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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly

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Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small

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Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions

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Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,

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Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or

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Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website

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Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you

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Speaker 1: love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is

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Speaker 1: not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with

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Speaker 1: a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much

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Speaker 1: for joining me for session three seventy nine of the

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Speaker 1: Me for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our

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Speaker 1: conversation after word from our sponsors.

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Speaker 2: Hi, I'm Someone Sonders and I'm on the Therapy for

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Speaker 2: Black Girl's podcast. I'm in session today unpacking domestic violence

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Speaker 2: and retraumatization.

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Speaker 1: Unfortunately, it feels like every day there's a new incident

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Speaker 1: of domestic abuse that happens to unfold all over our

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Speaker 1: social media timelines, and with it the potential to encounter

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Speaker 1: violent footage or hear various arguments in support of the abuser.

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Speaker 1: For survivors of domestic violence, it can be difficult to

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Speaker 1: avoid and then find ways to cope with being exposed

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Speaker 1: to such triggering content. Joining me today to discuss domestic

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Speaker 1: violence and retraumatization is registered social worker, therapist, content creator,

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Speaker 1: and speaker Simone Saunders. As the founder and director of

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Speaker 1: the Cognitive Corner, a culturally responsive and trauma informed group practice,

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Speaker 1: she's dedicated to fostering mental health awarners and destigmatizing mental

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Speaker 1: health issues within bipod communities. During our conversation, we discuss

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Speaker 1: what retraumatization means and how it manifests itself both mentally

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Speaker 1: and physically, how to practice social media self care when

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Speaker 1: a triggering incident hits your timeline, and changing the way

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Speaker 1: we discuss domestic violence to be more considerate of survivors.

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Speaker 1: If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please

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Speaker 1: share with us on social media using the hashtag tpg

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Speaker 1: in session or join us over in the Sister Circle

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Speaker 1: Let's talk more about the episode. You can join us

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Speaker 1: at community dot therapy for blackgirls dot com. Here's our conversation.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us today, Somone, Thank.

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Speaker 3: You for having me I'm so excited.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So, I know many people may know you from

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Speaker 1: TikTok and the work that you do sharing information about

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Speaker 1: mental health and your practice, But can you say a

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Speaker 1: little bit more about the work that you do.

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: Absolutely.

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Speaker 2: So I am from Great Alberta, Canada, and so I

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Speaker 2: have a group psychological practice here that's focused on trauma

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Speaker 2: informed and culturally responsive care. So we provide therapy throughout Canada,

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Speaker 2: and then on the social media side of things, I

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Speaker 2: provide a lot of psycho education about different topics and

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Speaker 2: just insight into therapy, being a therapist, all of that.

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Speaker 3: Kind of stuff.

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Speaker 1: Got it. So you mentioned a word that I would

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Speaker 1: love for us to dig a little bit more into.

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Speaker 1: So you said that your practice is trauma informed. What

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Speaker 1: does that mean when you say that?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so, I think it's just the outlook that regardless

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Speaker 2: of who we interact with, we have to understand that

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Speaker 2: this person may have encountered traumatic experiences in their life

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Speaker 2: and that is likely going to shape the way that

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Speaker 2: they show up in the world. And so from a

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Speaker 2: practice standpoint, we need to really understand, Okay, we need

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Speaker 2: to provide as much flexibility as we can. We need

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Speaker 2: to provide as much communication as we can. We need

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Speaker 2: to try and provide as stable of an environment as

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Speaker 2: we can in order to facilitate some of those pieces,

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Speaker 2: because that stability and security is really important for folks

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Speaker 2: who have endured trauma.

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Speaker 1: And can you say more about what that looks like

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Speaker 1: in practice.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So, for example, we recently moved office locations in January,

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Speaker 2: and so knowing that that was coming up, I made

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Speaker 2: sure that I sent out a lot of different email

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Speaker 2: reminders around Okay, we are moving and talking to my

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Speaker 2: clients in person and reminding them and processing this is

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Speaker 2: going to be our second last session or this is

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Speaker 2: our last session in this space. And so I got

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Speaker 2: feedback from different clients saying, like, I got so many

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Speaker 2: emails about you moving and stuff like that. And then

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Speaker 2: when we're actually in the space, for a lot of

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Speaker 2: people that are like, I didn't expect it to feel

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Speaker 2: the way that it felt. I didn't expect to feel

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Speaker 2: like I'm grieving the old office space.

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Speaker 3: Even with all.

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Speaker 2: The reminders and all of the sort of processing, that

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Speaker 2: still has an emotional impact. And so without those things,

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Speaker 2: I can imagine how that would have landed for a

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Speaker 2: lot of people.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so it's taking into account all of these things

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Speaker 1: that we may not think about on a conscious level,

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Speaker 1: but that can actually be really important for people who

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Speaker 1: have experienced trauma.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So someone, I wonder if you could say a

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Speaker 1: little bit about how you started making mental health information

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Speaker 1: for Tiktak.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So initially I started over on Instagram and it was

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Speaker 2: just psycho educational infographics and so I was on the

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Speaker 2: platform a little bit and decided to just take the

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Speaker 2: jump and start making videos. And so it did really

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Speaker 2: well initially when I first started, and I grew quite quickly.

