1 00:00:04,320 --> 00:00:07,760 Speaker 1: On this episode of news World. The World We Wish 2 00:00:07,920 --> 00:00:11,799 Speaker 1: is a novel that follows the character Huigen Show, China's 3 00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:15,960 Speaker 1: architect of artificial intelligence, who sees the metaverse as a 4 00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:19,639 Speaker 1: new world to conquer. It's a fictional story, but it 5 00:00:19,720 --> 00:00:22,279 Speaker 1: could mirror a real life, and I thought it would 6 00:00:22,280 --> 00:00:25,960 Speaker 1: be really intriguing to discuss the world of artificial intelligence 7 00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:29,400 Speaker 1: and what we all ought to understand about it. So 8 00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:33,280 Speaker 1: I'm really pleased to welcome back my guest author, John Moody. 9 00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:39,000 Speaker 1: John has lived and worked in New York, Moscow, Paris, Bonn, Warsaw, Mexico, 10 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:42,400 Speaker 1: Costa Rica, and Rome, among other places. He helped start 11 00:00:42,440 --> 00:00:45,559 Speaker 1: the Fox News Channel, and he's joining me today to 12 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:49,000 Speaker 1: discuss his new novel, The World We Wish, which is 13 00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:52,600 Speaker 1: a sequel to his novel. Of course they knew by 14 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:54,720 Speaker 1: the way I thought. Of course they knew. It was 15 00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:59,360 Speaker 1: a remarkable novel that gave you very logical, very plausible 16 00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 1: insights into the whole development of COVID. I thought John 17 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:14,760 Speaker 1: would be particularly insightful and helpful. John, thank you for 18 00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:17,720 Speaker 1: joining me again on Newtsworld. Always a pleasure. Thank you 19 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:21,840 Speaker 1: for having me talk distriment about your decision to put 20 00:01:21,880 --> 00:01:25,360 Speaker 1: all this in the context of fiction. Even though you 21 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:29,280 Speaker 1: have an enormous amount of background data. I was determined 22 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:33,679 Speaker 1: to use real world information that is available to many people. 23 00:01:34,160 --> 00:01:35,520 Speaker 1: You don't have to be a spy, you don't have 24 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:37,440 Speaker 1: to wear a trench coat to get hold of this stuff. 25 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:42,480 Speaker 1: There are about a hundred English language websites and chat 26 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:47,400 Speaker 1: rooms in China itself, and they can be accessed, so 27 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:50,520 Speaker 1: I wanted to keep it real. I also wanted to 28 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 1: protect the people who had been good enough to share 29 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:56,640 Speaker 1: information with me, and I certainly didn't want to put 30 00:01:56,680 --> 00:01:59,760 Speaker 1: any of them in the crosshairs of the Chinese Communist Party, 31 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:03,240 Speaker 1: which does not like dissenting views, and it certainly doesn't 32 00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:06,040 Speaker 1: like Metalsome Americans tell us a little bit about the 33 00:02:06,120 --> 00:02:09,720 Speaker 1: rapid rise of artificial intelligence, which really begins, I guess 34 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:14,280 Speaker 1: around nineteen fifty with theseus a small robotic mouse that 35 00:02:14,480 --> 00:02:17,440 Speaker 1: was developed that could navigate a pretty simple maze and 36 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:20,639 Speaker 1: remember the course. But since then it has been continuous 37 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:24,079 Speaker 1: effort across a broad ridge. Chat with us about what 38 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:27,959 Speaker 1: you see in the rise of artificial intelligence. I think 39 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:32,800 Speaker 1: that artificial intelligence has the potential to be what electricity 40 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:36,680 Speaker 1: was in the early twentieth century. The world changes when 41 00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:40,960 Speaker 1: you start to get your ideas, get your knowledge, make 42 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:45,160 Speaker 1: new discoveries, and it's all inside a machine. What you're 43 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:47,680 Speaker 1: doing is pushing the buttons on the machine or whatever. 44 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:52,360 Speaker 1: The current mode of control is artificial intelligence. You're correct 45 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:55,919 Speaker 1: that it began in its infancy in the nineteen fifties. 46 00:02:56,440 --> 00:03:00,400 Speaker 1: It has in the past twenty years, I would say, 47 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:07,640 Speaker 1: developed in such a fast and unpredictable form that the world, 48 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:12,440 Speaker 1: by and large, we don't know what artificial intelligence can do. 49 00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:15,919 Speaker 1: We know some of the breakthroughs that have taken place, 50 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:19,480 Speaker 1: but the potential, and this is what I worry about 51 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:23,800 Speaker 1: in my book, The potential for using artificial intelligence for 52 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 1: control of people, control of entire societies, in fact, is 53 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:34,120 Speaker 1: very very real. Many of the American experts I use 54 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:38,200 Speaker 1: that term expert with some disdain, but many Americans who 55 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:41,800 Speaker 1: know about artificial intelligence tell us that there is some 56 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:45,320 Speaker 1: danger to