WEBVTT - Thinking Sideways: The Murder of Julia Wallace 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:05.240 Thinking Sideways is not brought to you by unicorns on unicycles. Instead, 0:00:05.320 --> 0:00:09.720 it's supported by the generous donations of our listeners on Patreon. 0:00:10.280 --> 0:00:13.880 Visit patreon dot com slash thinking sideways to learn more 0:00:14.200 --> 0:00:23.919 and thanks Thinking Sideways. I don't understand you never know 0:00:28.720 --> 0:00:31.320 stories of things we simply don't know the answer too. 0:00:34.080 --> 0:00:38.560 Hey guys, welcome to another episode of Thinking Sideways the podcast. 0:00:38.760 --> 0:00:44.880 I'm Devin, joined us always by Steve, Joe and somebody 0:00:44.880 --> 0:00:51.919 else apparently. Yeah, that's true. Here today, we're gonna talk 0:00:51.920 --> 0:00:56.440 about a mystery, a pretty big mystery actually, kind of 0:00:56.840 --> 0:01:00.520 one that's touted as one of the biggest unsolved mysteries. 0:01:00.680 --> 0:01:02.720 This is one of those ones that you'll here referred 0:01:02.760 --> 0:01:06.040 to on the lists on the internet of locker room 0:01:06.120 --> 0:01:10.000 mysteries kind of style where it's the perfect perfect mystery. Yeah, 0:01:10.319 --> 0:01:12.400 it's always ranked up in there. It is, and I 0:01:12.440 --> 0:01:17.119 have to say it's it's a puzzler for sure, But 0:01:18.000 --> 0:01:23.039 for as big a mystery it is, there's not it's 0:01:21.520 --> 0:01:26.120 not big. Yeah, well you know, but still people have 0:01:26.120 --> 0:01:27.720 been chewing over for a long time. A lot of 0:01:27.720 --> 0:01:30.399 famous people like Raymond Chandler, for example, says it's his 0:01:30.440 --> 0:01:33.040 favorite mystery of all time, or said it was like 0:01:33.120 --> 0:01:38.560 he's dead, but he might still say mystery. Yet he 0:01:38.560 --> 0:01:43.400 didn't have any knows the answer now and find out Yeah, okay, 0:01:43.480 --> 0:01:48.280 so he was ready, Yeah, okay. In the evening of Monday, 0:01:48.400 --> 0:01:55.680 January of nine one, sometime between sixty five and five pm, 0:01:55.760 --> 0:02:00.680 Julia Wallace was beaten to death brutally. Her husband, William 0:02:00.720 --> 0:02:04.720 Herbert Wallace seemed a really likely suspect and was arrested, tried, 0:02:04.800 --> 0:02:08.520 and convicted. So what's the mystery. Well, uh, it turns 0:02:08.520 --> 0:02:12.280 out the evidence was really really lacking in the case 0:02:12.320 --> 0:02:16.359 against Mr Wallace, pretty so shoddy in fact, that the 0:02:16.400 --> 0:02:19.760 Criminal Court of Appeals officially pardoned him and declared he 0:02:19.760 --> 0:02:23.799 was innocent and totally said nope, he's not guilty at all. 0:02:23.960 --> 0:02:27.600 He's free to go. And nobody knows who did this crime. 0:02:28.120 --> 0:02:30.639 He knows who murdered Julia Wallace. There's a few suspects, 0:02:30.639 --> 0:02:34.119 but yeah, it's interesting. When he was tried, I think 0:02:34.160 --> 0:02:35.880 his demeanor kind of did him and he was kind 0:02:35.880 --> 0:02:40.160 of another one of those those Bramber cases. Yeah, and 0:02:40.919 --> 0:02:43.359 he was apparently not liked by the jury because the 0:02:43.760 --> 0:02:47.320 judge when when he was instructing the jury all but 0:02:47.480 --> 0:02:49.680 told them they had to let him off. Yeah, and 0:02:49.720 --> 0:02:52.959 they convicted him anyway because the evidence was just so weak. Yeah, 0:02:53.000 --> 0:02:55.800 and we'll talk more about that. Yeah, was actually kind 0:02:55.800 --> 0:03:00.720 of non existent. Yeah yeah, yeah. Yeah. So so let's 0:03:00.880 --> 0:03:05.520 tell the story. Let's tell the story first, okay, okay, 0:03:05.639 --> 0:03:08.239 And I want to just introduce you to the two 0:03:08.240 --> 0:03:11.840 main characters. I guess the first character would be one 0:03:12.160 --> 0:03:16.680 Mrs Wallace. Her maiden name was Dennis. She was Julia Dennis. 0:03:16.800 --> 0:03:22.760 Originally she married Mr Wallace in March of nineteen fourteen. 