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Speaker 2: The feedback that I've gotten is that it's nice to

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Speaker 2: be able to sort of break down some of the

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Speaker 2: mental health topics that I think there is often a

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Speaker 2: lot of clinical jargon that's associated with mental health topics

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Speaker 2: and makes it difficult for folks to understand if they're

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Speaker 2: not in the mental health field, and sometimes even if

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Speaker 2: you are in the mental health field. So I think

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Speaker 2: it's been nice for folks to really understand what could

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Speaker 2: be going on with them and also have a community

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Speaker 2: of people, whether it's in the comments or people stitching

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Speaker 2: the video or whatnot to say like, oh, I experienced

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Speaker 2: this too, and know that they're not alone in a

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Speaker 2: lot of those different experiences.

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Speaker 1: So one of your recent videos that we wanted to

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Speaker 1: talk more about was a video about retraumatization, and I

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Speaker 1: wonder if you could say what retraumatization is, and especially

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Speaker 1: Wooden means in the context of domestic violence.

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Speaker 2: So retraumatization is essentially when you're re exposed to whether

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Speaker 2: it's a situation that is similar to a trauma that

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Speaker 2: you've experienced or just triggers a lot of those sort

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Speaker 2: of emotional memories, and then you experience similar trauma symptoms

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Speaker 2: in that moment. As it relates to domestic violence, if

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Speaker 2: you've been through a violent relationship and say seeing violence

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Speaker 2: on social media or that being talked about, then that

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Speaker 2: can also trigger that for some people as well.

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Speaker 1: And can you talk about the mental and the physical

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Speaker 1: impact that somebody might experience as a results of retraumatization.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, so.

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Speaker 2: I think a lot of times when we think about trauma,

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Speaker 2: we don't necessarily think about the physiological impacts in the moment.

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Speaker 2: Some of the things that you might notice in your bodies,

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Speaker 2: maybe your temperature really goes up, maybe your heart starts

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Speaker 2: beating really fast, maybe you feel a little bit more

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Speaker 2: disconnected from your experience. Maybe it's more of an overwhelming

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Speaker 2: emotional experience, or you might be crying, you might feel

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Speaker 2: like you're having a panic attack, all of those different things.

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Speaker 2: So it's really taking your nervous system outside. It's what's

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Speaker 2: called window of tolerance, which is your state of regulation.

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Speaker 1: Got it. And when you think about the work that

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Speaker 1: you do aspectually with domestic violence survivors, what does it

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Speaker 1: look like to do that work from a trauma inform

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Speaker 1: place versus maybe other therapeutic approaches.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So I think, especially if we're speaking about domestic violence,

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Speaker 2: but just trauma generally, I think trauma has a profound

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Speaker 2: impact on relationships, and so the therapeutic relationship in any

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Speaker 2: context is really important. So I devote time to building

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Speaker 2: that sort of safety within the therapeutic relationship so that

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Speaker 2: we can explore some of these more vulnerable things. So

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Speaker 2: I think that period of time in the beginning especially

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Speaker 2: is really important to lay that foundation and then slowly

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Speaker 2: dipping our toes into the trauma and really understanding the

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Speaker 2: client's tolerance for some of those pieces and making sure

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Speaker 2: that you're never pushing too far, you're never crossing any

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Speaker 2: boundaries and that the client always feels like they have

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Speaker 2: autonomy and that experience.

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Speaker 1: So one can you say more about what it means

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Speaker 1: to be sure that you're not pushing too far, because

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Speaker 1: I don't know that everybody always understands what are we

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Speaker 1: assessing for as therapists to know, Okay, this is probably

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Speaker 1: not a line I want to cross.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So whenever I teach about the nervous system and

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Speaker 2: the window of tolerance, and again to clarify the window

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Speaker 2: of tolerance as start of your state we're able to

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Speaker 2: think and feel at the same time, you feel generally regulated.

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Speaker 2: So I think pushing them too far would be pushing

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Speaker 2: them way outside of their window of tolerance. And so

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Speaker 2: I think sometimes maybe from an outside perspective, if someone

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Speaker 2: is maybe like retelling a trauma story and they're extremely emotional,

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Speaker 2: that might on the outside look like, Okay, that's really cathartic.

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Speaker 2: That might be really good for them. But I think

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Speaker 2: as a therapist you really have to understand what is

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Speaker 2: helpful and are they going to process and integrate them

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Speaker 2: information or what is then re traumatizing because they're retelling

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Speaker 2: the story and they're re experiencing all of those symptoms

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Speaker 2: and they're feelings sort of like raw and opened up after.

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Speaker 1: What kind of work would you maybe do, Like if

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Speaker 1: you notice that happening with somebody, backtrack and get them

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Speaker 1: ready to be able to maybe approach that work at

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Speaker 1: some point in the future.

