1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:02,880 Speaker 1: Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve camera. 2 00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:08,960 Speaker 1: It's ready. Are you get in touch with technology with 3 00:00:09,039 --> 00:00:18,560 Speaker 1: textile from houstuffworks dot com. Well, our guest today is 4 00:00:18,680 --> 00:00:24,840 Speaker 1: Brian Brushwood, Magician extraordinaire, critical thinker, skeptic, social engineer, gat 5 00:00:24,840 --> 00:00:29,880 Speaker 1: about town like that last one the most. Thank you, Brian, 6 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:33,040 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for being on our show. Dude, 7 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:34,720 Speaker 1: thank you so much for having me. I don't know, 8 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:36,600 Speaker 1: we've talked about this for months. I'm glad we finally 9 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:39,400 Speaker 1: made it happen. Yeah, Brushwood and I are, we're like 10 00:00:39,479 --> 00:00:45,520 Speaker 1: BFFs from way back. Yeah, we're roomy's. That's true. It's true. 11 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:50,520 Speaker 1: So yeah, Brushwood is a he's he's He's an amazing, 12 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:53,320 Speaker 1: amazing kind of guy. One of the nicest guys you 13 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:56,280 Speaker 1: guys could ever meet. I really do mean that, Mr Brushwood. 14 00:00:56,360 --> 00:01:00,440 Speaker 1: You gotta ruin my reputations. Stop this. He's he's also 15 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:04,640 Speaker 1: a complete jerk. Now, so we wanted to talk today 16 00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:08,080 Speaker 1: about lots of different topics. But before we get started, 17 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 1: in your own words, can we get sort of a 18 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:16,640 Speaker 1: kind of a minute long or two minute long bio 19 00:01:16,959 --> 00:01:19,279 Speaker 1: of who you are, how you got interested in stage 20 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:22,040 Speaker 1: magic and technology and all that kind of good stuff. Sure, man, 21 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:24,440 Speaker 1: it's really weird. I'm in a transition phase right now 22 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:26,720 Speaker 1: because if you'd asked me five years ago, the answer 23 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 1: would have been dead simple. I would have told you 24 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:32,440 Speaker 1: I am a touring stage magician who tours colleges doing 25 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 1: a punk rock magic show with fire eating escapes, mind reading. 26 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:37,720 Speaker 1: I stick and nail and one eye pops out, the 27 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:40,560 Speaker 1: other eye, I break thirty pound breaks over my head. Uh, 28 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:42,840 Speaker 1: And it was and that's that's all I did. But 29 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 1: as I've transitioned, we launched Scam School. I pitched it 30 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:49,960 Speaker 1: five years ago right around this time, and now it's 31 00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:52,760 Speaker 1: four years strong, two and twenty episodes, and now I'm 32 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:55,680 Speaker 1: hosting four other podcasts as well. But I'm still doing 33 00:01:55,760 --> 00:01:58,800 Speaker 1: the live stage shows. So my identity, my identity is 34 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 1: kind of in transition right now as I as I 35 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:03,480 Speaker 1: do more performing in front of the camera instead of 36 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:07,520 Speaker 1: in front of audiences. And now it's even more complicated since, uh, 37 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:10,720 Speaker 1: we just launched the Scam School book, which hit number 38 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:13,080 Speaker 1: one in Canada number three in the US on the 39 00:02:13,120 --> 00:02:15,640 Speaker 1: iTunes store on the day of launch. So now I 40 00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:17,800 Speaker 1: guess throw author in the mix as well, how about that. 41 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:22,760 Speaker 1: Huge props to you, and that's awesome and uh, you're 42 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:25,760 Speaker 1: also The Scam School show has also been featured on 43 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:30,079 Speaker 1: Discovery dot Com. Yeah, they apparently it was the awesomest thing, 44 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:32,880 Speaker 1: because I guess Discovery dot Com has been talking with 45 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:35,040 Speaker 1: Revision three and they were talking about some kind of 46 00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:38,120 Speaker 1: partnership for a while, but since nothing was confirmed, nobody 47 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:40,560 Speaker 1: at Revision three really told me, because you know, it's 48 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:41,639 Speaker 1: like they didn't want to tell me if there was 49 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:44,480 Speaker 1: nothing to tell. But I guess within minutes of the 50 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:48,000 Speaker 1: deal being finalized, Discovery dot Com through the first episode 51 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:50,400 Speaker 1: up under their life section, and so I found out 52 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:53,239 Speaker 1: about it because somebody on Twitter is like, hey, were 53 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:55,079 Speaker 1: you just not gonna tell us that you joined Discovery 54 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:58,840 Speaker 1: dot com? And I'm like, what's take a look? And 55 00:02:58,919 --> 00:03:00,400 Speaker 1: sure enough, there it is and it's is to be 56 00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 1: very well received. I'm excited about it. That's fantastic. Yeah, 57 00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:06,000 Speaker 1: And and as a you know, as a friend and fan, 58 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:08,200 Speaker 1: I was very pleased to see that join our our 59 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 1: family here, and it was a it was a surprise 60 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:12,080 Speaker 1: to me as well. I had not I had no 61 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:15,400 Speaker 1: knowledge of any sort of Revision three work at that point. 62 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:17,919 Speaker 1: But it was very pleased to see you brought on board. 63 00:03:17,919 --> 00:03:21,320 Speaker 1: And anytime I can see talented people who who are 64 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 1: good at at at entertaining and informing, that's always a pleasure. Uh. 65 00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:29,840 Speaker 1: So we wanted to talk a little bit today about 66 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:34,320 Speaker 1: the fact that since you have extensive experience being a 67 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:37,960 Speaker 1: stage magician, uh, that kind of gets your perspective on 68 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:41,720 Speaker 1: how stage magic has changed over the years and how 69 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 1: the role of technology has sort of played a part 70 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:47,000 Speaker 1: in that and that, uh, and just get an idea 71 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:50,840 Speaker 1: of what's important when you're a stage magician. Yeah, absolutely. 72 00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 1: I mean I would say as as far back as 73 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:56,600 Speaker 1: you look, there's been a very tight relationship between technology 74 00:03:56,640 --> 00:03:59,800 Speaker 1: and magic. And uh, what's the Arthur's C. Clark quote 75 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:03,840 Speaker 1: for um Childhood's end. He says, any sufficiently advanced technology 76 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:08,080 Speaker 1: is indistinguishable from magic. Yes, one of our favorites. Yeah, no, 77 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:09,960 Speaker 1: and that the magicians love that quote because it makes 78 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:13,880 Speaker 1: us sound important. But the but you know, you look 79 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:17,000 Speaker 1: back and uh, it seems like every time there's a 80 00:04:17,080 --> 00:04:20,960 Speaker 1: novel new technology, uh, there is a magician to either 81 00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:24,280 Speaker 1: exploit it secretly in a stage show or to make 82 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:27,880 Speaker 1: it integral to his stage performance. You know you go back. 83 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:31,479 Speaker 1: You know, you got Jean Eugene Robert Huddon uh doing 84 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:34,279 Speaker 1: doing bullet catches, you know when and this is in 85 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:38,120 Speaker 1: the nineteenth century when we're still using a musket type rifles. 86 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:41,280 Speaker 1: You got um uh, you know Penn and Teller doing 87 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:44,040 Speaker 1: doing cell phone tricks, you know. And of course I 88 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:46,360 Speaker 1: I do an illusion in my stage show now where 89 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:48,680 Speaker 1: I make a ghost appear on everyone's cell phone in 90 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:51,840 Speaker 1: the audience. And there's something about the novelty of new 91 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:55,000 Speaker 1: technology that that puts a finger in that same part 92 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:57,800 Speaker 1: of the brain that good slot of hand does where 93 00:04:57,839 --> 00:05:00,679 Speaker 1: it's just it's just incomprehensible and you can't even understand 94 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:05,040 Speaker 1: how that's possible. That's yeah, that's really cool. And uh, 95 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:07,400 Speaker 1: you know, not to not to pull back the veil 96 00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:11,120 Speaker 1: too much from from the whole magic thing, but go ahead, 97 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:15,880 Speaker 1: pull it back in the In the biz, uh, you know, 98 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 1: we might refer to certain certain types of technology specifically 99 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 1: made for stage magic, often referred to as as gimmicks, 100 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 1: a gimmick that you use in order to pull off 101 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:29,880 Speaker 1: a trick. And I think it's an interesting thing that 102 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:32,320 Speaker 1: I see with a lot of people who just start 103 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:36,760 Speaker 1: off in magic, the beginners often, I think, place more 104 00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:41,800 Speaker 1: stock in a gimmick than they do necessarily in stage presentation. 105 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 1: And I'm curious as to what your view is on that. 106 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:47,760 Speaker 1: What do you think is the most important tool in 107 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:52,280 Speaker 1: any stage magician's toolbox? Us, Yeah, you nailed it right 108 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 1: on the head. When I first started in magic, I 109 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:57,800 Speaker 1: was what eighteen years old and wandered into a magic 110 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:00,520 Speaker 1: shop in Austin, Texas that was run out of the 111 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:03,359 Speaker 1: garage of one of the local magicians. And since I 112 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:06,000 Speaker 1: didn't have a car at university, I had to take 113 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:08,479 Speaker 1: two different busses. It took me a forty five minutes 114 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:11,440 Speaker 1: just to go the eight miles to get there. And uh, 115 00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:13,800 Speaker 1: this guy talked to me for like the three hours straight, 116 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:16,320 Speaker 1: and I just had my mind blown because I picked 117 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:18,400 Speaker 1: magic just out of the blue as as a hobby 118 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:21,520 Speaker 1: to try, and I didn't really know much about it. 119 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:23,000 Speaker 1: But one of the things he told me that really 120 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:25,480 Speaker 1: stuck with me is like, when when people first start 121 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:30,359 Speaker 1: doing magic, they always want the self working, no fail gimmicks. 122 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:32,640 Speaker 1: They want they want the tricky deck of cards to 123 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:35,320 Speaker 1: force someone a card rather than relying on slide of hand, 124 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:37,680 Speaker 1: because you know, it's a confidence booster, and it's something 125 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:40,239 Speaker 1: that always works. But then there's something kind of guilt 126 00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:42,360 Speaker 1: that builds in you and makes you think like, I'm 127 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:44,200 Speaker 1: not really a magician. I should be doing everything with 128 00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:46,240 Speaker 1: a real deck of cards. And you learn how to 129 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:50,040 Speaker 1: do these these fancy forces or these flourishes, or you know, 130 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 1: turn over one card so it looks like a different card. 131 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:54,960 Speaker 1: And then after a while, once you have that down, 132 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:56,960 Speaker 1: you get lazy and say why am I doing all 133 00:06:56,960 --> 00:06:59,680 Speaker 1: this extra work when the one who notices the difference? 