1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:27,840 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of I Heart Radio. Welcome 2 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:32,560 Speaker 1: to the show Ridiculous Historians. Here's hoping today's episode finds 3 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:36,400 Speaker 1: you well, in good health, and not being beguiled by 4 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:42,000 Speaker 1: con artist flim flam Folks. Confidence men. My name is Ben, 5 00:00:42,520 --> 00:00:47,000 Speaker 1: trustee co host Noel is on the road. But don't worry. 6 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:50,120 Speaker 1: You won't have to listen to me monologue at Casey 7 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:54,360 Speaker 1: for thirty minutes because today we are joined again by 8 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:58,240 Speaker 1: one of our long time favorite guest on the show, 9 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:02,640 Speaker 1: our former Reese Search associate and now executive producer at 10 00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:08,600 Speaker 1: I Heart Media, Christopher Hasiotis. Hello, Ben, Hello, everyone, Hello, 11 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:14,280 Speaker 1: Casey Hello Hello. And that's our super producer Casey Pegrum Christopher. 12 00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:17,360 Speaker 1: It is I always say this, nos mean it is 13 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:21,000 Speaker 1: a pleasure to join forces with you on the show again. Today. 14 00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:24,399 Speaker 1: I should point out that I was promised cookies. There 15 00:01:24,440 --> 00:01:27,319 Speaker 1: was a trail of cookies leading from my desk to this, uh, 16 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:30,280 Speaker 1: this recording booth here. Yeah, I don't see any cookies. 17 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:36,560 Speaker 1: I feel like I was conned. Well, uh, you were 18 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:40,440 Speaker 1: not entirely bamboozled here, my friends, because if you look 19 00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:44,320 Speaker 1: at the fine print of that contract, it's more like 20 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 1: your promise the pursuit of cookies. Ben, all I can 21 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:50,520 Speaker 1: say right now and listeners, I plead with you, the 22 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:52,920 Speaker 1: door is locked. I can't get out of this studio. 23 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:55,760 Speaker 1: So I've got the pleasure of sitting here with Ben 24 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:58,240 Speaker 1: and chatting about what I seem to be called back 25 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:02,840 Speaker 1: for with some relative frequency con artists. Yeah, that's absolutely right. 26 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:08,240 Speaker 1: We didn't start out planning to do so many episodes 27 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:12,440 Speaker 1: about scams and con artists, but it turns out that 28 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:17,720 Speaker 1: this ridiculous history of human civilization is lousy with con artists, 29 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:22,640 Speaker 1: some who are hilariously bad, some who are unbelievably lucky, 30 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:27,280 Speaker 1: and a small few who for quite a while seemed 31 00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:32,760 Speaker 1: to get away scott free. Today is also sort of 32 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:36,360 Speaker 1: our Iowa episode. I don't know if we checked in 33 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:39,679 Speaker 1: with you about this man, but we're still on our 34 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:44,240 Speaker 1: crazy suf John Stevens esque quest to do an episode 35 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:47,360 Speaker 1: for every state in the United States. I encourage your endeavor, 36 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:49,520 Speaker 1: I I say, stick with it. Yeah, well, we're already 37 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:51,519 Speaker 1: way ahead of Soufia. Well, the last time we talked 38 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:53,560 Speaker 1: about that and it came up was we were talking 39 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:57,760 Speaker 1: about George Washington and speaking of scams, you tried to 40 00:02:57,800 --> 00:02:59,800 Speaker 1: pull one over on the listeners if I remember correctly 41 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:03,520 Speaker 1: by saying that talking about George Washington counted as a 42 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:08,480 Speaker 1: Washington State episode, to which I then and now objected 43 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:13,639 Speaker 1: and object Yes, the motion carries I find that sustained. 44 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:15,680 Speaker 1: What what would you say, Casey? Is that too much 45 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:17,640 Speaker 1: of a scam? It's a little bit of scam. Yeah, 46 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:20,720 Speaker 1: I'm gonna give it. Um, I don't know five pinocchios 47 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:23,440 Speaker 1: or whatever dumb rating people would use for a scam. 48 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:25,000 Speaker 1: This is your show, and I am but a warm 49 00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 1: body and a warm voice, Casey on the case. Uh 50 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:32,760 Speaker 1: it is it is Casey's show. Thanks. I'm also locked 51 00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:37,440 Speaker 1: in here. But today's show takes us in a way 52 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:42,520 Speaker 1: to Iowa. But before we get to Iowa, we have 53 00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 1: to introduce you to someone who is who must be 54 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:49,680 Speaker 1: at least vaguely familiar to many of us listening today, 55 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:56,040 Speaker 1: and that is sir Francis Drake. Right, Um, how would 56 00:03:56,080 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 1: you describe him? Ben? Would you say? He's a a sailor, 57 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:07,040 Speaker 1: man of the high seas, hero, a pirate, a privateer, uh, 58 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 1: a slave trader, a human trafficker. Yeah, Francis Drake is 59 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 1: one of those historical figures who has not aged well 60 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 1: because growing up, especially in the West, a lot of 61 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:24,200 Speaker 1: school children were taught, let's say, the sanitized version of 62 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:28,040 Speaker 1: this guy's story. And he did impressive things. He's got 63 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:32,800 Speaker 1: a lot of accolades. He accomplished things. Yes, yeah, he 64 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 1: was the second person ever to circumnavigate the globe, the 65 00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:39,880 Speaker 1: first Englishman for whatever that counts for. That's big, that's 66 00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:42,839 Speaker 1: a big deal with the English. And he also had 67 00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:47,400 Speaker 1: the approval of the Queen as far as his privateering 68 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:52,040 Speaker 1: and his piracy went. She was completely, you know, fine 69 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:57,640 Speaker 1: with his activities. He wasn't in his time in his country, 70 00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:02,360 Speaker 1: he was not considered a criminal. However, of course the 71 00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:06,799 Speaker 1: Spanish hated him. Well, he wasn't considered a criminal because basically, 72 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:09,479 Speaker 1: you know, it's one of those technicalities. If you don't 73 00:05:09,480 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 1: make something a crime, you're not a criminal. If you 74 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:15,400 Speaker 1: if you produce results, people can ignore the way you 75 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:17,679 Speaker 1: got those results. And that's definitely the case with Francis 76 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:20,880 Speaker 1: Drake