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Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law with June Brossel from Bloomberg Radio.

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Speaker 2: And I'm ashamed of certain members of the court, absolutely ashamed.

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Speaker 3: In an unprecedented turn for US, President Donald Trump has

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Speaker 3: criticized Supreme Court justices who ruled against him, at times

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Speaker 3: even ridiculing them.

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Speaker 2: They're just being fools and lapdogs for the Rhinos and

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Speaker 2: the radical left Democrats, and not that they should have

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Speaker 2: anything at all to do with it. They're very unpatriotic

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Speaker 2: and disloyal to our constitution.

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Speaker 3: And the Acting Attorney General, Todd Blanche has said the

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Speaker 3: Justice Department is at war with federal judges.

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Speaker 4: These activist judges, that they have a RoboN, but they

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Speaker 4: are more political or certainly as political as the most

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Speaker 4: liberal governor of da.

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Speaker 3: And now the Department of Homeland Security has taken the

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Speaker 3: administration's attacks on federal judges to a new level. Its

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Speaker 3: top lawyer has posted a list of the quote worst

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Speaker 3: of the worst district court judges. DHS General Counsel James

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Speaker 3: Percival listed four judges who ruled against the administration's immigration

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Speaker 3: agenda in a post on x It mirrors the way

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Speaker 3: the Department lists the names of dangerous immigrants as the

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Speaker 3: worst of the worst, this as threats against federal judges

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Speaker 3: have more than tripled over the past decade. Joining me

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Speaker 3: as Judge Esther Sallas of the US District Court for

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Speaker 3: the District of New Jersey. Judge Sallas, what was your

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Speaker 3: reaction when you saw this post by DHS's top lawyer.

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Speaker 1: My reaction was a bit of shock, because I wouldn't

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Speaker 1: have imagined that a representative like General Counsel of DHS

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Speaker 1: would be launching something like this that I think is

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Speaker 1: an attack personally on the judges, and not on the merits,

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Speaker 1: but on the judge. And I think some of the

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Speaker 1: procedural information even provided in those X posts are inaccurate,

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Speaker 1: and so I worry for those judges, and I worry

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Speaker 1: what is to come from every judge that finds him

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Speaker 1: or herself on this weekly you know, unveiling if you will,

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Speaker 1: of the new worst of the worst district judge. I

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Speaker 1: just don't understand what's the end game? What is the

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Speaker 1: endgame with this type of rhetoric coming out of DHS.

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Speaker 1: I don't understand it.

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Speaker 3: These judges. The four judges that were listed were listed

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Speaker 3: because they ruled against the administration's immigration agenda.

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Speaker 1: You know, I think that it's pretty clear that they're

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Speaker 1: taking issue with the judge's rulings and instead of appealing

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Speaker 1: the judges, they're launching this these personal attacks. I mean,

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Speaker 1: the point of indicating the president who nominated them, what's

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Speaker 1: the point of that, and then going on to in

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Speaker 1: some instances mischaracterize what the judge did and why the

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Speaker 1: judge did it, and certainly not attaching links to the judges'

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Speaker 1: opinions or the stockets so that his followers can maybe

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Speaker 1: judge for themselves. This is I think an intentional agenda

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Speaker 1: of attacking judges, and it's this negative pr campaign that

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Speaker 1: I think we've got sadly more instances of DHS doing this.

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Speaker 1: This isn't the first time that we see these types

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Speaker 1: of tactics used to it unfairly attack judges. We saw

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Speaker 1: DHS do this to Judge mac and indicating on a

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Speaker 1: government website that that judge posed a national security threat

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Speaker 1: and the judge got threatened after that reckless post on

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Speaker 1: again a government website. We see it with Judge Debos

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Speaker 1: in Rhode Island, and that was a judge that there

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Speaker 1: was an intentional act to keep key information from the judge.

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Speaker 1: In that instance, the judge was not told about a

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Speaker 1: murder investigation that was ongoing in another country, and when

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Speaker 1: the judge released the petitioner, they then posted how this

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Speaker 1: judge was a Biden activist judge who let you know,

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Speaker 1: a potential murderer go and that this has played out

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Speaker 1: in Rhode Island. This is fact what they've done. And

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Speaker 1: the sad fact is this information about Judge Debo's is

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Speaker 1: still up on the website even though they now know that.

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Speaker 1: You know, they've had to apologize for what they did

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Speaker 1: with Judge Debos and we see now the sad case.

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Speaker 1: And you know, God rest his soul of a judge

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Speaker 1: in the Middle District of Florida, Judge John Steele, who

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Speaker 1: you know, I think made a ruling based on the law.

