WEBVTT - The Time I Was Built For with Chris Mosier 0:00:00.440 --> 0:00:03.400 Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain, where we're already 0:00:03.480 --> 0:00:06.400 knee deep in hot nuts and Christmas cookies and the 0:00:06.440 --> 0:00:10.600 real holiday party stretch hasn't even begun. It's Thursday, December twelfth, 0:00:10.600 --> 0:00:13.920 and today Team USA athlete and founder of transathlete dot 0:00:13.960 --> 0:00:16.760 com Chris Moser joins the show. We talk about how 0:00:16.800 --> 0:00:20.480 he's staying positive and hopeful post election, the motivation behind 0:00:20.480 --> 0:00:23.840 trans athlete bands and lawsuits, and how anti trans rhetoric 0:00:23.880 --> 0:00:25.680 is affecting CIS women in sports too. 0:00:26.079 --> 0:00:27.000 Plus now is a. 0:00:26.960 --> 0:00:30.040 Great time to hear about successes and moments of joy. 0:00:30.400 --> 0:00:32.960 Lord knows we need some joy, so today we help 0:00:33.040 --> 0:00:34.199 celebrate some slices. 0:00:34.479 --> 0:00:35.919 It's all coming up right after this. 0:00:43.640 --> 0:00:45.920 Welcome back, Mish has got your need to know today, 0:00:45.960 --> 0:00:51.599 Take it away, Mesh. 0:00:49.120 --> 0:00:52.159 Thank you, Sarah. To college hoops, where we're gearing up 0:00:52.200 --> 0:00:54.840 for a top ten tip off. The number two Yukon 0:00:54.920 --> 0:00:57.560 Huskies take on number eight Notre Dame in the Shamrock 0:00:57.600 --> 0:01:01.400 Classic tonight at seven pm Eastern on EA. The dynamic 0:01:01.440 --> 0:01:04.800 guard duo of sophomore Hand Hidalgo and senior Olivia Miles 0:01:04.880 --> 0:01:06.520 has had a hell of a season so far for 0:01:06.560 --> 0:01:10.160 the Fighting Irish, averaging over forty points a game, combined 0:01:10.240 --> 0:01:13.040 under the tutelage of former point guard Neil Ivy, who 0:01:13.120 --> 0:01:15.520 led Notre Dame to its first national championship as a 0:01:15.520 --> 0:01:18.600 player back in one. The Huskies will be without star 0:01:18.720 --> 0:01:21.080 Azy Fudd, who suffered a minor right knee brain and 0:01:21.160 --> 0:01:24.679 last Saturday's win over Louisville. Coach Gino Oriema said Fud 0:01:24.720 --> 0:01:27.040 is expected to be out all week, which will also 0:01:27.160 --> 0:01:30.240 likely include Yukon's Big East Conference opener against Georgetown this 0:01:30.280 --> 0:01:31.000 coming Sunday. 0:01:32.280 --> 0:01:37.600 Live Laugh, Love college vibs. I know you guys love it. 0:01:37.640 --> 0:01:39.520 You can't stop saying it now, And all I'm gonna 0:01:39.520 --> 0:01:43.520 say is you're welcome. The NCAA Tournament continues tonight with 0:01:43.600 --> 0:01:46.319 the start of the Round of sixteen. The four matches 0:01:46.360 --> 0:01:48.800 this evening include number one pit taking on number four 0:01:48.840 --> 0:01:52.160 Oregon and number one Louisville against number four per Due. 0:01:52.280 --> 0:01:54.280 Will link to the full tournament schedule in our show 0:01:54.280 --> 0:01:58.160 notes and have you been keeping up with our bracket challenge? 0:01:58.480 --> 0:02:01.000 Producer Alex wants y'all to know that she's currently tied 0:02:01.000 --> 0:02:05.560 for third in the standings. Sarah, meanwhile, is forty sixth, 0:02:06.080 --> 0:02:10.480 so let's just move on from college vibes, we turn 0:02:10.560 --> 0:02:14.440 to professional vibes. League one Volleyball, also known as LOVE, 0:02:14.600 --> 0:02:17.600 announced its full broadcast plans for the league's inaugural season, 0:02:17.639 --> 0:02:21.440 which begins on January eighth. This season, all sixty games 0:02:21.440 --> 0:02:24.280 will be available to stream either on ESPN plus, the 0:02:24.280 --> 0:02:30.760 Women's Sports Network, or Dazen Daisen the Zone Anyway, with 0:02:30.840 --> 0:02:34.680 a handful of games