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Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways is not brought to you by unicorns on unicycles. Instead,

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Speaker 1: it's supported by the generous donations of our listeners on Patreon.

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Speaker 1: Visit patreon dot com slash thinking sideways to learn more

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Speaker 1: and thanks Thinking Sideways. I don't understand you never know

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Speaker 1: stories of things we simply don't know the answer too.

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Speaker 1: Hey guys, welcome to another episode of Thinking Sideways the podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm Devin, joined us always by Steve, Joe and somebody

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Speaker 1: else apparently. Yeah, that's true. Here today, we're gonna talk

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Speaker 1: about a mystery, a pretty big mystery actually, kind of

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Speaker 1: one that's touted as one of the biggest unsolved mysteries.

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Speaker 1: This is one of those ones that you'll here referred

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Speaker 1: to on the lists on the internet of locker room

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Speaker 1: mysteries kind of style where it's the perfect perfect mystery. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's always ranked up in there. It is, and I

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Speaker 1: have to say it's it's a puzzler for sure, But

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Speaker 1: for as big a mystery it is, there's not it's

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Speaker 1: not big. Yeah, well you know, but still people have

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Speaker 1: been chewing over for a long time. A lot of

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Speaker 1: famous people like Raymond Chandler, for example, says it's his

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Speaker 1: favorite mystery of all time, or said it was like

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Speaker 1: he's dead, but he might still say mystery. Yet he

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Speaker 1: didn't have any knows the answer now and find out Yeah, okay,

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Speaker 1: so he was ready, Yeah, okay. In the evening of Monday,

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Speaker 1: January of nine one, sometime between sixty five and five pm,

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Speaker 1: Julia Wallace was beaten to death brutally. Her husband, William

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Speaker 1: Herbert Wallace seemed a really likely suspect and was arrested, tried,

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Speaker 1: and convicted. So what's the mystery. Well, uh, it turns

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Speaker 1: out the evidence was really really lacking in the case

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Speaker 1: against Mr Wallace, pretty so shoddy in fact, that the

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Speaker 1: Criminal Court of Appeals officially pardoned him and declared he

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Speaker 1: was innocent and totally said nope, he's not guilty at all.

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Speaker 1: He's free to go. And nobody knows who did this crime.

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Speaker 1: He knows who murdered Julia Wallace. There's a few suspects,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, it's interesting. When he was tried, I think

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Speaker 1: his demeanor kind of did him and he was kind

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Speaker 1: of another one of those those Bramber cases. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: he was apparently not liked by the jury because the

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Speaker 1: judge when when he was instructing the jury all but

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Speaker 1: told them they had to let him off. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: they convicted him anyway because the evidence was just so weak. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and we'll talk more about that. Yeah, was actually kind

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Speaker 1: of non existent. Yeah yeah, yeah. Yeah. So so let's

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Speaker 1: tell the story. Let's tell the story first, okay, okay,

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Speaker 1: And I want to just introduce you to the two

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Speaker 1: main characters. I guess the first character would be one

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Speaker 1: Mrs Wallace. Her maiden name was Dennis. She was Julia Dennis.

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Speaker 1: Originally she married Mr Wallace in March of nineteen fourteen.

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Speaker 1: She was significantly older than Mr Wallace. I think it

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Speaker 1: was seventeen years according to the dates I could find

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Speaker 1: on the wiki. There's a lot of contention over that

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Speaker 1: because for a long time people said that they were

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Speaker 1: around the same age. Everybody thought that they were they

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Speaker 1: were definitely contemporaries. And then I think somebody was able

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Speaker 1: to find her original birth certificate was in the last

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Speaker 1: decade or two. Yeah, I think so too, um, which

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Speaker 1: which said that she was seventeen years older than him.

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Speaker 1: So she was fifty three when they were married and

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Speaker 1: he was thirty six, which is quite reverse. It's a

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Speaker 1: reversal of roles for the time, but it's also still

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Speaker 1: that's still a big gap. But it used to be

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Speaker 1: the old man would marry the younger woman. Days, some

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Speaker 1: people kind of point to that as maybe something that

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Speaker 1: had to do with the murder. I think that, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think it's really silly, but I've seen that tossed around,

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Speaker 1: so uh, just to go ahead and throw that out. Actually,

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Speaker 1: I think that her age might have had if you

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Speaker 1: if you didn't need to killer, her age might have

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Speaker 1: had something to do with it. You want to hear

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Speaker 1: about it now? No, No, I don't know what could

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Speaker 1: you talk about that later. Julia was originally the daughter

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Speaker 1: of a quote ruined alcoholic farmer unquote, and there's really

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Speaker 1: like nothing about her except for that she played the

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Speaker 1: piano quite well. I think she was an accomplished pianist,

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Speaker 1: is how they describe her. And she doesn't even have

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Speaker 1: her own Wikipedia page, just bite being the victim of

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Speaker 1: this crime. No, I mean that's it's interesting that there's

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Speaker 1: I think there's a lot to be said about a victim.

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Speaker 1: I think that the victim really informs the crime a

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Speaker 1: lot of times. So I am sad that there's not

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Speaker 1: more information about her out there because I think it

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Speaker 1: just seems like we would be able to know more

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Speaker 1: about the crime maybe or everybody focused on her husband.

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Speaker 1: Details of her were just left behind, and that maybe

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Speaker 1: why we won't ever be able to solve it, because

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Speaker 1: there may be things about her that we just don't

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Speaker 1: have access to anywhere. Absolutely, I was able to find

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Speaker 1: some quote some people, some people about her. She was

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Speaker 1: described as meek and kind of uninteresting, and yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: there was one person who was looking in on them

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Speaker 1: for about three weeks in her name was Florence Mary Wilson,

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Speaker 1: and William Wallace had about a pneumonia and so this

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Speaker 1: this person was basically, you know, looking after them, and

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Speaker 1: she said that she says she thought Julie was a

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Speaker 1: poorhousekeeper who basically laid around and did nothing, and she

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Speaker 1: said she had no enthusiasm for anything. And she said

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Speaker 1: she didn't really think that they were a happy couple. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and so there's a there's a little bit of insight.

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Speaker 1: Of course, you know, that's a small window. It doesn't

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Speaker 1: necessarily mean she was always that way. But there were

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Speaker 1: other people also who said that they didn't really think

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Speaker 1: it was a happy marriage. Yeah, it's interesting. They people

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Speaker 1: didn't seem to think it was a happy marriage. But

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Speaker 1: they lived in this kind of townhouse row house situation

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Speaker 1: that's pretty common in London Liverpool, I guess. But they

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Speaker 1: so they shared walls with their next door neighbors, and

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Speaker 1: their neighbors said they never heard them raised voices or

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Speaker 1: really talking at all, which may have been a sign.

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Speaker 1: I guess that they didn't talk that much, but it

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Speaker 1: could be they had their own but they didn't. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, there's there's definitely loudly. There's two different ways

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Speaker 1: to go about hating each other, and we've seen and

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Speaker 1: really it's people with their relationship they or yell at

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Speaker 1: each other, were they say nothing. So it maybe that

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Speaker 1: that's why nobody heard anything. They just did their own

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Speaker 1: thing and ignored each other. So let's talk a little

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Speaker 1: bit about Wallace. Mr Wallace. We're just gonna call We're

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Speaker 1: going to refer to him as Wallace through the rest

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Speaker 1: of this thing, because apparently he's the only one that

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Speaker 1: really matters. And then we'll call Julia Wallace Julia Okay.

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Speaker 1: Wallace was born in eighteen seventy eight, and he left

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Speaker 1: school at fourteen when he started to train to be

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Speaker 1: a Draper's assistant. He got a job with the company

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Speaker 1: that outfitted Her Majesty's Armed Forces and the Colonial, Indian

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Speaker 1: and Foreign Services in Manchester. He spent five years with

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Speaker 1: the company. Company then transferred to Calcutta, India, then Shanghai

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Speaker 1: two years after that with the same company. His youngest

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Speaker 1: brother lived in Shanghai, so there was a familial connection.

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Speaker 1: He had a bum kidney, so he had to return

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Speaker 1: to England in nineteen oh seven. He didn't want to

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Speaker 1: have it cut out in Shanghai. Yeah, for some reason

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Speaker 1: in England. Yeah, he decided to come back to England,

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Speaker 1: so we did actually have the operation he had to

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Speaker 1: cut out. And then there's about a four year gap

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Speaker 1: in between there until he became an election agent in

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Speaker 1: nineteen eleven where he met Julia and then they got

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Speaker 1: married in nineteen fourteen, as we said, and then they

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Speaker 1: moved to Liverpool in nineteen fifteen because he had lost

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Speaker 1: his job. And yeah, it was because it was it

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Speaker 1: wasn't didn't you lose his job because the position of

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Speaker 1: elections was just basically totally eliminated in that the reason

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Speaker 1: there was some Crown rule that eliminated all of the

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Speaker 1: work that he was doing. Yeah, yeah, I was totally eliminated.

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Speaker 1: So he lost his job and he called his dad

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Speaker 1: and was like, Dad, I need a job, and he

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Speaker 1: his father helped him get a job with the Prudential

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Speaker 1: Insurance Company as a collections agent. And the Prudential is

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Speaker 1: an insurance life insurance company by and large, and they're

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Speaker 1: based in Liverpool. So yeah, the couple is described as meek.

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Speaker 1: Wallace had an unusually curious brain for the time I gather,

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Speaker 1: and that I guess it wasn't typical for a person,

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Speaker 1: particularly a man, but a person to take interest in

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Speaker 1: kind of a wide variety of topics, but Wallace did.

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Speaker 1: He supplemented his time and income by lecturing in chemist

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Speaker 1: He had an interest in botany. He was a violinist,

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Speaker 1: He was an amateur electrician, He had a lab electric

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Speaker 1: with electricity at home. And he loved chess. And he

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Speaker 1: was in fact a member of the Liverpool Central Chess Club.

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Speaker 1: Not to be confused with the Liverpool Chess Club or

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Speaker 1: the Central Chess Club, because those are two other things.

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Speaker 1: And this that's a very serious offense to be taken.

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Speaker 1: Apparently in my research I found I didn't know that

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Speaker 1: is this a Chess Club still in existence and they

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Speaker 1: still meet at the same place. No, No, the Central

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Speaker 1: Chess Club is still a thing, I think, but this

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Speaker 1: particular one, I'm pretty sure was eventually disbanded. Yeah, it

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Speaker 1: was pretty small when Wallace was going to it. It

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Speaker 1: was you know, they weren't very good chess players, and

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Speaker 1: it was a small chess club and then this whole

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Speaker 1: thing happened and it was kind of a third drink club. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So actually, uh, our story kind of begins at a

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Speaker 1: meeting of this club. So we want to just transition

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Speaker 1: into that. Yeah, definitely hustling into cool. So January nineteenth,

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Speaker 1: nineteen thirty one, Wallace was meant to be competing in

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Speaker 1: a chess championship over a number of months, and so

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Speaker 1: this was one match that he was supposed to be

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Speaker 1: competing in. His game was scheduled to start at seven

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Speaker 1: forty five pm, and at seven twenty pm, I believe

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Speaker 1: the Chess Club received a phone call from a R M. Quality.

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Speaker 1: He was looking for Wallace um and he left a

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Speaker 1: message with the club captain, whose name was Samuel Beattie.

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Speaker 1: The message was that Mr Wallace was requested to call

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Speaker 1: upon Mr Qualtro that's how he's going to say from

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Speaker 1: now on Qualtro. The next evening, at about seven thirty pm,

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Speaker 1: at twenty five men Love Gardens East regarding an insurance issue,

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Speaker 1: because one of Wallace's jobs was to sell insurance as

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Speaker 1: well as collect insurance, does and things like that, and

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Speaker 1: so it seemed that this gentleman had some insurance business

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Speaker 1: to carry out. I think that's one thing it took

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Speaker 1: me a while to figure out, and a lot of

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Speaker 1: people aren't familiar with this now, but in those days,

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Speaker 1: you had to walk around and collect payment from your customers.

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Speaker 1: So that's one of the big things he did, is

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Speaker 1: he walked around town all day and pick up money. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I got money from probably get him in good shape, probably. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So Mr Wallace obviously wasn't there at the time, and

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Speaker 1: the caller did ask Beatie is Mr Wallace expected to

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Speaker 1: be there tonight? And he said, oh, I don't know

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Speaker 1: if I can expect him or not, because it turns

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Speaker 1: out he was fairly delinquent in his attendance. I thought

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Speaker 1: it was they said once a fortnight, so once every

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Speaker 1: two weeks, fourteen fourteen days. So he didn't know. Beati

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Speaker 1: didn't know if Wallace was going to show up or not.

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Speaker 1: He said he if he was going to be there,

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Speaker 1: he'd be there soon and he'd relay the message. While

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Speaker 1: said that he had never heard of Caltra, and he

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Speaker 1: also hadn't heard of Men Love, Men Loves Garden, Men

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Speaker 1: Love Gardens East, and he and a member of a

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Speaker 1: few other members of the chess club discussed it, and

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Speaker 1: he just I think he said, well, I've got a

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Speaker 1: Scotch tongue in my brain or in my head or

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Speaker 1: something like that, a very odd meaning that he would

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Speaker 1: find it. They all figured it was just off Men

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Speaker 1: Love Avenue somewhere and that'd be that, and that that's

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Speaker 1: the way it was. Because I did I did some

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Speaker 1: reading on this because I didn't understand why this guy

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Speaker 1: would just go trooping across town not knowing where he

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Speaker 1: was going. That would freak me out. But it just

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Speaker 1: turns out, you, okay, well, I know this has got

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Speaker 1: to be off of that, so I'm just gonna walk

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Speaker 1: down it until I find it. Yeah, and they, and

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Speaker 1: you know, one of the guys at the club said, well,

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Speaker 1: I know Men Love Gardens North or something, you know.

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Speaker 1: So I think they just all thought, well, it must

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Speaker 1: be there somewhere. There's a north south and west east. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So despite knowing really anything about this, it just being

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Speaker 1: kind of a blind call, Wallace decides to keep the appointment.

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Speaker 1: So the next day on he arrives home from work

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Speaker 1: around six pm, and then sometime between six thirty and

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Speaker 1: sixty five, the milk boy stopped to pick up his money,

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Speaker 1: which he got from Julia. He said, I got it

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Speaker 1: from Julia. There's been some speculation that it was Wallace

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Speaker 1: and Drag but I'm sure it wasn't. It was definitely Julia.

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Speaker 1: And then I don't know how the milk boy would

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Speaker 1: have known what time it was. He said this other

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Speaker 1: time when a church clock and there was either right

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Speaker 1: before or right after, and there was one. Yeah, there's

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Speaker 1: a there's a church a few walks away that's got

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Speaker 1: three clocks on its on it, so he would have known,

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Speaker 1: so we can presume his time is about correct. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if anybody checked at the police checked

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Speaker 1: the church to see if the clocks were correct. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that would have something to check on the we're running

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Speaker 1: on daylight savings something like that. That would be too bad.