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Speaker 1: There was an opportunity for DHS to appeal the judge's ruling,

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Speaker 1: they didn't and instead they labeled him an activist judge

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Speaker 1: put his name out there. My understanding, at least based

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Speaker 1: on the information I'm looking, is that threats began to

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Speaker 1: come in as a result of this. And you know,

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Speaker 1: we don't know much, so I want to be careful,

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Speaker 1: but you know, the judge is no longer with us.

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Speaker 1: These are intentional acts that I think are reckless and

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Speaker 1: I think put judges lives in danger, and I just

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Speaker 1: don't understand. Again, what is the endgame with this Worst

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Speaker 1: of the Worst series? What are we looking to do?

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Speaker 1: Are we looking to intimidate judges who don't want to

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Speaker 1: be on the worst of the Worst list because they're

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Speaker 1: gonna be now targets for threats? So are we working

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Speaker 1: on intimidating judges? Are we threatening judges by putting this

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Speaker 1: information out there and looking for people to then take

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Speaker 1: matters into their own hands. What is the endgame when

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Speaker 1: we do this type of series? In quotes?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, A DHS spokesperson said that the social media

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Speaker 3: thread is nothing more than a factual review of judicial

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Speaker 3: decisions and their real world consequences. If accurately describing a

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Speaker 3: judge's rulings as controversial, the issue isn't the reporting, it's

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Speaker 3: the rulings themselves. The record speaks for itself. Facts aren't attacks,

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Speaker 3: So they're not backing down.

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Speaker 1: Well, then I encourage your audience to actually fact check

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Speaker 1: these ex posts because I can say procedurally they've been

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Speaker 1: fact checked. On my end, I'm not going to talk

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Speaker 1: about the merits. They're open cases, so I can't do

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Speaker 1: that as a sitting judge, but I can tell you

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Speaker 1: procedurally there are inaccuracies, and we can just look to

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Speaker 1: actual cases now, like what they're they're posting about Judge Dubo's,

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Speaker 1: and there is exactly evidence now that you know, she

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Speaker 1: wasn't provided the necessary information. In fact, it was intentionally

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Speaker 1: kept from her. That's still up there and that's not

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Speaker 1: fact anymore, and why it remains up is beyond me.

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Speaker 1: But you know what they continue to do is I think,

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Speaker 1: directly attacking judges personally. These are not merit based arguments.

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Speaker 1: These are you know, these are very personal attacks on

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Speaker 1: these judges. And you know the fact that you can

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Speaker 1: do it is one thing. But should our leadership be

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Speaker 1: doing this, that's the other question. I am.

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Speaker 3: Well, it seems to be coming from the top if

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Speaker 3: you put it in the context of the administration attacking

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Speaker 3: the judiciary. President Trump has repeatedly called out activist judges,

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Speaker 3: and he tore into the Supreme Court justices who ruled

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Speaker 3: against his tariffs, calling them fools and lapdogs. You have

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Speaker 3: the acting Attorney General talking about being at war with

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Speaker 3: the federal judiciary. Is it sort of an attack on

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Speaker 3: the rule of law?

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Speaker 1: You know, I've been very open and honest about my

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Speaker 1: feelings with respect to the President's comments on down and

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Speaker 1: I speak to you today as Daniel's mom. You know,

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Speaker 1: this is an incredibly hard month for Mark, my husband,

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Speaker 1: and I and we are minded of what's at stake

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Speaker 1: here When our political leaders are recklessly and irresponsibly using

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Speaker 1: rhetoric to attack judges, what can happen in our case.

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Speaker 1: We know that a lawyer who was unhappy with the

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Speaker 1: way I was handling his case what he did six

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Speaker 1: years ago in ringing my doorbell on a Sunday afternoon

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Speaker 1: at five o'clock in the afternoon and taking the life

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Speaker 1: of my only child one shot to the chest. He

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Speaker 1: almost took my husband's life as well that day. There

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Speaker 1: are a lot of vulnerable people out there, mentally vulnerable

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Speaker 1: people that see what our leadership is doing in really

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Speaker 1: demonizing judges and vilifying us. And that is what they're

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Speaker 1: doing with using terms like monsters, hating America, legal insurrectionists, rowe,

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Speaker 1: corrupt judges with agendas, activist judges. These words few old

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Speaker 1: people that perhaps are otherwise unable to really control themselves,

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Speaker 1: and I just think it's irresponsible and inconsistent with the

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Speaker 1: President's own counsel. After the White House Correspondence dinner and

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Speaker 1: the issue that happened there, I think the White House

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Speaker 1: spokesperson is along with the President, talked about toning down

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Speaker 1: the rhetoric, talking about toning down you know, the rhetoric

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Speaker 1: and you know, watching for our vitriol. And yet we

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Speaker 1: see the Department DHS doing exactly the opposite of what

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Speaker 1: has been at least encouraged by the President and his

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Speaker 1: own spokesperson.