134 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:03,400 Speaker 1: Then you go back to using gimmicks. Soum, Yeah it is, 135 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:05,560 Speaker 1: but but but you come out the other side because 136 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:07,960 Speaker 1: it's one of those once you get enough flight time, 137 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:11,960 Speaker 1: you build an engaging presentation. And I'll tell you that's 138 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:14,800 Speaker 1: the biggest I don't want to say betrayal. That's the 139 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 1: biggest confusion that people have. A lot of folks get 140 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 1: into magic when they're fourteen and hitting puberty because they 141 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 1: feel powerless and they want a way to get other 142 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:26,680 Speaker 1: people to be interested in something they're doing, and so 143 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:29,720 Speaker 1: they follow the script the way it's written, They do 144 00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:32,400 Speaker 1: the moves the way it's written, and either they get 145 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:35,240 Speaker 1: stuck in that rut and they become those socially awkward 146 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:38,320 Speaker 1: people who can't relate to other people except with the 147 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:41,760 Speaker 1: deck of cards in their hand, or they pull through 148 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:44,640 Speaker 1: it and they realize, wow, it's not really They'll they'll realize, like, 149 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:46,800 Speaker 1: out of everything, the one joke they made up on 150 00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:49,200 Speaker 1: the spot got a bigger reaction than any of the 151 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:52,520 Speaker 1: prepackaged can jokes that they had before then. And then 152 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:55,520 Speaker 1: they realized that the magic is just that social lubricant, 153 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:58,440 Speaker 1: it's just that excuse to start interacting with someone, and 154 00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:01,760 Speaker 1: it's really it's your personality that matters way more than anything. 155 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:04,560 Speaker 1: And you, I mean, there are parts of Pen and 156 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:08,280 Speaker 1: Teller's show that are utterly transparent to anyone who knows 157 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:10,880 Speaker 1: a thing or two about magic. And yet there are 158 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:14,480 Speaker 1: some of the most important, beautiful routines that they've ever written, 159 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 1: because they speak to something bigger than the trick they're doing. Yeah, 160 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:23,000 Speaker 1: I'm always reminded of their routine of doing the cups 161 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:27,200 Speaker 1: and balls with the transparent cups. Yeah, and even as 162 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:29,640 Speaker 1: you're watching it, and even as they're explaining how they 163 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:33,560 Speaker 1: do it, doing it so seamlessly and so smoothly, that's 164 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:36,800 Speaker 1: so clear that they've they've really polished that routine that 165 00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:40,960 Speaker 1: it still feels like magic. Well, I think there's a 166 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:44,680 Speaker 1: real uh, there's something that we really crave in the 167 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 1: illusion of being educated. And I say the illusion because 168 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:51,560 Speaker 1: because by the time that trick, ostensibly the whole purpose 169 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:53,360 Speaker 1: of that routine is for them to teach you how 170 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:55,200 Speaker 1: to do the cups of balls, because you see it 171 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:58,760 Speaker 1: done with transparent cups. By the time that's over, I 172 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:01,920 Speaker 1: would I would challenge you to a hundred thousand yen 173 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:05,800 Speaker 1: that is that a hundred bucks something like that, not 174 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:09,840 Speaker 1: recreate even one phase of that routine accurately. And likewise, 175 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:11,720 Speaker 1: one of the things people seem to like most of 176 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:14,160 Speaker 1: my stage show is I begin with this four and 177 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:17,440 Speaker 1: a half minute illustrated history of fire reading, right explained 178 00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:21,199 Speaker 1: from the earliest references to resistance to fire to uh 179 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:24,840 Speaker 1: to to the touring uh you know stage performer Richardson 180 00:09:24,880 --> 00:09:28,560 Speaker 1: in the sixteen hundreds. I explained the progression of fire reading, 181 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:31,040 Speaker 1: and everyone's oh, I just so educational. I learned so much, 182 00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:33,640 Speaker 1: and I was like, you cannot repeat back one fact. 183 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:36,280 Speaker 1: I gave you that entire time. But it's that blend 184 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:39,440 Speaker 1: of feeling like you're learning while you're seeing something visually 185 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:44,640 Speaker 1: interesting that seems to uh, seems to sit well with people. Excellent. Yeah, um, 186 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:48,760 Speaker 1: and it's it's interesting to me on this show in 187 00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:52,200 Speaker 1: several different episodes. Uh, and Chris can attest to this 188 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:53,760 Speaker 1: because he had to listen to me do it just 189 00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:58,640 Speaker 1: a second ago. I stress the importance of of critical 190 00:09:58,679 --> 00:10:03,000 Speaker 1: thinking and really uh, taking taking time to think things through, 191 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:05,199 Speaker 1: because otherwise you just tend to accept stuff on a 192 00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 1: surface level, and it becomes very easy to get tricked 193 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:10,080 Speaker 1: into things. This is one of those things that magicians 194 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:12,920 Speaker 1: that actually can depend upon depending on their their routines. 195 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:16,320 Speaker 1: But but there does seem to be an interesting relationship 196 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:20,200 Speaker 1: between people who are are who get into stage magic 197 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:24,959 Speaker 1: and people who are advocates for critical thinking. Um. And 198 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:27,839 Speaker 1: I mean that all that all really began with Houdini. 199 00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:30,960 Speaker 1: You know, Judini was obsessed with trying to contact his 200 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:33,719 Speaker 1: dead mother and this is at the height of spiritualism 201 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:37,880 Speaker 1: in uh, you know, early twentieth century. But being a magician, 202 00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:41,560 Speaker 1: he was offended when he went to spiritual mediums and 203 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:44,040 Speaker 1: saw they were using standard slide of hand tricks. And 204 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:46,000 Speaker 1: yet these people with the straight face we're saying no 205 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:48,559 Speaker 1: I'm contacting the spirit world. He's like, no, you got 206 00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:50,839 Speaker 1: that palm, you know, and he would he would call 207 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:52,559 Speaker 1: them out. He was he was kind of he was 208 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:55,560 Speaker 1: kind of an able about it, you know. Yeah, And 209 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 1: that tradition continues to this day well well and and 210 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 1: to be honest, nobody was doing it after Houdini until 211 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:05,000 Speaker 1: James Randy came along and back in the nineteen sixties. 212 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:07,320 Speaker 1: That started off with with I don't know if it's 213 00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:09,000 Speaker 1: started with a hundred dollars out of his own pocket 214 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:10,760 Speaker 1: or a thousand dollars out of his own pocket, but 215 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:14,440 Speaker 1: he's always offered this, uh, this, this dollar amount challenge 216 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:18,400 Speaker 1: to anyone who can demonstrate any psychic EESP or supernatural 217 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:22,640 Speaker 1: phenomenon under double blind test conditions. Uh And, and nobody's 218 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:24,880 Speaker 1: gotten anywhere close. And in fact, the challenge is now, 219 00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:28,040 Speaker 1: of course, the world famous million dollar challenge, and it 220 00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:32,040 Speaker 1: actually extends to things beyond your typical you know, the 221 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:35,800 Speaker 1: we typically think of things like being able to move 222 00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:38,360 Speaker 1: something with your mind or prove that dowsing is real, 223 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:41,680 Speaker 1: but it actually I've seen him extend that to uh, 224 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:47,040 Speaker 1: to technological claims as well. For example, monster, That's where 225 00:11:47,080 --> 00:11:51,559 Speaker 1: I was headed beating me there, And I guess it's true. 226 00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:54,080 Speaker 1: I think I've read an article recently saying that a 227 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:57,839 Speaker 1: wire coat hanger demonstrated the ability to perform just as 228 00:11:57,840 --> 00:12:00,400 Speaker 1: well as a hundred dollar monster cable. Yeah, we, as 229 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:03,000 Speaker 1: a matter of fact, talked about that on a previous podcast. Yeah, 230 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:07,200 Speaker 1: that's that exact same subject. But which it's interesting to 231 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:10,320 Speaker 1: think that it's a stage magician, someone who is is 232 00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:13,640 Speaker 1: skilled in the arts of deception, who who comes forward 233 00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:16,000 Speaker 1: as an advocate for this. Then, but then again, you're 234 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:18,520 Speaker 1: talking about the people who know these tools, because like 235 00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:21,360 Speaker 1: you were saying with Houdini, there, these are the tools 236 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:23,320 Speaker 1: of the trade, and they're seeing it being done not 237 00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:25,640 Speaker 1: for entertainment purposes, but to pull the wool over the 238 00:12:25,679 --> 00:12:28,600 Speaker 1: eyes and try and builk people out of money. Well, 239 00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:31,199 Speaker 1: I think, well, go ahead. I was gonna say, in 240 00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:34,920 Speaker 1: a way, the people that that sell paraphernalia like that, 241 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:39,200 Speaker 1: the the high end audio cables that work theoretically just 242 00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:42,319 Speaker 1: as well as a code hanger, they're involved in an 243 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 1: act of showmanship as well. Oh, certainly showmanship. And also 244 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:50,320 Speaker 1: there's there's certain things, um, when there's a market need 245 00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:53,679 Speaker 1: for something, whether it exists or not, somebody will figure 246 00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:55,280 Speaker 1: out a way to fill it. And that's why I 247 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:57,960 Speaker 1: don't think Marster cables are going anywhere, is because whether 248 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:01,200 Speaker 1: or not it's true, if you have more money than cents, 249 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:03,520 Speaker 1: you want to believe that there's something better than the 250 00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:06,079 Speaker 1: ten dollar cable, and and Monster is gonna be there 251 00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:09,000 Speaker 1: to say, yes, yes there is, and here it is. 252 00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 1: And and the thing that really drives me crazy is 253 00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:16,520 Speaker 1: you could actually come into contact with a system that 254 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:21,959 Speaker 1: is measurably through very very finely two instruments, better than 255 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:27,080 Speaker 1: a cheaper system. But to the human ear is indistinguishable, right, 256 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:30,000 Speaker 1: because we're not capable of hearing that well. And and 257 00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:32,480 Speaker 1: in fact, uh, there's a man it must have been. 258 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:34,200 Speaker 1: It was over a decade ago that I read in 259 00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:36,280 Speaker 1: Wired magazine. I wish I could remember the name of 260 00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:40,520 Speaker 1: the audio engineer that he set up a super calibrated 261 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:43,400 Speaker 1: sound system at one dance club