0:03:23.320 --> 0:03:27.480 She was significantly older than Mr Wallace. I think it 0:03:27.600 --> 0:03:29.959 was seventeen years according to the dates I could find 0:03:29.960 --> 0:03:32.600 on the wiki. There's a lot of contention over that 0:03:32.639 --> 0:03:34.920 because for a long time people said that they were 0:03:34.960 --> 0:03:37.240 around the same age. Everybody thought that they were they 0:03:37.280 --> 0:03:42.040 were definitely contemporaries. And then I think somebody was able 0:03:42.080 --> 0:03:44.960 to find her original birth certificate was in the last 0:03:45.000 --> 0:03:47.720 decade or two. Yeah, I think so too, um, which 0:03:47.960 --> 0:03:50.440 which said that she was seventeen years older than him. 0:03:50.480 --> 0:03:52.640 So she was fifty three when they were married and 0:03:52.720 --> 0:03:55.680 he was thirty six, which is quite reverse. It's a 0:03:55.680 --> 0:03:59.040 reversal of roles for the time, but it's also still 0:03:59.120 --> 0:04:01.560 that's still a big gap. But it used to be 0:04:01.600 --> 0:04:06.640 the old man would marry the younger woman. Days, some 0:04:06.680 --> 0:04:08.880 people kind of point to that as maybe something that 0:04:09.280 --> 0:04:12.960 had to do with the murder. I think that, Yeah, 0:04:13.000 --> 0:04:16.080 I think it's really silly, but I've seen that tossed around, 0:04:16.240 --> 0:04:20.640 so uh, just to go ahead and throw that out. Actually, 0:04:20.600 --> 0:04:22.520 I think that her age might have had if you 0:04:22.800 --> 0:04:24.400 if you didn't need to killer, her age might have 0:04:24.400 --> 0:04:25.599 had something to do with it. You want to hear 0:04:25.640 --> 0:04:28.719 about it now? No, No, I don't know what could 0:04:28.720 --> 0:04:32.440 you talk about that later. Julia was originally the daughter 0:04:32.560 --> 0:04:36.960 of a quote ruined alcoholic farmer unquote, and there's really 0:04:37.000 --> 0:04:40.279 like nothing about her except for that she played the 0:04:40.320 --> 0:04:42.960 piano quite well. I think she was an accomplished pianist, 0:04:43.040 --> 0:04:46.479 is how they describe her. And she doesn't even have 0:04:46.520 --> 0:04:48.839 her own Wikipedia page, just bite being the victim of 0:04:48.880 --> 0:04:53.400 this crime. No, I mean that's it's interesting that there's 0:04:53.520 --> 0:04:56.080 I think there's a lot to be said about a victim. 0:04:56.120 --> 0:04:58.560 I think that the victim really informs the crime a 0:04:58.600 --> 0:05:01.479 lot of times. So I am sad that there's not 0:05:01.520 --> 0:05:03.680 more information about her out there because I think it 0:05:03.800 --> 0:05:05.720 just seems like we would be able to know more 0:05:05.839 --> 0:05:09.240 about the crime maybe or everybody focused on her husband. 0:05:10.040 --> 0:05:12.839 Details of her were just left behind, and that maybe 0:05:12.839 --> 0:05:15.159 why we won't ever be able to solve it, because 0:05:15.480 --> 0:05:17.760 there may be things about her that we just don't 0:05:17.760 --> 0:05:20.960 have access to anywhere. Absolutely, I was able to find 0:05:21.000 --> 0:05:23.680 some quote some people, some people about her. She was 0:05:23.760 --> 0:05:28.360 described as meek and kind of uninteresting, and yeah, yeah, 0:05:28.360 --> 0:05:32.040 there was one person who was looking in on them 0:05:32.040 --> 0:05:35.839 for about three weeks in her name was Florence Mary Wilson, 0:05:36.279 --> 0:05:41.080 and William Wallace had about a pneumonia and so this 0:05:41.080 --> 0:05:44.680 this person was basically, you know, looking after them, and 0:05:44.960 --> 0:05:47.200 she said that she says she thought Julie was a 0:05:47.240 --> 0:05:50.320 poorhousekeeper who basically laid around and did nothing, and she 0:05:50.360 --> 0:05:54.080 said she had no enthusiasm for anything. And she said 0:05:54.120 --> 0:05:56.760 she didn't really think that they were a happy couple. Yeah, 0:05:56.800 --> 0:05:58.440 and so there's a there's a little bit of insight. 