1
00:00:04,440 --> 00:00:09,280
Speaker 1: Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties,

2
00:00:09,920 --> 00:00:12,280
Speaker 1: the podcast where we talk through some of the big

3
00:00:12,520 --> 00:00:16,880
Speaker 1: life changes and transitions of our twenties and what they

4
00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:18,720
Speaker 1: mean for our psychology.

5
00:00:23,079 --> 00:00:25,759
Speaker 2: Today is International Women's Day, and I thought what better

6
00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:28,120
Speaker 2: way to celebrate than to bring my mum on the

7
00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:33,400
Speaker 2: show to discuss motherhood, feminism, being a leader, a successful

8
00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:36,320
Speaker 2: woman in a male dominated industry, all of the above.

9
00:00:36,800 --> 00:00:39,360
Speaker 2: She is a pretty cool lady and my personal hero.

10
00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:42,760
Speaker 2: I know that sounds cliche, but I am super lucky

11
00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:45,080
Speaker 2: to have had such a wonderful role model who has

12
00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:47,640
Speaker 2: a lot of wisdom to share, and I thought you

13
00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:50,280
Speaker 2: guys could benefit from some of that wisdom as well.

14
00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:54,480
Speaker 2: This episode is part of Iheart's International Women's Day initiative

15
00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:57,840
Speaker 2: called Women Take the Mic. You can find a bunch

16
00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:00,960
Speaker 2: of other interviews just like this one by so Women

17
00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:04,600
Speaker 2: Take the Mic wherever you get your podcasts. Let's jump

18
00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:12,640
Speaker 2: into the interview. Hello everybody, Welcome back to the show.

19
00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:16,520
Speaker 2: Welcome back to the podcast, new listeners, old listeners, wherever

20
00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:18,560
Speaker 2: you are in the world, it is so great to

21
00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:21,119
Speaker 2: have you here. Back for another episode as we break

22
00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:23,959
Speaker 2: down the psychology of our twenties. Today, we're going to

23
00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:26,600
Speaker 2: be doing something a little bit different. I know I

24
00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:30,080
Speaker 2: say that every guest is my favorite, but honestly, this

25
00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:32,559
Speaker 2: one I think kind of has to take the cake

26
00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:37,319
Speaker 2: by obligation because they are blood. I thought, it's International

27
00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:40,880
Speaker 2: Women's Day today. Who better to talk to who is

28
00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:44,399
Speaker 2: more my hero than my own mother? So today I'm

29
00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:46,959
Speaker 2: bringing on my mum to come and have a chat

30
00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:51,680
Speaker 2: with me as we talk about mother daughter dynamics, motherhood,

31
00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:55,840
Speaker 2: being a successful woman in business as she is, and

32
00:01:56,080 --> 00:01:59,680
Speaker 2: feminism and all the good things that come with it. So, hey, Mom,

33
00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:02,760
Speaker 2: how you going? Hey Jim, you were saying to me

34
00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:04,120
Speaker 2: that you were nervous before this.

35
00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:09,160
Speaker 3: I'm a bit nervous. Why Ah, because I probably haven't

36
00:02:09,200 --> 00:02:10,239
Speaker 3: been well.

37
00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:13,400
Speaker 4: I haven't been interviewed by you before, and it's a

38
00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:14,400
Speaker 4: different dynamic.

39
00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:17,119
Speaker 3: And of course you know I want to do well

40
00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:17,400
Speaker 3: by you.

41
00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:19,720
Speaker 2: Oh my god, you want to impress the listeners.

42
00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:21,720
Speaker 3: Well, I just I don't want to let you down.

43
00:02:21,880 --> 00:02:22,160
Speaker 3: I don't.

44
00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:25,200
Speaker 4: I don't want to come across as not being worthy

45
00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:26,200
Speaker 4: of your wonderful pod.

46
00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:28,200
Speaker 2: Oh that's okay. I will defend you to the death.

47
00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:31,880
Speaker 2: If anyone says anything, I'll be like, that's my mother

48
00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:35,120
Speaker 2: you're talking about. So block deleted. I honestly think this

49
00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:37,160
Speaker 2: will be a great chat because we have a good

50
00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:41,040
Speaker 2: relationship both as a mother and daughter and as kind

51
00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:42,000
Speaker 2: of friends as well.

52
00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:44,720
Speaker 4: Yeah me too, I'm looking I'm looking forward to it.

53
00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:46,760
Speaker 4: It's just it's a different dynamic for me.

54
00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:49,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm in charge. Yeah, you're in my turf.

55
00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:50,560
Speaker 3: I can't hang up.

56
00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:54,400
Speaker 2: You can't hang up with blood related So I wanted

57
00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:56,560
Speaker 2: to bring you on because obviously it's International Woman's Day,

58
00:02:57,120 --> 00:03:00,160
Speaker 2: and I was thinking, let's do a special episode this,

59
00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:04,400
Speaker 2: Let's do an episode talking about what it means to

60
00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:07,440
Speaker 2: be a woman, to identify as a woman, and part

61
00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:11,359
Speaker 2: of what comes with that is also like a discussion

62
00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:15,600
Speaker 2: around like our relationship with our mothers and a relationship

63
00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:18,800
Speaker 2: with our parents and all these other things. How like

64
00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:22,320
Speaker 2: our childhood informs the women that we grow up to be.

65
00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:25,000
Speaker 2: And I thought that we could do a little deep

66
00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:27,760
Speaker 2: dive into what it was like for you to become

67
00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:31,440
Speaker 2: my mom. Because I'm the oldest daughter, you're also the

68
00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:34,560
Speaker 2: oldest daughter, and just like what I was like as

69
00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:36,600
Speaker 2: a child, what it was like becoming a mother, like

70
00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:40,080
Speaker 2: I said, and then what it's like to run a

71
00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:43,200
Speaker 2: business basically, which you do well. You're a CEO.

72
00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:46,560
Speaker 3: So that's like, well, certainly plenty to talk about.

73
00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:49,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm going to start with a hard hitting question. Okay,

74
00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:51,960
Speaker 2: go for it, because I wanted to know this as well.

75
00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:55,000
Speaker 2: What was I like as a child? Do you remember?

76
00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:57,360
Speaker 2: Be embarrassed if you don't know.

77
00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:00,560
Speaker 3: The funny thing is you really do remember.

78
00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:03,760
Speaker 4: And I suspect that there's I need to be a

79
00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:07,360
Speaker 4: bit careful because of course memories change over time, and

80
00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:10,080
Speaker 4: you think you remember certain things. I'm sure you remember

81
00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:12,160
Speaker 4: some things differently to the way I remember them.

82
00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:15,800
Speaker 3: We can get to that. But actually, the really.

83
00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:17,360
Speaker 4: Interesting thing is when I sort of think back on

84
00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:20,159
Speaker 4: you and your sisters, I've got really clear memories of

85
00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:23,800
Speaker 4: the days each of you were born, my sort of

86
00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:28,840
Speaker 4: very clear first impressions of each of you, and and

87
00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:30,000
Speaker 4: it was it's funny.

88
00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:30,360
Speaker 3: You're all different.

89
00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:33,360
Speaker 4: I remember, so what I remember of you the day

90
00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:35,520
Speaker 4: you were born, and by the way you had to

91
00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:38,480
Speaker 4: come in, you know, with the bang. You were an

92
00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:40,400
Speaker 4: emergency as a child.

93
00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:43,600
Speaker 3: So so there was that, There was that.

94
00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:47,800
Speaker 4: But the thing I remember was in amongst all of

95
00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:50,919
Speaker 4: this sort of calm chaos, was was you sort of

96
00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:55,480
Speaker 4: sort of coming out with these big eyes, just sort

97
00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:58,200
Speaker 4: of slowly blinking at the world as if to say,

98
00:04:58,240 --> 00:04:59,000
Speaker 4: you know, where am I?

99
00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:00,159
Speaker 3: What? What if I come to?

100
00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:02,960
Speaker 4: But not not crying so much and just sort of,

101
00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:05,359
Speaker 4: you know, trying to sort of focus straight out of

102
00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:07,279
Speaker 4: the gate, trying to focus on what was around you

103
00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:09,360
Speaker 4: and trying to make sense of it is what it felt.

104
00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:12,120
Speaker 2: Like, Oh I can't remember that.

105
00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:16,480
Speaker 4: But yeah, and then you know you were quiet as

106
00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:18,760
Speaker 4: as a little baby for the first week or so,

107
00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:19,800
Speaker 4: but that changed.

108
00:05:20,640 --> 00:05:22,360
Speaker 3: But the other thing too, is that I think.

109
00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:25,479
Speaker 4: The other really strong kind of recollection for me was

110
00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:28,960
Speaker 4: that very early on you realize that your kids come

111
00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:33,280
Speaker 4: out with their own personalities. And because I too had

112
00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:35,400
Speaker 4: done a bit of psychology in my time, I think

113
00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:38,760
Speaker 4: there's that whole nature versus nurture sort of thing that

114
00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:41,719
Speaker 4: goes through, and I think you start off thinking, you,

115
00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:43,600
Speaker 4: you know, you're going to be this amazing.

116
00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:45,560
Speaker 3: Parent and it's all going to be nurture.

117
00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:48,720
Speaker 4: But you know, probably because you are a first it

118
00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:51,320
Speaker 4: was a pretty overwhelming kind of sense of, oh, this

119
00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:55,040
Speaker 4: little person has come out you know, with a sent

120
00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:57,400
Speaker 4: with their own sense of who they are, their own personality,

121
00:05:58,760 --> 00:05:59,279
Speaker 4: and then.

122
00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:01,320
Speaker 3: What were you like as a kid. I've you know,

123
00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:03,200
Speaker 3: you were strong minded.

124
00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:05,839
Speaker 2: Oh that hasn't changed much.

125
00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:07,200
Speaker 3: I know it hasn't, but you were.

126
00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:11,719
Speaker 4: You really had strong views even as a youngster. But

127
00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:15,400
Speaker 4: you were happy and as the first child. For us,

128
00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:17,960
Speaker 4: the biggest thing was you were a sleeper. And my

129
00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:20,160
Speaker 4: GOLLI gosh, we love that.

130
00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:22,760
Speaker 2: That's so cute. I love that you said I came

131
00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:24,960
Speaker 2: out and I was quiet for the first week, and

132
00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:27,880
Speaker 2: the irony being now I literally talk on the internet

133
00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:31,320
Speaker 2: for my job, which is so funny. And I am

134
00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:33,760
Speaker 2: a bit of a yapper obviously. I love a yar.

135
00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:34,600
Speaker 2: I love a yar.

136
00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:37,360
Speaker 4: You were just a quiet little Mulu when you were

137
00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:39,240
Speaker 4: just a wee little baby.

138
00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:41,800
Speaker 2: And I was your favorite obviously for the first five

139
00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:42,560
Speaker 2: years at least.

140
00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:46,680
Speaker 4: Well you as about and I say you're a favorite

141
00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:47,400
Speaker 4: oldest daughter.