and people were complaining 262 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:45,400 Speaker 1: that it just it just wasn't loud. And meanwhile he's 263 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:47,600 Speaker 1: looking at the decibel meter and this thing is like 264 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:50,160 Speaker 1: almost damaging you're hearing it's so loud. So he goes 265 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:52,120 Speaker 1: to radio shack and gets a I think it was 266 00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:55,840 Speaker 1: like as in Peter that would that would clip the 267 00:13:55,880 --> 00:13:59,440 Speaker 1: highest end, but the the audio queue of hearing the 268 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:02,520 Speaker 1: high end being clipped made them think that the speakers 269 00:14:02,520 --> 00:14:04,720 Speaker 1: were maxed, and even though the volume was actually lower, 270 00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:07,120 Speaker 1: people reported how much more they liked the music, how 271 00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:11,360 Speaker 1: much louder it was. That's that now that I don't 272 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:13,600 Speaker 1: find that hard to believe, but it is. It is 273 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:16,480 Speaker 1: pretty amazing. It is amazing, I'll tell you, man, it's 274 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:20,760 Speaker 1: amazing to me what what a mystery our own minds are. 275 00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:22,720 Speaker 1: And that's one of the things my favorite, one of 276 00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:25,400 Speaker 1: the greatest things I got to do at the University 277 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:27,800 Speaker 1: of Texas was I was part of this honors program 278 00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:29,880 Speaker 1: where they only took a hundred and fifty students each year, 279 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:33,080 Speaker 1: and they'd have over a thousand applicants, but you could take. 280 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:35,200 Speaker 1: You took pretty much what they told you the first 281 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:37,360 Speaker 1: couple of years, but the last two years you took 282 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:39,720 Speaker 1: whatever classes were related to your thesis. You had to 283 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:41,880 Speaker 1: have a thesis in order to graduate. And some of 284 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:44,280 Speaker 1: the students would write their first novel. Some of them 285 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:47,040 Speaker 1: would write these two or three d page biographies on 286 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:50,320 Speaker 1: obscure figures from history. And I was doing magic on 287 00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:52,920 Speaker 1: the side at this point, and I thought, well, maybe 288 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:54,840 Speaker 1: it would be awesome if I could get away with 289 00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:57,120 Speaker 1: writing a paper on the history of magic, because that 290 00:14:57,120 --> 00:14:59,400 Speaker 1: would be fun, or even better, if I could claim 291 00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:01,400 Speaker 1: that it was my thesis to get a trick published 292 00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:03,800 Speaker 1: in one of these magic journals, so, you know, still 293 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:06,360 Speaker 1: putting a significant amount of work on myself, but at 294 00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 1: least it would be fun and magic related. And when 295 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:11,280 Speaker 1: I went into pitch my idea to the dean, she said, well, 296 00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:13,400 Speaker 1: what do you want to do for your thesis? And 297 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:15,640 Speaker 1: I got as far as saying, well, for the last 298 00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:17,520 Speaker 1: couple of years, I've been doing magic on the side, 299 00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:19,560 Speaker 1: and as I drew in a breath to continue, she 300 00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:22,920 Speaker 1: interrupted saying, and you want to do a magic show 301 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:27,480 Speaker 1: as a creative writing thesis. What a great idea. And 302 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:30,920 Speaker 1: so as it retrol, I got to take whatever courses 303 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:32,760 Speaker 1: I wanted for the last two years, as long as 304 00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:35,120 Speaker 1: I could justify being related to magic. So I took 305 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:39,880 Speaker 1: courses on you know, you know, on artificial intelligence, on psychology, 306 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:43,520 Speaker 1: on the history of witchcraft, on pseudoscience and the paranormal. Uh. 307 00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:46,760 Speaker 1: It was, it was amazing. But it was those courses 308 00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:51,360 Speaker 1: on brain development that really cemented in my mind what wonderful, 309 00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:55,320 Speaker 1: flawed machines we all are. And once you see, once 310 00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:59,080 Speaker 1: you spend a few years deceiving people, and even better, 311 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:03,000 Speaker 1: hearing back from people after the fact, having them describe 312 00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:05,160 Speaker 1: to you what they think you did or what they 313 00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:09,280 Speaker 1: remember you doing, it is unreal how wrong all of 314 00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:12,360 Speaker 1: our memories are all the time, on everything. And once 315 00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:15,080 Speaker 1: you accept that, I find I find I'm a lot 316 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:17,960 Speaker 1: happier about everything. I don't argue anymore. Like if I 317 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 1: remember something happening one way and someone remembers in another way, 318 00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:23,720 Speaker 1: I'm like, whatever, I'm probably we're probably both wrong. Thing 319 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:26,720 Speaker 1: like that. And likewise, when you look at um, you know, 320 00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:31,560 Speaker 1: eye witness testimony, you you you devalue it severely because 321 00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:35,400 Speaker 1: you understand that even if they're not intentionally lying to themselves, 322 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:39,160 Speaker 1: they there's just no way that they can accurately remember anything. 323 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:41,600 Speaker 1: So you're making me feel a lot more comfortable about 324 00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:43,680 Speaker 1: the fact that I offload a lot of my own 325 00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:49,600 Speaker 1: mental uh, my my own mental practices onto my technology. Now, oh, 326 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:53,120 Speaker 1: you should, you should, And in fact I think that, uh, 327 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:57,160 Speaker 1: we're entering an age where unfortunately, in the legal system 328 00:16:57,240 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 1: right now, we still are in a place where, uh, 329 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:03,000 Speaker 1: where we value I witness testimony far more than we 330 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:05,639 Speaker 1: should because there's and if you've if you're familiar with 331 00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:09,479 Speaker 1: the work of Elizabeth Loftus, uh, it is unreal. They've 332 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 1: been able to induce false memories and other people by 333 00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:16,280 Speaker 1: asking leading questions. There was one story where they took 334 00:17:16,320 --> 00:17:20,920 Speaker 1: a young kid named Chris and they laid out five stories. 335 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:23,040 Speaker 1: Four of them were tales that actually happened to him. 336 00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:26,080 Speaker 1: One was a totally made up story about being lost 337 00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:28,080 Speaker 1: at the mall. And they asked a bunch of questions 338 00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:31,600 Speaker 1: about all five and uh and then like two weeks later, 339 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:33,639 Speaker 1: they said, well, which of these one of these was 340 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:35,679 Speaker 1: a made up story that never happened to you, Chris, 341 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:38,160 Speaker 1: which one was the one that we made up? And 342 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:41,080 Speaker 1: he picked an actual story from his past as being 343 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:43,040 Speaker 1: a made up one because he couldn't believe that he 344 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:45,760 Speaker 1: wasn't lost at the mall at age five. It's kind 345 00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:48,159 Speaker 1: of like, wasn't there that story about the other? The 346 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:51,920 Speaker 1: other experiment with the showing an ad a fake ad 347 00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:55,480 Speaker 1: for some popcorn uh to some people during a thing, 348 00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:57,560 Speaker 1: and then like a survey, two weeks later, they asked 349 00:17:57,560 --> 00:17:59,639 Speaker 1: them how the popcorn was but no one in the 350 00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:02,639 Speaker 1: study had actually had any popcorn, but they all remembered 351 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:05,320 Speaker 1: trying it and then it was delicious because of the ad. 352 00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:09,199 Speaker 1: Oh wow, I haven't now that was that was just 353 00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:11,480 Speaker 1: I think that was when I heard that. I think 354 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:13,960 Speaker 1: I heard that on Skeptics Guide to the Universe. Um, 355 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:16,800 Speaker 1: that's fantastic. Yeah, And this is why focus groups aren't 356 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:20,320 Speaker 1: so great for marketing purposes, because the leader often sort 357 00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:22,880 Speaker 1: of steers it in the direction of the of what 358 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:26,080 Speaker 1: the the company that has organized as focus group is 359 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:29,320 Speaker 1: trying to achieve, like oh, hey, look it works right, 360 00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:32,320 Speaker 1: go it? Yeah, which comes That's that's the important of 361 00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:35,480 Speaker 1: double blind experimentation, which we you know, of course they 362 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:37,840 Speaker 1: do very very well with the with the FDA and 363 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:40,359 Speaker 1: for for you know, new drugs. When it comes to 364 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 1: consumer marketing, there's probably not much of a reason to 365 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:44,720 Speaker 1: try that. And for those out there who don't know 366 00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:47,119 Speaker 1: what a double blind test is, all right, So a 367 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:49,840 Speaker 1: blind test means that the person who's taking the test 368 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:52,480 Speaker 1: has no knowledge of whether or not they are in 369 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:55,480 Speaker 1: a control group or the test group. Double blind is 370 00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:58,280 Speaker 1: that the person administering the test also does not know 371 00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:01,359 Speaker 1: if that person if they are ministering a test to 372 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:04,320 Speaker 1: the control group or to the test group, so that 373 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:08,320 Speaker 1: that it limits the chance that data will be uh 374 00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:13,440 Speaker 1: leaked to a test subject and influence his or her results. Yeah. 375 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:15,879 Speaker 1: That one of the earliest cases of that where it's 376 00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:19,560 Speaker 1: so important is Michelle. Eugene Chevroule is a French scientist, 377 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:22,240 Speaker 1: and this is back in the I believe, the nineteenth 378 00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:25,640 Speaker 1: century when dowsing was super popular, and dowsing is, of course, 379 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:28,560 Speaker 1: you know, finding water with a forked stick or holding 380 00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:31,080 Speaker 1: a pendulum over a substance and it swings one way 381 00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:32,880 Speaker 1: if it's supposed to be one thing, or swings another 382 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:35,520 Speaker 1: way if it's another. And when he tried it, he 383 00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:37,320 Speaker 1: set out the way he tried it was, of course, 384 00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:39,840 Speaker 1: he set out a bowl of mercury, held out the pendulum, 385 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:42,480 Speaker 1: and that things started swinging like crazy, pulled the mercury 386 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:45,680 Speaker 1: away and it stayed totally still still. He was like, 387 00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:48,399 Speaker 1: holy crap, maybe there's something to this, although he didn't 388 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:54,560 Speaker 1: say that because he was French soccer crap. But then 389 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:56,560 Speaker 1: he had it. But but he had the idea. He 390 00:19:56,560 --> 00:19:58,719 Speaker 1: had his assistant set up a partition and he just 391 