Speaker 1: It, it could happen. Here the podcast where things happen and
Speaker 1: sometimes things maybe don't happen, And once again the thing
Speaker 1: maybe not happening is the strike at UPS. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: stuff has happened since we lash recorded. And also there
Speaker 1: was the thing that happened in the middle of the recording,
Speaker 1: which was the announcement of the tentative agreement. And so
Speaker 1: to talk more about what's been happening since and what's
Speaker 1: sort of in this deal because we now know more
Speaker 1: details about it is once again Rehee Smith and Oliver Rose,
Speaker 1: who are to rank and file UPS teamsters, and once
Speaker 1: again they do not represent the union, are speaking as individuals,
Speaker 1: et cetera, et cetera. Yeah, but welcome back.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm good to be back.
Speaker 3: Yeah, thanks for having us on again.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm glad. I'm happy to talk to you. So
Speaker 1: all right, so last time we found out in the
Speaker 1: middle of recording that there is a deal struck, and
Speaker 1: I guess I wanted to start by talking a bit
Speaker 1: about what's been happening since then and what the sort
Speaker 1: of what sort of organizing has been happening, what the
Speaker 1: sort of union bureaucracy has been doing.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a Well, it's been kind of kind of crazy. Basically,
Speaker 4: you know, we had that highlight reel that we all got,
Speaker 4: and then it was a bit before we got the
Speaker 4: actual contract, at least like a few days. And since then,
Speaker 4: you know, you're in union bureaucracy has been promoting these
Speaker 4: contract Q and A sessions and stuff like that, and
Speaker 4: they had three of them last Sunday and one of
Speaker 4: them this Monday, and voting has opened up. Uh yeah,
Speaker 4: it's it's been a bit, been a bit uh crazy feeling,
Speaker 4: to be honest. Uh, yeah, yeah, it's been wild.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Of course, you know, while we're recording, you know,
Speaker 3: we get the tenet of an agreement DRAP and you
Speaker 3: know it's framed as you know, this big historic uh
Speaker 3: you know, this game changer. So and you know, of course,
Speaker 3: for the first day, we just had what was in
Speaker 3: the press release. Even some of that language was a
Speaker 3: little bit confusing. Wasn't until Team Series, where a democratic
Speaker 3: union also had their own like press release clarified some language.
Speaker 3: And then you know we're kind of just like, okay,
Speaker 3: we'll get you know, we're told we'll be getting the
Speaker 3: kind of agreement language next week and chance to you know,
Speaker 3: debrief with the local, but really like the the I
Speaker 3: think it was the following day the actual language comes out,
Speaker 3: you know, and some of the things where it's you know,
Speaker 3: there's like a promise with the uh all the general
Speaker 3: wage increases going on top of those market rate adjustments
Speaker 3: we're speaking about, which are basically wages that are that
Speaker 3: ups can you know, add or even remove that's not
Speaker 3: actually tied to the contract wages and you know, so
Speaker 3: one of the things was, yeah, getting those raises on top,
Speaker 3: but there was no contract language you know in there,
Speaker 3: which definitely caused I think a lot of confusion concern
Speaker 3: among rank and file members. And it actually took one
Speaker 3: of the locals, uh, you know, having a no endorsement
Speaker 3: before we even saw this memorandum of understanding between the
Speaker 3: company and the IBT, you know, guaranteeing this was going
Speaker 3: to happen, you know, that we would be getting those
Speaker 3: raises on top. It was just kind of one of
Speaker 3: those things where you know, there was this kind of
Speaker 3: really vague language that was used and I think definitely
Speaker 3: caused you know, people to not really fully understand, you know,
Speaker 3: what was going on. Specially I think it was about
Speaker 3: seventy five percent of part timers are currently have a
Speaker 3: market rate adjustment. You know, that's kind of a very
Speaker 3: big portion of the workforce.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was a gonna be honest, it was a
Speaker 4: real it was kind of a real calm shit show, uh,
Speaker 4: from from union leadership releasing the information.
Speaker 2: Uh, in the way they did.
Speaker 4: It absolutely led to a lot of misunderstandings about what
Speaker 4: was in the contract, which you know, kind of spread
Speaker 4: like wildfire. And the union response to what I think
Speaker 4: is a lot of just genuine misunderstanding is to just
Speaker 4: label it all as misinformation from people that have, you know,
Speaker 4: their their own agendas, right, and you can't you can't
Speaker 4: like trust those people. You can only trust what's what's
Speaker 4: coming from the union. And Yeah, that definitely didn't inspire
Speaker 4: trust from the people that were leaning no, because in
Speaker 4: between a lot of these like and there is definitely
Speaker 4: was some misunderstanding about what was initially into the in
Speaker 4: the contract, but there is also genuine critique about certain
Speaker 4: things that are in the contract. Right, And so instead
Speaker 4: of like substantly substantively like looking at these genuine critiques,
Speaker 4: we're all forced in the situation of sorting out what
Speaker 4: is quote unquote misinformation or you know, more accurately, people
Speaker 4: not understanding legalese and also a bad role out of
Speaker 4: information versus Okay, but what is in the contract that
Speaker 4: really needs improvement? And instead of like substantially getting into
Speaker 4: the ladder, it's just been a pure focus on the former.
Speaker 4: And yeah, it's it's been, it's been kind of tense.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 4: It seems like, you know, it seems like there's a
Speaker 4: real mix, it's real kind of even even uh, how
Speaker 4: rank and vile members are responding to this contract. You know,
Speaker 4: some have kind of bought in full sale that this
Speaker 4: is a historic contract, and others, you know, you know,
Speaker 4: such as myself, like, you know, there's still things in
Speaker 4: this contract that to me are unacceptable and it's going
Speaker 4: to be interesting to see where it goes.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, you know, I kind of feel like
Speaker 3: it's hard to get a gauge of where everyone's at.
Speaker 3: And of course I only have the you know, kind
Speaker 3: of my local experience in my specific shift. You know, definitely, Yeah,
Speaker 3: I haven't I haven't come across you know, someone I
Speaker 3: work with yet, you know who's totally just like, yeah,
Speaker 3: this is superstoric, this is you know, game changing. Uh,
Speaker 3: you know, as they were saying, or the union was saying,
Speaker 3: a lot of people, you know, especially long timers, like yeah,
Speaker 3: this is a really good contract with you know, the
Speaker 3: best I've seen, uh, you know, in my days here.
Speaker 3: And then there's you know, there's been another few other
Speaker 3: people who are like, yeah, I'm gonna vote yes, but
Speaker 3: it really doesn't really seem like you know, it's matching,
Speaker 3: you know, the framing of you know, this historic contract.
Speaker 3: And then also know this, I mean, other people who
Speaker 3: are just kind of like, none, this seems I mean
Speaker 3: I was kind of like too little, too late, Like
Speaker 3: the games aren't quite there. Yeah, it's there's there's raises.
