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Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name

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Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. And it's Saturday,

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Speaker 1: time for a vault episode. And this is gonna be

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Speaker 1: one that you and Christian did way back in right, yeah, April.

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Speaker 1: This was the first episode of Stuff to Blow Your

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Speaker 1: Mind that I recorded with Christian. Uh, and it's on

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Speaker 1: Satanic panic. I figured that's appropriate. We're getting into the

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Speaker 1: holidays here. Uh, let's start thinking about moral panics and

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Speaker 1: uh and the War on Christmas. And they have the

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Speaker 1: War on Christmas. It's a perfect time to consider Satanic

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Speaker 1: panic and its legacy in human culture. The Satanic panic

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Speaker 1: is a fascinating subject. This is one of the ones

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Speaker 1: you did with Christian that I was kind of jealous

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Speaker 1: I didn't get to do because it's so interesting. It's

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Speaker 1: so I mean, there's a lot of really horrifying elements

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Speaker 1: to it, but it's also just so rich with with

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Speaker 1: interesting psychological tidbits. Why do these things happen? So I'm

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Speaker 1: glad you guys got to cover it. And Uh, I'm

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Speaker 1: I'm excited for you. Listens right now, who are about

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Speaker 1: to get to hear it? All Right, let's let's enter

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Speaker 1: the vault. Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from

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Speaker 1: how Stuff Works dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to

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Speaker 1: Blow your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb. Hey, I'm

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Speaker 1: Christian Seger guest toasting Yes Christians. Feeling in for Julie.

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Speaker 1: She's on a vacation this week, and uh, we took

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Speaker 1: this opportunity to dive into a couple of darker topics.

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Speaker 1: We talked about Gromore's and in this episode we're talking

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Speaker 1: about a little thing called Satanic panic. And uh, I

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Speaker 1: feel I feel like depending on where our listeners are

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Speaker 1: in terms of of age and the geographical location, they're

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Speaker 1: gonna have varying levels of of intersection with this topic.

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Speaker 1: Based on our previous conversations, I believe we both have

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Speaker 1: varying degrees of contact with the Satanic panic of the

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Speaker 1: nineteen eighties, especially a time in which there was a

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Speaker 1: lot of moral panic and outrage over the perceived threat

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Speaker 1: of secret Satanic cults, which sounds crazy. It may sound

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Speaker 1: crazy to you, but this was a very real atmosphere. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, the peak of Satanic panic was between nineteen

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Speaker 1: eighty five and around nineteen two. Although I think you

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Speaker 1: can probably trace it even a little further back into

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Speaker 1: the late seventies probably, and that for me, I'm thirty seven,

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Speaker 1: I'm about to be thirty eight, So I grew up

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Speaker 1: that was the period of time when I was growing up.

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Speaker 1: You know, Okay, well we're the same age, so okay, yeah,

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Speaker 1: so so yeah, Like I was in elementary school while

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Speaker 1: this was going on, and it was a it was

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Speaker 1: something that my parents weren't necessarily as afraid of it,

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Speaker 1: but I had friends whose parents were afraid of it. Uh,

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Speaker 1: and then um, we talked about this off air. But

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Speaker 1: I had an experience where for a year I had

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Speaker 1: to go to a private religious school and there was

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Speaker 1: a lot of satanic panic within this school, and in

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Speaker 1: particular about demon possession and being the need to be

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Speaker 1: exercised or even Uh. We had a classmate who was

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Speaker 1: ostracized by our teacher because he was purported to be

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Speaker 1: possessed by the devil. Oh wow, I mean I I

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Speaker 1: definitely grew up as well in a in a family

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Speaker 1: environment where a lot of there wasn't a lot of

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Speaker 1: of of emphasis on satanic panic. It wasn't really a

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Speaker 1: thing in my family. But would go to church and

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Speaker 1: you would you would hear about the thread or read

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Speaker 1: about the Thread, and various youth of publications that were

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Speaker 1: that were aimed at us about the dangers of say,

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Speaker 1: horror literature, about of course heavy metal music and um

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Speaker 1: and then there were I remember also having having friends

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Speaker 1: who were really heavily involved in our youth group and

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Speaker 1: being at a youth coffee house and being asked to

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Speaker 1: come into a back room to sit in on an exorcism. Uh.

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Speaker 1: You know, it was this whole atmosphere, uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: there's especially attractive to deteens in which these these demonic

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Speaker 1: forces were real. There was this there's this war between

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Speaker 1: the forces of good and the forces of evil and

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Speaker 1: your soul, your mind is kind of the battle ground. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and it's satanic panic are also you know what what

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Speaker 1: the claimed practices are generally termed under the phrase satanic

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Speaker 1: ritual abuse UM or s r A. For sure, we

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Speaker 1: might say that throughout the podcast. But there there was

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Speaker 1: this mm hmmm uh sort of chaos about the general

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Speaker 1: chaos about growing up as a human being in the world,

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Speaker 1: especially as an adolescent, when you're trying to figure things out,

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Speaker 1: you're trying to make sense of the world, and then

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Speaker 1: along comes this narrative that's basically like you are at

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Speaker 1: the center of this and either um, these underground mysterious

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Speaker 1: heavy metal cults can transform your soul into into darkness

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Speaker 1: or you can be guarded and uh, you know, come

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Speaker 1: out on the side of righteousness. Uh. And it you know,

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Speaker 1: it sounds silly, it sounds very um black and white. Um,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, having lived through it, like it's especially like

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Speaker 1: going back and then doing the research on this and

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Speaker 1: being like, oh, yeah, I remember when that happened. And

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Speaker 1: but but but my little ten year old brain, you know,

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Speaker 1: seven couldn't couldn't exactly make sense of it, you know.

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Speaker 1: Uh yeah, It's just some fascinating stuff. But largely Satanic

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Speaker 1: panic was a combination of m that there was this

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Speaker 1: idea of repressed memories being brought back, and a lot

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Speaker 1: of these repressed memories were supposedly of interactions or torture

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Speaker 1: within satanic underground organizations, their secret organizations that are worshiping

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Speaker 1: the devil and it's part of their rights. They are

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Speaker 1: abuse using, often sexually, very young children, and that that

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Speaker 1: is sort of where the moral panic comes in. That

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Speaker 1: gets everyone involved, at least in the children. Yeah, the Again,

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Speaker 1: the this is kind of ironic, as I wrote a

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Speaker 1: comic book called this but think of the children, as

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Speaker 1: you always they always comes back to these moral panics,

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Speaker 1: is that something is going wrong with the children. And

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Speaker 1: in this particular case, it was actually true in a

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Speaker 1: lot of these incidents that there were children that were

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Speaker 1: being physically abused and sexually abused. But there has not

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Speaker 1: been by and large evidence that there ever was an

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Speaker 1: underground Satanic network or cult that was operating and performing

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Speaker 1: these these acts. Yeah, I mean, certainly there are there

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Speaker 1: their individuals out there that self identify as Satanist, but

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Speaker 1: Satanist of the type that are vilified in Satanic panic

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Speaker 1: and in this movement. They never existed, and that's something

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Speaker 1: that's key to deep in mind. But that's one of

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Speaker 1: the things that's so fascinating about it is that there

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Speaker 1: is no actual religious group that this is based around.

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Speaker 1: It's all based on on hearsay and myth making and fear. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and it's um that myth making largely came out of

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Speaker 1: media sensationalism in the eighties too, And in particular, there

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Speaker 1: was one hallmark that we both watched and kind of

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Speaker 1: kind of went back to which was Horaldo Rivera and

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Speaker 1: had uh an expose that was called awhere is it

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Speaker 1: the title of this thing? Uh Devil Worship exposing Satan's

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Speaker 1: underground And it was this two hour talk show that

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Speaker 1: he did, interspersed with various you know, on the scene

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Speaker 1: reports of Heraldo talking to victims of Satanic ritual abuse.

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Speaker 1: But then in the studio he was talking to Ozzy

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Speaker 1: Osbourne via satellite, and then he had um a Catholic

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Speaker 1: priest on stage, and he had members of the Church

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Speaker 1: of St Anton LaVey's Church of Satan, not to be

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Speaker 1: confused with the Satanic Panic Satanist cults that we are

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Speaker 1: supposedly operating. Uh FBI agents were in the room or

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Speaker 1: on stage who were supposedly, you know, tracking down these

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Speaker 1: underground cults. It rewatching it. I expected to be very skeptical,

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Speaker 1: and instead I found myself saying, Okay, I know about this.

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Speaker 1: I know that this is largely a a moral hysteria

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Speaker 1: that happened thirty years ago, but it's compelling. I could

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Speaker 1: see why people fell for it at the time, and

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Speaker 1: we're you know, deeply concerned. Um so yeah, it's just

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Speaker 1: really interesting. But so ultimately Satanic ritual abuse falls under

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Speaker 1: the following claimed practices that were being acted out by

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Speaker 1: these groups. Supposedly, Uh, there was human sacrifice, sexual depravity

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Speaker 1: make of that what you will, or perversion, uh, and

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Speaker 1: that that these were actual statistics the law enforcement officials

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Speaker 1: were throwing out fifty thousand or more people were dying

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Speaker 1: a year in the United States of America from Satanic

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Speaker 1: ritual abuse supposedly, and uh, during their torture or murders,

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Speaker 1: they were forced to consume urine or feces or blood

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Speaker 1: and there's just you know, basically anything that you can

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Speaker 1: think of as being like depraved acts were placed upon

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Speaker 1: uh at the at the foot of these mythological groups.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know if mythological is the right

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Speaker 1: term to use here, but they were fantastic, Yeah, And

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Speaker 1: it's it's interesting when you start looking back, um through history,

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Speaker 1: like how we got to this point, because I kind

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Speaker 1: of think even in terms of of a bonfire, right, um,

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Speaker 1: in which you have all this kindling that's built up

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Speaker 1: and it gets it's to the point where you all

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Speaker 1: you need is that additional spark to to really just

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Speaker 1: send it ablaze, and the spark being of course, threats threat,

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Speaker 1: a threat to the children, or you know, a threat

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Speaker 1: to you know, a real personal threat to yourself. Now,

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Speaker 1: if you go back far enough in time, you'll find

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Speaker 1: plenty of accounts of for instance, blood libel fourteen seventy

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Speaker 1: five assignment of Prent blood Libel, in which an entire

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Speaker 1: Jewish community was tortured over the death of a two

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Speaker 1: year old Christian boy. There, you know, the claim being

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Speaker 1: that there was a ritual murder of the child. Um.