also on ESPN two and ESPNU plus. 0:02:34.840 --> 0:02:37.320 The LOVE Finals, which will take place from April tenth 0:02:37.320 --> 0:02:40.720 through the thirteenth, will air on ESPN two. Will link 0:02:40.760 --> 0:02:45.040 to the full broadcast schedule in our show notes to lacrosse, 0:02:45.280 --> 0:02:47.679 The new Women's Lacrosse League has announced the names and 0:02:47.760 --> 0:02:51.280 logos for its inaugural four teams, the Boston Guard, New 0:02:51.360 --> 0:02:55.520 York Charging, Maryland Charm and California Palms. The teams also 0:02:55.520 --> 0:02:59.040 announced their respective captains. Charlotte North, who won a national 0:02:59.040 --> 0:03:01.880 title at Boston College twenty twenty one, we'll return to 0:03:01.919 --> 0:03:05.120 that city to lead the Guard. Northwestern alum Izzy Scain 0:03:05.240 --> 0:03:08.079 is heading up New York Terps national champ alex Os 0:03:08.120 --> 0:03:11.080 Holman will play for Maryland, and Ali Mastriani has the 0:03:11.080 --> 0:03:14.760 hopes of California resting on her shoulders. The WL also 0:03:14.800 --> 0:03:18.120 announced the schedule for its twenty twenty five LEXUS Championship Series, 0:03:18.360 --> 0:03:21.079 a joint tournament with the men's league the PLL or 0:03:21.160 --> 0:03:24.200 Premier Lacrosse League. The series comes to the nation's capital, 0:03:24.480 --> 0:03:28.920 more specifically Springfield, Virginia, February eleventh through the seventeenth. This 0:03:28.960 --> 0:03:32.200 will be the first time that all four WL teams compete, 0:03:32.280 --> 0:03:34.760 and tickets are on sale now will put the link 0:03:34.840 --> 0:03:37.640 to purchase in our show notes. Did I mention I 0:03:37.840 --> 0:03:41.240 love living? You know what I'm gonna say. I ain't 0:03:41.280 --> 0:03:45.600 even got to say it. Thank you, Misha. We got 0:03:45.600 --> 0:03:47.600 to take a break when we come back. A predictably 0:03:47.640 --> 0:03:51.960 thoughtful but surprisingly uplifting conversation with my friend Chris. 0:03:51.680 --> 0:03:58.960 Mojer joining US now. 0:03:59.000 --> 0:04:01.080 He's an eight time member of Team USA, a four 0:04:01.120 --> 0:04:04.120 time national champion, the first transgender athlete to represent the 0:04:04.200 --> 0:04:07.720 US and international competition, first transgender athlete and the ESPN 0:04:07.760 --> 0:04:10.880 body issue, first transgender athletes sponsored by Nike, and first 0:04:10.880 --> 0:04:13.280 transgender athlete to qualify for the Olympic Trials, and the 0:04:13.320 --> 0:04:16.360 gender they identify. He's the founder of transathlete dot com, 0:04:16.360 --> 0:04:19.240 a resource for students athletes coaches and administrators to find 0:04:19.279 --> 0:04:22.400 info about trans inclusion and athletics at all levels of play. 0:04:22.600 --> 0:04:25.359 He has spoken across the world about inclusion in sports, 0:04:25.360 --> 0:04:28.400 his experience as a transgender athlete, athlete, activism, and creating 0:04:28.440 --> 0:04:30.960 more inclusive spaces. And he trained my friend in a 0:04:31.040 --> 0:04:33.560 triathlon and I see him at sky Games. 0:04:33.600 --> 0:04:35.320 It's Chris Moser. What's up, Chris? 0:04:35.920 --> 0:04:37.200 Hello, Thanks for having me. 0:04:37.680 --> 0:04:40.400 I'm so glad to have you here. I just want 0:04:40.440 --> 0:04:42.799 to start with how you're doing. It's been a rough 0:04:42.880 --> 0:04:46.279 couple weeks for me, and I am a mostly privileged 0:04:46.279 --> 0:04:48.240 class at least for now, although it seems like women 0:04:48.279 --> 0:04:51.360 are getting progressively less able to control our own bodies 0:04:51.360 --> 0:04:51.760 and lives. 0:04:51.800 --> 0:04:55.360 But I feel like for my marginalized. 0:04:54.800 --> 0:04:57.480 Friends are particularly my trans friends, it's been particularly tough. 