Speaker 3: They're also kind of done in a weird way where
Speaker 3: they're more or less like kind of front loaded towards
Speaker 3: the first and last year, and everything in the middle
Speaker 3: is a lot lower to the point actually where and
Speaker 3: it gets confusing because everyone's kind of at a different
Speaker 3: rate with those market rate adjustments. You know, the more
Speaker 3: you're making from you know, that supplemental pay, the worse
Speaker 3: this is going to keep with inflation to the point
Speaker 3: where it's kind of you're only actually going to be
Speaker 3: just above inflation towards the end of the contract, especially
Speaker 3: one of the definitely one of the weaker things in
Speaker 3: the contract is all new hires or current people without
Speaker 3: seniority are going to be on a different tier. And
Speaker 3: this is where the part timer inside warehouse positions, so
Speaker 3: you know the Yeah, so if you have seniority, it's
Speaker 3: minimum of twenty one an hour to start, and that
Speaker 3: goes up to twenty five seventy five an hour, versus
Speaker 3: those new hires or no seniority employees are going to
Speaker 3: be out twenty one with the progression to twenty three
Speaker 3: the fifty cent raises and of course, uh, you know,
Speaker 3: once you know, tack on the average you know, a
Speaker 3: little bit over three percent inflation, you know, I can
Speaker 3: kind of quickly see, uh, it's those new members who
Speaker 3: are getting the worst part of the deal.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And that comes to I think another thing that
Speaker 1: is like I don't know, so when this was all
Speaker 1: first happening, and I've seen this like a lot from
Speaker 1: people talking about this is people talking about this is
Speaker 1: like a contract that like ends the tier systems, and
Speaker 1: that just like doesn't seem to be true at all.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And so one of the things, so there's the yeah,
Speaker 3: I believe we spoke to this last time. The two
Speaker 3: two four is what it's called, where it's a combo
Speaker 3: driver and inside warehouse position and most of the time,
Speaker 3: you know, they were just more or less practically full
Speaker 3: time drivers, except for a few times where you know,
Speaker 3: they much like earlier this year they tried to transition
Speaker 3: them to mostly like inside full time. But so the
Speaker 3: thing is, yeah, those will all get you know, converted
Speaker 3: to the package car drivers with that, I believe, with
Speaker 3: that raid or at least very similar.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so we did get rid of the twenty two fours,
Speaker 4: and that was the big promise, you know, going into
Speaker 4: this contract fight. But yeah, no, there are definitely still
Speaker 4: remaining tiers within ups. You know, there's this new one
Speaker 4: that's been created, which is the you know, the tier
Speaker 4: between the what they call the unborn. That's how they
Speaker 4: refer to people that have not yet been hired by
Speaker 4: ups that have like stipulations in the contract, right, Yeah,
Speaker 4: they call them the unborn. It's it's kind of funny,
Speaker 4: and you know, their whole thing is that they just
Speaker 4: have a completely different wage progression than the rest of
Speaker 4: us do. But in addition to that tier which was introduced,
Speaker 4: you know, there are tiers elsewhere. Sometimes it's a tier
Speaker 4: between the hubs, like all of the hubs are making
Speaker 4: different MRAs and stuff like that. But additionally, there are
Speaker 4: some hubs that don't have a daily guarantee of hours
Speaker 4: like regular hubs do, like for instance, air hubs. Right,
Speaker 4: So like that's another basically another tier, because it's you know,
Speaker 4: people doing the same work but not guaranteed the same things.
Speaker 4: And yeah, yeah, so there's definitely tiers remaining in this
Speaker 4: contract for sure, and it's really unfortunate to see that
Speaker 4: the one existing didn't get addressed and that they just
Speaker 4: created a whole new one, even though they are adamantly
Speaker 4: insisting it is not here.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's you know, this goes back to I believe
Speaker 3: the nineteen eighty two contract, which is when the full
Speaker 3: time and part time pay was changed to different different tiers,
Speaker 3: with part time getting like four dollars less than full
Speaker 3: time which was I think twelve twelve an hour back
Speaker 3: in eighty two versus eight an hour for the part timers.
Speaker 3: You know, So that's continued, you know, across all these decades.
Speaker 3: And so now with the current contract, provided you're getting
Speaker 3: paid the contract minimums, yeah, you're looking at full time
Speaker 3: inside warehouse their top rate going to thirty six dollars
Speaker 3: an hour, I believe, and then you're gonna have part
Speaker 3: timers who have seniority just below twenty six an hour,
Speaker 3: and then you're gonna have those people who weren't quite
Speaker 3: in the door yet at twenty three. And of course,
Speaker 3: you know, it's doing more or less the you know,
Speaker 3: the same work the inside. You know, you're doing your loading, unloading, sorting,
Speaker 3: the other you know, various positions there. And of course
Speaker 3: you know, one of the things I've seen, you know,
Speaker 3: particularly online, I haven't heard this on the shop floor.
Speaker 3: It's just like, oh, well, you know they're working more,
Speaker 3: so of course they're going to get paid more. But
Speaker 3: it's like, okay, well, yeah, they have more hours, so
Speaker 3: they would get more paid, but that doesn't mean that
Speaker 3: they should be at a higher hourly rate. Yeah. Plus
Speaker 3: there's going to be other things too, like the pension
Speaker 3: of CRUL and you know, vacation time where you're working more,
Speaker 3: you're going to get more of that too. It's kind
Speaker 3: of has its own reward. There's really no reason to have,
Speaker 3: you know, like a ten dollars discrepancy for that type
Speaker 3: of work performed.
Speaker 1: Also, I was doing some quick math in the background,
Speaker 1: and the nineteen eighty two I wagees like thirty six
Speaker 1: dollars an hour and with inflation. Now, so that's historic.
Speaker 1: That's fun.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 4: I think it's when I think about, you know, this
Speaker 4: union being touted as historic, I like actually think about,
Speaker 4: like what are the actual historic wins of the labor movement?
Speaker 4: And you know, I'm thinking about, like, you know, the
Speaker 4: right to a five day work week. Meanwhile, this historic contract,
Speaker 4: you know it ended six day punches, but that's that's
Speaker 4: not a new historical thing. That was something we lost
Speaker 4: and then regained with this contract. So it's you know,
Speaker 4: in my mind, it's not really breaking any barriers or
Speaker 4: like you know, blowing anyone's minds, you know, especially when
Speaker 4: we have Sean Faye of the UAWD who is talking about,
Speaker 4: you know, one of their demands is a thirty two
Speaker 4: hour work week, right like he's he's advocating that every
Speaker 4: worker needs a forty percent an increase in pay because
Speaker 4: the CEO got a forty percent increase in pay.
Speaker 2: And yeah, it's just.
Speaker 4: Yeah, are our contract just you know, it isn't at
Speaker 4: that level by any means.
Speaker 3: When you said we're historic, you know, like I think
Speaker 3: there could be times where you can, you know, call
Speaker 3: something historic before it stands the test of time. But
Speaker 3: this is kind of like, Okay, this is kind of
Speaker 3: I feel like the contract, you know, you would expect
Speaker 3: a union to bargain. Maybe it's I mean partly it's
Speaker 3: historic because it just really hasn't been really any gains
Speaker 3: and so it's kind of like, Okay, you got us
Speaker 3: wage increases, isn't that kind of just like what you
Speaker 3: should be doing? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, I mean this is this has been
Speaker 1: there's been like this has been like the there's been
Speaker 1: a bunch of unions in the last like maybe like
Speaker 1: eight months who have like settled and been like we've
Speaker 1: gotten historic races, And it's like, I don't know, it's
Speaker 1: the thing that seems actually historic about it is essentially
Speaker 1: averting like averting this massive strike wave.
Speaker 3: Yeah. One of the things I wanted to add was,
Speaker 3: you know, especially with those combo positions, you know, ending
Speaker 3: that tier. That was something that was introduced in the
Speaker 3: previous contract, which rank and file members voted down. It
Speaker 3: was a no vote, but it was just because of
Speaker 3: this uh, you know, kind of obscure you know rule
Speaker 3: in the constitution where it's just like, oh, fifty percent
Speaker 3: of people don't vote, then it required the two thirds
Speaker 3: you know, no vote. So you know that was just
Speaker 3: completely you know, over overruled by the union, like we're
Speaker 3: going to do this anyways, So kind of you know,
Speaker 3: it's good that we righted that wrong. You know, it's
Speaker 3: good to reduce a tier. Of course, I'm not gonna
Speaker 3: knock that, but just kind of those things where it's like, yeah,
Speaker 3: but membership already didn't want that, or at least.
Speaker 1: You guys did this. Yeah, you guys did you guys
Speaker 1: introduced this in the first place, like come on, yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: It's also worth noting that the twenty two to four position,
Speaker 4: you know, it wasn't working for our members, but it
Speaker 4: also wasn't working for the company either. They were having
Speaker 4: significant trouble trying to fill all the shifts that we
Speaker 4: were needed and required by the position, and to the
Speaker 4: point that workers ended up kind of being slotted into
Speaker 4: one or the other with like really bad schedules, and
Speaker 4: it wasn't it wasn't working for either, is the thing.
Speaker 4: So it is it's great that we got rid of it,
Speaker 4: but it seems like it was somewhat of an easy
Speaker 4: thing to win. It made mutual sense, right, and yeah, yeah,
Speaker 4: it's just there were you know, there were bigger there
Speaker 4: could have been bigger fights over other things in this
Speaker 4: contract that weren't pursued, right, So.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that's that's the thing. From everything that
Speaker 1: I've seen from me, it seems like it seems like
Speaker 1: the goal of this contract is to get a contract
Speaker 1: that's like exactly good enough to get like fifty one
Speaker 1: percent of the vote in a contract to avoid UPS
Speaker 1: having to like actually deal with a contract that a
Speaker 1: strip would produce.
Speaker 2: Mm hm oh yeah, oh yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3: It's kind of the I mean whether I mean probably
Speaker 3: intentional where it's just like you know, it's like just
Speaker 3: good enough, you know, to maybe warrant like a yes vote,
Speaker 3: and especially i mean in contact of you know, the
Speaker 3: last however many contracts. But it's kind of one of
Speaker 3: those things where it's like, okay, by comparison, it's good,
Speaker 3: but again, you know, I don't think it quite goes
Speaker 3: far enough either on the wage side, you know, on
Speaker 3: the on the wages or you know, especially one of
Speaker 3: the issues I've been focused on a lot. Is the
Speaker 3: heat protections.