it, but then continue on with their research 57 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:50,040 Speaker 1: as though everybody is united in a good cause and 58 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:53,080 Speaker 1: want to share information with each other, pretty much the 59 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:55,960 Speaker 1: way school kids used to share their homework. That's not 60 00:03:56,040 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 1: what's going on in China. China is determined to use 61 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:05,760 Speaker 1: its vast, almost insurpassable advantage in artificial intelligence research and 62 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:11,560 Speaker 1: applications to gain control of the world. Zuckerberg says he 63 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:13,200 Speaker 1: thinks will be a time when we'll live most of 64 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:15,840 Speaker 1: our lives in the metaverse. What does he mean by that? 65 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:18,480 Speaker 1: And do you think that's plausible? Well, I'm going to 66 00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:20,640 Speaker 1: stand back and hold my arm out and say you 67 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 1: go first. Mark. The metaverse began in a rather clunky fashion, 68 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:31,279 Speaker 1: cartoon characters, simple gains that could be played, pretend visits 69 00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 1: to cities like Paris or Beijing for that matter. I 70 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:38,200 Speaker 1: tried it once a couple of years ago. Put one 71 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:40,920 Speaker 1: of those head bands around me. You know, it makes 72 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:43,680 Speaker 1: you look like a platypus. But it suddenly had me 73 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:47,160 Speaker 1: up in the air and I was very uncomfortable with it, 74 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 1: and I ended up on my bottom on the floor, 75 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:52,120 Speaker 1: saying what just happened. I know I'm not the most 76 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:55,720 Speaker 1: adventurous sort, perhaps, but the metaverse, even then when I 77 00:04:55,760 --> 00:05:00,240 Speaker 1: was trying it, those headsets do betray you. They fool 78 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:03,599 Speaker 1: your brain, They make you think you're someplace else. Now, 79 00:05:03,839 --> 00:05:07,680 Speaker 1: the recent developments that I'm hearing about taking place in 80 00:05:07,839 --> 00:05:13,600 Speaker 1: China are to my mind quite horrifying. Just the other week, Apple, 81 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:18,000 Speaker 1: which has a medical division, announced that it had perfected 82 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:24,120 Speaker 1: a microscopic robot which could be inserted into the bloodstream 83 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:30,560 Speaker 1: to attack specific cancerous cells, and if so, then God 84 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:32,560 Speaker 1: bless them. It would be great to be able to 85 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:36,120 Speaker 1: have an effective tool against cancerous cells. The idea, though, 86 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:40,360 Speaker 1: that it would be injected into your bloodstream, is not 87 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:46,160 Speaker 1: solely the territory of Apple. The Chinese are already trying 88 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:54,160 Speaker 1: to use microscopic and subbicroscopic robots to inject into humans 89 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 1: to put them in the Metaverse, without the use of 90 00:05:57,000 --> 00:06:00,240 Speaker 1: any kind of visual headband or pretend stuff like that. 91 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:05,280 Speaker 1: They want people to get in the metaverse and really live, 92 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:10,000 Speaker 1: as Zuckerberg rather dangerously said, live most of their lives 93 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:12,919 Speaker 1: there because it's easier to control them. The technology I 94 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:16,200 Speaker 1: played with ten years ago is pretty old by the 95 00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:20,600 Speaker 1: current standard, but it felt very artificial and didn't particularly 96 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:23,880 Speaker 1: offer any great net advantage. I mean, zoom offers a 97 00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 1: net advantage, or group meetings offers a net advantage, but 98 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:31,200 Speaker 1: that's actually just enhancing humans. It's not in any significant 99 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:35,960 Speaker 1: way of replacing them, absolutely right. The difference between those 100 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:39,360 Speaker 1: forms of communication and the metaverse is that you can 101 00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 1: or pretend that you are whoever you want to be. 102 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:46,440 Speaker 1: In the metaverse. The term used to be avatars you 103 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:49,760 Speaker 1: look like Brad Pitt or Marilyn Monroe or something like that, 104 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:53,080 Speaker 1: good luck, but that term has gone into disuse and 105 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:57,160 Speaker 1: actually disdain. Now people refer to themselves as their quinns, 106 00:06:57,800 --> 00:07:01,880 Speaker 1: and the quinns is short for quintessential. You are at 107 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:04,960 Speaker 1: your very best, You are everything you had ever hoped for, 108 00:07:05,279 --> 00:07:07,400 Speaker 1: and that is how you present yourself to the rest 109 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:11,880 Speaker 1: of the metaverse. There are much more sophisticated gains and 110 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:16,680 Speaker 1: situations into which you put yourself and you have to 111 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:22,400 Speaker 1: pay real money, sometimes cryptocurrency, and that's another story to 112 00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:28,120 Speaker 1: stay in these situations with other quinns. And I've now 113 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:31,280 Speaker 1: read stories of things that are being done in China 114 00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:36,240 Speaker 1: that are not publicized, where you become the virtual and 115 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 1: I use this term with a certain amount of trepidation, 116 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:43,600 Speaker 1: where you become the virtual slave of another member of 117 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:48,720 Speaker 1: this situation where you have put yourself. It's troubling, it's 118 00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:52,320 Speaker 1: certainly politically incorrect, but that's what's going on in China. 