0:04:57.520 --> 0:04:59.840 So how are you y? 0:05:00.200 --> 0:05:02.200 Thanks for asking, you know, it is definitely a loaded 0:05:02.320 --> 0:05:04.800 question these days. I feel like there's a little asterix 0:05:04.880 --> 0:05:07.520 on that question for everybody, like how are you doing? 0:05:07.839 --> 0:05:11.919 All things considered right? Like I'm doing okay. I feel 0:05:11.960 --> 0:05:14.800 like I had my good cry, I had my real 0:05:14.920 --> 0:05:17.880 freak out moment for sure, and I definitely am kind 0:05:17.920 --> 0:05:20.240 of going in and out of those those moments, but 0:05:20.880 --> 0:05:26.400 I feel so activated and inspired to you know, I 0:05:26.440 --> 0:05:29.040 feel like this is this is the time that I 0:05:29.120 --> 0:05:32.839 was built for. I really feel motivated and inspired to 0:05:33.600 --> 0:05:36.480 stand in my power, to stand in my identity, and 0:05:36.600 --> 0:05:39.200 to really use this moment as a way to create 0:05:39.279 --> 0:05:41.680 change in the world. And I sort of feel like 0:05:41.720 --> 0:05:45.240 that's my only option, right, Like it's either that or what. Like, 0:05:45.920 --> 0:05:48.360 we weren't put on this earth just to survive. I 0:05:48.400 --> 0:05:50.720 was put here to thrive, I believe, and so I 0:05:50.760 --> 0:05:54.560 want to create the conditions to make that the most 0:05:54.600 --> 0:05:57.039 possible in my life and other people's lives. 0:05:57.640 --> 0:05:59.640 I'm so inspired to hear that. I really hope that 0:05:59.640 --> 0:06:01.360 comes back to me. I feel like I have such 0:06:01.360 --> 0:06:04.520 an activist spirit. And in other times I've been like, Okay, 0:06:04.520 --> 0:06:05.760 I'm gonna be sad and then I'm going to get 0:06:05.800 --> 0:06:08.320 right back at it. I'm having trouble bouncing back the 0:06:08.360 --> 0:06:08.719 same way. 0:06:08.720 --> 0:06:09.080 This time. 0:06:09.120 --> 0:06:12.800 I just feel so incredibly deflated, and I'm believing in 0:06:12.839 --> 0:06:15.480 my natural state of like ripshit up and it's that. 0:06:15.480 --> 0:06:17.799 It's going to come back. I'm not quite. 0:06:17.600 --> 0:06:20.120 There yet, yeah, and that's fair. You know. I want 0:06:20.120 --> 0:06:23.120 to say, Sarah, like I believe you are creating. You know, 0:06:23.160 --> 0:06:26.680 you are doing activism by doing the show, by sharing stories, 0:06:26.680 --> 0:06:30.320 by elevating and using your platform to provide other people 0:06:30.480 --> 0:06:34.520 like myself the opportunity to share our experiences and our expertise. 0:06:35.040 --> 0:06:37.960 But also I feel like this might be helpful for 0:06:38.040 --> 0:06:40.320 you and for your listeners about why I can feel 0:06:40.320 --> 0:06:43.520 inspired right now, And it's really because I truly believe 0:06:43.560 --> 0:06:47.160 two things are true. I believe people are inherently good, 0:06:47.839 --> 0:06:50.359 and it has really been a challenge for me to 0:06:50.440 --> 0:06:52.640 lean into that belief in the last couple of weeks, 0:06:52.960 --> 0:06:55.400 in the outcome of the election, in seeing in the 0:06:55.720 --> 0:06:57.560 path and the direction that the world is going. But 0:06:57.960 --> 0:07:00.680 I do truly believe that people are in good, that 0:07:00.720 --> 0:07:04.040 they want to do good. And then I also secondly 0:07:04.080 --> 0:07:06.960 believe that people are capable of change, and that when 0:07:07.000 --> 0:07:09.200 you know better, you can do better. And when you 0:07:09.320 --> 0:07:11.800 meet somebody with an identity that you don't have and 0:07:12.280 --> 0:07:14.840 talk to them like a human, you know we can 0:07:14.960 --> 0:07:16.880 create change in this world. And those are the two 0:07:16.960 --> 0:07:19.360 things that I have to