0:05:58.520 --> 0:06:00.280 Of course, you know, that's a small window. It doesn't 0:06:00.279 --> 0:06:02.960 necessarily mean she was always that way. But there were 0:06:02.960 --> 0:06:04.840 other people also who said that they didn't really think 0:06:04.880 --> 0:06:07.880 it was a happy marriage. Yeah, it's interesting. They people 0:06:07.880 --> 0:06:10.039 didn't seem to think it was a happy marriage. But 0:06:10.200 --> 0:06:13.760 they lived in this kind of townhouse row house situation 0:06:13.880 --> 0:06:18.479 that's pretty common in London Liverpool, I guess. But they 0:06:18.560 --> 0:06:21.080 so they shared walls with their next door neighbors, and 0:06:21.120 --> 0:06:24.320 their neighbors said they never heard them raised voices or 0:06:24.520 --> 0:06:27.040 really talking at all, which may have been a sign. 0:06:27.040 --> 0:06:29.080 I guess that they didn't talk that much, but it 0:06:29.160 --> 0:06:31.800 could be they had their own but they didn't. Yeah, 0:06:31.839 --> 0:06:34.920 but yeah, there's there's definitely loudly. There's two different ways 0:06:35.000 --> 0:06:37.840 to go about hating each other, and we've seen and 0:06:37.920 --> 0:06:40.560 really it's people with their relationship they or yell at 0:06:40.600 --> 0:06:44.479 each other, were they say nothing. So it maybe that 0:06:44.480 --> 0:06:47.760 that's why nobody heard anything. They just did their own 0:06:47.760 --> 0:06:50.080 thing and ignored each other. So let's talk a little 0:06:50.080 --> 0:06:53.800 bit about Wallace. Mr Wallace. We're just gonna call We're 0:06:53.800 --> 0:06:55.760 going to refer to him as Wallace through the rest 0:06:55.800 --> 0:06:57.919 of this thing, because apparently he's the only one that 0:06:57.960 --> 0:07:01.520 really matters. And then we'll call Julia Wallace Julia Okay. 0:07:02.000 --> 0:07:06.080 Wallace was born in eighteen seventy eight, and he left 0:07:06.120 --> 0:07:08.240 school at fourteen when he started to train to be 0:07:08.279 --> 0:07:10.720 a Draper's assistant. He got a job with the company 0:07:10.760 --> 0:07:15.200 that outfitted Her Majesty's Armed Forces and the Colonial, Indian 0:07:15.240 --> 0:07:18.280 and Foreign Services in Manchester. He spent five years with 0:07:18.320 --> 0:07:22.360 the company. Company then transferred to Calcutta, India, then Shanghai 0:07:22.400 --> 0:07:25.840 two years after that with the same company. His youngest 0:07:25.880 --> 0:07:28.880 brother lived in Shanghai, so there was a familial connection. 0:07:30.000 --> 0:07:32.800 He had a bum kidney, so he had to return 0:07:32.840 --> 0:07:35.600 to England in nineteen oh seven. He didn't want to 0:07:35.600 --> 0:07:38.280 have it cut out in Shanghai. Yeah, for some reason 0:07:38.920 --> 0:07:41.320 in England. Yeah, he decided to come back to England, 0:07:41.360 --> 0:07:43.040 so we did actually have the operation he had to 0:07:43.080 --> 0:07:45.960 cut out. And then there's about a four year gap 0:07:46.360 --> 0:07:52.080 in between there until he became an election agent in 0:07:52.200 --> 0:07:55.600 nineteen eleven where he met Julia and then they got 0:07:55.600 --> 0:07:58.320 married in nineteen fourteen, as we said, and then they 0:07:58.440 --> 0:08:02.360 moved to Liverpool in nineteen fifteen because he had lost 0:08:02.400 --> 0:08:07.320 his job. And yeah, it was because it was it 0:08:07.440 --> 0:08:11.200 wasn't didn't you lose his job because the position of 0:08:11.240 --> 0:08:15.280 elections was just basically totally eliminated in that the reason 0:08:16.160 --> 0:08:19.000 there was some Crown rule that eliminated all of the 0:08:19.040 --> 0:08:21.400 work that he was doing. Yeah, yeah, I was totally eliminated. 