119 00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 1: And that's just a test case because they have about 120 00:07:56,280 --> 00:07:58,840 Speaker 1: seven billion people that they'd like to put in exactly 121 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:19,080 Speaker 1: that situation. I know the Chinese have used a massive 122 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 1: amount of artificial intelligence data analysis, for example, for facial recognition, 123 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 1: and that the degree to which they track people is astonishing, 124 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:32,680 Speaker 1: But that's in a sense enhancing your knowledge of the 125 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:36,000 Speaker 1: real world as opposed to an artificial world. And as 126 00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:37,760 Speaker 1: part of that real world thing, I want to bring 127 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:40,599 Speaker 1: up something which has become a much hotter topic in 128 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:42,840 Speaker 1: the last few weeks, and that is the role of 129 00:08:42,880 --> 00:08:46,280 Speaker 1: TikTok and all of this. TikTok has a whole series 130 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:51,600 Speaker 1: of built in devices that allow the Chinese communists to 131 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:56,480 Speaker 1: track and identify Americans on a scale that we would 132 00:08:56,520 --> 00:08:59,720 Speaker 1: have thought was an absolute violation of our civil liberty 133 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:02,320 Speaker 1: if our own government was doing it. Certainly, if our 134 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:04,400 Speaker 1: own government was doing it, there would be a lot 135 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:07,160 Speaker 1: more said about it, and a lot more caution and 136 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:11,840 Speaker 1: probably a lot more protests. Look newt TikTok is owned 137 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:15,360 Speaker 1: by a Chinese company. The Chinese company reports to the 138 00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:20,280 Speaker 1: Communist Party of China. The Communist Party of China is China. 139 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 1: I worry intensely. Really, Americans used to be common sense people. 140 00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:30,040 Speaker 1: We used to enter New situations with a certain caution, 141 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:33,559 Speaker 1: even a certain skepticism, because we wanted to make sure 142 00:09:33,640 --> 00:09:36,840 Speaker 1: that we were doing something both good for us and 143 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:43,160 Speaker 1: not dangerous. We've become a soft people that just assume 144 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:48,120 Speaker 1: that we have rights, and that assumption includes anything that's 145 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:51,400 Speaker 1: on the market, anything that they can buy. They just 146 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 1: assume is safe. Someone must have looked at this, someone 147 00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 1: probably knows that it's safe. And the unfortunate thing is 148 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:03,559 Speaker 1: as soon as you sign into TikTok, and I fully 149 00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:06,160 Speaker 1: admit I have not done so, but as soon as 150 00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:10,000 Speaker 1: you sign into TikTok, you're giving away certain information, among 151 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:14,200 Speaker 1: other things, your location, and that is transmitted right back 152 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:16,680 Speaker 1: to its storage center. I don't know where that is, 153 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:18,880 Speaker 1: by the way, but I believe it's in China. And 154 00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:24,600 Speaker 1: every dance that you video yourself doing, every conversation that 155 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:27,040 Speaker 1: you have with somebody else that you put into your 156 00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:30,960 Speaker 1: TikTok file, these are all recorded. These are all kept 157 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:33,880 Speaker 1: on file, and they can be used in any way, 158 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:36,640 Speaker 1: not just that TikTok wants to use them, but that 159 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:39,640 Speaker 1: Shi Jinping and the Communist Party want to use them. 160 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:44,280 Speaker 1: We're letting ourselves be fooled on the assumption that because 161 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:48,080 Speaker 1: it's cool right now to be on TikTok. It's also safe. 162 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:50,360 Speaker 1: I mean, would you join those who think it ought 163 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:54,080 Speaker 1: to be banned. Absolutely. I think Governor nom did exactly 164 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:57,280 Speaker 1: the right thing leading the way saying that no state 165 00:10:57,320 --> 00:11:00,840 Speaker 1: department of South Dakota can use TikTok. I believe that 166 00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:04,120 Speaker 1: Governor Abbott in Texas has just followed suit in that, yes, 167 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:07,640 Speaker 1: politicians and government leaders can only restrict the things that 168 00:11:07,760 --> 00:11:12,240 Speaker 1: government websites and government employees do. They can't just single 169 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:15,120 Speaker 1: handedly ban people from doing it. That would take an 170 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:17,440 Speaker 1: Act of Congress. It might even take something brave coming 171 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:20,120 Speaker 1: from the White House. But I don't think President Biden 172 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:22,800 Speaker 1: is going to want to infuriate that many young voters 173 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:25,800 Speaker 1: by telling them their favorite toy is no longer available. 