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Speaker 1: The Liverpool Police in this case that they the locals

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Speaker 1: called them the jiggery Pokey. Yeah. Yeah, they didn't have

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Speaker 1: the best reputation. Um. I think the Milk boys saw

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Speaker 1: Wallace there too. I'm not sure, but I got on

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Speaker 1: Google Maps. I pulled the Joe, got on Google Maps

249
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Speaker 1: and map directions from Wallaces the Wallaces rented flat to

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Speaker 1: men Love Gardens West, because I that's a natural address

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Speaker 1: and on today's transit it would take no less than

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Speaker 1: thirty seven minutes. And according to the train schedules at

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Speaker 1: the time, which I actually looked up, he would have

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Speaker 1: had to have been on the tram at sixty nine

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Speaker 1: pm for the whole timeline to make sense. And it's

256
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Speaker 1: verified that he's coming off of that tram at exactly

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Speaker 1: the right time. So we can assume, I think pretty

258
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Speaker 1: reasonably that he was definitely on the tram at six

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Speaker 1: pm that night. Yeah, and how he's done the conversations

260
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Speaker 1: that directly followed that, Yeah, absolutely. And how far was

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Speaker 1: the tram stop from his house? Not very far, but

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Speaker 1: it's a bit of a walk, maybe five minutes, not

263
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Speaker 1: anything now, Okay, hang on, So I remember something about

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Speaker 1: in their awesome investigations police having a young fit officer

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Speaker 1: played the part of Wallace, and I remember there was

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Speaker 1: discussions of him running, and so I was under the

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Speaker 1: impression that meant that he was running from the house

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Speaker 1: to the tram stop, which made me think the tramp

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Speaker 1: shop was farther the two mile running things, okay, and

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Speaker 1: that he ran to get there at seven oh six

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Speaker 1: to make this transfer. I don't remember, okay. So the

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Speaker 1: two miles thing is that he made a transfer to

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Speaker 1: a different tram and had an interaction with the conductor

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Speaker 1: of that tram, and that transfer spot was two miles away.

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Speaker 1: So I presumed that they were trying to see if

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Speaker 1: anybody fit could run that two miles in the allotted

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Speaker 1: time that that they would have needed and bypassed that

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Speaker 1: first train bad Kidney had recently, Yeah, I think. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: He was a heavy smoker too, wasn't Heah. Yeah, Actually,

280
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Speaker 1: it's absurd to assume that he could have kept that

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Speaker 1: page well and then nobody would have noticed this guy running,

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Speaker 1: you know, breakneck page right, or or that the conversation

283
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Speaker 1: he would have had with the conductor, the conductor wouldn't

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Speaker 1: have said, oh and he was super breathless by the way, sweating. Yeah. Actually,

285
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Speaker 1: the police actually didn't just do one detective running. They

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Speaker 1: sent out a hole like a half a dozen teams

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Speaker 1: at various times to try different just to see yeah,

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Speaker 1: which is only probably the most thorough job they did

289
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Speaker 1: on any part of it. But no, I think that's

290
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Speaker 1: what you're talking about. The two miles that you're thinking of.

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Speaker 1: I think the tram stop and I'm sorry to anybody

292
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Speaker 1: who's going to call us out on that. I don't

293
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Speaker 1: actually know, but I think it was a five minute

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Speaker 1: walk or something. It wasn't that far, Yeah, Because the

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Speaker 1: two miles that you are talking about is the transfer

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Speaker 1: he made two miles away from his home for one

297
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Speaker 1: tram to the other like their street cars, right, you

298
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Speaker 1: guys know what trams are, okay. And that was at

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Speaker 1: seven oh six pm, which you know was right on

300
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Speaker 1: schedule with him being on the tram right before at

301
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Speaker 1: the sixtine mark, and he had a conversation with the

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Speaker 1: conductor and he he asked him directions to men Love

303
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Speaker 1: Gardens East and was told to transfer trams again at

304
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Speaker 1: Penny Lane and he spent most of that ten minute

305
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Speaker 1: ride pestering the driver to not forget to call out

306
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Speaker 1: Penny Lane. And a lot of people think that's suspicious.

307
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Speaker 1: I think it's I think it's just like a nerve.

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Speaker 1: I would. I've done stuff like that before, not like

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Speaker 1: the entire time, because I've then gotten really awkward and

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Speaker 1: thought like, oh, I'm annoying this person. But if I

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Speaker 1: don't know where I'm going, I get really anxious, And

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Speaker 1: especially if I were trying to make a meeting and

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Speaker 1: I really didn't know where I was going and was

314
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Speaker 1: maybe running a little late. By my own sense, I

315
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Speaker 1: I definitely can see the like, okay, but don't forget

316
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Speaker 1: to call, Like, don't forget to do it. Don't have

317
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Speaker 1: we missed it. I really don't know where I am

318
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Speaker 1: right now, Like everything was lit up and easy to see.

319
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Speaker 1: It's January, it's you know, it's December, and it's dark

320
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Speaker 1: at you know, four o'clock right now, so it's it's

321
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Speaker 1: dark out. And also you know, he can't pull your

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Speaker 1: map or phone out of your back pocket. You have

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Speaker 1: no idea what's going on. Wasn't as easy back in

324
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Speaker 1: those days. Yeah, So I just I don't think it's

325
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Speaker 1: as suspicious as most people think, but some people do

326
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Speaker 1: think it's really suspicious. Yeah, A lot of people feel

327
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Speaker 1: that he tried to call people's attention to himself repeatedly.

328
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Speaker 1: There there's a lot of that in this story though,

329
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Speaker 1: But there's a lot of I gotta admit. I'll just

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Speaker 1: tell you right now. There's several things that I'm just

331
00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:45,680
Speaker 1: going to point out with one word, which is claim. Yea,

332
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Speaker 1: they claim. They make a lot of claims about certain

333
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Speaker 1: things that he did them. So the conductor, of course

334
00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:58,320
Speaker 1: did not forget to st Yeah, he was like, oh

335
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Speaker 1: my god, get off now. He's like, this is your stop,

336
00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:04,480
Speaker 1: get off, uh, And Wallace made the connection no problem.

337
00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:08,320
Speaker 1: He got on the next tram and he asked the

338
00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:12,160
Speaker 1: conductor promptly, Hey, where do I get off for men

339
00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:15,320
Speaker 1: Love Gardens East. The conductor said, you get off at

340
00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:19,199
Speaker 1: men Love Avenue and walk and probably was told to

341
00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:24,440
Speaker 1: just saw it off and look for it, because I guess, yeah,

342
00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:26,199
Speaker 1: just get off here. And it was only like a

343
00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:29,560
Speaker 1: six hundred foot ride or something like that. It was

344
00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:32,639
Speaker 1: stupid short, but I think all the conductors were just like,

345
00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:35,200
Speaker 1: you do this. I don't know, you just do this thing.

346
00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:37,760
Speaker 1: But he did. He got off at the avenue and

347
00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:41,040
Speaker 1: started to search for men Love Gardens East. There was

348
00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:45,199
Speaker 1: a men Love Gardens North, South and West but not east.

349
00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:49,560
Speaker 1: Apparently he was really determined, so he asked a number

350
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Speaker 1: of passers by, you know, where is the street? None

351
00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:56,280
Speaker 1: of them had ever heard of men Love Gardens East.

352
00:19:57,160 --> 00:20:01,240
Speaker 1: He went to men Love Gardens West to see if

353
00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:03,960
Speaker 1: they knew anything about it. They said, no, we've never

354
00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:06,960
Speaker 1: heard of anybody, and we didn't make a call. Go away.

355
00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:10,320
Speaker 1: Wallace did what you're meant to do and found a

356
00:20:10,359 --> 00:20:15,000
Speaker 1: local beat cop next and okay, people, there's the claim.

357
00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:17,359
Speaker 1: And I think the cops said this, so I'm willing

358
00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:20,239
Speaker 1: to say that this happened. But instead of just saying, oh,

359
00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:23,160
Speaker 1: I'm looking for this address, he apparently regaled the cop

360
00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:26,440
Speaker 1: with the entire story of the call and then the

361
00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:29,680
Speaker 1: train ride, and then the difficulty he's been asking people

362
00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:31,240
Speaker 1: all the time, and oh, do you know where this

363
00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:33,280
Speaker 1: address is? Finally, you know, at the end of that,

364
00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:36,760
Speaker 1: when the cops said, no, that place doesn't exist. I

365
00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:40,160
Speaker 1: got the feeling through some of the things that he's

366
00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:45,439
Speaker 1: said and done before everything happened, and then as it

367
00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:49,120
Speaker 1: was going on, he was just kind of an awkward guy.

368
00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:51,080
Speaker 1: He was just one of those ones. I think he

369
00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:55,920
Speaker 1: was and anxious and and didn't really know how to

370
00:20:55,960 --> 00:21:00,399
Speaker 1: interact with people. That was my sense of him. Yeah, definitely. Um,

371
00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:03,280
Speaker 1: so he was not satisfied with the copper saying no,

372
00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:06,320
Speaker 1: that's not a thing. But he did ask the cop

373
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Speaker 1: what time it was, and he asked it in kind

374
00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:12,000
Speaker 1: of a strange way apparently, and he said, it's not

375
00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:15,439
Speaker 1: eight o'clock yet, is it? And the cops said no,

376
00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:17,679
Speaker 1: So he checked the time and he said no, it's

377
00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:20,520
Speaker 1: seven forty five. And Wallace looked at his watch and

378
00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:22,800
Speaker 1: he said, oh, yeah, at seven forty five. And again

379
00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:26,399
Speaker 1: people think that's suspicious, which I don't think so, but okay, well,

380
00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:29,520
Speaker 1: fine whatever. He was still not satisfied, so he walked

381
00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:33,960
Speaker 1: over to a local newsstand and they had directories in

382
00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:37,119
Speaker 1: the news stand apparently, so he looked through the directory.

383
00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:42,360
Speaker 1: Still the address didn't exist. So finally he's had enough.

384
00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:45,480
Speaker 1: At this point he would have been really late, or

385
00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:50,240
Speaker 1: as some people claim, he'd made enough stink to have

386
00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:52,600
Speaker 1: a good albi. Well, and he also made a stink

387
00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:59,600
Speaker 1: with the person at the Yeah again it was saying

388
00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:05,840
Speaker 1: where this address is a distinct interaction and again you know,

389
00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:07,880
Speaker 1: he asked her, he said, he looked up and he said,

390
00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:09,760
Speaker 1: you know what I'm looking for and she said no,

391
00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:12,320
Speaker 1: And he told her the address and she said no,

392
00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:14,119
Speaker 1: that doesn't exist. And he said, okay, fine, I'm just

393
00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:17,200
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go home. Then fine, and he got home.

394
00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:19,800
Speaker 1: I guess it seems like he searched for about forty

395
00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:23,640
Speaker 1: five minutes all all told. He got off the trammet

396
00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:30,800
Speaker 1: seven fifteen, left probably about eight, got home. I guess

397
00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:33,720
Speaker 1: around you know, I think that that trip takes about

398
00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:37,480
Speaker 1: forty five minutes. I think my my math is good.

399
00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:40,120
Speaker 1: It's half an hour, half an hour. But then again

400
00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:44,640
Speaker 1: he's got to wait for stupid thing is there when

401
00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:48,200
Speaker 1: you're there? Right? I mean maybe it is, but rarely, rarely. Yeah,

402
00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:50,520
Speaker 1: but he based Long story short, you got home about

403
00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:54,160
Speaker 1: eight thirty or eight thirties. Probably the earliest he could

404
00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:58,080
Speaker 1: have gotten home reasonably etive is probably when he got home.

405
00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:00,920
Speaker 1: But again, the next time he's seen in his forty five,

406
00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:04,040
Speaker 1: he's standing outside of his back door and his neighbors,

407
00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:07,159
Speaker 1: the Johnston's, are just leaving. They encounter him in the

408
00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:10,880
Speaker 1: back alleyway and he looks, God, what's the quote, worried

409
00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:13,920
Speaker 1: and confused, worried and confused, thank you? He looks worried

410
00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:16,800
Speaker 1: and confused, and they say, okay, Mr Allis, what's up?

411
00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:20,040
Speaker 1: And he says, well, my my keys aren't working. McKy

412
00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:22,080
Speaker 1: in the front or the back door, they're not working.

413
00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:23,520
Speaker 1: And they said, well, we you know, we have a

414
00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:25,280
Speaker 1: spare key to your house. Do you want us to

415
00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:29,240
Speaker 1: try our key? And he said, oh, I don't. I've

416
00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:31,199
Speaker 1: never heard what he said, so I just assume he

417
00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:33,040
Speaker 1: just kind of mumbled, and then he tried his back

418
00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:37,920
Speaker 1: door key again and miraculously at open uh. And they

419
00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:40,359
Speaker 1: waited around because they were good neighbors. They thought, Okay,

420
00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:43,760
Speaker 1: he seems confused and worried and weird, and we'll just

421
00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:45,600
Speaker 1: wait till he gives us the all clear. So they

422
00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:48,360
Speaker 1: kind of waited around, and he went upstairs and he

423
00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:51,160
Speaker 1: lit the gas in the parlor, and then he came

424
00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:55,000
Speaker 1: back down and just very calmly said, uh, come and

425
00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:58,320
Speaker 1: see she's been killed. Strange. Strange. I think he was

426
00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:00,960
Speaker 1: in shock, like I think he is in chocked, because

427
00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:03,960
Speaker 1: I would be in shock if I walked into this. Absolutely,

428
00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:06,160
Speaker 1: But can we stop for a second and talk about

429
00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:10,840
Speaker 1: the door. So he tried, if I understood correctly, and

430
00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:13,080
Speaker 1: I just want to make sure I understand this. He

431
00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:15,399
Speaker 1: tried the front door and his key wouldn't work or

432
00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:17,560
Speaker 1: the door wouldn't unlock. And then he went to the

433
00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:20,440
Speaker 1: back door and he couldn't get it to unlock with

434
00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:23,760
Speaker 1: his key, and then he tried it again in front

435
00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:27,200
Speaker 1: of the Johnstones and that's when it opened. Yes, correct,

436
00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:29,479
Speaker 1: the back door open, the back door, so they were

437
00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:32,560
Speaker 1: they were apparently the dead or the latch events had

438
00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:35,720
Speaker 1: been shut on the inside. Is that what it was?

439
00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:38,280
Speaker 1: Because I was thinking, well, maybe there was somebody like

440
00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:41,440
Speaker 1: was there was the front door unlocked when they went

441
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:44,760
Speaker 1: to look at it later, because it makes me wonder, Hey,

442
00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:47,280
Speaker 1: you can't maybe see in and so he's trying his

443
00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:50,240
Speaker 1: key and somebody's holding the lock. No, But you know

444
00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:53,159
Speaker 1: what I didn't actually I just thought of is maybe

445
00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:55,480
Speaker 1: the front door was unlocked when he arrived and he

446
00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:59,359
Speaker 1: accidentally locked it. It seems unlikely, but I guess it

447
00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:03,120
Speaker 1: seems like a I just got home and impeeved kind

448
00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:06,200
Speaker 1: of moved. But it's interesting because you know, if you

449
00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:08,800
Speaker 1: if he actually was telling the truth and say the

450
00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:10,720
Speaker 1: bolt had been shot from the inside on both the

451
00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:14,080
Speaker 1: front and the rear, then he comes home, that if

452
00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:15,879
Speaker 1: he is totally telling the truth and he wasn't just

453
00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:18,239
Speaker 1: confused not using his key. Correct, mean that must mean

454
00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:21,280
Speaker 1: the murderer was inside exactly where I was going. Yeah,

455
00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:23,840
Speaker 1: so he's he's been he's been rattling the front door.

456
00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:26,520
Speaker 1: And then the murderer like boogies out the back door,

457
00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:29,159
Speaker 1: and of course he can't shoot the bolt this time around.

458
00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:32,000
Speaker 1: He pulls the door shut behind him and sneaks out

459
00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:34,120
Speaker 1: down the alley. Oh that he would have tried the

460
00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:37,800
Speaker 1: back door first, and that didn't work. So he tried

461
00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:40,240
Speaker 1: the front door and that didn't work. So he came

462
00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:44,080
Speaker 1: back around, at which point they encountered him kind of

463
00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:46,679
Speaker 1: walking back to try the back door again. Is that

464
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:50,679
Speaker 1: what you're saying? Yeah? Yeah, and that he said, Mike,

465
00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:52,640
Speaker 1: he's not working, and they said okay, and he tried

466
00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:55,040
Speaker 1: it again and the bolt wasn't locked. Is that what

467
00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:57,760
Speaker 1: you're saying. Yeah, Yeah, So the door was locked, but

468
00:25:57,760 --> 00:25:59,840
Speaker 1: the bolt was not had not been shot from the inside.