Speaker 1: Yeah, can we can we talk about well, specifically the
Speaker 1: heat protections, but then also kind of talk a bit
Speaker 1: about what's what is in the contract and what like
Speaker 1: isn't in the contract that should be. Oh yeah, you
Speaker 1: can start with the heat production stuff.
Speaker 3: Yeah. So one of the things. So they'll be rolling
Speaker 3: out air conditioners in the uh All trucks package cars purchase,
Speaker 3: I believe after August of the next year, and they'll
Speaker 3: be kind of distributing them by zones and current ones
Speaker 3: will be retrofitted with my heat shields and events. I'm
Speaker 3: not quite sure how effective that'll be. One of the
Speaker 3: things for the inside people, you know it's there. You know,
Speaker 3: they'll be installing you know, tens of thousands of more fans,
Speaker 3: which you know, I'm not gonna lie that that will
Speaker 3: feel really nice because those trailers just get so hot
Speaker 3: and stuffy. There's no airflow, especially like if it's been
Speaker 3: sitting for a while, you open the door, it's just
Speaker 3: like a last of heat. But the problem with fans
Speaker 3: is they're only so effective, particularly once it reaches ninety
Speaker 3: five degrees. They don't do anything, and so you know
Speaker 3: there's a lot of places where it'll probably feel nice
Speaker 3: and it might help to some degree, but you know,
Speaker 3: especially like right now in you know, like the Southwest
Speaker 3: and the south where you've just had these you know,
Speaker 3: one hundred and ten plus degree days, you know, like
Speaker 3: over a month, like that's not going to do really
Speaker 3: do much, especially if you're anywhere, depending on if you've
Speaker 3: got dry heat or you know, higher humidity in the
Speaker 3: latter fans can and sometimes make it worse. I'm also
Speaker 3: worried it's going to kind of be like this kind
Speaker 3: of like a comparison to a like security theater, but
Speaker 3: like more like safety theater, where it's this appearance of
Speaker 3: doing something to say like, look, we're doing this thing.
Speaker 3: It's going to keep you safe. But whether that's you know,
Speaker 3: actually true or not, well, I mean, we'll kind of
Speaker 3: find out. But definitely I'm pretty worried about, you know,
Speaker 3: what's going to happen, especially in the next five years.
Speaker 3: We already have and I think it was the it
Speaker 3: was it, it was the World Meteorological Organization, you know,
Speaker 3: now has a their researchers have like a ninety eight
Speaker 3: percent certainty that we're going to reach a high mark
Speaker 3: for global warming before twenty twenty seven, so you know,
Speaker 3: and I'm pretty sure last July was already the the
Speaker 3: hottest month on record globally, and it's something to read.
Speaker 3: There's in I think in that report of like a
Speaker 3: sixty six percent chance of passing that album one point
Speaker 3: five degrees celsius warming global warming between now in twenty
Speaker 3: twenty seven. So it's kind of one of those things where,
Speaker 3: you know, I don't think we necessarily have five years
Speaker 3: to wait to you know, address this contract language and
Speaker 3: add further protections. Especially we've got other unions like the
Speaker 3: International Longshorn Warehouse Union. They had an article that's talking
Speaker 3: about their heat protections, which have things like stewards that
Speaker 3: are equipped with heat monitoring equipment versus the current contract
Speaker 3: language for us would be they can just use like
Speaker 3: the OSHA app or you know, like weather service to
Speaker 3: check you know, like a weather station versus like the
Speaker 3: actual specific conditions you're working in. Yeah. Yeah, that seems
Speaker 3: like there'd.
Speaker 1: Be a huge it seems like there's a huge discrepancy
Speaker 1: there because like the indoor temperatures and temperatures in these
Speaker 1: trailers are way hotter than like the reported conditions.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it can be like five to ten degrees hotter.
Speaker 3: At least I bought a little thermometer and hydrometer, hygrometer
Speaker 3: something like that, whatever measures humidity, because that's kind of
Speaker 3: how because there are states with heat protections, there's like
Speaker 3: seven of them. A lot of times they're using the
Speaker 3: heat index when you're factoring in the temperature and humidity
Speaker 3: to get the feelds like temperature and yeah, with the
Speaker 3: il WU, you know, they're also getting rest breaks as
Speaker 3: part of their contract language, which I believe two or
Speaker 3: three states have those of the seven total that actually
Speaker 3: have heat protections. And you know, the ile WU is
Speaker 3: kind of talking about even though they have heat protections
Speaker 3: that kind of match or even kind of exceed partly
Speaker 3: what some of the states have. You know, they're kind
Speaker 3: of saying, this isn't enough for the current extreme heat
Speaker 3: we're facing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, and you know, talked about us on
Speaker 1: the show before. But like whatever heat protections get negotiated
Speaker 1: in a contract, like the company is going to basically
Speaker 1: the instant negotiations are over, is going to figure out
Speaker 1: what the well a, what the cheapest possible way to
Speaker 1: do this is with the shittiest equipment and then be
Speaker 1: like try to They're going to immediately try to figure
Speaker 1: out like how you know, like how how to actually
Speaker 1: subvert it. And you know, this is this is the
Speaker 1: thing we've seen all over the world, even in places
Speaker 1: that have sort of national heat protection laws, is that
Speaker 1: you know, even even if you have a law, or
Speaker 1: even if you have a thing in a contract, even
Speaker 1: if you have something in your contract, it doesn't necessarily
Speaker 1: mean it's going to be enforced. And that requires a
Speaker 1: you know, it requires like a pretty significant degree of
Speaker 1: organization to make sure it stays enforced. And that's you
Speaker 1: know that that's true both of stuff that's in contract
Speaker 1: and stuff that's like legally required, and so like if
Speaker 1: if if, if, if the thing that they're nominally required
Speaker 1: to do is still insufficient, it's going to end up
Speaker 1: being way worse than that on the ground.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we're seeing that with art i mean, existing heat
Speaker 3: protections at the state level, where they're you know, falling short,
Speaker 3: and especially you know there's either you know, there's kind
Speaker 3: of loopholes or even just kind of like murky language
Speaker 3: that makes it really hard to enforce. In some cases.
Speaker 1: Do not have a good transition, but it's hot. Yeah,
Speaker 1: here here are some ads that are i don't know,
Speaker 1: hopefully not making the climate worse. And we're back. So
Speaker 1: outside of the sort of of the experience around heat,
Speaker 1: what else has been going? Like, what else is in
Speaker 1: the contract that there's been sort of dispute over.
Speaker 4: So if you look online, and this is an instance
Speaker 4: of not really quite understanding what's in the contract. But
Speaker 4: if you go online, a lot of people think that
Speaker 4: there are pension freezes in the contract. And once again,
Speaker 4: I think we can contribute this misunderstanding to a calm
Speaker 4: strategy failure as well as a lack of open bargaining.
Speaker 4: The con the dot COM's the pension contribution rate has decreased,
Speaker 4: but money is still going in to the pension fund,
Speaker 4: not as much as it was, is my understanding. The
Speaker 4: way the union broke it down for me was like,
Speaker 4: there's a dollar and twenty five cents of that dollar
Speaker 4: is going to healthcare, twenty five cents of that dollar
Speaker 4: is going to the pension, and then fifty cents of
Speaker 4: it is going to wages. And I'm gonna be honest
Speaker 4: with you, I don't super understand all this money stuff either,
Speaker 4: but we yeah, they showed us a thing where like
Speaker 4: the contra visions are going to keep happening, other things
Speaker 4: that have been in the kind of in the like
Speaker 4: what we've all what people have been thinking about is
Speaker 4: the full time jobs, which I know we talked a
Speaker 4: lot about on the last one, and uh yeah, that's it.
Speaker 4: I think we we were using the seventy five hundred
Speaker 4: for newly created jobs, but apparently the contract also specifically
Speaker 4: requires them to actually fill the twenty two thousand some
Speaker 4: full time jobs that exist that they just have not
Speaker 4: been filling. But even with that additional twenty two thousand,
Speaker 4: that's still roughly thirty thousand full time jobs that is
Speaker 4: for the full time work for the whole workforce of
Speaker 4: three hundred and forty thousand people. And something I learned
Speaker 4: is that full time drivers can bid into those positions
Speaker 4: and get them because they will likely have the seniority
Speaker 4: to do so. Because that's how we determine how to
Speaker 4: fill jobs. It's by seniority, you know, how long have
Speaker 4: you been there? And usually you know, I think that
Speaker 4: makes sense, but you know, that really just contributes to
Speaker 4: the to the long long wait of part timers trying
Speaker 4: to get full time work.