0:08:21.440 --> 0:08:23.200 So he lost his job and he called his dad 0:08:23.200 --> 0:08:24.960 and was like, Dad, I need a job, and he 0:08:25.320 --> 0:08:28.800 his father helped him get a job with the Prudential 0:08:28.840 --> 0:08:32.960 Insurance Company as a collections agent. And the Prudential is 0:08:33.040 --> 0:08:36.959 an insurance life insurance company by and large, and they're 0:08:37.000 --> 0:08:40.920 based in Liverpool. So yeah, the couple is described as meek. 0:08:41.080 --> 0:08:45.160 Wallace had an unusually curious brain for the time I gather, 0:08:45.640 --> 0:08:49.480 and that I guess it wasn't typical for a person, 0:08:50.200 --> 0:08:52.840 particularly a man, but a person to take interest in 0:08:52.920 --> 0:08:56.040 kind of a wide variety of topics, but Wallace did. 0:08:56.400 --> 0:08:59.880 He supplemented his time and income by lecturing in chemist 0:09:00.720 --> 0:09:03.520 He had an interest in botany. He was a violinist, 0:09:04.120 --> 0:09:07.160 He was an amateur electrician, He had a lab electric 0:09:08.160 --> 0:09:12.320 with electricity at home. And he loved chess. And he 0:09:12.480 --> 0:09:16.280 was in fact a member of the Liverpool Central Chess Club. 0:09:16.400 --> 0:09:19.800 Not to be confused with the Liverpool Chess Club or 0:09:19.840 --> 0:09:22.360 the Central Chess Club, because those are two other things. 0:09:23.640 --> 0:09:26.080 And this that's a very serious offense to be taken. 0:09:26.160 --> 0:09:29.120 Apparently in my research I found I didn't know that 0:09:29.840 --> 0:09:32.120 is this a Chess Club still in existence and they 0:09:32.160 --> 0:09:35.840 still meet at the same place. No, No, the Central 0:09:36.000 --> 0:09:40.320 Chess Club is still a thing, I think, but this 0:09:40.400 --> 0:09:43.760 particular one, I'm pretty sure was eventually disbanded. Yeah, it 0:09:43.840 --> 0:09:46.240 was pretty small when Wallace was going to it. It 0:09:46.320 --> 0:09:48.719 was you know, they weren't very good chess players, and 0:09:48.760 --> 0:09:51.360 it was a small chess club and then this whole 0:09:51.400 --> 0:09:54.839 thing happened and it was kind of a third drink club. Yeah. 0:09:55.400 --> 0:09:58.520 So actually, uh, our story kind of begins at a 0:09:58.520 --> 0:10:01.600 meeting of this club. So we want to just transition 0:10:01.600 --> 0:10:06.120 into that. Yeah, definitely hustling into cool. So January nineteenth, 0:10:06.559 --> 0:10:09.280 nineteen thirty one, Wallace was meant to be competing in 0:10:09.320 --> 0:10:12.560 a chess championship over a number of months, and so 0:10:12.640 --> 0:10:14.760 this was one match that he was supposed to be 0:10:14.800 --> 0:10:17.440 competing in. His game was scheduled to start at seven 0:10:17.559 --> 0:10:22.080 forty five pm, and at seven twenty pm, I believe 0:10:22.559 --> 0:10:28.360 the Chess Club received a phone call from a R M. Quality. 0:10:32.760 --> 0:10:36.160 He was looking for Wallace um and he left a 0:10:36.200 --> 0:10:40.079 message with the club captain, whose name was Samuel Beattie. 0:10:40.240 --> 0:10:42.920 The message was that Mr Wallace was requested to call 0:10:43.040 --> 0:10:47.000 upon Mr Qualtro that's how he's going to say from 0:10:47.040 --> 0:10:52.200 now on Qualtro. The next evening, at about seven thirty pm, 0:10:52.320 --> 0:10:56.720 at twenty five men Love Gardens East regarding an insurance issue, 0:10:57.559 --> 0:11:01.319 because one of Wallace's jobs was to sell insurance as 0:11:01.360 --> 0:11:04.560 well as collect insurance, does and things like that, and 0:11:04.600 --> 0:11:08.199 so it seemed that this gentleman had some insurance business 0:11:08.520 --> 0:11:10.760 to carry out. I think that's one thing it took 0:11:10.800 --> 0:11:12.400 me a while to figure out, and a lot of 0:11:12.440 --> 0:11:16.200 people aren't familiar with this now, but in those days, 0:11:16.360 --> 0:11:20.079 you had to walk around and collect payment from your customers. 