142
00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:49,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's so diplomatic. I still think that you'll have

143
00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:52,920
Speaker 2: a favorite. You just can't say. And I think that

144
00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:56,279
Speaker 2: I'm yours, hopefully my younger sisters, hopefully Elli and Hannah

145
00:06:56,279 --> 00:06:56,800
Speaker 2: a listening.

146
00:06:57,200 --> 00:06:58,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, well I'm going to assume they are.

147
00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:02,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm sure. Yeah. So this is the thing. I

148
00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:04,440
Speaker 2: feel like, how old were you when you had me,

149
00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:08,920
Speaker 2: you were thirty two, right, thirty three? Thirty three? Okay,

150
00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:12,400
Speaker 2: so you were like well and well into your thirties,

151
00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:15,760
Speaker 2: but you were like my age, like nine years older

152
00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:16,400
Speaker 2: than I am now.

153
00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:16,840
Speaker 3: Yep.

154
00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:18,960
Speaker 2: And that's like insane to me to think that I

155
00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:23,640
Speaker 2: would be ready to have a child in nine years, like,

156
00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:27,600
Speaker 2: let alone in like fifteen. What was like the biggest

157
00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:30,120
Speaker 2: lesson you learned having children? Did you actually always want

158
00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:31,840
Speaker 2: children even when you were younger.

159
00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:35,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, I always wanted kids even when I was younger.

160
00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:40,240
Speaker 4: You know, it's interesting because like thirty three is you know,

161
00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:41,640
Speaker 4: it's not young to be having kids.

162
00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:45,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, in the spirit of turtle frankness, you know, this

163
00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:48,680
Speaker 3: took us a while to get pregnant with you.

164
00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:50,800
Speaker 2: I don't need the Internet to know that.

165
00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:54,040
Speaker 4: Well, but it's you know, and it's just it is

166
00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:57,320
Speaker 4: one of those things that yeah, we you know, we

167
00:07:57,320 --> 00:08:00,400
Speaker 4: were keen to have kids. You know, life, you find

168
00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:04,000
Speaker 4: your partners at whatever age. Other things kind of happen,

169
00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:07,520
Speaker 4: and you know, you I think one of the one

170
00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:09,160
Speaker 4: of the things that I was thinking about and in

171
00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:12,200
Speaker 4: terms of this conversation, was how people think about when

172
00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:12,840
Speaker 4: to have kids.

173
00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:16,720
Speaker 3: And you know, for me, it was when I met.

174
00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:19,720
Speaker 4: Your dad, and you know, we went overseas and did

175
00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:23,200
Speaker 4: some things and then came home to Australia and we're

176
00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:26,200
Speaker 4: keen to start a family, and you know, we feel

177
00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:27,240
Speaker 4: blessed to have three kids.

178
00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:30,560
Speaker 3: But it's not always a straight line. I definitely felt.

179
00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:34,000
Speaker 4: Very ready to be having kids, but it comes with

180
00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:35,800
Speaker 4: a lot of you know a lot of ups and

181
00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:38,800
Speaker 4: downs too, and things that you don't know what happens

182
00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:42,800
Speaker 4: through pregnancies and whatever, and.

183
00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:44,439
Speaker 3: So yeah, we're you know, was I ready? I was?

184
00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:46,959
Speaker 4: But then in some ways, I guess you're never ready

185
00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:49,640
Speaker 4: because you never know what's going to happen. And that's

186
00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:52,439
Speaker 4: part of the challenge, is the uncertainty of it all.

187
00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:55,840
Speaker 2: Was it harder when we were younger or is it

188
00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:58,599
Speaker 2: harder now now that we're because we're a lot of

189
00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:02,160
Speaker 2: us were I flew the nest pretty young. I left

190
00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:05,560
Speaker 2: tar when I was like seventeen. But Ellie and Hannah

191
00:09:05,559 --> 00:09:07,680
Speaker 2: are like getting to the point where they're about to leave.

192
00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:11,160
Speaker 2: Has been that Has that been difficult? Being like, oh

193
00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:14,040
Speaker 2: am I no longer having that role that you've had

194
00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:15,240
Speaker 2: for twenty four years.

195
00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:17,280
Speaker 3: I think it's one of the other things you do

196
00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:18,679
Speaker 3: learn when you have kids.

197
00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:22,120
Speaker 4: And maybe I think about this because you know, you know,

198
00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:26,720
Speaker 4: I was a working mum for big chunks of you know,

199
00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:31,040
Speaker 4: your younger life, and your sisters as well, and particularly

200
00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:33,640
Speaker 4: you know, when you were in primary school, and I

201
00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:35,920
Speaker 4: think there's a sense that when kids are really young,

202
00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:38,320
Speaker 4: they really need their parents, and they do for certain things.

203
00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:41,199
Speaker 3: But you know, I found when you.

204
00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:44,200
Speaker 4: Were in high school and your sisters as they've gotten older,

205
00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:48,200
Speaker 4: that you continue to need your parents, but in different

206
00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:51,360
Speaker 4: ways and for different things, and that sense changes. But

207
00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:54,520
Speaker 4: I kind of thought that, you know, there was times

208
00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:57,680
Speaker 4: when you guys were in high school, for instance, where

209
00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:00,800
Speaker 4: you needed your parents around just as much as you

210
00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:03,880
Speaker 4: did when we were in primary school. And so I

211
00:10:03,880 --> 00:10:06,000
Speaker 4: think that's maybe one of the I don't know if

212
00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:08,400
Speaker 4: myths is the right word, but there's so much focus on,

213
00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:10,880
Speaker 4: you know, being there for kids when they're younger, and

214
00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:13,920
Speaker 4: actually I think the pressure is there all the way

215
00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:17,120
Speaker 4: through and just being clear about that and recognizing you

216
00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:19,760
Speaker 4: have to try to find a way to be there

217
00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:21,559
Speaker 4: for your kids no matter what else is going on.

218
00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:23,800
Speaker 4: It's just one of the you know, one of the

219
00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:27,600
Speaker 4: challenges but also one of the great joys of being

220
00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:30,480
Speaker 4: a parent when when you feel like you are doing

221
00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:35,400
Speaker 4: that and hopefully your kids, I think you're doing that well.

222
00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:38,839
Speaker 2: It's so interesting because I feel like for a lot

223
00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:42,240
Speaker 2: of my teenagers, I didn't really need you, well at

224
00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:44,720
Speaker 2: least I thought I didn't need you. And then as

225
00:10:44,760 --> 00:10:46,760
Speaker 2: soon as I went to university, and then actually like

226
00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:49,240
Speaker 2: probably the second year of university, like the first year,

227
00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:51,240
Speaker 2: I really was like I don't need my parents, Like

228
00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:54,840
Speaker 2: I am a big girl, I am an adult now

229
00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:58,760
Speaker 2: I live independently. And then it was like, oh, you

230
00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:01,520
Speaker 2: get older, and it's like reversal and you're like, oh

231
00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:04,080
Speaker 2: my gosh, I really need my mom and I'm like,

232
00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:06,520
Speaker 2: I really like it's kind of coming back to the nest,

233
00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:08,640
Speaker 2: Like it's such a big thing in your twenties that

234
00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:10,400
Speaker 2: you fly the nest and you go off and you

235
00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:12,680
Speaker 2: do your own thing. But then I think that the

236
00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:15,000
Speaker 2: further along on that journey, the more you're like, actually,

237
00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:17,120
Speaker 2: I want to come home, like and I want to

238
00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:19,400
Speaker 2: see my parents and I want to call my parents.

239
00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:22,800
Speaker 2: And I remember it was like my first like big

240
00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:25,360
Speaker 2: heartbreak when I was at Uni that I was like

241
00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:28,120
Speaker 2: suddenly so much more reliant on you guys. In a

242
00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:30,800
Speaker 2: way that I didn't feel like I had been since

243
00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:31,760
Speaker 2: I was a kid.

244
00:11:32,559 --> 00:11:36,040
Speaker 4: Because I mean, I think you know, I've seen it

245
00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:37,760
Speaker 4: in your sisters and well as well.

246
00:11:39,559 --> 00:11:41,840
Speaker 3: Of course, you go through phases of where you're.

247
00:11:41,679 --> 00:11:45,520
Speaker 4: Really independence is really important to you, and it's it's

248
00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:48,120
Speaker 4: the actual independence, and I think it's the perception of

249
00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:53,079
Speaker 4: independence as well. But I think you know, from my perspective,

250
00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:58,000
Speaker 4: just being around sometimes is important then, so, you know,

251
00:11:58,080 --> 00:11:59,960
Speaker 4: because I think it allows you to sort of go

252
00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:03,560
Speaker 4: often and live your life, but knowing that if you

253
00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:05,680
Speaker 4: need it, it's there, and even if you don't necessarily

254
00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:08,960
Speaker 4: acknowledge it, I think there's a sense that you know,

255
00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:11,720
Speaker 4: you your parents can provide a bit of a foundation

256
00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:13,640
Speaker 4: and you know if you do need to come back

257
00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:17,240
Speaker 4: or need support, we're there. But it's you know, the

258
00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:19,480
Speaker 4: flip side is it's it's fantastic as a parent to

259
00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:22,760
Speaker 4: see your kids going off and doing that. And then yeah,

260
00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:26,280
Speaker 4: hopefully at different stages the perception or whatever of that

261
00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:29,200
Speaker 4: independence becomes less important and you and that's the whole

262
00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:33,240
Speaker 4: thing about your relationship kind of ebbs and flows and evolves,

263
00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:34,959
Speaker 4: and it's yeah, it's a nice thing.

264
00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:38,920
Speaker 2: What's been the hardest part about being a mother.

265
00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:40,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a good question.

266
00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:44,480
Speaker 4: I mean, I think in all honesty, it's the sort

267
00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:46,720
Speaker 4: of vulnerability and the uncertainty of it.

268
00:12:48,120 --> 00:12:52,440
Speaker 3: Like you just, you know, with a partner, there's an

269
00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:53,199
Speaker 3: element of it.

270
00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:55,600
Speaker 4: But when you you know, when you have kids and

271
00:12:55,679 --> 00:12:57,839
Speaker 4: you just love them so much and care for them

272
00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:00,679
Speaker 4: so much, it's that you know what them go out

273
00:13:00,679 --> 00:13:03,480
Speaker 4: into the world, and the equal measure of wanting them

274
00:13:03,520 --> 00:13:08,200
Speaker 4: to be independent and excited and exploring the world and

275
00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:12,199
Speaker 4: doing everything that you did, but you know, also sort

276
00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:15,280
Speaker 4: of probably having a greater understanding of all the things

277
00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:18,120
Speaker 4: that can go wrong, and just that balance of.

278
00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:21,560
Speaker 3: Just you know, there's always just that little bit of fear.