Speaker 2: Right, and.
Speaker 4: Yeah, like the thing like kind of related to that.
Speaker 4: You know, we have these like if you have a
Speaker 4: market rate adjustment and you get your two seventy five,
Speaker 4: for me, that's going to be twenty six seventy five
Speaker 4: an hour. And that looks great until you remember that
Speaker 4: we are part time. It is like we are supposed
Speaker 4: to work half a work week. I work less than
Speaker 4: because of the hub that I am at, which is
Speaker 4: not great, but you know, we need the hours and
Speaker 4: there's not the there isn't enough jobs, and that's stimulated
Speaker 4: by this contract.
Speaker 2: I think that there probably could be a lot more jobs.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to see something about that specifically too,
Speaker 1: which is that like when when like you random listener
Speaker 1: who's not working at ups, whenever you see someone like
Speaker 1: talking about a wage number and it's for part timers,
Speaker 1: Like if if you want to try to figure out
Speaker 1: can this person's your vibe? You need to divide that
Speaker 1: number by two at like at the very least divide
Speaker 1: up by two, possibly divide it by more. Because again,
Speaker 1: like they don't, no one, no one's like if you're
Speaker 1: a part timer, like obviously, yeah you're not. You're not
Speaker 1: getting the hours that you know, that that that you
Speaker 1: that you would normally you know, if if you can't
Speaker 1: just immediately convert that to what would the salary be
Speaker 1: if you work, if you got like forty hours a
Speaker 1: week or whatever, like you can't do that. I've seen
Speaker 1: a lot I've seen this a lot, a lot, like
Speaker 1: on the internet. I've seen pundits talking about it like this,
Speaker 1: and it's just like a incomprehensible misunderstanding of the act
Speaker 1: of like how how this stuff actually works for you
Speaker 1: to be going like, oh, look at all this money
Speaker 1: that people are making, assuming that like you know, and
Speaker 1: then and then using calculations that are based on like
Speaker 1: someone working full time, which is most of the workforce,
Speaker 1: like a significant significant majority of the workforce is not
Speaker 1: is not working full time and will not be even
Speaker 1: after this contract.
Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, it's yeah, it's estimated there are sixty percent
Speaker 4: of the workforce is is part timers.
Speaker 2: So yeah, no, that is a that is a huge issue.
Speaker 4: You know, a lot of people also, like when this
Speaker 4: is brought up, a lot of people like to then say, well,
Speaker 4: you know, get a second job, but our jobs aren't flexible.
Speaker 4: Like first of all, fuck fuck having a second job.
Speaker 4: I am kind of staunchly opposed to the entire concept.
Speaker 4: But even if I wasn't, this job is not flexible
Speaker 4: enough to account for a second job, not unless you
Speaker 4: never want to sleep in your second job is when
Speaker 4: you should be like sleeping because you know, we have
Speaker 4: our start times, those are given to us a week
Speaker 4: in advance, but we don't know when our end times
Speaker 4: are because the end times are when we run out
Speaker 4: of packages. So you know, some days, you know, like
Speaker 4: in my hub, it's always just going to be the
Speaker 4: two hours, but like in other hubs, you could be there,
Speaker 4: you know, you could be trying to get your three
Speaker 4: and a half hour daily guarantee, like employing that when
Speaker 4: they're trying to send you home, or you could be
Speaker 4: there six seven hours, and you know, how how how
Speaker 4: is another employer supposed to operate with that? You know,
Speaker 4: you call in like three times saying like, oh, I
Speaker 4: can't actually leave my first job. You're not going to
Speaker 4: have that second job much longer. So yeah, in addition
Speaker 4: to the lack of full time jobs, the way this
Speaker 4: job is makes a second one impossible. So a lot
Speaker 4: of our part timers really are relying on that on
Speaker 4: that part time wage to get them through and picking
Speaker 4: up doubles when they can, which means you kind of
Speaker 4: end up having a ten hour day because there's like
Speaker 4: about a two hour like space of time in between
Speaker 4: the shifts. So yeah, yeah, it's uh yeah, those are
Speaker 4: those are some some of the big issues.
Speaker 3: So yeah, that's one of my worries. You know, if
Speaker 3: I've about you know, if I want to go full
Speaker 3: time or not, is you know, can be at least
Speaker 3: in the hub I work at, I would say usually
Speaker 3: I'm getting like twenty four hours a week, you know,
Speaker 3: if I'm going full time, but double that because now
Speaker 3: I'm working two shifts. But also you know, got to
Speaker 3: have that like hour or two of wait time between shifts.
Speaker 3: You know, it's just a lot of time to be
Speaker 3: spending at work, especially on paid time at work. That
Speaker 3: is that is the worst. You know, it's not quite
Speaker 3: long enough stretch to like go home or at least
Speaker 3: you know you have a decent commute to work. And
Speaker 3: you know, another thing kind of came to my mind
Speaker 3: a little earlier earlier was that and it sounds like
Speaker 3: at least talking with new hires, that this is still continuing,
Speaker 3: which is kind of this really deceptive hiring practice where
Speaker 3: the hours are posted. When I got the job, you know,
Speaker 3: it was posted as part time. For get it was
Speaker 3: something like, uh, I don't know, I'm not to four,
Speaker 3: but you know, had that schedule for five days a week,
Speaker 3: seven hour shifts, thirty five hours a week times. By
Speaker 3: the twenty six starting pay, I was like, oh, perfect,
Speaker 3: I'll be making like, you know, somewhere like mid forty thousand.
Speaker 3: That's that's livable at least for my specific you know circumstances.
Speaker 3: But then of course get there and you know the yeah,
Speaker 3: we get two days notice for a start time. It's
Speaker 3: posted on our either you know, end of the week,
Speaker 3: so don't know exactly when I'm working, you know, until
Speaker 3: right before the next week, and you know, at least
Speaker 3: there an orientation. Soone asked, oh, like, what's actually the
Speaker 3: end time. I was just like, oh, well, when the
Speaker 3: last package is loaded. Of course, if you know what
Speaker 3: when the next shift starts, you can kind of get
Speaker 3: a better idea of when you'll actually be out of there.
Speaker 3: But still it's just kind of it's, you know, it's
Speaker 3: this claim flexibility, but it's very difficult, you know, to
Speaker 3: actually work a second job or even know they offer
Speaker 3: tuition reimbursement, and there's a number of students who have
Speaker 3: had you know, a hard time actually like you know,
Speaker 3: getting the time off to attend their classes. And I
Speaker 3: also second anywhere that's part time work that offers tuition reimbursement.
Speaker 3: You know, I would say this an expected expectation that Okay,
Speaker 3: well you're going to school and you're working part time.
Speaker 3: You would think the wages then should at least you know,
Speaker 3: provide enough for rent, food, gas, textbooks, all that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, to piggyback off of what Oliver just said regarding
Speaker 4: you know, like this is a wage that is good
Speaker 4: for you know, their situation when they were assuming it
Speaker 4: was at the you know, thirty five hours a week.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 4: Another thing to think about is a lot of these
Speaker 4: part timers, you know, they have families, they have significant
Speaker 4: others that they're caring for. Like, you know, a lot
Speaker 4: of people look at this wage and one make the
Speaker 4: faulty assumption that you talked about earlier by multiplying it
Speaker 4: by forty to get the forty and then they assume
Speaker 4: that's for just that one person.
Speaker 2: And like, there are part timers of every age, right,
Speaker 2: and they all have their.
Speaker 4: Own their own families and stuff like that that they
Speaker 4: are expected to care for as well. So like when
Speaker 4: you look at all of this and the you know,
Speaker 4: the rate of inflation and the way the economy is,
Speaker 4: and you take all of these things into account, like
Speaker 4: the gains that are provided for in this contract is
Speaker 4: not enough when you consider the whole of everyone.
Speaker 2: Who works at UPS.