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Speaker 3: Please stay with me. Judge Sallis coming up next on

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Speaker 3: the Bloomberg Lawn Show. I'll continue this conversation with federal

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Speaker 3: Judge Esther Sallis. President Trump doesn't appear to be toning

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Speaker 3: down the rhetoric against judges. I'm June Grosso and you're

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Speaker 3: listening to Bloomberg. The US Marshal Service has reported a

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Speaker 3: rise in threats against federal judges to more than five

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Speaker 3: hundred sixty last year, but the administration doesn't appear to

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Speaker 3: be toning down its rhetoric against judges. On Wednesday, President

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Speaker 3: Trump went into another tirade against the Supreme Court on

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Speaker 3: truth social complaining without any evidence that the decisions on

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Speaker 3: tariffs and birthright citizenship had cost the nation trillions and

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Speaker 3: trillions of dollars. He also reposted a tweet critical of

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Speaker 3: Justice Amy Cony Barrett. Acting Attorney General Todd Blanche has

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Speaker 3: said the Justice Department is at war with judges, and

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Speaker 3: the top lawyer at the Department of Homeland Security, James Percival,

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Speaker 3: has put out a list targeting federal judges by name

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Speaker 3: in what he calls the Worst of the Worst District

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Speaker 3: Judge Edition. I've been talking to federal Judge Esther Sallas

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Speaker 3: of the District Court of New Jersey. She lost her

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Speaker 3: only child, Daniel, six years ago when a disgruntled lawyer

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Speaker 3: posing as a delivery driver killed him when he opened

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Speaker 3: the door to their home. After that tragedy, Judge Sallas

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Speaker 3: advocated successfully for legislation to enhance security for judges nationwide.

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Speaker 3: You're under when justice is. Elena Kagan and Amy Cony

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Speaker 3: Barrett testified before Congress asking for additional funds for more

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Speaker 3: security because of increased threats the justices are getting justice.

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Speaker 3: Kagan explained how politicians calling out judges by name crosses

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Speaker 3: a line and is dangerous, and she said it's designed

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Speaker 3: to intimidate judges. Do you think that's what this worst

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Speaker 3: of the worst list is designed to do.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to say that Chief Justice Roberts warned all

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Speaker 1: of us in twenty twenty four about the four illegitimate attacks,

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Speaker 1: and I think that Chief Justice did a great job

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Speaker 1: in reminding all of us in that report about the

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Speaker 1: dangers of these tactics. We talk about violence, we talk

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Speaker 1: about intimidation, we talk about the spreading of disinformation, which

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Speaker 1: I believe much of what are on these X posts

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Speaker 1: contain misinformation and disinformation that is being turned out to

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Speaker 1: the public, the American public. And I also believe that

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Speaker 1: all of this plays into the eroding of the public's

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Speaker 1: confidence in the justice system. And I think this is intentional.

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Speaker 1: I think there is a negative pr campaign that is

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Speaker 1: being rolled out on social media, being rolled out on

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Speaker 1: national news, being rolled out in these statements that come

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Speaker 1: from the top down that the justice system is broken,

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Speaker 1: that the judges are rogue, that the judges are activists,

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Speaker 1: that the judges are working against particular agendas, and all

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Speaker 1: of this is aimed at eroding the public's confidence and

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Speaker 1: the justices. And you know, as Daniel's mom, I can't

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Speaker 1: say that this is just you know, this is just

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Speaker 1: a collection of perhaps ill advise acts. This is a

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Speaker 1: campaign that is been rolled out and in a way

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Speaker 1: that I have never seen, and I don't think I've

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Speaker 1: ever seen it in the way that we're seeing it now,

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Speaker 1: with threats of impeachment, articles of impeachment being rolled out

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Speaker 1: against judges for rulings they're making. Instead of appealing the judges,

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Speaker 1: we're threatening judges with articles of impeachment. We're posting these

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Speaker 1: statements that judges are threats to national security, that judges

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Speaker 1: are activists, that judges are rogue, that judges are doing

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Speaker 1: the unthinkable, that judges are disobeying Scotus and disobeying the

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Speaker 1: Seventh Circuit. These are all statements that I think, I best,

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Speaker 1: are taken out of context. At worst, are misrepresenting the

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Speaker 1: rule that judges are making. And I am concerned that

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Speaker 1: we're doing damage. And I don't know what the rippling

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Speaker 1: effects of the damage that's being done on our democracy

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Speaker 1: and on judges in general, and on our rule of law.

