Speaker 1: Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties,
Speaker 1: the podcast where we talk through some of the big
Speaker 1: life changes and transitions of our twenties and what they
Speaker 1: mean for our psychology.
Speaker 2: Today is International Women's Day, and I thought what better
Speaker 2: way to celebrate than to bring my mum on the
Speaker 2: show to discuss motherhood, feminism, being a leader, a successful
Speaker 2: woman in a male dominated industry, all of the above.
Speaker 2: She is a pretty cool lady and my personal hero.
Speaker 2: I know that sounds cliche, but I am super lucky
Speaker 2: to have had such a wonderful role model who has
Speaker 2: a lot of wisdom to share, and I thought you
Speaker 2: guys could benefit from some of that wisdom as well.
Speaker 2: This episode is part of Iheart's International Women's Day initiative
Speaker 2: called Women Take the Mic. You can find a bunch
Speaker 2: of other interviews just like this one by so Women
Speaker 2: Take the Mic wherever you get your podcasts. Let's jump
Speaker 2: into the interview. Hello everybody, Welcome back to the show.
Speaker 2: Welcome back to the podcast, new listeners, old listeners, wherever
Speaker 2: you are in the world, it is so great to
Speaker 2: have you here. Back for another episode as we break
Speaker 2: down the psychology of our twenties. Today, we're going to
Speaker 2: be doing something a little bit different. I know I
Speaker 2: say that every guest is my favorite, but honestly, this
Speaker 2: one I think kind of has to take the cake
Speaker 2: by obligation because they are blood. I thought, it's International
Speaker 2: Women's Day today. Who better to talk to who is
Speaker 2: more my hero than my own mother? So today I'm
Speaker 2: bringing on my mum to come and have a chat
Speaker 2: with me as we talk about mother daughter dynamics, motherhood,
Speaker 2: being a successful woman in business as she is, and
Speaker 2: feminism and all the good things that come with it. So, hey, Mom,
Speaker 2: how you going? Hey Jim, you were saying to me
Speaker 2: that you were nervous before this.
Speaker 3: I'm a bit nervous. Why Ah, because I probably haven't
Speaker 3: been well.
Speaker 4: I haven't been interviewed by you before, and it's a
Speaker 4: different dynamic.
Speaker 3: And of course you know I want to do well
Speaker 3: by you.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, you want to impress the listeners.
Speaker 3: Well, I just I don't want to let you down.
Speaker 3: I don't.
Speaker 4: I don't want to come across as not being worthy
Speaker 4: of your wonderful pod.
Speaker 2: Oh that's okay. I will defend you to the death.
Speaker 2: If anyone says anything, I'll be like, that's my mother
Speaker 2: you're talking about. So block deleted. I honestly think this
Speaker 2: will be a great chat because we have a good
Speaker 2: relationship both as a mother and daughter and as kind
Speaker 2: of friends as well.
Speaker 4: Yeah me too, I'm looking I'm looking forward to it.
Speaker 4: It's just it's a different dynamic for me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm in charge. Yeah, you're in my turf.
Speaker 3: I can't hang up.
Speaker 2: You can't hang up with blood related So I wanted
Speaker 2: to bring you on because obviously it's International Woman's Day,
Speaker 2: and I was thinking, let's do a special episode this,
Speaker 2: Let's do an episode talking about what it means to
Speaker 2: be a woman, to identify as a woman, and part
Speaker 2: of what comes with that is also like a discussion
Speaker 2: around like our relationship with our mothers and a relationship
Speaker 2: with our parents and all these other things. How like
Speaker 2: our childhood informs the women that we grow up to be.
Speaker 2: And I thought that we could do a little deep
Speaker 2: dive into what it was like for you to become
Speaker 2: my mom. Because I'm the oldest daughter, you're also the
Speaker 2: oldest daughter, and just like what I was like as
Speaker 2: a child, what it was like becoming a mother, like
Speaker 2: I said, and then what it's like to run a
Speaker 2: business basically, which you do well. You're a CEO.
Speaker 3: So that's like, well, certainly plenty to talk about.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm going to start with a hard hitting question. Okay,
Speaker 2: go for it, because I wanted to know this as well.
Speaker 2: What was I like as a child? Do you remember?
Speaker 2: Be embarrassed if you don't know.
Speaker 3: The funny thing is you really do remember.
Speaker 4: And I suspect that there's I need to be a
Speaker 4: bit careful because of course memories change over time, and
Speaker 4: you think you remember certain things. I'm sure you remember
Speaker 4: some things differently to the way I remember them.
Speaker 3: We can get to that. But actually, the really.
Speaker 4: Interesting thing is when I sort of think back on
Speaker 4: you and your sisters, I've got really clear memories of
Speaker 4: the days each of you were born, my sort of
Speaker 4: very clear first impressions of each of you, and and
Speaker 4: it was it's funny.
Speaker 3: You're all different.
Speaker 4: I remember, so what I remember of you the day
Speaker 4: you were born, and by the way you had to
Speaker 4: come in, you know, with the bang. You were an
Speaker 4: emergency as a child.
Speaker 3: So so there was that, There was that.
Speaker 4: But the thing I remember was in amongst all of
Speaker 4: this sort of calm chaos, was was you sort of
Speaker 4: sort of coming out with these big eyes, just sort
Speaker 4: of slowly blinking at the world as if to say,
Speaker 4: you know, where am I?
Speaker 3: What? What if I come to?
Speaker 4: But not not crying so much and just sort of,
Speaker 4: you know, trying to sort of focus straight out of
Speaker 4: the gate, trying to focus on what was around you
Speaker 4: and trying to make sense of it is what it felt.
Speaker 2: Like, Oh I can't remember that.
Speaker 4: But yeah, and then you know you were quiet as
Speaker 4: as a little baby for the first week or so,
Speaker 4: but that changed.
Speaker 3: But the other thing too, is that I think.
Speaker 4: The other really strong kind of recollection for me was
Speaker 4: that very early on you realize that your kids come
Speaker 4: out with their own personalities. And because I too had
Speaker 4: done a bit of psychology in my time, I think
Speaker 4: there's that whole nature versus nurture sort of thing that
Speaker 4: goes through, and I think you start off thinking, you,
Speaker 4: you know, you're going to be this amazing.
Speaker 3: Parent and it's all going to be nurture.
Speaker 4: But you know, probably because you are a first it
Speaker 4: was a pretty overwhelming kind of sense of, oh, this
Speaker 4: little person has come out you know, with a sent
Speaker 4: with their own sense of who they are, their own personality,
Speaker 4: and then.
Speaker 3: What were you like as a kid. I've you know,
Speaker 3: you were strong minded.
Speaker 2: Oh that hasn't changed much.
Speaker 3: I know it hasn't, but you were.
Speaker 4: You really had strong views even as a youngster. But
Speaker 4: you were happy and as the first child. For us,
Speaker 4: the biggest thing was you were a sleeper. And my
Speaker 4: GOLLI gosh, we love that.
Speaker 2: That's so cute. I love that you said I came
Speaker 2: out and I was quiet for the first week, and
Speaker 2: the irony being now I literally talk on the internet
Speaker 2: for my job, which is so funny. And I am
Speaker 2: a bit of a yapper obviously. I love a yar.
Speaker 2: I love a yar.
Speaker 4: You were just a quiet little Mulu when you were
Speaker 4: just a wee little baby.
Speaker 2: And I was your favorite obviously for the first five
Speaker 2: years at least.
