WEBVTT - From the Vault: Satanic Panic 0:00:05.760 --> 0:00:07.920 Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name 0:00:07.960 --> 0:00:11.080 is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. And it's Saturday, 0:00:11.119 --> 0:00:13.440 time for a vault episode. And this is gonna be 0:00:13.520 --> 0:00:17.680 one that you and Christian did way back in right, yeah, April. 0:00:18.720 --> 0:00:20.880 This was the first episode of Stuff to Blow Your 0:00:20.880 --> 0:00:23.920 Mind that I recorded with Christian. Uh, and it's on 0:00:24.120 --> 0:00:26.639 Satanic panic. I figured that's appropriate. We're getting into the 0:00:26.640 --> 0:00:30.600 holidays here. Uh, let's start thinking about moral panics and 0:00:30.760 --> 0:00:33.199 uh and the War on Christmas. And they have the 0:00:33.240 --> 0:00:35.479 War on Christmas. It's a perfect time to consider Satanic 0:00:35.520 --> 0:00:39.520 panic and its legacy in human culture. The Satanic panic 0:00:39.680 --> 0:00:42.440 is a fascinating subject. This is one of the ones 0:00:42.520 --> 0:00:44.200 you did with Christian that I was kind of jealous 0:00:44.200 --> 0:00:47.080 I didn't get to do because it's so interesting. It's 0:00:47.120 --> 0:00:49.839 so I mean, there's a lot of really horrifying elements 0:00:49.840 --> 0:00:52.760 to it, but it's also just so rich with with 0:00:52.880 --> 0:00:56.639 interesting psychological tidbits. Why do these things happen? So I'm 0:00:56.640 --> 0:00:58.600 glad you guys got to cover it. And Uh, I'm 0:00:58.640 --> 0:01:01.040 I'm excited for you. Listens right now, who are about 0:01:01.080 --> 0:01:03.680 to get to hear it? All Right, let's let's enter 0:01:03.720 --> 0:01:10.520 the vault. Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from 0:01:10.520 --> 0:01:18.680 how Stuff Works dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to 0:01:18.680 --> 0:01:20.759 Blow your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb. Hey, I'm 0:01:20.800 --> 0:01:24.120 Christian Seger guest toasting Yes Christians. Feeling in for Julie. 0:01:24.240 --> 0:01:26.800 She's on a vacation this week, and uh, we took 0:01:26.800 --> 0:01:30.640 this opportunity to dive into a couple of darker topics. 0:01:31.040 --> 0:01:34.479 We talked about Gromore's and in this episode we're talking 0:01:34.520 --> 0:01:38.880 about a little thing called Satanic panic. And uh, I 0:01:38.920 --> 0:01:42.199 feel I feel like depending on where our listeners are 0:01:43.040 --> 0:01:47.160 in terms of of age and the geographical location, they're 0:01:47.160 --> 0:01:51.280 gonna have varying levels of of intersection with this topic. 0:01:51.960 --> 0:01:56.160 Based on our previous conversations, I believe we both have 0:01:57.000 --> 0:02:00.600 varying degrees of contact with the Satanic panic of the 0:02:01.160 --> 0:02:04.640 nineteen eighties, especially a time in which there was a 0:02:04.640 --> 0:02:08.680 lot of moral panic and outrage over the perceived threat 0:02:09.280 --> 0:02:13.080 of secret Satanic cults, which sounds crazy. It may sound 0:02:13.080 --> 0:02:17.399 crazy to you, but this was a very real atmosphere. Yeah, 0:02:17.440 --> 0:02:20.600 I mean, the peak of Satanic panic was between nineteen 0:02:20.639 --> 0:02:23.400 eighty five and around nineteen two. Although I think you 0:02:23.400 --> 0:02:25.959 can probably trace it even a little further back into 0:02:26.040 --> 0:02:31.760 the late seventies probably, and that for me, I'm thirty seven, 0:02:31.840 --> 0:02:34.720 I'm about to be thirty eight, So I grew up 0:02:34.960 --> 0:02:36.919 that was the period of time when I was growing up. 0:02:36.960 --> 0:02:39.880 You know, Okay, well we're the same age, so okay, yeah, 0:02:40.000 --> 0:02:44.280 so so yeah, Like I was in elementary school while 0:02:44.480 --> 0:02:46.760 this was going on, and it was a it was 0:02:46.800 --> 0:02:50.560 something that my parents weren't necessarily as afraid of it, 0:02:50.600 --> 0:02:53.639 but I had friends whose parents were afraid of it. Uh, 0:02:53.720 --> 0:02:56.760 and then um, we talked about this off air. But 0:02:56.840 --> 0:02:59.480 I had an