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Speaker 1: It's just it's unheard of. And let me just add

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Speaker 1: one other thing, as Daniel's mom. This is me, Daniel's

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Speaker 1: mom talking. You know, when you call us monsters, when

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Speaker 1: you say and accuse us of hating America, when you

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Speaker 1: say that we're legal insurrectionists, when you say that we're rogue,

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Speaker 1: when you're say that we're corrupt, when you say that

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Speaker 1: you have a war on judges, you are villainizing us.

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Speaker 1: You are demonizing judges. And I think, and I hate

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Speaker 1: to think this, but as Daniel's mom, someone that's living

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Speaker 1: every day without her only child on this earth, that

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Speaker 1: if something were to happen to one of us, you

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Speaker 1: have in lots of ways insinuated that we had it coming.

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Speaker 1: And that's the irresponse behavior that is for me saddening

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Speaker 1: as someone that has to live every day without her

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Speaker 1: only child. Daniel's birthday would have been July thirteenth. He

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Speaker 1: would have been twenty six years old, and instead I

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Speaker 1: talked to him at night when I pray to him,

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Speaker 1: and I don't have my son today because a person

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Speaker 1: who felt like they had to take matters into their

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Speaker 1: own hands did. And I think that our political leaders,

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Speaker 1: who speak so recklessly and these posts that are I

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Speaker 1: think unprecedented, I think they ought to think about what

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Speaker 1: is the endgame with this tactic that they seem to

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Speaker 1: be rolling out very aggressively.

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Speaker 3: Do you know if the four judges named in this

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Speaker 3: list have been getting threats since it was posted.

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Speaker 1: I don't know whether there have been increased threats now

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Speaker 1: to these judges as a result of these postings, but

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Speaker 1: you know, we definitely have been able to track the

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Speaker 1: spike in threats to judges. I mean, I gave you

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Speaker 1: an instance with Judge McElroy and what DHS posted that

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Speaker 1: led to threats for that particular judge. I can tell

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Speaker 1: you that I know for certain that what they did

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Speaker 1: with Judge Debos in Rhode Island and what they've posted

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Speaker 1: and what remains on their website as to inaccurate information

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Speaker 1: with respect to her honor that led to threats against

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Speaker 1: the judge. Yes, we are seeing there is a corresponding

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Speaker 1: spike when we see, you know, these types of attacks

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Speaker 1: against judges for rulings they've made. We see that I

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Speaker 1: don't know the extent, and I think that we all

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Speaker 1: need to take a moment to think about what happened

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Speaker 1: with Judge Steele, John Steele in the Middle District of Florida.

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Speaker 1: But we know that as a result of ruling, he

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Speaker 1: instead of appealing his honor, they went ahead and basically

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Speaker 1: issued a press release on an activist judge. And based

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Speaker 1: on the reporting I'm hearing, his honor did receive a

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Speaker 1: spike in threats coming into chambers. He's no longer with us,

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Speaker 1: and God rest his soul. We lost him on I

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Speaker 1: believe July fifteenth. But this is stressful, and I think

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Speaker 1: what we have to remember is that judges are human too,

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Speaker 1: and when you call our chambers and threatened to kill us,

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Speaker 1: and when charges are brought, as one judge told me

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Speaker 1: recently that this judge had to go to court and

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Speaker 1: testify against the person who had threatened to kill this judge,

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Speaker 1: and you have to sit in a courtroom and talk

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Speaker 1: about the threats. When you have to come into chambers

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Speaker 1: and hear horrific messages wishing you dead and wishing that

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Speaker 1: you see your children killed in front of you, which

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Speaker 1: you know I've had to hear from a colleague of

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Speaker 1: mine who played me this tape that she received. And

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Speaker 1: when you have articles of impeachment being brought against you,

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Speaker 1: this is stressful for anyone to have to deal with.

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Speaker 1: In addition to having a challenging, you know, docket and

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Speaker 1: everything else. So I think that we have to be

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Speaker 1: mindful of what we're doing. How you know, the fabric

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Speaker 1: of this country is like outstretched right now in terms

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Speaker 1: of the attacks on the judiciary and on each other.

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Speaker 1: I mean, is it is horrific. We are so divided

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Speaker 1: and we are just so full of anger. What are

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Speaker 1: the repercussions and what are the consequences to this continued

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Speaker 1: rollout of attacks against the judiciary. I don't know how

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Speaker 1: other people feel, but as Daniel's mom on July twenty ninth,

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Speaker 1: that I'm sitting for this interview with you, I'm saying

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Speaker 1: to myself, you know, is this what we want for

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Speaker 1: our country? Is this what we want for each other?

