider that one as a strategy of full

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Speaker 1: economic containment of the rise of China. So even if

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Speaker 1: they sit down, I fear that instead of a grand

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Speaker 1: bargain in which you the risk on technology, but you

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Speaker 1: don't decouple and everything else. That deal may not be feasible,

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Speaker 1: and if not feasible, then there is a real escalation

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Speaker 1: that leads to an economic war and eventually can lead

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Speaker 1: to a real war. That's there is square facing with China.

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Speaker 1: It's not a willingness to have a call, but what

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Speaker 1: happens next.

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Speaker 2: Jenny welsh, our chief geoeconomics analyst who was the Taiwan

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Speaker 2: advisor in President Biden's National Security Council, wrote a piece

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Speaker 2: with the headline last week, I dealt with China. Here's

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Speaker 2: why they'll fight. After years of sitting across the table

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Speaker 2: from Beijing and official negotiations, I've learned this. They guard

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Speaker 2: their pride, drive a hard bargain, and play the long game.

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Speaker 2: I guess we're going to find out whether Donald Trump

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Speaker 2: can do those things. No, Rabini, thank you so much.

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Speaker 1: That was great, great being with you, Stephanie.

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Speaker 2: That thanks a lot. Thanks for listening to Trump Noomics

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Speaker 2: from Bloomberg. It was hosted by me, Stephanie Flanders, and

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Speaker 2: I was joined by Nurial Rubini. Trumpelomics is produced by

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Speaker 2: Samasadi and Moses and with help from Chris Martin and

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00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:14,439
Speaker 2: Amy Keene. Special thanks to Flora Pine and sound design

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00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:18,240
Speaker 2: has been done by Blake Maples. Brendan Francis Newnham is

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Speaker 2: our executive producer and please to help others find the show,

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Speaker 2: please rate and review it wherever you listen to your

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Speaker 2: podcast