experience where for a year I had 0:02:59.520 --> 0:03:03.200 to go to a private religious school and there was 0:03:03.280 --> 0:03:06.680 a lot of satanic panic within this school, and in 0:03:06.720 --> 0:03:10.800 particular about demon possession and being the need to be 0:03:10.880 --> 0:03:14.359 exercised or even Uh. We had a classmate who was 0:03:14.440 --> 0:03:17.280 ostracized by our teacher because he was purported to be 0:03:17.280 --> 0:03:20.880 possessed by the devil. Oh wow, I mean I I 0:03:20.919 --> 0:03:23.400 definitely grew up as well in a in a family 0:03:23.480 --> 0:03:25.880 environment where a lot of there wasn't a lot of 0:03:25.880 --> 0:03:28.920 of of emphasis on satanic panic. It wasn't really a 0:03:29.000 --> 0:03:32.000 thing in my family. But would go to church and 0:03:32.080 --> 0:03:34.560 you would you would hear about the thread or read 0:03:34.600 --> 0:03:37.800 about the Thread, and various youth of publications that were 0:03:38.080 --> 0:03:40.040 that were aimed at us about the dangers of say, 0:03:40.080 --> 0:03:44.640 horror literature, about of course heavy metal music and um 0:03:45.520 --> 0:03:49.440 and then there were I remember also having having friends 0:03:49.480 --> 0:03:52.360 who were really heavily involved in our youth group and 0:03:52.960 --> 0:03:54.920 being at a youth coffee house and being asked to 0:03:54.960 --> 0:03:58.120 come into a back room to sit in on an exorcism. Uh. 0:03:58.200 --> 0:04:01.080 You know, it was this whole atmosphere, uh, you know, 0:04:01.080 --> 0:04:05.960 there's especially attractive to deteens in which these these demonic 0:04:06.000 --> 0:04:09.440 forces were real. There was this there's this war between 0:04:09.520 --> 0:04:11.920 the forces of good and the forces of evil and 0:04:11.960 --> 0:04:16.120 your soul, your mind is kind of the battle ground. Yeah, 0:04:16.279 --> 0:04:20.919 and it's satanic panic are also you know what what 0:04:21.320 --> 0:04:26.560 the claimed practices are generally termed under the phrase satanic 0:04:26.680 --> 0:04:30.160 ritual abuse UM or s r A. For sure, we 0:04:30.240 --> 0:04:33.280 might say that throughout the podcast. But there there was 0:04:33.320 --> 0:04:39.280 this mm hmmm uh sort of chaos about the general 0:04:39.360 --> 0:04:42.279 chaos about growing up as a human being in the world, 0:04:42.360 --> 0:04:45.360 especially as an adolescent, when you're trying to figure things out, 0:04:45.360 --> 0:04:47.320 you're trying to make sense of the world, and then 0:04:47.360 --> 0:04:51.040 along comes this narrative that's basically like you are at 0:04:51.080 --> 0:04:55.159 the center of this and either um, these underground mysterious 0:04:55.240 --> 0:04:59.520 heavy metal cults can transform your soul into into darkness 0:04:59.720 --> 0:05:03.600 or you can be guarded and uh, you know, come 0:05:03.600 --> 0:05:07.039 out on the side of righteousness. Uh. And it you know, 0:05:07.120 --> 0:05:12.719 it sounds silly, it sounds very um black and white. Um, 0:05:12.760 --> 0:05:15.760 but yeah, having lived through it, like it's especially like 0:05:15.800 --> 0:05:17.560 going back and then doing the research on this and 0:05:17.600 --> 0:05:20.640 being like, oh, yeah, I remember when that happened. And 0:05:20.680 --> 0:05:23.680 but but but my little ten year old brain, you know, 0:05:24.560 --> 0:05:27.960 seven couldn't couldn't exactly make sense of it, you know. 0:05:28.800 --> 0:05:34.599 Uh yeah, It's just some fascinating stuff. But largely Satanic 0:05:34.600 --> 0:05:40.880 panic was a combination of m that there was this 0:05:41.000 --> 0:05:46.080 idea of repressed memories being brought back, and a lot 0:05:46.120 --> 0:05:50.400 of these repressed memories were supposedly of interactions or torture 0:05:50.520 --> 0:05:55.880 within satanic underground organizations, their secret organizations that are worshiping 0:05:55.920 --> 0:05:59.240 the devil and it's part of their rights. They are 0:05:59.640 --> 0:06:03.960 abuse using, often sexually, very young children, and that that 0:06:04.160 --> 0:06:06.599 is sort of where the moral panic comes in. That 0:06:06.680 --> 0:06:11.200 gets everyone involved, at least in the children. Yeah, the Again, 0:06:11.240 --> 0:06:13.479 the this is kind of ironic, as I wrote a 0:06:13.480 --> 0:06:15.760 comic book called this but think of the children, as 0:06:16.000 --> 0:06:19.760 you always they always comes back to these moral panics, 0:06:19.839 --> 0:06:22.560 is that something is going wrong with the children. And 0:06:22.600 --> 0:06:25.320 in this particular case, it was actually true in a 0:06:25.360 --> 0:06:27.560 lot of these incidents that there were children that were 0:06:27.560 --> 0:06:31.280 being physically abused and sexually abused. But there has not 0:06:31.520 --> 0:06:35.680 been by and large evidence that there ever was an 0:06:35.760 --> 0:06:40.520 underground Satanic network or cult that was operating and performing 0:06:40.560 --> 0:06:44.200 these these acts. Yeah, I mean, certainly there are there 0:06:44.200 --> 0:06:47.599 their individuals out there that self identify as Satanist, but 0:06:47.760 --> 0:06:52.240 Satanist of the type that are vilified in Satanic panic 0:06:52.880 --> 0:06:56.240 and in this movement. They never existed, and that's something 0:06:56.279 --> 0:06:57.640 that's key to deep in mind. But that's one of 0:06:57.680 --> 0:07:00.599 the things that's so fascinating about it is that there 0:07:00.760 --> 0:07:05.039 is no actual religious group that this is based around. 0:07:05.040 --> 0:07:09.520 It's all based on on hearsay and myth making and fear. Yeah, 0:07:09.560 --> 0:07:13.760 and it's um that myth making largely came out of 0:07:13.800 --> 0:07:17.320 media sensationalism in the eighties too, And in particular, there 0:07:17.400 --> 0:07:22.560 was one hallmark that we both watched and kind of 0:07:22.640 --> 0:07:25.000 kind of went back to which was Horaldo Rivera and 0:07:25.920 --> 0:07:30.760 had uh an expose that was called awhere is it 0:07:31.480 --> 0:07:36.680 the title of this thing? Uh Devil Worship exposing Satan's 0:07:36.760 --> 0:07:41.000 underground And it was this two hour talk show that 0:07:41.040 --> 0:07:44.680 he did, interspersed with various you know, on the scene 0:07:44.720 --> 0:07:48.560 reports of Heraldo talking to victims of Satanic ritual abuse. 0:07:49.280 --> 0:07:51.239 But then in the studio he was talking to Ozzy 0:07:51.320 --> 0:07:55.880 Osbourne via satellite, and then he had um a Catholic 0:07:55.920 --> 0:07:59.559 priest on stage, and he had members of the Church 0:07:59.560 --> 0:08:02.040 of St Anton LaVey's Church of Satan, not to be 0:08:02.160 --> 0:08:05.800 confused with the Satanic Panic Satanist cults that we are 0:08:05.800 --> 0:08:09.680 supposedly operating. Uh FBI agents were in the room or 0:08:09.720 --> 0:08:14.200 on stage who were supposedly, you know, tracking down these 0:08:14.280 --> 0:08:20.520 underground cults. It rewatching it. I expected to be very skeptical, 0:08:21.320 --> 0:08:25.200 and instead I found myself saying, Okay, I know about this. 0:08:25.400 --> 0:08:29.720 I know that this is largely a a moral hysteria 0:08:29.920 --> 0:08:33.840 that happened thirty years ago, but it's compelling. I could 0:08:33.840 --> 0:08:36.280 see why people fell for it at the time, and 0:08:36.320 --> 0:08:40.960 we're you know, deeply concerned. Um so yeah, it's just 0:08:41.000 --> 0:08:45.120 really interesting. But so ultimately Satanic ritual abuse falls under 0:08:45.640 --> 0:08:48.640 the following claimed practices that were being acted out by 0:08:48.640 --> 0:08:53.920 these groups. Supposedly, Uh, there was human sacrifice, sexual depravity 0:08:54.240 --> 0:08:57.440 make of that what you will, or perversion, uh, and 0:08:57.559 --> 0:09:01.480 that that these were actual statistics the law enforcement officials 0:09:01.480 --> 0:09:04.920 were throwing out fifty thousand or more people were dying 0:09:05.080 --> 0:09:08.280 a year in the United States of America from Satanic 0:09:08.320 --> 0:09:13.280 ritual abuse supposedly, and uh, during their torture or murders, 0:09:13.320 --> 0:09:17.040 they were forced to consume urine or feces or blood 0:09:17.559 --> 0:09:20.160 and there's just you know, basically anything that you can 0:09:20.160 --> 0:09:23.920 think of as being like depraved acts were placed upon 0:09:24.800 --> 0:09:29.440 uh at the at the foot of these mythological groups. 