and a lot of the privateers who were active 77 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 1: in the eighteenth and nineteenth century. Absolutely he was differentiated 78 00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:30,640 Speaker 1: from you know, your independent mom and pop piracy business 79 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:37,000 Speaker 1: by the commission from Queen Elizabeth. And when privateers received 80 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:39,800 Speaker 1: this sort of well, they were called letters of mark. 81 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:44,279 Speaker 1: When privateers received one of these things, it was fairly specific, 82 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:49,320 Speaker 1: described where and when he could operate and against whom. 83 00:05:49,839 --> 00:05:53,520 Speaker 1: So he was given the green light to prey on 84 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:56,920 Speaker 1: Spanish galleons. And by the time he was twenty talked 85 00:05:56,920 --> 00:05:59,920 Speaker 1: about an early start, he was deep in the privateering game. 86 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 1: Francis Drake looted a lot of Spanish gold. And I'll 87 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:09,760 Speaker 1: interrupt you please, Spanish gold is a bit of a 88 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:12,479 Speaker 1: misnomer as well, right, So the Spanish gold, it's not 89 00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:15,479 Speaker 1: like the Spanish just had the gold or made the gold. 90 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:18,160 Speaker 1: So the Spanish came to the America's or what would 91 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:21,800 Speaker 1: become called the America's and uh, you know, it took 92 00:06:21,839 --> 00:06:26,360 Speaker 1: gold that they found there. They you know, they took 93 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:30,279 Speaker 1: the gold from native populations, um, from those communities, and 94 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:32,600 Speaker 1: we're taking it back to Spain. It was in Spanish 95 00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:34,800 Speaker 1: possession at the time. But I think a lot of 96 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:38,200 Speaker 1: the way that we've talked about history, especially pirate history, 97 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:40,640 Speaker 1: and sort of this this romantic notion of the Caribbean 98 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:43,240 Speaker 1: and the back and forth between the continents. You know, 99 00:06:43,279 --> 00:06:45,440 Speaker 1: we talked about the British, we talked about English, we 100 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:48,719 Speaker 1: talked about the Spanish Portuguese to a certain extent, and 101 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:51,800 Speaker 1: and their gold. But it was only Spanish because the 102 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:55,760 Speaker 1: Spanish took it right. And that is a very good point, 103 00:06:55,880 --> 00:06:58,599 Speaker 1: because when you look at it that way, which is 104 00:06:58,640 --> 00:07:01,760 Speaker 1: the most accurate way to look at the sequence of events, 105 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:07,840 Speaker 1: Francis Drake was stealing goods that had already been stolen, right, 106 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:12,800 Speaker 1: and it just had this, uh, this thin veneer of legality. 107 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:16,200 Speaker 1: And one thing we know about this, regardless of the 108 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:21,600 Speaker 1: distinctions the rationalizations tossed about during the course of Drake's career, 109 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:27,560 Speaker 1: he died a very very well off dude. He was 110 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:34,760 Speaker 1: enormously successful stealing this stolen gold, and people also thought 111 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:37,400 Speaker 1: this is the key part of his life for our purposes. 112 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:43,360 Speaker 1: People also thought that Francis Drake had stashed away some 113 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:46,800 Speaker 1: some treasure trove, you know, that he had, in addition 114 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:52,280 Speaker 1: to his known earnings and his known you know, possessions 115 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:56,320 Speaker 1: in his estate, that he had somewhere else, somewhere in 116 00:07:56,360 --> 00:08:02,600 Speaker 1: the world, hidden away a mysterious is fortune worth as 117 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:07,320 Speaker 1: much as, by one estimate, one hundred billion dollars, which 118 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:10,240 Speaker 1: is a lot of gold. That's a lot of gold. 119 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:12,200 Speaker 1: That's a lot of gold, and that's not uncommon. That's 120 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:15,200 Speaker 1: part of the romance of the ideas, especially when either 121 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:17,480 Speaker 1: at the time or in retrospect you're talking about these 122 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:21,680 Speaker 1: somewhat scurless characters who skirted the edge of legality, were 123 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:27,440 Speaker 1: enemies to some friends to others, somewhat legal pirates working 124 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:30,080 Speaker 1: with the sort of the stamp of approval of the queen. 125 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:32,959 Speaker 1: And so as these pirates are pirrating their way around 126 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:36,200 Speaker 1: the Caribbean, it's only natural to assume, as they're hiding 127 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:41,400 Speaker 1: in coves, in little uh h endlets exactly, um, you 128 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:43,760 Speaker 1: know that there might be a couple of chests somewhere. 129 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:48,320 Speaker 1: And Drake he died in fifteen nineties six, so you know, 130 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:52,040 Speaker 1: end of the sixteenth century. He died, um, somewhere in 131 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:56,000 Speaker 1: the Caribbean, in the Greater Antilles. Dysenterius. What got him? 132 00:08:56,040 --> 00:08:59,160 Speaker 1: It wasn't any of the swashbuckling. There were no mutinies 133 00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:04,079 Speaker 1: or rebellions. Are angry deck swabbers, right. He passed away 134 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 1: in a surprisingly not that Dysenterry is a pleasant way 135 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:10,240 Speaker 1: to go, but in a comparatively pleasant way compared to 136 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:13,560 Speaker 1: you know, the other hazards of his occupation. I don't know, 137 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:17,160 Speaker 1: a quick must get shot to the head or a 138 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:19,480 Speaker 1: sword through the throat or whatever you see in the movies. 139 00:09:19,559 --> 00:09:22,400 Speaker 1: That that's pretty quick, That it is pretty quick, that's 140 00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:25,800 Speaker 1: true's gruesome? Well, I don't know, Dysenterry eyesn't imagine it's 141 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:28,720 Speaker 1: fairly gruesome. Yeah, you know, of the three, I would 142 00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:32,960 Speaker 1: rather not pick any, you know. Uh, he probably he 143 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:35,440 Speaker 1: probably did not want to go out that way either. 144 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:39,360 Speaker 1: But Ben, can we fast forward a couple of hundred years? Yes, 145 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:43,640 Speaker 1: we should, because you see, Francis Drake left no legitimate 146 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:47,400 Speaker 1: air and his fortune seemed to have vanished. This became 147 00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:52,040 Speaker 1: a cool story to tell around the campfire for as 148 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:56,920 Speaker 1: you said, several hundred years. Let's fast forward to the 149 00:09:56,960 --> 00:10:02,920 Speaker 1: early twentieth century in Iowa, in somewhere between nineteen fifteen 150 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:09,960 Speaker 1: and nineteen nineteen, right, right, So, um, definitely not pirate territory, no, no, no, no. Uh. 151 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:14,920 Speaker 1: The Iowan pirate industry was not in its glory days, right, 152 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:18,520 Speaker 1: and maybe hasn't reached them yet. So there's this guy 153 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:24,400 Speaker 1: in Madison County, Iowa. His name is Oscar Meryl heart Cell. 154 00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:29,959 Speaker 1: He had tried a couple of different occupations with middling success. 