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Speaker 1: You can you can find parallels and uh in which

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Speaker 1: hunts and which person persecutions throughout time. But when you're

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Speaker 1: looking particularly at the twentieth century, UM, there's a historian

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Speaker 1: by the name of Philip Jenkins who wrote a fabulous

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Speaker 1: piece called Satanism and Ritual Abuse. And this is collected

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Speaker 1: in uh the Oxford Handbook of New Religious Movements. I

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Speaker 1: believe it's one of the last chapters in the book. UM. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's really interesting piece, and I think it is one

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Speaker 1: of the best things that I've read that sort of

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Speaker 1: encapsulates the whole hysteria of the time and sort of

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Speaker 1: points to there being a similar theme eames within the

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Speaker 1: Satanic panic hysteria to the rhetorical themes that we're going

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Speaker 1: on with fringe religions throughout history too. You know, there's

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Speaker 1: an empty emphasis on protecting endangered children, as we already

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Speaker 1: talked about, but there's also this idea that religions are

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Speaker 1: shaped by mass media. Yeah indeed, and um and yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's the only this is the only chapter in the

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Speaker 1: book that deals with a non existent religion. Like there's

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Speaker 1: all deal with with actual faiths and splinter groups, but

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Speaker 1: this is one, as we pointed out, never actually exists.

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Speaker 1: Now you have culturally resonant concepts of the Black Mass,

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Speaker 1: ritual magic, uh, the Witches, Sabbath all kind of merged

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Speaker 1: together and and just just setting back there in the

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Speaker 1: public consciousness. On on top of that, you have you

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Speaker 1: have nineteen fourteen, you have tales of Alistair Crawley's Black

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Speaker 1: Masses and Exotic London, uh that were published. They were

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Speaker 1: published stories about this in the New York World. Uh.

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Speaker 1: So already you have this idea that there are there

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Speaker 1: are people out there in the world that are engaging

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Speaker 1: in these dark rights. Uh. You have ninety seven Herbert

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Speaker 1: Gorman's uh tale The Place called Dagon, which is a

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Speaker 1: work of fiction about Satanist or Satanist like cults that

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Speaker 1: were descended from survivors of Salem. Yeah, this was a

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Speaker 1: fascinating find for me in the research because I am

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Speaker 1: a fan of weird fiction. I'm a fan of horror fiction,

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Speaker 1: and obviously a lot of that traces back to HP

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Speaker 1: Lovecraft's work, and HP Lovecraft was apparently influenced by this book,

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Speaker 1: and it's something that I had never heard of before.

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Speaker 1: I mean, or if I did, it just never resonated

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Speaker 1: with me. Yes, same here he because he apparently mentions

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Speaker 1: it in Supernatural Horror and Literature, which I've read, but

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Speaker 1: he throws out a lot of authors and titles that,

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Speaker 1: especially the modern reader is not going to be that

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Speaker 1: connected with. But apparently it's a big influence on on Lovecraft, Block,

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Speaker 1: Henry Cuttner, Dennis Wheatley, various other individuals who who definitely

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Speaker 1: resonated at the time and affected the weird fiction world

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Speaker 1: and then the larger pulp pop culture world to emerge

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Speaker 1: from it. Yeah. And one of Jenkins arguments in this

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Speaker 1: piece is that you can trace almost all the elements

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Speaker 1: of the nineteen eighties Satanic panic back to this nine

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Speaker 1: seven story, the place called Dagon, which ultimately you know,

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Speaker 1: it's summarizes being like, it's a thriller that's set in

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Speaker 1: western Massachusetts, which is where I'm originally from. Uh, and

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Speaker 1: that descendants from Salem, Massachusetts, which if if you don't know,

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Speaker 1: Salem is on the east coast of Massachusetts. Uh, practice

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Speaker 1: the you know, which is famous for the witch trials

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Speaker 1: and for for witchcraft. These descendants moved out to Western

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Speaker 1: mass and essentially we're performing the same Satanic rituals and

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Speaker 1: and uh, you know, usage of it actually ties back

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Speaker 1: to what we talked about in a in a previous

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Speaker 1: podcast about grimoires. The the idea of this sort of

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Speaker 1: ritual magic being used and in these texts being used

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Speaker 1: to perform it, it's energing. Kins points out that by

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Speaker 1: the nineteen thirties, uh, the roots were already there fictionally,

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Speaker 1: but you also saw a few instances here and there

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Speaker 1: of law enforcement actually beginning to at least entertain the

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Speaker 1: possibility of sacrificial cult activities and in some crimes. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I think that that's one of the really interesting things

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Speaker 1: that probably helped popularize it too, right, is that, um,

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Speaker 1: these various law enforcement officials, and I don't think that

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Speaker 1: they necessarily had malicious intent. They probably thought that they

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Speaker 1: were they had come upon, you know, actual leads in

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Speaker 1: these stories. I mean, you know what I kept thinking

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Speaker 1: of when I was reading this stuff was True Detective,

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Speaker 1: the first season of True Detective, and I was like,

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Speaker 1: you could look at the first season of True Detective

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Speaker 1: as being about, uh, these misguided uh police officers who

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Speaker 1: think that there's a secret uh ritualistic cult somewhere that's

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Speaker 1: you know, running things and abusing children, which which ultimately,

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Speaker 1: you know, that's that's what that fictional story is about.

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Speaker 1: But ultimately that was the same narrative that these FBI

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Speaker 1: agents or police officers or whomever were, you know, kind

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Speaker 1: of on the hunt because the thought thought was going on,

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Speaker 1: they they wanted to be doing their jobs basically, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: because I mean, in one hand, you have this fictional world,

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Speaker 1: but then you have in these fictional accounts of Satanic rights.

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Speaker 1: But then you also have, you know, in the back

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Speaker 1: of everyone's mind this idea that black Mass and ritual mass,

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Speaker 1: magic and the witches Sabbath was real. You have these stories,

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Speaker 1: uh that that you're you're reading about when in which

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Speaker 1: there are people that are self identifying as Satanist. For instance, Uh,

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Speaker 1: nineteen sixty six, that's the when Anton LaVey founded the

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Speaker 1: Church of Satan, and obviously that makes the that makes

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Speaker 1: the media rounds. People are outraged about that, even though

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Speaker 1: at heart, um LaVey's Satanism was really more grounded in

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Speaker 1: h to a certain extent, satire and also cultural commentary

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Speaker 1: and as well as sort of Carney high jinks and fun. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I think this is one of the really important distinctions

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Speaker 1: that we should make here in the podcast so that

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Speaker 1: there isn't confusion for the listeners, is that the Anton

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Speaker 1: Lavay Church of Satan is UH an entirely different philosophy organization.

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Speaker 1: They refer to themselves as a religion. Uh, then what

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Speaker 1: was even being imagined as these underground Satanic cults? And

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Speaker 1: to sort of summarize it, I'm not I'm not the

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Speaker 1: best at Anton LaVey uh philosophy, but my takeaway from

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Speaker 1: it is that ultimately it was just about a philosophy

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Speaker 1: of individualism and that Lave's thing was that each individual

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Speaker 1: as their own God. And so they used quote unquote

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Speaker 1: Satan as a metaphorical expression right of of having pride

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Speaker 1: in yourself and being enlightened because you were your own god. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And it was ultimately about and they they refer to

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Speaker 1: this in the Hurrah, those special rational self interest. But

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Speaker 1: you're right, it was very theatrical and it had like

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Speaker 1: elements of data is um to it. I guess that

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Speaker 1: this performance where like love a dresses up in these

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Speaker 1: robes and has you know, his his eyebrows waxed so

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Speaker 1: that they look villainous. You know, he was playing up

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Speaker 1: to it, and he was using terms like Church of

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Speaker 1: Satan or Book of Satan in order to provoke people.

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Speaker 1: But then they were sort of appropriated again, uh, for

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Speaker 1: this this panic about Satanic ritual abuse, and we're often conflated.

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Speaker 1: It's really fascinating when you watch that Heraldo special to

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Speaker 1: see members of of his church. I think at the

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Speaker 1: time love was dead, but like his daughter and another

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Speaker 1: member of his church who at the time was an

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Speaker 1: army colonel. We're on stage and answering Horaldo's questions, basically

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Speaker 1: trying to say, you know what we're talking about here,

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Speaker 1: that they're completely two separate things. This, you know, Church

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Speaker 1: of Satan is a ironic formance philosophy piece essentially, uh.