Speaker 4: Well you as about and I say you're a favorite
Speaker 4: oldest daughter.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's so diplomatic. I still think that you'll have
Speaker 2: a favorite. You just can't say. And I think that
Speaker 2: I'm yours, hopefully my younger sisters, hopefully Elli and Hannah
Speaker 2: a listening.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well I'm going to assume they are.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm sure. Yeah. So this is the thing. I
Speaker 2: feel like, how old were you when you had me,
Speaker 2: you were thirty two, right, thirty three? Thirty three? Okay,
Speaker 2: so you were like well and well into your thirties,
Speaker 2: but you were like my age, like nine years older
Speaker 2: than I am now.
Speaker 3: Yep.
Speaker 2: And that's like insane to me to think that I
Speaker 2: would be ready to have a child in nine years, like,
Speaker 2: let alone in like fifteen. What was like the biggest
Speaker 2: lesson you learned having children? Did you actually always want
Speaker 2: children even when you were younger.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I always wanted kids even when I was younger.
Speaker 4: You know, it's interesting because like thirty three is you know,
Speaker 4: it's not young to be having kids.
Speaker 3: Yeah, in the spirit of turtle frankness, you know, this
Speaker 3: took us a while to get pregnant with you.
Speaker 2: I don't need the Internet to know that.
Speaker 4: Well, but it's you know, and it's just it is
Speaker 4: one of those things that yeah, we you know, we
Speaker 4: were keen to have kids. You know, life, you find
Speaker 4: your partners at whatever age. Other things kind of happen,
Speaker 4: and you know, you I think one of the one
Speaker 4: of the things that I was thinking about and in
Speaker 4: terms of this conversation, was how people think about when
Speaker 4: to have kids.
Speaker 3: And you know, for me, it was when I met.
Speaker 4: Your dad, and you know, we went overseas and did
Speaker 4: some things and then came home to Australia and we're
Speaker 4: keen to start a family, and you know, we feel
Speaker 4: blessed to have three kids.
Speaker 3: But it's not always a straight line. I definitely felt.
Speaker 4: Very ready to be having kids, but it comes with
Speaker 4: a lot of you know a lot of ups and
Speaker 4: downs too, and things that you don't know what happens
Speaker 4: through pregnancies and whatever, and.
Speaker 3: So yeah, we're you know, was I ready? I was?
Speaker 4: But then in some ways, I guess you're never ready
Speaker 4: because you never know what's going to happen. And that's
Speaker 4: part of the challenge, is the uncertainty of it all.
Speaker 2: Was it harder when we were younger or is it
Speaker 2: harder now now that we're because we're a lot of
Speaker 2: us were I flew the nest pretty young. I left
Speaker 2: tar when I was like seventeen. But Ellie and Hannah
Speaker 2: are like getting to the point where they're about to leave.
Speaker 2: Has been that Has that been difficult? Being like, oh
Speaker 2: am I no longer having that role that you've had
Speaker 2: for twenty four years.
Speaker 3: I think it's one of the other things you do
Speaker 3: learn when you have kids.
Speaker 4: And maybe I think about this because you know, you know,
Speaker 4: I was a working mum for big chunks of you know,
Speaker 4: your younger life, and your sisters as well, and particularly
Speaker 4: you know, when you were in primary school, and I
Speaker 4: think there's a sense that when kids are really young,
Speaker 4: they really need their parents, and they do for certain things.
Speaker 3: But you know, I found when you.
Speaker 4: Were in high school and your sisters as they've gotten older,
Speaker 4: that you continue to need your parents, but in different
Speaker 4: ways and for different things, and that sense changes. But
Speaker 4: I kind of thought that, you know, there was times
Speaker 4: when you guys were in high school, for instance, where
Speaker 4: you needed your parents around just as much as you
Speaker 4: did when we were in primary school. And so I
Speaker 4: think that's maybe one of the I don't know if
Speaker 4: myths is the right word, but there's so much focus on,
Speaker 4: you know, being there for kids when they're younger, and
Speaker 4: actually I think the pressure is there all the way
Speaker 4: through and just being clear about that and recognizing you
Speaker 4: have to try to find a way to be there
Speaker 4: for your kids no matter what else is going on.
Speaker 4: It's just one of the you know, one of the
Speaker 4: challenges but also one of the great joys of being
Speaker 4: a parent when when you feel like you are doing
Speaker 4: that and hopefully your kids, I think you're doing that well.
Speaker 2: It's so interesting because I feel like for a lot
Speaker 2: of my teenagers, I didn't really need you, well at
Speaker 2: least I thought I didn't need you. And then as
Speaker 2: soon as I went to university, and then actually like
Speaker 2: probably the second year of university, like the first year,
Speaker 2: I really was like I don't need my parents, Like
Speaker 2: I am a big girl, I am an adult now
Speaker 2: I live independently. And then it was like, oh, you
Speaker 2: get older, and it's like reversal and you're like, oh
Speaker 2: my gosh, I really need my mom and I'm like,
Speaker 2: I really like it's kind of coming back to the nest,
Speaker 2: Like it's such a big thing in your twenties that
Speaker 2: you fly the nest and you go off and you
Speaker 2: do your own thing. But then I think that the
Speaker 2: further along on that journey, the more you're like, actually,
Speaker 2: I want to come home, like and I want to
Speaker 2: see my parents and I want to call my parents.
Speaker 2: And I remember it was like my first like big
Speaker 2: heartbreak when I was at Uni that I was like
Speaker 2: suddenly so much more reliant on you guys. In a
Speaker 2: way that I didn't feel like I had been since
Speaker 2: I was a kid.
Speaker 4: Because I mean, I think you know, I've seen it
Speaker 4: in your sisters and well as well.
Speaker 3: Of course, you go through phases of where you're.
Speaker 4: Really independence is really important to you, and it's it's
Speaker 4: the actual independence, and I think it's the perception of
Speaker 4: independence as well. But I think you know, from my perspective,
Speaker 4: just being around sometimes is important then, so, you know,
Speaker 4: because I think it allows you to sort of go
Speaker 4: often and live your life, but knowing that if you
Speaker 4: need it, it's there, and even if you don't necessarily
Speaker 4: acknowledge it, I think there's a sense that you know,
Speaker 4: you your parents can provide a bit of a foundation
Speaker 4: and you know if you do need to come back
Speaker 4: or need support, we're there. But it's you know, the
Speaker 4: flip side is it's it's fantastic as a parent to
Speaker 4: see your kids going off and doing that. And then yeah,
Speaker 4: hopefully at different stages the perception or whatever of that
Speaker 4: independence becomes less important and you and that's the whole
Speaker 4: thing about your relationship kind of ebbs and flows and evolves,
Speaker 4: and it's yeah, it's a nice thing.
Speaker 2: What's been the hardest part about being a mother.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a good question.
Speaker 4: I mean, I think in all honesty, it's the sort
Speaker 4: of vulnerability and the uncertainty of it.
Speaker 3: Like you just, you know, with a partner, there's an
Speaker 3: element of it.
Speaker 4: But when you you know, when you have kids and
Speaker 4: you just love them so much and care for them
Speaker 4: so much, it's that you know what them go out
Speaker 4: into the world, and the equal measure of wanting them
Speaker 4: to be independent and excited and exploring the world and
Speaker 4: doing everything that you did, but you know, also sort
Speaker 4: of probably having a greater understanding of all the things
Speaker 4: that can go wrong, and just that balance of.
Speaker 3: Just you know, there's always just that little bit of fear.