155 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:32,880 Speaker 1: He was working as as a farmer. At times he 156 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:37,680 Speaker 1: was working as a deputy sheriff there in Madison County. 157 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:41,800 Speaker 1: And when he is about around about thirty nine forty 158 00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:48,160 Speaker 1: years old, he meets two people who are very charming, 159 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:52,720 Speaker 1: very glad, handy, and it turns out that they have, 160 00:10:53,480 --> 00:11:00,320 Speaker 1: through mysterious unique means, aligne on the legendary fortune of 161 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:06,000 Speaker 1: Sir Francis Drake. And they talked to Oscar's mom and 162 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:10,360 Speaker 1: they say, Mrs Hartzell, we will give you a slice 163 00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:15,720 Speaker 1: of this amazing pie treasure. Wait, this amazing treasure of 164 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:20,320 Speaker 1: this amazing pie of treasure. Yeah, treasure. I feel like 165 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:23,000 Speaker 1: treasure pie. That is probably the more direct way. There's 166 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:25,360 Speaker 1: probably if you go to like some Iowa church sale, 167 00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:27,360 Speaker 1: there's a nice woman who will sell you a slice 168 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:30,720 Speaker 1: of treasure pie. It's probably studded with gummy bears and snickers. 169 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:33,520 Speaker 1: But that's not what we're talking about. That's not no, no, 170 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:38,120 Speaker 1: we could be we should. I am sorry about the 171 00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:44,199 Speaker 1: cookies I owe you. So. So this couple tells Oscar's 172 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:47,480 Speaker 1: mom that, you know, they will turn this six thousand 173 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:50,959 Speaker 1: dollars into a much larger sum of money. Reportedly six 174 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:55,720 Speaker 1: million bucks, and they go along with it. His mother 175 00:11:56,440 --> 00:11:58,800 Speaker 1: is a victim of what turns out to be a 176 00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:04,079 Speaker 1: con be because you see, it was not uncommon for 177 00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:08,560 Speaker 1: people to falsely claim that they could help you get 178 00:12:08,559 --> 00:12:12,280 Speaker 1: a piece of the legendary treasure of Sir Francis Drake. 179 00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:16,640 Speaker 1: This is a version of an older con, the unclaimed 180 00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:21,840 Speaker 1: estate con right, and that still happens today via email. 181 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:24,760 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, Nigerian Princes of plenty. Uh. You know, we've 182 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 1: we've talked about this before in the show, how people 183 00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:28,880 Speaker 1: are so willing to buy into something. But I think 184 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:31,000 Speaker 1: what you mentioned is that it was a common con 185 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:34,680 Speaker 1: and that's part of why I think it's easier for 186 00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:36,640 Speaker 1: people to go along with it. Right, if someone just 187 00:12:36,679 --> 00:12:39,160 Speaker 1: came to you and said, hey, we've got this in 188 00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:42,240 Speaker 1: on millions of dollars, you could be the only one 189 00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:46,200 Speaker 1: that may raise some questions. But you know, at the 190 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:50,840 Speaker 1: time in Iowa, in Missouri around there, this was becoming 191 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:52,839 Speaker 1: more and more common. There was a woman named Sudy 192 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:56,559 Speaker 1: Whittaker who really got things going in this sort of 193 00:12:56,960 --> 00:13:00,040 Speaker 1: Drake fortune swindle. She claimed to be related to to 194 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:02,480 Speaker 1: a man named George Drake and could trace her lineage 195 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:07,360 Speaker 1: back to him, and then they claimed that Drake George 196 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:10,360 Speaker 1: came from Sir Francis Drake. And basically the way the 197 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 1: swindle worked is pretty much what you've laid out. There's 198 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:16,520 Speaker 1: this this massive fortune, but it's being held up in 199 00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:25,400 Speaker 1: court and we need your help to get it out. So, yeah, 200 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:29,720 Speaker 1: Oscar Hartzel saw his mom getting swindled, Ben, what would 201 00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:31,720 Speaker 1: you do if you saw one of your parents getting 202 00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:35,560 Speaker 1: built out of some money? Would you defend them? Would 203 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:38,839 Speaker 1: you try to argue with the people who stole money 204 00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:43,480 Speaker 1: from them? Possibly take legal action? Yeah? Um called the cops, 205 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:49,240 Speaker 1: shout about it out of a window online in a podcast. 206 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:54,040 Speaker 1: Would you joined forces with them? You know? That is 207 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:58,320 Speaker 1: the plot twist, right Most people would say no, right 208 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:01,560 Speaker 1: like that. That wouldn't be your instinct, would it. Christopher 209 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:06,160 Speaker 1: would not, So so it was Oscar's instinct. And there's 210 00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:09,720 Speaker 1: there's a strange evolution here the two Connars. He meets 211 00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:12,600 Speaker 1: one the infamous Sudi Whittaker that you mentioned, the other 212 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:17,800 Speaker 1: severely weasley lawyer named Milo Lewis, which I know can 213 00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:20,920 Speaker 1: sound sort of stereotypical, but this guy was a real cad. 214 00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:24,760 Speaker 1: It was a pill. These are the folks who built 215 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:31,160 Speaker 1: Oscar's mom out of thousands of dollars, and Oscar notices that, 216 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:33,880 Speaker 1: surprise rise the money from the Drake estate does not 217 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:38,440 Speaker 1: come pouring down on them. He decides to seek out 218 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 1: Sudi and Milo, and at this point we're pretty sure 219 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:47,840 Speaker 1: he still fought this was a legitimate thing and not 220 00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:52,520 Speaker 1: a con at first. And you know, he's essentially checking in, 221 00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 1: where's the money? I hope you guys are doing well. 222 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:58,840 Speaker 1: Talk soon. And so Louis and Whittaker, in an excellent 223 00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:02,640 Speaker 1: piece of improvisation I must say, they say, you know what, Oscar, 224 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:04,840 Speaker 1: we like to cut a your jib. You want to 225 00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:08,080 Speaker 1: work with us because we can get this money faster 226 00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:11,600 Speaker 1: if we have a little more cash to prime the pump. 227 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:15,680 Speaker 1: So would you help us recruit additional people to invest 228 00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:20,720 Speaker 1: in this astonishing opportunity and he says yes. The three 229 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:24,960 Speaker 1: of them go to England and they tell their investors 230 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:29,040 Speaker 1: we are traveling across the pond because we need to 231 00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:32,040 Speaker 1: work out just some of the legal kinks the bureaucracy 232 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:36,280 Speaker 1: in person in England. And you know b R B 233 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:40,080 Speaker 1: T T Y L love you that kind of stuff. 