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Speaker 2: I think Number one, I try and call attention to

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Speaker 2: some of these things. So the way that I generally

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Speaker 2: work with clients is I like for it to be

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Speaker 2: really collaborative, So I always sort of tell them what

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Speaker 2: my plan is, what I'm doing in the very beginning

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Speaker 2: of working together. I'll let them know like, hey, you know,

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Speaker 2: I will always be curious about what's happening for you internally,

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Speaker 2: and I might ask you if I can share some

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Speaker 2: of the things that I notice. And so if I'm

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Speaker 2: noticing that, oh, I wonder if maybe they're starting to

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Speaker 2: get a little bit too dysregulated, I might point a

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Speaker 2: few things out, and before that, I might engage in

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Speaker 2: different grounding strategies that might be as simple as asking

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Speaker 2: them if they're thirsty, which allows them to come back too, Oh,

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Speaker 2: I need to understand am I thirsty?

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Speaker 3: Is my mouth dry?

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Speaker 2: And it allows them to come back to the present,

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Speaker 2: and eventually I'll explain this is some of the things

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Speaker 2: that I'm noticing, and it's a slower process of can

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Speaker 2: we di bertoe and how far can we di berteu?

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Speaker 2: And can we dip it a little bit further after

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Speaker 2: while still maintaining that sense of safety.

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Speaker 1: Got it?

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Speaker 3: Got it.

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Speaker 1: So one of the things that we talked about a

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Speaker 1: little bit, and I know you see this all online

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Speaker 1: is conversations around triggers and what if people do when

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Speaker 1: they're triggered. And so when you're working with clients who

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Speaker 1: experience retraumatization, do you typically advise them to avoid the

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Speaker 1: triggers entirely or typically are you giving them strategies to

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Speaker 1: cope with triggers.

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Speaker 2: I think that it really is dependent on the situation,

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Speaker 2: but I would say it's a little bit of both.

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Speaker 2: I don't think ultimately it's helpful to just completely avoid triggers,

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Speaker 2: but I think that if you know that you're in

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Speaker 2: quite a vulnerable state and something that is obviously going

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Speaker 2: to trigger you and put you into a shutdown or

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Speaker 2: something like that, then I would say maybe leave that.

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Speaker 2: But also I think it's important to prepare for triggers

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Speaker 2: because they can sometimes just come out of nowhere. So

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Speaker 2: if there's situations where you know that, Okay, this might

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Speaker 2: be triggering, but this is something I'm going to engage

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Speaker 2: in anyways, then how do we prepare for that? And

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Speaker 2: in other situations, does it feel helpful or do you

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Speaker 2: need to engage in this knowing that it might be triggering?

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Speaker 2: And if not, then that's also okay to take a

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Speaker 2: step back.

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Speaker 1: And I wonder if you could talk a little bit

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Speaker 1: about people's experience being online, because I know a lot

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Speaker 1: of times there will be some violent footage of police

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Speaker 1: brutality or other people's domestic violence situations, and you don't

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Speaker 1: maybe necessarily know that you're gonna come upon this. What

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Speaker 1: kinds of strategies would you suggest for people for how

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Speaker 1: they navigate these kinds of situations online.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, I agree.

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Speaker 2: I think that there's definitely a lot of stuff online

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Speaker 2: and we're exposed to more information than I think we

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Speaker 2: ever have, and so I always say practice social media

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Speaker 2: self care. And so if certain pages tend to post

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Speaker 2: a lot of these graphs things and that's something that

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Speaker 2: tends to be triggering for you, then I would say,

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Speaker 2: number one, maybe decide when you're actually going to access

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Speaker 2: that page rather than having it come up on your

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Speaker 2: news feed, so you can easily mute an account and

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Speaker 2: then decide okay. At this point in time, I feel

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Speaker 2: regulated enough to access and take a look through some

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Speaker 2: of these things, and I know what strategies I have

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Speaker 2: in order to help regulate myself in the event.

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Speaker 3: That I do get triggered.

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Speaker 2: And I think there's other times where you can't necessarily

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Speaker 2: control what kind of comes up on your news feed,

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Speaker 2: and I think in those instances, again, just having a

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Speaker 2: toolbox of strategies of okay, maybe I need to debrief

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Speaker 2: with a friend about this. Maybe I need to take

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Speaker 2: a little bit of a social media break. Maybe I

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Speaker 2: need to talk with my therapist about this. Maybe I

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Speaker 2: need to ground myself in some capacity.

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Speaker 1: I'm glad you shared that because that was my next question, like,

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Speaker 1: if you do encounter some of these videos that maybe

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Speaker 1: are activating for you, what kinds of things can you

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Speaker 1: do to take care of yourself in the aftermath. So

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Speaker 1: you've talked about maybe talking with a therapist, talking with

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Speaker 1: a friend, other other things you would suggest.