0:09:29.480 --> 0:09:31.440 I mean, I don't know if mythological is the right 0:09:31.520 --> 0:09:37.120 term to use here, but they were fantastic, Yeah, And 0:09:37.160 --> 0:09:41.000 it's it's interesting when you start looking back, um through history, 0:09:41.160 --> 0:09:43.520 like how we got to this point, because I kind 0:09:43.520 --> 0:09:47.280 of think even in terms of of a bonfire, right, um, 0:09:47.320 --> 0:09:49.480 in which you have all this kindling that's built up 0:09:49.800 --> 0:09:51.480 and it gets it's to the point where you all 0:09:51.520 --> 0:09:53.920 you need is that additional spark to to really just 0:09:54.000 --> 0:09:57.559 send it ablaze, and the spark being of course, threats threat, 0:09:58.040 --> 0:10:00.720 a threat to the children, or you know, a threat 0:10:00.760 --> 0:10:04.440 to you know, a real personal threat to yourself. Now, 0:10:04.480 --> 0:10:06.480 if you go back far enough in time, you'll find 0:10:06.520 --> 0:10:10.960 plenty of accounts of for instance, blood libel fourteen seventy 0:10:11.000 --> 0:10:14.280 five assignment of Prent blood Libel, in which an entire 0:10:14.360 --> 0:10:16.559 Jewish community was tortured over the death of a two 0:10:16.600 --> 0:10:19.559 year old Christian boy. There, you know, the claim being 0:10:19.640 --> 0:10:22.840 that there was a ritual murder of the child. Um. 0:10:23.440 --> 0:10:26.240 You can you can find parallels and uh in which 0:10:26.320 --> 0:10:30.480 hunts and which person persecutions throughout time. But when you're 0:10:30.520 --> 0:10:35.000 looking particularly at the twentieth century, UM, there's a historian 0:10:35.000 --> 0:10:37.439 by the name of Philip Jenkins who wrote a fabulous 0:10:37.480 --> 0:10:40.160 piece called Satanism and Ritual Abuse. And this is collected 0:10:40.200 --> 0:10:43.840 in uh the Oxford Handbook of New Religious Movements. I 0:10:43.840 --> 0:10:48.160 believe it's one of the last chapters in the book. UM. Yeah, 0:10:48.200 --> 0:10:50.600 it's really interesting piece, and I think it is one 0:10:50.640 --> 0:10:52.400 of the best things that I've read that sort of 0:10:52.520 --> 0:10:56.840 encapsulates the whole hysteria of the time and sort of 0:10:56.880 --> 0:11:00.840 points to there being a similar theme eames within the 0:11:00.840 --> 0:11:06.800 Satanic panic hysteria to the rhetorical themes that we're going 0:11:06.840 --> 0:11:10.120 on with fringe religions throughout history too. You know, there's 0:11:10.160 --> 0:11:13.000 an empty emphasis on protecting endangered children, as we already 0:11:13.000 --> 0:11:16.280 talked about, but there's also this idea that religions are 0:11:16.320 --> 0:11:21.480 shaped by mass media. Yeah indeed, and um and yeah, 0:11:21.480 --> 0:11:23.360 it's the only this is the only chapter in the 0:11:23.360 --> 0:11:26.520 book that deals with a non existent religion. Like there's 0:11:26.520 --> 0:11:29.160 all deal with with actual faiths and splinter groups, but 0:11:29.440 --> 0:11:31.680 this is one, as we pointed out, never actually exists. 0:11:32.000 --> 0:11:35.520 Now you have culturally resonant concepts of the Black Mass, 0:11:35.640 --> 0:11:40.000 ritual magic, uh, the Witches, Sabbath all kind of merged 0:11:40.040 --> 0:11:43.080 together and and just just setting back there in the 0:11:43.080 --> 0:11:47.440 public consciousness. On on top of that, you have you 0:11:47.480 --> 0:11:51.840 have nineteen fourteen, you have tales of Alistair Crawley's Black 0:11:51.880 --> 0:11:55.200 Masses and Exotic London, uh that were published. They were 0:11:55.200 --> 0:11:58.160 published stories about this in the New York World. Uh. 0:11:58.200 --> 0:12:00.199 So already you have this idea that there are there 0:12:00.200 --> 0:12:02.319 are people out there in the world that are engaging 0:12:02.360 --> 0:12:06.679 in these dark rights. Uh. You have ninety seven Herbert 0:12:06.720 --> 0:12:10.760 Gorman's uh tale The Place called Dagon, which is a 0:12:10.800 --> 0:12:15.520 work of fiction about Satanist or Satanist like cults that 0:12:15.559 --> 0:12:18.920 were descended from survivors of Salem. Yeah, this was a 0:12:19.000 --> 0:12:23.880 fascinating find for me in the research because I am 0:12:23.920 --> 0:12:26.840 a fan of weird fiction. I'm a fan of horror fiction, 0:12:27.040 --> 0:12:29.400 and obviously a lot of that traces back to HP 0:12:29.520 --> 0:12:33.880 Lovecraft's work, and HP Lovecraft was apparently influenced by this book, 0:12:33.920 --> 0:12:36.040 and it's something that I had never heard of before. 