234 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:43,440 Speaker 1: And while he's in England, they're still communicating, not just 235 00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:46,000 Speaker 1: with the marks that they had identified while in the US, 236 00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:48,960 Speaker 1: but they actually set up a network of even more 237 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:51,360 Speaker 1: people to work for them, to act as their agents 238 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:55,440 Speaker 1: in Iowa, in Missouri, in that region of the country. 239 00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:59,280 Speaker 1: So they're going around basically with a sort of pyramid 240 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:02,960 Speaker 1: scheme set up where their agents are the ones going 241 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:06,560 Speaker 1: to people and saying, listen, this Drake fortune could be 242 00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:10,480 Speaker 1: anywhere from They promised some people twenty two billion dollars. 243 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:15,160 Speaker 1: They told some other people four hundred billion dollars, a 244 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:18,080 Speaker 1: lot of billions of dollars. But here's why they needed 245 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:20,440 Speaker 1: the help of the individual people in the US that 246 00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:23,160 Speaker 1: they were talking to. They said that this money has 247 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:26,720 Speaker 1: been found. The fortune is in the United Kingdom, and 248 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:30,440 Speaker 1: anyone with the last name Drake, anyone who can tie 249 00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:34,920 Speaker 1: their lineage back to Sir Francis Drake, is eligible for 250 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:37,040 Speaker 1: a cut of that money. And you, sir or madam, 251 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:40,320 Speaker 1: could be one of those people. But we need your 252 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:44,320 Speaker 1: help because the court costs in the UK are outrageous. 253 00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:48,880 Speaker 1: Two thousand five dars a week is what they have 254 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:52,240 Speaker 1: to spend just to keep the case going in the UK. 255 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:57,280 Speaker 1: So they promised people as Hart soul's mother fell prey 256 00:16:57,360 --> 00:17:01,960 Speaker 1: to these ridiculous, ridiculous returns. They said, for every dollar 257 00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:05,960 Speaker 1: you invested, you would get five hundred dollars back. You know, 258 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:08,920 Speaker 1: when this fortune has revealed it, Ben, I'm just gonna 259 00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:13,159 Speaker 1: step back and say, anytime anyone promises you, what is 260 00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:20,160 Speaker 1: a fifty thousand percent returned? Right, maybe maybe maybe take 261 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:24,560 Speaker 1: a step back, juice your skepticism a little bit. But 262 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:30,720 Speaker 1: seventy people in the US people bought into this. That 263 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:33,120 Speaker 1: is a lot of people. That is, it's not four 264 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:38,520 Speaker 1: billion people, but it is quite quite a large number. 265 00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:41,800 Speaker 1: And you know, as we say it's it can always 266 00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:44,600 Speaker 1: be tempting to look back and think, what a bunch 267 00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:49,280 Speaker 1: of rubes, you know, how gullible, how credulous. However, when 268 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:52,800 Speaker 1: they were in the moment, a lot of these seventy 269 00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:57,119 Speaker 1: thousand people came from similar backgrounds. They knew one another 270 00:17:57,240 --> 00:18:00,879 Speaker 1: because there was this multi level market thing. Is what 271 00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:04,239 Speaker 1: it ultimately involved into the way people were recruiting. So 272 00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 1: they were not necessarily getting strangers as often as they 273 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:10,800 Speaker 1: were getting their friends, their neighbors, their loved ones. People 274 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:15,000 Speaker 1: who went to the same general store, the same church 275 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:17,480 Speaker 1: or something. People you could believe people who could vouch 276 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:20,520 Speaker 1: for you, people who you know, and Hartstel made things 277 00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:22,240 Speaker 1: seem like they were on the up and up. He 278 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:27,240 Speaker 1: established an official organization, the Sir Francis Strake Association. He 279 00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:30,919 Speaker 1: put out official newsletters. You know this was It looked legit. 280 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:35,480 Speaker 1: It looked legit. It walked and quacked like a duck. 281 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:40,280 Speaker 1: But before we go into the beauty of his con, 282 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:44,120 Speaker 1: let's let's take just a second to point out the 283 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:49,480 Speaker 1: internal evolution of his his con gang. So, as we said, 284 00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:53,440 Speaker 1: Sudi and Milo right are the ones who inducted him 285 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:58,920 Speaker 1: into this. Hart Sel is not particularly thick or dope 286 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:04,040 Speaker 1: ish dude. He knows something is wonky about this, and 287 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:08,000 Speaker 1: he figures out while they are in England that this 288 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:12,199 Speaker 1: is part of a scam. And he notices that Lewis 289 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:17,600 Speaker 1: and Whittaker, they have some internal tensions because, you know, 290 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:22,159 Speaker 1: putting two con artists into a game seems like it's unsustainable. 291 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:27,399 Speaker 1: It might not end well here today. I have no comment. No, uh, 292 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:30,560 Speaker 1: non't know. He is. He's on an adventure that I 293 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:33,440 Speaker 1: think he'll yeah, I think he'll tell us about He 294 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:37,720 Speaker 1: should be in um, he should be in New York. 295 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:41,480 Speaker 1: That's the story I'm sticking to and wait, are you 296 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:45,439 Speaker 1: a cop? I have no pithy remark. All right, Casey, No, 297 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:49,000 Speaker 1: leave it in, Leave it in for later legal proceeds. 