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:02,040 Speaker 1: held out the pen alum and and the assistant would 392 00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:04,119 Speaker 1: either set down an empty bowl or a bowl filled 393 00:20:04,119 --> 00:20:06,639 Speaker 1: with mercury, and once he didn't know which which one 394 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:09,560 Speaker 1: it was, it didn't do anything. Yeah, I know that 395 00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:12,560 Speaker 1: James Randy had suggested a similar test where it would 396 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:18,800 Speaker 1: involve burying UH PBC pipes with water in them, for example, 397 00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 1: under a certain area of land, covering it all up, 398 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:24,320 Speaker 1: and then the person ministering the test would have no 399 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:28,440 Speaker 1: idea where the the PBC pipe actually was. They would 400 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:31,560 Speaker 1: just observe the test subjects as they would walk across, 401 00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:34,679 Speaker 1: and the test subjects would let them know if they 402 00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:36,720 Speaker 1: had found a hit or not, and that that would 403 00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:40,200 Speaker 1: be you know, a typical, very simple double blind test, 404 00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:44,679 Speaker 1: although the actual administration would require more. But out of 405 00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:48,040 Speaker 1: everybody who goes for the James Randy million dollar prize, UH, 406 00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:50,959 Speaker 1: the dowsers seemed to be the most intense because they 407 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:52,960 Speaker 1: truly believe what they're doing is a science. And the 408 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:55,119 Speaker 1: reason they truly believe it is because they have so 409 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:58,720 Speaker 1: many stories of personal validation where they looked for water 410 00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:01,320 Speaker 1: pipes behind the wall and found them, They look for 411 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:04,040 Speaker 1: water at their uncle's farm and they found it, or 412 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:06,560 Speaker 1: you know, they look for a lost object, they find it. 413 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:10,000 Speaker 1: And the problem is, Uh, you can be right, you 414 00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:13,679 Speaker 1: can get lucky, and you can maybe you rely on 415 00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:17,040 Speaker 1: your intuition, uh and not realize you're you're doing that. 416 00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:19,000 Speaker 1: So even if they're right and get a hit, that 417 00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:21,840 Speaker 1: doesn't mean that it proves that dowsing works. It means 418 00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:23,840 Speaker 1: that it proves that that either you know, one of 419 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:26,680 Speaker 1: the other things happen. Yeah, And this kind of leads 420 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 1: us in this whole, this whole belief the fact that 421 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:34,520 Speaker 1: we're we we are fallible constructs. You know, we we don't. 422 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:37,320 Speaker 1: We make mistakes and often we don't realize we're making 423 00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:40,240 Speaker 1: the mistakes, and that there are ways of tweaking that. 424 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:42,600 Speaker 1: That kind of leads into the discussion I want to 425 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:46,600 Speaker 1: have about social engineering. Now you have your show Scam School, 426 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:49,199 Speaker 1: which has a lot to do with social engineering. Can 427 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:53,400 Speaker 1: you explain to our listeners what is social engineering? Oh? 428 00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:57,280 Speaker 1: I think the definition is is clinically something like, um, 429 00:21:57,320 --> 00:21:59,679 Speaker 1: you know, a set of tools designed to induce a 430 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:03,640 Speaker 1: certain response and people in certain environments. I I just 431 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:06,680 Speaker 1: claim that it's cheap, dirty psychological tricks to get people 432 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:09,280 Speaker 1: to do what you want. But whether it's you know, 433 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:10,960 Speaker 1: and on scam School. We try to keep it light 434 00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:13,919 Speaker 1: so more often than not, uh, where we explain the 435 00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:16,720 Speaker 1: ways that you can use uh you know, magic tricks 436 00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:19,919 Speaker 1: or psychological manipulation to get the girl's phone number or 437 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:23,199 Speaker 1: to win free beers off of your friends. Uh uh. 438 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:25,720 Speaker 1: One of the best experiences that I got to have 439 00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:28,879 Speaker 1: was uh what three years ago, I got selected at 440 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:32,760 Speaker 1: south By Southwest to give a keynote presentation on social 441 00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:35,800 Speaker 1: engineering scam your way into anything or from anyone. And 442 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:38,639 Speaker 1: in the research putting together on that, I read a 443 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:43,000 Speaker 1: number of books, including Robert Chaldini's Influence, which is fantastic, 444 00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:45,680 Speaker 1: so many amazing tidbits in there that are all based 445 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:49,320 Speaker 1: on you know, real psychological surveys. Stuff like um uh, 446 00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:54,280 Speaker 1: there's these fixed action pattern patterns, these psychological backdoors that 447 00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:58,240 Speaker 1: that anyone from con artists to magicians can use to 448 00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:01,000 Speaker 1: to make people feel obligated to do certain things, for 449 00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:05,480 Speaker 1: example reciprocation. There was a Dennis Reagan did this uh 450 00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:08,760 Speaker 1: fake art experiment where he had a group of people 451 00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:11,640 Speaker 1: come in and they were either they were signed in 452 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:13,920 Speaker 1: in twos now one of them was a real experimentee, 453 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:16,240 Speaker 1: the other was a fake experiment tee. And they spent 454 00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:19,080 Speaker 1: all day reviewing art on a scale of one to five. 455 00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:20,720 Speaker 1: I love it, I hated this, that the other. And 456 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:23,439 Speaker 1: about halfway it was time to take a break, and 457 00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:26,320 Speaker 1: so Mr Fake tester goes off to the bathroom and 458 00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:28,480 Speaker 1: when he comes back, and one of two things would happen. 459 00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:30,600 Speaker 1: Either he came back empty handed and they just went 460 00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:33,040 Speaker 1: back to work, or he came back with with two 461 00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:34,960 Speaker 1: cokes in his hand, and he would say, hey, I 462 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:37,080 Speaker 1: went to the bathroom and I grabbed myself a coke 463 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:38,639 Speaker 1: and I figured I grab one for you. Here you 464 00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:40,840 Speaker 1: go enjoy a coke. And then they go back to testing. 465 00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:43,240 Speaker 1: And then at the very end of the day, Mr 466 00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:47,640 Speaker 1: Fake tester would in both in both groups say hey, 467 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:49,680 Speaker 1: I hate to bug you about this, but we're doing 468 00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:52,120 Speaker 1: this raffle for work, and if if I sell enough, 469 00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:54,640 Speaker 1: there's a chance I could win a cars as many 470 00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:57,000 Speaker 1: as you could buy. The more the better. And they 471 00:23:57,040 --> 00:24:00,000 Speaker 1: measured how many of these of these tickets he would sell, 472 00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 1: and under reciprocation, people bought either two or three times 473 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:09,080 Speaker 1: as much as they did without reciprocation. Now some people say, like, okay, 474 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:11,879 Speaker 1: well if maybe maybe when they gave him a coke. 475 00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:15,040 Speaker 1: They liked the guy more and that's why they went 476 00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:17,320 Speaker 1: ahead and uh and bought more tickets. But it turns 477 00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:19,880 Speaker 1: out that wasn't the case. Exit surveys show that even 478 00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:24,520 Speaker 1: if they actively disliked the Mr. Fake tester, they still 479 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:28,240 Speaker 1: bought two or three times more than they would without reciprocation. 480 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:33,840 Speaker 1: Socially impelled to buy those those tickets. Yeah, well, and 481 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:37,000 Speaker 1: it's it's that we hate owing people anything. And there's 482 00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:40,359 Speaker 1: there's other things like uh, social proof. There's there's the 483 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:45,200 Speaker 1: idea that the trappings of authority forced people to to 484 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:47,959 Speaker 1: to comply, even if that that authority is just a 485 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:51,159 Speaker 1: well tailored suit. They did studies where they measure how 486 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:55,080 Speaker 1: many people would follow when somebody started jaywalking, and if 487 00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:58,120 Speaker 1: that person was just worked wearing work clothes, they would 488 00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:00,000 Speaker 1: be you know, X number of people would start following 489 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:01,720 Speaker 1: if he started jaywalking, but when it was a guy 490 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:05,400 Speaker 1: in a suit, three times as many people would follow him. Yeah. 491 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:08,119 Speaker 1: I remember when I was in high school. I remember 492 00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:11,680 Speaker 1: seeing a demonstration where I just thought it was incredibly 493 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:14,000 Speaker 1: cruel at the time, but it was a it was 494 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:16,080 Speaker 1: a a fast talker. It was a guy who just 495 00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:21,920 Speaker 1: spoken and jargon meaningless jargon uh and demonstrating how how 496 00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:25,959 Speaker 1: social pressures would make people agree to things even if 497 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:28,840 Speaker 1: they had no idea what was being said. And I 498 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:31,640 Speaker 1: would demonstrate it by bringing someone who was unaware of 499 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:34,520 Speaker 1: the fact that he was, you know, just a flim 500 00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:37,040 Speaker 1: flam guy. You know, I thought that he was. Was 501 00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:38,920 Speaker 1: introduced to him as if he were an expert in 502 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:42,440 Speaker 1: a particular subject, and then he just started uh, having 503 00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:45,640 Speaker 1: this conversation and saying that after it was over, said, well, 504 00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:48,840 Speaker 1: the reason why she never stopped me to ask what 505 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:51,520 Speaker 1: was going on is there's a social pressure on her 506 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:55,560 Speaker 1: too act like she understands it. And you know, it 507 00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:58,639 Speaker 1: would be it would be mortifying to admit that you 508 00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:02,040 Speaker 1: don't know what what someone meant when they said something 509 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:05,080 Speaker 1: to you in front of a crowd of other people. Yes, well, 510 00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:08,280 Speaker 1: and in fact, that's a that's probably the biggest component 511 00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:11,240 Speaker 1: of what makes stage hypnosis possible. People always ask whether 512 00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:13,479 Speaker 1: or not hypnosis is are real or not. It's like 513 00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:15,920 Speaker 1: it's it's it's real to the extent that you believe 514 00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:19,640 Speaker 1: it's real. But but the biggest factor is the ability. 