279
00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:24,400
Speaker 4: You never want harm or sadness or anything to come

280
00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:26,080
Speaker 4: to your kids, but that's not the way they can

281
00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:28,439
Speaker 4: live their lives. So it's just that uncertainty, and it's

282
00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:32,160
Speaker 4: you know, it brings great excitement and emotion and joy,

283
00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:35,880
Speaker 4: but every now and then, you know you're white knuckling

284
00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:36,240
Speaker 4: in a bit.

285
00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:39,760
Speaker 2: Really. It's so interesting because I even feel that way

286
00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:43,600
Speaker 2: towards Hannah and Ellie, like my sisters, where Ellie is

287
00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:45,880
Speaker 2: going to UNI, and I think about what my first

288
00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:48,480
Speaker 2: two years of UNI are like, and I want her

289
00:13:48,520 --> 00:13:51,480
Speaker 2: to have those experiences, but I also know like how

290
00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:55,679
Speaker 2: chaotic and sometimes awful they were, and I'm like, maybe

291
00:13:55,679 --> 00:13:58,000
Speaker 2: I'll just protect you from them, Like maybe you could

292
00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:00,440
Speaker 2: just be a little girl, little a little maybe for

293
00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:03,960
Speaker 2: a little bit longer and like not have those that independence.

294
00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:06,360
Speaker 2: And I'm like, I feel that towards my sister. I

295
00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:09,000
Speaker 2: can't imagine what that would feel like as a mother,

296
00:14:09,679 --> 00:14:12,800
Speaker 2: being like I gave birth to this child who was

297
00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:15,400
Speaker 2: now like doing like off in the world, and I

298
00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:17,840
Speaker 2: like don't know where they are, don't know what they're

299
00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:20,320
Speaker 2: doing at all times. What was like an experience where

300
00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:21,960
Speaker 2: you said you'd be like white knuckling.

301
00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:25,280
Speaker 4: It, Oh, it's you know this thing, Well, I don't know.

302
00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:28,480
Speaker 4: You go overseas and you know, I'm.

303
00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:30,320
Speaker 2: Thinking about that time I was in ampsinem and I

304
00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:34,560
Speaker 2: called you and was like I'm dying possibly. And I

305
00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:37,760
Speaker 2: wasn't even like on anything. I wasn't I know the

306
00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:40,240
Speaker 2: connotations of like being an ampsinam. I was just like

307
00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:43,960
Speaker 2: really tired, and I was like, I'm dying. I've decided

308
00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:46,640
Speaker 2: like my anxiety and I called you guys like three

309
00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:47,800
Speaker 2: am well.

310
00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:50,080
Speaker 3: And it was it was the you know it was

311
00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:52,320
Speaker 3: that like, maybe white.

312
00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:54,600
Speaker 4: Knuckling is the wrong way to describe it, but there

313
00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:57,440
Speaker 4: is a certain sense that when your phone rings in

314
00:14:57,440 --> 00:15:00,880
Speaker 4: the middle of the night. You know, once you've kids,

315
00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:03,560
Speaker 4: that that has a certain you leap to. You can

316
00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:06,160
Speaker 4: leap to the wrong conclusion and so your heart so

317
00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:10,520
Speaker 4: it's racing. You calm yourself down, but then you know

318
00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:12,320
Speaker 4: there was an element of it would have been nice

319
00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:14,040
Speaker 4: if you'd phone the next day to remind us that

320
00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:15,160
Speaker 4: you're okay.

321
00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:19,160
Speaker 2: No, no, that's not how it works. I was too,

322
00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:21,320
Speaker 2: So I was eighteen and selfish. I wasn't gonna let

323
00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:22,480
Speaker 2: you guys know I was okay.

324
00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:27,400
Speaker 4: But but the other thing, too, is just the emotional

325
00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:30,000
Speaker 4: sort of stuff and the emotional hurt. And so that's why,

326
00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:32,040
Speaker 4: you know, white knuckling is not the right term. But

327
00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:34,920
Speaker 4: you do expose yourself to feeling it. You know, you've

328
00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:37,600
Speaker 4: experienced it yourself, but then to watch other people who

329
00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:39,600
Speaker 4: you care about go through some of that stuff, which

330
00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:43,240
Speaker 4: is just it's just life, but you know it's it's

331
00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:45,800
Speaker 4: not it's not easy to see other people go through

332
00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:49,240
Speaker 4: that and to be sad or to be you know,

333
00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:52,200
Speaker 4: to be hursh and in some ways really the emotional

334
00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:55,000
Speaker 4: stuff is harder than you know, going to get the

335
00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:59,040
Speaker 4: stitches or whatever else. And you know, we've had conversations

336
00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:01,920
Speaker 4: about this that you know, we try to do the

337
00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:04,440
Speaker 4: right thing. We tried to raise each of you as

338
00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:08,800
Speaker 4: independent people who could make their own decisions and who

339
00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:13,480
Speaker 4: were resilient to those challenges. And sometimes it meant, you know,

340
00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:16,720
Speaker 4: letting you find your way a bit. And I'm sure

341
00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:20,800
Speaker 4: that felt hard and it was hard to watch and

342
00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:24,880
Speaker 4: experience as well, but you've got to, you know, it's

343
00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:28,560
Speaker 4: always trying to walk that line of doing things that

344
00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:31,600
Speaker 4: you know, trying to be the parent that sets you

345
00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:35,640
Speaker 4: up for success in your future, which sometimes you know

346
00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:39,800
Speaker 4: comes across, as you know, not necessarily being the kindest

347
00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:43,840
Speaker 4: or most protective parent at different stages when you're younger.

348
00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:47,040
Speaker 2: I know exactly what you're referring to. And I remember

349
00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:50,080
Speaker 2: being in primary school and all of the people, all

350
00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:53,560
Speaker 2: of my friends had these like helicopter parents who had

351
00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:55,080
Speaker 2: a drop of the heart would.

352
00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:57,600
Speaker 1: Be there to fix.

353
00:16:57,360 --> 00:16:59,760
Speaker 2: Things for them, and you guys were not those parents.

354
00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:02,680
Speaker 2: You were like, oh, you're having problems with school, great,

355
00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:04,520
Speaker 2: go and talk to your teacher, deal with it, like

356
00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:07,560
Speaker 2: not that callous You won't like deal with it, like

357
00:17:08,080 --> 00:17:09,520
Speaker 2: get out of our face, we don't want to hear

358
00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:12,200
Speaker 2: from you. But it was like that thing, right, did

359
00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:13,680
Speaker 2: have a point where I was like, gosh, I wish

360
00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:15,520
Speaker 2: that my mom was just like a bit more angry

361
00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:18,520
Speaker 2: on my behalf. And I'm sure you were, but you

362
00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:21,960
Speaker 2: were like and now I'm super grateful for the fact

363
00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:25,200
Speaker 2: that you made me be a problem solver and independent

364
00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:28,280
Speaker 2: because it's I think a big part of my personality.

365
00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:31,280
Speaker 2: But that was definitely times where I was like, gosh,

366
00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:33,040
Speaker 2: I do just want my mom to scream at someone

367
00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:33,359
Speaker 2: for me.

368
00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:36,399
Speaker 4: Well, there were times when can I just say that

369
00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:39,119
Speaker 4: little bit of independence which usually your dad let you

370
00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:42,800
Speaker 4: exercise more than me. There were moments when I similarly

371
00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:45,119
Speaker 4: went to pick you up from childcare and thought what

372
00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:49,160
Speaker 4: is she wearing or what is she doing? And then

373
00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:51,760
Speaker 4: packing your own lunch that had its highs and lows as.

374
00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:54,960
Speaker 2: Well, Oh yeah, what was what? Did I pack? Junk food?

375
00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:57,480
Speaker 3: Well? Just yeah, fair few crackers.

376
00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:02,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, dah, I was growing girl, I was hungry. I

377
00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:06,439
Speaker 2: was sharing them. I don't know what. So this is

378
00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:10,000
Speaker 2: like a hot, hot question, but you have three daughters,

379
00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:11,440
Speaker 2: did you ever want a son?

380
00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:13,800
Speaker 4: Oh?

381
00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:15,639
Speaker 3: Yeah, so interesting, isn't it.

382
00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:21,080
Speaker 4: Look I think you're always I think you always sort

383
00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:23,679
Speaker 4: of think, oh, you know, one of each, you know,

384
00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:26,600
Speaker 4: at least like having one of each in the family,

385
00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:28,080
Speaker 4: not necessarily just two kids.

386
00:18:28,119 --> 00:18:30,320
Speaker 3: But yeah, I think you do. But can I be

387
00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:31,200
Speaker 3: really honest.

388
00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:34,720
Speaker 4: And say, well, for starters, I reckon With every one

389
00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:37,800
Speaker 4: of my pregnancies, at least at one stage someone told

390
00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:40,680
Speaker 4: me that I was having a boy, and no one

391
00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:43,040
Speaker 4: ever told me I was having girls. But like with you,

392
00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:45,639
Speaker 4: we were walking down the street in Fitzroy one morning

393
00:18:46,119 --> 00:18:49,399
Speaker 4: and this Italian NNA came from across the street, like walked,

394
00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:51,760
Speaker 4: you know, one hundred meters from across the street, came

395
00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:52,720
Speaker 4: up to me and said.

396
00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:55,480
Speaker 3: It's a boy. So that was pretty funny.

397
00:18:56,160 --> 00:18:59,240
Speaker 4: And when I was pregnant with Hannah, I definitely thought

398
00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:03,200
Speaker 4: she was a boy, just because she behaves so differently

399
00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:07,600
Speaker 4: in the womb to the rest of you, because she

400
00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:12,840
Speaker 4: was a little pocket rocket in there. But so after you,

401
00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:16,480
Speaker 4: and like after you and Ellie, I have to say

402
00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:18,480
Speaker 4: my greatest fear was that I was going to have

403
00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:21,360
Speaker 4: a boy, because I was like, okay, I've got two

404
00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:25,560
Speaker 4: girls now I think I understand them, and a boy

405
00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:29,840
Speaker 4: is just gonna like throw me off now, but I.

406
00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:32,880
Speaker 3: Think it's this is going to sound like such a cliche, but.

407
00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:36,600
Speaker 4: And in all honesty, because after you were born, like

408
00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:39,320
Speaker 4: you know, the whole the emergency sees a thing was

409
00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:42,479
Speaker 4: a moment and at the time it was, you know,

410
00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:45,680
Speaker 4: our doctor was fantastic. But when I look back, I thought, wow,

411
00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:48,639
Speaker 4: that was a moment, and from then on you do

412
00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:51,680
Speaker 4: just sort of think, well, I'm just I just feel

413
00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:54,159
Speaker 4: blessed to have healthy kids, you know.

414
00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:56,439
Speaker 3: So that's the truth of it.

415
00:19:57,119 --> 00:19:59,600
Speaker 2: So I you didn't know what gender, did you? Was

416
00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:00,960
Speaker 2: it a all three?

417
00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:01,240
Speaker 3: Yeah?

418
00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:06,160
Speaker 2: No, way, I didn't know that. Yeah, oh that's so cute.