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Speaker 1: Whereas like the the accusations of ritual abuse had nothing

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Speaker 1: to do with them, right. It's it is interesting that

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Speaker 1: they were kind of dude to a certain extent. They

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Speaker 1: were riding the wave of of the the the sort

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Speaker 1: of Satanic culture, if you will, but then also end

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Speaker 1: up falling falling into the trap of satanic panic as well,

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Speaker 1: because you had, of course satanic elements in rock music,

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Speaker 1: you had satanic exploitation cinema that you know, really came

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Speaker 1: into its own, especially in the nineties seventies. Um. And

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Speaker 1: then on the other side, and do you also have

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Speaker 1: some real life stuff that's happening, uh that that either

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Speaker 1: has overt shades of Satanic culture to it or some

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Speaker 1: some you know, more subliminal content, or even just media

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Speaker 1: shades cast on it, such as Charles Manson, right right. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So Charles Manson obviously, you know, associated himself with quote

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Speaker 1: the Devil or Satan, even in a looser fashion, I

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Speaker 1: would say that Anton Leavey did. And again I suspect

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Speaker 1: Charles Manson. For Charles Manson, who was largely theatrical purposes,

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Speaker 1: I believe that he had a quote where he said,

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Speaker 1: Satan and Christ will come together at the end of

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Speaker 1: the world to judge humanity, and he is actually in

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Speaker 1: that Haraldo special he had I think Haraldo had done

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Speaker 1: like a previous special year earlier on Murder where he'd

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Speaker 1: gone and visited Charles Manson interviewed him and he's like

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Speaker 1: he can't even like gather any kind of coherence from

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Speaker 1: their conversation because Manson is just rambling the whole time.

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Speaker 1: But uh, but Haraldo is able to kind of take

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Speaker 1: that and manipulate it through edits and footage to seem

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Speaker 1: like he's at the heart of the Satanic ritual abuse.

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Speaker 1: And in around ninety seven you see child abuse really

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Speaker 1: becoming a trending topic in the media with years of

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Speaker 1: media expose. Is to follow on child murder, child or

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Speaker 1: not to be kidnapping very much, the you know the

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Speaker 1: stranger danger, elements of of moral panic um that that really,

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Speaker 1: I mean existed before the Satanic panic and survived well

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Speaker 1: after cannoones to survive in many many ways. Yeah, And

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know, it's understandable now to look back

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Speaker 1: on it and to see why parents are probably terrified

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Speaker 1: at the time. You see real life things like the

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Speaker 1: Jonestown incident happened, where there's a massacre that included many

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Speaker 1: children that were killed by a cultist activity, and so

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Speaker 1: that really takes on a prominent role in the media

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Speaker 1: coverage of threats to children, and in this case, religiously

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Speaker 1: themed threats to children. Uh. Then of course you have

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Speaker 1: you have other murderers who end up taking elements from

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Speaker 1: this moral outrage and incorporating it, incorporating it into their

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Speaker 1: their crimes, or at least there uh the way they

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Speaker 1: end up talking about their crimes after the fact. Richard Ramires,

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Speaker 1: the night stalker murderer between of eighty five, Um, yeah,

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Speaker 1: he was. He was certainly more overt in it than

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Speaker 1: Charles Manson. He would mention Satan during his crimes. His

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Speaker 1: first court appearance, he shows up with a pentagram drawing

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Speaker 1: on his hand and he yells Hail Satan. Uh. And

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Speaker 1: of course that's just that just throws more kindling on

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Speaker 1: the fire, this idea that there there's a danger here

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Speaker 1: with with the with satanic individuals and they want to

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Speaker 1: hurt us. And then there's this there's a danger president

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Speaker 1: culture for our children. Yeah, sort of that behind the scenes,

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Speaker 1: that there there's a Richard Ramirez or a Charles Manson. Uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, they could be anywhere. Basically, it's it's sort

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Speaker 1: of an invasion of the body snatchers all over again.

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Speaker 1: You know. It's this idea that anybody could be part

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Speaker 1: of these networks, anybody, uh could lure your children into

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Speaker 1: danger or you, uh, and that you should be on

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Speaker 1: heightened alert at all times. This explains a lot about

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Speaker 1: me as an adult, having grown up in that period.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, yeah, now I understand why that was

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Speaker 1: so hammered into my head. You know, don't accept candy

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Speaker 1: from strangers that one, or like the old Is this

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Speaker 1: an old wives tail or not? I don't know about

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Speaker 1: a girl scout cookies with needles in them? Do you

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Speaker 1: remember that? I never heard that one. Of course, I

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Speaker 1: always heard the the the trick or treating uh story.

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Speaker 1: You know that you know you need to be careful

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Speaker 1: because there might be razor blades in the apple. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: We used to have to um after we would trick

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Speaker 1: or true to bring all the candy home, and if

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Speaker 1: it was big enough to have a razor blade in it,

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Speaker 1: my my parents would, you know, break it down into

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Speaker 1: smaller pieces to make sure it was safe. You gotta

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Speaker 1: be you gotta be careful. I mean there was when

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Speaker 1: I was growing up, there was one house in the

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Speaker 1: neighborhood where the guy would put um razor blades in

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Speaker 1: the candied apples every year. But they were really good

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Speaker 1: candied apples, so nobody said. So you just kind of

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Speaker 1: ignore it because if you knew what's in there, you

385
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Speaker 1: just know to take it out and enjoy the treat. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's part of its part of the experience, another experience.

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Speaker 1: Another activity that's often thrown into the the the into

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Speaker 1: the Satanic Panic culture, of course, is Dungeons and Dragons. Um.

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Speaker 1: I specifically remember getting into Dungeons and Dragons, and this

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Speaker 1: is in the nineties, so this was after the Satanic

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00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:27,239
Speaker 1: Panic had died away for the most part, but I

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Speaker 1: still received, uh, I think a chick list. What is

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Speaker 1: it a chick pamphlet? Oh? Yeah, jack chick track. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I received it as part of a birthday present from

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Speaker 1: an ant one year anti Dungeons and dragons. Really. Oh,

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00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:42,800
Speaker 1: that's fascinating. So so for listeners who don't know, a

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00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:47,600
Speaker 1: chick track is a very small comic book that is

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Speaker 1: uh usually like a fundamentally Christian in nature um warning

399
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Speaker 1: about the perils of pop culture and how they can

400
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Speaker 1: draw you into Uh. No, I don't know in a

401
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Speaker 1: necessarily satanic practices, but just you know, not being a

402
00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:06,000
Speaker 1: good person and sending you to hell. Yeah, basically damnation

403
00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:08,120
Speaker 1: was always the threat. Yeah, and it and it would

404
00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:11,560
Speaker 1: often include a little uh you know, exploitive or grizzly

405
00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:16,120
Speaker 1: kind of image reads to really grab particularly young reader's attentions. Yeah,

406
00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:19,480
Speaker 1: they're fascinating because they incorporate elements of like the early

407
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Speaker 1: nineteen fifties horror comments into these these comics that are

408
00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:27,360
Speaker 1: ultimately against that kind of pop culture. Yeah. I love

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Speaker 1: those things. You can actually go online and look at

410
00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:33,920
Speaker 1: like the whole library of them. They're fascinating. Yeah. The

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Speaker 1: D and D thing for me, I uh, it must

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Speaker 1: have been the late eighties early nineties when I probably

413
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Speaker 1: started playing Dungeons and Dragons as a little kid, and

414
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Speaker 1: shortly thereafter I had that experience where I went to

415
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Speaker 1: the religious school that I mentioned at the top and

416
00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:53,399
Speaker 1: was sort of terrified that that this box set of

417
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Speaker 1: dice and monster manual and and uh you know, the

418
00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:02,240
Speaker 1: silly stuff about elves and dwarves and gnomes was somehow

419
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Speaker 1: going to lead to my demise its satanic ritual abuse.

420
00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:08,360
Speaker 1: But I did have some pretty heavy demons in there,

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00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:11,639
Speaker 1: and addition of the orcs and elves and then Dice,

422
00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:15,560
Speaker 1: you know, there's something kind of arcane and uh them. Yeah,

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00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:18,879
Speaker 1: and and of course you know, like we mentioned this

424
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Speaker 1: before when we talked about Gramoires in the other episode,

425
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Speaker 1: but there's there's a lot of connections between the system

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Speaker 1: of Dungeons and Dragons world of magic and the Grimoire

427
00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:33,040
Speaker 1: cult world of magic. You know, they're they're they're connected.

428
00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:38,040
Speaker 1: And obviously people who weren't familiar with either of those

429
00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:39,840
Speaker 1: things kind of saw them as being one and the

430
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:44,199
Speaker 1: same and subsequently associated them with satanic ritual abuse. But

431
00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:47,520
Speaker 1: it's really interesting, Um, the D and D thing, there

432
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,159
Speaker 1: was a group that was formed in the nineteen eighties

433
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:54,359
Speaker 1: called Bothered about Dungeons and Dragons. Yeah, and there the

434
00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:59,720
Speaker 1: acronym was bad and I was serving the acronym then yeah, yeah, yeah,

435
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:03,119
Speaker 1: reolutely uh And I believe that they followed a lawsuit

436
00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:05,879
Speaker 1: against whomever owned D and D at the time. I

437
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:07,680
Speaker 1: don't know if that was Gary guy Gaxe or they

438
00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:10,359
Speaker 1: had gone to TSR at that time or not. But

439
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:13,399
Speaker 1: this group then joined forces with this guy who's a

440
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:16,880
Speaker 1: psychiatrist named Thomas Rodecki. Um, because they wanted to raise

441
00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:21,280
Speaker 1: the social awareness of the dangers of dungeons and dragons. Uh.

442
00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:24,520
Speaker 1: And they basically associated it with the idea of that

443
00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:29,119
Speaker 1: in psychotherapy that you act out role playing as a

444
00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:32,399
Speaker 1: way to sort of you know, recover uh, and that

445
00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:35,919
Speaker 1: but that within the game they were using role playing

446
00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:39,200
Speaker 1: for violence and sex and fantasy, and that it would

447
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:41,920
Speaker 1: it would ultimately be the have the opposite effect. It

448
00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:45,000
Speaker 1: would it would lead them down the wrong path. Uh.