believe in every single day 0:07:19.400 --> 0:07:21.040 to be able to show up and do the work 0:07:21.040 --> 0:07:21.520 that I do. 0:07:22.120 --> 0:07:25.000 That's really smart too, because that is true. We know 0:07:25.120 --> 0:07:25.720 that it's true. 0:07:25.760 --> 0:07:28.800 We know that when people come into contact with trans people, 0:07:28.840 --> 0:07:31.200 gay people, immigrants, people of a different color, people of 0:07:31.240 --> 0:07:33.560 a different religion, and they're forced to actually interact with them, 0:07:33.600 --> 0:07:35.640 they tend to change their minds. There's so many really 0:07:35.720 --> 0:07:38.800 high profile public examples of that, and unfortunately, we are 0:07:39.000 --> 0:07:42.520 finding ourselves tribalized in ways that allows for fear mongering 0:07:42.560 --> 0:07:46.080 to create what feels like bad people, and more often 0:07:46.080 --> 0:07:48.880 than not, you're probably right. They're misinformed, they're scared, they're 0:07:48.880 --> 0:07:51.120 worried about their own interest, and it results in what 0:07:51.200 --> 0:07:55.280 feels like very hateful voting, very hateful policy, Which is 0:07:55.320 --> 0:07:58.040 why you're here, because it feels like in the last 0:07:58.080 --> 0:08:02.400 couple of years, the around trans people, both in life 0:08:02.400 --> 0:08:05.239 and in sport, has become so bifurcated in the sense 0:08:05.240 --> 0:08:07.840 of like you either think everyone's in one extreme or 0:08:07.880 --> 0:08:10.080 the other. Either they're hateful and awful and they think 0:08:10.120 --> 0:08:13.080 trans people shouldn't exist, or on the other side, they 0:08:13.080 --> 0:08:16.720 want trans participation in sport regardless of policy or equality 0:08:16.800 --> 0:08:19.840 or fairness. And there's actually so much middle ground to 0:08:19.920 --> 0:08:22.600 talk about if you're willing to have a conversation, and 0:08:22.640 --> 0:08:24.320 so I want to start there. How do you think 0:08:24.360 --> 0:08:28.360 we got here where it feels so black and white. 0:08:29.240 --> 0:08:32.560 Yeah, Well, the truth is sports is incredibly polarizing for 0:08:32.679 --> 0:08:35.360 a lot of people, and for folks who don't even 0:08:35.400 --> 0:08:38.040 play sports, who have literally no skin in the game here. 0:08:38.360 --> 0:08:40.800 They have an opinion about sports. They have an opinion 0:08:41.000 --> 0:08:44.839 about fairness, they have an opinion about level of play, 0:08:45.040 --> 0:08:48.320 about competitive nature, and they have a set of beliefs 0:08:48.400 --> 0:08:51.240 that they believe are right and wrong for the rules 0:08:51.240 --> 0:08:54.920 of sport. The truth is, sport is a very binary system. 0:08:55.120 --> 0:08:57.960 You know, like sport didn't create the gender binary, it 0:08:58.040 --> 0:09:02.120 lives within it. And that complicates this conversation a little 0:09:02.120 --> 0:09:05.280 bit more. But I believe that sports became the entry 0:09:05.320 --> 0:09:08.680 point for the attacks on trans people. And I've been 0:09:08.760 --> 0:09:11.480 saying this for the last decade now. You know, twenty fifteen, 0:09:11.559 --> 0:09:15.040 twenty sixteen, we started to see bathroom bands pop up 0:09:15.080 --> 0:09:19.160 around the country, and famously North Carolina pushed back on 0:09:19.400 --> 0:09:21.840 HB two, and we actually saw a lot of the 0:09:21.840 --> 0:09:24.800 sports world get involved in that fight at that time. 0:09:25.440 --> 0:09:28.520 And you know, it's a good question what happened between 0:09:28.559 --> 0:09:31.480 twenty sixteen where there was all of this outrage about 0:09:31.559 --> 0:09:35.679 bathroom bands and about attacks on trans people's autonomy and 0:09:35.720 --> 0:09:39.760 ability to exist in public spaces. And twenty twenty when 