469
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:03,040
Speaker 1: Interesting because that's the only way this, this whole I

470
00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:06,159
Speaker 1: can't get my key to work thing makes sense to me,

471
00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:11,160
Speaker 1: is if somebody else was inside, you know, manually operating

472
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:14,160
Speaker 1: a lock that he couldn't have access to. That's true. Yeah,

473
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:16,199
Speaker 1: that's not a bad point, although that would mean the

474
00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:18,960
Speaker 1: murderer had to key to the house, not necessarily because

475
00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:21,479
Speaker 1: you don't use a key to lock your door from

476
00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:24,920
Speaker 1: the but the I guess it's he could have left

477
00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:27,280
Speaker 1: the door unlocked and that Mr Wallace, just out of habit,

478
00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:30,679
Speaker 1: tried to unlock it and it worked, right, That's what

479
00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:33,800
Speaker 1: I'm saying. Okay, that's fair, that's good. Yeah, I haven't

480
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:37,520
Speaker 1: thought about that. There's not a scrap of evidence to

481
00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:41,680
Speaker 1: support that, but well, that's that's the refrain of this

482
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:45,560
Speaker 1: entire case. Though there's not a scrap of evidence to

483
00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:49,480
Speaker 1: support that, but we're gonna say it anyway. So what

484
00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:52,320
Speaker 1: did Mr Wallace find? And I guess the Johnston's when

485
00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:57,879
Speaker 1: they Johnston's Johnstones, but john Stones Johnston's either way, they

486
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:00,639
Speaker 1: saw something they could never unsee. Yeah, uh, it was.

487
00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:03,560
Speaker 1: It was a really gruesome scene. In the parlor, Julia

488
00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:07,880
Speaker 1: had her head had been bashed in eleven times, her

489
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:12,000
Speaker 1: brain was exposed, and the blood splatter in some places

490
00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:15,600
Speaker 1: was seven ft up on the walls, which is pretty high.

491
00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:21,119
Speaker 1: What happens when he beatbody definitely would Yeah, and the Johnston's,

492
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:24,159
Speaker 1: as I mentioned, the walls were thin in between and

493
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:26,840
Speaker 1: I think the parlor wall. They shared a wall, and

494
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:28,280
Speaker 1: they had been home all night and they said they

495
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:31,800
Speaker 1: hadn't heard anything, which is kind of weird, Like one

496
00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:34,560
Speaker 1: would assume that you would at least scream a little

497
00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:37,760
Speaker 1: the first time that the first one catches you unar

498
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:44,520
Speaker 1: and rattles your little brain. Yeah, followed by several swift hits.

499
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:47,720
Speaker 1: You're out. There is one other explanation for them not

500
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:52,600
Speaker 1: hearing anything, and that is that they did it. I

501
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:55,760
Speaker 1: found her. I found somebody out there that claims we'll

502
00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:58,199
Speaker 1: talk about that in theories because it's it's actually not

503
00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:01,280
Speaker 1: the worst theory out there. Um. So yeah, as we

504
00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:04,639
Speaker 1: were talking about, uh, we kind of I guess shot

505
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:07,439
Speaker 1: our load a little early. The big whole mystery on

506
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:10,720
Speaker 1: this thing is that all of the windows and doors

507
00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:15,240
Speaker 1: were locked ostensibly when when Mr Wallace arrived. So it's

508
00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:17,080
Speaker 1: you know, it's one of those locker room mysteries where

509
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:21,720
Speaker 1: you're just like, how how did the murderer get out? Well,

510
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:24,720
Speaker 1: they weren't. They weren't dead bolted though, were they? I don't,

511
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:28,840
Speaker 1: I don't know. I see that's the thing that yeah,

512
00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:30,640
Speaker 1: I mean, because you can always pull the door shut

513
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:34,080
Speaker 1: behind you, Yeah, although it's nineteen thirty one, so I

514
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:37,560
Speaker 1: don't know. Yeah, I don't think they were. I think

515
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:40,080
Speaker 1: they were mostly dead bault locks at that point. Well

516
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:44,040
Speaker 1: I know, okay, my experience in Britain with locks has

517
00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:46,040
Speaker 1: never been good because I get locked out all the

518
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:49,680
Speaker 1: time when I'm over there because they don't believe indoor handles.

519
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:54,360
Speaker 1: It's all keys, and they auto locked behind you, which

520
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:56,760
Speaker 1: is why I'm wondering if, like Joe said, they just

521
00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:00,320
Speaker 1: auto locked automatically that was the standard way to do it. Yeah,

522
00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:03,000
Speaker 1: but I guess I don't know. I guess the frustrating

523
00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:06,120
Speaker 1: thing in that case then, right, is that? Like then

524
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:08,520
Speaker 1: why is that such a big mystery? Like if it's

525
00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:11,280
Speaker 1: so ubiquitous in this area, that doors which is locked

526
00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:14,560
Speaker 1: behind you, why is everybody saying and the doors were

527
00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:17,240
Speaker 1: locked like okay, cool, then the murderer left out the door.

528
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:21,040
Speaker 1: Why are there's so many claims about the things this

529
00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:24,880
Speaker 1: guy could do? Like that's that's right up there with Yeah,

530
00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:27,920
Speaker 1: although if it was the old fashioned kind, like the

531
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:29,880
Speaker 1: church key kinds, you know what kind of talking about,

532
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:31,800
Speaker 1: if it was one of those a lot of in

533
00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:33,640
Speaker 1: those days that a lot of the times people would

534
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:35,840
Speaker 1: leave their key on the in the lock on the inside,

535
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:39,560
Speaker 1: and that's why that's the way to block somebody from

536
00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:43,000
Speaker 1: the outside picking your lock, and so your key is

537
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:45,400
Speaker 1: blocking it. And that was very common in those days.

538
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:47,400
Speaker 1: So there might have just been a key in one

539
00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 1: of the front of the rear door is just there.

540
00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:51,560
Speaker 1: He just takes the key out, steps outside, pulls it

541
00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:54,480
Speaker 1: shut and takes the key and locks the door, walks

542
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:57,080
Speaker 1: away and walks away. I'll cover with gore. Yeah. Well, yeah,

543
00:29:57,120 --> 00:30:00,680
Speaker 1: I'm super covered in blood because is that like this

544
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:05,360
Speaker 1: person would have been just wrenched in blood, coated in blood.

545
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:08,800
Speaker 1: There wasn't really anything missing. Mr Wallace said that there

546
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:11,960
Speaker 1: were a couple of pounds maybe missing, and then they

547
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:16,440
Speaker 1: the only other thing that was missing were to fireplace instruments,

548
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:19,400
Speaker 1: a poker and a metal bar. I don't know what

549
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:21,680
Speaker 1: the metal bar. I could never determine what the bar was.

550
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:28,520
Speaker 1: Showed up that one finally, Yeah, did show up. So yeah,

551
00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:31,240
Speaker 1: the poker didn't show up, and actually the bar showed

552
00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:35,480
Speaker 1: up with no blood on it. Yeah. Years later it

553
00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:37,719
Speaker 1: was like in the back of the fireplace, it'd fallen

554
00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:40,640
Speaker 1: through a hole in the bottom or something. Yeah, And

555
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:43,440
Speaker 1: then there's the whole, the macintosh, the raincoat. Oh yeah,

556
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:46,200
Speaker 1: and then there was a partially burned Macintosh or a

557
00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:50,680
Speaker 1: raincoat underneath her body. It was supposedly his, it was

558
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:54,000
Speaker 1: it was his that there was no supposed it definitely

559
00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:58,080
Speaker 1: was his, But that doesn't mean that he was involved. Really,

560
00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:01,160
Speaker 1: I would have been by the door. Okay. See that's

561
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:04,200
Speaker 1: funny because I had heard contention that it might not

562
00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:08,560
Speaker 1: have been his, like it may have been somebody else's,

563
00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:11,720
Speaker 1: And they took his on the way out, So I

564
00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:14,800
Speaker 1: guess that's fair. I it matched his. I thought it

565
00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:18,640
Speaker 1: was his. I thought it was his too, But I'm

566
00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:21,800
Speaker 1: reading a lot. But the investigation into this is so

567
00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:24,520
Speaker 1: poor that I don't I guess. I can't say definitively

568
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:27,440
Speaker 1: that it was his. It looked like his, that's all

569
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:31,000
Speaker 1: I can say. They didn't. They also didn't know any

570
00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:33,880
Speaker 1: evidence or anything like that because it had been partially burnt.

571
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:37,080
Speaker 1: It had been partially burned. Yet, so can I ask?

572
00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:39,040
Speaker 1: I'm sorry? I know I do this to you all

573
00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:42,360
Speaker 1: the time. I have a question crime scene photo. I

574
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:45,200
Speaker 1: swear I've seen it, but I also thought it was

575
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:48,200
Speaker 1: a recreation. Yeah, so I have seen a lot of

576
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:51,800
Speaker 1: pictures that look like they might be crime scene photos.

577
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:55,880
Speaker 1: I think they're all re enact re enact recreation recreations

578
00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:58,880
Speaker 1: because I don't because there's not enough blood in any

579
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:01,840
Speaker 1: of them. Well, I saw a couple of photos and

580
00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:03,600
Speaker 1: I think they were the real thing. They were taken.

581
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:05,840
Speaker 1: They were taken either by police or by reporters on

582
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:10,080
Speaker 1: the night of Yeah, I saw those two, and I

583
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:14,320
Speaker 1: just didn't think that there was enough blood. Yeah, So

584
00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:15,840
Speaker 1: I don't know. It's kind of hard to tell. The

585
00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 1: kind of murky pictures. Yeah, I saw these in a book.

586
00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:23,080
Speaker 1: Guy who was John Gannon wrote a book called The

587
00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:24,959
Speaker 1: Killing of Julia Wallace. He did we're going to talk

588
00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:27,920
Speaker 1: about book. He's got a lot of pictures in there. Yeah,

589
00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:30,680
Speaker 1: but I don't know. I can't. I guess I can't

590
00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:33,720
Speaker 1: authenticate what the pictures, if they were real or not.

591
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:37,120
Speaker 1: Just again, because it doesn't seem like it looks like

592
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:40,840
Speaker 1: the crime scene was described to have been. But it's

593
00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 1: also possible that the description of the crime scene is inaccurate.

594
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:45,360
Speaker 1: What I was going to say is, that's the thing

595
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:49,560
Speaker 1: is that I saw something that talked about when Julia

596
00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:54,040
Speaker 1: was struck and she fell. I saw something I swear

597
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:56,760
Speaker 1: that said that the reason that the macintosh had caught

598
00:32:56,840 --> 00:33:00,760
Speaker 1: on fire was that she had fallen forward into a fireplace,

599
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:03,600
Speaker 1: so that that he had fallen forward into the fire.

600
00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:06,400
Speaker 1: The person wearing the macintosh had fallen forward into the

601
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:09,200
Speaker 1: fireplace and it had partially caught fire. Oh so they're

602
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:12,760
Speaker 1: saying this doesn't make any freaking sense weight and that

603
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:14,920
Speaker 1: it that it was that they put the fire out

604
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:19,000
Speaker 1: and then pushed it under her body. Oh so killer

605
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:23,520
Speaker 1: wearing said macintosh catches on fire, stops drops of rolls

606
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 1: and then rolls her up in it it underneath her.

607
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:31,560
Speaker 1: Was somebody to do that, though, I don't know. It

608
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:33,840
Speaker 1: doesn't make any sense, doesn't make any sense. It makes

609
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:37,000
Speaker 1: I think it makes more sense that that she died

610
00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:40,120
Speaker 1: on it. Yeah, it's it's entirely you know. One theory

611
00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:43,200
Speaker 1: about the macintosh is that it was indeed Wallace's macintosh.

612
00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:46,280
Speaker 1: She hadn't taken it with him, and he had probably

613
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:49,040
Speaker 1: hanging on a hook by the front door, and somebody

614
00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:51,600
Speaker 1: somebody called on her for whatever reason, rang the bell

615
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:54,360
Speaker 1: and she put that on against the cold or whatever,

616
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:58,040
Speaker 1: or maybe they and that she was actually wearing it

617
00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:00,160
Speaker 1: and not necessarily with her arms at the sleep was

618
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:02,880
Speaker 1: just straped over her shoulders. Maybe you know, who knows.

619
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:04,840
Speaker 1: Maybe she was in her pajamas and she was feeling

620
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:07,560
Speaker 1: modest or something for some reason or you know, whatever reason,

621
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:11,040
Speaker 1: probably the cold, and so I think that's probably what

622
00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:14,359
Speaker 1: it was. I agree. But fireplace, fireplace was on, you know,

623
00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:17,920
Speaker 1: I mean, you could say somebody came over for whatever

624
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:20,919
Speaker 1: reason to murder her, obviously, but it was it would

625
00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:23,960
Speaker 1: have been somebody she knew. Yeah, let's let's save this.

626
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:31,759
Speaker 1: So Um, Despite having a pretty solid alibi created or

627
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:36,400
Speaker 1: not um and a really severe lack of forensic evidence,

628
00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:40,320
Speaker 1: the cops arrested Wallace, as we said, and it was

629
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:42,840
Speaker 1: a couple of days later. Yeah, as we as we

630
00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:46,640
Speaker 1: talked about a little bit to this case. It's it's

631
00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:50,080
Speaker 1: another case of the jury just kind of not liken

632
00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:54,000
Speaker 1: the guy. The public they hated him, yeah, they did. Um.

633
00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:56,600
Speaker 1: He was definitely condemned in public for the rest of

634
00:34:56,640 --> 00:34:59,399
Speaker 1: his life. Yeah, he got constantly got hate mail. Yeah,

635
00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:03,360
Speaker 1: he did and stuff. He took the witness stand against

636
00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:08,279
Speaker 1: Earth in his defense, I guess, not against himself, but

637
00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:10,400
Speaker 1: he did kind of work against himself. Yeah, and he

638
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:14,480
Speaker 1: he appeared detached and cold. Um. And the jury did

639
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:18,000
Speaker 1: convict him. The trial lasted four days and the jury

640
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:20,840
Speaker 1: deliberated for less than an hour, and he was sentenced

641
00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:22,920
Speaker 1: to hang for the crime. But then in March of

642
00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:26,120
Speaker 1: nineteen thirty one, the Court of Appeals did overturn the ruling.

643
00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:29,080
Speaker 1: They just said there there just wasn't enough evidence to

644
00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:33,040
Speaker 1: have convicted Wallace and um, so he was innocent. He

645
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:37,480
Speaker 1: obviously found it hard to return to normal life in Liverpool,

646
00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:40,080
Speaker 1: so he moved to the country and then he died

647
00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:44,440
Speaker 1: in nineteen thirty three, just two years later, of kidney issue. No,

648
00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:46,280
Speaker 1: he didn't, he didn't move to the country right away

649
00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:48,840
Speaker 1: because I know he took he took a he tried

650
00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:53,200
Speaker 1: facing job with the insurance company, he tried to return,

651
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:56,360
Speaker 1: he moved. I think I think he lived in Liverpool

652
00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:59,719
Speaker 1: for six months or and then he moved to the country.