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Speaker 2: What I do notice from some folks is that there

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Speaker 2: can be an inclination to continually expose yourself. So if

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Speaker 2: you notice one story or one real or whatever it

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Speaker 2: might be, of a specific incident and then sort of

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Speaker 2: going down the rabbit hole, not knowing that that's just

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Speaker 2: activating you further. And so I think the general practice

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Speaker 2: of checking in with yourself is also really helpful to

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Speaker 2: know where am I at with this? And Okay, I

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Speaker 2: just watched something that was a little bit activating. Is

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Speaker 2: it to the point where, even though I want to

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Speaker 2: look into more information about that, would that be helpful?

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Speaker 2: Do I need to take a step back and take

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Speaker 2: a break. And so I think really checking in into

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Speaker 2: tuning with yourself as far as where you're at is

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Speaker 2: helpful as well.

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Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break, But first, a

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Speaker 1: quick snippet of what's coming next week on TVG. So.

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Speaker 4: I'm studying their voice. I'm studying their breathing patterns. I'm

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Speaker 4: studying whether or not they use longer short sentences. I'm

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Speaker 4: studying whether they're clever and witty or whether they're polished

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Speaker 4: and professional, whether they're the you or the girlfriend next door?

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Speaker 4: Are there any unique phases or jokes that your audience

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Speaker 4: knows is related directed to you?

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Speaker 3: And then from.

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Speaker 4: There we produce the document and the best part is

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Speaker 4: actually watching the client execute, whether it's the speech on

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Speaker 4: a stage, whether it's the book tour that they start

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Speaker 4: or launch, whether it's the published article, whether it's on

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Speaker 4: the personal blog or LinkedIn or a big publication. I'm

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Speaker 4: in the business of making dreams contrue and that's what

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Speaker 4: really makes me happy.

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Speaker 1: And what kinds of things might we've been able to

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Speaker 1: do as a friend or a loved one for somebody

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Speaker 1: who maybe has been triggered by either something they saw

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Speaker 1: online or in another place. What kinds of support can

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Speaker 1: we offer?

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Speaker 2: I think often just being a listening air and empathizing

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Speaker 2: and validating what has happened for the person can be

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Speaker 2: really helpful. I think that if you're in person, sometimes

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Speaker 2: like physical touch can be really grounding, sometimes just like

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Speaker 2: the physical presence of another person. So I think really,

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Speaker 2: when we tend to get triggered, then what we really

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Speaker 2: are needing is that safety and stability to come back

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Speaker 2: to again. And so if our friend or a family member,

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Speaker 2: whoever it is, can be that person just to provide

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Speaker 2: that safety and stability, then a lot of times people

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Speaker 2: are able to come back down.

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Speaker 1: So well, can you talk a little bit more about

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Speaker 1: trigger warnings because I think that is something that we

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Speaker 1: have begun to see in the past couple of years, right,

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Speaker 1: like information about what you're going to watch in a

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Speaker 1: video before you maybe play it. Can you talk a

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Speaker 1: little bit about why those kinds of warnings are important.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's important because we see so much

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Speaker 2: on social media, We consume so much, and I think

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Speaker 2: social media in a sense has desensitized us a little

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Speaker 2: bit to a lot of the things that are going

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Speaker 2: on in the world. And because we consume so much information,

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Speaker 2: and I think sometimes it can feel normal to come

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Speaker 2: across things like violence, whether it's violence and a political landscape,

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Speaker 2: violence within relationships and family. And so I think that

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Speaker 2: trigger warnings really help people navigating social media and take

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Speaker 2: that break to decide, Okay, knowing that this might be triggering,

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Speaker 2: do I want to go forth and still watch this video?

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Speaker 2: And it gives them that pause rather than unknowingly coming

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Speaker 2: across us feeling triggered, feeling activated, and then so you're

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Speaker 2: sort of left to clean that up.

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Speaker 1: You know. One case someone that I know you've talked

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Speaker 1: about that was all over people's timelines was Meg the

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Speaker 1: Stallion's case with Tory Lane's right. So there was all

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Speaker 1: this evidence about him shooting her, and yet there was

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Speaker 1: still a lot of support. Did this really happen? And

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Speaker 1: would did she kind of thing?

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Speaker 3: Right?

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Speaker 1: And I think for a lot of people, especially for

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Speaker 1: a lot of black women, that was very activating right

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Speaker 1: to see people so vehemently continue to support him even

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Speaker 1: in the face of like very clear evidence. I wonder

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Speaker 1: if you could say a little bit about out one, like,

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Speaker 1: how do you take care of yourself if you are

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Speaker 1: somebody who has experienced a domestic violence kind of situation,

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Speaker 1: And how do you like navigate conversations either online or

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Speaker 1: in real life, especially if maybe a lot of people

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Speaker 1: don't even know that something like this has happened to you.

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Speaker 2: Number one, having safe people, whether that is a professional

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Speaker 2: or family, friends, partner, but navigating that in a way

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Speaker 2: of understanding that, I think.

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Speaker 3: A lot of grief comes up.