0:09:39.800 --> 0:09:42.880 we saw our first anti transports ban go into effect 0:09:43.160 --> 0:09:46.480 right before COVID hit. You know, I think that that 0:09:46.600 --> 0:09:49.920 sport is just a real opportunity for people to dip 0:09:49.960 --> 0:09:52.320 their foot in. And when we started to see the 0:09:52.360 --> 0:09:55.319 bands on sports get passed, it was very soon after 0:09:55.360 --> 0:09:58.040 that every single one of those states started to attack 0:09:58.080 --> 0:10:01.080 trans people in a different way. So whether it was 0:10:01.120 --> 0:10:04.800 about medical care, or it was about school pronouns and 0:10:04.960 --> 0:10:08.680 forced outing in elementary schools, or library books or drag queens, 0:10:08.720 --> 0:10:11.280 you know, we started to see these attacks from all angles, 0:10:11.520 --> 0:10:15.120 and sport really was just the entry point to those attacks, 0:10:15.320 --> 0:10:18.280 because I really don't believe it's about sports, and I 0:10:18.320 --> 0:10:21.120 really don't believe it's even about health care or about 0:10:21.320 --> 0:10:23.839 library books. It's about trying to make it so that 0:10:23.880 --> 0:10:27.120 trans kids don't grow up to be trans adults, and 0:10:27.160 --> 0:10:29.480 that trans adults have such a horrible time here that 0:10:29.520 --> 0:10:32.760 they can't live safe, open, healthy and happy lives out 0:10:32.760 --> 0:10:33.280 in public. 0:10:33.800 --> 0:10:35.120 And so this is much. 0:10:35.080 --> 0:10:38.280 Bigger than sports. Sports was just the easy access point 0:10:38.280 --> 0:10:40.440 because everybody has an opinion about it. 0:10:40.880 --> 0:10:43.600 An opinion, and because it is, to your point, alongside bathrooms, 0:10:43.640 --> 0:10:45.600 one of the few places where we are very firm 0:10:45.800 --> 0:10:48.960 in our decision making around the binary of gender. In 0:10:49.240 --> 0:10:52.240 almost any other space in life, there are you know, 0:10:52.360 --> 0:10:54.560 you could walk into any department of the store and 0:10:54.600 --> 0:10:55.920 you can buy a whole bunch of men's clothes if 0:10:55.960 --> 0:10:57.040 that's what you want, or women's. 0:10:56.760 --> 0:10:58.400 Clothes or whatever. They're not actually going to stop you wear. 0:10:58.480 --> 0:11:01.079 Sports and bathrooms are the place where you're supposed to 0:11:01.120 --> 0:11:03.760 be limited, and it allows people, to your point, to 0:11:03.840 --> 0:11:06.920 come in under the guise of caring about women's in girls' sport. 0:11:07.320 --> 0:11:10.000 And then once you've turned people against trans people and 0:11:10.000 --> 0:11:12.520 demonized them in a specific way, you can then start 0:11:12.520 --> 0:11:14.920 pushing for their autonomy and rights to be affected in 0:11:14.960 --> 0:11:18.360 ways that previously people would not even consider voting for 0:11:18.679 --> 0:11:21.600 or doing. But now that you've made them evil, you 0:11:21.640 --> 0:11:24.480 can now try to take away their right to exist. 0:11:25.559 --> 0:11:28.520 You know, you opened up about your identity, about the 0:11:28.559 --> 0:11:31.400 gender you identify as in what you wanted to play, 0:11:31.440 --> 0:11:34.760 as you advocated for policy change years ago, well before 0:11:34.800 --> 0:11:38.440 this issue was mainstream. Why or as a result of 0:11:38.480 --> 0:11:40.560 what do you attribute your ability to do that so 0:11:40.679 --> 0:11:42.839 early in a space that was so unwelcoming. 