449
00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:47,120
Speaker 1: And it was linked with heavy metal music, which we've

450
00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:50,120
Speaker 1: talked about earlier. And the demons within think that this

451
00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:52,400
Speaker 1: is what's fascinating to me, is it all comes around again.

452
00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:57,000
Speaker 1: After this whole Satanic panic movement kind of fades away

453
00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:01,480
Speaker 1: in the mid nineties, Um, you start finding out that

454
00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:04,480
Speaker 1: that uh, a lot of this, you know, their accusations

455
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:08,640
Speaker 1: weren't true. And then academics started doing a real research

456
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:11,760
Speaker 1: on dungeons and dragons and they found that, Uh. For instance,

457
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:14,720
Speaker 1: one of the accusations that bad made about dungeons and

458
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:18,720
Speaker 1: dragons was that increased the chance of, um, your kid

459
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:21,560
Speaker 1: committing suicide. In fact, I believe the founder was the

460
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:23,960
Speaker 1: mother of a of a teenager who committed suicide, and

461
00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:28,080
Speaker 1: she blamed it on Dungeons and Dragons. Um, but there

462
00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:30,919
Speaker 1: was empirical research that proved that that in fact was

463
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:33,159
Speaker 1: not the case, and that rates of suicide were lower

464
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:35,960
Speaker 1: in kids who played Dungeons and Dragons, and there was

465
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:42,119
Speaker 1: also no measurable negative impact on their psychological functioning, emotional measures,

466
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:45,240
Speaker 1: or reality testing. This is all from an article in

467
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:50,040
Speaker 1: Psychology Today that was published in turteen about Dungeons and Dragons,

468
00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:55,280
Speaker 1: Satan and psychology, uh and uh. So their final conclusions

469
00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:58,320
Speaker 1: here basically that the leaders of this group bad had

470
00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:02,600
Speaker 1: completely exaggerated their own dentials. They cherry picked their data

471
00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:06,120
Speaker 1: for convenience obviously of you know, making Dungeons and Dragons

472
00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:08,880
Speaker 1: look bad. And then this is the real interesting fact.

473
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:12,879
Speaker 1: So the psychiatrist that they associated with, Riddecki uh he

474
00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:18,080
Speaker 1: in particular, was arrested in for sexually exploiting his patients.

475
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:24,880
Speaker 1: Uh He was trading basically um medicine for sexual favors

476
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:28,800
Speaker 1: from his patients. So this same guy who was accusing

477
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:32,479
Speaker 1: Dungeons and Dragons of being responsible responsible for sexual abuse

478
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:38,080
Speaker 1: himself was a perpetrator. Alright, So so far we've discussed

479
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:41,560
Speaker 1: the cultural kindling for the most part that leads up

480
00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:47,440
Speaker 1: to the moral panic of Satanic panic. UH. That as uh,

481
00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:51,040
Speaker 1: as historian Philip Jenkins points out in his Peace Satanism

482
00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:54,200
Speaker 1: in Which Will Abuse, UM, you can you can really

483
00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:57,560
Speaker 1: trace a lot um of the the s R a

484
00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:02,680
Speaker 1: Satanic which will abuse UH outcry to this particular book

485
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:07,080
Speaker 1: that comes out in Night, titled Michelle Remembers, UH comes

486
00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:12,400
Speaker 1: out and it really cements this notion of ritualized sexual

487
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:17,560
Speaker 1: abuse by Satanic cults. Everything we've been talking about, black robes, um,

488
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:21,479
Speaker 1: you know, vile rights, UH, the the abuse against children,

489
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:25,760
Speaker 1: and it entails UH the so called Michelle's memories that

490
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:28,920
Speaker 1: are recalled during therapy in the nineteen seventies of her

491
00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:32,720
Speaker 1: sexual abuse in the nineteen fifties in Vancouver. So we're

492
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:36,360
Speaker 1: talking Ozzy and Harriet Era here and that One of

493
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:39,000
Speaker 1: the interesting things about Michelle Remembers, which again this was

494
00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:40,720
Speaker 1: a book that I was not familiar with before we

495
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:44,480
Speaker 1: got to the research for this UM, is that Michelle Smith,

496
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:48,200
Speaker 1: who was the patient that underwent the therapy and was

497
00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:52,520
Speaker 1: the subject of this book, her therapist later became her husband.

498
00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:56,120
Speaker 1: So this man who helped her uncover these memories, they

499
00:29:56,160 --> 00:30:00,200
Speaker 1: also began an intimate relationship together. But over the course

500
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:02,680
Speaker 1: of the years, many people have discredited the claims that

501
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:05,880
Speaker 1: were made within the book. Um, both psychologists and I

502
00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:09,320
Speaker 1: believe people from her actual past. Yeah, I think literally

503
00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:12,040
Speaker 1: all of the charges that that come out of her

504
00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:16,400
Speaker 1: personal accounts of this abuse comes from West African secret

505
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:19,560
Speaker 1: societies accounts of them anyway, they were imported into Canada

506
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:23,920
Speaker 1: in the nineteen fifties. But this narrative becomes really popular

507
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:26,720
Speaker 1: and and it has two key things that does here.

508
00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:30,000
Speaker 1: It leads to other survivor accounts that spring up, other

509
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:33,080
Speaker 1: people that are that are writing books about their their

510
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:36,760
Speaker 1: reclaim memories of Satanic abuse in the past. And it

511
00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:41,240
Speaker 1: also really pushes into a certain example, legitimizes the theory

512
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:45,200
Speaker 1: that traumatic memories can remain dormant only to be recalled

513
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:49,440
Speaker 1: later by a therapist. Yeah, it's really the common theme

514
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:54,760
Speaker 1: that runs throughout most of the Satanic panic hysteria. Is uh,

515
00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:58,960
Speaker 1: this this this scientific idea of repressed memories being a

516
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:02,800
Speaker 1: psychological pheno aminon that certain therapists are going to be

517
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:05,840
Speaker 1: able to dig deep enough and pull out this traumatic

518
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:09,320
Speaker 1: memory and make you, you know, realize what what truly

519
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:11,440
Speaker 1: made you the way that you are what what is

520
00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:14,720
Speaker 1: what is actually causing your problems? Um? And it was

521
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:17,920
Speaker 1: everybody from psychotherapists to child welfare advocates, and they didn't

522
00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:21,160
Speaker 1: you know, again, like the law enforcement officials that were involved,

523
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 1: I don't think that they necessarily had malicious intentions. Maybe

524
00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:27,360
Speaker 1: some of them saw some profit. I would imagine that

525
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:31,440
Speaker 1: the author of Michelle Remembers saw some good paychecks out

526
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:35,680
Speaker 1: of that book's popularity. But uh, you know, basically they

527
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:39,200
Speaker 1: thought that this was evidence of these satanic cults actually existing,

528
00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:43,240
Speaker 1: and they wanted to protect small children. That was essentially

529
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:46,320
Speaker 1: what they saw from it, um. And so they used

530
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:52,120
Speaker 1: hypnosis or different kinds of psychological protocols to essentially, you know,

531
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:55,720
Speaker 1: save people from Satan, to save people from these past

532
00:31:55,760 --> 00:32:01,800
Speaker 1: traumatic events, and to dig up uh dirt on on

533
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:06,760
Speaker 1: the actual you know, threat that was still out there, um,

534
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:08,920
Speaker 1: which which led to a lot of finger pointing and

535
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:12,280
Speaker 1: and um in some cases which we'll talk about later

536
00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:16,760
Speaker 1: with like West Memphis three uh accusations that send people

537
00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:20,560
Speaker 1: to jail unjustly. Yeah, I mean you can certainly see

538
00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:24,080
Speaker 1: the attractiveness of it both on the the treat the

539
00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:27,320
Speaker 1: treatment side and the patient side. I mean, if you,

540
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:29,800
Speaker 1: you're you're feeling like you're out of sorts in the world,

541
00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:31,640
Speaker 1: like you have some problem, and if only you could

542
00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:34,240
Speaker 1: you could just carr out the root cause of it, right,

543
00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:37,400
Speaker 1: and then if there is this, uh, this narrative that's

544
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:40,040
Speaker 1: presented to you that well, perhaps in the past you

545
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:45,920
Speaker 1: were abused, perhaps you were abused by this nefarious organization

546
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:48,960
Speaker 1: and all the main thing we need to do, or

547
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:52,040
Speaker 1: at least the first step, is to get those memories

548
00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:54,440
Speaker 1: out of the dark, out of the you know, the

549
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:57,120
Speaker 1: closet of your mind, and pull them out to where

550
00:32:57,200 --> 00:32:59,920
Speaker 1: we can dispel them, and to give you an idea

551
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:04,200
Speaker 1: of just how prevalent this was. UH. An organization formed

552
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:08,520
Speaker 1: in around this idea of repressed memories. It was called

553
00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:11,920
Speaker 1: the False Memory Syndrome Foundation. And here's some statistics I

554
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:14,400
Speaker 1: found from a USA Today article. At the time when

555
00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:17,520
Speaker 1: it was first formed and they were interviewing them, uh,

556
00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:20,920
Speaker 1: they said that, um, uh, they had done a survey

557
00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:26,800
Speaker 1: where they interviewed three thousand of families and their preliminary

558
00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:32,080
Speaker 1: findings were of just these three thousand people. Of the

559
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:35,000
Speaker 1: children within these families said that they people who were

560
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:37,959
Speaker 1: adults now but who had been children, say that they

561
00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:41,560
Speaker 1: had been tortured in Satanic rituals. So of the three

562
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:45,640
Speaker 1: thousand people that they interviewed, that that's huge to me

563
00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:49,680
Speaker 1: and sounds uh like like an astronomical number when you

564
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:54,720
Speaker 1: apply that kind of generalization to the entire American population. Uh.