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Speaker 2: So speaking about that incidance specifically, I think one of

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Speaker 2: the most difficult things for black women watching that was

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Speaker 2: the grief of the black woman experience not necessarily being

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Speaker 2: believed or downplayed or ridiculed, made fun of, all of

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Speaker 2: those different things. And I think whether or not you

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Speaker 2: have actually had experience with domestic violence or violence in

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Speaker 2: that way, I think a lot of people can relate

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Speaker 2: to the feeling of not being heard, being ridiculed, being

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Speaker 2: passed by, and all those different things. So I think

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Speaker 2: number one, having sort of a safe space safe relationships

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Speaker 2: can be really helpful. I think also talking about these

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Speaker 2: things with other people, and you don't necessarily have to

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Speaker 2: share your own experience, but you can talk about these

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Speaker 2: things with other people and get ideas around what are

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Speaker 2: other people's thoughts and debrief with other people without saying

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Speaker 2: I've also experienced this, because I think sometimes that can

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Speaker 2: also be really helpful, just to talk to other people

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Speaker 2: who may or may not have had the same experience,

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Speaker 2: but still validating and empathetic around it.

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Speaker 1: M Yeah, I'm really glad that you mentioned that, because

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Speaker 1: I do think the grief piece around what it means

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Speaker 1: to be a black woman in this country, I think

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Speaker 1: was very triggering for a lot of people that there

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Speaker 1: are so many experiences we have where people don't believe

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Speaker 1: us or don't support us. So I'm really glad you

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Speaker 1: called attention to that.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, I want to talk.

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Speaker 1: A little bit more about domestic violence in particular because

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Speaker 1: I think something that happens for a lot of people

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Speaker 1: is that there is this confusion about Okay, if you

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Speaker 1: find yourself in a situation that's abusive and you don't

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Speaker 1: immediately exit, like what's going on? There are all these questions,

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Speaker 1: and so I wonder if you could talk about, like,

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Speaker 1: how do we undo that pattern of thinking and maybe

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Speaker 1: show more compassion to people who find themselves in these situations.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that a lot of people. From an

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Speaker 2: external perspective, I think it's very easy to say, if

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Speaker 2: someone treats you like that, just leave, But I think

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Speaker 2: that the nuance of that conversation is missed. I would

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Speaker 2: say at least a good eighty percent of the time

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Speaker 2: that typically it's not always just violence, right, There's these

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Speaker 2: double sided relationships where that person might experience a lot

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Speaker 2: of love, a lot of care, a lot of affection,

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Speaker 2: all of these different things, and also be experiencing violence,

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Speaker 2: which makes it really hard to actually leave the relationship.

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Speaker 2: There might be other pieces where there might be financial dependence,

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Speaker 2: or there might be children involved, there might be family relationships.

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Speaker 2: There's a lot of different things that could be going

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Speaker 2: on within the relationship in addition to the violence that

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Speaker 2: makes it really, really difficult to actually decide to leave

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Speaker 2: that relationship. So I think that knowing all of those

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Speaker 2: pieces gets really importance that we give compassion to people around.

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Speaker 2: It's not easy. Nobody wants to be in a relationship

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Speaker 2: where they're being hurt. Generally, no one would actively choose

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Speaker 2: that if they could make a confident decision and say

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Speaker 2: I'm going to leave and I'm going to walk away

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Speaker 2: from this and never go back. And so generally people

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Speaker 2: need that support from their external family, friends and loved

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Speaker 2: ones in order to feel confident enough to say, Okay,

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Speaker 2: I have the support in order to walk away.

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Speaker 3: I have the support in order to make my decisions.

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Speaker 1: I'm glad you mentioned this about family and friends, because

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Speaker 1: I do think all the research talks about the importance

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Speaker 1: of your support system, especially when you are in an

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Speaker 1: abusive situation. And we know sometimes family and friends can

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Speaker 1: make really ill informed, derogatory sometimes comments that really lead

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Speaker 1: you to further feel isolated. What kinds of boundaries or

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Speaker 1: strategies would you suggest for somebody who maybe is in

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Speaker 1: an abusive situation or a violent situation about how to

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Speaker 1: protect themselves and their mental health if family and friends

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Speaker 1: are making those kinds of comments.

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Speaker 2: I would say having some open and honest conversations, because

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Speaker 2: I think where I try and balance is we never

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Speaker 2: want that person to be isolated who's in the relationship.

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Speaker 2: And so I think when family and friends are making

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Speaker 2: these comments, it can be easy to say like, Okay,

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Speaker 2: I'm done with them, I don't want to talk to

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Speaker 2: them anymore. But on the same hand, being isolated within

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Speaker 2: the relationship often makes that situation much worse. And so

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Speaker 2: I think having these conversations around I can understand why

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Speaker 2: you might be angry, why you might be upset, why

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Speaker 2: you might feel hurt for me, and all of these

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Speaker 2: different things, And here's how you can best support me.

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Speaker 2: And here's where I am, and sort of collaborating with

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Speaker 2: your family and friends around I might not be ready

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Speaker 2: to lead this relationship, and so what does that mean

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Speaker 2: as far as our relationships? How can we still collaborate

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Speaker 2: on a relationship that feels supportive and authentic to the

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Speaker 2: both of us while also still having a relationship.