0:11:20.520 --> 0:11:22.280 So that's one of the big things he did, is 0:11:22.320 --> 0:11:25.640 he walked around town all day and pick up money. Yeah, 0:11:25.640 --> 0:11:29.320 I got money from probably get him in good shape, probably. Yeah. 0:11:29.360 --> 0:11:32.400 So Mr Wallace obviously wasn't there at the time, and 0:11:32.440 --> 0:11:36.200 the caller did ask Beatie is Mr Wallace expected to 0:11:36.200 --> 0:11:38.439 be there tonight? And he said, oh, I don't know 0:11:38.720 --> 0:11:40.480 if I can expect him or not, because it turns 0:11:40.480 --> 0:11:45.560 out he was fairly delinquent in his attendance. I thought 0:11:45.600 --> 0:11:48.520 it was they said once a fortnight, so once every 0:11:48.720 --> 0:11:53.360 two weeks, fourteen fourteen days. So he didn't know. Beati 0:11:53.440 --> 0:11:55.400 didn't know if Wallace was going to show up or not. 0:11:55.600 --> 0:11:57.320 He said he if he was going to be there, 0:11:57.360 --> 0:11:59.840 he'd be there soon and he'd relay the message. While 0:12:00.040 --> 0:12:03.440 said that he had never heard of Caltra, and he 0:12:03.520 --> 0:12:07.280 also hadn't heard of Men Love, Men Loves Garden, Men 0:12:07.360 --> 0:12:10.800 Love Gardens East, and he and a member of a 0:12:10.920 --> 0:12:13.520 few other members of the chess club discussed it, and 0:12:13.559 --> 0:12:15.240 he just I think he said, well, I've got a 0:12:15.280 --> 0:12:18.400 Scotch tongue in my brain or in my head or 0:12:18.440 --> 0:12:23.400 something like that, a very odd meaning that he would 0:12:23.400 --> 0:12:25.640 find it. They all figured it was just off Men 0:12:25.679 --> 0:12:29.640 Love Avenue somewhere and that'd be that, and that that's 0:12:29.679 --> 0:12:32.480 the way it was. Because I did I did some 0:12:32.559 --> 0:12:34.680 reading on this because I didn't understand why this guy 0:12:34.679 --> 0:12:37.560 would just go trooping across town not knowing where he 0:12:37.640 --> 0:12:39.800 was going. That would freak me out. But it just 0:12:39.840 --> 0:12:41.960 turns out, you, okay, well, I know this has got 0:12:41.960 --> 0:12:43.760 to be off of that, so I'm just gonna walk 0:12:43.800 --> 0:12:46.040 down it until I find it. Yeah, and they, and 0:12:46.120 --> 0:12:48.680 you know, one of the guys at the club said, well, 0:12:48.720 --> 0:12:52.280 I know Men Love Gardens North or something, you know. 0:12:52.400 --> 0:12:55.000 So I think they just all thought, well, it must 0:12:55.000 --> 0:12:58.640 be there somewhere. There's a north south and west east. Yeah. 0:12:58.880 --> 0:13:03.280 So despite knowing really anything about this, it just being 0:13:03.360 --> 0:13:06.840 kind of a blind call, Wallace decides to keep the appointment. 0:13:07.160 --> 0:13:10.400 So the next day on he arrives home from work 0:13:10.440 --> 0:13:14.080 around six pm, and then sometime between six thirty and 0:13:14.080 --> 0:13:17.400 sixty five, the milk boy stopped to pick up his money, 0:13:17.440 --> 0:13:19.439 which he got from Julia. He said, I got it 0:13:19.480 --> 0:13:23.760 from Julia. There's been some speculation that it was Wallace 0:13:23.800 --> 0:13:28.520 and Drag but I'm sure it wasn't. It was definitely Julia. 0:13:28.760 --> 0:13:31.560 And then I don't know how the milk boy would 0:13:31.600 --> 0:13:34.880 have known what time it was. He said this other 0:13:34.920 --> 0:13:37.679 time when a church clock and there was either right 0:13:37.720 --> 0:13:40.040 before or right after, and there was one. Yeah, there's 0:13:40.080 --> 0:13:41.920 a there's a church a few walks away that's got 0:13:41.960 --> 0:13:45.360 three clocks on its on it, so he would have known, 0:13:46.160 --> 0:13:48.560 so we can presume his time is about correct. Yeah. 0:13:48.559 --> 0:13:50.560 I don't know if anybody checked at the police checked 0:13:50.559 --> 0:13:52.800 the church to see if the clocks were correct. Yeah, 0:13:53.080 --> 0:13:55.040 that would have something to check on the we're running 0:13:55.040 --> 0:13:58.200 on daylight savings something like that. That would be too bad. 0:13:58.360 --> 0:14:00.880 The Liverpool Police in this case that they the locals 0:14:00.920 --> 0:14:06.400 called them the jiggery Pokey. Yeah. Yeah, they didn't have 0:14:06.440 --> 0:14:10.000 the best reputation. Um. I think the Milk boys saw 0:14:10.040 --> 0:14:12.600 Wallace there too. I'm not sure, but I got on 0:14:12.640 --> 0:14:15.240 Google Maps. I