0:12:36.160 --> 0:12:39.199 I mean, or if I did, it just never resonated 0:12:39.240 --> 0:12:41.920 with me. Yes, same here he because he apparently mentions 0:12:41.920 --> 0:12:44.400 it in Supernatural Horror and Literature, which I've read, but 0:12:44.720 --> 0:12:47.440 he throws out a lot of authors and titles that, 0:12:47.559 --> 0:12:49.280 especially the modern reader is not going to be that 0:12:49.280 --> 0:12:53.120 connected with. But apparently it's a big influence on on Lovecraft, Block, 0:12:53.840 --> 0:12:58.800 Henry Cuttner, Dennis Wheatley, various other individuals who who definitely 0:12:58.840 --> 0:13:02.280 resonated at the time and affected the weird fiction world 0:13:02.280 --> 0:13:05.880 and then the larger pulp pop culture world to emerge 0:13:05.880 --> 0:13:08.160 from it. Yeah. And one of Jenkins arguments in this 0:13:08.280 --> 0:13:11.720 piece is that you can trace almost all the elements 0:13:11.760 --> 0:13:14.240 of the nineteen eighties Satanic panic back to this nine 0:13:14.800 --> 0:13:17.880 seven story, the place called Dagon, which ultimately you know, 0:13:17.880 --> 0:13:20.560 it's summarizes being like, it's a thriller that's set in 0:13:20.600 --> 0:13:24.400 western Massachusetts, which is where I'm originally from. Uh, and 0:13:24.559 --> 0:13:28.200 that descendants from Salem, Massachusetts, which if if you don't know, 0:13:28.240 --> 0:13:32.079 Salem is on the east coast of Massachusetts. Uh, practice 0:13:32.120 --> 0:13:35.360 the you know, which is famous for the witch trials 0:13:35.400 --> 0:13:38.679 and for for witchcraft. These descendants moved out to Western 0:13:38.679 --> 0:13:43.120 mass and essentially we're performing the same Satanic rituals and 0:13:43.120 --> 0:13:46.839 and uh, you know, usage of it actually ties back 0:13:46.880 --> 0:13:48.679 to what we talked about in a in a previous 0:13:48.679 --> 0:13:52.480 podcast about grimoires. The the idea of this sort of 0:13:53.679 --> 0:13:57.640 ritual magic being used and in these texts being used 0:13:57.640 --> 0:14:01.240 to perform it, it's energing. Kins points out that by 0:14:01.280 --> 0:14:05.319 the nineteen thirties, uh, the roots were already there fictionally, 0:14:05.720 --> 0:14:08.480 but you also saw a few instances here and there 0:14:08.640 --> 0:14:12.040 of law enforcement actually beginning to at least entertain the 0:14:12.080 --> 0:14:17.240 possibility of sacrificial cult activities and in some crimes. Yeah. 0:14:17.360 --> 0:14:19.920 I think that that's one of the really interesting things 0:14:19.920 --> 0:14:23.680 that probably helped popularize it too, right, is that, um, 0:14:24.240 --> 0:14:27.360 these various law enforcement officials, and I don't think that 0:14:27.400 --> 0:14:31.080 they necessarily had malicious intent. They probably thought that they 0:14:31.120 --> 0:14:34.120 were they had come upon, you know, actual leads in 0:14:34.160 --> 0:14:36.520 these stories. I mean, you know what I kept thinking 0:14:36.600 --> 0:14:38.640 of when I was reading this stuff was True Detective, 0:14:38.760 --> 0:14:40.560 the first season of True Detective, and I was like, 0:14:40.560 --> 0:14:42.560 you could look at the first season of True Detective 0:14:43.000 --> 0:14:48.240 as being about, uh, these misguided uh police officers who 0:14:48.360 --> 0:14:52.200 think that there's a secret uh ritualistic cult somewhere that's 0:14:52.320 --> 0:14:55.840 you know, running things and abusing children, which which ultimately, 0:14:56.000 --> 0:14:58.560 you know, that's that's what that fictional story is about. 