515 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:23,359 Speaker 1: Like you'll notice that most hypnosis shows begin with with 516 00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:25,600 Speaker 1: very small tests and it's very clear that this is 517 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:28,640 Speaker 1: a test, like I'm telling you what to do, um 518 00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:31,800 Speaker 1: and imagine this and react as if it's real. And 519 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 1: then he says, imagine this, imagine this, and at some 520 00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:37,560 Speaker 1: point he stopped saying imagine, but instead he just says, 521 00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:39,920 Speaker 1: now you're hot, and now you start acting like you're 522 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:42,160 Speaker 1: hot because that's what you've been doing. And then he says, 523 00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:44,920 Speaker 1: now you're cold, and now you're fanning yourself or you're 524 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:47,399 Speaker 1: you're shivering because you're cold, and then and then he 525 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:49,960 Speaker 1: just starts setting up scenes and at some point you've 526 00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:52,159 Speaker 1: entered this contract where he says what to do and 527 00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:55,119 Speaker 1: you acted out, and at some point you realize twenty 528 00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:58,200 Speaker 1: minutes in that you're committed a percent and the only 529 00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:01,960 Speaker 1: way out is to is to ruin the show. Would 530 00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:04,560 Speaker 1: be like, I'm not I'm not hypnotized. So it's like, uh, 531 00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:07,919 Speaker 1: and hypnosis is real, and that there's no way I 532 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:10,360 Speaker 1: could just walk up to somebody and say, hey, get 533 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:12,639 Speaker 1: on stage and pretend to be Lady Gaga. There'll be like, no, 534 00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:15,800 Speaker 1: absolutely not. But hypnosis is real in that it is 535 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:20,960 Speaker 1: a construct that creates a situation where somebody goes way 536 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:24,439 Speaker 1: outside of their comfort zone, because that is a safer 537 00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:27,920 Speaker 1: choice than than blowing up and ruining the stage show. 538 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:30,280 Speaker 1: And on top of that, there is I don't want 539 00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:32,879 Speaker 1: to take away from stage hypnotist, because there is an 540 00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 1: aspect to it where people, when they vividly imagine something 541 00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:39,760 Speaker 1: strong enough, it does induce a physical response. If you've 542 00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:42,280 Speaker 1: ever been to a movie and laughter cried, you know, 543 00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:44,840 Speaker 1: you're crying about a person who never existed and a 544 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:47,240 Speaker 1: thing that never happened, but you make it real in 545 00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:49,840 Speaker 1: your mind. You know that's that's that's as real as 546 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:52,720 Speaker 1: hypnosis is. Well, I have to tell you, Brian that 547 00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:54,480 Speaker 1: if you ever asked me to get up on stage 548 00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:56,919 Speaker 1: and pretend to be Lady Gaga, that's a pact I 549 00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:58,520 Speaker 1: am willing to make with you right here and now, 550 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:02,720 Speaker 1: good good, because you know, no hypnosis necessary. You have 551 00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:08,640 Speaker 1: sold sir. Uh uh. So. The reason why I wanted 552 00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:10,600 Speaker 1: to bring up social engineering is that it's not just 553 00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:14,640 Speaker 1: important in things like like stage magic, but also that's 554 00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:18,320 Speaker 1: one of those tools that that a lot of people 555 00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:22,440 Speaker 1: we call hackers use in order to get access to 556 00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:27,280 Speaker 1: to secure systems and has has nothing to do with 557 00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:30,560 Speaker 1: sitting down at a computer typing in three different passwords, 558 00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:32,840 Speaker 1: and the third ones the one that works. But despite 559 00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:36,360 Speaker 1: the way Hollywood would have us believe, but has more 560 00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:39,960 Speaker 1: frequently has something to do with befriending someone or or 561 00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:44,840 Speaker 1: opposing as a maintenance worker of some sort and just 562 00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:49,480 Speaker 1: engineering your way through people to get access to secure systems, 563 00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:52,960 Speaker 1: because that's way easier than trying to figure out how 564 00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:57,720 Speaker 1: to break through a a technological secure system. Yeah. Absolutely, 565 00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:00,240 Speaker 1: if you think of technology as a sealed room him, 566 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:02,240 Speaker 1: I mean, you could either try to pick that lock, 567 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:04,280 Speaker 1: or you could beat down the door, or you could 568 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:06,840 Speaker 1: just ask nicely for the person behind the counter to 569 00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:09,240 Speaker 1: open it for you. And obviously there's a lot of 570 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:11,400 Speaker 1: people where that last one works best and and the 571 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:13,760 Speaker 1: far and away. The best example of this is if 572 00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:16,320 Speaker 1: if you haven't read the original book, catch Me if 573 00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:19,320 Speaker 1: you can, Uh, it's way better. The movie was was fine, 574 00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:22,320 Speaker 1: but the book is unreal because it's actually written in 575 00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:27,160 Speaker 1: the voice of Frank abcnail, very honestly talking about his exploits, 576 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:29,560 Speaker 1: you know, over the the what two or three years 577 00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:32,760 Speaker 1: that he flew all around the world cashing over million 578 00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:35,120 Speaker 1: dollars in bogus checks. That's one where it's it's a 579 00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:38,920 Speaker 1: case where he realized that wearing the trappings of authority, 580 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:41,959 Speaker 1: by looking like a doctor or looking like a pilot, 581 00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:45,280 Speaker 1: he was able to pass checks that otherwise would never pass. 582 00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:47,719 Speaker 1: Mustard people would be like, this is obviously bogus, get 583 00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:49,520 Speaker 1: out of here, we call the cops. But but when 584 00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:51,480 Speaker 1: it's a when it's a pilot, you know, held in 585 00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:55,320 Speaker 1: such high regard, people just shut up and cashed him. Yeah, 586 00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:58,360 Speaker 1: and uh, Kevin Mitnick's book to that that came out 587 00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:01,960 Speaker 1: recently has been uh has been doing well. And I 588 00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:05,240 Speaker 1: think it's the same thing as the person just explaining 589 00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:08,520 Speaker 1: what what he was doing at the time. Um. Also, 590 00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:11,240 Speaker 1: I just as an aside that we probably shouldn't get into, 591 00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:13,400 Speaker 1: I find it kind of amusing that we're talking about 592 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:15,959 Speaker 1: social engineering and an election year here in the United States. 593 00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:19,920 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, no, I mean that's a boy. I mean 594 00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:22,720 Speaker 1: you'll see, you'll see all kinds of of trappings of authority. 595 00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:24,960 Speaker 1: And that's why part of the reason the little things 596 00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:27,440 Speaker 1: like people can't wait to get to that level of 597 00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:29,719 Speaker 1: success where they can have the secret Service around them, 598 00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:32,760 Speaker 1: because that starts to reinforce the idea that this candidate 599 00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:36,200 Speaker 1: is important, and it starts to uh, reaffirmed that the 600 00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:40,840 Speaker 1: trappings of authority become as important as actual authority. I'm 601 00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:43,080 Speaker 1: just waiting to reach that level of success where I 602 00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:46,840 Speaker 1: can get a decent table at a restaurant. That's I 603 00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:49,520 Speaker 1: like to set realistic goals. I'll tell you what, man, 604 00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:52,800 Speaker 1: it is unreal what a little what one phone call 605 00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:54,880 Speaker 1: will do in in front of me. My friend Dan 606 00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:58,040 Speaker 1: Martin is one of these guys who scams his way 607 00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:02,040 Speaker 1: into upgrades left and right and pretends to be his 608 00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:05,400 Speaker 1: own manager. He he gives another name and says, you know, 609 00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:07,840 Speaker 1: I'm the manager for Daniel Martin. You've probably seen him 610 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:09,800 Speaker 1: on List a bunch of different stuff. And of course 611 00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:11,320 Speaker 1: nobody wants to admit that they don't know who the 612 00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:14,600 Speaker 1: hell damn Dan Martin is. And they're like, oh, yes, no, 613 00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:16,920 Speaker 1: that's great, And he's like, well, listen, here's the thing. 614 00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:19,400 Speaker 1: He's got a very important client that he's trying to impress. 615 00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:21,440 Speaker 1: We understand, there's an hour and a half wait, is 616 00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:23,320 Speaker 1: there any way you guys can take care of us? 617 00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:26,240 Speaker 1: And uh and and sure enough, you know, and I've 618 00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:28,080 Speaker 1: seen him do it. Where we we skipped an hour 619 00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:30,520 Speaker 1: long line to go to the steakhouse. We sit down, 620 00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:34,280 Speaker 1: and then the management comes over and says, oh, thank you, 621 00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:36,200 Speaker 1: Mr Martin, We're so glad to have you here. I 622 00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:39,200 Speaker 1: understand you have a celebrity guest. And without missing a beat, 623 00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:43,000 Speaker 1: he turns to my assistant at the time, Captain MG. 624 00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:45,880 Speaker 1: We called him, uh, this big tall guy. He's just like, yeah, 625 00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:48,000 Speaker 1: you probably you probably seen him in the office. He's 626 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:49,600 Speaker 1: one of the guys who works down in the in 627 00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:52,200 Speaker 1: the warehouse. And instantly people are like, oh, I think 628 00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:55,040 Speaker 1: I do remember you, and a couple of because again, 629 00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:57,200 Speaker 1: nobody wants to admit that they don't remember the guy. 630 00:31:57,520 --> 00:31:59,800 Speaker 1: And and Dan's whole idea is like, look, man, I'm 631 00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:01,600 Speaker 1: doing these people a favor. They're gonna go home and 632 00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:09,600 Speaker 1: talk about the selected. Oh gosh, this reminds me of 633 00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:12,720 Speaker 1: a story my dad tells. Um So, my dad's a 634 00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:17,240 Speaker 1: science fiction author and an English professor and occasionally would 635 00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:21,360 Speaker 1: teach a stint down at the Governor's Honors Program, which 636 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:25,280 Speaker 1: in Georgia is a program that selects I think it's 637 00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:28,600 Speaker 1: around between six hundred and seven hundred high school students 638 00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:32,800 Speaker 1: to study for a summer uh in in very focused groups, 639 00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:35,880 Speaker 1: depending upon you know, whatever their major is for that program. 