Speaker 4: You never want harm or sadness or anything to come
Speaker 4: to your kids, but that's not the way they can
Speaker 4: live their lives. So it's just that uncertainty, and it's
Speaker 4: you know, it brings great excitement and emotion and joy,
Speaker 4: but every now and then, you know you're white knuckling
Speaker 4: in a bit.
Speaker 2: Really. It's so interesting because I even feel that way
Speaker 2: towards Hannah and Ellie, like my sisters, where Ellie is
Speaker 2: going to UNI, and I think about what my first
Speaker 2: two years of UNI are like, and I want her
Speaker 2: to have those experiences, but I also know like how
Speaker 2: chaotic and sometimes awful they were, and I'm like, maybe
Speaker 2: I'll just protect you from them, Like maybe you could
Speaker 2: just be a little girl, little a little maybe for
Speaker 2: a little bit longer and like not have those that independence.
Speaker 2: And I'm like, I feel that towards my sister. I
Speaker 2: can't imagine what that would feel like as a mother,
Speaker 2: being like I gave birth to this child who was
Speaker 2: now like doing like off in the world, and I
Speaker 2: like don't know where they are, don't know what they're
Speaker 2: doing at all times. What was like an experience where
Speaker 2: you said you'd be like white knuckling.
Speaker 4: It, Oh, it's you know this thing, Well, I don't know.
Speaker 4: You go overseas and you know, I'm.
Speaker 2: Thinking about that time I was in ampsinem and I
Speaker 2: called you and was like I'm dying possibly. And I
Speaker 2: wasn't even like on anything. I wasn't I know the
Speaker 2: connotations of like being an ampsinam. I was just like
Speaker 2: really tired, and I was like, I'm dying. I've decided
Speaker 2: like my anxiety and I called you guys like three
Speaker 2: am well.
Speaker 3: And it was it was the you know it was
Speaker 3: that like, maybe white.
Speaker 4: Knuckling is the wrong way to describe it, but there
Speaker 4: is a certain sense that when your phone rings in
Speaker 4: the middle of the night. You know, once you've kids,
Speaker 4: that that has a certain you leap to. You can
Speaker 4: leap to the wrong conclusion and so your heart so
Speaker 4: it's racing. You calm yourself down, but then you know
Speaker 4: there was an element of it would have been nice
Speaker 4: if you'd phone the next day to remind us that
Speaker 4: you're okay.
Speaker 2: No, no, that's not how it works. I was too,
Speaker 2: So I was eighteen and selfish. I wasn't gonna let
Speaker 2: you guys know I was okay.
Speaker 4: But but the other thing, too, is just the emotional
Speaker 4: sort of stuff and the emotional hurt. And so that's why,
Speaker 4: you know, white knuckling is not the right term. But
Speaker 4: you do expose yourself to feeling it. You know, you've
Speaker 4: experienced it yourself, but then to watch other people who
Speaker 4: you care about go through some of that stuff, which
Speaker 4: is just it's just life, but you know it's it's
Speaker 4: not it's not easy to see other people go through
Speaker 4: that and to be sad or to be you know,
Speaker 4: to be hursh and in some ways really the emotional
Speaker 4: stuff is harder than you know, going to get the
Speaker 4: stitches or whatever else. And you know, we've had conversations
Speaker 4: about this that you know, we try to do the
Speaker 4: right thing. We tried to raise each of you as
Speaker 4: independent people who could make their own decisions and who
Speaker 4: were resilient to those challenges. And sometimes it meant, you know,
Speaker 4: letting you find your way a bit. And I'm sure
Speaker 4: that felt hard and it was hard to watch and
Speaker 4: experience as well, but you've got to, you know, it's
Speaker 4: always trying to walk that line of doing things that
Speaker 4: you know, trying to be the parent that sets you
Speaker 4: up for success in your future, which sometimes you know
Speaker 4: comes across, as you know, not necessarily being the kindest
Speaker 4: or most protective parent at different stages when you're younger.
Speaker 2: I know exactly what you're referring to. And I remember
Speaker 2: being in primary school and all of the people, all
Speaker 2: of my friends had these like helicopter parents who had
Speaker 2: a drop of the heart would.
Speaker 1: Be there to fix.
Speaker 2: Things for them, and you guys were not those parents.
Speaker 2: You were like, oh, you're having problems with school, great,
Speaker 2: go and talk to your teacher, deal with it, like
Speaker 2: not that callous You won't like deal with it, like
Speaker 2: get out of our face, we don't want to hear
Speaker 2: from you. But it was like that thing, right, did
Speaker 2: have a point where I was like, gosh, I wish
Speaker 2: that my mom was just like a bit more angry
Speaker 2: on my behalf. And I'm sure you were, but you
Speaker 2: were like and now I'm super grateful for the fact
Speaker 2: that you made me be a problem solver and independent
Speaker 2: because it's I think a big part of my personality.
Speaker 2: But that was definitely times where I was like, gosh,
Speaker 2: I do just want my mom to scream at someone
Speaker 2: for me.
Speaker 4: Well, there were times when can I just say that
Speaker 4: little bit of independence which usually your dad let you
Speaker 4: exercise more than me. There were moments when I similarly
Speaker 4: went to pick you up from childcare and thought what
Speaker 4: is she wearing or what is she doing? And then
Speaker 4: packing your own lunch that had its highs and lows as.
Speaker 2: Well, Oh yeah, what was what? Did I pack? Junk food?
Speaker 3: Well? Just yeah, fair few crackers.
Speaker 2: Yeah, dah, I was growing girl, I was hungry. I
Speaker 2: was sharing them. I don't know what. So this is
Speaker 2: like a hot, hot question, but you have three daughters,
Speaker 2: did you ever want a son?
Speaker 4: Oh?
Speaker 3: Yeah, so interesting, isn't it.
Speaker 4: Look I think you're always I think you always sort
Speaker 4: of think, oh, you know, one of each, you know,
Speaker 4: at least like having one of each in the family,
Speaker 4: not necessarily just two kids.
Speaker 3: But yeah, I think you do. But can I be
Speaker 3: really honest.
Speaker 4: And say, well, for starters, I reckon With every one
Speaker 4: of my pregnancies, at least at one stage someone told
Speaker 4: me that I was having a boy, and no one
Speaker 4: ever told me I was having girls. But like with you,
Speaker 4: we were walking down the street in Fitzroy one morning
Speaker 4: and this Italian NNA came from across the street, like walked,
Speaker 4: you know, one hundred meters from across the street, came
Speaker 4: up to me and said.
Speaker 3: It's a boy. So that was pretty funny.
Speaker 4: And when I was pregnant with Hannah, I definitely thought
Speaker 4: she was a boy, just because she behaves so differently
Speaker 4: in the womb to the rest of you, because she
Speaker 4: was a little pocket rocket in there. But so after you,
Speaker 4: and like after you and Ellie, I have to say
Speaker 4: my greatest fear was that I was going to have
Speaker 4: a boy, because I was like, okay, I've got two
Speaker 4: girls now I think I understand them, and a boy
Speaker 4: is just gonna like throw me off now, but I.
Speaker 3: Think it's this is going to sound like such a cliche, but.
Speaker 4: And in all honesty, because after you were born, like
Speaker 4: you know, the whole the emergency sees a thing was
Speaker 4: a moment and at the time it was, you know,
Speaker 4: our doctor was fantastic. But when I look back, I thought, wow,
Speaker 4: that was a moment, and from then on you do
Speaker 4: just sort of think, well, I'm just I just feel
Speaker 4: blessed to have healthy kids, you know.