0:14:58.600 --> 0:15:02.360 But ultimately that was the same narrative that these FBI 0:15:02.440 --> 0:15:05.640 agents or police officers or whomever were, you know, kind 0:15:05.640 --> 0:15:09.440 of on the hunt because the thought thought was going on, 0:15:09.600 --> 0:15:12.920 they they wanted to be doing their jobs basically, Yeah, 0:15:12.960 --> 0:15:15.200 because I mean, in one hand, you have this fictional world, 0:15:15.240 --> 0:15:19.080 but then you have in these fictional accounts of Satanic rights. 0:15:19.720 --> 0:15:21.480 But then you also have, you know, in the back 0:15:21.520 --> 0:15:25.040 of everyone's mind this idea that black Mass and ritual mass, 0:15:25.320 --> 0:15:29.000 magic and the witches Sabbath was real. You have these stories, 0:15:29.280 --> 0:15:32.120 uh that that you're you're reading about when in which 0:15:32.160 --> 0:15:35.800 there are people that are self identifying as Satanist. For instance, Uh, 0:15:35.960 --> 0:15:38.960 nineteen sixty six, that's the when Anton LaVey founded the 0:15:39.000 --> 0:15:41.880 Church of Satan, and obviously that makes the that makes 0:15:41.920 --> 0:15:45.160 the media rounds. People are outraged about that, even though 0:15:45.680 --> 0:15:50.600 at heart, um LaVey's Satanism was really more grounded in 0:15:51.600 --> 0:15:55.600 h to a certain extent, satire and also cultural commentary 0:15:55.720 --> 0:15:59.480 and as well as sort of Carney high jinks and fun. Yeah. 0:15:59.520 --> 0:16:02.680 I think this is one of the really important distinctions 0:16:02.720 --> 0:16:04.800 that we should make here in the podcast so that 0:16:04.840 --> 0:16:08.320 there isn't confusion for the listeners, is that the Anton 0:16:08.480 --> 0:16:16.840 Lavay Church of Satan is UH an entirely different philosophy organization. 0:16:16.920 --> 0:16:20.440 They refer to themselves as a religion. Uh, then what 0:16:20.520 --> 0:16:25.200 was even being imagined as these underground Satanic cults? And 0:16:25.640 --> 0:16:27.920 to sort of summarize it, I'm not I'm not the 0:16:27.960 --> 0:16:33.480 best at Anton LaVey uh philosophy, but my takeaway from 0:16:33.480 --> 0:16:36.160 it is that ultimately it was just about a philosophy 0:16:36.200 --> 0:16:40.280 of individualism and that Lave's thing was that each individual 0:16:40.280 --> 0:16:43.760 as their own God. And so they used quote unquote 0:16:43.880 --> 0:16:49.640 Satan as a metaphorical expression right of of having pride 0:16:49.680 --> 0:16:55.160 in yourself and being enlightened because you were your own god. Uh. 0:16:55.200 --> 0:16:59.000 And it was ultimately about and they they refer to 0:16:59.080 --> 0:17:03.520 this in the Hurrah, those special rational self interest. But 0:17:03.600 --> 0:17:06.600 you're right, it was very theatrical and it had like 0:17:06.680 --> 0:17:09.600 elements of data is um to it. I guess that 0:17:09.800 --> 0:17:13.160 this performance where like love a dresses up in these 0:17:13.280 --> 0:17:16.880 robes and has you know, his his eyebrows waxed so 0:17:16.920 --> 0:17:20.159 that they look villainous. You know, he was playing up 0:17:20.200 --> 0:17:24.119 to it, and he was using terms like Church of 0:17:24.160 --> 0:17:27.439 Satan or Book of Satan in order to provoke people. 0:17:28.040 --> 0:17:33.000 But then they were sort of appropriated again, uh, for 0:17:33.040 --> 0:17:36.679 this this panic about Satanic ritual abuse, and we're often conflated. 0:17:36.880 --> 0:17:39.720 It's really fascinating when you watch that Heraldo special to 0:17:39.880 --> 0:17:42.280 see members of of his church. I think at the 0:17:42.359 --> 0:17:44.960 time love was dead, but like his daughter and another 0:17:45.040 --> 0:17:46.760 member of his church who at the time was an 0:17:46.880 --> 0:17:52.640 army colonel. We're on stage and answering Horaldo's questions, basically 0:17:52.640 --> 0:17:54.560 trying to say, you know what we're talking about here, 0:17:54.560 --> 0:17:57.760 that they're completely two separate things. This, you know, Church 0:17:57.800 --> 0:18:03.680 of Satan is a ironic formance philosophy piece essentially, uh. 0:18:03.720 --> 0:18:10.160 Whereas like the the accusations of ritual abuse had nothing 0:18:10.200 --> 0:18:12.320 to do with them, right. It's it is interesting that 0:18:12.359 --> 0:18:14.800 they were kind of dude to a certain extent. They 0:18:14.840 --> 0:18:18.480 were riding the wave of of the the the sort 0:18:18.480 --> 0:18:22.439 of Satanic culture, if you will, but then also end 0:18:22.560 --> 0:18:26.200 up falling falling into the trap of satanic panic as well, 0:18:26.280 --> 0:18:28.960 because you had, of course satanic elements in rock music, 0:18:29.760 --> 0:18:34.080 you had satanic exploitation cinema that you know, really came 0:18:34.080 --> 0:18:37.840 into its own, especially in the nineties seventies. Um. And 0:18:37.880 --> 0:18:39.679 then on the other side, and do you also have 0:18:40.119 --> 0:18:44.160 some real life stuff that's happening, uh that that either 0:18:44.359 --> 0:18:51.200 has overt shades of Satanic culture to it or some 0:18:51.200 --> 0:18:54.159 some you know, more subliminal content, or even just media 0:18:54.280 --> 0:18:58.200 shades cast on it, such as Charles Manson, right right. Yeah, 0:18:58.240 --> 0:19:03.160 So Charles Manson obviously, you know, associated himself with quote 0:19:03.200 --> 0:19:07.399 the Devil or Satan, even in a looser fashion, I 0:19:07.400 --> 0:19:10.440 would say that Anton Leavey did. And again I suspect 0:19:10.480 --> 0:19:14.119 Charles Manson. For Charles Manson, who was largely theatrical purposes, 0:19:14.840 --> 0:19:16.400 I believe that he had a quote where he said, 0:19:16.400 --> 0:19:18.159 Satan and Christ will come together at the end of 0:19:18.160 --> 0:19:21.320 the world to judge humanity, and he is actually in 0:19:21.320 --> 0:19:23.919 that Haraldo special he had I think Haraldo had done 0:19:23.960 --> 0:19:26.560 like a previous special year earlier on Murder where he'd 0:19:26.600 --> 0:19:29.159 gone and visited Charles Manson interviewed him and he's like 0:19:30.320 --> 0:19:34.720 he can't even like gather any kind of coherence from 0:19:34.960 --> 0:19:37.960 their conversation because Manson is just rambling the whole time. 0:19:38.440 --> 0:19:40.880 But uh, but Haraldo is able to kind of take 0:19:40.920 --> 0:19:45.240 that and manipulate it through edits and footage to seem 0:19:45.280 --> 0:19:48.479 like he's at the heart of the Satanic ritual abuse. 0:19:49.280 --> 0:19:52.640 And in around ninety seven you see child abuse really 0:19:52.640 --> 0:19:56.320 becoming a trending topic in the media with years of 0:19:56.440 --> 0:19:59.760 media expose. Is to follow on child murder, child or 0:19:59.800 --> 0:20:02.040 not to be kidnapping very much, the you know the 0:20:02.080 --> 0:20:08.520 stranger danger, elements of of moral panic um that that really, 0:20:08.560 --> 0:20:12.320 I mean existed before the Satanic panic and survived well 0:20:12.359 --> 0:20:15.080 after cannoones to survive in many many ways. Yeah, And 0:20:15.119 --> 0:20:17.960 I mean, you know, it's understandable now to look back 0:20:18.000 --> 0:20:20.720 on it and to see why parents are probably terrified 0:20:20.720 --> 0:20:23.320 at the time. You see real life things like the 0:20:23.680 --> 0:20:28.720 Jonestown incident happened, where there's a massacre that included many 0:20:28.800 --> 0:20:32.199 children that were killed by a cultist activity, and so 0:20:32.280 --> 0:20:34.679 that really takes on a prominent role in the media 0:20:34.760 --> 0:20:38.040 coverage of threats to children, and in this case, religiously 0:20:38.359 --> 0:20:41.280 themed threats to children. Uh. Then of course you have 0:20:41.359 --> 0:20:45.400 you have other murderers who end up taking elements from 0:20:45.400 --> 0:20:48.600 this moral outrage and incorporating it, incorporating it into their 0:20:49.040 --> 0:20:52.600 their crimes, or at least there uh the way they 0:20:52.680 --> 0:20:56.399 end up talking about their crimes after the fact. Richard Ramires, 0:20:56.440 --> 0:21:01.600 the night stalker murderer between of eighty five, Um, yeah, 0:21:01.600 --> 0:21:03.960 he was. He was certainly more overt in it than 0:21:04.280 --> 0:21:08.439 