653
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:02,279
Speaker 1: But he was also he was pretty sick too. Yeah,

654
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:04,839
Speaker 1: he was getting progressively worse. Yeah, he was not one

655
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:08,279
Speaker 1: of those two was really in great healthy. So he

656
00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:10,359
Speaker 1: was fifty one at the time of the murder. Yeah,

657
00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:14,000
Speaker 1: seventeen year age difference means his wife would have been

658
00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:17,640
Speaker 1: sixty eight. I'm just I'm just thinking about Yeah, I mean,

659
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:21,280
Speaker 1: they both would have been a rather rather slow pair.

660
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:25,239
Speaker 1: And I can see her age at that time, of

661
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:28,919
Speaker 1: being sixty eight in the thirties is to me kind

662
00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:32,080
Speaker 1: of the equivalent of being ninety today is I mean,

663
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:34,480
Speaker 1: just because of the way that you live and the

664
00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:36,960
Speaker 1: harsh lifestyle. So I can see why she may have

665
00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:41,480
Speaker 1: been considered kind of lackluster and just old and tired

666
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:44,719
Speaker 1: and she couldn't dig it anymore. Well, yeah, I think

667
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:47,080
Speaker 1: that he didn't really have much in the way of motive,

668
00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:49,880
Speaker 1: except maybe he was just sick of her. But the

669
00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:51,399
Speaker 1: other thing about it was I was going to mention

670
00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:54,520
Speaker 1: her age as as a motivation for him, Like you said,

671
00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:56,399
Speaker 1: that was that that would have been back in those days,

672
00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:59,000
Speaker 1: the equivalent of eighty five or nine years old, and

673
00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:00,920
Speaker 1: he's starting to look at the US and thinking, you know,

674
00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:03,800
Speaker 1: I don't want to spend I don't want to spend

675
00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:07,759
Speaker 1: the rest of my life changing her diapers. You know,

676
00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:09,680
Speaker 1: I'm going to put her out to past year. That's

677
00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:11,680
Speaker 1: kind of the way he looked at it. That would

678
00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:14,880
Speaker 1: be a motivation, I guess. Yeah, maybe he was just

679
00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:17,360
Speaker 1: sick of her. Yeah, that's also possible. But there's some

680
00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:23,319
Speaker 1: quote actually gosh. The quote I think was that you

681
00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:29,919
Speaker 1: need no more motivation than being married. Yeah, yeah, which

682
00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:32,959
Speaker 1: I think is probably fair, I say to a newly

683
00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:37,439
Speaker 1: led Steve. Yeah I did, and matro side my list

684
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:40,200
Speaker 1: of words. Yeah, I'm now going to start using around

685
00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:42,839
Speaker 1: the house. Yeah, so that it's not actually yeah, she'll

686
00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:46,000
Speaker 1: appreciate it. Yes, absolutely, So we can. We can jump

687
00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:48,080
Speaker 1: into theories. But I just want to mention two or

688
00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:53,960
Speaker 1: three things. First. One big, really big thing is that

689
00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:56,120
Speaker 1: the police unit that came to investigate the murder was

690
00:37:56,200 --> 00:38:00,399
Speaker 1: really really really really subpar to say the least. But yeah,

691
00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:03,520
Speaker 1: the Liverpool Police, I'm sure they're highly professional today, but

692
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:05,560
Speaker 1: they had actually it was I think it was in

693
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:09,320
Speaker 1: nineteen nineteen there was a huge strike and they lost

694
00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:11,759
Speaker 1: more than half of their police force. It was a

695
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:14,880
Speaker 1: huge amount. Yeah, and so you know, I guess within

696
00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:18,160
Speaker 1: ten years essentially they had tried to replace everybody and

697
00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:20,440
Speaker 1: it was just it was not going very well. I

698
00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:24,440
Speaker 1: believe the term ring saw for the staff was underqualified. Yeah.

699
00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:28,160
Speaker 1: But okay, so the really fine whatever, they were unqualified.

700
00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:31,799
Speaker 1: The biggest blow to this case that happened was their

701
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:38,920
Speaker 1: forensic expert. I guess they His name was John McFall,

702
00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:44,560
Speaker 1: and he operated under the pretense that his instinct was enough. Um.

703
00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:48,839
Speaker 1: He didn't take notes, he didn't run tests. He observed

704
00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:53,400
Speaker 1: Julia's body and decided, based just on the rigor of

705
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:56,680
Speaker 1: her body, that she had to have been killed at

706
00:38:56,719 --> 00:38:59,400
Speaker 1: six pm, give or take an hour. He actually had

707
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:03,040
Speaker 1: originally said she died somewhere around eight o'clock or so,

708
00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:08,080
Speaker 1: and then wound back the clock on that to match

709
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:12,240
Speaker 1: up when they charged Wallace. Yeah, so there's a little

710
00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:15,880
Speaker 1: bit of that. That's that's hinky, that's hinky step number one. Yeah. Yeah,

711
00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:18,200
Speaker 1: the only test that was and that that was the

712
00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:19,719
Speaker 1: only test that was done on her at the time.

713
00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:24,760
Speaker 1: He didn't do body temperature, They didn't take any blood samples.

714
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:27,520
Speaker 1: They didn't take any they didn't collect any forensic evidence.

715
00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:30,480
Speaker 1: They didn't try and fingerprint or anything like that. Um,

716
00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:34,000
Speaker 1: they did I guess somehow, and I don't know how,

717
00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:38,200
Speaker 1: but I guess they were able to determine that nobody

718
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:41,719
Speaker 1: had cleaned themselves up at the house. There wasn't evidence

719
00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:45,520
Speaker 1: that somebody took a shower to clean. The drains were dry.

720
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:49,120
Speaker 1: The drains were drying, So okay, that was That was

721
00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:51,080
Speaker 1: good at least they did that, so we know that

722
00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:55,040
Speaker 1: whoever killed her would have been really, really bloody and

723
00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:57,840
Speaker 1: would have had to have probably left the house pretty bloody.

724
00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:02,959
Speaker 1: And that that fact alone completely to me blow blue

725
00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:06,120
Speaker 1: their theory of what he did out of the water,

726
00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:10,319
Speaker 1: because you're saying, hey, we've proved that nobody took a

727
00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:14,600
Speaker 1: shower or used water in this house. But this guy,

728
00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:17,640
Speaker 1: he was buck naked and he killed his wife. Or

729
00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:21,840
Speaker 1: my favorite is he was buck naked. Yeah. The police

730
00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:26,640
Speaker 1: actually questioned him quite extensively about the practice around his

731
00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:29,840
Speaker 1: house of they totally made this up, but they decided

732
00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:33,080
Speaker 1: that he and Julia Julia, they he played the violin

733
00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:35,720
Speaker 1: and Julia played the piano. They had these music nights

734
00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:38,520
Speaker 1: um and they said, well, yeah, you like to do

735
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:43,080
Speaker 1: that naked wearing just your macintosh, don't you. And he said, uh,

736
00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:45,879
Speaker 1: you know what and they said, yeah, yeah, that's how

737
00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:48,000
Speaker 1: you play the violin. When she's playing the piano, you're

738
00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:49,960
Speaker 1: just wearing your raincoat. And he said, no, what are

739
00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:51,799
Speaker 1: you talking about, And they said, no, no no, you you

740
00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:53,920
Speaker 1: like hanging out like that. So we're just gonna go

741
00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:56,440
Speaker 1: ahead and enter that as a matter of fact, you

742
00:40:56,440 --> 00:40:58,800
Speaker 1: would like hanging out with that, so obviously you killed

743
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:02,439
Speaker 1: her like that. So that's the kind of detective work

744
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:07,160
Speaker 1: that was happening around these caves. Um So I think

745
00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:09,880
Speaker 1: that that does it blows a pretty big hole, especially

746
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:13,040
Speaker 1: because the timeline just doesn't match up right. You know,

747
00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:16,000
Speaker 1: we know, based on the timeline that she was seen

748
00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:21,120
Speaker 1: alive at about sixty five he left. He had at

749
00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:23,520
Speaker 1: the earliest he had to have left the house at

750
00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:26,360
Speaker 1: the latest, I would say at six forty nine, but

751
00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:29,239
Speaker 1: probably at six forty five ish. He would have had

752
00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:30,840
Speaker 1: to left the house to be on the tram to

753
00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:33,840
Speaker 1: get there in time. There's no way that he ran it,

754
00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:37,640
Speaker 1: No way he ran those two miles away. And when

755
00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:40,240
Speaker 1: he got home he was he didn't have any blood

756
00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:41,920
Speaker 1: on it at all. Yeah, well, he was clean as

757
00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:44,160
Speaker 1: a whistle. None of his clothes had blood on it.

758
00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:46,480
Speaker 1: He didn't have blood on it, you know, there was

759
00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:49,040
Speaker 1: there was no blood anywhere. And then the earliest he

760
00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:51,839
Speaker 1: could have come back really is eight So there could

761
00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:54,400
Speaker 1: have been a forty five minute gap there, but I

762
00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:58,040
Speaker 1: think he probably was there more like eight thirty based

763
00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:00,360
Speaker 1: on when people were seeing him around that it couldn't

764
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:02,360
Speaker 1: have got back that earlier because he had the interaction

765
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:05,359
Speaker 1: with the policeman. That's seven. So the earliest he could

766
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:07,880
Speaker 1: have been back really is like a thirty Yeah, so

767
00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:10,160
Speaker 1: there's fifteen minutes there. So really you got fifteen minutes

768
00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:14,200
Speaker 1: on either end to commit a brutal murder for you know,

769
00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:18,040
Speaker 1: probably provoked reasons, then totally clean up. That's that's insane

770
00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:21,000
Speaker 1: to me. That's crazy to me. Clean up outside of

771
00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:23,560
Speaker 1: the house because he couldn't do it, because he couldn't

772
00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:27,520
Speaker 1: have done it in the house. Yeah, and so yeah,

773
00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:28,759
Speaker 1: but the only way they were able to get a

774
00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:31,520
Speaker 1: conviction here it was by impeaching the testimony of the

775
00:42:31,560 --> 00:42:34,200
Speaker 1: milk boy, whose name was Alan Close. Yeah, I don't

776
00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:36,160
Speaker 1: know that he was not I thought it was credible.

777
00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:37,719
Speaker 1: Of course I never saw that the guy I heard

778
00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:40,359
Speaker 1: him and actually speak, but yeah, there's no reason to

779
00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:43,840
Speaker 1: not believe. So anyway, that's a big thing, right, the

780
00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:49,120
Speaker 1: medical example that, yeah, and the drains were all dry. Yeah.

781
00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:51,200
Speaker 1: So you guys want to talk about theories because there

782
00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:57,000
Speaker 1: are only two. Yeah, I mean there's two big and

783
00:42:57,040 --> 00:43:00,760
Speaker 1: then there's like some sub theories. Well well, because really,

784
00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:05,200
Speaker 1: well really, either Mr Wallace killed his wife or he didn't.

785
00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:08,719
Speaker 1: And the quote you hear around. This is even Mr

786
00:43:08,719 --> 00:43:11,040
Speaker 1: Wallace killed his wife or he didn't, And if he didn't,

787
00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:14,319
Speaker 1: then we have the perfect crime. I disagree, but hey,

788
00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:17,440
Speaker 1: well yeah, if he did it was a perfect crime.

789
00:43:17,719 --> 00:43:19,640
Speaker 1: If he didn't do it, it it wasn't really the perfect crime.

790
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:21,440
Speaker 1: That's how, you know, lots of people get lots of

791
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:23,359
Speaker 1: people get killed and bludgeoned to death, and nobody ever

792
00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:27,360
Speaker 1: gets got So let's talk about he totally did it first,

793
00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:31,960
Speaker 1: as repeated over and over again, as we just talked about,

794
00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:35,359
Speaker 1: there's no more motive needed to kill your spouse than

795
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:38,240
Speaker 1: being married to them. It sounds like their marriage wasn't

796
00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:42,120
Speaker 1: particularly happy. It didn't sound like it was horrendously unhappy, though,

797
00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:45,400
Speaker 1: it just sounded kind of yeah. But and he but

798
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:48,160
Speaker 1: he wasn't like an adventure seeker, you know. It's not

799
00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:50,280
Speaker 1: like he was saying, oh, I wish that my wife

800
00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:52,640
Speaker 1: would go and take more risks with me and things

801
00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:56,239
Speaker 1: like that. He seemed totally satisfied to just do his thing.

802
00:43:56,400 --> 00:43:59,279
Speaker 1: He sat at home with chemistry, played with electricity, and

803
00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:03,680
Speaker 1: she just kind of things like doing stuff. He was

804
00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:06,680
Speaker 1: hebes and people back in those days, I don't think

805
00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:10,200
Speaker 1: we're quite as romantic about marriage either. So I don't.

806
00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:13,000
Speaker 1: While I while I'm happy to say their marriage wasn't

807
00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:16,239
Speaker 1: happy and passionate, I also don't think it was unhappy.

808
00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:18,400
Speaker 1: I think it was. I would I would describe it

809
00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:22,120
Speaker 1: as an ambivalent marriage, which usually you don't kill over

810
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:25,640
Speaker 1: usually well, yeah, maybe you do. But even if you do, maybe,

811
00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:29,879
Speaker 1: like you know, chemistry, maybe you poison your wife her

812
00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:33,600
Speaker 1: to death. I mean yeah, And you know, definitely, if

813
00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:35,680
Speaker 1: he was really truly sick of her and wanted out,

814
00:44:35,719 --> 00:44:38,759
Speaker 1: then that was a way to avoid paying alimony. So

815
00:44:39,080 --> 00:44:41,600
Speaker 1: that was a motive. Yeah, insurance wasn't a motive. She

816
00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:45,360
Speaker 1: didn't have much in the ways was insurance policy. And

817
00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:49,640
Speaker 1: he would have known that absolutely. So there's the argument

818
00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:51,400
Speaker 1: that he made too much of a fuss over his

819
00:44:51,440 --> 00:44:57,440
Speaker 1: alibi stuff. Another factor is that phone call that he

820
00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:01,600
Speaker 1: originally received at the chess, you know, the message that

821
00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:04,080
Speaker 1: was left for him. Yeah, So it turns out that

822
00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:07,920
Speaker 1: Wallace wasn't that consistent, as we said, of an attendee

823
00:45:08,239 --> 00:45:12,480
Speaker 1: to these things. Beatie did say that he came about

824
00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:15,720
Speaker 1: once every two weeks, and Wallace said that he didn't

825
00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:18,000
Speaker 1: like to He didn't come that often because he didn't

826
00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:20,880
Speaker 1: like to leave his wife alone at night, which okay,

827
00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:25,479
Speaker 1: you know why not. She may have been um, trying

828
00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:28,440
Speaker 1: to think of the right word to say here, a

829
00:45:28,480 --> 00:45:34,120
Speaker 1: little prone to flights of fancy in terms of paranoia.

830
00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:39,040
Speaker 1: Almost she may have been hysterics, thank you. She may

831
00:45:39,080 --> 00:45:41,439
Speaker 1: have just been you can't leave me alone. It's dark

832
00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:45,520
Speaker 1: and scary and yeah, yeah, like he may have chess

833
00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:47,200
Speaker 1: club may have been one of those few times that

834
00:45:47,239 --> 00:45:49,799
Speaker 1: he could pry himself away from her at night. Yeah,

835
00:45:50,360 --> 00:45:53,960
Speaker 1: you know, maybe maybe she really had enemies, so my

836
00:45:54,040 --> 00:45:57,400
Speaker 1: life we didn't know about. She was a government assassin.