565
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:58,400
Speaker 1: And then there's this also the interesting study A group

566
00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:01,200
Speaker 1: psychologists at the State Universe of New York at Buffalo

567
00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:04,800
Speaker 1: looked further into it and they found that of eight

568
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:10,360
Speaker 1: hundred therapists UH had at least or sorry, they interviewed

569
00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:13,920
Speaker 1: thirty thousand therapists and eight hundred of them said that

570
00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:16,960
Speaker 1: they had at least once in their sessions with their patients,

571
00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:21,200
Speaker 1: had come across cases of Satanic ritual abuse. So this,

572
00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:24,360
Speaker 1: I mean, there was hard evidence as far as people

573
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:28,759
Speaker 1: I saw that this was happening, that it was pervasive

574
00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:31,839
Speaker 1: and it needed to be stopped. Yea. And of course

575
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:35,480
Speaker 1: these narratives that they're pulling out there obviously informed by

576
00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:38,840
Speaker 1: the the established narrative in the culture that that of

577
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:42,000
Speaker 1: the retrieve memories, but also um, all of these influences

578
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:46,840
Speaker 1: we've talked about before, the culture of black masses and Sabbaths,

579
00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:51,360
Speaker 1: every Devil movie that came out in the nineties, sixties, seventies,

580
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:54,560
Speaker 1: and eighties, all of it coloring your perceptions, um, of

581
00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:58,480
Speaker 1: the adults. Anyway, Now, what happens when you attempt to

582
00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:02,160
Speaker 1: pull these uh, the these types of memories from from

583
00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:04,880
Speaker 1: a small child, though, from someone who does hasn't seen

584
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:09,560
Speaker 1: Rosemary's Baby, who who doesn't listen to uh, who hasn't

585
00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:12,520
Speaker 1: heard Heraldo on television talking about the dangers of death metal.

586
00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:16,080
Speaker 1: What's said, Well, we see that in UM in a

587
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:21,320
Speaker 1: very pivotal nineteen four case to McMartin preschool UM sexual

588
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:24,960
Speaker 1: abuse case in southern California. And this is a case

589
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:28,640
Speaker 1: where prosecutors charge that a ring of teachers were sexually

590
00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:33,200
Speaker 1: abusing hundreds of small children in rituals that involved robes

591
00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:37,319
Speaker 1: and masks and pentacles and church altars. And the case

592
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:40,759
Speaker 1: now is regarded as completely focus. But at the time

593
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:43,520
Speaker 1: it sent out these waves of fear just through throughout

594
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:45,319
Speaker 1: the society, got picked up on the media and just

595
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:49,960
Speaker 1: you know, boosted uh, you know, tenfold. Um. In this case,

596
00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:53,760
Speaker 1: like cases to follow uh, it followed a particular flow.

597
00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:58,920
Speaker 1: You had a limited plausible accusation of abuse that emerges

598
00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:01,960
Speaker 1: at a school, and then you haven't have an investigation

599
00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:04,920
Speaker 1: and you know, interrogate the the child and then you

600
00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:09,200
Speaker 1: get this therapist derived account from from an impressionable young

601
00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:14,640
Speaker 1: child regarding what happened. And since these kids, for the

602
00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:18,080
Speaker 1: most part, they have no knowledge of of adult sexuality,

603
00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:20,840
Speaker 1: but they but they can tell that this this concerned

604
00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:24,520
Speaker 1: adult authority figure is trying to get something disturbing out

605
00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:27,200
Speaker 1: of them. So what does a small child bring to

606
00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:29,799
Speaker 1: the table, what can they possibly pull out? They start

607
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:32,480
Speaker 1: talking about, well, well, they made me drink peepee, they

608
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:35,600
Speaker 1: made me eat Yeah. Yeah, It's basically like they go

609
00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:39,799
Speaker 1: for their version of whatever the worst taboo possible thing

610
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:42,480
Speaker 1: could be at the time. And you know, so of

611
00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:45,560
Speaker 1: course they think of it as being things like that.

612
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:49,960
Speaker 1: Then uh it's the word copperphilia. Yeah yeah, yeah. And

613
00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:54,080
Speaker 1: that McMartin incident was one of many. Yeah, there's I

614
00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:56,919
Speaker 1: believe in the Heraldo special as well that they talked

615
00:36:56,960 --> 00:37:01,200
Speaker 1: about a Presidio daycare center that had a very similar

616
00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:04,799
Speaker 1: kind of uh incident that was that was labeled as

617
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:09,200
Speaker 1: being potentially attached to satanic ritual abuse. And there is

618
00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:11,600
Speaker 1: an interesting part two where they talked about the McMartin

619
00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:16,480
Speaker 1: school abuse scandal. I believe, and they started comparing that

620
00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:21,960
Speaker 1: their idea of Satanic rituals as being somehow associated with

621
00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:24,520
Speaker 1: the Episcopal Church, which I thought was interesting. It felt

622
00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:28,200
Speaker 1: like this strange smear campaign against Episcopals, as if it

623
00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:32,799
Speaker 1: wasn't like a a valid form of Christianity. It was,

624
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:35,359
Speaker 1: it was brief. It was kind of interesting. And so

625
00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:38,920
Speaker 1: in both of these cases we see this established in

626
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:42,840
Speaker 1: the media, in the increasingly in the public mindset, uh

627
00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:48,080
Speaker 1: that Satanic ritual abuse is a threat to our children

628
00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:51,120
Speaker 1: as well as to the child that we used to be,

629
00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:54,600
Speaker 1: that we all could have been conceivably sexually abused by

630
00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:57,279
Speaker 1: Satanist in the past, and we have only to to

631
00:37:57,440 --> 00:37:59,560
Speaker 1: pull that out of our out of out of the

632
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:02,200
Speaker 1: closet of our memory. But the thing is, it's it

633
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:06,680
Speaker 1: goes beyond just Heraldo Rivera right. It becomes a part

634
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:12,360
Speaker 1: of it becomes disseminated outward through professional organizations, through police, therapist,

635
00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:16,480
Speaker 1: youth workers, seminars aimed at the discovery of new Satanic

636
00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:19,920
Speaker 1: abuse histories. And so you reach the point by the

637
00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:23,080
Speaker 1: by the nineteen eighties where the panic is spreading outward

638
00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:27,160
Speaker 1: into the UK, into Australia, Canada. The Netherlands, South Africa,

639
00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:32,800
Speaker 1: anywhere that an American therapeutic and criminological literature is read. Yeah. Yeah,

640
00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:35,719
Speaker 1: and it's so the Netherlands part is one of the

641
00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:39,480
Speaker 1: ones that's interesting to me. Uh so Uh, I am

642
00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:43,520
Speaker 1: a fan of heavy metal music. Uh and uh uh.

643
00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:48,000
Speaker 1: The Netherlands and Norway in particular are are known for

644
00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:50,960
Speaker 1: as being the home of black metal, this particular genre

645
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:55,560
Speaker 1: of metal, which was largely associated with this sort of

646
00:38:55,600 --> 00:39:00,319
Speaker 1: traditionalist movement of burning down Christian churches, and of their

647
00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:05,640
Speaker 1: members were accused and tried for murder. Uh. And so

648
00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:09,120
Speaker 1: even though they didn't necessarily have I don't even think

649
00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:12,440
Speaker 1: like possibly their their song lyrics have anything to do

650
00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:17,400
Speaker 1: with Satan or devil worship, but because they were against

651
00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:24,600
Speaker 1: Christianity again, the Satanic panics hysteria sort of spread over there. Yeah,

652
00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:27,200
Speaker 1: so that the cultural kindling was perfect for that spark

653
00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:30,759
Speaker 1: to fly across the ocean and take root. Yeah. Absolutely,

654
00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:40,480
Speaker 1: it's interesting to uh like how much of the messaging

655
00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:43,000
Speaker 1: was of course aimed at parents, but also at teenagers

656
00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:45,960
Speaker 1: about the dangers of all the stuff about dungeons and

657
00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:49,239
Speaker 1: dragons and the music. Uh. And you know, when you're

658
00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:52,000
Speaker 1: a teenager of course, all you want to do is

659
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:54,480
Speaker 1: is is find the significance in your life in it

660
00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:57,759
Speaker 1: and at times lash out against the authority figures in

661
00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:02,200
Speaker 1: their expectations, so you actually end up fleeing to that stuff.

662
00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:06,319
Speaker 1: Like I I definitely had a copy of both that

663
00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:11,880
Speaker 1: Fake Necronomicon and the AI Satanic Bible. Nice paperback versions

664
00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:15,799
Speaker 1: of both. Satanic Bible was a best seller. Yeah, I

665
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:17,799
Speaker 1: mean a lot of I think there were a lot

666
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:21,279
Speaker 1: of both adolescents and adults with that same experience. They

667
00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:23,719
Speaker 1: were like, oh, by this is you know, it's kind

668
00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:25,680
Speaker 1: of a I imagine the kind of thing that you

669
00:40:25,719 --> 00:40:28,400
Speaker 1: would find it urban outfitters nowadays or something near the

670
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:31,920
Speaker 1: checkout line. Yeah. I remember having both those books, listening

671
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:36,120
Speaker 1: to Marilyn Manson. Yeah, very much engaging in that, you know,

672
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:39,200
Speaker 1: in the in the in the on one level, in

673
00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:41,920
Speaker 1: the possibility that there was something to do all this darkness,

674
00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:44,600
Speaker 1: but also just in the you know, need to stand

675
00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:49,000
Speaker 1: apart from the adult world. Yeah, it's the traditional sort

676
00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:55,600
Speaker 1: of adolescent anti authoritarian reflex, right, combined with the um

677
00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:59,960
Speaker 1: the hysteria at the time moving around satanic ritual abuse.