174 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:29,960 Speaker 1: Couldn't you create an American parallel. It's just technology. It's 175 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:34,320 Speaker 1: just technology. It has to be received by its audience, 176 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:36,880 Speaker 1: and you can't generalize on anything. But I think most 177 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:40,720 Speaker 1: TikTok users are, with due respect, mister speaker, younger than 178 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:43,439 Speaker 1: you and I, and they think it's cool. It's the fad, 179 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:46,720 Speaker 1: it's the current, it's the pet rock of the twenty 180 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:51,520 Speaker 1: ten and twenty twenty generation, and it might produce great 181 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:55,240 Speaker 1: quality videos of people dancing and hanging their tongues out 182 00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:59,280 Speaker 1: and saying incautious things. But don't ever believe that it 183 00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:02,360 Speaker 1: then gets leaded after ten hours. It doesn't. One of 184 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:06,679 Speaker 1: the things I've noticed about China is a increasing number 185 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:12,200 Speaker 1: of articles arguing that artificial intelligence will revolutionize warfare, which 186 00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:14,679 Speaker 1: I suspect is true, although I don't fully understand it. 187 00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 1: How do you see that playing out? I do offer 188 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:21,120 Speaker 1: a slight insight into how it could be used in 189 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:26,120 Speaker 1: this new book, The World We Wish, where drones have 190 00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:31,160 Speaker 1: been turned over to the control of artificial intelligence. The 191 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:35,480 Speaker 1: problem with letting AI control the drones, especially if they're weaponized, 192 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:38,640 Speaker 1: is there is no sense of balance. There is no 193 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:42,640 Speaker 1: idea of mercy, There is no idea of excuse the 194 00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:45,680 Speaker 1: term overkill. And there's a scene in the book where 195 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:50,760 Speaker 1: exactly what you fear might happen happens. Because artificial intelligence 196 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:57,080 Speaker 1: is so powerful and is becoming so sophisticated, so quickly sophisticated, 197 00:12:57,440 --> 00:13:00,400 Speaker 1: it's almost inevitable that it's going to be used in warfare. 198 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:04,200 Speaker 1: And of course we're seeing drone warfare now in Ukraine 199 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:07,400 Speaker 1: on both sides. Drones are killing people. They might be 200 00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:09,480 Speaker 1: controlled by humans for now, but that doesn't mean that 201 00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:11,680 Speaker 1: they always will be. There's going to be a computer 202 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:15,840 Speaker 1: or an AI program that is smarter than humans and 203 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:18,120 Speaker 1: that'll be used. I was very struck in the last 204 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:21,920 Speaker 1: few days that the Ukrainians apparently are now manufacturing their 205 00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:26,360 Speaker 1: own drones and have actually started hitting targets inside Russia. 206 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:28,480 Speaker 1: It's just one more tribute to a people that have 207 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:31,640 Speaker 1: been underestimated for a very long time and are now 208 00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:34,680 Speaker 1: showing themselves to be heroic in ways that I wish 209 00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:38,520 Speaker 1: Americans could easily say we are too. We underestimate the 210 00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:43,520 Speaker 1: innovation potential. The Chinese in July launched the first artificial 211 00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:47,960 Speaker 1: intelligence operating ship, which was an onmanned carrier capable of 212 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:51,840 Speaker 1: launching dozens of drones. It's named the Juhai Yun, and 213 00:13:52,679 --> 00:13:55,559 Speaker 1: it navigates autonomously. It's two hundred and ninety feet long 214 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:59,400 Speaker 1: and forty five feet wide twenty ft deep. And you 215 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:01,320 Speaker 1: look at that and then you think about the size 216 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:05,320 Speaker 1: of our nuclear powered aircraft carriers. Three or four of these, 217 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:09,440 Speaker 1: which are pretty cheap, filled up with drones, could well 218 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:12,320 Speaker 1: be an overmatch for an aircraft carrier. I think that's 219 