443
00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:57,679
Speaker 1: And you know, thing with the support piece for a

444
00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:01,720
Speaker 1: little bit in connecting it to our earlier conversation around retraumatization,

445
00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:07,600
Speaker 1: how do you effectively support a friend without invoking some

446
00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:11,320
Speaker 1: of this retraumatization, So is it typically good to ask

447
00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:14,080
Speaker 1: a bunch of questions about what's happening, like what's the

448
00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:16,320
Speaker 1: line there for somebody who is not trained as a

449
00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:20,560
Speaker 1: therapist right around how to offer support without retraumatizing someone.

450
00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:24,239
Speaker 2: I always take this perspective of just being curious and

451
00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:26,879
Speaker 2: sort of letting the person laid at first. So I

452
00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:29,280
Speaker 2: think it also depends on sort of the relationship that

453
00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:31,240
Speaker 2: you have with that person, and the closer you are,

454
00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:32,920
Speaker 2: you might be able to read them a little bit better.

455
00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:35,760
Speaker 2: And so you can just ask them generally like what

456
00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:38,159
Speaker 2: has your experience been in this relationship or what has

457
00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:41,480
Speaker 2: your experience been with the violence that this person has

458
00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:43,960
Speaker 2: inflicted on you? And they can share as much or

459
00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:46,480
Speaker 2: as little as they want. And I think in a

460
00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:50,680
Speaker 2: situation where maybe it's less emotionally intense, having those conversations

461
00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:54,080
Speaker 2: of what's helpful for you as far as me supporting you.

462
00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:56,000
Speaker 2: Do you want me to ask a lot of questions?

463
00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:58,280
Speaker 2: Do you want to share a lot of these things?

464
00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:00,760
Speaker 2: Is it just helpful for me to let you take

465
00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:03,560
Speaker 2: the lead? And I think once the motions have settled,

466
00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:06,520
Speaker 2: if it's an active abuse situation, then it can be

467
00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:09,960
Speaker 2: helpful to navigate those conversations based off what that other

468
00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:11,200
Speaker 2: person really needs.

469
00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:23,640
Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break. I know one

470
00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:25,800
Speaker 1: thing that we often turn to, I think, to try

471
00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:28,520
Speaker 1: to make sense of our own experience is media. So,

472
00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:29,280
Speaker 1: whether there be.

473
00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:31,360
Speaker 3: Movies or videos and.

474
00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:34,720
Speaker 1: TV shows, would it be helpful for somebody who is

475
00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:38,560
Speaker 1: a victim or survivor of domestic violence to consume media

476
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:41,520
Speaker 1: that depicts these same kinds of images. Would you say

477
00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:44,159
Speaker 1: that it's ever healing to be able to consume that

478
00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:44,960
Speaker 1: kind of content.

479
00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:49,000
Speaker 2: I think, Number one, it depends on the nature of

480
00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:53,040
Speaker 2: the media and where that storyline goes. Generally, I find

481
00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:58,320
Speaker 2: that for folks who've been in abusive relationships that it's

482
00:23:58,640 --> 00:23:59,800
Speaker 2: not often helpful.

483
00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:02,119
Speaker 3: I think consuming media.

484
00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:04,320
Speaker 2: Whether it's TikTok or Instagram of other people who have

485
00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:08,040
Speaker 2: been in abusive relationships and them sharing their stories and

486
00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:10,679
Speaker 2: how they have felt and all those things, I think

487
00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:14,040
Speaker 2: that has often been helpful for other people to feel

488
00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:16,719
Speaker 2: like they can relate to another person and really understand

489
00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:18,760
Speaker 2: sort of the steps that they might have taken, or

490
00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:22,280
Speaker 2: the mistakes that they feel like they've made, or whatnot.

491
00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:25,800
Speaker 2: But generally, I would say whether it's movies or TV.

492
00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:31,000
Speaker 2: I think abuse or abuse adjacent relationships can often be romanticized,

493
00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:33,320
Speaker 2: and so I often don't find that to be the

494
00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:34,440
Speaker 2: most helpful resource.

495
00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:37,080
Speaker 1: I wonder if you can talk a little bit about

496
00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:41,760
Speaker 1: maybe some healthier images of relationships that you've seen, either

497
00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:44,520
Speaker 1: in pop culture in media that people might turn to

498
00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:47,600
Speaker 1: instead of maybe once that are kind of abuse or

499
00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:48,400
Speaker 1: abuse adjacent.

500
00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:51,439
Speaker 2: The first sort of thing that pops into my mind

501
00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:56,640
Speaker 2: is the TV series This Is Us. I think that series,

502
00:24:56,840 --> 00:25:01,880
Speaker 2: I found depicted real relationships in a really authentic way

503
00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:04,639
Speaker 2: and family conflict and all of that kind of stuff,

504
00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:09,119
Speaker 2: because I think that, especially in a therapeutic sense, we

505
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:11,359
Speaker 2: can easily say this is sort of the things that

506
00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:13,119
Speaker 2: you need to say in order to set boundaries, and

507
00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:14,720
Speaker 2: this is exactly how it's going to go, and it

508
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:16,840
Speaker 2: sometimes feels like it's all going to be tied up

509
00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:19,119
Speaker 2: in a neat bow, and that's just not really the

510
00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:21,159
Speaker 2: reality of the human experience.