298 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:51,440 Speaker 1: Ho it't like Casey. That reminds me I just need 299 00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:54,239 Speaker 1: fifty bucks to keep that stuff moving through court? Are 300 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:56,040 Speaker 1: you cool with that? Ben? I really don't think it's 301 00:19:56,040 --> 00:19:57,520 Speaker 1: a good idea to talk about this on the air. 302 00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:01,880 Speaker 1: That's true, unless some listeners want to, and into which 303 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:05,600 Speaker 1: we should. I think I just violated several laws, broadcast laws, 304 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:10,239 Speaker 1: digital laws, corporate policies. But it was a different time, 305 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:14,960 Speaker 1: billion dollars Casey on the case, by the way, as well, 306 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:21,520 Speaker 1: so our different moderndation. Annigan's aside. We could learn a 307 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:27,600 Speaker 1: lot from Heartzell in England because he sees opportunity in 308 00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:33,239 Speaker 1: this increasingly chaotic partnership and he becomes sort of the 309 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:36,440 Speaker 1: face of this He I don't want to say franchises, 310 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:42,040 Speaker 1: but he punches up essentially the original scheme. He starts 311 00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:47,720 Speaker 1: dressing in custom suits and he starts looking the part 312 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:52,000 Speaker 1: you know of someone who would be considered uh an 313 00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:56,640 Speaker 1: old money descendant right of of Francis Drake himself. There's 314 00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:59,760 Speaker 1: an excellent article in this called may I Hold Your Watch, 315 00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:04,200 Speaker 1: which comes from Susan Adams and refers to impart a different, 316 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:08,359 Speaker 1: equally impressive con artist. But we have a rough idea 317 00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:11,440 Speaker 1: of the pitch. We know that the number that he 318 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:13,919 Speaker 1: would give people varied, as you said, twenty two billion 319 00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:18,399 Speaker 1: billions somewhere in between, and it was tied up in 320 00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:23,760 Speaker 1: probate court. Also, the cash value wasn't the entirety of 321 00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:28,600 Speaker 1: the fortune. The entire English city of Plymouth was up 322 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:33,159 Speaker 1: for grab. And he started off finding, you know, people 323 00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:37,040 Speaker 1: with the surname Drake, a relationship, some sort of possible 324 00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:40,560 Speaker 1: or plausible connection to this historical figure. But then I 325 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:43,720 Speaker 1: guess the money got too good. He expanded the con 326 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:47,840 Speaker 1: He started talking to people outside of Iowa, including a 327 00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:52,200 Speaker 1: lot of people who had no relation to Francis Drake, 328 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:55,960 Speaker 1: not even in a sensible pretend one, no relation whatsoever. 329 00:21:56,359 --> 00:22:00,320 Speaker 1: And that's when he started getting to uh that havand 330 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:04,919 Speaker 1: thousand people mark that you mentioned. And he was living 331 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:10,200 Speaker 1: high on the hog, an opulent lifestyle, as we said, 332 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:15,280 Speaker 1: top notch clothing, eating at the best restaurants, etcetera. Pretty 333 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:18,040 Speaker 1: much the exact behavior we see con Artists Committee in 334 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:25,120 Speaker 1: feature films. And the thing is, this con still powers on. 335 00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:30,840 Speaker 1: He was able to keep it running pretty successfully until 336 00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:32,560 Speaker 1: a couple of things happened. He was able to keep 337 00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:39,360 Speaker 1: it running until the Great Depression, despite various red flags 338 00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:43,639 Speaker 1: that proved his falsehoods. Right, the British government announced in 339 00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:48,280 Speaker 1: nine that there was no fortune from Francis Drake. Yeah, 340 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:50,640 Speaker 1: that's the thing is, it's not like no one else 341 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:54,680 Speaker 1: had thought about this, right, So the government had kind 342 00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:57,960 Speaker 1: of paid attention and um, they said, look, whatever fortune 343 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:03,040 Speaker 1: that there was, it probably went to Drake's second wife, Elizabeth, 344 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:06,399 Speaker 1: And so there's nothing left. There's no If there's a 345 00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:10,639 Speaker 1: hidden treasure, go grab a shovel. But there's nothing in 346 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:13,399 Speaker 1: the probate courts. You know, there are no billions of 347 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:17,240 Speaker 1: pounds just waiting to be dispersed exactly. But people don't 348 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:20,000 Speaker 1: want to hear that, because if you believe in this 349 00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:24,720 Speaker 1: sort of audacious get rich quick dream, then you it'll 350 00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:27,680 Speaker 1: be part of your internal logic. Of course, the government 351 00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:30,240 Speaker 1: is going to say it's not there, you know, but 352 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:33,520 Speaker 1: I am a descendant of Francis Drake, and this gold 353 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:35,560 Speaker 1: at least some of it, at least a few billion 354 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:39,720 Speaker 1: of it belongs to me. Another thing that Hartzel did 355 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:42,520 Speaker 1: wisely was to stay in the UK at the time 356 00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:47,480 Speaker 1: because he wasn't breaking any British laws. He was. He 357 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:53,240 Speaker 1: was just hanging out, making money, dressing nicely, walking around, 358 00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:58,480 Speaker 1: eating well and sending letters. Right. Because again his his 359 00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:02,240 Speaker 1: supporters were US based, it is very smart to have 360 00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:06,080 Speaker 1: an ocean between them in case the heat picked up. 361 00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:11,280 Speaker 1: It did, it always does, it always does. This heat 362 00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:15,760 Speaker 1: took the form of a pretty tenacious postal officer in 363 00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:19,960 Speaker 1: the UK who started to get suspicious and said, all right, 364 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:25,520 Speaker 1: what's really going on with this Drake venture? And when 365 00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:29,560 Speaker 1: he found out, he reported this to the authorities. As 366 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:33,120 Speaker 1: you said, Christopher, the British could not prosecute heart Swell. 367 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:36,080 Speaker 1: He did not commit any crimes, right, he was just 368 00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:38,840 Speaker 1: sort of a foodie and a man about town in 369 00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:43,160 Speaker 1: a clothes horse. But what they could do is deport him. 370 00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:47,680 Speaker 1: They could extraditem to the US to stand trial for 371 00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:51,479 Speaker 1: mail fraud, which is how like the specific charge they 372 00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:56,200 Speaker 1: wanted to get him for. Fast forward n Iowa. Heartswell 373 00:24:56,400 --> 00:25:00,119 Speaker 1: is on trial Oscar Hartswell. And here's the crazy thing. 