00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:16,840 Speaker 1: entirely true. Aircraft carriers, though very powerful tools of war, 220 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:22,200 Speaker 1: are somewhat outdated, and drones are just beginning to show 221 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:26,480 Speaker 1: their potential as weapons of war. The particular drone carrier 222 00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:29,200 Speaker 1: that you referred to, I've seen stuff about that. It 223 00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:32,840 Speaker 1: reminds me of the early Star Wars movies. George Lucas 224 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:37,920 Speaker 1: used to start every movie off with this incredibly huge 225 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:42,200 Speaker 1: spaceship coming into the picture, dominating the picture. It almost 226 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:46,440 Speaker 1: awed the audience just by the size and scope of it. 227 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:48,120 Speaker 1: I think that's what we're going to be seeing with 228 00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:51,640 Speaker 1: drone carriers. They will be so large and be able 229 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:54,600 Speaker 1: to send out so many drones, most of them armed, 230 00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:57,720 Speaker 1: that our idea of how safe we are on an 231 00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 1: aircraft carrier might change for the word very soon. I'm 232 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:05,240 Speaker 1: shocked on three fronts. One that our education systems now 233 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:09,640 Speaker 1: so bad that I don't quite see how we successfully 234 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:13,680 Speaker 1: compete in the world of artificial intelligence. Two that our 235 00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:18,320 Speaker 1: military procurement is so slow and bureaucratic and cumbersome. I 236 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:20,800 Speaker 1: don't see how we keep up with the scale of change. 237 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:26,080 Speaker 1: And three that this really requires a fundamental just as 238 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:29,440 Speaker 1: the rise of airplanes or the rise of vehicles like tanks. 239 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:32,480 Speaker 1: This is going to require a really fundamental rethinking of 240 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:35,680 Speaker 1: all of our doctrines and all of our assumptions, because 241 00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:39,000 Speaker 1: not just the physical kinetic kill kind of thing where 242 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:41,440 Speaker 1: you have a drone or you have an autonomous tank. 243 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:43,680 Speaker 1: I mean I think soon or later, somebody, for example, 244 00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:47,240 Speaker 1: is going to close down all of our ATMs, and Americans, 245 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:49,960 Speaker 1: faced with forty eight hours of no cash, are going 246 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:53,560 Speaker 1: to suddenly be really unhappy. It could probably happen at 247 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:56,920 Speaker 1: any minute. Newd And we've seen some attacks. Apparently they 248 00:15:56,920 --> 00:16:00,280 Speaker 1: were domestic attacks on the electrical infrastructure in South care Lina, 249 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:02,720 Speaker 1: which knocked them out for a while. That's just a 250 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:06,320 Speaker 1: child's game. What the Chinese probably and I don't have 251 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:09,800 Speaker 1: absolute evidence of this, but what they are probably working 252 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:15,200 Speaker 1: on are attacks against our infrastructure, exactly like the kind 253 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:18,680 Speaker 1: that you mentioned, exactly like the kind that Russia is 254 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:22,200 Speaker 1: trying to put out of reach for Ukraine. These need 255 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:24,880 Speaker 1: not be missile strikes. They could be done by a computer. 256 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:29,160 Speaker 1: They could be done by an AI operator that is 257 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:33,800 Speaker 1: thinking thousands of times faster and wider than any human 258 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:36,920 Speaker 1: could ever hope to. And when the Chinese begin to 259 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:39,720 Speaker 1: do that, whether they think that that's the right way 260 00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 1: to get us to let them have Taiwan, or whether 261 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:46,400 Speaker 1: they are just tired of carrying our debt, or whether 262 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:49,200 Speaker 1: they want to see just how good their military is. 263 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:52,880 Speaker 1: Remember President Putin thought his military was unstoppable, and he's 264 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:55,240 Speaker 1: now found out different. The Chinese don't want to make 265 00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:58,200 Speaker 1: that mistake. The electrical grid and the energy grid of 266 00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:00,320 Speaker 1: the United States might be a very appealing to target. 267 00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 1: There's a whole range of things that are I think, 268 00:17:04,080 --> 00:17:09,320 Speaker 1: pretty sobering. We're far too relaxed and far too self 269 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:12,840 Speaker 1: reassuring for the scale of danger that's coming down the road. 270 00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:17,520 Speaker 1: I absolutely agree. The generation of my grandparents, which goes 271 00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:20,960 Speaker 1: back now to the early twentieth century, I remember hearing 272 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:23,720 Speaker 1: stories about how they would go out and hunt their food. 273 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:27,359 Speaker 1: They would have hens that laid eggs in their own garage. 