419
00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:09,080
Speaker 4: But also the funny thing is that each time around

420
00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:11,760
Speaker 4: we had three names for boys, but only one name

421
00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:12,560
Speaker 4: for a girl.

422
00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:16,120
Speaker 2: So they knew someone in the someone in the universe knew.

423
00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:19,760
Speaker 2: So that's actually really interesting. I had no idea. But

424
00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:21,359
Speaker 2: I do also think you didn't have sons, but you

425
00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:25,280
Speaker 2: raised us like sons. I've said this since I was

426
00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:28,080
Speaker 2: like younger. I'm like, you guys raised us like boys

427
00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:31,440
Speaker 2: in a very like traditional stereotypical way that people raise

428
00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:35,520
Speaker 2: children like boys. Just letting us get into so much mischief.

429
00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:38,920
Speaker 2: We were always dirty. I'm pretty sure I only wore

430
00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:41,600
Speaker 2: boys clothes for a long time. Buzz light your T shirt.

431
00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:44,600
Speaker 3: Buzz light your outfits, honey, don't just say T shirts.

432
00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:46,080
Speaker 3: You were the full kitten kaboodle.

433
00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:47,960
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well I was a super fan.

434
00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:48,320
Speaker 3: I was.

435
00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:51,480
Speaker 2: I was a stan I loved that man.

436
00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:52,120
Speaker 3: Yea.

437
00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:54,920
Speaker 2: But yeah, I just feel like there were so many

438
00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:57,159
Speaker 2: ways that you guys kind of raised us without like

439
00:20:57,200 --> 00:20:59,800
Speaker 2: an idea of gender. Like I maybe I'm just being

440
00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:02,879
Speaker 2: remembering things that I want to remember them, but I

441
00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:06,760
Speaker 2: don't remember having dolls. I think also was the fact

442
00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:10,800
Speaker 2: that maybe, like the general you're lying now, come on, really,

443
00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:11,760
Speaker 2: what doll did I have?

444
00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:12,160
Speaker 4: Oh?

445
00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:15,399
Speaker 3: My goodness, come on? What did you used to do

446
00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:16,320
Speaker 3: to your barbies?

447
00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:19,680
Speaker 2: Oh? I made weird Barbie. I used to cuddle the

448
00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:21,919
Speaker 2: hair off. Yeah, and their fingers as well. I went

449
00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:23,200
Speaker 2: the astra mark definitely.

450
00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:25,520
Speaker 4: I don't remember the fingers, but you definitely were queen

451
00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:26,800
Speaker 4: of the Barbie haircut.

452
00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:28,440
Speaker 3: These were punk rocker barbies.

453
00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:30,080
Speaker 2: Yeah.

454
00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:32,000
Speaker 4: I think one of the things too, that I've come

455
00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:35,520
Speaker 4: to really appreciate, and you know, you make the decisions

456
00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:38,199
Speaker 4: you do in terms of work and life and all

457
00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:42,080
Speaker 4: the rest of it. But I've really come to the

458
00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:47,520
Speaker 4: view that the fact that your dad's you know, spent

459
00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:49,640
Speaker 4: a lot of time at home with each of you,

460
00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:53,920
Speaker 4: and it was very clear for you, I think from

461
00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:56,320
Speaker 4: my perspective, and I think it's because there were fewer

462
00:21:56,359 --> 00:22:01,000
Speaker 4: men in the playground at the time, but having a

463
00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:04,640
Speaker 4: father at homes, he'd let you take more risks, There's

464
00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:07,680
Speaker 4: no doubt about it. And he was much more comfortable

465
00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:09,840
Speaker 4: with that. And I can there were so many times

466
00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:13,080
Speaker 4: when I talk about white knuckling, actually watching you race

467
00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:17,639
Speaker 4: to the corner of the footpath on your bike every time,

468
00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:19,880
Speaker 4: as you just scream down the street on your bike,

469
00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:21,800
Speaker 4: I just used to think, oh my gosh, I hope

470
00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:22,720
Speaker 4: she stops in time.

471
00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:24,879
Speaker 3: And it's the same for all of yours, you know,

472
00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:25,760
Speaker 3: each of your sisters.

473
00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:29,639
Speaker 4: But you know, Bart was just he let you guys,

474
00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:32,119
Speaker 4: you know, jump and run and climb, and you know

475
00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:35,000
Speaker 4: he was famous in the I mean I remember coming

476
00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:37,760
Speaker 4: around the corner of the playground at the school and

477
00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:39,960
Speaker 4: seeing all of the mums kind of standing in a

478
00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:42,239
Speaker 4: semi circle with their mouths open, and I knew what

479
00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:45,080
Speaker 4: was going on, and it was Bart standing there throwing

480
00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:46,919
Speaker 4: kids in the air, and they had this kind of

481
00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:50,520
Speaker 4: half happy, half terrified look on their face, and it

482
00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:54,680
Speaker 4: just so explains the difference of you know, I think

483
00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:55,879
Speaker 4: how you guys were raised.

484
00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:58,880
Speaker 2: Well, it's true because dad was a stay at home

485
00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:01,800
Speaker 2: dad for our childhood. I knew that was a period

486
00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:04,040
Speaker 2: where you were you stayed at home but you were

487
00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:06,439
Speaker 2: still working. But he was like a full stay at

488
00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:10,040
Speaker 2: home dad. And I know I'm talking about you, but

489
00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:12,960
Speaker 2: that there was definitely moments that I remember being a

490
00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:16,320
Speaker 2: kid where he faced a lot of discrimination for that,

491
00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:18,840
Speaker 2: whilst you probably also face a lot of discrimination for

492
00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:21,320
Speaker 2: being a working mum. Like neither of you had it

493
00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:23,840
Speaker 2: easy to kind of subvert the gender norms. The one

494
00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:26,399
Speaker 2: I always think of is the time that that woman

495
00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:30,679
Speaker 2: wouldn't let her daughter come over because she thought he

496
00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:33,120
Speaker 2: was a sex offender or something like that.

497
00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:36,720
Speaker 3: It was someone who yeah, did I won't repeat it

498
00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:40,199
Speaker 3: because it was illegal. It was illegal, Yeah, and it was,

499
00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:44,159
Speaker 3: but yeah, he faced that. It was Yeah, he faced that.

500
00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:46,679
Speaker 4: But equally, I'm not sure if you remember this, It

501
00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:49,919
Speaker 4: was this was when I went to when I just

502
00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:52,280
Speaker 4: started this period, so there's about five years when I

503
00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:56,119
Speaker 4: was predominantly the stay at home parent. You were in

504
00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:59,320
Speaker 4: high school by then, but your sisters were in primary school.

505
00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:03,720
Speaker 4: And I remember going to a birthday party that one

506
00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:05,520
Speaker 4: of Ellie's friends was having, and we were at that

507
00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:09,920
Speaker 4: indoor playground and I arrived to the party and the

508
00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:12,400
Speaker 4: woman who was hosting it, you know, sort of said

509
00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:15,320
Speaker 4: to me, oh, you know, who's who's your child?

510
00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:20,320
Speaker 3: And I said Ellie And she said well, she goes, oh,

511
00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:23,080
Speaker 3: are you are you Bat's wife?

512
00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:28,040
Speaker 4: And I said yes and she said oh, And all

513
00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:30,399
Speaker 4: along I just thought he was this lovely single dad.

514
00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:33,360
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, And I just thought embarrassing for her.

515
00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:36,800
Speaker 4: Oh, it's just it was just really brutal. And I thought,

516
00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:39,760
Speaker 4: what and what do I think about all your mums

517
00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:41,960
Speaker 4: who come and pick your kids up? And so it

518
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:43,359
Speaker 4: just it'spun both ways.

519
00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:44,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, it really did.

520
00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:47,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I'm glad that it happened that way because

521
00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:50,359
Speaker 2: I feel like we've got a really unique childhood and

522
00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:52,919
Speaker 2: now it's so much more common. But back then, like

523
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:56,680
Speaker 2: it was so weird, like early early two thousands to

524
00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:59,159
Speaker 2: see like a stay at home dad. It was.

525
00:24:59,520 --> 00:24:59,800
Speaker 3: It was.

526
00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:02,080
Speaker 4: It was a tough gig, it was, and both ways,

527
00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:05,639
Speaker 4: like it was very hard for him, very lonely, to

528
00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:09,680
Speaker 4: be honest, but and look, I don't you know, I'm

529
00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:11,639
Speaker 4: not trying to say it was better or words for

530
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:13,119
Speaker 4: either of us, but it was.

531
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:14,480
Speaker 3: It was equally frustrating.

532
00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:16,639
Speaker 4: If you'd rock up in the school yard, you know,

533
00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:18,720
Speaker 4: I'd drop you off at school, and I'd be in

534
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:22,440
Speaker 4: a suit and on my way to work, and people

535
00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:24,240
Speaker 4: would stop and ask me if I was coming to

536
00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:27,479
Speaker 4: the book reading at eleven thirty. And you know, in

537
00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:29,960
Speaker 4: contrast that the dads who were dropping off in their suits,

538
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:32,000
Speaker 4: no one expect everyone knew where they were going. They

539
00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:34,080
Speaker 4: were all going to work, and they didn't get They

540
00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:36,520
Speaker 4: got praise for making time to drop their kids off,

541
00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:39,520
Speaker 4: and they weren't asked, you know, are you going.

542
00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:40,080
Speaker 3: To stay longer?

543
00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:42,000
Speaker 4: And it sounds like a small thing, but there was

544
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:43,520
Speaker 4: always a bit of It.

545
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:46,240
Speaker 3: Was hard not to feel a little bit of guilt.

546
00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:49,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, or like feel like they're being like, oh, you're

547
00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:51,800
Speaker 2: you're like a failure as a mother because you're not

548
00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:53,159
Speaker 2: sticking around and win.

549
00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:55,840
Speaker 4: Because I haven't. I haven't made the time for that.

550
00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:58,440
Speaker 4: It was it just felt like that was the message.

551
00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:02,119
Speaker 2: Here's the thing. I don't remember single book reading, so

552
00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:04,840
Speaker 2: I don't think it mattered that you weren't there. You

553
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:06,200
Speaker 2: were there for the important things.

554
00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:08,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, well I think I hope that that's the case.

555
00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:13,200
Speaker 4: But definitely, regardless, you have to make the you make

556
00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:16,359
Speaker 4: the decisions that have to work for you know, your family,

557
00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:18,200
Speaker 4: and it's a combination of a whole bunch of things,

558
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:20,880
Speaker 4: and it's you know, you've got to have income and

559
00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:23,280
Speaker 4: you know, ideally you have a house to live in

560
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:26,439
Speaker 4: and financial security and you know you've got to you

561
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:28,680
Speaker 4: just make those choices and they're not set and forget

562
00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:31,840
Speaker 4: you kind of ebb and flow with that. But I

563
00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:34,159
Speaker 4: think the hard the hard part, and the thing you

564
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:36,240
Speaker 4: probably get a bit more perspective on when you get

565
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:38,680
Speaker 4: a bit older, is that those opinions don't really matter,

566
00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:42,040
Speaker 4: And yeah, you just got to You've got to glide

567
00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:43,840
Speaker 4: past them a little bit and know that you're making

568
00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:47,200
Speaker 4: the best decisions that you can, you know, and there's

569
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:49,440
Speaker 4: no you're never going to do it perfectly.