640 00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:38,200 Speaker 1: I actually went in communicative Arts, which was you know, 641 00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:43,680 Speaker 1: English when back in back. But before that, my dad 642 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:46,080 Speaker 1: was teaching there in the eighties, and he tells a 643 00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:48,280 Speaker 1: story about how he and some of the other teachers, 644 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:51,920 Speaker 1: uh went to I think it was like an International 645 00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:54,600 Speaker 1: House of Pancakes or something like that, some some sort 646 00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:57,200 Speaker 1: of diner, and they walked in and one of their 647 00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:01,080 Speaker 1: one of their fellow teachers, a Frican American fellow who 648 00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:06,520 Speaker 1: wore were traditional African garments occasionally, and they just decided 649 00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:09,280 Speaker 1: on a whim as they walked in that he was 650 00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:14,000 Speaker 1: a visiting dignitary from Africa, and he put on the 651 00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:16,640 Speaker 1: whole role of it, and even went so far as saying, 652 00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:21,400 Speaker 1: these greeds, what these greeds? I would take great, No, honey, 653 00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:24,200 Speaker 1: you're gonna need more than one. Uh So. But yeah, 654 00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:26,160 Speaker 1: they tell the whole story about how they ended up 655 00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:29,400 Speaker 1: the check was picked up, and Dad's the sort where 656 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:30,959 Speaker 1: it was a very funny story, but you could tell 657 00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:35,240 Speaker 1: there was still that little bit of guilt. Yes, And 658 00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:38,840 Speaker 1: that's that's the that's the problem with magic in general, 659 00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:40,640 Speaker 1: is there's some part of me that that is compelled. 660 00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:42,640 Speaker 1: I think that's part of why scam school is good 661 00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:44,600 Speaker 1: for my soul because I don't want to be that 662 00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:47,240 Speaker 1: that that jerk who goes around letting people believe he 663 00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:49,040 Speaker 1: has wizard powers. And there's some part of me that 664 00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:52,240 Speaker 1: wants to tell everyone it's all a lie, which is 665 00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:55,600 Speaker 1: why I really do respect stage magicians who who go 666 00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:57,480 Speaker 1: out other way to say, all right, I'm going to 667 00:33:57,520 --> 00:33:59,880 Speaker 1: perform an illusion for you, and you know it's it's 668 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:02,920 Speaker 1: very clear they're they're they're telling you up front and 669 00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:04,920 Speaker 1: they said, but if you're willing to go with me 670 00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:08,280 Speaker 1: on this trip, you're gonna see something amazing. And yeah, 671 00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:10,880 Speaker 1: and I mean Penn, Penn and Teller do some great 672 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:14,080 Speaker 1: stuff where they even go so far as to say, 673 00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:17,840 Speaker 1: you could question how we do it, but if you 674 00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:20,479 Speaker 1: learn the answer, then it just sort of takes away 675 00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:22,960 Speaker 1: from the performance. The question we wish you would ask 676 00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:26,080 Speaker 1: us is why do we do it? Yeah? I'm like, wow, 677 00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:30,440 Speaker 1: what's what's the quote that we the magicians say magicians 678 00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:32,920 Speaker 1: are guarding an empty vault? Like whatever it is you 679 00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:36,239 Speaker 1: think the method is is way more fantastic than than 680 00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:39,279 Speaker 1: how it actually is. Nothing but disappointment lay on the 681 00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:41,920 Speaker 1: other side of that vault door, except that there are 682 00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:45,200 Speaker 1: a few cases where where the actual method is even 683 00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:47,719 Speaker 1: more interesting than the trick itself. And once that's true, 684 00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:50,440 Speaker 1: then then by all means teach the entire thing. And 685 00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:52,919 Speaker 1: in fact, um it used to be. The very first 686 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:54,759 Speaker 1: episode of scam School we did was something called the 687 00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:59,160 Speaker 1: human chimney, where you essentially make smoke appear from nowhere 688 00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:02,640 Speaker 1: out of your lung and uh. It got great reactions 689 00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:06,640 Speaker 1: when I did it, but everybody thought the method everybody 690 00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:09,560 Speaker 1: assumed was happening was not nearly as interesting as the 691 00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:13,759 Speaker 1: science behind what happens when you you secretly inhaled this 692 00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:17,879 Speaker 1: poisonous white white phosphor, and the white phosphor SAPs out 693 00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:20,319 Speaker 1: all of the moisture out of your lungs, creating this 694 00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:24,200 Speaker 1: super thick water vapor and it Uh. Once I found 695 00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:26,400 Speaker 1: that I get much more joy and a bigger reaction 696 00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:28,880 Speaker 1: out of people by explaining how it's done and encouraging 697 00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:32,120 Speaker 1: them to try it, because it's it's interesting when a 698 00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:35,320 Speaker 1: magician can make spoke apure of the lungs. It's magic 699 00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:39,040 Speaker 1: when somebody could do it to themselves. Yeah, exactly, yea. 700 00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:42,800 Speaker 1: And I've even heard magicians talk about how they would 701 00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:47,880 Speaker 1: see someone do uh. Like some close up magic and uh, 702 00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:49,839 Speaker 1: and they would just you know, they knew a way 703 00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:51,960 Speaker 1: of doing it and that was immediately what they go to. 704 00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:54,160 Speaker 1: They assumed that that's the way. And then when it's 705 00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:56,400 Speaker 1: demonstrated that there's a different way and it might be 706 00:35:56,440 --> 00:36:01,040 Speaker 1: an incredibly difficult and and complain with it requires lots 707 00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:04,720 Speaker 1: more practice than the simple way, but stagement you should say, wow, 708 00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:09,240 Speaker 1: that was amazing. As a matter of fact, the fantastic 709 00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:11,839 Speaker 1: performer Tom Mulika is a legend in magic. He's one 710 00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:13,960 Speaker 1: of the most talented slide around artists out there, and 711 00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:17,040 Speaker 1: he's got that that gift of personality and charisma and 712 00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:19,200 Speaker 1: he did this. He has this like three and a 713 00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:23,440 Speaker 1: half minute routine where he appears to eat one at 714 00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:26,480 Speaker 1: one by one, an entire box of cigarettes. Uh. And 715 00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:29,200 Speaker 1: there's actually heavy these are lit cigarettes. He lights them all, 716 00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:30,880 Speaker 1: he smokes them all at once. He has this you know, 717 00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:34,480 Speaker 1: it's like that Homer Simpson photo of the mouthful of cigarettes. Uh. 718 00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:37,600 Speaker 1: He does that and then appears to swallow all of 719 00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:40,319 Speaker 1: them and there's heavy duty, awesome side of hand going 720 00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:43,200 Speaker 1: on in there. But he goes to fism and if 721 00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:45,040 Speaker 1: you don't know f I s M is like the 722 00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:47,319 Speaker 1: Olympics of Magic. They have it. I think every third 723 00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:50,360 Speaker 1: or second year. A couple of years ago, was in 724 00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:53,760 Speaker 1: in China. But he goes to FISSM and just totally 725 00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:57,200 Speaker 1: bombs because all of the judges just assume this guy's 726 00:36:57,239 --> 00:36:59,719 Speaker 1: a freak who just swallowed a bunch of lit cigarettes. 727 00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:02,920 Speaker 1: Nobody knew it was magic, and as a result, he 728 00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:06,920 Speaker 1: he didn't win. Wow. Yeah, isn't that is that crazy? 729 00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:10,359 Speaker 1: That's that's almost an accolade. Awesome enough all on its own, 730 00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:12,600 Speaker 1: I'm sure. Yeah, that's part of it. I'm sure that's 731 00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:16,520 Speaker 1: why the story is being told. Well. To transition out 732 00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:18,480 Speaker 1: of this, I wanted to talk more about some of 733 00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:20,680 Speaker 1: the other projects you've worked on, some of which are 734 00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:23,879 Speaker 1: closely related to technology. In fact, one of these we've 735 00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:27,000 Speaker 1: we've talked about on our show in the past, and 736 00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:29,000 Speaker 1: I think I might have even talked about this before 737 00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:32,000 Speaker 1: I met you, which is the whole idea of leaving 738 00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:35,080 Speaker 1: behind a virtual ghost. Yeah, I remember that. Yeah, I 739 00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:36,840 Speaker 1: think I think it might have been before we we 740 00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:40,839 Speaker 1: had met each other. Yeah, that's the the afterlife dot 741 00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:43,720 Speaker 1: Me project. Um, if you we don't really have anything 742 00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:44,880 Speaker 1: up there, but if you want to sign up to 743 00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:47,560 Speaker 1: be notified when it's a I'm gonna make sure it's 744 00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:51,040 Speaker 1: actually still alive here before that's a f T E 745 00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:55,279 Speaker 1: r l y f E dot me afterlife dot me. Uh, 746 00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:57,600 Speaker 1: it's it's the nuts and bolts are are being tinkered 747 00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:02,000 Speaker 1: with by Patrick Dela Hanty, who's super talented web developer. 748 00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:05,399 Speaker 1: And uh, you're starting to see similar projects pop up, 749 00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:08,480 Speaker 1: but all of them they're all sanctimonious, and they're all like, 750 00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:11,480 Speaker 1: you know, we're here to help with the grieving process, 751 00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:14,000 Speaker 1: and we're here to we're here to clean up your 752 00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:17,600 Speaker 1: data after you passed away. After lifetime me is freaking honest. 753 00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:22,480 Speaker 1: After Lifetime is an opportunity to become a virtual ghost 754 00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:25,080 Speaker 1: just to annoy and freak out everyone for the rest 755 00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:28,320 Speaker 1: of eternity. Uh. And essentially what happens is it's a 756 00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:30,640 Speaker 1: dead man switch where every day, every year, on your birthday, 757 00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:32,520 Speaker 1: you log in and let it know you're alive, and 758 00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:34,759 Speaker 1: of course it will bug you by email to UH 759 00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:37,160 Speaker 1: to tell you to um, you know, make sure to 760 00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:39,800 Speaker 1: check in, but if it doesn't hear back, it assumes 761 00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:42,160 Speaker 1: you're dead and then it takes all of your past 762 00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:46,040 Speaker 1: tweets and just starts repeating them on the same times 763 00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:48,839 Speaker 1: at the same dates that you said it year after year. 764 00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:52,160 Speaker 1: And what I love about this is, isn't that what 765 00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:56,160 Speaker 1: ghosts are in history are items that don't know they're dead. 766 00:38:56,239 --> 00:38:59,319 Speaker 1: These these echoes that think they're going about the daily 767 00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:01,880 Speaker 1: business of their life when they're not. And the idea 768 00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:04,520 Speaker 1: that we could do that digitally forever. You know, it's 769 00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:08,040 Speaker 1: like picking up the kids, Merry Christmas and the birth 770 00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:10,160 Speaker 1: day in the bank. You know, all these things that 771 00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:13,160 Speaker 1: you say year after year can become these digital echoes 772 00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:16,080 Speaker 1: for all eternity. I think it's really cool as an 773 00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:19,839 Speaker 1: art project. And um, you know, I some people say 774 00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:22,560 Speaker 1: it's tacky. Yes, it very likely is, but a lot 775 00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:24,560 Speaker 1: of art can be tacky, and I think it's really 776 00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:27,080 Speaker 1: cool performance art. Personally, I I love it. I mean, 777 00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:29,000 Speaker 1: I just love the idea of someone reading a tweet 778 00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:31,799 Speaker 1: and saying, Jonathan's been dead for twenty years and he's 779 00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:35,719 Speaker 1: still slamming the iPad. Yeah, well and think about this well, 780 00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:37,160 Speaker 1: and that will be the other thing too. It's like 781 00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:40,200 Speaker 1: it'll be more hilarious to hear you talking about stuff 782 00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:45,640 Speaker 1: that doesn't like Amy Winehouse die. You know, I think 783 00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:47,879 Speaker 1: that'll that will become funny over time. But also think 784 00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:50,320 Speaker 1: about the apt replies where all of a sudden you 785 00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:53,919 Speaker 1: whisper a happy birthday to someone from five years after 786 00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:55,680 Speaker 1: the fact. This just tells me that I just need 787 00:39:55,719 --> 00:39:59,720 Speaker 1: to make a lot more younger friends. That's right, because 788 00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:02,200 Speaker 1: I I do want to irritate people after I mean, 789 00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:04,080 Speaker 1: I do it while I'm alive. Why would I want 790 00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:07,000 Speaker 1: to stop after I'm dead. I want to irritate people. 