511
00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:23,360
Speaker 3: And so I found that show to be really good

512
00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:24,760
Speaker 3: because it.

513
00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:27,960
Speaker 1: Does feel like there's often like a tendency to feel

514
00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:33,600
Speaker 1: very interested in couples that are not necessarily those healthy depictions.

515
00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:38,000
Speaker 1: So something that comes to mind is Krishan in blue face, right,

516
00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:41,800
Speaker 1: So it feels like there's always something going on. I

517
00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:43,520
Speaker 1: wonder if you could talk a little bit about like

518
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:46,280
Speaker 1: our tendency to maybe gravitate towards those things and be

519
00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:49,720
Speaker 1: really interested in like those kinds of conversations and content.

520
00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:53,919
Speaker 2: I think it's interesting for the human experience, right. I

521
00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:57,280
Speaker 2: think because of the extreme highs and the extreme lows,

522
00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:01,560
Speaker 2: it makes really good TV, right, because it's exciting for people.

523
00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:04,879
Speaker 2: But I think a lot of times we don't necessarily

524
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:08,359
Speaker 2: recognize that these are actually people's lives and this is

525
00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:12,600
Speaker 2: actual abuse that we're watching, and we're sensationalizing it.

526
00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:13,680
Speaker 3: I agree.

527
00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:16,280
Speaker 2: I think that there is a lot of content of

528
00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:20,359
Speaker 2: these extreme high and extreme low relationships that people just

529
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:22,879
Speaker 2: take their popcorn and they're like, Okay, this is the

530
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 2: best content.

531
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:27,199
Speaker 1: Yeah. That does feel like one of the downsides to

532
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:31,040
Speaker 1: social media and how easy it is for anybody really

533
00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:34,400
Speaker 1: to make content, because I think we do get desensitized

534
00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:37,119
Speaker 1: and think that we're actually watching like entertainment as opposed

535
00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:40,120
Speaker 1: to people's actual lives and their real consequences.

536
00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:45,760
Speaker 2: And I think that quote unquote, healthier relationships don't necessarily

537
00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:49,720
Speaker 2: make the most interesting content because people want to see

538
00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:51,679
Speaker 2: the drama. They want to be excited and all that

539
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:54,160
Speaker 2: kind of stuff. So I think even if we look

540
00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:56,639
Speaker 2: at dating TV shows all of that kind of stuff,

541
00:26:56,680 --> 00:26:59,399
Speaker 2: sometimes we might cheer for the couple that has healthy

542
00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:02,280
Speaker 2: communication and all of that kind of stuff. But generally

543
00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:03,879
Speaker 2: a lot of people tune in because they want to

544
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:04,840
Speaker 2: see the highs and the lows.

545
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:06,320
Speaker 3: They want to see a lot of the toxicity.

546
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:08,600
Speaker 1: Do you think it's the case that many of us

547
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:11,760
Speaker 1: may be over identifying with what we see on social

548
00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:14,639
Speaker 1: media in terms of relationships, and if so, then can

549
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:16,560
Speaker 1: you talk about some of the impact that might have

550
00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:17,840
Speaker 1: on our actual lives.

551
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:24,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that because healthy communication, mental health, all

552
00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:26,160
Speaker 2: of that kind of stuff has gained a lot more

553
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:29,280
Speaker 2: traction throughout the last decade than it ever has, a

554
00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:32,080
Speaker 2: lot of people are recognizing, oh wow, like I've been

555
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:36,000
Speaker 2: in situations that might have been abusive, or might be

556
00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:38,800
Speaker 2: abuse adjacent, or I might have acted in ways that

557
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:42,160
Speaker 2: we're abusive. And so I think it's easy to see

558
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:44,680
Speaker 2: ourselves in a lot of these different relationships or a

559
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:48,199
Speaker 2: lot of these different content. And again, I think it

560
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:51,840
Speaker 2: can be often romanticized as well, like the excitement of

561
00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:54,800
Speaker 2: the high highs and the quote unquote passion of the

562
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:58,560
Speaker 2: low lows. And so I think that it's easy for

563
00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:02,280
Speaker 2: us to say, Okay, that's what a real passionate relationship

564
00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:04,840
Speaker 2: is is if you love each other more than anything

565
00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:07,600
Speaker 2: and also hate each other more than anything. But really

566
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:10,440
Speaker 2: we want that consistency for our nervous system's sake.

567
00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:12,600
Speaker 1: So something you just said someone made me think of.