570
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:52,359
Speaker 2: Well, well, that kind of leads to my next question.

571
00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:55,479
Speaker 2: Do you think you made any mistakes? Would you do

572
00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:56,400
Speaker 2: anything differently?

573
00:26:58,040 --> 00:26:59,960
Speaker 3: Did we make mistakes? One hundred and one mistakes?

574
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:02,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, I name a couple. I want something to blame

575
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:04,400
Speaker 2: you about I want something to hold over your head.

576
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:08,280
Speaker 3: Well, there's there's there's I don't know, there's lots of

577
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:08,800
Speaker 3: little things.

578
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:11,920
Speaker 4: You go back and you you know, partly you say

579
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:13,800
Speaker 4: things or you phrase something in a particular way, and

580
00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:15,520
Speaker 4: you know, you don't think.

581
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:17,320
Speaker 3: About it, but it lands, it gets hurt in a

582
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:18,159
Speaker 3: particular way.

583
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:22,520
Speaker 4: And and you know when your kids recount things back

584
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:25,080
Speaker 4: to you, you didn't mean it that way, or you

585
00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:27,840
Speaker 4: didn't the context, you saw the context differently. There's there's

586
00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:31,879
Speaker 4: one hundred and one little things like that, and you know,

587
00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:34,280
Speaker 4: all sorts of stuff. And I don't look back and

588
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:39,480
Speaker 4: think that there's one major thing that we did.

589
00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:41,119
Speaker 3: You know, we.

590
00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:46,800
Speaker 4: But you know that you didn't get everything right. And

591
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:48,800
Speaker 4: whether it was what you did or the tone that

592
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:51,320
Speaker 4: you did it with in the time, you just know that.

593
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:54,840
Speaker 4: But would you do anything differently? I think that's a

594
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:56,280
Speaker 4: hard I mean, in some ways, I think it's a

595
00:27:56,320 --> 00:28:00,479
Speaker 4: hard question or even a harsh question, because you know,

596
00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:03,399
Speaker 4: you do the best that you can at the time,

597
00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:07,440
Speaker 4: and you know, I think one thing that's very hard

598
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:09,760
Speaker 4: on parents, if I'm honest, is that there's so much

599
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:14,919
Speaker 4: else going on. There's so much other context that your

600
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:19,680
Speaker 4: kids don't know about, nor should they, but it does

601
00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:23,400
Speaker 4: mean that sometimes, you know, you come home from work,

602
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 4: there's been a lot of stuff going down. There's a

603
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:28,119
Speaker 4: lot of stress or anxiety related to other things that

604
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:30,439
Speaker 4: you don't necessarily want to share with your kids, but

605
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:33,080
Speaker 4: it does inform some of the decisions you make or

606
00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:37,119
Speaker 4: how you communicate them. And at the time, you know,

607
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:38,360
Speaker 4: I don't think your kids appreciate it.

608
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:39,440
Speaker 3: When you grow up, I think you do.

609
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:45,000
Speaker 4: But yeah, that's all in the mix. On a lighter note,

610
00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 4: I'll give you an example. Yeah, Ellie teases me all

611
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:52,440
Speaker 4: the time because I'm not sure if you remember this,

612
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 4: but you know, I used to sing songs to you

613
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:59,000
Speaker 4: guys when I was putting you to bed, and Ellie

614
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:01,280
Speaker 4: in particular, always just wanted to sing along.

615
00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:04,040
Speaker 2: She's so cute.

616
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:06,120
Speaker 4: She's still like that, but I just wanted to I

617
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:08,920
Speaker 4: just wanted to go to sleep. And so she teases

618
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:10,840
Speaker 4: me now about the fact that I would be quite

619
00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:13,120
Speaker 4: firm on the like, no, you're not to.

620
00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:15,720
Speaker 3: Sing the songs with me, And she says, you're singing all.

621
00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:17,240
Speaker 4: These cute songs and all I wanted to do was

622
00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:19,240
Speaker 4: sing along, But you would say no, you've got to

623
00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:22,000
Speaker 4: go to bed now, So maybe.

624
00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:23,960
Speaker 3: I'm so cute. Maybe on reflection, I would have done

625
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:24,640
Speaker 3: that differently.

626
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:29,320
Speaker 2: That's so cute because it's like, I forget that although

627
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:32,520
Speaker 2: we each grew up together, I'd never heard that, like

628
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:36,080
Speaker 2: we had such different memories of like our interactions with you.

629
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:37,800
Speaker 3: That's so cute.

630
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:39,120
Speaker 2: Oh my god, she's adorable.

631
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:42,400
Speaker 3: But I'm going to say she also well, I mean,

632
00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:43,560
Speaker 3: so here's the other thing.

633
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:46,479
Speaker 4: So I'm trying to get her to sleep, because Hannah,

634
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:50,000
Speaker 4: of course didn't sleep at all. And so when she's

635
00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:53,360
Speaker 4: recounting these stories, like we're in year one of a

636
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:57,000
Speaker 4: five year stage of you know, youngest daughter not sleeping

637
00:29:57,120 --> 00:29:57,800
Speaker 4: so many nights.

638
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,960
Speaker 2: I'm going to ask you a few more questions around motherhood.

639
00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:05,360
Speaker 2: And I want to ask whether you think that you

640
00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:09,560
Speaker 2: were a feminist mother. Not just a feminist, but were

641
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 2: you a feminist mother.

642
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:16,600
Speaker 4: So this is a really interesting question for me because

643
00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:19,320
Speaker 4: for a couple of reasons. One because I actually think

644
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:22,080
Speaker 4: I've become more of a feminist as I've gotten older,

645
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:24,719
Speaker 4: and if I think about it in the context of

646
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:29,959
Speaker 4: not just being someone who believes in equal rights and

647
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:33,160
Speaker 4: lives that way and hopefully raises their girls that way,

648
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:34,200
Speaker 4: and I'll come back to it, but.

649
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:37,760
Speaker 3: I've probably i'd probably be a bit.

650
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:42,520
Speaker 4: Critical of me in terms of being a really strong

651
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:47,440
Speaker 4: advocate for other women. So I think in the way

652
00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:49,360
Speaker 4: I lived, in the things I did. But if I

653
00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:53,920
Speaker 4: think about, you know, feminist feminist, being an advocate and

654
00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:57,640
Speaker 4: a really strong advocate for all women, I'm not sure

655
00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 4: i'd give myself a huge score on that, to be honest.

656
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:01,600
Speaker 4: So I'd look back and think I could have done

657
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:05,920
Speaker 4: more or have been more vocal and in different circumstances.

658
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:10,480
Speaker 4: But in terms of how I raised being a feminist mother, yeah,

659
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:14,680
Speaker 4: I think so. And yeah, and I think, you know,

660
00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:18,200
Speaker 4: in terms of being an advocate for each of you,

661
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:24,040
Speaker 4: both as individuals but also as girls and young women, Yeah,

662
00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:24,280
Speaker 4: I do.

663
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:25,160
Speaker 3: I do think so.

664
00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:28,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would say so as well. I do think

665
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:31,000
Speaker 2: that like this, but the brand of feminism that we

666
00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:33,959
Speaker 2: had when we were younger was very white feminism. But

667
00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:38,480
Speaker 2: I think also that was like just what was there

668
00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 2: at the time. Like I always think about like Hillary

669
00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:46,760
Speaker 2: Clinton as that as like an example, but I also

670
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:51,560
Speaker 2: think that, like it's just like the process of unlearning

671
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:55,080
Speaker 2: your white feminism in a way, especially like where we lived,

672
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:58,880
Speaker 2: you know, we lived in like in Australia, in inner

673
00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:05,120
Speaker 2: city Australia, where like the discussions about like intersectionality weren't

674
00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:08,720
Speaker 2: being had back in like two thousand, like the early

675
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:12,680
Speaker 2: twenty tens. But now I feel like you're such a

676
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:15,480
Speaker 2: good example. Also, I feel like you're not giving yourself

677
00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:19,240
Speaker 2: enough credit there, Like you being an advocate. I think

678
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:22,000
Speaker 2: you did a lot more than most other people. Think

679
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:24,680
Speaker 2: about all your friends, Like you have so many strong

680
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:28,360
Speaker 2: female friends who you advocate for in so many ways.

681
00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:29,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, look, I appreciate that I do.

682
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:31,760
Speaker 4: There's just some things I've learned on the way through

683
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:35,680
Speaker 4: and some things in leadership roles where if I was

684
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:38,000
Speaker 4: being honest, you know, I think I could have done

685
00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:39,720
Speaker 4: more and maybe I came late to some of the

686
00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:43,280
Speaker 4: things that I should have been, you know, doing more

687
00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:48,720
Speaker 4: of and being much more supportive and more demonstrably supportive

688
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:53,080
Speaker 4: I think, and just recognizing the importance of that over

689
00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:59,880
Speaker 4: demonstration of being a champion or supporter of people, not

690
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:02,360
Speaker 4: having it be sort of implied or assumed.

691
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:06,880
Speaker 2: M M. How do you think that our relationship has

692
00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:11,120
Speaker 2: changed as I've become an adult? Do you think we've

693
00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 2: gotten closer?

694
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:12,760
Speaker 3: Yeah?

695
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:14,680
Speaker 4: No, I definitely think so. But I think it's one

696
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:20,400
Speaker 4: of those things that, yeah, I don't know, like it's

697
00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:24,280
Speaker 4: I think you're it's just a different type of closeness, right,

698
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:28,720
Speaker 4: Like there's maybe a weird word, but there's an intimacy

699
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:30,920
Speaker 4: when you're with your kids when you're younger, and a

700
00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:34,760
Speaker 4: closeness and a and a dependency that that's you know,

701
00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:38,640
Speaker 4: that's really close, right, and and a lot of fun

702
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:42,080
Speaker 4: in that and that you know, that fun piece is

703
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:45,520
Speaker 4: a closeness that's pretty unique to that younger state when

704
00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:49,320
Speaker 4: your kids are younger, and it's it's just lovely. But

705
00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:52,400
Speaker 4: you know, as your kids grow up and certainly with you,

706
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:55,000
Speaker 4: you know, being able to have grown up conversations and

707
00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:58,120
Speaker 4: you know what I think it is is being able to.

708
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:05,280
Speaker 3: Experience and appreciate that respect. And you know, there's not a.

709
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:07,360
Speaker 4: Lot of people that you go through life with where

710
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:09,400
Speaker 4: you just really look at them and think, I really.

711
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:13,279
Speaker 3: Respect who you are as a person, and well.