837
00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:01,160
Speaker 1: The reason that that that his attendance of the chess

838
00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:04,960
Speaker 1: club is brought up is because how would that mysterious

839
00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:07,600
Speaker 1: caller have known that he was going to be there

840
00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:10,279
Speaker 1: that night? How would you have for that matter of

841
00:46:10,600 --> 00:46:12,520
Speaker 1: how would that guy have even known that he went

842
00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:14,480
Speaker 1: to the chess club at all? Yeah? How would he

843
00:46:14,520 --> 00:46:21,759
Speaker 1: have known that there are some really are? So the

844
00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:27,440
Speaker 1: big claim here, to use Steve's term, is that Wallace

845
00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:30,520
Speaker 1: made the call himself. Right, We can do some debunking

846
00:46:30,560 --> 00:46:34,840
Speaker 1: on this. First of all, Beatie described the caller's voice

847
00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:40,880
Speaker 1: as strong and gruff, pretty much opposite of Wallace's demeanor.

848
00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:44,080
Speaker 1: And he he didn't think that he could have made

849
00:46:44,120 --> 00:46:45,680
Speaker 1: that call. He didn't think that he could have faked

850
00:46:45,719 --> 00:46:50,440
Speaker 1: the voice, which I think is probably fair. Also, there

851
00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:53,799
Speaker 1: there was a posting of the Chess Championships that he

852
00:46:53,840 --> 00:46:58,319
Speaker 1: was taking part in stuff and what day they were Well,

853
00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:00,920
Speaker 1: the time was the same, the time was assistant, but

854
00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:03,440
Speaker 1: it was what days they were showing up. And then

855
00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:06,440
Speaker 1: it was actually posted on a bulletin board next to

856
00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:10,279
Speaker 1: the phone booth that the phone call was received too

857
00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:12,879
Speaker 1: that had the phone number of the phone booth on it,

858
00:47:13,120 --> 00:47:15,560
Speaker 1: so one could have looked at that list and gotten

859
00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:18,759
Speaker 1: the phone number simultaneously. And actually this was not a

860
00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:21,800
Speaker 1: dedicated chess club. It was it was Caddle's City Cafe,

861
00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:24,920
Speaker 1: and a lot of different clubs met there, so it

862
00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:28,520
Speaker 1: was a totally public space. Yeah yeah. And one of

863
00:47:28,719 --> 00:47:31,239
Speaker 1: and one of these, the one of the persons who's

864
00:47:31,239 --> 00:47:33,400
Speaker 1: been named as either a suspect or a person of interest,

865
00:47:33,440 --> 00:47:35,520
Speaker 1: who we'll talk about a little later, was seeing at

866
00:47:35,560 --> 00:47:39,399
Speaker 1: least once at this club. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, So

867
00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:42,000
Speaker 1: that we'll talk about that a little bit. But you know,

868
00:47:42,040 --> 00:47:45,279
Speaker 1: the question is how would that person know that he

869
00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:47,200
Speaker 1: would show up? Well, they had no reason to believe

870
00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:50,400
Speaker 1: that he wouldn't show up. There's some discussion around the

871
00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:52,359
Speaker 1: fact that he actually hadn't been there in a couple

872
00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:55,320
Speaker 1: of weeks, because you can see that it was recorded

873
00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:57,279
Speaker 1: that he lost his first game on the first night

874
00:47:57,320 --> 00:47:59,960
Speaker 1: of the championship on the sheet of paper there's pictures

875
00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:02,640
Speaker 1: it all over him, and then the next two games

876
00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:07,440
Speaker 1: he missed, and then he played that night the nineteen

877
00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:09,880
Speaker 1: He didn't actually play the game he was meant to

878
00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:12,279
Speaker 1: play in the championship. He played somebody else because his

879
00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:15,480
Speaker 1: partner didn't show up again. Reasons this chess club was

880
00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:19,120
Speaker 1: probably disbanded is that nobody seemed to take it very seriously. Yeah,

881
00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:22,160
Speaker 1: so while there's no reason to believe that he wouldn't

882
00:48:22,160 --> 00:48:24,600
Speaker 1: show up, there's also no reason to believe that he

883
00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:29,800
Speaker 1: would show up. I think that it's it's pretty easy

884
00:48:29,960 --> 00:48:32,400
Speaker 1: to see how that person knew that he was going

885
00:48:32,440 --> 00:48:35,520
Speaker 1: to show up based on where the phone call was

886
00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:38,680
Speaker 1: placed from, and it was placed from a phone booth

887
00:48:38,760 --> 00:48:42,880
Speaker 1: that was about three yards from Wallace's house, and a

888
00:48:42,880 --> 00:48:45,000
Speaker 1: lot of people again point to oh, well, then Wallace

889
00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:49,839
Speaker 1: obviously placed the call himself, but no, because he the

890
00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:52,279
Speaker 1: tram that he was on, he would have had to

891
00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:54,680
Speaker 1: have been on the tram about that time. You would

892
00:48:54,680 --> 00:48:57,400
Speaker 1: have had to be at the same time if not,

893
00:48:57,480 --> 00:48:59,960
Speaker 1: the phone was being yeah, that the phone calls being placed.

894
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:01,799
Speaker 1: How many how many tram rides to take to get

895
00:49:01,840 --> 00:49:05,200
Speaker 1: to the chess club A couple? I don't remember. I

896
00:49:05,239 --> 00:49:09,719
Speaker 1: don't remember seeing that specifically listed. I just remember the

897
00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:13,320
Speaker 1: times being called out and that was it. Yeah, So

898
00:49:13,600 --> 00:49:16,200
Speaker 1: I think it would have been really easy for somebody

899
00:49:16,239 --> 00:49:18,920
Speaker 1: to kind of watch him, see that he was leaving

900
00:49:18,920 --> 00:49:21,800
Speaker 1: and no probably where he was going, because it seems

901
00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:23,040
Speaker 1: like that would be the place that he would be

902
00:49:23,040 --> 00:49:25,360
Speaker 1: going at that time, and call and say, oh, is

903
00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:27,279
Speaker 1: he coming tonight? Oh you don't know. Okay, well I'm

904
00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:29,080
Speaker 1: gonna leave this message for him anyway because I know

905
00:49:29,200 --> 00:49:32,640
Speaker 1: he's on the tram and uh. It actually became very

906
00:49:32,680 --> 00:49:35,280
Speaker 1: important to Wallace after he was questioned by the police

907
00:49:35,520 --> 00:49:38,080
Speaker 1: once and then let go, and it became really really

908
00:49:38,080 --> 00:49:42,160
Speaker 1: important to him to know what time, And he asked Beattie, Okay,

909
00:49:42,200 --> 00:49:44,839
Speaker 1: what time exactly? You kind of asked him a lot

910
00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:48,080
Speaker 1: actually did, and Beatie kept saying, I don't know. That's

911
00:49:48,080 --> 00:49:52,120
Speaker 1: the exact same behavior though that we saw him exhibiting

912
00:49:52,520 --> 00:49:55,320
Speaker 1: with the tram drive, right, and so that's the true

913
00:49:55,719 --> 00:49:58,680
Speaker 1: is you there? There's two sides to his claim, right.

914
00:49:59,040 --> 00:50:02,080
Speaker 1: Either he was trying to make sure that Beattie said

915
00:50:02,360 --> 00:50:05,200
Speaker 1: it's this time, It's definitely this time, and that he

916
00:50:05,200 --> 00:50:06,520
Speaker 1: would have been able to say, well, I had to

917
00:50:06,560 --> 00:50:08,360
Speaker 1: have been on the tram that time, you know, to

918
00:50:08,600 --> 00:50:12,480
Speaker 1: establish a further alibi. Or he was trying to recall, okay,

919
00:50:12,520 --> 00:50:15,520
Speaker 1: around that time, where would I have been. Can I

920
00:50:15,600 --> 00:50:18,799
Speaker 1: prove that I'm wasn't there? Oh? And also was there

921
00:50:18,800 --> 00:50:21,240
Speaker 1: anybody kind of like, did I see anybody I knew

922
00:50:21,560 --> 00:50:23,919
Speaker 1: hanging around? Because if I saw somebody I knew hanging around,

923
00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:26,279
Speaker 1: they placed the phone call, they were responsible for me

924
00:50:26,320 --> 00:50:28,359
Speaker 1: being gone when my wife was murdered, and they were

925
00:50:28,360 --> 00:50:30,800
Speaker 1: probably responsible for murdering my wife. He's trying to figure

926
00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:33,799
Speaker 1: it out. So either on either side of that, I

927
00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:37,280
Speaker 1: think um and Beatty said he couldn't recall what time

928
00:50:37,440 --> 00:50:39,319
Speaker 1: the phone call had been placed, But it turned out

929
00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:43,799
Speaker 1: that the Anfield Telephone Exchange somehow by the way that

930
00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:46,120
Speaker 1: the call was placed, and I don't know what that means.

931
00:50:47,719 --> 00:50:49,800
Speaker 1: I thought maybe through an operator, but they had it

932
00:50:49,880 --> 00:50:53,920
Speaker 1: recorded and it wasn't exactly seven pm, so that's the

933
00:50:53,920 --> 00:50:57,080
Speaker 1: time the call was placed. I think that I'm pretty

934
00:50:57,080 --> 00:50:59,120
Speaker 1: sure that Wallace would have had to have been on

935
00:50:59,120 --> 00:51:03,320
Speaker 1: the tram by that point. But yeah, it's just everything

936
00:51:03,320 --> 00:51:06,239
Speaker 1: that I've seen about the guy doesn't show me that

937
00:51:06,280 --> 00:51:08,400
Speaker 1: he has it any Yeah. I don't think he had

938
00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:11,120
Speaker 1: the guile. I don't think he was smart enough either,

939
00:51:11,480 --> 00:51:14,560
Speaker 1: And I really don't. I don't think there was any motive,

940
00:51:14,640 --> 00:51:17,600
Speaker 1: and I don't think at the time. Yeah, even if

941
00:51:17,600 --> 00:51:20,280
Speaker 1: it didn't like his wife, you know, I mean, beating

942
00:51:20,280 --> 00:51:22,880
Speaker 1: somebody to death, I would imagine this. You know, he

943
00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:25,160
Speaker 1: didn't seem to have that kind of character. He didn't. Again,

944
00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:28,479
Speaker 1: he knew chemistry, why not just poisoner. Okay, so let's

945
00:51:28,560 --> 00:51:31,000
Speaker 1: move on to the theory heading not just the theory,

946
00:51:31,040 --> 00:51:33,319
Speaker 1: the theory heading that he totally did not do it

947
00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:37,359
Speaker 1: and new end at the time? Right. The time is

948
00:51:37,400 --> 00:51:39,799
Speaker 1: such a huge problem for me in this is like,

949
00:51:39,880 --> 00:51:42,799
Speaker 1: where did he have the time to commit this murder? Yeah?

950
00:51:43,040 --> 00:51:45,680
Speaker 1: Where and clean up after himself? Yeah, that's the whole

951
00:51:45,680 --> 00:51:49,279
Speaker 1: problem is even if say the milk Boy was totally off,

952
00:51:49,400 --> 00:51:52,480
Speaker 1: totally wrong about the time, there's still the whole question

953
00:51:52,680 --> 00:51:54,360
Speaker 1: of how he managed to do it and go somewhere

954
00:51:54,360 --> 00:51:56,640
Speaker 1: and get all cleaned up and change and not be

955
00:51:56,680 --> 00:51:58,520
Speaker 1: seen and not be seen. Of course this was like

956
00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:03,280
Speaker 1: probably would have been pretty dark in Liverpool, six pm

957
00:52:03,480 --> 00:52:06,840
Speaker 1: at the most. At the most, he had forty nine minutes,

958
00:52:07,640 --> 00:52:11,560
Speaker 1: because it's the somebody saw him coming home at six thirty.

959
00:52:11,960 --> 00:52:14,920
Speaker 1: So it's substantiated that are at six. Sorry that he

960
00:52:15,000 --> 00:52:17,399
Speaker 1: didn't get home any earlier than six, and he had

961
00:52:17,440 --> 00:52:23,000
Speaker 1: to have left at six before probably, But you know, again,

962
00:52:23,400 --> 00:52:26,080
Speaker 1: the most unaccounted time that we can give him is

963
00:52:26,120 --> 00:52:29,319
Speaker 1: forty nine minutes. And that's not still not a lot

964
00:52:29,360 --> 00:52:32,359
Speaker 1: of time, not really, it's still not And I'm not

965
00:52:32,400 --> 00:52:35,239
Speaker 1: willing to say that the milk boy was wrong. I

966
00:52:35,239 --> 00:52:37,799
Speaker 1: think he. I think he. There's every reason to believe

967
00:52:37,840 --> 00:52:39,839
Speaker 1: that he knew exactly what time it was when he

968
00:52:39,880 --> 00:52:42,480
Speaker 1: picked up the milk money. Yeah, he saw that there

969
00:52:42,560 --> 00:52:45,759
Speaker 1: was a church nearby and it was invisible actually from

970
00:52:45,800 --> 00:52:47,840
Speaker 1: the house. But but it was about that time, but

971
00:52:47,880 --> 00:52:50,520
Speaker 1: from not far away. That's why there's that little you know,

972
00:52:50,640 --> 00:52:53,160
Speaker 1: it was either six thirty or sixty five. I don't know.

973
00:52:53,200 --> 00:52:55,560
Speaker 1: I just the time is such a big problem for me.

974
00:52:56,040 --> 00:52:59,759
Speaker 1: I interrupt, absolutely awesome, So I just I don't know.

975
00:53:00,040 --> 00:53:02,720
Speaker 1: I hadn't really thought about this, and I've never actually

976
00:53:02,800 --> 00:53:07,200
Speaker 1: seen this given much credence at all. But if he

977
00:53:07,360 --> 00:53:11,399
Speaker 1: has such an ironclad alibi, well maybe he did do it,

978
00:53:11,600 --> 00:53:14,440
Speaker 1: but he hired it out, like he may have hired

979
00:53:14,480 --> 00:53:16,720
Speaker 1: somebody and said, Hey, I'm gonna go get on the tram,

980
00:53:17,160 --> 00:53:22,120
Speaker 1: go call me and then okay, I'm going to my appointment.

981
00:53:22,440 --> 00:53:26,000
Speaker 1: Wink wink. Go do your job and you'll get your

982
00:53:26,400 --> 00:53:29,680
Speaker 1: twenty pounds in a couple of days when the heat

983
00:53:29,719 --> 00:53:32,759
Speaker 1: dies down, because everybody's gonna you know, people do this

984
00:53:32,840 --> 00:53:35,560
Speaker 1: all the time, and they they get somebody killed and

985
00:53:35,600 --> 00:53:39,120
Speaker 1: they expect all of the sympathy to be thrown at

986
00:53:39,160 --> 00:53:43,319
Speaker 1: them and they're the poor sad widower now and then

987
00:53:43,400 --> 00:53:48,200
Speaker 1: it all backfires. Just doesn't seem Again, there are toldly

988
00:53:48,280 --> 00:53:50,839
Speaker 1: Guet that it doesn't make sense for him because that's

989
00:53:50,880 --> 00:53:54,120
Speaker 1: not the way he seems. There are there there are

990
00:53:54,120 --> 00:53:56,399
Speaker 1: people out there who say that he did actually hire

991
00:53:56,400 --> 00:53:59,359
Speaker 1: somebody to do it. Um. There are there are people

992
00:53:59,400 --> 00:54:01,759
Speaker 1: out there who's said that aliens did it too. So

993
00:54:01,800 --> 00:54:07,440
Speaker 1: I mean that hated her. They just hated her for

994
00:54:07,640 --> 00:54:09,400
Speaker 1: because she knew too much. I guess I don't know

995
00:54:09,520 --> 00:54:11,839
Speaker 1: she insulted their big eyes. Well. Another thing is that,

996
00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:15,319
Speaker 1: like everybody talks about this case being perfect and there

997
00:54:15,360 --> 00:54:18,520
Speaker 1: they admire it because it's like this mastermind chess game,

998
00:54:20,000 --> 00:54:23,200
Speaker 1: which okay, one of the things that Wallace liked was chess.