274 00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:30,360 Speaker 1: These are the kind of things that Americans scoff at 275 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:32,800 Speaker 1: now and just say, oh gosh, you know, heelbillies. It 276 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:35,360 Speaker 1: might be the future, not just the past. If we 277 00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:39,040 Speaker 1: don't understand that there are challenges to our way of life. 278 00:17:39,359 --> 00:17:42,639 Speaker 1: Americans have to grow up, We have to become adults 279 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:46,119 Speaker 1: as we used to be and understand that the world 280 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:48,920 Speaker 1: is a tough place. It is not full of our 281 00:17:49,119 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 1: friends and supporters and lovers. It is a place where 282 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:56,280 Speaker 1: we are in many ways and many places hated, and 283 00:17:56,320 --> 00:18:00,680 Speaker 1: we are prime targets for destruction if we don't rethink 284 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:02,439 Speaker 1: the way we look at the rest of the world 285 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:20,400 Speaker 1: and get a little bit of adulthood. Is what led 286 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:24,320 Speaker 1: you to decide to follow up with the World we wish? Well? 287 00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:27,840 Speaker 1: Thank you for asking, without any self congratulations. I had 288 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:31,800 Speaker 1: so much information in putting together. Of course they knew 289 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:34,360 Speaker 1: a lot of it. I just couldn't use. Nobody wants 290 00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:37,200 Speaker 1: a twelve hundred page book. I'm not Hilary Mantle. And 291 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:40,080 Speaker 1: I wanted to continue the story of at least three 292 00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:42,719 Speaker 1: of the characters that I introduced in Of course they 293 00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:47,159 Speaker 1: knew I've done that. Their stories were interesting enough to 294 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:50,560 Speaker 1: me that I thought they were worthy of continuation. And 295 00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:54,359 Speaker 1: then as I learned more and more about China's artificial 296 00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:57,760 Speaker 1: intelligence advantage over the rest of the world, and it's 297 00:18:57,800 --> 00:18:59,880 Speaker 1: not just over the United States, it's over the entire 298 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:03,320 Speaker 1: rest of the world, we might, truthfully might never be 299 00:19:03,359 --> 00:19:06,280 Speaker 1: able to catch up, And so I wanted to introduce 300 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:10,360 Speaker 1: that threat, by which I mean a literary threat, so 301 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:13,479 Speaker 1: that readers take it seriously and begin to understand that 302 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:15,800 Speaker 1: we're in a tough spot right now and we need 303 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:19,080 Speaker 1: to react like the superpower that we are. And never 304 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:21,439 Speaker 1: mind all this talk about well, you know, is it 305 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:23,920 Speaker 1: racist to be against China? Is it this? Or that 306 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:26,959 Speaker 1: China is not our friend? And I wanted to make 307 00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:29,320 Speaker 1: that point very clearly. I also have a good piece 308 00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:31,439 Speaker 1: of the book devoted to what they're doing to the 309 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:36,920 Speaker 1: weager minority population in China. They are effectively committing genocide 310 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:40,760 Speaker 1: against these Muslim minorities in their own country. I wanted 311 00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:44,600 Speaker 1: to make people understand that the forces against which we 312 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:50,600 Speaker 1: are trying to protect our country don't care whether they're 313 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:53,199 Speaker 1: doing the right thing or not. They don't care the 314 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:55,760 Speaker 1: American Civil Liberties Union is going to give them a prize. 315 00:19:56,160 --> 00:19:59,160 Speaker 1: They don't care about anything except winning. The guy who's 316 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:04,480 Speaker 1: the personif Asian of that, the current dictator of China. 317 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:10,119 Speaker 1: He keeps using the term socialism with Chinese characteristics. What 318 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:13,359 Speaker 1: do you think that means? Well, when I first heard 319 00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:16,600 Speaker 1: it several years ago, it was almost intended as a 320 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:20,679 Speaker 1: philosophic statement, not knowing as much about it as I 321 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:22,880 Speaker 1: do now, I tried to look into it and see 322 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:27,520 Speaker 1: what that meant. Clearly, socialism is a sacred word in 323 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:30,800 Speaker 1: China under the Communist Party, and what I think Shijunping 324 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:34,919 Speaker 1: was trying to say is we are socialists, but we 325 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:38,359 Speaker 1: are also not opposed to making money. We are not 326 00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:41,960 Speaker 1: opposed to having the Chinese elite, as long as they 327 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:45,400 