678
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:02,840
Speaker 1: So yeah, I could see whether two would be conflated.

679
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:05,040
Speaker 1: I mean, especially in a if you're if you grow

680
00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:08,360
Speaker 1: up in like a Christian or even just vaguely Christian

681
00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:11,719
Speaker 1: environment in which you have the the the economy of

682
00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:15,319
Speaker 1: good and evil, of God and Satan, and uh, you're

683
00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:17,319
Speaker 1: gonna have a tendency to sympathize with the villain in

684
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:19,880
Speaker 1: that piece. And then uh and and by his book,

685
00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:23,080
Speaker 1: yeah it is, it is right exactly. And so like

686
00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:26,480
Speaker 1: my experience growing up was literally being in one of

687
00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:31,439
Speaker 1: these uh private Christian schools where I was told constantly,

688
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:35,359
Speaker 1: if you do the wrong thing, uh, then you're going

689
00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:38,520
Speaker 1: to be possessed by a demon and you'll possibly murder

690
00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:40,600
Speaker 1: your family. I mean, this was like an actual thing

691
00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:44,560
Speaker 1: that our pastor would tell us in class every day. Um.

692
00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:46,760
Speaker 1: And so you know, I mean this is probably around

693
00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:49,680
Speaker 1: I don't know, so so towards the tail end of

694
00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:54,200
Speaker 1: this stuff, but but you know, uh, they fill fill

695
00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:57,279
Speaker 1: your head with this enough. It's it's as bad, if

696
00:41:57,320 --> 00:42:01,879
Speaker 1: not worse than Ozzy Osborne Box or King Diamonds. You know, Yeah,

697
00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:04,320
Speaker 1: because you know that stuff is just largely engaging in

698
00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:10,120
Speaker 1: fun and theme. It's theatrical. Yeah, yeah, I don't Yeah,

699
00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:12,520
Speaker 1: I don't know. As a as a person who's into

700
00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:15,800
Speaker 1: heavy metal, I don't know of a lot of people

701
00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:20,839
Speaker 1: are famous metal musicians that are serious members of a

702
00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:24,560
Speaker 1: satanic organization. Yeah yeah, I mean I think of like

703
00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:29,480
Speaker 1: some of the interviews I've seen with like metal that

704
00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:32,160
Speaker 1: that I enjoy, And if you just listen to their

705
00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:34,640
Speaker 1: their their their lyrics and their music, you get, you know,

706
00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:38,040
Speaker 1: very much the the theme they're going for and this

707
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:42,600
Speaker 1: the dark, the heavy, the you know, industrial disturbing nature

708
00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:44,319
Speaker 1: the thing. But then you see an interview of them

709
00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:47,080
Speaker 1: and they just seem like like goofy guys their music,

710
00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:49,200
Speaker 1: you know, Yeah, absolutely, I mean I think that that's

711
00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:52,120
Speaker 1: that was probably the case with Ozzy Osbourne as well.

712
00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:55,440
Speaker 1: He's in that Heraldo thing and it's it's hilarious watching

713
00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:58,880
Speaker 1: him be interviewed. He's much more lucid than the later

714
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:04,600
Speaker 1: Ozzy Osby one of reality TV the counter theirs. Yeah,

715
00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:08,120
Speaker 1: but he uh, you know, he obviously wasn't articulate enough

716
00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:11,960
Speaker 1: to kind of argue on his own behalf of why

717
00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:17,000
Speaker 1: he was just using these elements this imagery and symbology, uh,

718
00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:22,719
Speaker 1: theatrically as part of his stage persona, uh, rather than

719
00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:28,040
Speaker 1: you know it being directly impactful on teenagers in America

720
00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:32,040
Speaker 1: committing crimes against other children or their or their their

721
00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:37,160
Speaker 1: peers even um there, yeah, there there were moments in

722
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:40,439
Speaker 1: that in the Haraldo special where they they're interviewing kids

723
00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:44,319
Speaker 1: who are in prison for having killed uh, their their

724
00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:47,000
Speaker 1: peers in school like uh. I can't remember the name

725
00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:50,439
Speaker 1: of the particular um guy, he'd probably be a little

726
00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:53,640
Speaker 1: older than us now, probably in his forties, but um,

727
00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:56,000
Speaker 1: there was an interview with him and he just, you know,

728
00:43:56,160 --> 00:44:01,839
Speaker 1: straight up blames it on heavy metal and satanic uh participation.

729
00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:04,680
Speaker 1: I have a feeling it was Seawan Seller's or Pete

730
00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:08,480
Speaker 1: Rowland that was it. That was the guy. Yeah, yeah,

731
00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:12,440
Speaker 1: so it's um. You know, I think it was also

732
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:16,360
Speaker 1: easy for people like that who had committed these atrocious

733
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:21,520
Speaker 1: crimes to say to put the locus of control externally

734
00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:24,000
Speaker 1: onto something else and to say it wasn't me, it's

735
00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:26,239
Speaker 1: not inside of me. I didn't mean to do this.

736
00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:30,040
Speaker 1: It was because of heavy metal or Dungeons and Dragons

737
00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:32,880
Speaker 1: or and they're just yeah, they're just taking the excuse

738
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:35,640
Speaker 1: that the media has has crafted for them and presented

739
00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:37,920
Speaker 1: them and say, hey, it's not your fault, it's because

740
00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:40,360
Speaker 1: you got involved in this this thing that has a

741
00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:43,239
Speaker 1: viral component, that that if you just start rolling the

742
00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:46,400
Speaker 1: dungeons and Dragons dice, if you start listening to this

743
00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:49,320
Speaker 1: heavy metal music, that it's just a slippery, slow to

744
00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:53,240
Speaker 1: just violent outbreaks in demanding possession. Yeah, and that leads

745
00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:55,520
Speaker 1: us to the West Memphis three. You want to talk

746
00:44:55,520 --> 00:44:58,080
Speaker 1: about them now, because I think that's certainly a case.

747
00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:01,480
Speaker 1: Even though it kind of it tends to fall towards

748
00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:05,040
Speaker 1: the end of the life cycle of satanic panic. Um,

749
00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:10,320
Speaker 1: it represents some of the worst, the worst residual effects

750
00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:14,240
Speaker 1: of satanic panic, at least on you know, an individual level.

751
00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:21,880
Speaker 1: So this happened in between I believe was the the

752
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:25,120
Speaker 1: the actual murders happened in ninety three, I think. And uh,

753
00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:29,320
Speaker 1: the trial lasted or there are multiple trials I believe

754
00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:33,680
Speaker 1: for two years. Um. But essentially, if you if you

755
00:45:33,719 --> 00:45:36,759
Speaker 1: want to know more about this, I highly suggest that

756
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:40,319
Speaker 1: you go watch these documentaries that they're called Paradise Lost,

757
00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:44,200
Speaker 1: Is that right? Uh? Yeah, And and they're really well

758
00:45:44,239 --> 00:45:49,080
Speaker 1: put together by a crew that was basically they're shooting

759
00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:53,200
Speaker 1: from the minute these guys were on trial. Uh. And

760
00:45:53,239 --> 00:45:58,239
Speaker 1: it it sort of documents the the cases throughout the

761
00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:01,160
Speaker 1: twenty years I met. Maybe I don't know, does the

762
00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:04,000
Speaker 1: I don't I haven't seen the last one. I don't

763
00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:05,920
Speaker 1: think I've seen. I don't know if it goes up

764
00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:09,520
Speaker 1: to then when these guys were released. But essentially, to

765
00:46:09,560 --> 00:46:12,719
Speaker 1: boil it down to its simplest terms, these three teenagers

766
00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:17,200
Speaker 1: in West Memphis, Arkansas were accused of, tried and convicted

767
00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:21,839
Speaker 1: from murdering three younger boys, and it was supposedly part

768
00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:25,480
Speaker 1: of a satanic ritual. Uh. These these three guys were

769
00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:29,600
Speaker 1: all fans of heavy metal. They looked the part uh,

770
00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:34,560
Speaker 1: and it was easy to place the blame on them. However,

771
00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:37,399
Speaker 1: in eleven UH, they were able to make a plea

772
00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:40,520
Speaker 1: for their innocence based on DNA that was recovered from

773
00:46:40,520 --> 00:46:45,640
Speaker 1: the scene, and they were released. Essentially, the judge said, UM,

774
00:46:45,719 --> 00:46:48,719
Speaker 1: you're you're you're guilty up to time served. Um, so

775
00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:53,280
Speaker 1: the time that they had served from until eleven and

776
00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:57,440
Speaker 1: and they're out. Now you've probably seen there's UH fictional

777
00:46:57,560 --> 00:47:03,160
Speaker 1: feature accounts of of this story. What's the movie that? Yeah,

778
00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:05,160
Speaker 1: it has a Reese Witherspoon in it as one of

779
00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:10,480
Speaker 1: the mothers of the victims. Um and Uh, Colin Firth

780
00:47:10,719 --> 00:47:15,000
Speaker 1: I believe plays a private investigator who's working on their

781
00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:18,000
Speaker 1: behalf to try to find evidence that that proves there.

782
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:20,960
Speaker 1: In a sense, it's a complex case, and it's it's

783
00:47:21,320 --> 00:47:23,799
Speaker 1: dreamly complicated. Yeah, that's why I don't feel like we

784
00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:27,360
Speaker 1: can really do it justice here without doing an entire episode.