Speaker 4: You know, it's leaving behind families, right, Like yeah, it's
Speaker 4: it's wild.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And I think another thing that isn't talked about
Speaker 1: that much in terms of this is like the actual
Speaker 1: physical effect on your body of doing this kind of work,
Speaker 1: because this is like I don't know, this kind of
Speaker 1: work is intense enough that I mean there's there's there's
Speaker 1: very rare risk of injury, and there's also I mean
Speaker 1: just like you know, over the course of time, doing
Speaker 1: this kind of shit is going to like fuck up
Speaker 1: your body, and you know, like part part of the
Speaker 1: sort of bargain of like like part part of the
Speaker 1: bargain of this work is that you're getting you know,
Speaker 1: it's it's in some ways, like it's in some ways
Speaker 1: like you could think about it like if you're a
Speaker 1: middle of a football player, like you're gonna get your
Speaker 1: fucking brain destroyed by just repeated head trauma, right, and
Speaker 1: you know, so, so there's only a limited amount of
Speaker 1: time your body can physically handle this. And it's like, yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: it looks like you're getting a lot of money in
Speaker 1: a very short amount of time, but you have to,
Speaker 1: you know, you have to live with the sort of
Speaker 1: physical consequences of what happened of what happened to you
Speaker 1: on that job getting the money. So that money also
Speaker 1: like not just doesn't just have to get you through
Speaker 1: like now, right, like it also it has to also
Speaker 1: essentially be compensation to the physical damage that you're doing
Speaker 1: to your body by doing this shit. And you know,
Speaker 1: I think I think it. I think like these ways
Speaker 1: look even worse when you look at like, you know,
Speaker 1: when you when you think of it in terms of
Speaker 1: you know, in in in like in like not even
Speaker 1: not just in terms of immediate rent, but like in
Speaker 1: in the really long term of having to you know,
Speaker 1: live with the sort of physical damage that you take
Speaker 1: from doing this stuff.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's fine. I just had a coworker talking
Speaker 3: about that today actually, And because that's I mean, there
Speaker 3: are a lot of like college age kids you know,
Speaker 3: the early twenties. They at least from you know, my
Speaker 3: experience of notes kind of usually they're kind of like
Speaker 3: the quick turnover. I feel like a lot of people
Speaker 3: are staying more like their you know, thirties forties. You know,
Speaker 3: we have people older older than that too. On my line,
Speaker 3: I think part of that's just like kind of we
Speaker 3: understand the importance of i mean a gold tier uh
Speaker 3: health insurance plant and a pension. But you know, of
Speaker 3: course with uh, you know, being older, Uh, it's gonna
Speaker 3: you know, have even more of an effect on the body.
Speaker 3: And yeah, I know I've heard people talking about this
Speaker 3: where it's just like, oh, well, it's just part time
Speaker 3: or it's you know, entry level you know, quote unquote,
Speaker 3: Uh you don't need a degree for this, Like why
Speaker 3: do you think you should be paid more? And it's like, well,
Speaker 3: it's it's brutal. I mean, we get a ten minute break,
Speaker 3: we're working up to six hours. That is it Why
Speaker 3: they don't have to do a lunch break. I don't know.
Speaker 3: It seems like ups just always gets there their way,
Speaker 3: and uh that's you know, like state, local, bederal law
Speaker 3: that they don't care. Yeah, even this last contract and
Speaker 3: there's so many violations. Of course, you know, we got
Speaker 3: to whether you know this is yes or no, whatever
Speaker 3: the next contract is. You know, that's going to be
Speaker 3: a big part of the fight, is just holding them
Speaker 3: accountable and to the terms.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, Like I you know, I've had coworkers
Speaker 4: out on you know, workers comp for like you know,
Speaker 4: doing physical therapy for the injuries that they got on
Speaker 4: the job for like months at a time. Right, these like,
Speaker 4: you know, we're sitting around loading boxes all day. And
Speaker 4: some of them are very light, but some of them
Speaker 4: are really fucking heavy.
Speaker 2: Some of them are really awkward to hold. They're weirdly shaped.
Speaker 4: Like there are some boxes where, like they tell you
Speaker 4: about ups, tells you about methods, the eight keys of
Speaker 4: lifting and lowering that you know should make it safe,
Speaker 4: but like there are some boxes where it's impossible to
Speaker 4: follow those those methods the absolute bane of my existence,
Speaker 4: and I recognize them every time I see them. I
Speaker 4: swear to God, these things must be just filled with lead,
Speaker 4: because you look at them and it's a very small box.
Speaker 2: You know, it's not more than like.
Speaker 4: Probably twelve inches long, you know, know, like no, not
Speaker 4: even twelve inches, probably more like seven inches long, you know,
Speaker 4: like six seven inches wide and then like two and
Speaker 4: a half inches you know deep, And that should be
Speaker 4: a very easy box, but it's like filled with lead
Speaker 4: and for whatever reason, it can weigh like thirty five
Speaker 4: to fifty pounds Jesus, And it's like one that box
Speaker 4: is too small to like have a team lift on
Speaker 4: because you can't have two people around something like that.
Speaker 4: And like, you know, when you pick up a box,
Speaker 4: you're supposed to keep the natural curve of your back,
Speaker 4: but do not over extend the curve. And you have
Speaker 4: to for those like packages like that, right, Like there's
Speaker 4: not a way to position yourself to lift them safely,
Speaker 4: and you kind of have to a little bit jerk up,
Speaker 4: which they tell you not to do, but that's the
Speaker 4: only way to get leverage on it. And yeah, like
Speaker 4: and you know, I've been in trailers where like a
Speaker 4: box like that was loaded precariously, like just slightly my head,
Speaker 4: and one time it came crashing down and I like
Speaker 4: neoed out of the way, like I was like in
Speaker 4: the fucking matrix, and I was just like, oh, if
Speaker 4: I had just been a little bit less responsive, that
Speaker 4: could have been a very serious head injury for me,
Speaker 4: and so yeah, the risk of like very severe injury. Like,
Speaker 4: you know, I busted my face open on a grate
Speaker 4: outside of where the what we call the cans, which
Speaker 4: are like the things that have all the packages. They
Speaker 4: bring them to the bay doors. I was unloading and
Speaker 4: I had to go between them, and I like.
Speaker 2: There was motor oil spilled.
Speaker 4: I tripped and I like smashed my open my face
Speaker 4: open on a fucking grate and had to get stitches.
Speaker 4: Like it's yeah, no, the safety involved with this job
Speaker 4: is not extremely guaranteed, and yeah, the risk of injury
Speaker 4: is high and we should be preemptively compensated for that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like and even somehow if you managed to
Speaker 3: go like your whole career without a single injury, you know,
Speaker 3: there's well at least like more the kind of like
Speaker 3: accidental injury because it's still it's a lot of repetitive
Speaker 3: motion and you're gonna, I mean, eventually it's gonna take
Speaker 3: its tall.
Speaker 1: Right, we're doing, We're doing, We're doing some more ads.
Speaker 3: Yeah by things.
Speaker 1: All right, we are back. So I guess I know.
Speaker 1: Another aspect of this that I wanted to talk about
Speaker 1: has been the sort of broader strategy of trying to
Speaker 1: avoid strikes, and this has been both sort of to
Speaker 1: some extent run by union, to some extent like imposed
Speaker 1: from the top down. One of the things I wanted
Speaker 1: to talk about, Yeah, I think a sort of kind
Speaker 1: of underdiscussed aspect of what's been happening in the last
Speaker 1: sort of year or so has been Biden's willingness to
Speaker 1: get involved in strikes. Earlier, you know, Obama eventually got
Speaker 1: involved in a couple of strikes during his tenure, but
Speaker 1: he tended to not get involved until like a strike
Speaker 1: had been going on for like nine months or whatever.
Speaker 1: And Biden's been taking like a very very proactive approach
Speaker 1: to sort of I don't know, strike mitigation, I guess
Speaker 1: is the sort of like sanitized term you taker to there,
Speaker 1: like keeping labor piece. But he seems to have a
Speaker 1: sort of you know, he's to be getting very very involved,
Speaker 1: very quickly in trying to make sure that strikes don't happen.
Speaker 1: And you know the consequence of this is that we
Speaker 1: didn't get the rail strike that we should have gotten,
Speaker 1: and there's there's been a few other strikes that has
Speaker 1: sort of been averted, and I wanted to ask, I
Speaker 1: guess how you're thinking about this strike, not just sort
Speaker 1: of in terms of like the immediate benefits, but in
Speaker 1: terms terms of what it would actually mean if like
Speaker 1: another major strike sort of get shut down before we
Speaker 1: can get going in a year that is, I mean
Speaker 1: still even if the strike doesn't happen, a pretty sort
Speaker 1: of full year in labor terms.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, well one, I guess I got to say
Speaker 4: thank you to the most pro labor president.
Speaker 2: Of our life. Yeah. No, he Yeah, you're absolutely right.
Speaker 4: He does seem to be getting involved early and mitigating them.