Speaker 1: remain loyal to the party turn into billionaires. We aren't 328 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 1: opposed to having a middle class that earns decent money again, 329 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:52,120 Speaker 1: as long as they tow the line and don't cross us. 330 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:55,879 Speaker 1: So what I came away with is socialism with Chinese 331 00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:59,640 Speaker 1: characteristics is whatever I tell you to do, do it. 332 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:03,800 Speaker 1: That's socialism with Chinese characteristics. According to shijin Ping. There's 333 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:06,640 Speaker 1: a quote I was actually surprised. He said this at 334 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:09,359 Speaker 1: the beginning of the twentieth Congress the Chinese Commist Party, 335 00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:13,960 Speaker 1: which occurred in October. He said, I'm quoting him, Marxism 336 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:18,080 Speaker 1: is the fundamental guiding ideology upon which our party and 337 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:21,480 Speaker 1: our country are founded and thrived. Our experience has taught 338 00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:24,480 Speaker 1: us that at the fundamental level, we owe the success 339 00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:27,719 Speaker 1: of our party and socialism with Chinese characteristics to the 340 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:31,040 Speaker 1: fact that Marxism works, particularly when it is adapted to 341 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:34,399 Speaker 1: the Chinese context and the needs of our times. The 342 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:38,560 Speaker 1: sound theoretical guidance of Marxism is the source from which 343 00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:41,760 Speaker 1: our party draws its firm belief and conviction, and which 344 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:45,760 Speaker 1: enables our party to sease the historical initiative. Close quote. 345 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:49,640 Speaker 1: Now that to me, given my own background studying Leonar 346 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:53,840 Speaker 1: and stalinin the Soviet side, and then studying Mao, this 347 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:59,800 Speaker 1: is as clear an affirmation of them remaining a communist 348 00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:03,720 Speaker 1: literally a Stalinist system, as you could ask for. I 349 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:06,320 Speaker 1: don't see how anybody can read that and not understand 350 00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:08,720 Speaker 1: this guy is not a moderate. He's not about to 351 00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:13,520 Speaker 1: be friendly to us, and he believes deeply a radically 352 00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:16,760 Speaker 1: different vision of how the world works. Yes, that's correct. 353 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:19,960 Speaker 1: I think that there was always the hope among China 354 00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:25,240 Speaker 1: watchers that Shijinping would continue the liberalization of the economy, 355 00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:29,240 Speaker 1: if not of its politics in China, and that he 356 00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:33,800 Speaker 1: would in a sense inherit the mantle from Hujintao, his predecessor. 357 00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:36,560 Speaker 1: We saw what happened to mister who at the party 358 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:40,000 Speaker 1: convention a couple of weeks ago, he was led out 359 00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:43,439 Speaker 1: and has not been seen since. Shijinping is more of 360 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:49,720 Speaker 1: a Maoist than any Chinese leader since Lauzet, and he 361 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:52,880 Speaker 1: believes in control. If I knew the words in Chinese, 362 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:55,560 Speaker 1: I'd say them He's a control freak. He cares about 363 00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:57,960 Speaker 1: maintaining power. He cares about the party that he has 364 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:02,000 Speaker 1: put together and reshaped, maintaining power. If he wants to 365 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:05,680 Speaker 1: salute Karl Marx, great, if he wants to salute Stalin, 366 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:08,560 Speaker 1: he certainly is in line to be the closest thing 367 00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:11,920 Speaker 1: to Stalin we've ever seen. And I think that his 368 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:16,360 Speaker 1: devotion to any one political system is skin deep. He 369 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:19,160 Speaker 1: just wants to make sure that things go the way 370 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:23,800 Speaker 1: he wants, and among those things are rejoining Taiwan to 371 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:28,480 Speaker 1: the mainland, being recognized as an equal, if not superior 372 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:32,959 Speaker 1: power to the United States, and being the provider of 373 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:38,159 Speaker 1: most of the world's manufactured goods, which unfortunately China is 374 00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:41,000 Speaker 1: right now. And I think there are some steps being 375 00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:44,240 Speaker 1: taken to try to rectify that. But Shijin King is 376 00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:51,200 Speaker 1: a complete, ultimate, unquestioned, and unforgiving dictator. To somebody who 377 00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:58,040 Speaker 1: has invested massively in using artificial intelligence, both for domestic 378 00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:04,960 Speaker 1: policing and for penetrating worldwide and creating military capabilities designed 379 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:09,119 Speaker 1: to outstrip