785
00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:30,560
Speaker 1: If you have bungled investigations on one hand, you definitely

786
00:47:30,600 --> 00:47:33,560
Speaker 1: have satanic panic and play. Yeah, and there's all kinds

787
00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:37,040
Speaker 1: of stuff to the weird stuff that goes on between

788
00:47:37,120 --> 00:47:40,200
Speaker 1: some of the parents and the people making the documentary,

789
00:47:40,200 --> 00:47:44,040
Speaker 1: where the the filmmakers themselves sort of become part of

790
00:47:44,040 --> 00:47:47,640
Speaker 1: the story, and there's implications that maybe one or two

791
00:47:47,719 --> 00:47:49,960
Speaker 1: of the parents might have been involved in the actual

792
00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:55,480
Speaker 1: murders themselves. It's it's really confusing and disturbing, But ultimately

793
00:47:55,520 --> 00:47:58,359
Speaker 1: it comes down to that the three teenagers who were

794
00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:02,000
Speaker 1: convicted of these crimes were in fact innocent uh and

795
00:48:02,440 --> 00:48:06,880
Speaker 1: wrongfully put away for crimes they didn't commit. Yeah, of course, sadly,

796
00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:09,040
Speaker 1: crimes that we we do not we don't have an

797
00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:11,480
Speaker 1: answer for. We don't know who is responsible for exactly.

798
00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:14,280
Speaker 1: That's the sad part is that the person or persons

799
00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:18,200
Speaker 1: who did do it got away with it. But luckily,

800
00:48:18,239 --> 00:48:22,040
Speaker 1: as we said, this occurred towards the end of Satanic Panic,

801
00:48:22,080 --> 00:48:24,680
Speaker 1: as it's going out, as it's uh is, it's leaving

802
00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:30,400
Speaker 1: the public mindset and becoming far less of a media obsession. Uh.

803
00:48:30,480 --> 00:48:33,040
Speaker 1: And you might wonder what what caused that? What makes

804
00:48:33,080 --> 00:48:35,640
Speaker 1: us get away from that? What what creates a situation

805
00:48:35,719 --> 00:48:41,800
Speaker 1: so that by um, you see you see cases where

806
00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:45,279
Speaker 1: the media doesn't jump on the Satanic bandwagon four um

807
00:48:45,440 --> 00:48:47,800
Speaker 1: abuse charges at an elementary How do we get to

808
00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:52,399
Speaker 1: the point where by you have the Columbine shootings And

809
00:48:52,560 --> 00:48:55,319
Speaker 1: despite all the various theories that come up initially in

810
00:48:55,320 --> 00:48:59,000
Speaker 1: the wake of the awful incident, Satanism is not one

811
00:48:59,040 --> 00:49:02,000
Speaker 1: of them. Right, Yeah, that could have very easily have

812
00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:06,360
Speaker 1: been tagged within the Satanic Panic easily and if it

813
00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:11,319
Speaker 1: had occurred years earlier, no doubt it would have. Yeah. Absolutely. Uh.

814
00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:14,440
Speaker 1: There's this really interesting article that I read uh UM

815
00:49:14,560 --> 00:49:17,400
Speaker 1: called the Satanic Ritual Abuse Panic as a Religious Studies

816
00:49:17,480 --> 00:49:21,560
Speaker 1: data as part of the journal International Review for the

817
00:49:21,640 --> 00:49:24,400
Speaker 1: History of Religions that sort of this was written in

818
00:49:24,440 --> 00:49:28,760
Speaker 1: two thousand three that summarizes sort of the the entire

819
00:49:29,400 --> 00:49:32,359
Speaker 1: era of Satanic Panic and looks at this this sort

820
00:49:32,360 --> 00:49:35,920
Speaker 1: of ending phase, and their conclusion is there was no

821
00:49:36,400 --> 00:49:41,640
Speaker 1: evidence for abuse of Satanic cults existing. Uh, anything that

822
00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:46,520
Speaker 1: connected them as as ever existing, largely came from these

823
00:49:46,560 --> 00:49:51,000
Speaker 1: repressed memories uh and or they were extracted from small

824
00:49:51,080 --> 00:49:55,680
Speaker 1: children who then subsequently recovered from what happened to them

825
00:49:55,680 --> 00:49:59,680
Speaker 1: through the use of psychotherapy. But there there was there

826
00:49:59,719 --> 00:50:04,319
Speaker 1: was no actual, tenable forensic evidence that these groups ever

827
00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:10,240
Speaker 1: existed or responsible for these crimes. Uh and and uh.

828
00:50:10,280 --> 00:50:14,399
Speaker 1: There there's sort of a a sadder thing at play here,

829
00:50:14,440 --> 00:50:19,880
Speaker 1: I think, which is that, um, that human culture maybe

830
00:50:19,880 --> 00:50:24,600
Speaker 1: has a harder time dealing with child abuse or violence,

831
00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:28,560
Speaker 1: especially this this kind of you know, horrific violence, as

832
00:50:28,600 --> 00:50:33,080
Speaker 1: in the case of the West Memphis three especially sexual abuse, um,

833
00:50:33,120 --> 00:50:38,280
Speaker 1: without being able to place it into a fantastic narrative

834
00:50:38,320 --> 00:50:41,719
Speaker 1: that it is somehow outside of the every day And

835
00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:44,120
Speaker 1: that's the unfortunate part about this is that in a

836
00:50:44,120 --> 00:50:47,200
Speaker 1: lot of these cases where these children and people were

837
00:50:47,239 --> 00:50:52,000
Speaker 1: abused were hurt, um, oftentimes it was just their friends

838
00:50:52,040 --> 00:50:54,480
Speaker 1: or relatives, you know, it was that that is the

839
00:50:54,480 --> 00:50:57,000
Speaker 1: most disturbing thing of all, because you want to be

840
00:50:57,040 --> 00:50:59,680
Speaker 1: able to position that kind of thing outside of your

841
00:50:59,760 --> 00:51:01,799
Speaker 1: and the idiot sphere out you want to place it

842
00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:04,319
Speaker 1: on another and even if they look like you and

843
00:51:04,360 --> 00:51:06,319
Speaker 1: soon to be the same group, Like if the narrative is, oh,

844
00:51:06,320 --> 00:51:10,120
Speaker 1: well they're secretly a Satanist, that's far It's far easier

845
00:51:10,120 --> 00:51:12,520
Speaker 1: to wrap your head around, as fantastic as some of

846
00:51:12,560 --> 00:51:15,279
Speaker 1: the ramifications are, than to say, well, they're just this

847
00:51:15,360 --> 00:51:17,960
Speaker 1: person that we just thought were like us, someone that

848
00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:20,879
Speaker 1: lived within our sphere, within our family. Even Yeah, this,

849
00:51:20,880 --> 00:51:22,920
Speaker 1: this is a good quote that I liked from that

850
00:51:23,040 --> 00:51:28,240
Speaker 1: article that addresses that the author, whose last name is Frankfurter,

851
00:51:28,320 --> 00:51:29,879
Speaker 1: I don't know what his first name is. He says,

852
00:51:30,400 --> 00:51:33,840
Speaker 1: human memory psychologists have shown is clearly not a matter

853
00:51:33,920 --> 00:51:37,799
Speaker 1: of historical snapshots, even in the cases of trauma, and

854
00:51:37,880 --> 00:51:43,759
Speaker 1: it is enormously subject to suggestion, fantasy, social conditions, and

855
00:51:43,840 --> 00:51:47,480
Speaker 1: cultural nuances. So largely I think that's what we're talking

856
00:51:47,520 --> 00:51:49,480
Speaker 1: about here. Yeah, I mean, you basically had a situation

857
00:51:49,520 --> 00:51:52,840
Speaker 1: where the experts moved in, the actual experts, not the

858
00:51:53,200 --> 00:51:55,440
Speaker 1: ones that would appear on like the soralto Special, and

859
00:51:55,480 --> 00:51:58,040
Speaker 1: they said, look, it doesn't exist. You had people like

860
00:51:58,520 --> 00:52:02,480
Speaker 1: Kenneth Lanning, FBI lead investigator on these so called sex rings,

861
00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:04,680
Speaker 1: who is a skeptical of it from the beginning and

862
00:52:04,680 --> 00:52:06,720
Speaker 1: then was an outspoken critic of it in the media.

863
00:52:07,120 --> 00:52:10,960
Speaker 1: Yet study of ritual crime allegations sponsored by the National

864
00:52:11,000 --> 00:52:14,360
Speaker 1: Center on Child Abuse and Neglect, and it discredited virtually

865
00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:18,000
Speaker 1: everything um as a massive study, and they only found

866
00:52:18,000 --> 00:52:22,600
Speaker 1: a very few cases of loan or or paired perpetrators

867
00:52:22,680 --> 00:52:26,879
Speaker 1: using ritualized tactics to intimidate children or thrilled themselves. And

868
00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:30,960
Speaker 1: they looked at twelve thousand incidents and they couldn't find

869
00:52:31,040 --> 00:52:34,600
Speaker 1: a single one that provided evidence quote of a well

870
00:52:34,719 --> 00:52:39,120
Speaker 1: organized intergenerational Satanic cult who's sexually molested and tortured children

871
00:52:39,120 --> 00:52:41,520
Speaker 1: in their homes or schools for years and committed a

872
00:52:41,520 --> 00:52:45,640
Speaker 1: series of murders unquote. So UK studies end up backing

873
00:52:45,640 --> 00:52:49,120
Speaker 1: this up. The ming Martin preschool case falls apart. So

874
00:52:49,160 --> 00:52:51,840
Speaker 1: the media begins to realize, oh, well, there isn't anything

875
00:52:51,960 --> 00:52:55,200
Speaker 1: to this story. This is uh. They start talking to

876
00:52:55,239 --> 00:52:59,040
Speaker 1: the actual experts, and that the discrediting of Satanic panic