791 00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:09,440 Speaker 1: So you know, it's a great idea. As soon as 792 00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:12,319 Speaker 1: I heard it, I completely appreciated it for what it 793 00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:16,360 Speaker 1: was being being sort of a mischievous prank poller myself, 794 00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:20,520 Speaker 1: I found it. I found it incredibly appealing. Um so 795 00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:22,960 Speaker 1: why don't we talk about You can talk about some 796 00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:25,000 Speaker 1: of the other shows you do, because we haven't really 797 00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:27,920 Speaker 1: covered any of those. You've got some stuff on the 798 00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:32,279 Speaker 1: Twitter network, for example. And also you I do want 799 00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:34,480 Speaker 1: to hear more about your experience with the Scam School 800 00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:37,800 Speaker 1: e book please Yeah. Well, Scam School, of course, is 801 00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:40,080 Speaker 1: is the big coming out party that I had for 802 00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:42,480 Speaker 1: with the internet. Um but a lot of people were 803 00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:45,120 Speaker 1: surprised when it turns out I knew anything about technology 804 00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:48,600 Speaker 1: as well. My past life. I I spent a year 805 00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:51,719 Speaker 1: testing video games for Rockwell Semiconductors for a year, which 806 00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:54,600 Speaker 1: was awesome. And I spent almost three years at Dell 807 00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:58,000 Speaker 1: and their high end sales support, you know, designing networks 808 00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:01,520 Speaker 1: for small businesses, or build high end systems for you know, 809 00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:05,480 Speaker 1: three D modelers, animators, that kind of thing. Uh and uh, 810 00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:07,920 Speaker 1: that's the first time I did this Weekend Tech. It 811 00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:11,160 Speaker 1: just seemed like a natural fit. And Leo is nice 812 00:41:11,239 --> 00:41:13,040 Speaker 1: enough to give me a number of shows to do, 813 00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:16,840 Speaker 1: and now I'm doing three programs over there, including NSFW. 814 00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:22,000 Speaker 1: Is is an utterly volatile powder keg where we never 815 00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:23,840 Speaker 1: know what's gonna happen. Half the time, it blows up 816 00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:26,440 Speaker 1: in our face. Every so often, we have moments of 817 00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:29,719 Speaker 1: awesome hilarity. Um, it's it's almost it's a very weird 818 00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:33,040 Speaker 1: show because it's almost openly hostile to new people trying 819 00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:35,239 Speaker 1: to visit it. So if you don't understand what's going on, 820 00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:36,960 Speaker 1: just give it a couple more episodes and see if 821 00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:39,239 Speaker 1: it's seeks in. It's kind of your head with a 822 00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:42,240 Speaker 1: hammer feels really good. Anytime you have Justin Robert Young involved, 823 00:41:42,239 --> 00:41:46,239 Speaker 1: there's gonna be volatility exactly exactly. Uh, And then I 824 00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:48,880 Speaker 1: started hosting a Frame Rate with Tom Merritt, which is 825 00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:52,040 Speaker 1: a whole show about this whole emerging space with new media. 826 00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:55,920 Speaker 1: This is in many ways the most exciting time to 827 00:41:56,120 --> 00:41:58,640 Speaker 1: be a broadcaster or be somebody who's interested in reaching 828 00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:02,200 Speaker 1: a large audience of all time, because essentially we're seeing 829 00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:04,840 Speaker 1: exactly now the exact same thing that happened in the 830 00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:08,600 Speaker 1: nineteen fifties with broadcast television and then in nineteen seventies 831 00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:12,319 Speaker 1: with cable television. When when broadcast television began, there was 832 00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:14,920 Speaker 1: no market because nobody had TVs, nobody knew what to do, 833 00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:16,839 Speaker 1: and nobody had any money. So they just took their 834 00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:18,840 Speaker 1: radio figures and threw them in front of a screen. 835 00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:21,560 Speaker 1: And then they figured out that television is a different 836 00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:23,480 Speaker 1: medium than these other things, and they were able to 837 00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:25,560 Speaker 1: tell their own unique stories in their own unique ways. 838 00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:29,000 Speaker 1: Same thing happened in the seventies with cable. Nobody was watching, 839 00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:30,400 Speaker 1: so all of a sudden, there's all this band with 840 00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:32,960 Speaker 1: all these channels. People are just throwing stuff. Ted Turner 841 00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:36,319 Speaker 1: takes his local TBS W TBS station and throws it, 842 00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:38,720 Speaker 1: calls it a superstation. But then all of a sudden 843 00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:41,880 Speaker 1: it becomes TBS this powerhouse. Same thing with CNN. It 844 00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:43,919 Speaker 1: wasn't even possible to have a twenty four hour news 845 00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:46,840 Speaker 1: network beforehand. So nowadays we're in the wild West of 846 00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:51,040 Speaker 1: new media with just distribution from YouTube, with podcasting, with 847 00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:53,799 Speaker 1: with pretty much anyone who's got a story to tell 848 00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:58,080 Speaker 1: now has a global opportunity to to reach an audience 849 00:42:58,120 --> 00:43:02,320 Speaker 1: worldwide and it cost him nothing. That there's no barrier 850 00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:05,960 Speaker 1: to access and it's a it's this awesome land rush 851 00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:09,840 Speaker 1: to see who can become king of which little circuits 852 00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:12,520 Speaker 1: out there, because whoever gets there first has a huge advantage. 853 00:43:12,560 --> 00:43:14,839 Speaker 1: That's the reason CNN was number one for so long 854 00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:17,000 Speaker 1: was because it was the first twenty four hour cables 855 00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:20,480 Speaker 1: network and it was everyone else was just couldn't couldn't 856 00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:23,399 Speaker 1: top it. And so likewise that was the big push 857 00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:26,040 Speaker 1: wick for why I did UH scam School. So anyway, 858 00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:28,640 Speaker 1: that's what frame rate is about, is about the emerging 859 00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:33,120 Speaker 1: digital transition, watching some new media stars transition to television 860 00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:35,799 Speaker 1: and vice versa and UH And of course now we're 861 00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:39,240 Speaker 1: hosting Game on on on twit which is every Sunday 862 00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:42,040 Speaker 1: night Live. We talked about the video game news and reviews. 863 00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:45,759 Speaker 1: And that's with Veronica Belmont. Yes I should lead off 864 00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:49,680 Speaker 1: with that we like and that's fine. It's you know, Veronica, 865 00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:53,520 Speaker 1: I I love her. She Um. She has shot me 866 00:43:53,640 --> 00:43:56,200 Speaker 1: the look of death at least three times in my 867 00:43:56,239 --> 00:43:59,400 Speaker 1: life and I have survived. So I got it once 868 00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:03,680 Speaker 1: or twice. So it's there's a hair trigger, you know. 869 00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:06,759 Speaker 1: Just it's right on the right ground. I don't want 870 00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:08,680 Speaker 1: to get in trouble. But one of my favorite things 871 00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:12,520 Speaker 1: about posting Game on is seeing the Veronica Belmont that 872 00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:15,960 Speaker 1: that will never show herself on the internet. She is. 873 00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:20,000 Speaker 1: She is delightfully, hilariously crass. She is a wonderful person. 874 00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:21,879 Speaker 1: And that's all I'm going to say about this because 875 00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:24,719 Speaker 1: I'm posting this show. Brian Brushwood had other things to say, 876 00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:27,279 Speaker 1: but Jonathan Strickland just loves her all right. So um, 877 00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:30,480 Speaker 1: now that we've got that clear, yeah, so tell tell 878 00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:33,279 Speaker 1: us more about this e book. Oh my god. So 879 00:44:33,560 --> 00:44:36,799 Speaker 1: for years I've been flapping my gums about how I 880 00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:38,680 Speaker 1: want to do a book for the Scam school Book. 881 00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:41,360 Speaker 1: And originally I had all these designs on a physical 882 00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:43,480 Speaker 1: book that would have like magic ee kind of properties 883 00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:45,600 Speaker 1: to it. Uh. The problem of course, is that physical 884 00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:48,120 Speaker 1: media unless you get picked up by a big publisher 885 00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:51,239 Speaker 1: who wants to invest a hundred thousand dollars. Uh, it's 886 00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:56,160 Speaker 1: extremely it's the development costs are are are high, the 887 00:44:56,280 --> 00:44:58,360 Speaker 1: printing costs are high, especially if you want to do 888 00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:02,440 Speaker 1: something nonstandard or tricky with the pages. Uh. And you 889 00:45:02,520 --> 00:45:04,799 Speaker 1: miss out on what's great about Scam School because of 890 00:45:04,840 --> 00:45:07,279 Speaker 1: course we have all these episodes and the only way 891 00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:09,000 Speaker 1: to get from a book to an episode would be 892 00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:11,799 Speaker 1: like a clugi kind of QR code thing. And have 893 00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:13,680 Speaker 1: you ever used that? If any of you guys ever 894 00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:16,399 Speaker 1: read a book that a QR codes and actually pulled 895 00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:17,719 Speaker 1: out your phone and clicked on it, went to the 896 00:45:17,719 --> 00:45:21,520 Speaker 1: page once or twice, but you know, it's it's definitely, 897 00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:24,840 Speaker 1: it's definitely there's a barrier there. It's just like with 898 00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:28,560 Speaker 1: podcasts and and suggesting, like we tell in our podcast 899 00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:30,560 Speaker 1: for people to go and read the articles and how 900 00:45:30,600 --> 00:45:32,960 Speaker 1: stuff works. But that's kind of challenging because you know, 901 00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:36,200 Speaker 1: it's two different, separate media. So to tell someone to 902 00:45:36,239 --> 00:45:39,400 Speaker 1: go and and read this article and the article is amazing, 903 00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:41,200 Speaker 1: and that it goes into far more detail than we 904 00:45:41,239 --> 00:45:43,680 Speaker 1: ever could in a podcast and has visual effects and 905 00:45:43,719 --> 00:45:46,520 Speaker 1: all that kind of stuff. Um, it's it's it's a 906 00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:50,439 Speaker 1: smaller number of people who make that transition. We love 907 00:45:50,520 --> 00:45:52,839 Speaker 1: those people and we would love that number to grow, 908 00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:55,560 Speaker 1: but we understand it's it's two different media and often 909 00:45:55,880 --> 00:45:58,359 Speaker 1: you know what you're doing in one instance is not 910 00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:01,280 Speaker 1: really you don't. There's no way to pour it over easily. 