Speaker 4: If I was, if I had to speculate, I you know,
Speaker 4: he's very concerned about this whole economy thing that we
Speaker 4: keep talking about, right, and he doesn't want to see
Speaker 4: any big shocks to the economy. And you know that's
Speaker 4: something where I guess I disagree. I think, you know,
Speaker 4: I think a shock to the economy that is brought
Speaker 4: about by workers going on strike is a reminds them
Speaker 4: of what they have and what they move and what
Speaker 4: they create, right, And I think, yeah, the ruling class,
Speaker 4: you know, our politicians and the capitalists who own our politicians,
Speaker 4: they they don't want us to experience that, you know,
Speaker 4: like I remember even during the you know, the Trump administration,
Speaker 4: when you know, it was when during the government shutdown
Speaker 4: and Sarah Nelson got all the flight attendants to do
Speaker 4: a sick out and stuff like that, and kind of
Speaker 4: just like that the government shutdown had ended and they
Speaker 4: all went back to do government things, whatever those government
Speaker 4: things are. And you know, like people on Twitter, you know,
Speaker 4: they were talking about like, yeah, this is like workers
Speaker 4: have power to affect not only their own work conditions,
Speaker 4: but they can have broad implications on society, on the
Speaker 4: political climate, on what's going on. And yeah, there was absolutely,
Speaker 4: I think a contingent of centrist liberals that were like
Speaker 4: really frightened by that idea. You know, they like they
Speaker 4: like a society in which the right people with who
Speaker 4: went to the right schools and all of that, like
Speaker 4: where they are the ones that are in charge, and
Speaker 4: they are the ones that are shaping history with the
Speaker 4: pen strokes on like you know, whatever bills they're legislating,
Speaker 4: And yeah, I think they have a vested interest in
Speaker 4: making sure that workers don't get to experience that sense
Speaker 4: of autonomy that they can experience by going on strike
Speaker 4: and by seeing you know, exactly what kind of power
Speaker 4: they have and what it does, because they don't want it.
Speaker 4: They don't want it to get beyond what's going on
Speaker 4: in the workplace.
Speaker 2: They barely want it there, you know.
Speaker 4: Like so, yeah, yeah, I think there is a vested interest,
Speaker 4: And yeah, I have not I've been able to see
Speaker 4: it confirmed, but I have seen in articles where they
Speaker 4: will say that, you know, Sean O'Brien had met with
Speaker 4: President Biden, but then there isn't a link click through,
Speaker 4: so I can't figure out what the initial thing is.
Speaker 4: But I'm not surprised. I'm not surprised, Like, and it's
Speaker 4: it's a it's a damn shame. It's you know, it's
Speaker 4: a shame that the president of our local union, you know,
Speaker 4: should that have happened to come to it?
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the thing where it's like it's been really
Speaker 1: hard to get reliable information. And it's also possible they
Speaker 1: were sort of behind the scenes talks that we just
Speaker 1: don't know about. But you know, the place we know
Speaker 1: this happened is we know this happened between the rail strikes.
Speaker 1: There was a lot of pressure from rail unions to
Speaker 1: like like on on their rank and file to like
Speaker 1: get to just like sign on to some kind of agreement.
Speaker 1: And I think I think this is something that you know,
Speaker 1: in terms of sort of political repression, like it's something
Speaker 1: that's not understood in the same way, but like that
Speaker 1: is also still like that, like that that like negotiating
Speaker 1: behind the scenes, are putting pressure on and then you know,
Speaker 1: eventually Biden does just actively like mandate that the strike
Speaker 1: can't happen, right Like that is like that I will
Speaker 1: argue that that is in fact a full of strike breaking.
Speaker 2: M M agree.
Speaker 1: And I think I think people are tend to be
Speaker 1: less but but you know, specifically, the ability to sort
Speaker 1: of cut deals with unions, like this is something that
Speaker 1: the Republicans have like aren't like really good at. Like
Speaker 1: it's not it's not an ability that they really have.
Speaker 1: It's it's something that like is largely limited to the Democrats.
Speaker 1: And but you know, but this this means that they
Speaker 1: have sort of they have a unique capacity to repress
Speaker 1: social movements that isn't as obvious as sort of like
Speaker 1: you know, just like a bunch of strike breakers showing
Speaker 1: up or the cop showing up. But is there all
Speaker 1: the same And I think is in some ways more
Speaker 1: dangerous because you know, like you get these arguments with
Speaker 1: like with the rail strike, where like technically eventually Biden
Speaker 1: was able to get some kind of deal through for
Speaker 1: some sick time, right, but you know, and you have
Speaker 1: this sort of like liberal conception of what labor is
Speaker 1: where they're like, oh, well, everyone was wrong to like
Speaker 1: be mad at Biden for this, like they got the
Speaker 1: thing eventually. But you know, the problem here isn't it
Speaker 1: isn't just you know, strikes aren't just about the immediate
Speaker 1: thing that you're fighting for, right, like, they're they're also
Speaker 1: about like moving the class as a whole. They're about
Speaker 1: the experience of striking. They're about and then you know,
Speaker 1: and they're also about the fact that you will get
Speaker 1: a better deal if you win a strike. Then you
Speaker 1: will if you get like, you know, if if you
Speaker 1: get one of these sort of like negotiated deals like
Speaker 1: cut in the back room by Biden and like seventeen
Speaker 1: unions in the Manufacturer's Association. And so I think, I
Speaker 1: think I think it's important to understand that, you know,
Speaker 1: the like there is a fundamental sort of difference between
Speaker 1: like liberalism sort of conception of you know, you you
Speaker 1: achieve material gains, and it doesn't really matter what the
Speaker 1: process is, right, or you know, the process is like
Speaker 1: you go through the legislative domain. There's an actual difference
Speaker 1: between that and the things that happens DRAE to strike,
Speaker 1: which is, you know, there's there's an actual process of
Speaker 1: like the building of power of workers and you know,
Speaker 1: building the autonomy of the class itself. And I don't know,
Speaker 1: I think I think those are very different. And I
Speaker 1: think I think a lot of what we've been seeing
Speaker 1: here is an attempt both by unions themselves, by and
Speaker 1: you know, by by business leaders, and also by like
Speaker 1: the president and the Democratic Party to try to make
Speaker 1: sure that this doesn't happen and that they can sort
Speaker 1: of contain this really explosive labor moments and prevent it
Speaker 1: from sort of turning into more.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that's very true. I think that you know,
Speaker 4: the unions, you know, have long been divorced from their
Speaker 4: original roots. Is like, you know, this was a communist,
Speaker 4: socialist This sprung out of communism, socialism, anarchism. It was
Speaker 4: about workers banding together to not only collectively bargained just
Speaker 4: for the workplaces, but for society wide issues, right, unions
Speaker 4: used to be explicitly political, and I you know, as
Speaker 4: we've like seen this rise in political conscience, you know,
Speaker 4: over like this last decade. The ruling class and you know,
Speaker 4: the entrenched union bureaucrats that have long been you know,
Speaker 4: divorced from those origins, I think, have a very vested
Speaker 4: interest and you know, not having labor go back to
Speaker 4: those roots to and stuff like that, you know, it
Speaker 4: threatens it obviously, the working or the ruling class power,
Speaker 4: excuse me, And you know it threatens your union bureaucrat
Speaker 4: jobs when workers start like demanding more from like what
Speaker 4: the labor movement can provide for them.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 4: So I think that's all, that's all very true, And
Speaker 4: it's just that this is another avenue where collective change
Speaker 4: is possible, and the state and capital will always clamp
Speaker 4: down on any avenue where change can be achieved through
Speaker 4: those means. So I think that's really really what we're
Speaker 4: seeing here.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I don't know, I mean, I think I
Speaker 1: think another thing that's worth pointing out is that like
Speaker 1: part of the reason that like part of the reason
Speaker 1: that you know, if you if you go back to
Speaker 1: sort of like when when the error of the sort
Speaker 1: of decline of unionism happened, right, Like, part of the
Speaker 1: reason why the Reagan era repression worked was that a
Speaker 1: lot of these unions had already sort of hollowed out
Speaker 1: the radical core of like what had been their union organizers.