712
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:16,400
Speaker 4: And I've got you know, I feel lucky to have

713
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:19,000
Speaker 4: a lot of really good friends who I do really respect,

714
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:23,200
Speaker 4: but you know, there's not that many people. And anyway,

715
00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:25,360
Speaker 4: it's fun to sort of have been a part of

716
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:27,719
Speaker 4: that and to have seen you grow up and then

717
00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:30,560
Speaker 4: to have so much respect and appreciation and admiration for

718
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:32,839
Speaker 4: what you've done. And I guess, to be honest, if

719
00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:34,799
Speaker 4: I'm being a little bit egotistical, you sort of feel

720
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:35,880
Speaker 4: like you're a little bit.

721
00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:38,360
Speaker 3: Of part of that and it's very special.

722
00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:40,800
Speaker 2: I do like to give you guys a lot of credit.

723
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:42,080
Speaker 2: I will say, Oh.

724
00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:43,880
Speaker 3: I don't like I don't want too much. It's just

725
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:46,040
Speaker 3: it's just that little bit where you sort of like

726
00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:49,120
Speaker 3: every now and then, ah, yeah, she's mine.

727
00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:54,600
Speaker 2: I think Dad does it more than you do. No

728
00:34:54,640 --> 00:35:00,799
Speaker 2: comment diplomatic. Do you find it weird when you know

729
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:03,000
Speaker 2: when I was like in my as I got into

730
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:04,759
Speaker 2: my early twenties, did you find it weird when I

731
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:08,880
Speaker 2: would talk about my relationships or like sex or anything

732
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:12,279
Speaker 2: like that. Was that weird? Because I feel like there

733
00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:15,799
Speaker 2: was a point where it kind of yeah, I don't know,

734
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:17,799
Speaker 2: I was like, am I treating my mom more like

735
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:19,760
Speaker 2: my friend or like my mom?

736
00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:22,160
Speaker 3: Yeah? I didn't find it weird.

737
00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:27,680
Speaker 4: I mean occasionally there was an early podcast that I'm

738
00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:29,399
Speaker 4: not sure if you remember this, but you said something

739
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:31,640
Speaker 4: along the lines of, oh, my parents might be listening,

740
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:34,880
Speaker 4: and I jokingly was saying, yeah, I rang you up

741
00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:37,479
Speaker 4: and said yes, I'm listening, which you know, of course

742
00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:40,520
Speaker 4: was not contemporary, but nonetheless, so every now and then

743
00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:45,120
Speaker 4: there's maybe a bit, you know, too much information. I

744
00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:49,719
Speaker 4: think the hardest part is that I was probably I'm

745
00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:52,120
Speaker 4: very close to my mum, your grandma, you know that.

746
00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:55,319
Speaker 3: And we probably share more information now.

747
00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:57,480
Speaker 4: But when I was younger, so it was me and

748
00:35:57,520 --> 00:35:59,200
Speaker 4: my brother, but I had a step brother and a

749
00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:02,840
Speaker 4: stepsister and that sort of mixed marriage, and you know,

750
00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:07,480
Speaker 4: my mum and my stepfather were sort of off, kind

751
00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:10,400
Speaker 4: of building their own life together, and the easiest thing

752
00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:13,279
Speaker 4: for me to do was just you know, play my

753
00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:14,600
Speaker 4: cards close to my chest.

754
00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:16,880
Speaker 3: So I didn't share a lot of information.

755
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:20,880
Speaker 4: It wasn't really letting anyone know what I was up

756
00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:22,920
Speaker 4: to live in my own life. And like you, I

757
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:26,840
Speaker 4: was at UNI when I was seventeen and so and

758
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:29,360
Speaker 4: then you know, my parents moved into State, so I was,

759
00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:33,240
Speaker 4: like you, really independent, but in a kind of flip scenario,

760
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:36,160
Speaker 4: if you like. And so I probably wasn't sharing as

761
00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:38,759
Speaker 4: much as information, and you know, I think it was

762
00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:41,040
Speaker 4: just getting used to what you were prepared to sort

763
00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:43,000
Speaker 4: of share as well. It wasn't that it was right

764
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:44,960
Speaker 4: or wrong or I felt uncomfortable. It was just different

765
00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:47,839
Speaker 4: to perhaps the way I had been at that age,

766
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:51,239
Speaker 4: and so just a bit of getting used to that.

767
00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:53,719
Speaker 2: That's so interesting are the things you don't want to hear.

768
00:36:56,840 --> 00:37:03,840
Speaker 4: Maybe there's maybe a bit of day information that before

769
00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:06,799
Speaker 4: the not to be named boyfriend arrived on the scene,

770
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:11,239
Speaker 4: that I went a little bit whilst not wanting to

771
00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:13,600
Speaker 4: look uninterested, was a bit la la la in my brain.

772
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:17,560
Speaker 2: I feel like I'm very good where i'd like, I

773
00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:20,200
Speaker 2: don't talk talk about them buying name or introduce you

774
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:23,960
Speaker 2: until it's like serious, like until we've been dating for

775
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:27,480
Speaker 2: at least six months. So I feel like my current

776
00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:31,040
Speaker 2: boyfriend slash just not in my current my boyfriend will

777
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:34,799
Speaker 2: be for a long time. That just kind of like

778
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:37,359
Speaker 2: popped onto the scene and then you, guys, I think

779
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:38,840
Speaker 2: I mentioned him and then you met him like a

780
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:39,399
Speaker 2: month later.

781
00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:43,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's fine, it was it's more, I mean, if

782
00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:46,520
Speaker 4: I'm being really honest, it's not that it's more the

783
00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:48,520
Speaker 4: the more casual relationships.

784
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:49,960
Speaker 2: Oh you didn't approve.

785
00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:54,200
Speaker 3: It's not that I didn't approve. I just didn't need

786
00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:55,160
Speaker 3: to know about them.

787
00:37:56,239 --> 00:37:58,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm just gonna say this for the listeners. The

788
00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:01,560
Speaker 2: information that I was giving my mom was like, oh,

789
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:05,080
Speaker 2: a man was at my house last night, and you'd

790
00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:07,200
Speaker 2: be like, ah, no, no, he wasn't.

791
00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:08,840
Speaker 3: God, that's true. That's not true.

792
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:13,600
Speaker 4: The funny one was when I picked you up on

793
00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:16,560
Speaker 4: a Saturday morning because we were flying back to Melbourne

794
00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:22,640
Speaker 4: for Grandma's birthday and you were furiatively texting someone in

795
00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:26,759
Speaker 4: the backseat of the uber, which was the person who

796
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:27,560
Speaker 4: was still.

797
00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:33,440
Speaker 3: At your place. Did you know that, Yeah, because you.

798
00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:35,880
Speaker 4: Ended up having to tell me because I couldn't figure

799
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:38,760
Speaker 4: out what all the texting was going on about.

800
00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:42,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was Oh my god, I completely forgot about that.

801
00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:47,200
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that's so true. That did happen. And the

802
00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:49,360
Speaker 2: thing was, you know what it was was this was

803
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:54,640
Speaker 2: it was actually not good because my house where I'm

804
00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:57,759
Speaker 2: moving out literally today, but my current house, once you're

805
00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:00,279
Speaker 2: in the house and the door is locked, you can't

806
00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:03,640
Speaker 2: get out without a key, and it's metal bars all

807
00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:07,000
Speaker 2: over the windows, all over the doors and the hall

808
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:08,920
Speaker 2: of the doors were locked and there were no keys

809
00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:12,320
Speaker 2: in the house and my roommates weren't coming back until

810
00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:15,640
Speaker 2: that evening, so I accidentally locked that man in my

811
00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:19,799
Speaker 2: house for eight hours before he could get out, and

812
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:22,520
Speaker 2: I was and I was like, we were running late

813
00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:27,960
Speaker 2: for our flight. I was like, and well, obviously he's

814
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:30,359
Speaker 2: not around anymore. So I'm not gonna say I'm gonna

815
00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:33,680
Speaker 2: be like, sorry, but can you imagine if he was listening, Sorry,

816
00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:35,919
Speaker 2: I locked you in my house for eight hours. That's

817
00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:47,520
Speaker 2: so funny. That's so funny. Business. I want to talk

818
00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:51,239
Speaker 2: about work because I was very lucky that I had

819
00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:56,040
Speaker 2: a mother like you, who was very very independently successful.

820
00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:59,480
Speaker 2: No NEPO babies here. You worked very very hard, but

821
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:03,799
Speaker 2: you also to very unconventional way to success like you got.

822
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:06,279
Speaker 2: You know, it was crazy to hear when I first

823
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:08,880
Speaker 2: went to Union that you actually got asked to leave

824
00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:14,240
Speaker 2: your university. You got kicked out from the economics department.

825
00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:16,600
Speaker 2: And now you are an economist and you are a

826
00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:21,480
Speaker 2: very good economist and you're also a CEO. What do

827
00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:23,640
Speaker 2: you think with some of the hardest parts about breaking

828
00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:25,640
Speaker 2: into that male dominated industry.

829
00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:29,520
Speaker 3: Well, first of all, let's not just slide over.

830
00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:33,640
Speaker 4: Getting kicked out of UNI, because I do actually think

831
00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:36,600
Speaker 4: it's an important message. I think there's so much pressure

832
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:40,760
Speaker 4: on people at high school and in their twenties around,

833
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:47,840
Speaker 4: you know, going to union, just doing everything, getting amazing grades,

834
00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:51,399
Speaker 4: you know, paying for a life that's more and more

835
00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:54,520
Speaker 4: expensive by the day, you know, and doing all the

836
00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:56,840
Speaker 4: extracurricular stuff so that you end up with a CV

837
00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:00,719
Speaker 4: that gets you into a job that you want, right

838
00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:02,920
Speaker 4: And I just think this, you know, there's just so

839
00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:07,399
Speaker 4: much pressure on I think, and to understand where you're

840
00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:08,120
Speaker 4: going and what.

841
00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:09,040
Speaker 3: You think you should be doing.

842
00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:13,279
Speaker 4: So I actually make a point of talking about the

843
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:16,399
Speaker 4: fact that it took me, you know, quite a few

844
00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:18,720
Speaker 4: years to get through UNI. I was fortunate didn't cost

845
00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:21,399
Speaker 4: what it costs to you guys now, but I did

846
00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:24,160
Speaker 4: fail two years of university because I had no idea

847
00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:26,239
Speaker 4: what I wanted to do. So I actually started off

848
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:32,520
Speaker 4: doing a psychology degree double degree and really struggled, and

849
00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:34,400
Speaker 4: I was doing a whole bunch of sport and athletics

850
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:37,440
Speaker 4: and just didn't know what I wanted to do. Decided

851
00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:41,399
Speaker 4: I didn't want to be a clinical psychologist. But yeah,

852
00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:42,520
Speaker 4: it was just sort of floundering.

853
00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:43,640
Speaker 1: You know.

854
00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:45,480
Speaker 3: When I came out of UNI, I couldn't I couldn't

855
00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:49,279
Speaker 3: get a job interview because your agrees were so bad.