568
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:15,760
Speaker 1: I do think like the mental health information that's out

569
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:18,960
Speaker 1: it does help people to recognize like, oh, maybe that's

570
00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:22,359
Speaker 1: my experience or maybe I was a perpetrator in some

571
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:25,040
Speaker 1: of these kinds of situations. How might you work with

572
00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:28,360
Speaker 1: a client who realizes, maybe after watching something online, that

573
00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:32,560
Speaker 1: maybe previous relationships they've been in actually have been abusive,

574
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:34,440
Speaker 1: Like what kinds of steps would you take with them

575
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:36,800
Speaker 1: to maybe help them unlearn some of those maybe to

576
00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:39,360
Speaker 1: be able to spot red flags sooner? Can you say

577
00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:40,720
Speaker 1: a little bit about how you might work with a

578
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:41,360
Speaker 1: client like that.

579
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:45,040
Speaker 2: I always come at it from an angle of what

580
00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:48,560
Speaker 2: sort of felt comfortable or familiar in that dynamic. And

581
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:53,160
Speaker 2: so in these relationships, whether they're hurtful or not, a

582
00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:56,880
Speaker 2: lot of times there can be a sense of familiarity,

583
00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:59,640
Speaker 2: and that familiarity could come from childhood, that could come

584
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:02,960
Speaker 2: from consuming media, could come from a lot of different places.

585
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:06,680
Speaker 2: And so if that familiarity might be, for example, that

586
00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:10,120
Speaker 2: I've learned really good relationships have those high highs and

587
00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:13,560
Speaker 2: extremely low lows, then how do we unlearn that and

588
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:17,160
Speaker 2: how do we navigate towards what you might feel like

589
00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:20,160
Speaker 2: is a boring relationship, which actually might be something that

590
00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:23,800
Speaker 2: is consistent. And if you are the person who sort

591
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:27,360
Speaker 2: of was a perpetrator of some of those things, understanding

592
00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:29,800
Speaker 2: where does that come from for you? How can you

593
00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:34,440
Speaker 2: tap into your own emotional experience to understand when is

594
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:37,160
Speaker 2: your breaking point, When is your point where you need

595
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:39,080
Speaker 2: to maybe walk away, Where is your point where you

596
00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:41,280
Speaker 2: feel like you can't communicate effectively.

597
00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:44,680
Speaker 1: I know there's been lots of ongoing conversation around the

598
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:48,600
Speaker 1: usage of terms like victim versus survivor. I wonder if

599
00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:50,800
Speaker 1: you could share a little bit about your thoughts around

600
00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:53,400
Speaker 1: that language and when it's appropriate to use either.

601
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:58,000
Speaker 2: I think that different people have different preferences for either language.

602
00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:00,680
Speaker 2: I think that what I have found is that survivor

603
00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:04,840
Speaker 2: often feels more empowering for folks than victim does. But again,

604
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:07,960
Speaker 2: I think everybody has different sort of perspectives on how

605
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:10,080
Speaker 2: they would like to label their experience. But I've found

606
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:12,960
Speaker 2: in my experience that survivor tends to feel more empowering

607
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:15,120
Speaker 2: and feel a little bit more actionable.

608
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:16,840
Speaker 3: Got it? Got it?

609
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:18,640
Speaker 1: Well, someone, I'm so glad that you were able to

610
00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:20,680
Speaker 1: spend some time with us today sharing all of this.

611
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:23,680
Speaker 1: Please let us know where we can stay connected with you.

612
00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:25,920
Speaker 1: What is your website as well as any social media

613
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 1: handles you'd like to share?

614
00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:31,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, so my website is www dot the Cognitive Corner

615
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:33,600
Speaker 2: dot ca, and then all of my social media handles

616
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:35,200
Speaker 2: are at the Cognitive Corner.

617
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:37,800
Speaker 3: Perfect.

618
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:41,080
Speaker 1: I'm so glad someone was able to join us for

619
00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:44,040
Speaker 1: this conversation. To learn more about her and the work

620
00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:47,080
Speaker 1: she's doing, visit the show notes at Therapy for Blackgirls

621
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:50,400
Speaker 1: dot com slash Session three seventy nine, and don't forget

622
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:52,440
Speaker 1: to text this episodes to two of your girls right

623
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:55,320
Speaker 1: now and tell them to check it out. If you're

624
00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:58,240
Speaker 1: looking for a therapist in your area, visit our therapist

625
00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:01,560
Speaker 1: directory at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash directory.

626
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:04,479
Speaker 1: And if you want to continue digging into this topic

627
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:07,440
Speaker 1: or just be in community with other sisters, come on

628
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:09,960
Speaker 1: over and join us in the Sister Circle. It's our

629
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:12,480
Speaker 1: cozy corner of the Internet designed just for Black women.

630
00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:15,760
Speaker 1: You can join us at Community dot Therapy for blackgirls

631
00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:19,520
Speaker 1: dot com. This episode was produced by Alice Ellis and

632
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:24,520
Speaker 1: Zaria Taylor. Editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all

633
00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:27,080
Speaker 1: so much for joining me again this week. I look

634
00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:30,120
Speaker 1: forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon.

635
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:31,520
Speaker 1: Take good care,