Speaker 1: They had purged, you know, like the CIO, I mean
Speaker 1: even back as there's always like the forties, like the
Speaker 1: CIO purged like all of its leftist members, and you know,
Speaker 1: you got these successive like these these successive sort of
Speaker 1: iterations of unionism that were less and less militant, and
Speaker 1: you know, like you can you can you can literally
Speaker 1: see what the result of that has been, right, like
Speaker 1: union density down to like six percent. And so you know,
Speaker 1: if if if if, if it keeps going like this
Speaker 1: and we keep getting these sort of like sustained efforts
Speaker 1: to make sure that it never redevelops again, Like yeah,
Speaker 1: like it's we're gonna we're gonna be stuck there.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I mean it's just yeah, I mean, specific
Speaker 3: to those ups contracts. Can absolutely see that, you know,
Speaker 3: by looking at the wage growth you know, through the
Speaker 3: last forty years, or maybe the lack thereof more of
Speaker 3: the stagnating wages just you know, between either you know,
Speaker 3: Union of fish are you know, even in the you know,
Speaker 3: Biden coming in. I think it's like, you know, more
Speaker 3: or less like these people who aren't going you know,
Speaker 3: who didn't enter the economy, uh, you know within the
Speaker 3: last you know decade or two. You know, I don't
Speaker 3: know at all really what what our experiences are. Uh
Speaker 3: you know what kind of challenges and struggles and burdens
Speaker 3: were facing. And I mean especially and not prepared at
Speaker 3: all for you know, this world with a drastically changing climate.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and then like you know, also to go back
Speaker 4: to like you know, the decline of you know, how
Speaker 4: unions have operated you know, over these last like for
Speaker 4: for some decades.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 4: I think this is something I talked about a lot,
Speaker 4: and I talked about it, I think on the last podcast.
Speaker 4: But you know, once the the organized left was kind
Speaker 4: of purged out of all of these unions, you know,
Speaker 4: unions kind of became about a service mall.
Speaker 2: And you know that's when the union.
Speaker 4: Leadership, you know does you know, like you on the
Speaker 4: floor are enforcing your contract, You're bringing your grievances to
Speaker 4: the union, and the union is getting something done about them.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: And I think you.
Speaker 4: Know, that model in and of itself is indicative of
Speaker 4: a decline of a collective action, right, that reduces the
Speaker 4: union to Yeah, that's the entity you're going you go
Speaker 4: to when there is an issue in the enforcement of
Speaker 4: your contract and they negotiate a new contract for you,
Speaker 4: and you know, that's that's the service model type, right,
Speaker 4: And that's like what we're seeing a lot of. That's
Speaker 4: what like, you know, a lot of the business unions
Speaker 4: do and stuff like that. Some of them do it
Speaker 4: better than others, you know. But then there's also the
Speaker 4: organizing model, where you use the union as it means
Speaker 4: to make your members militant, and they do contract enforcement
Speaker 4: on the floor and they like you know, organ i
Speaker 4: protests at their work site, and they like you know,
Speaker 4: they get involved in you know, issues outside of the
Speaker 4: work site, right, And I think, yeah, like watching the
Speaker 4: service model kind of prevail over these last you know,
Speaker 4: some decades over the organizing model is just yeah, it's
Speaker 4: absolutely just another sign of collective action being stamped down
Speaker 4: wherever it can be.
Speaker 1: You know, there's this an interesting thing with the there's
Speaker 1: an interesting thing with the service model that I see
Speaker 1: a lot where it's like, you know, when when when
Speaker 1: when you're getting like sort of union inoculation, uh like stuff, right,
Speaker 1: they'll be like, ah, like the management is going to
Speaker 1: tell you that like the union is an outside force
Speaker 1: and it's not. The union is actually you. And it's
Speaker 1: like this is true. But also like, damn, I wonder
Speaker 1: where the idea that the union is an outside force
Speaker 1: it is not actually you came from. Like it couldn't
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's like it could it couldn't possibly
Speaker 1: have anything to do with the way you run your union,
Speaker 1: Like yeah.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, absolutely, Yeah.
Speaker 3: I think we were talking about that last time, like
Speaker 3: the kind of like the lack of onboarding engagement by
Speaker 3: the union. Yeah, I mean especially you know, I mean yeah,
Speaker 3: I mean I know this. I mean other union members too,
Speaker 3: where like does kind of feel like they're like, oh,
Speaker 3: I don't have all these benefits or higher pay or
Speaker 3: or you know, we're thinking about striking, but we don't
Speaker 3: even have a strike bund. You know, we don't know
Speaker 3: how exactly well weather the storm. I mean that's something
Speaker 3: I hear you know, a lot on the shop floor.
Speaker 3: It's like when talking about you know, our union, you know,
Speaker 3: it's it's always the union, I know, I say that
Speaker 3: a ton too, But I mean I kind of feel
Speaker 3: like the language we just use like day to day
Speaker 3: talking about it, you know, I kind of there's not
Speaker 3: like inherent separation when it's like, oh, it's the union,
Speaker 3: it's the some you know, it's this outside thing. It's
Speaker 3: not oh, it's a collection of all you know, rank
Speaker 3: and filement, whereas it's us.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it doesn't. But the thing is, yeah, it
Speaker 1: doesn't become that unless you have a really high level
Speaker 1: of participation and then also like a systemic effort to
Speaker 1: make sure that to make sure everyone is involved and
Speaker 1: to make sure that you know, the the union functions
Speaker 1: in such a way that even that that like you
Speaker 1: know that that decisions of membership action matters. And I
Speaker 1: don't know, I think I think I think it's really
Speaker 1: I think it's really easy to you know, in this
Speaker 1: moment where unions are incredibly like you know, with the
Speaker 1: totally the actual amount of like unions in the US
Speaker 1: is really small, and also simultaneously, like you know, we're
Speaker 1: seeing a sort of reservience of union organizing. I think
Speaker 1: it's really really easy to sort of fall into this
Speaker 1: trap and like be be completely uncritical of the way
Speaker 1: that unions have functions. Because again, like if the current
Speaker 1: model of unions that exists right now, like if that
Speaker 1: stuff worked, like we wouldn't be in in in the
Speaker 1: sort of conditions that we're in now. And that calls
Speaker 1: for you know, like that that that calls for collective action,
Speaker 1: and you know one of the things that calls for
Speaker 1: is being willing to go on strike.
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, Yeah.
Speaker 1: Do you two have anything else that you wanted to add?
Speaker 4: Yeah, no, because like something that you know, when I
Speaker 4: think about, like, you know, how do we get back
Speaker 4: to like this sort of you know where a union is,
Speaker 4: you know, we are the union. A union is a
Speaker 4: like is a collective of workers advocating for their rights.
Speaker 4: Right they are banding together, you know, they're negotiating together.
Speaker 4: And when I think about you know, the Teamsters, you know,
Speaker 4: and how they operate right now. And you know, we
Speaker 4: just had that big reform slate when where Seawn O'Brien
Speaker 4: won and then you know, delivered us this contract. And
Speaker 4: you know, Shaun O'Brien did do like they they did
Speaker 4: in TDU did do other good things. They got rid
Speaker 4: of that constitutional rule that Oliver mentioned earlier. But I
Speaker 4: think you know, when we talk about like bringing down
Speaker 4: that barrier between the union and the members, the next
Speaker 4: most obvious step for me is that we need to
Speaker 4: get to open bargaining in this union. And frankly, I
Speaker 4: think open bargaining, or the fact that this bargaining was closed,
Speaker 4: you know, is behind it's behind closed doors. You know,
Speaker 4: there were NDAs signed, there were rank and file members there,
Speaker 4: but they also couldn't tell us about it because of
Speaker 4: those you know, NDAs. Open bargaining is what's going to
Speaker 4: solve this, because this, like the whole fiasco about this
Speaker 4: tentative agreement and now all the kind of resulting hostility
Speaker 4: that is felt between members and leadership and members and
Speaker 4: even other members.
Speaker 2: I think it's you know, like.
Speaker 4: So much of this is due to a failure of
Speaker 4: comms and the fact that we did not know what
Speaker 4: was being discussed in these negotiations at any time, except
Speaker 4: for the vague highlights that they could tell us about, right,
Speaker 4: and then you know, they release a highlight reel that
Speaker 4: has very confusing language. They eventually do release the contract,
Speaker 4: but not all of the memorandums of understanding that would
Speaker 4: help us understand what is actually in that contract. And
Speaker 4: you know, they're releasing all of this information in a
Speaker 4: way that is going to result in people not understanding
Speaker 4: what's in it. And I really do think open bargaining
Speaker 4: is the next step that you know, reformers in this
Speaker 4: union need to be advocating and organizing for.
Speaker 2: Because that this has just kind of.
Speaker 4: Been a real ship show, to be honest, and I yeah,
Speaker 4: I think it's a comms failure to be perfectly honest.