374 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:04,840 Speaker 1: He doesn't show up alone. He has a hundreds strong 375 00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:11,720 Speaker 1: mob of fans, supporters, fellow investors who are cheering because 376 00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:15,520 Speaker 1: they feel like this is I don't know. This makes 377 00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:18,040 Speaker 1: me think of the context too, right when we're talking 378 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:22,359 Speaker 1: about the thirties. This makes me think that at least 379 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:27,760 Speaker 1: part of the psychology here could be a sort of 380 00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:31,280 Speaker 1: fight against authoritarian figures thing going on. You know, and 381 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:33,960 Speaker 1: people are saying, well, the common man is always getting 382 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:36,520 Speaker 1: crushed by the courts. Well sure, and at the time 383 00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:40,119 Speaker 1: not unlike some other times in uh in past or 384 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:43,920 Speaker 1: more recent or contemporary history. You know, people are desperate. 385 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:46,160 Speaker 1: They've they've lost a lot of money, but they also 386 00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:49,800 Speaker 1: don't necessarily see a path towards getting more stability or 387 00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:52,560 Speaker 1: more money for their lives. Right, so they feel like 388 00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:55,920 Speaker 1: they've exhausted the traditional paths. They've done what they were 389 00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:58,679 Speaker 1: told to do. They tried working for the farm, they 390 00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:01,120 Speaker 1: tried working for their company, and it didn't work out. 391 00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:04,560 Speaker 1: So even if you sat down with someone and said, listen, 392 00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:07,159 Speaker 1: do you really think you're going to get millions and 393 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:09,920 Speaker 1: millions of dollars? We're like, wow, maybe I don't know, 394 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:12,240 Speaker 1: but like, but what's it gonna hurt if I'm already 395 00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:15,639 Speaker 1: getting screwed? Over. If my life is already not in 396 00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:18,639 Speaker 1: great shape and I don't have good prospects, why not 397 00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:24,280 Speaker 1: put aside hundred two hundreds of thousand dollars with the 398 00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:27,000 Speaker 1: prospects of maybe this will pay off massively in the future. 399 00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:30,359 Speaker 1: I mean, you see very similar situation. You could argue 400 00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:35,879 Speaker 1: that state lotteries operate in much the same way. People know, 401 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:39,440 Speaker 1: they know the odds are against them, but they might 402 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:41,520 Speaker 1: not be. You know, it always makes you think. One 403 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:46,080 Speaker 1: way my father used to describe lotteries and gambling. He said, 404 00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:51,000 Speaker 1: the lottery is a attacks on people who are bad 405 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:54,240 Speaker 1: at math. It's like it's attacks for not thinking through 406 00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:55,920 Speaker 1: the math. He said. It was a much more charming 407 00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:58,679 Speaker 1: East Tennessee accent. He did, He did, he did. He 408 00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:07,679 Speaker 1: is really leaning into that accent post retirement. There's a 409 00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:12,040 Speaker 1: heartbreaking part of this because we have to realize that 410 00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:15,040 Speaker 1: a lot of people who had bought into this, even 411 00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:18,760 Speaker 1: if it were not their entire fortune, this was like 412 00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:22,480 Speaker 1: the dream that they clung to, you know, as things 413 00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:25,560 Speaker 1: got worse and worse and day to day life, they 414 00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:28,240 Speaker 1: were waiting for justice to be served and then to 415 00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:33,879 Speaker 1: receive their rightful inheritance from their lauded ancestor Francis Drake 416 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:38,159 Speaker 1: and Oscar heart Cell is their golden ticket. He's the 417 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:41,720 Speaker 1: conduit through which this success will arrive. There may or 418 00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:44,359 Speaker 1: may not also have been a little bit of you know, 419 00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:50,440 Speaker 1: American versus the British system of you know, the the 420 00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:53,800 Speaker 1: King's got things held up in court and we hard 421 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:58,200 Speaker 1: working Americans are just trying to free that for ourselves. Um. 422 00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:01,480 Speaker 1: But yeah, as you point out, Hartel shows up in 423 00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:04,919 Speaker 1: court not just with supporters, not just with the people, 424 00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:08,919 Speaker 1: but with their money. I mean, he raised over the 425 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:12,320 Speaker 1: fifteen years he ran this scam, he made two million 426 00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:16,880 Speaker 1: dollars for himself for himself, two million dollars. And yet 427 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:21,760 Speaker 1: when he goes to court, his supporters still pledge money 428 00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:24,720 Speaker 1: for a defense fund. And um, I saw a couple 429 00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:26,679 Speaker 1: of different numbers. And when I was doing the research 430 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:29,320 Speaker 1: for this piece, which, by the way, I really recommend 431 00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:31,679 Speaker 1: any listeners who want to read more about this checkout 432 00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:34,919 Speaker 1: a New Yorker article from two thousand to written by 433 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:37,240 Speaker 1: Richard Rayner. It's called The Admiral and the con Man. 434 00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:38,920 Speaker 1: It's got a lot of really great details in there. 435 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:42,640 Speaker 1: But Hartzel's supporters race anywhere from sixty eight thousand to 436 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:46,000 Speaker 1: three hundred and fifty thousand dollars for his defense, to 437 00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:48,680 Speaker 1: pay for the lawyers when he was in court, despite 438 00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:51,480 Speaker 1: the fact that he had two million of well not 439 00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:54,920 Speaker 1: his own, but yeah, that he had kind of generated 440 00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:58,880 Speaker 1: the fortune he was claiming to have. Yet they also 441 00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:03,560 Speaker 1: paid for his bail. And despite all this public support, 442 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:06,600 Speaker 1: Heartswell is convicted. They say they're going to ship him 443 00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:09,920 Speaker 1: off the Leavenworth for ten years on these mail fraud charges. 