pulled the Joe, got on Google Maps 0:14:15.240 --> 0:14:19.240 and map directions from Wallaces the Wallaces rented flat to 0:14:20.560 --> 0:14:23.520 men Love Gardens West, because I that's a natural address 0:14:24.000 --> 0:14:27.240 and on today's transit it would take no less than 0:14:27.600 --> 0:14:30.520 thirty seven minutes. And according to the train schedules at 0:14:30.520 --> 0:14:32.880 the time, which I actually looked up, he would have 0:14:33.000 --> 0:14:37.000 had to have been on the tram at sixty nine 0:14:37.280 --> 0:14:40.400 pm for the whole timeline to make sense. And it's 0:14:40.520 --> 0:14:43.320 verified that he's coming off of that tram at exactly 0:14:43.400 --> 0:14:46.880 the right time. So we can assume, I think pretty 0:14:46.920 --> 0:14:50.080 reasonably that he was definitely on the tram at six 0:14:50.760 --> 0:14:53.880 pm that night. Yeah, and how he's done the conversations 0:14:53.880 --> 0:14:56.920 that directly followed that, Yeah, absolutely. And how far was 0:14:57.040 --> 0:15:01.560 the tram stop from his house? Not very far, but 0:15:02.800 --> 0:15:05.480 it's a bit of a walk, maybe five minutes, not 0:15:05.640 --> 0:15:09.640 anything now, Okay, hang on, So I remember something about 0:15:10.400 --> 0:15:14.960 in their awesome investigations police having a young fit officer 0:15:15.520 --> 0:15:18.600 played the part of Wallace, and I remember there was 0:15:18.720 --> 0:15:21.440 discussions of him running, and so I was under the 0:15:21.480 --> 0:15:24.480 impression that meant that he was running from the house 0:15:25.080 --> 0:15:27.000 to the tram stop, which made me think the tramp 0:15:27.040 --> 0:15:31.040 shop was farther the two mile running things, okay, and 0:15:31.080 --> 0:15:33.480 that he ran to get there at seven oh six 0:15:33.560 --> 0:15:36.160 to make this transfer. I don't remember, okay. So the 0:15:36.240 --> 0:15:39.480 two miles thing is that he made a transfer to 0:15:39.520 --> 0:15:41.960 a different tram and had an interaction with the conductor 0:15:41.960 --> 0:15:45.680 of that tram, and that transfer spot was two miles away. 0:15:45.800 --> 0:15:48.080 So I presumed that they were trying to see if 0:15:48.120 --> 0:15:52.640 anybody fit could run that two miles in the allotted 0:15:52.720 --> 0:15:56.640 time that that they would have needed and bypassed that 0:15:56.680 --> 0:16:04.560 first train bad Kidney had recently, Yeah, I think. Yeah. 0:16:04.680 --> 0:16:08.360 He was a heavy smoker too, wasn't Heah. Yeah, Actually, 0:16:08.800 --> 0:16:10.920 it's absurd to assume that he could have kept that 0:16:10.960 --> 0:16:13.600 page well and then nobody would have noticed this guy running, 0:16:13.640 --> 0:16:16.400 you know, breakneck page right, or or that the conversation 0:16:16.440 --> 0:16:18.680 he would have had with the conductor, the conductor wouldn't 0:16:18.680 --> 0:16:24.440 have said, oh and he was super breathless by the way, sweating. Yeah. Actually, 0:16:24.480 --> 0:16:27.240 the police actually didn't just do one detective running. They 0:16:27.480 --> 0:16:30.040 sent out a hole like a half a dozen teams 0:16:30.400 --> 0:16:33.880 at various times to try different just to see yeah, 0:16:33.960 --> 0:16:37.600 which is only probably the most thorough job they did 0:16:37.600 --> 0:16:40.360 on any part of it. But no, I think that's 0:16:40.400 --> 0:16:42.600 what you're talking about. The two miles that you're thinking of. 0:16:42.680 --> 0:16:45.640 I think the tram stop and I'm sorry to anybody 0:16:45.720 --> 0:16:47.920 who's going to call us out on that. I don't 0:16:47.960 --> 0:16:50.320 actually know, but I think it was a five minute 0:16:50.360 --> 0:16:53.680 walk or something. It wasn't that far, Yeah, Because the 0:16:53.720 --> 0:16:56.320 two miles that you are talking about is the transfer 0:16:56.360 --> 0:17:00.320 he made two miles away from his home for one 0:17:00.360 --> 0:17:03.240 tram to the other like their street cars, right, you 0:17:03.240 --> 0:17:05.760 guys know what trams