Speaker 3: So that's the truth of it.
Speaker 2: So I you didn't know what gender, did you? Was
Speaker 2: it a all three?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 2: No, way, I didn't know that. Yeah, oh that's so cute.
Speaker 4: But also the funny thing is that each time around
Speaker 4: we had three names for boys, but only one name
Speaker 4: for a girl.
Speaker 2: So they knew someone in the someone in the universe knew.
Speaker 2: So that's actually really interesting. I had no idea. But
Speaker 2: I do also think you didn't have sons, but you
Speaker 2: raised us like sons. I've said this since I was
Speaker 2: like younger. I'm like, you guys raised us like boys
Speaker 2: in a very like traditional stereotypical way that people raise
Speaker 2: children like boys. Just letting us get into so much mischief.
Speaker 2: We were always dirty. I'm pretty sure I only wore
Speaker 2: boys clothes for a long time. Buzz light your T shirt.
Speaker 3: Buzz light your outfits, honey, don't just say T shirts.
Speaker 3: You were the full kitten kaboodle.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well I was a super fan.
Speaker 3: I was.
Speaker 2: I was a stan I loved that man.
Speaker 3: Yea.
Speaker 2: But yeah, I just feel like there were so many
Speaker 2: ways that you guys kind of raised us without like
Speaker 2: an idea of gender. Like I maybe I'm just being
Speaker 2: remembering things that I want to remember them, but I
Speaker 2: don't remember having dolls. I think also was the fact
Speaker 2: that maybe, like the general you're lying now, come on, really,
Speaker 2: what doll did I have?
Speaker 4: Oh?
Speaker 3: My goodness, come on? What did you used to do
Speaker 3: to your barbies?
Speaker 2: Oh? I made weird Barbie. I used to cuddle the
Speaker 2: hair off. Yeah, and their fingers as well. I went
Speaker 2: the astra mark definitely.
Speaker 4: I don't remember the fingers, but you definitely were queen
Speaker 4: of the Barbie haircut.
Speaker 3: These were punk rocker barbies.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: I think one of the things too, that I've come
Speaker 4: to really appreciate, and you know, you make the decisions
Speaker 4: you do in terms of work and life and all
Speaker 4: the rest of it. But I've really come to the
Speaker 4: view that the fact that your dad's you know, spent
Speaker 4: a lot of time at home with each of you,
Speaker 4: and it was very clear for you, I think from
Speaker 4: my perspective, and I think it's because there were fewer
Speaker 4: men in the playground at the time, but having a
Speaker 4: father at homes, he'd let you take more risks, There's
Speaker 4: no doubt about it. And he was much more comfortable
Speaker 4: with that. And I can there were so many times
Speaker 4: when I talk about white knuckling, actually watching you race
Speaker 4: to the corner of the footpath on your bike every time,
Speaker 4: as you just scream down the street on your bike,
Speaker 4: I just used to think, oh my gosh, I hope
Speaker 4: she stops in time.
Speaker 3: And it's the same for all of yours, you know,
Speaker 3: each of your sisters.
Speaker 4: But you know, Bart was just he let you guys,
Speaker 4: you know, jump and run and climb, and you know
Speaker 4: he was famous in the I mean I remember coming
Speaker 4: around the corner of the playground at the school and
Speaker 4: seeing all of the mums kind of standing in a
Speaker 4: semi circle with their mouths open, and I knew what
Speaker 4: was going on, and it was Bart standing there throwing
Speaker 4: kids in the air, and they had this kind of
Speaker 4: half happy, half terrified look on their face, and it
Speaker 4: just so explains the difference of you know, I think
Speaker 4: how you guys were raised.
Speaker 2: Well, it's true because dad was a stay at home
Speaker 2: dad for our childhood. I knew that was a period
Speaker 2: where you were you stayed at home but you were
Speaker 2: still working. But he was like a full stay at
Speaker 2: home dad. And I know I'm talking about you, but
Speaker 2: that there was definitely moments that I remember being a
Speaker 2: kid where he faced a lot of discrimination for that,
Speaker 2: whilst you probably also face a lot of discrimination for
Speaker 2: being a working mum. Like neither of you had it
Speaker 2: easy to kind of subvert the gender norms. The one
Speaker 2: I always think of is the time that that woman
Speaker 2: wouldn't let her daughter come over because she thought he
Speaker 2: was a sex offender or something like that.
Speaker 3: It was someone who yeah, did I won't repeat it
Speaker 3: because it was illegal. It was illegal, Yeah, and it was,
Speaker 3: but yeah, he faced that. It was Yeah, he faced that.
Speaker 4: But equally, I'm not sure if you remember this, It
Speaker 4: was this was when I went to when I just
Speaker 4: started this period, so there's about five years when I
Speaker 4: was predominantly the stay at home parent. You were in
Speaker 4: high school by then, but your sisters were in primary school.
Speaker 4: And I remember going to a birthday party that one
Speaker 4: of Ellie's friends was having, and we were at that
Speaker 4: indoor playground and I arrived to the party and the
Speaker 4: woman who was hosting it, you know, sort of said
Speaker 4: to me, oh, you know, who's who's your child?
Speaker 3: And I said Ellie And she said well, she goes, oh,
Speaker 3: are you are you Bat's wife?
Speaker 4: And I said yes and she said oh, And all
Speaker 4: along I just thought he was this lovely single dad.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, And I just thought embarrassing for her.
Speaker 4: Oh, it's just it was just really brutal. And I thought,
Speaker 4: what and what do I think about all your mums
Speaker 4: who come and pick your kids up? And so it
Speaker 4: just it'spun both ways.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it really did.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I'm glad that it happened that way because
Speaker 2: I feel like we've got a really unique childhood and
Speaker 2: now it's so much more common. But back then, like
Speaker 2: it was so weird, like early early two thousands to
Speaker 2: see like a stay at home dad. It was.
Speaker 3: It was.
Speaker 4: It was a tough gig, it was, and both ways,
Speaker 4: like it was very hard for him, very lonely, to
Speaker 4: be honest, but and look, I don't you know, I'm
Speaker 4: not trying to say it was better or words for
Speaker 4: either of us, but it was.
Speaker 3: It was equally frustrating.
Speaker 4: If you'd rock up in the school yard, you know,
Speaker 4: I'd drop you off at school, and I'd be in
Speaker 4: a suit and on my way to work, and people
Speaker 4: would stop and ask me if I was coming to
Speaker 4: the book reading at eleven thirty. And you know, in
Speaker 4: contrast that the dads who were dropping off in their suits,
Speaker 4: no one expect everyone knew where they were going. They
Speaker 4: were all going to work, and they didn't get They
Speaker 4: got praise for making time to drop their kids off,
Speaker 4: and they weren't asked, you know, are you going.
Speaker 3: To stay longer?
Speaker 4: And it sounds like a small thing, but there was
Speaker 4: always a bit of It.
Speaker 3: Was hard not to feel a little bit of guilt.
Speaker 2: Yeah, or like feel like they're being like, oh, you're
Speaker 2: you're like a failure as a mother because you're not
Speaker 2: sticking around and win.
Speaker 4: Because I haven't. I haven't made the time for that.
Speaker 4: It was it just felt like that was the message.
Speaker 2: Here's the thing. I don't remember single book reading, so
Speaker 2: I don't think it mattered that you weren't there. You
Speaker 2: were there for the important things.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well I think I hope that that's the case.