Speaker 3: So yeah, yeah, and I would I would absolutely agree
Speaker 3: with that, you know, and I know like there was
Speaker 3: there was a IBT webinar with Sean O'Brien, and you
Speaker 3: know he even spoke to misinformation, but didn't you know,
Speaker 3: elaborate on what it was or you know, how or
Speaker 3: why it's wrong. It's just like, hey, you've got our emails, addresses,
Speaker 3: phone numbers. We're here on this webinar. Like you can
Speaker 3: correct the record anytime, you know. It's uh, if you're
Speaker 3: worried about something that's not true and may may or
Speaker 3: may not influence people's votes, like you can do something
Speaker 3: about that. Like you you have a lot of money,
Speaker 3: you have you know, a comms team to use it.
Speaker 3: It's you know, just talk to your members like they're
Speaker 3: real people. Uh, you know, we can we can understand shit. Uh,
Speaker 3: you don't gotta just you know, get get angry or
Speaker 3: even kind of like I was saying earlier, where it's
Speaker 3: just like it's almost just like feels like this framing
Speaker 3: where anything you know that's a dissenting view or a
Speaker 3: critique you know, so oh, it's just it's almost information.
Speaker 3: Don't don't pay any attention to it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, which is you know, I don't know, like I
Speaker 1: I've seen this in a couple of I don't know,
Speaker 1: like just I've seen this in a couple of sort
Speaker 1: of union things we've coverled on this show. Is like,
Speaker 1: I don't know, and and an incredible unwillingness of union
Speaker 1: leadership to even like consider a position is not their
Speaker 1: own and to just sort of like immediately, you know,
Speaker 1: when confronted with another things just immediately attempt to completely
Speaker 1: delegitimate them. And that sucks. Yeah, it's just not a
Speaker 1: not a great way to run a union.
Speaker 2: No, no, you definitely you know.
Speaker 4: And I've been seeing this this uh this closing like
Speaker 4: sort of rank around around leadership, right, and it's not
Speaker 4: something that inspires trust in union leadership.
Speaker 2: Whatsoever. Right, Like, you know, you could be a member
Speaker 2: that you.
Speaker 4: Know doesn't understand something, just has a question and then
Speaker 4: you kind of getting and you kind of just.
Speaker 2: End up being stonewalled.
Speaker 4: And you know, you're told, well, you know, go to
Speaker 4: this meeting where we're going to explain things and dah
Speaker 4: da da da da da da da dah. And it's like, yeah,
Speaker 4: but you know, I have you on the phone, now,
Speaker 4: can you explain it now? And you know, and it's
Speaker 4: as it's like they're taking all of these concerns as
Speaker 4: a personal blow to their ego, right Like they're taking
Speaker 4: it personally, as if people having concerns about what this
Speaker 4: contract does and does not stipulate is like an attack
Speaker 4: on their moral character. And it's just really fucking frustrating.
Speaker 4: I gotta be real with you. And you know it
Speaker 4: doesn't say a lot for the overall democratic nature of
Speaker 4: the union either, right, Like you know this is like
Speaker 4: you know, you're kind of being told, well, you know,
Speaker 4: keep your opinions to yourself, accept our word for it.
Speaker 2: Like you can vote however you want.
Speaker 4: You know, this is one number one vote, but you
Speaker 4: know you can't be going online talking about it. You
Speaker 4: like can't be going talking to your coworkers about it
Speaker 4: because you don't have all the information, you're not understanding
Speaker 4: it correctly, and it's just like, well, can you get
Speaker 4: better at explaining it?
Speaker 2: Can you not react this way?
Speaker 4: Like can we have like a thing where like we
Speaker 4: can just like fucking talk about what's in it and
Speaker 4: what's not in it? And yeah, it's it's just again
Speaker 4: been real fucking frustrating.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. It's another thing I mean too, is you know,
Speaker 3: any contract language maybe it should either be more clear
Speaker 3: or concise, or if it's going to be more on
Speaker 3: the legal east side, you know, put out a little
Speaker 3: like contract like explainer guide maybe especially around key language
Speaker 3: or language that they know is maybe vague or going
Speaker 3: to cause you know, issues of like understanding it. And
Speaker 3: even you know, one one other thing about like you know,
Speaker 3: open bargaining was you know, looking at the ib T
Speaker 3: press release, you know there's one paragraph and it starts
Speaker 3: rank and final members served on the committee for the
Speaker 3: first time. It continues on later saying you know, our
Speaker 3: hard work has finally paid or our hard work has
Speaker 3: paid off, and you know, and goes on to them say,
Speaker 3: you know, this is the most historic contract we've ever had,
Speaker 3: so kind of seems like right there where it's like, well,
Speaker 3: if limited member participation found by NDA has led to
Speaker 3: this historic contract, maybe it's time to involve all of us.
Speaker 1: Yep.
Speaker 4: And also, you know, the rank and file that are
Speaker 4: on these committees are appointed by leadership, so we don't
Speaker 4: we don't get to choose who these people are. And
Speaker 4: it's like leadership absolutely just has the ability to be like, well,
Speaker 4: I'm gonna, you know, appoint the ones that I like
Speaker 4: the most, that I have the best relationship with, that
Speaker 4: I know thinks the sun kind of shines out of
Speaker 4: my ass. And yeah, there's just this absolutely overall lack
Speaker 4: of a democratic lack of a democratic internal culture. You know,
Speaker 4: we elect you know, our officers, most of them, but.
Speaker 2: We don't elect stewards.
Speaker 4: We don't really we don't elect our business agents or
Speaker 4: like anything like that. We vote on our contracts and
Speaker 4: that's it, you know, at our union meetings. I've had
Speaker 4: one union meeting where we did a vote that was
Speaker 4: introduced by leadership. Right, It's just it's, yeah, it's not
Speaker 4: the most democratic culture. And that's another thing that that
Speaker 4: needs to change as well.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I mean I think that goes back to
Speaker 1: a sort of like, you know, a fundamental political conflict,
Speaker 1: which is like, is democracy when you vote for someone
Speaker 1: else to make every decision? Or is democracy when people
Speaker 1: collectively make decisions themselves? And the sort of slipperydus of
Speaker 1: those two things causes you know, like causes you know,
Speaker 1: allows people who essentially want to be the only ones
Speaker 1: who ever get to make decisions to be able to
Speaker 1: claim that they are in favor of democracy or whatever.
Speaker 1: But you know mean like mean that they get to
Speaker 1: make all decisions after they get elected, and not mean
Speaker 1: actual people's make decisions for themselves.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yes, I need a more song who says it's
Speaker 3: more of a delegate role than a you know, representative.
Speaker 1: Okay, I guess, I guess my My final thing is
Speaker 1: I yeah, you you two are both encouraging are going
Speaker 1: to encourage people to vote no on this contract for it,
Speaker 1: the the the the surely long list of both technical, procedural,
Speaker 1: I material and like broadly social reasons.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's correct. I'll be Yeah, I'll be voting no
Speaker 3: and also advocating for that and also I mean just
Speaker 3: also advocating people to vote as well.
Speaker 4: Yes, big same on that low union participation and sends
Speaker 4: a bad message to the company. So definitely definitely doing
Speaker 4: both and continuing to have those conversations on the shop
Speaker 4: floors with folks explaining my concerns and stuff like that.
Speaker 4: But yeah, no, I'm I'm also going to be voting
Speaker 4: no on this contract as well.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so that is Yeah, I guess I guess that
Speaker 1: that that is our coverage of this. There is still
Speaker 1: time for there is still time for there to actually
Speaker 1: be a striker, for this contract to fail and for
Speaker 1: people to fight for a better one. And yeah, I
Speaker 1: wish both of you two good luck in fighting this
Speaker 1: and yeah, and thank you both for coming on.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, thanks so much for having us.
Speaker 4: I was excited to give you guys an update about
Speaker 4: all the crazy shit we talked about in the first episode.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm glad, glad, glad we've got.
Speaker 3: To talk about it a pleasure of being And yeah,
Speaker 3: appreciate the time.
Speaker 1: Yeah, do you do you have anything to plug before.
Speaker 3: You know, a yes or no vote. Solidarity all all
Speaker 3: workers and everyone on the shop floor. And you know,
Speaker 3: we'll got to keep on fighting for better conditions.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you too, dear listener, can fight for better
Speaker 1: conditions in your own workplace. And yeah, if one day,
Speaker 1: one day, fight for a world we don't have workplaces
Speaker 1: like this at all.
Speaker 3: Amen, hallelujah.
Speaker 2: It could Happen here as a production of cool Zone Media.
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Speaker 2: You can find sources for It could Happen Here, updated
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