999
00:54:23,280 --> 00:54:26,320
Speaker 1: But he was horrible at it. He was so bad

1000
00:54:26,360 --> 00:54:28,560
Speaker 1: at it. I probably could have beat him. And I'm like,

1001
00:54:28,760 --> 00:54:31,040
Speaker 1: can't play chess at all. I mean, he was okay,

1002
00:54:31,080 --> 00:54:32,880
Speaker 1: he won everyone something. I thought it was kind of

1003
00:54:32,920 --> 00:54:36,840
Speaker 1: mediocre rather than actually terrible. He was a mediocre player.

1004
00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:40,040
Speaker 1: I'm gonna say mediocre at best. But he was not

1005
00:54:40,239 --> 00:54:44,160
Speaker 1: this like chess mastermind. Chess wasn't his whole life. He

1006
00:54:44,320 --> 00:54:47,640
Speaker 1: liked it, sure, but he liked chemistry too. He liked

1007
00:54:47,719 --> 00:54:51,000
Speaker 1: botany too. He liked playing with electrics too. He liked

1008
00:54:51,000 --> 00:54:53,239
Speaker 1: playing the violin. He was awful of the violin. He

1009
00:54:53,320 --> 00:54:56,200
Speaker 1: liked me he wasn't really very good at He hadn't

1010
00:54:56,239 --> 00:54:59,239
Speaker 1: actually been playing the violin very long, really late in

1011
00:54:59,280 --> 00:55:03,960
Speaker 1: life for sure. But I'm just saying that, like, it

1012
00:55:04,360 --> 00:55:07,080
Speaker 1: seems like it was a thing that he liked and

1013
00:55:07,160 --> 00:55:09,759
Speaker 1: it happened that, Yeah, the call was placed when he

1014
00:55:09,800 --> 00:55:11,960
Speaker 1: was at this chess club. But he didn't go that often.

1015
00:55:12,200 --> 00:55:17,120
Speaker 1: It also appears that the media at the time really

1016
00:55:17,280 --> 00:55:20,279
Speaker 1: drove home the idea that he was some kind of

1017
00:55:20,440 --> 00:55:24,560
Speaker 1: chess mastermind, because they're spreads from the time that you

1018
00:55:24,600 --> 00:55:30,080
Speaker 1: can see and they may look his long, spindly, pointy fingers.

1019
00:55:30,120 --> 00:55:35,400
Speaker 1: He obviously has a genius brain. All this really weird

1020
00:55:35,560 --> 00:55:38,000
Speaker 1: claims you could get away with at the time. But

1021
00:55:38,040 --> 00:55:42,319
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure the whole chess thing it's the media's fault. Yeah, yeah,

1022
00:55:42,560 --> 00:55:44,960
Speaker 1: But I just think it's it's interesting and I just

1023
00:55:45,000 --> 00:55:47,600
Speaker 1: want to make sure everybody knows he wasn't some like

1024
00:55:47,960 --> 00:55:52,080
Speaker 1: mastermind chess player. He was a mediocre at best player.

1025
00:55:52,920 --> 00:55:57,279
Speaker 1: I think it was an intelligent guy. Your smarts and

1026
00:55:57,360 --> 00:56:01,279
Speaker 1: your your gamesmanship are two. Yeah, you can, you can

1027
00:56:01,360 --> 00:56:03,839
Speaker 1: be very smart, but allows you chess player. I'm very

1028
00:56:03,840 --> 00:56:07,480
Speaker 1: smart and I'm a terrible chess player. Oh you're very smart. Yeah,

1029
00:56:08,040 --> 00:56:13,200
Speaker 1: that's that's what I'm saying. No, I mean it's yes,

1030
00:56:13,320 --> 00:56:15,560
Speaker 1: that's true. You don't have to be smart to be

1031
00:56:15,560 --> 00:56:19,560
Speaker 1: a good chess player and vice versa. But I just don't.

1032
00:56:19,760 --> 00:56:22,359
Speaker 1: I don't I don't see it. I don't see him

1033
00:56:22,360 --> 00:56:24,359
Speaker 1: as this like calculate. I mean, he lost his job

1034
00:56:24,480 --> 00:56:26,920
Speaker 1: so many times, and he kind of like, he seemed

1035
00:56:27,000 --> 00:56:29,799
Speaker 1: kind of like this meek little I want to use

1036
00:56:29,840 --> 00:56:32,239
Speaker 1: the term bumbling. I don't think that's right, but he

1037
00:56:32,400 --> 00:56:36,719
Speaker 1: just kind of seems like, you know, criminal masterminds want

1038
00:56:36,760 --> 00:56:41,040
Speaker 1: you to believe that. But didn't you see the usual suspects. Yeah,

1039
00:56:41,120 --> 00:56:43,600
Speaker 1: that's true, except for that he would have if he

1040
00:56:44,440 --> 00:56:47,239
Speaker 1: but if he had been taking that personality on, he

1041
00:56:47,239 --> 00:56:49,920
Speaker 1: would have appeared that way in his trial to right,

1042
00:56:50,160 --> 00:56:53,919
Speaker 1: he wouldn't have appeared detached and cold, right, which makes

1043
00:56:54,120 --> 00:56:56,400
Speaker 1: makes me think it's more authentic. You know, all of

1044
00:56:56,440 --> 00:56:58,680
Speaker 1: the interactions to hear about before his wife's murder, I

1045
00:56:58,680 --> 00:57:02,680
Speaker 1: think he's kind of awkward and weird and you know,

1046
00:57:02,719 --> 00:57:05,040
Speaker 1: again bumbly, even though it's not the right word. And

1047
00:57:05,080 --> 00:57:08,440
Speaker 1: then after he sees his wife having been bludgeoned to death,

1048
00:57:09,000 --> 00:57:12,239
Speaker 1: he detaches and goes cold. And that seems like a

1049
00:57:12,280 --> 00:57:15,200
Speaker 1: normal human behavior to me, but apparently everybody else that

1050
00:57:15,280 --> 00:57:18,400
Speaker 1: seems like a criminal mastermind. So there you go. Yeah,

1051
00:57:18,560 --> 00:57:21,880
Speaker 1: So if it's not him, then who That's the big

1052
00:57:21,960 --> 00:57:25,840
Speaker 1: question right there. There are a couple other suspects, actually,

1053
00:57:26,120 --> 00:57:28,680
Speaker 1: and one of them is a young man by the

1054
00:57:28,920 --> 00:57:31,959
Speaker 1: well he was young at the time. Excuse me, he's

1055
00:57:32,000 --> 00:57:35,480
Speaker 1: dead now he's not. He wasn't young. Uh. Yeah. His

1056
00:57:35,560 --> 00:57:38,520
Speaker 1: name is Richard Perry and he was twenty two years old,

1057
00:57:38,600 --> 00:57:41,360
Speaker 1: and he had very recently left or been fired from

1058
00:57:41,400 --> 00:57:43,960
Speaker 1: his job with the Prudential. I didn't see anything they

1059
00:57:43,960 --> 00:57:48,200
Speaker 1: indicated that he had been fired that indicated that he

1060
00:57:48,200 --> 00:57:50,240
Speaker 1: had been less sort of let go, because apparently he

1061
00:57:50,320 --> 00:57:54,720
Speaker 1: had a similar job as as Lawless And I know,

1062
00:57:54,800 --> 00:57:56,880
Speaker 1: I know where you're going with that. But the things

1063
00:57:56,880 --> 00:57:59,680
Speaker 1: that I had read all indicated that he was there

1064
00:57:59,760 --> 00:58:03,840
Speaker 1: for a while after everything happened. But nothing that did

1065
00:58:03,920 --> 00:58:06,160
Speaker 1: I read indicated that he was fired. It just he

1066
00:58:06,320 --> 00:58:10,160
Speaker 1: left a job similar company. I heard that there was

1067
00:58:10,160 --> 00:58:12,320
Speaker 1: a little bit of a little bit of embarrassment over

1068
00:58:12,400 --> 00:58:14,720
Speaker 1: money not turned in, and then his parents came forward

1069
00:58:14,720 --> 00:58:19,200
Speaker 1: and paid basically the thirty poundfference. Then then then you

1070
00:58:19,240 --> 00:58:21,320
Speaker 1: found something he didn't get Okay, I did not get

1071
00:58:21,320 --> 00:58:24,400
Speaker 1: fired exactly, but he did leave the job, and there's

1072
00:58:24,920 --> 00:58:28,320
Speaker 1: that he was he was asked kindly to leave, and

1073
00:58:28,360 --> 00:58:31,000
Speaker 1: that then there was a rumor that Wallace had played

1074
00:58:31,040 --> 00:58:34,480
Speaker 1: a part in that. Yeah, there was that rumor that

1075
00:58:34,480 --> 00:58:37,040
Speaker 1: that Wallace knew because he was he had taken over

1076
00:58:37,160 --> 00:58:42,320
Speaker 1: some of Wallace's account when Wallace had about of meningitis, pneumonia.

1077
00:58:42,520 --> 00:58:45,880
Speaker 1: I think it was bronchitischitis, one of those meningitis is

1078
00:58:46,120 --> 00:58:52,160
Speaker 1: you're right, yeah, bronchitis, right. I think it was brons

1079
00:58:52,880 --> 00:58:58,120
Speaker 1: So Perry had been collecting and uh, somebody I think said, oh,

1080
00:58:58,240 --> 00:59:01,360
Speaker 1: you know, this account didn't pay and bowl and and

1081
00:59:01,360 --> 00:59:04,280
Speaker 1: and Wallace thought that's odd. I'm sure they did. And

1082
00:59:04,360 --> 00:59:07,400
Speaker 1: it turned out that Perry had stolen some money and

1083
00:59:07,440 --> 00:59:10,160
Speaker 1: Wallace reported him or didn't report. You can read some

1084
00:59:10,200 --> 00:59:13,920
Speaker 1: accounts that say like and Perry just didn't report him

1085
00:59:14,000 --> 00:59:16,640
Speaker 1: and just but oh no, I'm sorry that Wallace didn't

1086
00:59:16,680 --> 00:59:19,120
Speaker 1: report Perry, but that Perry knew that Wallace knew, and

1087
00:59:19,800 --> 00:59:24,480
Speaker 1: or I believe more than probably Wallace reported Perry because

1088
00:59:24,720 --> 00:59:26,160
Speaker 1: he might have reported him, or he might have got

1089
00:59:26,200 --> 00:59:28,800
Speaker 1: to Perry and say, hey, dude, you either cough up

1090
00:59:28,840 --> 00:59:31,120
Speaker 1: this money or I'm turning you in. And so that's

1091
00:59:31,120 --> 00:59:32,760
Speaker 1: when he went to his parents and got some money

1092
00:59:32,760 --> 00:59:36,520
Speaker 1: and paid it off and then left. Eventually left anycause

1093
00:59:36,520 --> 00:59:39,560
Speaker 1: he really fancied himself as a bit of a playboy,

1094
00:59:40,320 --> 00:59:44,040
Speaker 1: but he was always broke. Yeah, I've got all this money.

1095
00:59:44,400 --> 00:59:48,160
Speaker 1: Just not right now? Yeah? Yeah, speaking of Perry, he

1096
00:59:48,280 --> 00:59:50,520
Speaker 1: is he isn't He is a suspect for some people.

1097
00:59:50,600 --> 00:59:54,040
Speaker 1: And then there's other people who say that P. D. James,

1098
00:59:54,080 --> 00:59:56,680
Speaker 1: for example, that the mystery writer. We're gonna talk about this,

1099
00:59:57,160 --> 00:59:59,160
Speaker 1: talk about that lay Yeah, no, no, no no, sorry, just

1100
00:59:59,560 --> 01:00:02,720
Speaker 1: keep your hat on. There's another did you did you

1101
01:00:02,760 --> 01:00:06,560
Speaker 1: hear anything about Joseph Caleb mars Marsden. Yeah, but we'll

1102
01:00:06,560 --> 01:00:10,360
Speaker 1: talk about that too, Okay. So it seems that actually

1103
01:00:10,400 --> 01:00:13,120
Speaker 1: collection agents at the time, would you know, walk around,

1104
01:00:13,120 --> 01:00:15,520
Speaker 1: like Steve was saying, and collect their money, their dues

1105
01:00:15,840 --> 01:00:18,120
Speaker 1: and keep them in a lock box, often overnight at

1106
01:00:18,160 --> 01:00:20,160
Speaker 1: their homes and then go in the next morning and

1107
01:00:20,200 --> 01:00:23,320
Speaker 1: turn all the money in. And that's what that's what

1108
01:00:23,360 --> 01:00:25,600
Speaker 1: Wallace tended to do, although I don't think it was

1109
01:00:25,640 --> 01:00:27,080
Speaker 1: even a lock box. I think it was more like

1110
01:00:27,120 --> 01:00:31,320
Speaker 1: a cigar box a box. Yeah. Yeah, Perry apparently being

1111
01:00:31,360 --> 01:00:34,600
Speaker 1: the jerk that he was, um and he knew Julia.

1112
01:00:35,200 --> 01:00:38,640
Speaker 1: They because I guess Perry and Wallace had been mildly

1113
01:00:38,680 --> 01:00:43,480
Speaker 1: friendly at least when when Perry was doing Wallace's collections. Yeah,

1114
01:00:43,520 --> 01:00:44,800
Speaker 1: because he had to stop by at the end of

1115
01:00:44,840 --> 01:00:48,520
Speaker 1: the day and turn the money over. Yeah, so the

1116
01:00:48,520 --> 01:00:52,640
Speaker 1: theory goes that he made the fake call in order

1117
01:00:52,680 --> 01:00:55,800
Speaker 1: to rob Wallace because he thought Wallace would have all

1118
01:00:56,000 --> 01:00:58,400
Speaker 1: all of these collections at the end of the next night.

1119
01:00:58,560 --> 01:01:00,920
Speaker 1: And he knocked on the door and Julia said, oh,

1120
01:01:00,960 --> 01:01:03,880
Speaker 1: it's you, Mr Perry, come in, and so he came

1121
01:01:03,880 --> 01:01:06,479
Speaker 1: in and bludgeoned her to death and tried to rob

1122
01:01:06,800 --> 01:01:09,040
Speaker 1: Mr Wallace of all of his takings for the day.

1123
01:01:09,280 --> 01:01:10,800
Speaker 1: But it turned out that it was just like a

1124
01:01:10,840 --> 01:01:13,440
Speaker 1: couple of pounds. It was four pounds something like that,

1125
01:01:13,480 --> 01:01:16,720
Speaker 1: you know, some some tiny, tiny amount, and so it was,

1126
01:01:16,880 --> 01:01:19,840
Speaker 1: you know, that sucked for him, and he left, and

1127
01:01:20,160 --> 01:01:24,040
Speaker 1: I don't know, never came forward, obviously obviously understanding about

1128
01:01:24,040 --> 01:01:25,720
Speaker 1: the way that the way it worked is. And I'm

1129
01:01:25,760 --> 01:01:27,920
Speaker 1: not sure exactly what the timing was, but it's like

1130
01:01:28,520 --> 01:01:31,080
Speaker 1: there were some people who paid like once a week

1131
01:01:31,400 --> 01:01:34,520
Speaker 1: and other people paid like once a month. So on

1132
01:01:34,560 --> 01:01:37,640
Speaker 1: those days when the once a month payers are paying,

1133
01:01:37,920 --> 01:01:39,320
Speaker 1: there's a lot of money. That's go be a lot

1134
01:01:39,360 --> 01:01:43,600
Speaker 1: of money, right, Yeah, So he miscalculated, maybe he misfigured,

1135
01:01:43,640 --> 01:01:46,080
Speaker 1: which was that all these people were going to be

1136
01:01:46,080 --> 01:01:49,280
Speaker 1: paying making their monthly payment or not. Yeah, so, um,

1137
01:01:49,320 --> 01:01:52,520
Speaker 1: there's a little evidence. I guess. I don't know how

1138
01:01:52,600 --> 01:01:54,800
Speaker 1: reliable it is, but that's going to say this, this

1139
01:01:54,880 --> 01:01:59,080
Speaker 1: is circumstantial to Yes, yeah, he did have a car.