911 00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:03,440 Speaker 1: Like if I'm mowing the lawn and listening to a podcast, 912 00:46:03,600 --> 00:46:06,120 Speaker 1: I'm obviously not gonna jump on line and read an 913 00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:09,880 Speaker 1: article about, you know, quantum suicide exactly. So it's one 914 00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:11,480 Speaker 1: of those things where it's like you need to have 915 00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:14,719 Speaker 1: as smooth a transition as possible. And uh about I 916 00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:17,399 Speaker 1: guess two years ago when Kindle really started to get 917 00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:20,759 Speaker 1: more popular, and of course uh iTunes started up their eyebookstore, 918 00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:22,640 Speaker 1: I was like, oh dude, and it's gotta be it's 919 00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:25,440 Speaker 1: gotta be e books, and so we we converted some 920 00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:27,680 Speaker 1: of my old books to e books and we figured 921 00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:31,400 Speaker 1: out really fast what a nightmare this This entire industry 922 00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:33,920 Speaker 1: is in right now as far as like proper format, 923 00:46:33,960 --> 00:46:37,399 Speaker 1: and you've got competing formats dot mobi, dot e pub 924 00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:41,400 Speaker 1: They they handle stuff differently. They have different capabilities in 925 00:46:41,520 --> 00:46:44,600 Speaker 1: dot in dot moby with a Kindle format, it's not 926 00:46:44,680 --> 00:46:48,319 Speaker 1: even possible to wrap text around an image. All you 927 00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:51,440 Speaker 1: can have is text, text, text block. Here's an image, 928 00:46:51,719 --> 00:46:54,279 Speaker 1: and you can't control the size of it. It'll it'll 929 00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:58,560 Speaker 1: reformat stuff. Uh. It was so difficult to try to 930 00:46:58,600 --> 00:47:01,439 Speaker 1: build this tool that I really and disheartened as far 931 00:47:01,480 --> 00:47:03,560 Speaker 1: as ever reaching that goal of what I wanted to do, 932 00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:06,759 Speaker 1: if have something that was rich media, that was detailed, 933 00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:10,120 Speaker 1: that was pretty, that was highly interactive, and had embedded 934 00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:14,439 Speaker 1: media content. But then along comes this company book that's 935 00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:18,560 Speaker 1: v O o kay dot com and they essentially are 936 00:47:18,560 --> 00:47:22,400 Speaker 1: trying to create a their own platform that once you 937 00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:25,920 Speaker 1: create the book in book, you press publish and it 938 00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:28,560 Speaker 1: converts it to dot mobi, dot e pub and it 939 00:47:28,680 --> 00:47:31,440 Speaker 1: and it sends it out to to Barnes and Noble, 940 00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:34,719 Speaker 1: to to Amazon and two iTunes. So with one click 941 00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:38,280 Speaker 1: publishing you're able to create really good looking e books 942 00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:42,239 Speaker 1: and with rich embedded media. And so we we participated 943 00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:44,680 Speaker 1: in their beta program, which was a little bit heroin 944 00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:47,560 Speaker 1: because there were times where the entire book would vanish 945 00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:50,479 Speaker 1: or chapter which they disappear. We get on the phone, 946 00:47:50,520 --> 00:47:52,239 Speaker 1: We're like, let's go on. They're like don't worry, We'll 947 00:47:52,239 --> 00:47:56,120 Speaker 1: fix it. It's magic exactly like it's beta. But they 948 00:47:56,360 --> 00:47:58,680 Speaker 1: but they had by the time we were done with 949 00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:01,520 Speaker 1: the book, I'm I was extraordinarily proud of it. It 950 00:48:01,640 --> 00:48:04,160 Speaker 1: is it is unlike any other e book I've seen 951 00:48:04,640 --> 00:48:07,839 Speaker 1: in that it's uh it's almost like a Harry Potter book, 952 00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:12,520 Speaker 1: where where the pictures and illustrations come alive, there's there's 953 00:48:12,560 --> 00:48:16,239 Speaker 1: seventy audio commentary. I've never seen audio commentary tracks for 954 00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:19,000 Speaker 1: chapters in a book before. Uh. And and it's amazing 955 00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:22,560 Speaker 1: because the book itself is is a collection of eight 956 00:48:22,680 --> 00:48:25,520 Speaker 1: plus tricks from the Scam School series. These are all 957 00:48:25,560 --> 00:48:28,000 Speaker 1: things that are either street cons to watch out for 958 00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:30,720 Speaker 1: or ways to score free drink, some kick ass magic 959 00:48:30,719 --> 00:48:33,200 Speaker 1: tricks and if you really nasty pranks to pull on 960 00:48:33,239 --> 00:48:37,000 Speaker 1: your friends. And it's I love the media format because 961 00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:39,799 Speaker 1: I can spend two paragraphs explaining how to hold your 962 00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:42,919 Speaker 1: pinky when you're holding a deck of cards. But none 963 00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:45,120 Speaker 1: of that's as useful as when you press when you 964 00:48:45,160 --> 00:48:47,600 Speaker 1: press on the on the photo and all of a sudden, 965 00:48:47,600 --> 00:48:50,680 Speaker 1: it comes alive and illustrates animated for you and shows 966 00:48:50,719 --> 00:48:52,919 Speaker 1: you exactly what you're supposed to do. So it's got 967 00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:55,960 Speaker 1: it's got seventy plus audio commentary tracks and uh forty 968 00:48:55,960 --> 00:48:59,880 Speaker 1: plus illustrations, and out of everything, I'm most pleased with 969 00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:02,480 Speaker 1: the fact that Teller of Penn and Teller allowed me 970 00:49:02,600 --> 00:49:05,920 Speaker 1: to publish an essay he wrote me seventeen years ago 971 00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:10,000 Speaker 1: when I was nineteen years old, UH and looking for 972 00:49:10,080 --> 00:49:12,000 Speaker 1: my place in magic. I wrote a letter to Teller 973 00:49:12,360 --> 00:49:14,600 Speaker 1: and he was kind enough to write a response, like 974 00:49:14,640 --> 00:49:18,799 Speaker 1: a four page essay talking about creativity and magic. And UH. 975 00:49:18,840 --> 00:49:21,120 Speaker 1: Being able to publish that and share the word on 976 00:49:21,160 --> 00:49:24,600 Speaker 1: that has been extremely gratifying. So I am very very happy. 977 00:49:24,719 --> 00:49:26,600 Speaker 1: If you go to scam school book dot com you 978 00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:29,480 Speaker 1: can find all all the different platforms. Fantastic. Yeah, And 979 00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:32,200 Speaker 1: that that is exciting to me because you know, we've 980 00:49:32,200 --> 00:49:36,760 Speaker 1: been talking about this whole electronic book uh medium and 981 00:49:36,760 --> 00:49:40,719 Speaker 1: and what the potential is and that it's been several 982 00:49:40,840 --> 00:49:43,440 Speaker 1: years in the making, and and it's so exciting that 983 00:49:43,520 --> 00:49:45,000 Speaker 1: it looks like now we're getting to the point where 984 00:49:45,000 --> 00:49:48,000 Speaker 1: people are actually really cracking that nut, where they've managed 985 00:49:48,040 --> 00:49:52,120 Speaker 1: to find a way to incorporate the different abilities you 986 00:49:52,239 --> 00:49:57,279 Speaker 1: have in something like a web based presence and the 987 00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:01,719 Speaker 1: things you have within a ectronic text, and that it's 988 00:50:01,760 --> 00:50:05,040 Speaker 1: being brought together in ways to to really cater to 989 00:50:05,080 --> 00:50:07,360 Speaker 1: a wider audience. Really because and we all know that 990 00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:11,279 Speaker 1: people favor different ways to learn information. You know, some 991 00:50:11,280 --> 00:50:13,840 Speaker 1: people some people reading texts that's what they like, and 992 00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:16,279 Speaker 1: some people they have to see it work for it 993 00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:20,080 Speaker 1: to really have an impact. And this is I was 994 00:50:20,080 --> 00:50:22,840 Speaker 1: gonna say, this is an important phase we're entering with 995 00:50:22,920 --> 00:50:25,200 Speaker 1: the books. Were just as we figured out that television 996 00:50:25,320 --> 00:50:29,240 Speaker 1: is not radio with pictures. E books are not books 997 00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:33,040 Speaker 1: on your iPad. It's it's an inherently different platform with 998 00:50:33,160 --> 00:50:36,400 Speaker 1: different strengths and weak weaknesses. And I honestly feel like 999 00:50:36,680 --> 00:50:39,319 Speaker 1: like the Scam School Book is the first book on 1000 00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:42,200 Speaker 1: the shelves, you know this minute that truly takes advantage 1001 00:50:42,280 --> 00:50:45,440 Speaker 1: of that unique nature and speaks the language of digital 1002 00:50:45,440 --> 00:50:47,879 Speaker 1: e books, and the reviews seem to indicate that there 1003 00:50:47,920 --> 00:50:50,320 Speaker 1: is something special happening there. That's awesome. Yeah, And I 1004 00:50:50,600 --> 00:50:53,480 Speaker 1: mean I think the next if I were to put 1005 00:50:53,520 --> 00:50:56,840 Speaker 1: on my prognosticator had I would say the next step 1006 00:50:57,480 --> 00:51:02,040 Speaker 1: as far as the medium starting to come into its own, Uh, 1007 00:51:02,160 --> 00:51:04,319 Speaker 1: the e book is is what's happening now? I think 1008 00:51:04,320 --> 00:51:08,160 Speaker 1: the next step is augmented reality, because right now we're 1009 00:51:08,160 --> 00:51:10,480 Speaker 1: seeing it used in things like commercials and that kind 1010 00:51:10,480 --> 00:51:13,800 Speaker 1: of or games. But the idea of having a world 1011 00:51:13,880 --> 00:51:16,680 Speaker 1: of information overlaid on top of the real world around 1012 00:51:16,719 --> 00:51:20,560 Speaker 1: you and anchoring that information in the world to give 1013 00:51:20,560 --> 00:51:23,880 Speaker 1: it real and impactful meaning to the person who's who's 1014 00:51:23,960 --> 00:51:26,839 Speaker 1: looking at it and whatever context that might be, because 1015 00:51:26,880 --> 00:51:30,160 Speaker 1: there could be endless number of contexts for any particular region. 1016 00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:34,000 Speaker 1: That to me, that's the That's why I keep on 1017 00:51:34,239 --> 00:51:37,320 Speaker 1: whenever I get an opportunity, I keep on mentioning Google, 1018 00:51:37,680 --> 00:51:41,080 Speaker 1: if you're making those glasses, I want to pair absolutely. 1019 00:51:42,600 --> 00:51:46,640 Speaker 1: I fully believe that that you're already seeing this in 1020 00:51:46,680 --> 00:51:51,560 Speaker 1: the military, the video gamification of your job and uh 1021 00:51:51,840 --> 00:51:54,000 Speaker 1: and they are, Um, I don't know. I guess the 1022 00:51:54,040 --> 00:51:57,520 Speaker 1: military really pioneered the idea of of badges and medals 1023 00:51:57,600 --> 00:52:01,239 Speaker 1: and achievements. But but you know, of course we see 1024 00:52:01,280 --> 00:52:03,600 Speaker 1: it and stuff like World of Warcraft when you're grinding 1025 00:52:03,640 --> 00:52:05,560 Speaker 1: all the time. And a friend of mine is now 1026 00:52:05,719 --> 00:52:08,360 Speaker 1: a he was the CEO of a company put together 1027 00:52:08,680 --> 00:52:12,720 Speaker 1: a business plan to try to pitch the idea of 1028 00:52:12,719 --> 00:52:16,000 Speaker 1: of of of an achievement based system for all of 1029 00:52:16,000 --> 00:52:19,480 Speaker 1: his employees based on their class and their and their 1030 00:52:19,520 --> 00:52:22,919 Speaker 1: missions or their tasks where they could they could level 1031 00:52:23,000 --> 00:52:25,960 Speaker 1: up and get perks, they could win badges. The whole 1032 00:52:25,960 --> 00:52:28,960 Speaker 1: thing was clearly modeled right after World of Warcraft, and 1033 00:52:29,400 --> 00:52:31,920 Speaker 1: he I don't know if you ever implemented it, but 1034 00:52:31,960 --> 00:52:34,680 Speaker 1: it was so obviously right when I read it that 1035 00:52:34,800 --> 00:52:37,960 Speaker 1: I fully expect us to see more companies running their 1036 00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:41,480 Speaker 1: businesses like a video game. I'm right there with you. 1037 00:52:41,719 --> 00:52:44,640 Speaker 1: I expect that as well, especially since gamification is still 1038 00:52:45,239 --> 00:52:50,080 Speaker 1: an incredibly powerful buzzword in the business world. So well, Brian, 1039 00:52:50,239 --> 00:52:53,239 Speaker 1: thank you so much for taking the time to talk 1040 00:52:53,280 --> 00:52:57,040 Speaker 1: with us. This has been a great discussion, really fascinating dude. 1041 00:52:57,080 --> 00:52:59,279 Speaker 1: Anytime you guys want me to talk about anything, just 1042 00:52:59,320 --> 00:53:02,960 Speaker 1: give me a call. We will take you up on that. Guys, 1043 00:53:03,280 --> 00:53:06,320 Speaker 1: definitely check out Brian Brushwood's work. Check out his Scam 1044 00:53:06,360 --> 00:53:10,120 Speaker 1: School ebook. Uh. The guy does some pretty amazing stuff 1045 00:53:10,160 --> 00:53:13,560 Speaker 1: and uh and he's just a super dude. So everyone 1046 00:53:13,680 --> 00:53:16,080 Speaker 1: check that out and we will talk to you again 1047 00:53:16,200 --> 00:53:20,759 Speaker 1: really soon. Be sure to check out our new video podcast, 1048 00:53:20,960 --> 00:53:23,839 Speaker 1: Stuff from the Future. Join How Stuff Work staff as 1049 00:53:23,880 --> 00:53:27,600 Speaker 1: we explore the most promising and perplexing possibilities of tomorrow. 1050 00:53:28,760 --> 00:53:31,480 Speaker 1: The House Stuff Works iPhone app has arrived. Download it 1051 00:53:31,520 --> 00:53:38,919 Speaker 1: today on iTunes. Brought to you by the reinvented two 1052 00:53:38,920 --> 00:53:41,440 Speaker 1: thousand twelve camera. It's ready, are you