856
00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:53,279
Speaker 4: My transcript was crap, And yeah, I'd done all these

857
00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:55,040
Speaker 4: other things, and I'd worked and I you know, I

858
00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:57,680
Speaker 4: had competed successfully in athletics and blah blah blah. But

859
00:41:58,440 --> 00:41:59,800
Speaker 4: you know, it was just on a wing at a

860
00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:01,800
Speaker 4: pres for me to go, well, those grades don't reflect

861
00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:05,759
Speaker 4: who I really am, and they're like, well whatever. So

862
00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:08,160
Speaker 4: I took a year off and worked for a little while,

863
00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:11,960
Speaker 4: traveled overseas, which was a great experience. You know, I

864
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:14,200
Speaker 4: met some people who just didn't have the opportunities that

865
00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:19,719
Speaker 4: I had, including a young woman studying economics, you know,

866
00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:22,799
Speaker 4: in in Turkey of all places, who was just never

867
00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:24,319
Speaker 4: going to have the opportunities that I had. And so

868
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:28,080
Speaker 4: I came back and started studying again to sort of

869
00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:29,879
Speaker 4: show that I could get through it, and then ended

870
00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:32,239
Speaker 4: up really enjoying it. So I guess, you know, at

871
00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:34,360
Speaker 4: the risk of sort of waffling on a bit about it,

872
00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:37,160
Speaker 4: I do think it's an important message for people to

873
00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:40,520
Speaker 4: life isn't a straight line, and as long as you're

874
00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:43,120
Speaker 4: sort of learning and growing and heading in a direction

875
00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:47,239
Speaker 4: that you're enjoying, you know, just keep going with it

876
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:49,879
Speaker 4: and when it stops working, then go and do something else.

877
00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:53,560
Speaker 2: It's so interesting because you have lived so many lives

878
00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:56,279
Speaker 2: that like I wasn't there for Like I always think

879
00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:59,719
Speaker 2: about how, you know, I've known you my entire life,

880
00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:02,200
Speaker 2: but you only known me for the last twenty four years,

881
00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:05,000
Speaker 2: and there were all these things that happened before me

882
00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:07,719
Speaker 2: that you have like a little wisdom from, like you

883
00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:10,480
Speaker 2: were my age once and like just going through the

884
00:43:10,520 --> 00:43:14,040
Speaker 2: insane level of like confusion and like big life changes.

885
00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:16,440
Speaker 2: And I do think that's a really nice message, and

886
00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:18,239
Speaker 2: I think that's one that you really always instilled in

887
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:21,359
Speaker 2: us of like there is not a clear blueprint for

888
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:24,919
Speaker 2: what creates a good life. You're allowed to like take

889
00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:28,680
Speaker 2: time to figure it out. And obviously we're all kind

890
00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:30,520
Speaker 2: of doing that now. Like what is this job? I

891
00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:33,000
Speaker 2: don't know what this This wasn't a job when I

892
00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:35,800
Speaker 2: was a kid, Actually it kind of was. Do you

893
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:38,200
Speaker 2: remember we used to always listen to the radio This

894
00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:41,759
Speaker 2: American Life. I love that show. So I feel like

895
00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:44,480
Speaker 2: that was such a huge inspiration. Did you experience a

896
00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:46,719
Speaker 2: lot of like imposter syndrome going back to UNI or

897
00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:50,400
Speaker 2: when you were applying for jobs again because your transcript

898
00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:52,080
Speaker 2: was so not great?

899
00:43:52,280 --> 00:43:55,520
Speaker 4: Well, it's really it's really funny like on imposter syndrome. Yes,

900
00:43:56,400 --> 00:43:59,960
Speaker 4: all through my career and you know I've done, I've

901
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:04,279
Speaker 4: chopped and changed a little bit and absolutely like I

902
00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:09,480
Speaker 4: can like like imposter syndrome when I started my first job,

903
00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:11,800
Speaker 4: because I started at Federal Treasury, and you know, to

904
00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:14,520
Speaker 4: get in there was challenging and there were you know,

905
00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:20,440
Speaker 4: my co cohort of grads was just so impressive. Like

906
00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:22,279
Speaker 4: in some ways, I was pretty focused on what I

907
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:24,080
Speaker 4: wanted to get out of that. I had a really

908
00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:27,279
Speaker 4: clear objective and so in some ways I kind of

909
00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:28,920
Speaker 4: ignored a whole bunch of other stuff, like if I'm

910
00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:30,879
Speaker 4: really honest, and you know, back to the question about

911
00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:32,960
Speaker 4: feminism or whatever, Like I had a goal and I

912
00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:36,799
Speaker 4: just ran hard at it, and in some ways I

913
00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:38,359
Speaker 4: was you know, people sort of said to me, well,

914
00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:43,560
Speaker 4: you were sort of singular focus on that opportunity, you know.

915
00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:45,880
Speaker 3: Was probably too much and whatever.

916
00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:48,920
Speaker 4: But you know, I don't think they would have said

917
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:51,200
Speaker 4: that if I was a man, to be honest, and.

918
00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:55,000
Speaker 2: It worked no way, So it didn't work you are now.

919
00:44:55,520 --> 00:44:59,239
Speaker 2: But so it was like you were doing economics, which

920
00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:02,520
Speaker 2: at the time a bit of a boys game. And

921
00:45:02,520 --> 00:45:05,840
Speaker 2: then also business is like the commerce kind of the

922
00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:07,120
Speaker 2: commerce side of it as well.

923
00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:08,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think.

924
00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:11,520
Speaker 4: Sorry, I'm sorry to interrupt. I also wanted to come

925
00:45:11,560 --> 00:45:15,040
Speaker 4: back on the imposter syndrome and my results. When I

926
00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:19,040
Speaker 4: was interviewed for Treasury, the person who was interviewing me

927
00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:23,560
Speaker 4: asked me precisely once about those my results and they

928
00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:24,960
Speaker 4: and they said, what happened here?

929
00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:28,080
Speaker 3: And I told them and that was it and never, what.

930
00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:29,440
Speaker 2: Did you say, You're just like I just didn't know

931
00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:29,960
Speaker 2: what I wanted.

932
00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:33,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, I said, I was doing all these other things.

933
00:45:33,080 --> 00:45:34,920
Speaker 3: I had way too much on. I didn't know what

934
00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:36,680
Speaker 3: I wanted. I was floundering.

935
00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:40,680
Speaker 4: I came back with intent and here's the results, and

936
00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:43,600
Speaker 4: that was fine, and sorry to come back. The reason

937
00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:45,800
Speaker 4: I wanted to come back to that is because fast

938
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:48,040
Speaker 4: forward a few years later, when I was actually interviewing

939
00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:51,759
Speaker 4: graduates for Treasury, there's a bunch of people being put

940
00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:56,000
Speaker 4: on piles who whose results kind of looked a bit

941
00:45:56,120 --> 00:45:59,719
Speaker 4: like mine, and I wanted to interview one or two

942
00:45:59,719 --> 00:46:03,319
Speaker 4: of them, and a few people in the room were

943
00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:05,920
Speaker 4: just like, no way, And so I fessed up and said, well,

944
00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:08,360
Speaker 4: you wouldn't have I wouldn't be here, like, don't.

945
00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:08,600
Speaker 2: You want to know.

946
00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:10,360
Speaker 4: Like, there's one person in particular, I was looking at

947
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:13,400
Speaker 4: their results and they'd gone from really poor results to

948
00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:15,239
Speaker 4: just knocking out of the pack, and I said, don't

949
00:46:15,239 --> 00:46:18,000
Speaker 4: you want to know what happened there? Don't don't you

950
00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:20,880
Speaker 4: because that switch has flipped and I want to know

951
00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:22,920
Speaker 4: what's gone on and what this person is up to

952
00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:25,960
Speaker 4: because that's the person I want to talk to. And

953
00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:28,160
Speaker 4: so again, it was just a kind of an interesting

954
00:46:28,760 --> 00:46:30,200
Speaker 4: life lesson if you like.

955
00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:35,280
Speaker 3: Boys jobs. Yeah, like I.

956
00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:38,319
Speaker 4: Probably Treasury, there were fair few female grads, and you know,

957
00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:40,880
Speaker 4: we were very focused on making sure we continue to

958
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:43,920
Speaker 4: recruit them. So yes, it was male dominated. It was

959
00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:46,880
Speaker 4: more that I had opportunities to be in really interesting

960
00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:49,879
Speaker 4: meetings where everyone who is more senior.

961
00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:55,800
Speaker 3: Was male, and that was good. It's I don't.

962
00:46:55,640 --> 00:46:58,440
Speaker 4: Know, maybe this is a funny side bar, but my

963
00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:02,360
Speaker 4: name's Melinda. People sometimes call me mel but at work

964
00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:05,359
Speaker 4: and particularly at Treasury. When I was at Treasury, that's

965
00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:08,640
Speaker 4: when I decided that people had to call me Milinda because.

966
00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:11,160
Speaker 2: Because mel sounds like a mail nate as well Mel Gibson,

967
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:12,360
Speaker 2: and that was too dismissive.

968
00:47:13,239 --> 00:47:15,719
Speaker 4: Oh really, I went into my male boss introduced me

969
00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:17,480
Speaker 4: one day and said, oh, this is mel and it

970
00:47:17,560 --> 00:47:19,640
Speaker 4: was just sort of this, it was just a throwaway line,

971
00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:22,640
Speaker 4: and I thought, I can't have that throwaway line, and

972
00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:22,879
Speaker 4: so so.

973
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:25,839
Speaker 2: You needed the extra syllables for the extra legitimacy.

974
00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:27,719
Speaker 3: Well it was, but it was just all part and

975
00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:29,040
Speaker 3: parcel of how you presented.

976
00:47:29,760 --> 00:47:31,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, I actually agree with that.

977
00:47:31,600 --> 00:47:34,040
Speaker 4: So I just thought I can't have him just saying that,

978
00:47:34,360 --> 00:47:36,319
Speaker 4: and you know, we work closely together, but it just

979
00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:40,680
Speaker 4: felt like it was a trivialization of my introduction.

980
00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:44,319
Speaker 2: So yeah, so you're kind of like at this point

981
00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:46,560
Speaker 2: in your career now where you just I'm sure you

982
00:47:46,600 --> 00:47:49,480
Speaker 2: feel pretty secure, like you're a bit of a boss bitch.

983
00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:53,520
Speaker 2: It's true though, and I know that like that word

984
00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:56,080
Speaker 2: like like she is such a boss, Like what is

985
00:47:56,120 --> 00:48:00,359
Speaker 2: it like, go a boss? It's girl boss. Is kind

986
00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:04,440
Speaker 2: of funny because it's no like, yeah, it's used very dismissively,

987
00:48:04,520 --> 00:48:08,279
Speaker 2: like you're a girl boss. But having come through so

988
00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:10,640
Speaker 2: many stages and like, I don't think you're going to

989
00:48:10,719 --> 00:48:14,719
Speaker 2: retire anytime soon, unless you you are, and then that's

990
00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:19,000
Speaker 2: a surprise for me. What advice would you give me

991
00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:21,799
Speaker 2: right now at this stage in my career, and I

992
00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:24,560
Speaker 2: know it's very different to what you're what you were

993
00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:26,719
Speaker 2: doing at twenty four. Like you hadn't even graduated at

994
00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:30,040
Speaker 2: twenty four, had you know, you wouldn't have you would

995
00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:31,480
Speaker 2: have just gotten your master's.