1140
01:02:00,280 --> 01:02:03,640
Speaker 1: Perry did. And apparently a mechanic either saw a bloody

1141
01:02:03,640 --> 01:02:06,840
Speaker 1: glove in Perry's car or saw Perry hosing the interior

1142
01:02:06,920 --> 01:02:09,080
Speaker 1: of his car out with a high pressured hose while

1143
01:02:09,120 --> 01:02:12,160
Speaker 1: his gloves were covered in blood. I'm not totally sure.

1144
01:02:12,640 --> 01:02:15,800
Speaker 1: And then um, Perry's alibi when the police questioned him

1145
01:02:15,880 --> 01:02:21,560
Speaker 1: was given by his then fiance, who later jilted, adacted

1146
01:02:21,560 --> 01:02:23,920
Speaker 1: the statement and offered a new statement saying that Perry

1147
01:02:23,960 --> 01:02:27,240
Speaker 1: had not been with her that night. Yeah what did

1148
01:02:27,280 --> 01:02:31,040
Speaker 1: I say? I'm oh, I yeah, retracted is what I meant. Yeah, sorry,

1149
01:02:31,360 --> 01:02:36,800
Speaker 1: that kind of same thing, crossed out the same thing. Yeah,

1150
01:02:36,960 --> 01:02:40,200
Speaker 1: So lesson to all of your gentlemen out there. If

1151
01:02:40,200 --> 01:02:42,480
Speaker 1: you're in a relationship and you murder someone and your

1152
01:02:42,640 --> 01:02:47,040
Speaker 1: significant other is your alibi, do not jilt that person?

1153
01:02:47,440 --> 01:02:52,520
Speaker 1: What that person? Forever? Haven't you guys learned your lesson?

1154
01:02:52,600 --> 01:02:56,720
Speaker 1: Come on, guys. Yeah, anyway, she said, you know, Perry

1155
01:02:56,720 --> 01:02:58,400
Speaker 1: asked me to provide this alibi. I have no idea

1156
01:02:58,440 --> 01:03:02,120
Speaker 1: where he was that night. I mean, you know, he

1157
01:03:02,200 --> 01:03:06,200
Speaker 1: had time, he had a kind of possible motive. He

1158
01:03:06,240 --> 01:03:09,680
Speaker 1: had a shoddy alibi, shoddier alibi than Wallace had. To

1159
01:03:09,720 --> 01:03:12,960
Speaker 1: be fair, there's actually more evidence for Perry to have

1160
01:03:13,000 --> 01:03:16,800
Speaker 1: done this than there is Wallace. Definitely, well there's not

1161
01:03:16,960 --> 01:03:18,919
Speaker 1: much in the way of evidence, but definitely it's it's

1162
01:03:19,040 --> 01:03:21,560
Speaker 1: possible where it doesn't appear to be really possible that

1163
01:03:21,560 --> 01:03:25,000
Speaker 1: Wallace could have done it. Yeah. So the only other

1164
01:03:25,080 --> 01:03:27,240
Speaker 1: thing to like add to this is there were a

1165
01:03:27,280 --> 01:03:30,560
Speaker 1: couple journalists at the time who were pretty convinced that

1166
01:03:30,600 --> 01:03:33,320
Speaker 1: Perry had done it, and they questioned him, and he

1167
01:03:33,440 --> 01:03:35,240
Speaker 1: kept saying no, no, I didn't do it, No, I

1168
01:03:35,280 --> 01:03:39,120
Speaker 1: didn't do it. But they finally questioned him on his

1169
01:03:39,200 --> 01:03:46,040
Speaker 1: doorstep in nineteen sixty six. No, no, no, on Perry's doorstep. Sorry,

1170
01:03:46,240 --> 01:03:49,880
Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty six, excuse me, And reportedly he had

1171
01:03:49,920 --> 01:03:52,920
Speaker 1: a shockingly in depth understanding of the case and including

1172
01:03:52,920 --> 01:03:55,040
Speaker 1: the fact that he knew lots of details that were

1173
01:03:55,080 --> 01:04:00,480
Speaker 1: like way unknown by the lay person and d tales

1174
01:04:00,520 --> 01:04:03,720
Speaker 1: on lower level witnesses like when they died or how

1175
01:04:03,760 --> 01:04:08,960
Speaker 1: they died, um and basically basically knowledge that somebody shouldn't

1176
01:04:09,000 --> 01:04:11,960
Speaker 1: have necessarily. It seems that he took a very keen

1177
01:04:12,040 --> 01:04:15,240
Speaker 1: interest in the case. Yeah, although you know what, he

1178
01:04:15,320 --> 01:04:18,760
Speaker 1: was questioned by the police at the time, right, Yeah,

1179
01:04:18,800 --> 01:04:20,840
Speaker 1: I mean I don't think this is that unusual because

1180
01:04:20,920 --> 01:04:23,320
Speaker 1: number one, that was a very famous case. He was

1181
01:04:23,360 --> 01:04:27,880
Speaker 1: perfectly involved, So you know, I don't think as much

1182
01:04:27,920 --> 01:04:30,600
Speaker 1: as he can but to continue to learn about, like

1183
01:04:30,600 --> 01:04:33,600
Speaker 1: he tracked those witnesses and knew about their lives after

1184
01:04:33,640 --> 01:04:35,880
Speaker 1: the case. Maybe he was trying to solve it. Maybe

1185
01:04:35,960 --> 01:04:39,000
Speaker 1: he was. Yeah, maybe he was. Yeah. So that's the

1186
01:04:39,040 --> 01:04:41,080
Speaker 1: evidence for Perry. And then there's one of the things

1187
01:04:41,160 --> 01:04:42,760
Speaker 1: we were that Joe was about to talk about and

1188
01:04:42,800 --> 01:04:44,479
Speaker 1: now we're going to actually talk about it is Pete

1189
01:04:44,600 --> 01:04:48,280
Speaker 1: James's claim that Perry made the prank phone call but

1190
01:04:48,400 --> 01:04:51,680
Speaker 1: then Wallace committed the murder anyway, and that they were

1191
01:04:51,680 --> 01:04:55,280
Speaker 1: totally unconnected. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, she said, because Perry, because

1192
01:04:55,320 --> 01:04:59,080
Speaker 1: Perry apparently was a little a little angry over his

1193
01:05:00,120 --> 01:05:03,520
Speaker 1: the whole incident at the Prudential. Yeah, so just for

1194
01:05:03,640 --> 01:05:05,520
Speaker 1: funny thought, he play a mean little prank and send

1195
01:05:05,560 --> 01:05:08,240
Speaker 1: him on a wild goose chase, and so that so

1196
01:05:08,480 --> 01:05:10,560
Speaker 1: it might have been him, and that would explain why

1197
01:05:10,600 --> 01:05:12,640
Speaker 1: the phone call was made from that particular phone booth,

1198
01:05:13,720 --> 01:05:17,040
Speaker 1: because he's gonna like observe him leaving for his chess

1199
01:05:17,040 --> 01:05:19,360
Speaker 1: club thing. Perry was the one Perry, by the way,

1200
01:05:19,520 --> 01:05:22,200
Speaker 1: I was involved with an acting club and they actually

1201
01:05:22,200 --> 01:05:24,000
Speaker 1: met at the same place that the chess club did,

1202
01:05:24,400 --> 01:05:26,360
Speaker 1: and so he would have he would have known if

1203
01:05:26,360 --> 01:05:28,360
Speaker 1: he had seen him there. He had seen Wallace at

1204
01:05:28,360 --> 01:05:30,760
Speaker 1: the chess club at that place before, so he would

1205
01:05:30,760 --> 01:05:33,439
Speaker 1: have had an idea. So it's Monday night, he sort

1206
01:05:33,480 --> 01:05:36,680
Speaker 1: of stakes at the place on Wolverton Street where they lived,

1207
01:05:37,080 --> 01:05:39,560
Speaker 1: and then season leaving assume it's for the chess club,

1208
01:05:39,680 --> 01:05:41,760
Speaker 1: goes to the goes to the phone booth, makes that

1209
01:05:41,840 --> 01:05:44,560
Speaker 1: phone call and leaves that message sending on a wild

1210
01:05:44,600 --> 01:05:47,280
Speaker 1: goose goose chase. But it was just a mean, practical

1211
01:05:47,360 --> 01:05:50,280
Speaker 1: joke more than anything else. It wasn't the whole thing

1212
01:05:50,360 --> 01:05:54,520
Speaker 1: about that street sounds so much like just a practical joke.

1213
01:05:55,320 --> 01:05:58,960
Speaker 1: It was a snipe hunt. H Yeah. But then so

1214
01:05:59,160 --> 01:06:02,240
Speaker 1: I read and I read an article or two about

1215
01:06:02,240 --> 01:06:05,080
Speaker 1: Pete james Is claims that she had solved it and

1216
01:06:05,120 --> 01:06:06,800
Speaker 1: that she you know, she knew it was Wallace that

1217
01:06:06,840 --> 01:06:08,800
Speaker 1: had done. And I still don't quite get her argument.

1218
01:06:08,800 --> 01:06:11,720
Speaker 1: I don't either, Yeah, yeah, I mean I really don't.

1219
01:06:11,760 --> 01:06:14,439
Speaker 1: Actually I think her theory about Perry making the phone

1220
01:06:14,440 --> 01:06:18,840
Speaker 1: call is reasonable, but as far as Wallace still not convinced,

1221
01:06:18,840 --> 01:06:21,640
Speaker 1: I'm not either. And then we have one more theory

1222
01:06:22,760 --> 01:06:27,680
Speaker 1: with Marsden, right, yeah, yeah, yeah. Joseph Caleb Marsden, Yeah, yeah,

1223
01:06:27,720 --> 01:06:30,600
Speaker 1: he had. And this is a game from John Gannon's

1224
01:06:30,600 --> 01:06:33,840
Speaker 1: book The Killing of Julia Wallace. Uh and he says,

1225
01:06:33,880 --> 01:06:38,160
Speaker 1: he alleges that Wallace hired he hired Joseph Caleb Marsden

1226
01:06:38,240 --> 01:06:42,040
Speaker 1: to do it through through Richard Gordon Perry because actually

1227
01:06:42,040 --> 01:06:46,200
Speaker 1: Perry new Marsden, and and so Marsden actually did the

1228
01:06:46,240 --> 01:06:50,240
Speaker 1: dirty work. And that's theory, yeah, yeah, or the other theory.

1229
01:06:50,280 --> 01:06:53,120
Speaker 1: I also heard that Marsden did the dirty work for Perry,

1230
01:06:53,320 --> 01:06:55,960
Speaker 1: not for wall I mean, you know, there's you know,

1231
01:06:56,000 --> 01:06:58,720
Speaker 1: one of the things that is troubling about this case.

1232
01:06:58,720 --> 01:07:02,760
Speaker 1: For instance, is there a lot of books written about

1233
01:07:02,760 --> 01:07:06,040
Speaker 1: this case, and and some of the information in there

1234
01:07:06,240 --> 01:07:09,880
Speaker 1: is shoddy at best. I would say, um, like one

1235
01:07:09,920 --> 01:07:13,320
Speaker 1: of them says that it's unknown if Wallace won the

1236
01:07:13,320 --> 01:07:16,360
Speaker 1: prize for the Chess Championship which he was competing, which

1237
01:07:16,400 --> 01:07:20,800
Speaker 1: is absurd because he played in one official maybe two

1238
01:07:21,200 --> 01:07:23,640
Speaker 1: maybe I don't know if that one on January nineteen

1239
01:07:23,720 --> 01:07:26,840
Speaker 1: counted or not towards the championship, but there were like

1240
01:07:27,280 --> 01:07:31,000
Speaker 1: seven games, eight games. He played in one and lost,

1241
01:07:31,480 --> 01:07:34,600
Speaker 1: played in another one and one, but it was it

1242
01:07:34,640 --> 01:07:38,680
Speaker 1: was different than he was in jail, so he definitely

1243
01:07:38,800 --> 01:07:41,920
Speaker 1: didn't win. So I don't know why this book is

1244
01:07:41,960 --> 01:07:45,240
Speaker 1: saying we don't know if he's a series that ran through.

1245
01:07:45,680 --> 01:07:49,400
Speaker 1: I think that was March, March, very March, somewhere in

1246
01:07:49,400 --> 01:07:52,520
Speaker 1: there and it ended, so there's no way. Yeah, he couldn't.

1247
01:07:52,720 --> 01:07:54,560
Speaker 1: But it just goes to show you that even before

1248
01:07:54,560 --> 01:07:57,439
Speaker 1: the Internet existed, there there was the bills getting out

1249
01:07:57,440 --> 01:08:00,480
Speaker 1: there in the public spaces. Yeah. Yeah, Actually, you know

1250
01:08:00,480 --> 01:08:02,320
Speaker 1: what I just remembered while we were talking about this.

1251
01:08:02,520 --> 01:08:05,120
Speaker 1: That second match that he played that night. He played

1252
01:08:05,120 --> 01:08:07,520
Speaker 1: against a friend who was ranked like a couple of

1253
01:08:07,720 --> 01:08:10,440
Speaker 1: ranks higher than him, so they were ineligible to play

1254
01:08:10,480 --> 01:08:14,840
Speaker 1: against each other in the championship. So he did win

1255
01:08:14,920 --> 01:08:18,760
Speaker 1: that game on the internet. Okay, he won the game,

1256
01:08:18,800 --> 01:08:21,240
Speaker 1: but officially he only played one game in the championship,

1257
01:08:21,240 --> 01:08:23,639
Speaker 1: and he lost, So he definitely and he was super

1258
01:08:23,680 --> 01:08:27,000
Speaker 1: proud of winning that match, which he should have been.

1259
01:08:29,920 --> 01:08:33,800
Speaker 1: He should have been because this guy was really good

1260
01:08:33,840 --> 01:08:36,720
Speaker 1: chess player, actually a really good chess player. Yeah, but

1261
01:08:36,760 --> 01:08:40,360
Speaker 1: I guess you know. My final thoughts on this is, um,

1262
01:08:40,400 --> 01:08:44,080
Speaker 1: there's I'm just going to quote Gerald Abrams. He uh,

1263
01:08:44,080 --> 01:08:46,439
Speaker 1: he's a barrister who lived in Liverpool at the time.

1264
01:08:46,479 --> 01:08:49,320
Speaker 1: He's written a lot about the Wallace case, and he says,

1265
01:08:49,479 --> 01:08:53,000
Speaker 1: um quote. Journalists have agitated their readers for many years

1266
01:08:53,000 --> 01:08:55,839
Speaker 1: with the question was Wallace guilty? There are three approaches

1267
01:08:55,880 --> 01:08:59,559
Speaker 1: to this question. One Legally, it's academic, there was no

1268
01:08:59,640 --> 01:09:04,320
Speaker 1: evan against him. To personally, his acquaintances, excluding those who

1269
01:09:04,360 --> 01:09:08,160
Speaker 1: revel in the troubles of their quote friends, seemed convinced

1270
01:09:08,160 --> 01:09:11,400
Speaker 1: of his innocence. The author takes the view that to

1271
01:09:11,520 --> 01:09:14,760
Speaker 1: vest Wallace with guilt in the circumstances to credit him

1272
01:09:14,760 --> 01:09:17,360
Speaker 1: with a mental power, a skill and agility, and a

1273
01:09:17,360 --> 01:09:23,120
Speaker 1: cold blooded nervelessness, nerveless efficiency of which he seemed utterly incapable.