Speaker 4: But definitely, regardless, you have to make the you make
Speaker 4: the decisions that have to work for you know, your family,
Speaker 4: and it's a combination of a whole bunch of things,
Speaker 4: and it's you know, you've got to have income and
Speaker 4: you know, ideally you have a house to live in
Speaker 4: and financial security and you know you've got to you
Speaker 4: just make those choices and they're not set and forget
Speaker 4: you kind of ebb and flow with that. But I
Speaker 4: think the hard the hard part, and the thing you
Speaker 4: probably get a bit more perspective on when you get
Speaker 4: a bit older, is that those opinions don't really matter,
Speaker 4: And yeah, you just got to You've got to glide
Speaker 4: past them a little bit and know that you're making
Speaker 4: the best decisions that you can, you know, and there's
Speaker 4: no you're never going to do it perfectly.
Speaker 2: Well, well, that kind of leads to my next question.
Speaker 2: Do you think you made any mistakes? Would you do
Speaker 2: anything differently?
Speaker 3: Did we make mistakes? One hundred and one mistakes?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I name a couple. I want something to blame
Speaker 2: you about I want something to hold over your head.
Speaker 3: Well, there's there's there's I don't know, there's lots of
Speaker 3: little things.
Speaker 4: You go back and you you know, partly you say
Speaker 4: things or you phrase something in a particular way, and
Speaker 4: you know, you don't think.
Speaker 3: About it, but it lands, it gets hurt in a
Speaker 3: particular way.
Speaker 4: And and you know when your kids recount things back
Speaker 4: to you, you didn't mean it that way, or you
Speaker 4: didn't the context, you saw the context differently. There's there's
Speaker 4: one hundred and one little things like that, and you know,
Speaker 4: all sorts of stuff. And I don't look back and
Speaker 4: think that there's one major thing that we did.
Speaker 3: You know, we.
Speaker 4: But you know that you didn't get everything right. And
Speaker 4: whether it was what you did or the tone that
Speaker 4: you did it with in the time, you just know that.
Speaker 4: But would you do anything differently? I think that's a
Speaker 4: hard I mean, in some ways, I think it's a
Speaker 4: hard question or even a harsh question, because you know,
Speaker 4: you do the best that you can at the time,
Speaker 4: and you know, I think one thing that's very hard
Speaker 4: on parents, if I'm honest, is that there's so much
Speaker 4: else going on. There's so much other context that your
Speaker 4: kids don't know about, nor should they, but it does
Speaker 4: mean that sometimes, you know, you come home from work,
Speaker 4: there's been a lot of stuff going down. There's a
Speaker 4: lot of stress or anxiety related to other things that
Speaker 4: you don't necessarily want to share with your kids, but
Speaker 4: it does inform some of the decisions you make or
Speaker 4: how you communicate them. And at the time, you know,
Speaker 4: I don't think your kids appreciate it.
Speaker 3: When you grow up, I think you do.
Speaker 4: But yeah, that's all in the mix. On a lighter note,
Speaker 4: I'll give you an example. Yeah, Ellie teases me all
Speaker 4: the time because I'm not sure if you remember this,
Speaker 4: but you know, I used to sing songs to you
Speaker 4: guys when I was putting you to bed, and Ellie
Speaker 4: in particular, always just wanted to sing along.
Speaker 2: She's so cute.
Speaker 4: She's still like that, but I just wanted to I
Speaker 4: just wanted to go to sleep. And so she teases
Speaker 4: me now about the fact that I would be quite
Speaker 4: firm on the like, no, you're not to.
Speaker 3: Sing the songs with me, And she says, you're singing all.
Speaker 4: These cute songs and all I wanted to do was
Speaker 4: sing along, But you would say no, you've got to
Speaker 4: go to bed now, So maybe.
Speaker 3: I'm so cute. Maybe on reflection, I would have done
Speaker 3: that differently.
Speaker 2: That's so cute because it's like, I forget that although
Speaker 2: we each grew up together, I'd never heard that, like
Speaker 2: we had such different memories of like our interactions with you.
Speaker 3: That's so cute.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, she's adorable.
Speaker 3: But I'm going to say she also well, I mean,
Speaker 3: so here's the other thing.
Speaker 4: So I'm trying to get her to sleep, because Hannah,
Speaker 4: of course didn't sleep at all. And so when she's
Speaker 4: recounting these stories, like we're in year one of a
Speaker 4: five year stage of you know, youngest daughter not sleeping
Speaker 4: so many nights.
Speaker 2: I'm going to ask you a few more questions around motherhood.
Speaker 2: And I want to ask whether you think that you
Speaker 2: were a feminist mother. Not just a feminist, but were
Speaker 2: you a feminist mother.
Speaker 4: So this is a really interesting question for me because
Speaker 4: for a couple of reasons. One because I actually think
Speaker 4: I've become more of a feminist as I've gotten older,
Speaker 4: and if I think about it in the context of
Speaker 4: not just being someone who believes in equal rights and
Speaker 4: lives that way and hopefully raises their girls that way,
Speaker 4: and I'll come back to it, but.
Speaker 3: I've probably i'd probably be a bit.
Speaker 4: Critical of me in terms of being a really strong
Speaker 4: advocate for other women. So I think in the way
Speaker 4: I lived, in the things I did. But if I
Speaker 4: think about, you know, feminist feminist, being an advocate and
Speaker 4: a really strong advocate for all women, I'm not sure
Speaker 4: i'd give myself a huge score on that, to be honest.
Speaker 4: So I'd look back and think I could have done
Speaker 4: more or have been more vocal and in different circumstances.
Speaker 4: But in terms of how I raised being a feminist mother, yeah,
Speaker 4: I think so. And yeah, and I think, you know,
Speaker 4: in terms of being an advocate for each of you,
Speaker 4: both as individuals but also as girls and young women, Yeah,
Speaker 4: I do.
Speaker 3: I do think so.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would say so as well. I do think
Speaker 2: that like this, but the brand of feminism that we
Speaker 2: had when we were younger was very white feminism. But
Speaker 2: I think also that was like just what was there
Speaker 2: at the time. Like I always think about like Hillary
Speaker 2: Clinton as that as like an example, but I also
Speaker 2: think that, like it's just like the process of unlearning
Speaker 2: your white feminism in a way, especially like where we lived,
Speaker 2: you know, we lived in like in Australia, in inner
Speaker 2: city Australia, where like the discussions about like intersectionality weren't
Speaker 2: being had back in like two thousand, like the early
Speaker 2: twenty tens. But now I feel like you're such a
Speaker 2: good example. Also, I feel like you're not giving yourself
Speaker 2: enough credit there, Like you being an advocate. I think
Speaker 2: you did a lot more than most other people. Think
Speaker 2: about all your friends, Like you have so many strong
Speaker 2: female friends who you advocate for in so many ways.
Speaker 3: Yeah, look, I appreciate that I do.
Speaker 4: There's just some things I've learned on the way through
Speaker 4: and some things in leadership roles where if I was
Speaker 4: being honest, you know, I think I could have done
Speaker 4: more and maybe I came late to some of the
Speaker 4: things that I should have been, you know, doing more
Speaker 4: of and being much more supportive and more demonstrably supportive
Speaker 4: I think, and just recognizing the importance of that over
Speaker 4: demonstration of being a champion or supporter of people, not
Speaker 4: having it be sort of implied or assumed.