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Speaker 1: Are these the standards that we want to live by

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Speaker 1: in this country? And I bet you they're not. But

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Speaker 1: we have to get back to holding ourselves to particular

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Speaker 1: standards and holding our political leaders to those same standards.

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Speaker 1: And we've got to get to a better place. And

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Speaker 1: these postings, even as I said earlier, can they do

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Speaker 1: them or should they be doing that?

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Speaker 3: So the question is the judiciary taking any action against

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Speaker 3: Percival for posting this list? Perhaps filing a grievance with

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Speaker 3: the Bar Association for unethical conduct.

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Speaker 1: I'm not tribute to anything. I'm speaking to you today,

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Speaker 1: just as Daniel's mom, just urging our leadership to act

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Speaker 1: more responsibly. I mean, take whatever issues you want to

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Speaker 1: take with respect to the merits of a case. Take

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Speaker 1: us up on appeal, you know, criticize the merits. If

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Speaker 1: we look at these postings, they go far less to

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Speaker 1: merits and their personal attacks. And I, just as someone

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Speaker 1: who's sort of mourning her son, I'm doing my best

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Speaker 1: to warn the American public and our leadership that there

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Speaker 1: are real consequences at the back end of all of this.

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Speaker 1: And I, as Daniel's mom, just hope that we can

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Speaker 1: all learn to know disagree in an agreeable way. I

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Speaker 1: hope we can get back to, you know, listening to

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Speaker 1: one another and not making someone an enemy because they

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Speaker 1: don't see the things the way you see them. We

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Speaker 1: have a wonderful system of justice. It's not broken, and

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Speaker 1: I think that in America we need to we need

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Speaker 1: to come together as opposed to try to tear each

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Speaker 1: other apart. And this is just an example for me,

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Speaker 1: us acting in a way that hurts us all it

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Speaker 1: just hurts us all. So I would love for us

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Speaker 1: to agree to disagree on things and when necessary, appeal us.

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Speaker 1: But you heard the justices testimony about what they've been through.

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Speaker 1: Justice Cony Barrett received a pizza in my murdered son's name.

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Speaker 1: I learned about that for the first time in watching

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Speaker 1: her testimony. That hit me hard. We heard about swatting.

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Speaker 1: This is happening to judges and justices appointed by ours

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Speaker 1: and d's. This is a problem that we all can

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Speaker 1: agree is not discriminating. But until we agree that we

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Speaker 1: are going to approach things differently and have respect for

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Speaker 1: one another, I'm afraid we just give license to this

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Speaker 1: conduct and it's never going to get any better unless

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Speaker 1: we all start to do better with the way we

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Speaker 1: treat each other. I want to just say Chief Justice

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Speaker 1: Roberts was right. Tension between the branches is as old

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Speaker 1: as the republic. But what we're seeing now, in these

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Speaker 1: four illegitimate attacks that he warned us about, this is

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Speaker 1: far from tension. This is in some ways it is

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Speaker 1: and it feels like war. And we've got an acting

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Speaker 1: Attorney General that declared war on the judges, and I

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Speaker 1: just don't think this is healthy for our nation.

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Speaker 3: Thank you so much, Judge Sallas, and my condolence is

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Speaker 3: over the loss of your son. I know this is

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Speaker 3: a difficult time for you.

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Speaker 1: I appreciate that, and I hope you know that Daniel's

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Speaker 1: very much a guiding light in my life and my

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Speaker 1: husband's life, and I hope that he can be a

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Speaker 1: guiding light for us to come back to a centered place,

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Speaker 1: a place of love and light as opposed to just

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Speaker 1: hate and darkness, and right now we need a lot

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Speaker 1: more love and light in this world.

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Speaker 3: Thank you so much. I really appreciate your talking to Meude.

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Speaker 3: That's New Jersey Federal Judge Esther Sallis, and that's it

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Speaker 3: for this edition of The Bloomberg Law Show. Remember you

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Speaker 3: can always get the latest legal news on our Bloomberg

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Speaker 3: Law Podcast. You can find them on Apple Podcasts, Spotify,

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Speaker 3: and at www dot Bloomberg dot com, slash podcast Slash Law,

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Speaker 3: And remember to tune into The Bloomberg Law Show every

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Speaker 3: weeknight at ten pm Wall Street Time. I'm June Grosso,

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Speaker 3: and you're listening to Bloomberg