are, okay. And that was at 0:17:05.880 --> 0:17:09.399 seven oh six pm, which you know was right on 0:17:09.440 --> 0:17:11.880 schedule with him being on the tram right before at 0:17:11.960 --> 0:17:16.159 the sixtine mark, and he had a conversation with the 0:17:16.200 --> 0:17:19.560 conductor and he he asked him directions to men Love 0:17:19.640 --> 0:17:24.520 Gardens East and was told to transfer trams again at 0:17:24.520 --> 0:17:27.960 Penny Lane and he spent most of that ten minute 0:17:28.080 --> 0:17:31.320 ride pestering the driver to not forget to call out 0:17:31.359 --> 0:17:34.000 Penny Lane. And a lot of people think that's suspicious. 0:17:34.080 --> 0:17:37.680 I think it's I think it's just like a nerve. 0:17:37.880 --> 0:17:40.879 I would. I've done stuff like that before, not like 0:17:40.960 --> 0:17:44.159 the entire time, because I've then gotten really awkward and 0:17:44.200 --> 0:17:47.399 thought like, oh, I'm annoying this person. But if I 0:17:47.400 --> 0:17:50.600 don't know where I'm going, I get really anxious, And 0:17:50.960 --> 0:17:53.280 especially if I were trying to make a meeting and 0:17:53.320 --> 0:17:55.639 I really didn't know where I was going and was 0:17:55.680 --> 0:17:58.200 maybe running a little late. By my own sense, I 0:17:58.480 --> 0:18:01.000 I definitely can see the like, okay, but don't forget 0:18:01.040 --> 0:18:03.000 to call, Like, don't forget to do it. Don't have 0:18:03.080 --> 0:18:04.600 we missed it. I really don't know where I am 0:18:04.680 --> 0:18:08.679 right now, Like everything was lit up and easy to see. 0:18:08.720 --> 0:18:13.359 It's January, it's you know, it's December, and it's dark 0:18:13.400 --> 0:18:16.920 at you know, four o'clock right now, so it's it's 0:18:17.160 --> 0:18:20.400 dark out. And also you know, he can't pull your 0:18:20.600 --> 0:18:23.520 map or phone out of your back pocket. You have 0:18:23.560 --> 0:18:25.639 no idea what's going on. Wasn't as easy back in 0:18:25.680 --> 0:18:27.840 those days. Yeah, So I just I don't think it's 0:18:27.840 --> 0:18:30.159 as suspicious as most people think, but some people do 0:18:30.200 --> 0:18:33.000 think it's really suspicious. Yeah, A lot of people feel 0:18:33.000 --> 0:18:36.159 that he tried to call people's attention to himself repeatedly. 0:18:36.320 --> 0:18:38.920 There there's a lot of that in this story though, 0:18:39.160 --> 0:18:41.040 But there's a lot of I gotta admit. I'll just 0:18:41.080 --> 0:18:42.840 tell you right now. There's several things that I'm just 0:18:42.840 --> 0:18:45.680 going to point out with one word, which is claim. Yea, 0:18:45.880 --> 0:18:48.600 they claim. They make a lot of claims about certain 0:18:48.600 --> 0:18:52.840 things that he did them. So the conductor, of course 0:18:53.440 --> 0:18:58.320 did not forget to st Yeah, he was like, oh 0:18:58.359 --> 0:19:00.600 my god, get off now. He's like, this is your stop, 0:19:00.640 --> 0:19:04.480 get off, uh, And Wallace made the connection no problem. 0:19:04.600 --> 0:19:08.320 He got on the next tram and he asked the 0:19:08.320 --> 0:19:12.160 conductor promptly, Hey, where do I get off for men 0:19:12.240 --> 0:19:15.320 Love Gardens East. The conductor said, you get off at 0:19:15.359 --> 0:19:19.199 men Love Avenue and walk and probably was told to 0:19:19.480 --> 0:19:24.440 just saw it off and look for it, because I guess, yeah, 0:19:24.560 --> 0:19:26.199 just get off here. And it was only like a 0:19:26.200 --> 0:19:29.560 six hundred foot ride or something like that. It was 0:19:29.760 --> 0:19:32.639 stupid short, but I think all the conductors were just like, 0:19:33.240 --> 0:19:35.200 you do this. I don't know, you just do this thing. 