444 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:15,400 Speaker 1: While he is in jail, the scam continues. It collects 445 00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:20,520 Speaker 1: another half a million dollars. Some people died convinced that, 446 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:23,720 Speaker 1: you know, this fortune will not go to me now 447 00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:26,280 Speaker 1: that I am going to pass away, but it will 448 00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:29,080 Speaker 1: go to my children and their children. So there's there's 449 00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:32,960 Speaker 1: some hope at the end of the long day. And 450 00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:35,600 Speaker 1: it's nuts he had, you know, he had at this 451 00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:39,360 Speaker 1: point kind of I want to call him employees, associates 452 00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:44,240 Speaker 1: like his his agents. His brother, a guy named Canfield, 453 00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:49,000 Speaker 1: played an instrumental role in keeping the con going. But 454 00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:54,720 Speaker 1: now Uncle Sam is wise to it and Heartswell goes 455 00:29:54,840 --> 00:30:01,600 Speaker 1: to trial again. He loses again. This is is one 456 00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:04,440 Speaker 1: of my favorite parts. I wish we had the substance 457 00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:06,960 Speaker 1: of this to do a re enactment, but we'll we'll, 458 00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:09,040 Speaker 1: we'll spare you that because we don't have the exact 459 00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:14,960 Speaker 1: language here. At his sentencing, he jumps up and starts 460 00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:21,800 Speaker 1: raving like an unhinged lunatic about how amazing the Drake 461 00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:26,240 Speaker 1: estate is and how you know, history will see who 462 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:29,040 Speaker 1: was right and who was on you know, who was 463 00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:33,160 Speaker 1: correct in this mad endeavor. And this is the weird thing. 464 00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:36,880 Speaker 1: We will probably never know how much or how little 465 00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:39,440 Speaker 1: he actually believed that I was. Really I'm really interested 466 00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:43,080 Speaker 1: to hear your take, because he spoke with prison psychiatrists 467 00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:47,400 Speaker 1: and they said that he was claiming he was he, 468 00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:51,840 Speaker 1: that he himself was Sir Francis Drake, and they diagnosed 469 00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:56,120 Speaker 1: him with paranoid schizophrenia at the time. But was this 470 00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:58,600 Speaker 1: another con you know what I mean? Was he like 471 00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:03,560 Speaker 1: angling to go for some kind of insanity please, I 472 00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:05,600 Speaker 1: don't know. I don't know that the it would have 473 00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:08,160 Speaker 1: benefited him at the time. It may be the sort 474 00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:12,320 Speaker 1: of narcissistic um, you know, personality traits where you you 475 00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:14,360 Speaker 1: just don't want to get caught in a line, even 476 00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:16,360 Speaker 1: if you know you're lying, so you build it bigger 477 00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:20,000 Speaker 1: and bigger and bigger, but a little extra addition to 478 00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:24,120 Speaker 1: a hurricane map. Um. Yeah, but but yeah, I mean, 479 00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:27,560 Speaker 1: so he spent his time in Leavenworth, which is a 480 00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:29,800 Speaker 1: big deal prison, right, That's where he would have been 481 00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:32,760 Speaker 1: there at the same time as a gangsters like machine 482 00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:36,480 Speaker 1: Gun Kelly, like in the same building. This is serious business. 483 00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:40,320 Speaker 1: But while he was there, he also you know, at 484 00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:44,000 Speaker 1: the prison psychiatrists you mentioned, They also encouraged him to 485 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:47,200 Speaker 1: get his story out to help himself with these delusions. 486 00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:52,560 Speaker 1: So he wrote in six a prison autobiography, which I 487 00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:55,360 Speaker 1: think it would just be fascinating. I wasn't able to 488 00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:57,440 Speaker 1: find any of the original material, but it is mentioned 489 00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:01,360 Speaker 1: in that um in that Rainer piece. Because Rayner himself 490 00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:04,600 Speaker 1: and researching for this article that was published seventeen years ago, 491 00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:08,040 Speaker 1: got a lot of files released by Scotland Yard, you 492 00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:12,400 Speaker 1: know Scotland. Scotland Yard had three folders about Hartsel called 493 00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:16,640 Speaker 1: him a quote unquote notorious offender, and in there was 494 00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:19,840 Speaker 1: a copy of this probably the only copy of this 495 00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:23,320 Speaker 1: autobiography that he wrote while in prison. Yeah, and shouts 496 00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:27,120 Speaker 1: out to Richard Rayner because he did so much leg 497 00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:30,960 Speaker 1: work on this this story oddly enough sort of faded 498 00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:35,200 Speaker 1: from the conversation until hard working journalists and historians like 499 00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:39,200 Speaker 1: Rayner hunted it down. Well. I was able to find 500 00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:41,600 Speaker 1: out that in um in two thousand, there was a 501 00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:46,400 Speaker 1: play put on in London called Scam, Just just Scam, 502 00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:50,640 Speaker 1: to the tune of Fame. Yeah about this this very episode, 503 00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:53,280 Speaker 1: so a couple of years before Rayners article. So I 504 00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:55,680 Speaker 1: don't know if if one fed into the other. You know, sure, 505 00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:57,320 Speaker 1: maybe it was sort of bubbling up in the seite 506 00:32:57,360 --> 00:32:59,480 Speaker 1: geist and it's you know, one of those things where 507 00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:01,800 Speaker 1: people kind of knew about it, but it really took 508 00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:05,640 Speaker 1: the dedicated efforts of of serious writers and researchers to 509 00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:07,920 Speaker 1: really bring this thing to light. But yeah, I don't know. 510 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:11,160 Speaker 1: I mean, listeners, if you are in Iowa or that 511 00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:13,800 Speaker 1: part of the country, does any of this ring familiar 512 00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:15,920 Speaker 1: to you? A lot of people have never heard about 513 00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:18,360 Speaker 1: this before. I knew very little about it. I had 514 00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:21,160 Speaker 1: heard of kind of the Drake swindle, but I didn't 515 00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:23,480 Speaker 1: know about its relationship to a very specific part of 516 00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:26,080 Speaker 1: the United States. Oh and if you'd like to learn 517 00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:29,120 Speaker 1: more about it too, Richard Rayner wrote a book about 518 00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:32,600 Speaker 1: this in two thousand and three called Drake's Fortune, The 519 00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:36,640 Speaker 1: Fabulous True Story of the World's Greatest Confidence Artist, which 520 00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:39,080 Speaker 1: that title those you have to be careful with those 521 00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:42,840 Speaker 1: sorts of superlatives. What exactly is a con artist help 522 00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:45,640 Speaker 1: sell books? It helps sell books. That's true, and it's 523 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:47,240 Speaker 1: a real book. If you pay for it, you will 524 00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:50,040 Speaker 1: get a copy of the book. It's not like Drake's Fortune. 