Speaker 2: M M. How do you think that our relationship has
Speaker 2: changed as I've become an adult? Do you think we've
Speaker 2: gotten closer?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 4: No, I definitely think so. But I think it's one
Speaker 4: of those things that, yeah, I don't know, like it's
Speaker 4: I think you're it's just a different type of closeness, right,
Speaker 4: Like there's maybe a weird word, but there's an intimacy
Speaker 4: when you're with your kids when you're younger, and a
Speaker 4: closeness and a and a dependency that that's you know,
Speaker 4: that's really close, right, and and a lot of fun
Speaker 4: in that and that you know, that fun piece is
Speaker 4: a closeness that's pretty unique to that younger state when
Speaker 4: your kids are younger, and it's it's just lovely. But
Speaker 4: you know, as your kids grow up and certainly with you,
Speaker 4: you know, being able to have grown up conversations and
Speaker 4: you know what I think it is is being able to.
Speaker 3: Experience and appreciate that respect. And you know, there's not a.
Speaker 4: Lot of people that you go through life with where
Speaker 4: you just really look at them and think, I really.
Speaker 3: Respect who you are as a person, and well.
Speaker 4: And I've got you know, I feel lucky to have
Speaker 4: a lot of really good friends who I do really respect,
Speaker 4: but you know, there's not that many people. And anyway,
Speaker 4: it's fun to sort of have been a part of
Speaker 4: that and to have seen you grow up and then
Speaker 4: to have so much respect and appreciation and admiration for
Speaker 4: what you've done. And I guess, to be honest, if
Speaker 4: I'm being a little bit egotistical, you sort of feel
Speaker 4: like you're a little bit.
Speaker 3: Of part of that and it's very special.
Speaker 2: I do like to give you guys a lot of credit.
Speaker 2: I will say, Oh.
Speaker 3: I don't like I don't want too much. It's just
Speaker 3: it's just that little bit where you sort of like
Speaker 3: every now and then, ah, yeah, she's mine.
Speaker 2: I think Dad does it more than you do. No
Speaker 2: comment diplomatic. Do you find it weird when you know
Speaker 2: when I was like in my as I got into
Speaker 2: my early twenties, did you find it weird when I
Speaker 2: would talk about my relationships or like sex or anything
Speaker 2: like that. Was that weird? Because I feel like there
Speaker 2: was a point where it kind of yeah, I don't know,
Speaker 2: I was like, am I treating my mom more like
Speaker 2: my friend or like my mom?
Speaker 3: Yeah? I didn't find it weird.
Speaker 4: I mean occasionally there was an early podcast that I'm
Speaker 4: not sure if you remember this, but you said something
Speaker 4: along the lines of, oh, my parents might be listening,
Speaker 4: and I jokingly was saying, yeah, I rang you up
Speaker 4: and said yes, I'm listening, which you know, of course
Speaker 4: was not contemporary, but nonetheless, so every now and then
Speaker 4: there's maybe a bit, you know, too much information. I
Speaker 4: think the hardest part is that I was probably I'm
Speaker 4: very close to my mum, your grandma, you know that.
Speaker 3: And we probably share more information now.
Speaker 4: But when I was younger, so it was me and
Speaker 4: my brother, but I had a step brother and a
Speaker 4: stepsister and that sort of mixed marriage, and you know,
Speaker 4: my mum and my stepfather were sort of off, kind
Speaker 4: of building their own life together, and the easiest thing
Speaker 4: for me to do was just you know, play my
Speaker 4: cards close to my chest.
Speaker 3: So I didn't share a lot of information.
Speaker 4: It wasn't really letting anyone know what I was up
Speaker 4: to live in my own life. And like you, I
Speaker 4: was at UNI when I was seventeen and so and
Speaker 4: then you know, my parents moved into State, so I was,
Speaker 4: like you, really independent, but in a kind of flip scenario,
Speaker 4: if you like. And so I probably wasn't sharing as
Speaker 4: much as information, and you know, I think it was
Speaker 4: just getting used to what you were prepared to sort
Speaker 4: of share as well. It wasn't that it was right
Speaker 4: or wrong or I felt uncomfortable. It was just different
Speaker 4: to perhaps the way I had been at that age,
Speaker 4: and so just a bit of getting used to that.
Speaker 2: That's so interesting are the things you don't want to hear.
Speaker 4: Maybe there's maybe a bit of day information that before
Speaker 4: the not to be named boyfriend arrived on the scene,
Speaker 4: that I went a little bit whilst not wanting to
Speaker 4: look uninterested, was a bit la la la in my brain.
Speaker 2: I feel like I'm very good where i'd like, I
Speaker 2: don't talk talk about them buying name or introduce you
Speaker 2: until it's like serious, like until we've been dating for
Speaker 2: at least six months. So I feel like my current
Speaker 2: boyfriend slash just not in my current my boyfriend will
Speaker 2: be for a long time. That just kind of like
Speaker 2: popped onto the scene and then you, guys, I think
Speaker 2: I mentioned him and then you met him like a
Speaker 2: month later.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's fine, it was it's more, I mean, if
Speaker 4: I'm being really honest, it's not that it's more the
Speaker 4: the more casual relationships.
Speaker 2: Oh you didn't approve.
Speaker 3: It's not that I didn't approve. I just didn't need
Speaker 3: to know about them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm just gonna say this for the listeners. The
Speaker 2: information that I was giving my mom was like, oh,
Speaker 2: a man was at my house last night, and you'd
Speaker 2: be like, ah, no, no, he wasn't.
Speaker 3: God, that's true. That's not true.
Speaker 4: The funny one was when I picked you up on
Speaker 4: a Saturday morning because we were flying back to Melbourne
Speaker 4: for Grandma's birthday and you were furiatively texting someone in
Speaker 4: the backseat of the uber, which was the person who
Speaker 4: was still.
Speaker 3: At your place. Did you know that, Yeah, because you.
Speaker 4: Ended up having to tell me because I couldn't figure
Speaker 4: out what all the texting was going on about.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was Oh my god, I completely forgot about that.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that's so true. That did happen. And the
Speaker 2: thing was, you know what it was was this was
Speaker 2: it was actually not good because my house where I'm
Speaker 2: moving out literally today, but my current house, once you're
Speaker 2: in the house and the door is locked, you can't
Speaker 2: get out without a key, and it's metal bars all
Speaker 2: over the windows, all over the doors and the hall
Speaker 2: of the doors were locked and there were no keys
Speaker 2: in the house and my roommates weren't coming back until
Speaker 2: that evening, so I accidentally locked that man in my
Speaker 2: house for eight hours before he could get out, and
Speaker 2: I was and I was like, we were running late
Speaker 2: for our flight. I was like, and well, obviously he's
Speaker 2: not around anymore. So I'm not gonna say I'm gonna
Speaker 2: be like, sorry, but can you imagine if he was listening, Sorry,
Speaker 2: I locked you in my house for eight hours. That's
Speaker 2: so funny. That's so funny. Business. I want to talk
Speaker 2: about work because I was very lucky that I had
Speaker 2: a mother like you, who was very very independently successful.
Speaker 2: No NEPO babies here. You worked very very hard, but
Speaker 2: you also to very unconventional way to success like you got.
Speaker 2: You know, it was crazy to hear when I first
Speaker 2: went to Union that you actually got asked to leave
Speaker 2: your university. You got kicked out from the economics department.
Speaker 2: And now you are an economist and you are a
Speaker 2: very good economist and you're also a CEO. What do
Speaker 2: you think with some of the hardest parts about breaking
Speaker 2: into that male dominated industry.