Charles Manson. He would mention Satan during his crimes. His 0:21:08.520 --> 0:21:11.840 first court appearance, he shows up with a pentagram drawing 0:21:11.920 --> 0:21:14.800 on his hand and he yells Hail Satan. Uh. And 0:21:14.840 --> 0:21:17.000 of course that's just that just throws more kindling on 0:21:17.000 --> 0:21:20.200 the fire, this idea that there there's a danger here 0:21:20.280 --> 0:21:23.439 with with the with satanic individuals and they want to 0:21:23.520 --> 0:21:26.880 hurt us. And then there's this there's a danger president 0:21:26.960 --> 0:21:32.040 culture for our children. Yeah, sort of that behind the scenes, 0:21:32.320 --> 0:21:36.120 that there there's a Richard Ramirez or a Charles Manson. Uh, 0:21:36.800 --> 0:21:39.520 you know, they could be anywhere. Basically, it's it's sort 0:21:39.520 --> 0:21:42.040 of an invasion of the body snatchers all over again. 0:21:42.080 --> 0:21:44.800 You know. It's this idea that anybody could be part 0:21:44.800 --> 0:21:49.600 of these networks, anybody, uh could lure your children into 0:21:49.720 --> 0:21:54.480 danger or you, uh, and that you should be on 0:21:54.640 --> 0:21:58.840 heightened alert at all times. This explains a lot about 0:21:58.960 --> 0:22:02.879 me as an adult, having grown up in that period. 0:22:02.880 --> 0:22:05.439 I'm like, oh, yeah, now I understand why that was 0:22:05.480 --> 0:22:08.919 so hammered into my head. You know, don't accept candy 0:22:09.000 --> 0:22:12.639 from strangers that one, or like the old Is this 0:22:12.680 --> 0:22:14.520 an old wives tail or not? I don't know about 0:22:14.560 --> 0:22:16.840 a girl scout cookies with needles in them? Do you 0:22:16.880 --> 0:22:18.560 remember that? I never heard that one. Of course, I 0:22:18.560 --> 0:22:23.040 always heard the the the trick or treating uh story. 0:22:23.040 --> 0:22:24.560 You know that you know you need to be careful 0:22:24.840 --> 0:22:27.000 because there might be razor blades in the apple. Yeah. 0:22:27.080 --> 0:22:29.440 We used to have to um after we would trick 0:22:29.480 --> 0:22:31.360 or true to bring all the candy home, and if 0:22:31.400 --> 0:22:33.280 it was big enough to have a razor blade in it, 0:22:33.440 --> 0:22:36.000 my my parents would, you know, break it down into 0:22:36.000 --> 0:22:39.200 smaller pieces to make sure it was safe. You gotta 0:22:39.240 --> 0:22:41.160 be you gotta be careful. I mean there was when 0:22:41.160 --> 0:22:43.040 I was growing up, there was one house in the 0:22:43.080 --> 0:22:46.280 neighborhood where the guy would put um razor blades in 0:22:46.280 --> 0:22:49.280 the candied apples every year. But they were really good 0:22:49.320 --> 0:22:53.040 candied apples, so nobody said. So you just kind of 0:22:53.080 --> 0:22:55.520 ignore it because if you knew what's in there, you 0:22:55.600 --> 0:22:57.760 just know to take it out and enjoy the treat. Yeah, 0:22:57.800 --> 0:23:09.520 it's part of its part of the experience, another experience. 0:23:09.560 --> 0:23:13.240 Another activity that's often thrown into the the the into 0:23:13.280 --> 0:23:17.360 the Satanic Panic culture, of course, is Dungeons and Dragons. Um. 0:23:17.400 --> 0:23:20.880 I specifically remember getting into Dungeons and Dragons, and this 0:23:20.920 --> 0:23:24.480 is in the nineties, so this was after the Satanic 0:23:24.480 --> 0:23:27.239 Panic had died away for the most part, but I 0:23:27.280 --> 0:23:30.960 still received, uh, I think a chick list. What is 0:23:31.000 --> 0:23:34.560 it a chick pamphlet? Oh? Yeah, jack chick track. Yeah, 0:23:34.600 --> 0:23:36.879 I received it as part of a birthday present from 0:23:36.880 --> 0:23:40.240 an ant one year anti Dungeons and dragons. Really. Oh, 0:23:40.280 --> 0:23:42.800 that's fascinating. So so for listeners who don't know, a 0:23:42.880 --> 0:23:47.600 chick track is a very small comic book that is 0:23:48.040 --> 0:23:53.880 uh usually like a fundamentally Christian in nature um warning 0:23:53.920 --> 0:23:56.280 about the perils of pop culture and how they can 0:23:56.359 --> 0:23:59.920 draw you into Uh. No, I don't know in a 0:24:00.000 --> 0:24:02.960