877
00:52:59,320 --> 00:53:04,360
Speaker 1: becomes the media narrative for a while, effectively killing it

878
00:53:04,400 --> 00:53:06,640
Speaker 1: off at least in the United States. But then, of

879
00:53:06,640 --> 00:53:09,960
Speaker 1: course you have lingering elements of it that remain in

880
00:53:10,000 --> 00:53:13,440
Speaker 1: other areas, particular in South Africa, for years to fall. Yeah,

881
00:53:13,520 --> 00:53:15,600
Speaker 1: and so one of the things that I think is

882
00:53:15,640 --> 00:53:19,040
Speaker 1: an interesting question for us to sort of pose to

883
00:53:19,120 --> 00:53:22,719
Speaker 1: ourselves and to the audience is is uh so we

884
00:53:22,880 --> 00:53:27,920
Speaker 1: have had these uh moments of hysteria throughout human history,

885
00:53:28,000 --> 00:53:32,279
Speaker 1: you know, UM satanic panic. Uh. One of the ones

886
00:53:32,320 --> 00:53:33,840
Speaker 1: that comes to mind for me is something that I

887
00:53:33,920 --> 00:53:36,560
Speaker 1: researched here for a video that we did about, um,

888
00:53:36,600 --> 00:53:40,239
Speaker 1: the Pokemon panic in Japan in the late nineties. There

889
00:53:40,280 --> 00:53:42,960
Speaker 1: was this idea that there was an incident where an

890
00:53:42,960 --> 00:53:48,200
Speaker 1: episode of Pokemon supposedly caused seizures kids and then like this,

891
00:53:48,640 --> 00:53:50,560
Speaker 1: I believe it was something like I can't remember the

892
00:53:50,640 --> 00:53:52,640
Speaker 1: exact statistics off the top of my head, but something

893
00:53:52,680 --> 00:53:56,160
Speaker 1: like three thousand kids overnight claimed that they all had seizures.

894
00:53:56,560 --> 00:53:59,080
Speaker 1: So these kinds of you know, like like we were

895
00:53:59,080 --> 00:54:01,840
Speaker 1: talking about early or about how our memory and trauma

896
00:54:02,000 --> 00:54:07,120
Speaker 1: is susceptible to suggestion and cultural nuances. Um, they recur

897
00:54:07,239 --> 00:54:10,680
Speaker 1: over and over again in human history. But I can't

898
00:54:10,719 --> 00:54:15,440
Speaker 1: really remember a large incident of that in the last

899
00:54:15,840 --> 00:54:23,719
Speaker 1: I don't know decade other than Ebolabola and UH and vaccines.

900
00:54:23,920 --> 00:54:28,640
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, okay, yeah, movement, Well, I guess on both

901
00:54:28,680 --> 00:54:32,719
Speaker 1: sides depending Yeah, yeah, so it's kind of fascinating they

902
00:54:32,760 --> 00:54:36,279
Speaker 1: have in neither of those I think really got the

903
00:54:36,360 --> 00:54:39,759
Speaker 1: traction that stuff like satanic panic did. And I don't

904
00:54:39,760 --> 00:54:43,640
Speaker 1: know why that is. Um it's interesting to think about, though,

905
00:54:43,680 --> 00:54:47,480
Speaker 1: you know, is it is it because of the proliferation

906
00:54:47,560 --> 00:54:52,040
Speaker 1: of social media it spreads information faster and further, or

907
00:54:52,160 --> 00:54:55,359
Speaker 1: is it uh, simply because you know, mass media has

908
00:54:55,400 --> 00:54:58,440
Speaker 1: been around long enough now that there's somewhat of an

909
00:54:58,440 --> 00:55:03,279
Speaker 1: innoculation maybe against the hysteria that can be spread by it.

910
00:55:03,360 --> 00:55:06,840
Speaker 1: I'm not sure. Well, there's certainly more voices in the media. Yeah,

911
00:55:06,880 --> 00:55:09,799
Speaker 1: I mean they're more they're more channels. There are more

912
00:55:09,800 --> 00:55:13,040
Speaker 1: people on the channels talking constantly about the subject matter.

913
00:55:13,160 --> 00:55:17,560
Speaker 1: So uh yeah, maybe there's uh maybe maybe our our

914
00:55:17,600 --> 00:55:22,640
Speaker 1: media is less susceptible to long term um panic with

915
00:55:22,760 --> 00:55:26,840
Speaker 1: no grounded evidence. Yeah, it does. It does make you

916
00:55:26,880 --> 00:55:31,600
Speaker 1: wonder like, could could something like which trials or Satanic

917
00:55:31,600 --> 00:55:36,240
Speaker 1: panic happen today? You know, would are we as humans

918
00:55:37,040 --> 00:55:39,920
Speaker 1: uh susceptible to that? Still? I have a feeling we are.

919
00:55:40,040 --> 00:55:42,120
Speaker 1: I think it's a lot of it comes down to

920
00:55:43,680 --> 00:55:47,560
Speaker 1: the particular environment that we find ourselves in and uh

921
00:55:48,080 --> 00:55:50,399
Speaker 1: and hopefully I mean hopefully we are a little less

922
00:55:50,440 --> 00:55:53,120
Speaker 1: susceptible to it, just based on how much information is

923
00:55:53,120 --> 00:55:56,080
Speaker 1: out there. It just comes down to how much information

924
00:55:56,080 --> 00:56:00,160
Speaker 1: are we willing to ignore to support this uh, this

925
00:56:00,280 --> 00:56:03,239
Speaker 1: this this script for what has happened or what could

926
00:56:03,320 --> 00:56:08,319
Speaker 1: happen to us that fulfill some need to either make

927
00:56:08,440 --> 00:56:14,799
Speaker 1: the danger more tolerable, more palpable. You know. It's like,

928
00:56:14,800 --> 00:56:17,840
Speaker 1: like we were saying, is sometimes the the more outrageous

929
00:56:17,920 --> 00:56:21,360
Speaker 1: explanation or something is more attractive because it's it's easier

930
00:56:21,400 --> 00:56:25,120
Speaker 1: to handle because it's it's it's you position it outside

931
00:56:25,320 --> 00:56:27,880
Speaker 1: of your sphere and it has lines and boundaries that

932
00:56:28,360 --> 00:56:32,239
Speaker 1: you can sort of use to yeah to again like

933
00:56:32,280 --> 00:56:34,760
Speaker 1: stick to the narratives, stick to the strip, to the script,

934
00:56:35,239 --> 00:56:39,880
Speaker 1: and um somewhat try to understand experiences that are so

935
00:56:39,920 --> 00:56:43,920
Speaker 1: horrifying that normally otherwise you wouldn't be able to understand them.

936
00:56:43,960 --> 00:56:47,680
Speaker 1: All right, So there you have it, Satanic panic. Um.

937
00:56:47,800 --> 00:56:50,200
Speaker 1: We took you through it from the beginning to the

938
00:56:50,320 --> 00:56:52,560
Speaker 1: end of it. Uh, And we would love to hear

939
00:56:52,600 --> 00:56:55,319
Speaker 1: from any of you out there who, like us, have

940
00:56:56,120 --> 00:56:59,080
Speaker 1: some element of their childhood immersed in the world of

941
00:56:59,160 --> 00:57:02,960
Speaker 1: Satanic panic, or if you came about after Satanic Panic.

942
00:57:03,160 --> 00:57:05,160
Speaker 1: But we'd love to hear, you know, an outsider's take

943
00:57:05,200 --> 00:57:07,439
Speaker 1: on on all of this, UM, like, do you see

944
00:57:07,480 --> 00:57:10,279
Speaker 1: any of these elements at work in your in your

945
00:57:10,320 --> 00:57:12,919
Speaker 1: modern world? Um? If you would like to learn more,

946
00:57:13,080 --> 00:57:15,560
Speaker 1: check out the landing page for this episode, it's Stuff

947
00:57:15,560 --> 00:57:18,120
Speaker 1: to Blow your Mind dot com. I'll conclude links out

948
00:57:18,160 --> 00:57:20,520
Speaker 1: to some of the resources that we mentioned and what

949
00:57:20,560 --> 00:57:23,520
Speaker 1: about you, sir? You can find me personally at Christian

950
00:57:23,600 --> 00:57:27,680
Speaker 1: Sager dot tumbler dot com. UH and UH for the

951
00:57:27,720 --> 00:57:31,800
Speaker 1: how Stuff Works content that I produce, I am primarily

952
00:57:31,880 --> 00:57:34,400
Speaker 1: working on the brain stuff YouTube channel. If you haven't

953
00:57:34,440 --> 00:57:36,840
Speaker 1: seen that yet, check it out. That's our general science channel,

954
00:57:37,360 --> 00:57:39,280
Speaker 1: UH and I also work on the main how Stuff

955
00:57:39,280 --> 00:57:41,760
Speaker 1: Works YouTube channel as well, where we're producing shows like

956
00:57:41,800 --> 00:57:45,160
Speaker 1: what the Stuff UH and interviews and content like that

957
00:57:45,440 --> 00:57:48,320
Speaker 1: cool cool. Thanks once again to Christian for joining me

958
00:57:48,400 --> 00:57:50,040
Speaker 1: here UH and in the meantime, you want to get

959
00:57:50,040 --> 00:57:51,560
Speaker 1: in touch with me, you can reach out to Stuff

960
00:57:51,600 --> 00:57:56,560
Speaker 1: to Blow your Mind at how stuff Works dot com

961
00:57:56,600 --> 00:57:59,000
Speaker 1: for more on this and thousands of other topics. Because

962
00:57:59,040 --> 00:58:03,040
Speaker 1: it how stuff works come, we can go get gobn

963
00:58:03,080 --> 00:58:04,280
Speaker 1: go get me