Speaker 3: Well, first of all, let's not just slide over.
Speaker 4: Getting kicked out of UNI, because I do actually think
Speaker 4: it's an important message. I think there's so much pressure
Speaker 4: on people at high school and in their twenties around,
Speaker 4: you know, going to union, just doing everything, getting amazing grades,
Speaker 4: you know, paying for a life that's more and more
Speaker 4: expensive by the day, you know, and doing all the
Speaker 4: extracurricular stuff so that you end up with a CV
Speaker 4: that gets you into a job that you want, right
Speaker 4: And I just think this, you know, there's just so
Speaker 4: much pressure on I think, and to understand where you're
Speaker 4: going and what.
Speaker 3: You think you should be doing.
Speaker 4: So I actually make a point of talking about the
Speaker 4: fact that it took me, you know, quite a few
Speaker 4: years to get through UNI. I was fortunate didn't cost
Speaker 4: what it costs to you guys now, but I did
Speaker 4: fail two years of university because I had no idea
Speaker 4: what I wanted to do. So I actually started off
Speaker 4: doing a psychology degree double degree and really struggled, and
Speaker 4: I was doing a whole bunch of sport and athletics
Speaker 4: and just didn't know what I wanted to do. Decided
Speaker 4: I didn't want to be a clinical psychologist. But yeah,
Speaker 4: it was just sort of floundering.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 3: When I came out of UNI, I couldn't I couldn't
Speaker 3: get a job interview because your agrees were so bad.
Speaker 4: My transcript was crap, And yeah, I'd done all these
Speaker 4: other things, and I'd worked and I you know, I
Speaker 4: had competed successfully in athletics and blah blah blah. But
Speaker 4: you know, it was just on a wing at a
Speaker 4: pres for me to go, well, those grades don't reflect
Speaker 4: who I really am, and they're like, well whatever. So
Speaker 4: I took a year off and worked for a little while,
Speaker 4: traveled overseas, which was a great experience. You know, I
Speaker 4: met some people who just didn't have the opportunities that
Speaker 4: I had, including a young woman studying economics, you know,
Speaker 4: in in Turkey of all places, who was just never
Speaker 4: going to have the opportunities that I had. And so
Speaker 4: I came back and started studying again to sort of
Speaker 4: show that I could get through it, and then ended
Speaker 4: up really enjoying it. So I guess, you know, at
Speaker 4: the risk of sort of waffling on a bit about it,
Speaker 4: I do think it's an important message for people to
Speaker 4: life isn't a straight line, and as long as you're
Speaker 4: sort of learning and growing and heading in a direction
Speaker 4: that you're enjoying, you know, just keep going with it
Speaker 4: and when it stops working, then go and do something else.
Speaker 2: It's so interesting because you have lived so many lives
Speaker 2: that like I wasn't there for Like I always think
Speaker 2: about how, you know, I've known you my entire life,
Speaker 2: but you only known me for the last twenty four years,
Speaker 2: and there were all these things that happened before me
Speaker 2: that you have like a little wisdom from, like you
Speaker 2: were my age once and like just going through the
Speaker 2: insane level of like confusion and like big life changes.
Speaker 2: And I do think that's a really nice message, and
Speaker 2: I think that's one that you really always instilled in
Speaker 2: us of like there is not a clear blueprint for
Speaker 2: what creates a good life. You're allowed to like take
Speaker 2: time to figure it out. And obviously we're all kind
Speaker 2: of doing that now. Like what is this job? I
Speaker 2: don't know what this This wasn't a job when I
Speaker 2: was a kid, Actually it kind of was. Do you
Speaker 2: remember we used to always listen to the radio This
Speaker 2: American Life. I love that show. So I feel like
Speaker 2: that was such a huge inspiration. Did you experience a
Speaker 2: lot of like imposter syndrome going back to UNI or
Speaker 2: when you were applying for jobs again because your transcript
Speaker 2: was so not great?
Speaker 4: Well, it's really it's really funny like on imposter syndrome. Yes,
Speaker 4: all through my career and you know I've done, I've
Speaker 4: chopped and changed a little bit and absolutely like I
Speaker 4: can like like imposter syndrome when I started my first job,
Speaker 4: because I started at Federal Treasury, and you know, to
Speaker 4: get in there was challenging and there were you know,
Speaker 4: my co cohort of grads was just so impressive. Like
Speaker 4: in some ways, I was pretty focused on what I
Speaker 4: wanted to get out of that. I had a really
Speaker 4: clear objective and so in some ways I kind of
Speaker 4: ignored a whole bunch of other stuff, like if I'm
Speaker 4: really honest, and you know, back to the question about
Speaker 4: feminism or whatever, Like I had a goal and I
Speaker 4: just ran hard at it, and in some ways I
Speaker 4: was you know, people sort of said to me, well,
Speaker 4: you were sort of singular focus on that opportunity, you know.
Speaker 3: Was probably too much and whatever.
Speaker 4: But you know, I don't think they would have said
Speaker 4: that if I was a man, to be honest, and.
Speaker 2: It worked no way, So it didn't work you are now.
Speaker 2: But so it was like you were doing economics, which
Speaker 2: at the time a bit of a boys game. And
Speaker 2: then also business is like the commerce kind of the
Speaker 2: commerce side of it as well.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think.
Speaker 4: Sorry, I'm sorry to interrupt. I also wanted to come
Speaker 4: back on the imposter syndrome and my results. When I
Speaker 4: was interviewed for Treasury, the person who was interviewing me
Speaker 4: asked me precisely once about those my results and they
Speaker 4: and they said, what happened here?
Speaker 3: And I told them and that was it and never, what.
Speaker 2: Did you say, You're just like I just didn't know
Speaker 2: what I wanted.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I said, I was doing all these other things.
Speaker 3: I had way too much on. I didn't know what
Speaker 3: I wanted. I was floundering.
Speaker 4: I came back with intent and here's the results, and
Speaker 4: that was fine, and sorry to come back. The reason
Speaker 4: I wanted to come back to that is because fast
Speaker 4: forward a few years later, when I was actually interviewing
Speaker 4: graduates for Treasury, there's a bunch of people being put
Speaker 4: on piles who whose results kind of looked a bit
Speaker 4: like mine, and I wanted to interview one or two
Speaker 4: of them, and a few people in the room were
Speaker 4: just like, no way, And so I fessed up and said, well,
Speaker 4: you wouldn't have I wouldn't be here, like, don't.
Speaker 2: You want to know.
Speaker 4: Like, there's one person in particular, I was looking at
Speaker 4: their results and they'd gone from really poor results to
Speaker 4: just knocking out of the pack, and I said, don't
Speaker 4: you want to know what happened there? Don't don't you
Speaker 4: because that switch has flipped and I want to know
Speaker 4: what's gone on and what this person is up to
Speaker 4: because that's the person I want to talk to. And
Speaker 4: so again, it was just a kind of an interesting
Speaker 4: life lesson if you like.
Speaker 3: Boys jobs. Yeah, like I.
Speaker 4: Probably Treasury, there were fair few female grads, and you know,
Speaker 4: we were very focused on making sure we continue to
Speaker 4: recruit them. So yes, it was male dominated. It was
Speaker 4: more that I had opportunities to be in really interesting
Speaker 4: meetings where everyone who is more senior.
Speaker 3: Was male, and that was good. It's I don't.