525 00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:57,000 Speaker 1: It's strange because although Rayner does pass away at the 526 00:33:57,000 --> 00:34:01,640 Speaker 1: age of sixties seven andree, he doesn't pass away in prison. 527 00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:06,200 Speaker 1: He passes away in a hospital for the criminally insane, 528 00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:08,839 Speaker 1: as they were called at the time. I do want 529 00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:11,320 Speaker 1: to point out that while it may have been different 530 00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:15,520 Speaker 1: from Leavenworth Prison, it was still not a particularly nice 531 00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:18,880 Speaker 1: place to be, right, Yeah, still a prison, still a prison. 532 00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:20,799 Speaker 1: And we could do an entire episode on the US 533 00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:25,080 Speaker 1: treatment of people with mental issues historically. Oh, if that's 534 00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:26,680 Speaker 1: a dark one, man, we might have to save that 535 00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:30,879 Speaker 1: one for October um. However, we know that despite him 536 00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:36,840 Speaker 1: passing away, people still believed the story, the story that 537 00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:40,359 Speaker 1: he created, well, the story that he punched up from 538 00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:43,919 Speaker 1: Milo and Sudi continued on without him, which I think 539 00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:46,719 Speaker 1: is amazing. Well, yeah, you know, it's the sort of 540 00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:49,759 Speaker 1: thing where sometimes founders don't know what they've got until 541 00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:52,000 Speaker 1: someone comes along and boosts it up. You know. You 542 00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:56,440 Speaker 1: see that in legitimate corporations, right uh. You know the 543 00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:59,720 Speaker 1: guys who founded McDonald's. They were doing okay, Sollen Burger's 544 00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:02,400 Speaker 1: and cow Fifornia until ray Kroc came along and said, 545 00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:04,640 Speaker 1: I've got an idea for you. Let's take this big 546 00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:10,520 Speaker 1: time exactly. And that's an excellent comparison. That is why, 547 00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:15,160 Speaker 1: according to Rayner in that New Yorker piece you mentioned earlier, Christopher, 548 00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:22,080 Speaker 1: even after Oscar Hartzwell's death, towns in Iowa and Minnesota 549 00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:27,719 Speaker 1: became divided between people who said, Okay, this was a scam, 550 00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:31,120 Speaker 1: I got got and people who said, no, big government 551 00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:34,279 Speaker 1: shut this down. The Drake fortune is out there, I 552 00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:37,040 Speaker 1: have a piece of it. I can't believe you're giving up, 553 00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:41,160 Speaker 1: nonbeliever or whatever you know. And this, this sort of 554 00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:48,560 Speaker 1: cultural conflict continued for years afterwards. This story makes me 555 00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:50,880 Speaker 1: think that while this guy may not have been the 556 00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:54,680 Speaker 1: world's greatest con man, whatever that means, he's definitely in 557 00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:57,359 Speaker 1: the top tier of the list. Wouldn't you say it's 558 00:35:57,440 --> 00:35:59,640 Speaker 1: it's certainly a ridiculous list. To be part of. It 559 00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:02,399 Speaker 1: is the ridiculous list to be part of. Uh, And 560 00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:06,279 Speaker 1: just emphasize this, it is a list that Casey my 561 00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:09,720 Speaker 1: co host Nolan I are not on by any means. 562 00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:13,560 Speaker 1: I still don't have cookies, all right, man, But you know, 563 00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:16,399 Speaker 1: it just takes a lot to prime the pump. What's ben, 564 00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:19,040 Speaker 1: what's the difference between a swindle and just a flat outlie? 565 00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:23,160 Speaker 1: A difference between a swindle and a flat outlie would 566 00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:27,080 Speaker 1: be that when I don't have cookies, that's the difference. 567 00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:29,440 Speaker 1: That's the difference. I was. I was going into it 568 00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:33,759 Speaker 1: at You heard me take a breath and I was like, well, 569 00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:36,440 Speaker 1: you know, uh, sometimes like a swindle would have a 570 00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:40,360 Speaker 1: sometimes a material exchange of goods would I'm just just 571 00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:43,640 Speaker 1: give me a cookie. Thank you so much for coming 572 00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:46,560 Speaker 1: on the show, Christopher Hacio. It is We will indeed 573 00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:50,440 Speaker 1: bring you some cookies. I have to I have to 574 00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:54,760 Speaker 1: say it is always a pleasure. I will be sending 575 00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:59,520 Speaker 1: an email requesting your cookie preferences, and we'd also like 576 00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:02,840 Speaker 1: to hear your take, folks, what what are your favorite cookies? 577 00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:07,359 Speaker 1: Do you know anyone who was maybe involved in this 578 00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:12,879 Speaker 1: sort of this huge con this huge swindle and do 579 00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:16,880 Speaker 1: you think that Oscar Hartswell at the very end of 580 00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:19,200 Speaker 1: his life, do you think he really believes he was 581 00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:22,480 Speaker 1: Francis Drake or do you think he was just trying 582 00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:26,560 Speaker 1: to get one last con over. Thank you so much 583 00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:29,680 Speaker 1: to our super producer Casey Pegram, Alex Williams, who composed 584 00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:35,200 Speaker 1: our track, our research associates Gabe, Ryan Eve's Jeff Cote 585 00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:38,440 Speaker 1: who may be appearing on the show soon, and Christopher. 586 00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:41,120 Speaker 1: Despite the fact that you and I have had our 587 00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:45,320 Speaker 1: baked goods related differences in the course of this show, 588 00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:48,319 Speaker 1: how how would you feel about coming back on for 589 00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:51,239 Speaker 1: another one? Sometimes you know that's the way it crumbles. 590 00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:54,480 Speaker 1: There's no one I'd rather be locked in a studio with. 591 00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:59,000 Speaker 1: Thank you that Okay, it's very specific compliment. Thank you 592 00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:09,680 Speaker 1: so much. We'll see you next time, folks. For more 593 00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:12,200 Speaker 1: podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, 594 00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:15,320 Speaker 1: Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.