1274
01:09:25,240 --> 01:09:29,240
Speaker 1: And three scientifically, it is a much easier hypothesis to

1275
01:09:29,280 --> 01:09:32,439
Speaker 1: assume another person as a murderer whose task would have

1276
01:09:32,520 --> 01:09:37,640
Speaker 1: been easier mental effortless by the principle of simple explanation,

1277
01:09:37,720 --> 01:09:41,920
Speaker 1: Wallace was innocent, unquote. I especially like him saying it's

1278
01:09:41,960 --> 01:09:44,120
Speaker 1: crediting Wallas this with a lot of stuff that he

1279
01:09:44,200 --> 01:09:46,760
Speaker 1: was just not capable of, which is the most most

1280
01:09:46,760 --> 01:09:50,080
Speaker 1: of us, frankly, are not capable of. UM. So, yeah,

1281
01:09:50,280 --> 01:09:53,160
Speaker 1: I think he's entirely correct. I think either that or

1282
01:09:53,200 --> 01:09:57,920
Speaker 1: he's he's a mad genius. Yeah, maybe, but I don't.

1283
01:09:57,960 --> 01:09:59,559
Speaker 1: I just don't think Wallace did it. But I don't

1284
01:09:59,560 --> 01:10:02,760
Speaker 1: know who did well. Again and again, I we said

1285
01:10:02,760 --> 01:10:05,719
Speaker 1: this in the very beginning, because we don't know anything

1286
01:10:05,760 --> 01:10:09,400
Speaker 1: about Julia. I mean, really, there's very little on record

1287
01:10:09,520 --> 01:10:12,840
Speaker 1: that we know about her. We don't know if there

1288
01:10:12,880 --> 01:10:17,960
Speaker 1: was something in her past. They the police were able

1289
01:10:18,000 --> 01:10:21,680
Speaker 1: to rule out. Neither of them had any lovers, you know,

1290
01:10:21,880 --> 01:10:25,759
Speaker 1: neither of them had any debts really that anybody could find.

1291
01:10:26,680 --> 01:10:30,879
Speaker 1: So it seemed unlikely that it was wrapped up in Julia.

1292
01:10:31,080 --> 01:10:34,960
Speaker 1: I guess, but maybe it was the the amount of

1293
01:10:35,120 --> 01:10:40,320
Speaker 1: anger that was in the murder, because it was ethan brutal.

1294
01:10:41,240 --> 01:10:46,439
Speaker 1: It really means that somebody had a personal stake that

1295
01:10:46,520 --> 01:10:49,439
Speaker 1: they were taking out on her, whether it be a

1296
01:10:49,560 --> 01:10:55,479
Speaker 1: past jilted lover or a wrong family member or hell,

1297
01:10:55,560 --> 01:10:57,200
Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe she had a kid and she

1298
01:10:57,320 --> 01:10:59,320
Speaker 1: gave that kid up and that kid tracked her down

1299
01:10:59,320 --> 01:11:00,840
Speaker 1: all these years later her and said, you made me

1300
01:11:00,840 --> 01:11:02,400
Speaker 1: an orphan. I'm going to take it out on you.

1301
01:11:02,840 --> 01:11:04,960
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know what it is, or could

1302
01:11:05,000 --> 01:11:08,760
Speaker 1: be a bazillion things, or there could truly still be nothing. Yeah,

1303
01:11:08,920 --> 01:11:11,559
Speaker 1: it could actually it could actually be somebody who didn't

1304
01:11:11,600 --> 01:11:14,280
Speaker 1: even know her and just a serial killer who just

1305
01:11:14,400 --> 01:11:20,240
Speaker 1: weren't who needed money and he had money. Yeah. Again,

1306
01:11:20,280 --> 01:11:22,280
Speaker 1: maybe this is where Perry comes into. You know, he

1307
01:11:22,400 --> 01:11:24,120
Speaker 1: like he like knows this guy who's a real skuts

1308
01:11:24,160 --> 01:11:26,479
Speaker 1: bag and says, hey, I know these people aren't going

1309
01:11:26,520 --> 01:11:28,879
Speaker 1: to be home, and I know he keeps a buttload

1310
01:11:28,920 --> 01:11:33,639
Speaker 1: of money. You know, then you run into the there.

1311
01:11:33,680 --> 01:11:35,280
Speaker 1: As far as I can tell, there was no sign

1312
01:11:35,360 --> 01:11:38,200
Speaker 1: of a struggle. I've never seen anything that there was

1313
01:11:38,240 --> 01:11:41,879
Speaker 1: a sign of a struggle. And she let the person in. Yeah,

1314
01:11:42,120 --> 01:11:44,920
Speaker 1: so you assume that she knew them and that it

1315
01:11:45,040 --> 01:11:49,000
Speaker 1: started out totally peacefully or at least mildly comfortable, and

1316
01:11:49,040 --> 01:11:51,880
Speaker 1: they surprised her with the hit over the head. Yeah,

1317
01:11:52,080 --> 01:11:54,000
Speaker 1: and that leads to our last series and this this

1318
01:11:54,040 --> 01:11:55,920
Speaker 1: has actually been put out there, which is said, what's

1319
01:11:55,920 --> 01:12:00,200
Speaker 1: the Johnston's Yeah, yeah, which at least one, and it

1320
01:12:00,240 --> 01:12:03,280
Speaker 1: could have been really realistically, it could have been they

1321
01:12:03,320 --> 01:12:07,040
Speaker 1: had a key, they had a key, she knew them.

1322
01:12:07,080 --> 01:12:08,799
Speaker 1: They could have said, we're just going to come around

1323
01:12:08,800 --> 01:12:11,360
Speaker 1: for They would have known about the money. That she

1324
01:12:11,400 --> 01:12:14,000
Speaker 1: could have been cheating with the Johnston I mean, really

1325
01:12:15,280 --> 01:12:18,479
Speaker 1: cheating with one of them, cheating with both of them. Really.

1326
01:12:18,520 --> 01:12:20,799
Speaker 1: I don't know if I wanted to cheat with Julie myself,

1327
01:12:21,000 --> 01:12:22,720
Speaker 1: I don't know if I wouldn't there, but hey, some

1328
01:12:22,720 --> 01:12:26,360
Speaker 1: people are into stuff like that. Yeah, anyway, see you

1329
01:12:26,400 --> 01:12:29,760
Speaker 1: have anything, I don't. This one just it's baffling. It's

1330
01:12:29,800 --> 01:12:33,760
Speaker 1: baffling because of the amount of build as Joe put

1331
01:12:33,760 --> 01:12:39,439
Speaker 1: it's out there, and the total lack of evidence for

1332
01:12:39,560 --> 01:12:41,960
Speaker 1: anything other than the fact that the only thing that

1333
01:12:42,000 --> 01:12:46,760
Speaker 1: we can confirm is that she died, most likely by

1334
01:12:47,160 --> 01:12:50,040
Speaker 1: being beaten to death with the fire poker. The only

1335
01:12:50,080 --> 01:12:53,080
Speaker 1: thing pretty confident that she died by being beaten. But

1336
01:12:53,160 --> 01:12:55,960
Speaker 1: that's really the only only solid fact we have this

1337
01:12:56,320 --> 01:12:59,400
Speaker 1: entire case. Yeah, that's somebody somebody being into death on

1338
01:12:59,520 --> 01:13:02,400
Speaker 1: left with the poker. I'm not sure what the poker

1339
01:13:02,479 --> 01:13:10,599
Speaker 1: was never found, so yeah, but yeah, other than that,

1340
01:13:10,640 --> 01:13:14,879
Speaker 1: I can't say it's uh, you know, it's entirely possible

1341
01:13:14,920 --> 01:13:18,840
Speaker 1: to that somebody set Wallace up. You know, they made

1342
01:13:18,840 --> 01:13:21,760
Speaker 1: the phone call to the chess club deliberately from a

1343
01:13:21,800 --> 01:13:27,320
Speaker 1: phone near his house to to you know, suspicion upon him. Yeah,

1344
01:13:27,360 --> 01:13:29,559
Speaker 1: it's totally possible, although it doesn't seem like he had

1345
01:13:29,600 --> 01:13:33,040
Speaker 1: any really enemies, I mean other than Perry. Yeah, I mean,

1346
01:13:33,160 --> 01:13:35,320
Speaker 1: it could have been somebody trying to create the actually

1347
01:13:35,360 --> 01:13:38,320
Speaker 1: commit the perfect crime. It's just a hobby sort of thing.

1348
01:13:38,400 --> 01:13:45,519
Speaker 1: And so here's what we're Hols and the area. So yeah,

1349
01:13:46,720 --> 01:13:49,320
Speaker 1: but but think about that. I mean, so he makes

1350
01:13:49,360 --> 01:13:51,479
Speaker 1: the phone call, no, I mean that that's gonna it's

1351
01:13:51,520 --> 01:13:53,880
Speaker 1: gonna be recorded. It's going to cast suspicion upon him

1352
01:13:53,880 --> 01:13:57,400
Speaker 1: that he made to call himself, not realizing that Wallace

1353
01:13:57,640 --> 01:13:59,800
Speaker 1: is going to go out there and he's gonna like

1354
01:14:00,120 --> 01:14:04,360
Speaker 1: totally badger everybody sees along the way. I'm not realizing

1355
01:14:04,439 --> 01:14:08,400
Speaker 1: that and picking that. Yeah, I thought, yeah, he was

1356
01:14:08,400 --> 01:14:11,320
Speaker 1: gonna disappear, he murders the wife, he's gonna come back

1357
01:14:11,360 --> 01:14:13,040
Speaker 1: with no alibi, he's going to go off to the

1358
01:14:13,040 --> 01:14:16,080
Speaker 1: pokey and instead he comes back with a great alibi.

1359
01:14:16,880 --> 01:14:21,680
Speaker 1: That's true. Yeah, it's possible. This was a listener's suggestion.

1360
01:14:21,880 --> 01:14:24,200
Speaker 1: Oh that's right. I'll say at the end instead of

1361
01:14:24,240 --> 01:14:27,960
Speaker 1: the beginning, we forgot. I totally forgot. Yeah. Mike b

1362
01:14:28,760 --> 01:14:32,120
Speaker 1: Uh suggested it in like September two thousand and fourteen.

1363
01:14:32,760 --> 01:14:37,120
Speaker 1: It's been a while, yeah, and then the artful Dodger

1364
01:14:37,320 --> 01:14:41,360
Speaker 1: on Reddit also suggested it recently. Um, and I think

1365
01:14:41,360 --> 01:14:44,719
Speaker 1: we've had a couple of there's been a couple over time. Yeah. Um,

1366
01:14:44,760 --> 01:14:47,040
Speaker 1: so thank you guys. If you want to suggest a

1367
01:14:47,080 --> 01:14:51,560
Speaker 1: topic for us, you can do that on our website

1368
01:14:51,920 --> 01:14:54,960
Speaker 1: in the about the show. It's probably the best place

1369
01:14:55,000 --> 01:14:56,839
Speaker 1: to do it, but you can. Well that's where everybody

1370
01:14:56,840 --> 01:14:58,680
Speaker 1: goes to do it. I don't know why, but that's

1371
01:14:58,680 --> 01:15:02,280
Speaker 1: where they go. Yeah. Um. That website is thinking Sideways

1372
01:15:02,280 --> 01:15:05,639
Speaker 1: podcast dot com. You can also stream us there, leave

1373
01:15:05,680 --> 01:15:10,639
Speaker 1: a comment about the show. You can find our links

1374
01:15:10,680 --> 01:15:14,240
Speaker 1: to the PayPal, to the Patreon, and to merch. You

1375
01:15:14,360 --> 01:15:17,040
Speaker 1: are probably listening to us on iTunes. If you are,

1376
01:15:17,240 --> 01:15:21,599
Speaker 1: leave a comment and a rating. Those are helpful to us. Um.

1377
01:15:21,720 --> 01:15:25,479
Speaker 1: If you have serious feedback for us. We prefer an

1378
01:15:25,520 --> 01:15:27,400
Speaker 1: email so we can like talk to you about it

1379
01:15:27,520 --> 01:15:31,000
Speaker 1: and like get understand what you're saying. Um. That email

1380
01:15:31,000 --> 01:15:35,000
Speaker 1: address is Thinking Sideways Podcast at gmail dot com. You

1381
01:15:35,040 --> 01:15:40,479
Speaker 1: can find us on Facebook, you can find us on Twitter,

1382
01:15:41,240 --> 01:15:47,320
Speaker 1: you can find us on reddit, uh, anywhere, pretty much anywhere. Yeah,

1383
01:15:47,360 --> 01:15:51,200
Speaker 1: we're not on Snapchat, we're not on Instagram, we're not

1384
01:15:51,280 --> 01:16:00,600
Speaker 1: on PINTERESTUM, Tinder or grinder. No, No, I don't think so,

1385
01:16:00,840 --> 01:16:09,599
Speaker 1: I'm not. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, we're from. The note

1386
01:16:09,640 --> 01:16:12,880
Speaker 1: on Twitter is we're Thinking Sideways, not Thinking Sideways. And

1387
01:16:12,880 --> 01:16:15,720
Speaker 1: the note on Facebook is, um, the group and the

1388
01:16:15,760 --> 01:16:18,360
Speaker 1: page not friend us, don't friend us. We don't want

1389
01:16:18,360 --> 01:16:21,040
Speaker 1: to be friends with you. I mean, we love you,

1390
01:16:21,200 --> 01:16:24,559
Speaker 1: but but we don't don't do That's that's that's that's

1391
01:16:24,600 --> 01:16:27,040
Speaker 1: even better than being our friend. Yeah, it is. And

1392
01:16:27,080 --> 01:16:29,559
Speaker 1: then um, you can get to the Patreon. If you

1393
01:16:29,800 --> 01:16:32,240
Speaker 1: feel like you want to make a monetary donation to

1394
01:16:32,280 --> 01:16:34,080
Speaker 1: the show, you can do that from the website or

1395
01:16:34,080 --> 01:16:36,639
Speaker 1: you can just go to patreon dot com slash Thinking Sideways.

1396
01:16:36,800 --> 01:16:39,800
Speaker 1: It's where you make a sustaining donation per episode. And

1397
01:16:39,840 --> 01:16:42,640
Speaker 1: we super duper appreciate that because you guys have been

1398
01:16:42,640 --> 01:16:45,519
Speaker 1: really awesome and we'd like to keep that momentum going

1399
01:16:45,640 --> 01:16:50,320
Speaker 1: so we can actually pay for the show entirely instead

1400
01:16:50,360 --> 01:16:54,439
Speaker 1: of us paying for the show. Yeah, prefer that, yeah

1401
01:16:54,560 --> 01:16:59,040
Speaker 1: breaking even my credit card loves it. Oh no, no, no, no,

1402
01:16:59,080 --> 01:17:03,599
Speaker 1: I know what you're getting, fire miles or something like that. Yeah. Anyway, Um,

1403
01:17:03,600 --> 01:17:05,479
Speaker 1: all of that having been said, I think we're gonna

1404
01:17:05,520 --> 01:17:09,280
Speaker 1: get on out of here. Yeah. Yeah, So thanks for listening,

1405
01:17:09,280 --> 01:17:12,400
Speaker 1: and we'll see you next week, folks. Bye bye, bitter guys.

1406
01:17:21,479 --> 01:17:24,080
Speaker 1: I guess we'll hear them next week. We won't see them, yeah,

1407
01:17:24,120 --> 01:17:26,400
Speaker 1: well they'll hear us. Yeah that's true.