996
00:48:32,360 --> 00:48:34,440
Speaker 3: Oh I graduated a couple of degrees.

997
00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:40,040
Speaker 2: Oh, but what would you do now? What advice would

998
00:48:40,080 --> 00:48:41,200
Speaker 2: you give me at this stage?

999
00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:41,560
Speaker 3: Well?

1000
00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:44,319
Speaker 4: Can I can I ask a slightly different question? And

1001
00:48:44,320 --> 00:48:46,520
Speaker 4: then what can I respond to a question you haven't asked?

1002
00:48:46,560 --> 00:48:47,440
Speaker 4: And then I'll respond to that.

1003
00:48:47,440 --> 00:48:50,319
Speaker 2: Question you're asking the questions now you're taking over the show,

1004
00:48:50,520 --> 00:48:53,440
Speaker 2: Well you can if you want. Now I'm joking, you

1005
00:48:53,480 --> 00:48:54,239
Speaker 2: can totally do that.

1006
00:48:54,440 --> 00:48:57,120
Speaker 3: The one thing reference to sort of being.

1007
00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:00,920
Speaker 4: The sort of boss bitch language or whatever, or labeled

1008
00:49:01,600 --> 00:49:03,920
Speaker 4: girl boss or whatever you want to call it, like

1009
00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:04,160
Speaker 4: I do.

1010
00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:08,360
Speaker 3: I think I did want to say, there's one.

1011
00:49:08,160 --> 00:49:12,279
Speaker 4: Thing I've really enjoyed about leading an organization is being

1012
00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:14,240
Speaker 4: able to sort of set the tone and the values.

1013
00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:16,479
Speaker 4: And I think people can think about a whole bunch

1014
00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:19,480
Speaker 4: of things that being a CEO means or whatever, and

1015
00:49:19,520 --> 00:49:22,440
Speaker 4: there's a lot of there's different responsibilities. But probably the

1016
00:49:22,480 --> 00:49:25,800
Speaker 4: one thing I didn't really think about and underestimated was

1017
00:49:25,840 --> 00:49:30,439
Speaker 4: that was the sense of satisfaction that you get out

1018
00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:32,920
Speaker 4: of kind of being able to set the tone for

1019
00:49:32,960 --> 00:49:33,719
Speaker 4: an organization.

1020
00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:37,320
Speaker 3: And I think the reason that's.

1021
00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:38,520
Speaker 4: I'm kind of I'm using as a bit of a

1022
00:49:38,560 --> 00:49:40,839
Speaker 4: segue into your question because I think it's like it's

1023
00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:43,960
Speaker 4: it's caused me to sort of reflect on how you

1024
00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:47,719
Speaker 4: set your tone through your career, and I guess that's

1025
00:49:49,160 --> 00:49:51,360
Speaker 4: that would be my kind of advice. I guess is

1026
00:49:51,400 --> 00:49:54,400
Speaker 4: to you know, to think about, you know, who you

1027
00:49:54,440 --> 00:49:56,239
Speaker 4: are and what sort of person you want to be

1028
00:49:56,320 --> 00:50:01,080
Speaker 4: through the work that you do, and to not be

1029
00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:06,960
Speaker 4: necessarily confined by thinking about a particular role or a

1030
00:50:06,960 --> 00:50:10,879
Speaker 4: particular point in your career, but to you know, think

1031
00:50:10,920 --> 00:50:13,120
Speaker 4: about the things that you enjoy doing because you do

1032
00:50:13,200 --> 00:50:17,160
Speaker 4: them well and because you can have an impact whatever

1033
00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:20,120
Speaker 4: that is, and just that sort of tone and the

1034
00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:22,440
Speaker 4: values the way you want to live your life to

1035
00:50:22,880 --> 00:50:26,320
Speaker 4: find ways to live that through work, and that's probably

1036
00:50:26,320 --> 00:50:27,040
Speaker 4: something that.

1037
00:50:29,080 --> 00:50:32,000
Speaker 3: You gain a confidence to be able to do through

1038
00:50:32,040 --> 00:50:32,560
Speaker 3: your career.

1039
00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:35,759
Speaker 4: And when I look back, you know, it's probably one

1040
00:50:35,800 --> 00:50:38,480
Speaker 4: of the things you feel less confident doing when you're

1041
00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:41,799
Speaker 4: you know, early on in a job or whatever that

1042
00:50:41,840 --> 00:50:44,680
Speaker 4: you sort of feel sometimes you have to behave a

1043
00:50:44,719 --> 00:50:48,600
Speaker 4: particular way. It will be in a particular role. And

1044
00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:52,040
Speaker 4: you know, I was a company director at a very

1045
00:50:52,080 --> 00:50:54,920
Speaker 4: young age. I was the only woman on the first

1046
00:50:55,160 --> 00:50:58,600
Speaker 4: boards i joined, and there's certainly a lot of pressure

1047
00:50:58,640 --> 00:51:02,719
Speaker 4: to sort of be the persona of that and and

1048
00:51:02,800 --> 00:51:05,839
Speaker 4: I guess that's probably my bit of advice. If you

1049
00:51:05,840 --> 00:51:09,480
Speaker 4: can find a way to do that faster than I did,

1050
00:51:09,920 --> 00:51:11,640
Speaker 4: that would be my advice.

1051
00:51:11,840 --> 00:51:14,319
Speaker 2: Or to find to find like your mission, well like

1052
00:51:14,360 --> 00:51:14,759
Speaker 2: you're like.

1053
00:51:14,880 --> 00:51:17,600
Speaker 4: But also just just to be to be who you

1054
00:51:17,640 --> 00:51:21,720
Speaker 4: are and to know that that's you know, you don't

1055
00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:26,000
Speaker 4: have to be the you know, the the persona. You

1056
00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:28,040
Speaker 4: don't have to perform that role in the way other

1057
00:51:28,040 --> 00:51:31,000
Speaker 4: people have performed that role or be that person or

1058
00:51:31,360 --> 00:51:33,799
Speaker 4: and so it's just trying to be true to who

1059
00:51:33,880 --> 00:51:36,520
Speaker 4: you are as a person and bring that into your work.

1060
00:51:39,000 --> 00:51:40,960
Speaker 4: It's probably what i'd put on the table.

1061
00:51:41,960 --> 00:51:46,520
Speaker 2: Thanks, mam. I appreciate the advice. Now. I think that's

1062
00:51:46,560 --> 00:51:48,040
Speaker 2: all the questions that I have. Are there any more

1063
00:51:48,120 --> 00:51:51,399
Speaker 2: questions you would like to ask yourself if you.

1064
00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:53,120
Speaker 3: Feel the need No, no, no, that's it.

1065
00:51:54,360 --> 00:51:57,080
Speaker 2: You're yeah, that's good. I'm glad. I feel like We

1066
00:51:57,200 --> 00:52:00,439
Speaker 2: covered a lot of bases here. We talked about the hood,

1067
00:52:00,480 --> 00:52:03,960
Speaker 2: we talk about we talked about feminism, we talked about

1068
00:52:04,280 --> 00:52:06,719
Speaker 2: how you were a terrible parent and everything. I have

1069
00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:10,760
Speaker 2: to blame you for just kidding. Nothing was the answer.

1070
00:52:11,680 --> 00:52:14,840
Speaker 2: So thank you so much for coming on absolute pleasure.

1071
00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:18,439
Speaker 2: I could think of nothing else I'd rather be doing. Yeah, well,

1072
00:52:18,480 --> 00:52:22,319
Speaker 2: I'll that's so sweet. Why did that make me embarrassed?

1073
00:52:22,360 --> 00:52:25,520
Speaker 2: And like, oh, thanks mom? No, it was actually so nice,

1074
00:52:25,520 --> 00:52:27,000
Speaker 2: And I feel like it's so nice that we'll have

1075
00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:28,799
Speaker 2: this for like, it will be on the internet for

1076
00:52:28,840 --> 00:52:32,000
Speaker 2: a while and we can listen back to this when

1077
00:52:32,040 --> 00:52:34,200
Speaker 2: I'm thinking about putting you in a home or something.

1078
00:52:34,480 --> 00:52:37,160
Speaker 4: Oh, you can just play it on repeat and I'll

1079
00:52:37,160 --> 00:52:37,680
Speaker 4: feel happy.

1080
00:52:38,239 --> 00:52:39,799
Speaker 2: Oh, I'm not going to put you in a home.

1081
00:52:39,880 --> 00:52:40,960
Speaker 2: Do you want to be putting a home?

1082
00:52:41,239 --> 00:52:44,120
Speaker 3: It depends, it depends. You may want to put me

1083
00:52:44,160 --> 00:52:44,600
Speaker 3: in home.

1084
00:52:45,480 --> 00:52:47,560
Speaker 2: No, I won't for as long as possible.

1085
00:52:49,160 --> 00:52:51,680
Speaker 3: I'm looking forward to coming and sleeping on your couch tomorrow.

1086
00:52:52,400 --> 00:52:54,200
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, yeah, my mum's coming to stay in

1087
00:52:54,200 --> 00:52:56,440
Speaker 2: my new place tomorrow. It's very comfy. I actually had

1088
00:52:56,480 --> 00:53:00,000
Speaker 2: a lie down on it before I tested it for you.

1089
00:53:00,080 --> 00:53:02,560
Speaker 2: Perfect I can't believe I'm making you sleep on the couch,

1090
00:53:03,080 --> 00:53:05,360
Speaker 2: but unfortunately the bed's taken.

1091
00:53:07,360 --> 00:53:07,600
Speaker 3: Well.

1092
00:53:07,640 --> 00:53:10,040
Speaker 2: Thank you again for coming on. As always, if you

1093
00:53:10,160 --> 00:53:13,120
Speaker 2: enjoyed this episode, please feel free to leave a five

1094
00:53:13,160 --> 00:53:16,160
Speaker 2: star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you are listening

1095
00:53:16,239 --> 00:53:18,520
Speaker 2: right now, share it with a friend if they would

1096
00:53:18,560 --> 00:53:20,839
Speaker 2: like to hear it, And if you have any further

1097
00:53:20,880 --> 00:53:25,839
Speaker 2: episode suggestions questions for my girl boss mum, please feel

1098
00:53:25,880 --> 00:53:29,080
Speaker 2: free to dm me on Instagram at that Psychology podcast

1099
00:53:29,600 --> 00:53:31,680
Speaker 2: or my personal at gemmas Bag and we will be

1100
00:53:31,680 --> 00:53:38,480
Speaker 2: back next week for another episode.