0:19:35.440 --> 0:19:37.760 But he did. He got off at the avenue and 0:19:38.160 --> 0:19:41.040 started to search for men Love Gardens East. There was 0:19:41.080 --> 0:19:45.199 a men Love Gardens North, South and West but not east. 0:19:46.119 --> 0:19:49.560 Apparently he was really determined, so he asked a number 0:19:49.600 --> 0:19:52.480 of passers by, you know, where is the street? None 0:19:52.480 --> 0:19:56.280 of them had ever heard of men Love Gardens East. 0:19:57.160 --> 0:20:01.240 He went to men Love Gardens West to see if 0:20:01.280 --> 0:20:03.960 they knew anything about it. They said, no, we've never 0:20:04.000 --> 0:20:06.960 heard of anybody, and we didn't make a call. Go away. 0:20:07.600 --> 0:20:10.320 Wallace did what you're meant to do and found a 0:20:10.359 --> 0:20:15.000 local beat cop next and okay, people, there's the claim. 0:20:15.080 --> 0:20:17.359 And I think the cops said this, so I'm willing 0:20:17.400 --> 0:20:20.239 to say that this happened. But instead of just saying, oh, 0:20:20.280 --> 0:20:23.160 I'm looking for this address, he apparently regaled the cop 0:20:23.240 --> 0:20:26.440 with the entire story of the call and then the 0:20:26.520 --> 0:20:29.680 train ride, and then the difficulty he's been asking people 0:20:29.720 --> 0:20:31.240 all the time, and oh, do you know where this 0:20:31.320 --> 0:20:33.280 address is? Finally, you know, at the end of that, 0:20:33.920 --> 0:20:36.760 when the cops said, no, that place doesn't exist. I 0:20:38.000 --> 0:20:40.160 got the feeling through some of the things that he's 0:20:40.240 --> 0:20:45.439 said and done before everything happened, and then as it 0:20:45.520 --> 0:20:49.120 was going on, he was just kind of an awkward guy. 0:20:49.160 --> 0:20:51.080 He was just one of those ones. I think he 0:20:51.160 --> 0:20:55.920 was and anxious and and didn't really know how to 0:20:55.960 --> 0:21:00.399 interact with people. That was my sense of him. Yeah, definitely. Um, 0:21:00.480 --> 0:21:03.280 so he was not satisfied with the copper saying no, 0:21:03.640 --> 0:21:06.320 that's not a thing. But he did ask the cop 0:21:07.280 --> 0:21:09.440 what time it was, and he asked it in kind 0:21:09.440 --> 0:21:12.000 of a strange way apparently, and he said, it's not 0:21:12.080 --> 0:21:15.439 eight o'clock yet, is it? And the cops said no, 0:21:15.840 --> 0:21:17.679 So he checked the time and he said no, it's 0:21:17.680 --> 0:21:20.520 seven forty five. And Wallace looked at his watch and 0:21:20.520 --> 0:21:22.800 he said, oh, yeah, at seven forty five. And again 0:21:22.840 --> 0:21:26.399 people think that's suspicious, which I don't think so, but okay, well, 0:21:26.400 --> 0:21:29.520 fine whatever. He was still not satisfied, so he walked 0:21:29.720 --> 0:21:33.960 over to a local newsstand and they had directories in 0:21:34.000 --> 0:21:37.119 the news stand apparently, so he looked through the directory. 0:21:37.720 --> 0:21:42.360 Still the address didn't exist. So finally he's had enough. 0:21:42.400 --> 0:21:45.480 At this point he would have been really late, or 0:21:46.240 --> 0:21:50.240 as some people claim, he'd made enough stink to have 0:21:50.320 --> 0:21:52.600 a good albi. Well, and he also made a stink 0:21:52.680 --> 0:21:59.600 with the person at the Yeah again it was saying 0:22:00.400 --> 0:22:05.840 where this address is a distinct interaction and again you know, 0:22:05.880 --> 0:22:07.880 he asked her, he said, he looked up and he said, 0:22:07.920 --> 0:22:09.760 you know what I'm looking for and she said no, 0:22:10.680 --> 0:22:12.320 And he told her the address and she said no, 0:22:12.400 --> 0:22:14.119 that doesn't exist. And he said, okay, fine, I'm just 0:22:14.320 --> 0:22:17.200 I'm gonna go home. Then fine, and he got home. 0:22:17.720 --> 0:22:19.800 I guess it seems like he searched for about forty 0:22:19.880 --> 0:22:23.640 five minutes all all told. He got off the trammet 0:22:24.040 --> 0:22:30.800 seven fifteen, left probably about eight, got home. I guess 0:22:30.880 --> 0:22:33.720 around you know, I think that that trip takes about 0:22:33.760 --> 0:22:37.480 forty five minutes. I think my my math is good. 0:22:37.520 --> 0:22:40.120 It's half an hour, half an hour. But then again 0:22:40.119 --> 0:22:44.640 he's got to wait for stupid thing is there when 0:22:44.640 --> 0:22:48.200