everybody else. The interaction between Jiji and Pings 380 00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:15,760 Speaker 1: authoritarianism or actually to totalitarianism and his investment in artificial intelligence, 381 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:21,400 Speaker 1: to me, is doubly sobering. The last semi legitimate estimate 382 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:25,159 Speaker 1: that I've heard again from someone who is brave living 383 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:29,280 Speaker 1: in China and will communicate on certain terms with me, 384 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:33,680 Speaker 1: is that the Chinese investment in artificial intelligence so far 385 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:39,440 Speaker 1: is approaching one trillion dollars, that it is only just beginning, 386 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:42,080 Speaker 1: and that if ever Grant and the rest of the 387 00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:44,800 Speaker 1: real estate market in China has to fall apart in 388 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:48,800 Speaker 1: order to provide money for artificial intelligence research and application, 389 00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:53,399 Speaker 1: she is perfectly capable of that. He wants control. I 390 00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:58,520 Speaker 1: believe that because it's a complicated idea of artificial intelligence, 391 00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:00,919 Speaker 1: most people just say, oh, that's when the computers are 392 00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:03,520 Speaker 1: going to take over, and we'll all do what they say. 393 00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:08,080 Speaker 1: These are literally exactly what is coming down. And for 394 00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:13,199 Speaker 1: freedom loving Americans and patriotic Americans who spend their time 395 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:18,480 Speaker 1: buying Chinese made excuse my words, crap on Amazon and 396 00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:20,080 Speaker 1: then just say, well, else the only place I can 397 00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:24,160 Speaker 1: find it. You grow a pair and try to look 398 00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:27,920 Speaker 1: for alternatives to Chinese made goods. You're not doing your 399 00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:31,320 Speaker 1: country a service if you buy thousands of dollars of 400 00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:34,840 Speaker 1: Chinese goods every month. I think it's a very sobering thing. 401 00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:37,520 Speaker 1: And I think your new novel, The World We Wish, 402 00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:41,959 Speaker 1: is such a vivid explanation of artificial intelligence, and I 403 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:44,760 Speaker 1: hope that everybody in the New Select Committee of China 404 00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:47,359 Speaker 1: will read both of your books and have you in 405 00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:50,560 Speaker 1: for a meeting and a discussion. From your words to 406 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:52,960 Speaker 1: Washington's mind, we'll see. I'm working on the end of 407 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:55,520 Speaker 1: the trilogy now. With luck and God's help, it'll be 408 00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:57,680 Speaker 1: out next year. That's great, and we would look forward 409 00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:00,679 Speaker 1: to you joining us again and keep bringing us up 410 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:02,800 Speaker 1: to date on your thinking. At that point, I really 411 00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:05,119 Speaker 1: want to thank you for joining me. Your new novel, 412 00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:08,199 Speaker 1: The World We Wish, really does take readers inside the 413 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:12,160 Speaker 1: stark realities of the Chinese communist system, and I think 414 00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:13,959 Speaker 1: that they will enjoy reading it. We're gonna have both 415 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:16,919 Speaker 1: of your novels on our show page at Newts World, 416 00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:19,320 Speaker 1: and I want to thank you for joining me on Newtsworld. 417 00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:21,480 Speaker 1: New Thank you, I learned new stuff every time I'm 418 00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:27,399 Speaker 1: with you. Take care. Thank you to my guest John Moody. 419 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:29,560 Speaker 1: You can get a link to buy his new book, 420 00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:33,320 Speaker 1: The World We Wish on our showpage at newtsworld dot com. 421 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:36,720 Speaker 1: News World is produced by Gingwish Street sixty and iHeartMedia. 422 00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:41,160 Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Garnsey Sloan, our producer is Rebecca Howell, 423 00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:44,679 Speaker 1: and our researcher is Rachel Peterson. You'll work for the 424 00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:48,159 Speaker 1: show was created by Steve Penley. Special thanks to the 425 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:51,440 Speaker 1: team at Gingwish Street sixty. If you've been enjoying Newtsworld, 426 00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:54,560 Speaker 1: I hope you'll go to Apple Podcast and both rate 427 00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:57,800 Speaker 1: us with five stars and give us a review so 428 00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:00,840 Speaker 1: others can learn what it's all about. Right now, listeners 429 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:04,200 Speaker 1: of newts World consign up from my three free weekly 430 00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:08,920 Speaker 1: columns at gingwishtre sixty dot com slash newsletter. I'm new Gangwish. 431 00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:10,359 Speaker 1: This is newts World.