Speaker 4: Know, maybe this is a funny side bar, but my
Speaker 4: name's Melinda. People sometimes call me mel but at work
Speaker 4: and particularly at Treasury. When I was at Treasury, that's
Speaker 4: when I decided that people had to call me Milinda because.
Speaker 2: Because mel sounds like a mail nate as well Mel Gibson,
Speaker 2: and that was too dismissive.
Speaker 4: Oh really, I went into my male boss introduced me
Speaker 4: one day and said, oh, this is mel and it
Speaker 4: was just sort of this, it was just a throwaway line,
Speaker 4: and I thought, I can't have that throwaway line, and
Speaker 4: so so.
Speaker 2: You needed the extra syllables for the extra legitimacy.
Speaker 3: Well it was, but it was just all part and
Speaker 3: parcel of how you presented.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I actually agree with that.
Speaker 4: So I just thought I can't have him just saying that,
Speaker 4: and you know, we work closely together, but it just
Speaker 4: felt like it was a trivialization of my introduction.
Speaker 2: So yeah, so you're kind of like at this point
Speaker 2: in your career now where you just I'm sure you
Speaker 2: feel pretty secure, like you're a bit of a boss bitch.
Speaker 2: It's true though, and I know that like that word
Speaker 2: like like she is such a boss, Like what is
Speaker 2: it like, go a boss? It's girl boss. Is kind
Speaker 2: of funny because it's no like, yeah, it's used very dismissively,
Speaker 2: like you're a girl boss. But having come through so
Speaker 2: many stages and like, I don't think you're going to
Speaker 2: retire anytime soon, unless you you are, and then that's
Speaker 2: a surprise for me. What advice would you give me
Speaker 2: right now at this stage in my career, and I
Speaker 2: know it's very different to what you're what you were
Speaker 2: doing at twenty four. Like you hadn't even graduated at
Speaker 2: twenty four, had you know, you wouldn't have you would
Speaker 2: have just gotten your master's.
Speaker 3: Oh I graduated a couple of degrees.
Speaker 2: Oh, but what would you do now? What advice would
Speaker 2: you give me at this stage?
Speaker 3: Well?
Speaker 4: Can I can I ask a slightly different question? And
Speaker 4: then what can I respond to a question you haven't asked?
Speaker 4: And then I'll respond to that.
Speaker 2: Question you're asking the questions now you're taking over the show,
Speaker 2: Well you can if you want. Now I'm joking, you
Speaker 2: can totally do that.
Speaker 3: The one thing reference to sort of being.
Speaker 4: The sort of boss bitch language or whatever, or labeled
Speaker 4: girl boss or whatever you want to call it, like
Speaker 4: I do.
Speaker 3: I think I did want to say, there's one.
Speaker 4: Thing I've really enjoyed about leading an organization is being
Speaker 4: able to sort of set the tone and the values.
Speaker 4: And I think people can think about a whole bunch
Speaker 4: of things that being a CEO means or whatever, and
Speaker 4: there's a lot of there's different responsibilities. But probably the
Speaker 4: one thing I didn't really think about and underestimated was
Speaker 4: that was the sense of satisfaction that you get out
Speaker 4: of kind of being able to set the tone for
Speaker 4: an organization.
Speaker 3: And I think the reason that's.
Speaker 4: I'm kind of I'm using as a bit of a
Speaker 4: segue into your question because I think it's like it's
Speaker 4: it's caused me to sort of reflect on how you
Speaker 4: set your tone through your career, and I guess that's
Speaker 4: that would be my kind of advice. I guess is
Speaker 4: to you know, to think about, you know, who you
Speaker 4: are and what sort of person you want to be
Speaker 4: through the work that you do, and to not be
Speaker 4: necessarily confined by thinking about a particular role or a
Speaker 4: particular point in your career, but to you know, think
Speaker 4: about the things that you enjoy doing because you do
Speaker 4: them well and because you can have an impact whatever
Speaker 4: that is, and just that sort of tone and the
Speaker 4: values the way you want to live your life to
Speaker 4: find ways to live that through work, and that's probably
Speaker 4: something that.
Speaker 3: You gain a confidence to be able to do through
Speaker 3: your career.
Speaker 4: And when I look back, you know, it's probably one
Speaker 4: of the things you feel less confident doing when you're
Speaker 4: you know, early on in a job or whatever that
Speaker 4: you sort of feel sometimes you have to behave a
Speaker 4: particular way. It will be in a particular role. And
Speaker 4: you know, I was a company director at a very
Speaker 4: young age. I was the only woman on the first
Speaker 4: boards i joined, and there's certainly a lot of pressure
Speaker 4: to sort of be the persona of that and and
Speaker 4: I guess that's probably my bit of advice. If you
Speaker 4: can find a way to do that faster than I did,
Speaker 4: that would be my advice.
Speaker 2: Or to find to find like your mission, well like
Speaker 2: you're like.
Speaker 4: But also just just to be to be who you
Speaker 4: are and to know that that's you know, you don't
Speaker 4: have to be the you know, the the persona. You
Speaker 4: don't have to perform that role in the way other
Speaker 4: people have performed that role or be that person or
Speaker 4: and so it's just trying to be true to who
Speaker 4: you are as a person and bring that into your work.
Speaker 4: It's probably what i'd put on the table.
Speaker 2: Thanks, mam. I appreciate the advice. Now. I think that's
Speaker 2: all the questions that I have. Are there any more
Speaker 2: questions you would like to ask yourself if you.
Speaker 3: Feel the need No, no, no, that's it.
Speaker 2: You're yeah, that's good. I'm glad. I feel like We
Speaker 2: covered a lot of bases here. We talked about the hood,
Speaker 2: we talk about we talked about feminism, we talked about
Speaker 2: how you were a terrible parent and everything. I have
Speaker 2: to blame you for just kidding. Nothing was the answer.
Speaker 2: So thank you so much for coming on absolute pleasure.
Speaker 2: I could think of nothing else I'd rather be doing. Yeah, well,
Speaker 2: I'll that's so sweet. Why did that make me embarrassed?
Speaker 2: And like, oh, thanks mom? No, it was actually so nice,
Speaker 2: And I feel like it's so nice that we'll have
Speaker 2: this for like, it will be on the internet for
Speaker 2: a while and we can listen back to this when
Speaker 2: I'm thinking about putting you in a home or something.
Speaker 4: Oh, you can just play it on repeat and I'll
Speaker 4: feel happy.
Speaker 2: Oh, I'm not going to put you in a home.
Speaker 2: Do you want to be putting a home?
Speaker 3: It depends, it depends. You may want to put me
Speaker 3: in home.
Speaker 2: No, I won't for as long as possible.
Speaker 3: I'm looking forward to coming and sleeping on your couch tomorrow.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, yeah, my mum's coming to stay in
Speaker 2: my new place tomorrow. It's very comfy. I actually had
Speaker 2: a lie down on it before I tested it for you.
Speaker 2: Perfect I can't believe I'm making you sleep on the couch,
Speaker 2: but unfortunately the bed's taken.
Speaker 3: Well.
Speaker 2: Thank you again for coming on. As always, if you
Speaker 2: enjoyed this episode, please feel free to leave a five
Speaker 2: star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you are listening
Speaker 2: right now, share it with a friend if they would
Speaker 2: like to hear it, And if you have any further
Speaker 2: episode suggestions questions for my girl boss mum, please feel
Speaker 2: free to dm me on Instagram at that Psychology podcast
Speaker 2: or my personal at gemmas Bag and we will be
Speaker 2: back next week for another episode.