0:11:43.240 --> 0:11:45.600 Well, a couple of reasons. The first is that I'm 0:11:45.640 --> 0:11:48.960 a trans man, and so I navigate the world already 0:11:49.000 --> 0:11:53.120 with inherited privilege of being perceived as a straight white dude, 0:11:53.480 --> 0:11:57.160 and so I transition from being, you know, a masculine 0:11:57.240 --> 0:12:00.000 presenting quote unquote woman who never felt like a woman, 0:12:00.080 --> 0:12:02.920 and to being perceived as a straight white guy, and 0:12:03.440 --> 0:12:06.160 that did provide me a lot of privilege to navigate 0:12:06.200 --> 0:12:10.040 spaces without issue. I think the second part of that 0:12:10.120 --> 0:12:12.720 in the sports context is that because I was assigned 0:12:12.720 --> 0:12:15.520 female at birth, people didn't think that I'd be competitive 0:12:15.559 --> 0:12:18.640 with men and therefore kind of gave me a shoulder 0:12:18.640 --> 0:12:23.040 shrug and go ahead and participate. We're not worried about 0:12:23.040 --> 0:12:26.120 you in terms of being competitive, And even when I 0:12:26.200 --> 0:12:29.439 have had athletic success, which I have been fortunate enough 0:12:29.480 --> 0:12:31.640 to have in the men's category, it's still got to 0:12:31.640 --> 0:12:34.760 get a shrug. And there are multiple reasons given from 0:12:34.800 --> 0:12:37.559 any troll on the internet about why it's not legit 0:12:37.760 --> 0:12:40.560 or it's not really worth paying attention to. On the 0:12:40.559 --> 0:12:43.000 flip side of that, any trans woman who just wants 0:12:43.040 --> 0:12:45.960 to participate in a sport, even in a recreational five 0:12:46.080 --> 0:12:49.199 k in their local town is facing pushback because of 0:12:49.960 --> 0:12:53.240 the myths and misinformation that have circulated. So I was 0:12:53.280 --> 0:12:55.640 able to create change early on because there was a 0:12:55.679 --> 0:12:58.760 lack of information out there, because we didn't have this 0:12:58.920 --> 0:13:03.000 full scale fear mongering campaign that exists right now trying 0:13:03.040 --> 0:13:06.400 to make people believe certain things about the trans community. 0:13:07.080 --> 0:13:10.040 Yeah, I remember it was probably a decade ago that 0:13:10.080 --> 0:13:13.720 you were at the espnW summit in California, pool Side, 0:13:14.000 --> 0:13:16.960 giving a lecture about policy at different levels and really 0:13:17.000 --> 0:13:20.000 just using information that existed to help people understand an 0:13:20.040 --> 0:13:22.880 issue that was relatively new. There was a survey one year, 0:13:22.880 --> 0:13:25.840 probably around the same time, maybe just after that, because 0:13:25.920 --> 0:13:28.440 usually that's around October at the end of the year, 0:13:28.720 --> 0:13:31.480 asking us, some members of ESPN to fill out some 0:13:32.040 --> 0:13:33.920 general ideas about stories we'd like to do or things 0:13:33.920 --> 0:13:35.240 we'd like to see, And one of them was what 0:13:35.280 --> 0:13:37.200 do you think is a big issue in sports that 0:13:37.280 --> 0:13:39.720 needs to be tackled that's coming up? And I wrote 0:13:39.960 --> 0:13:42.480 trans inclusion, trans participation, Like we need to get out 0:13:42.480 --> 0:13:45.400 ahead of this and start using information because I watched 0:13:45.440 --> 0:13:48.400 the way your presentation changed the minds of people who 0:13:48.480 --> 0:13:50.920 were either afraid or unsure or just didn't know. And 0:13:51.000 --> 0:13:53.600 I think that's part of the problem here, is people 0:13:53.600 --> 0:13:56.559 are motivated by a lack of knowledge, but not all 0:13:56.559 --> 0:13:59.440 of them are seeking it right. So I wonder what 0:13:59.480 --> 0:14:01.959 you think the main motivating factor is for those who 0:14:02.000 --> 0:14:05.800 are not involved in women's sports. They aren't addressing lack 0:14:05.840 --> 0:14:09.360 of resources, toxic and abusive coaches, sexual assault and harassment, 0:14:09.480 --> 0:14:13.600 under investment, unequal opportunity, Title nine violations, the many, many, 0:14:13.640 --> 0:14:16.080 many things that we could be addressing when it comes 0:14:16.080 --> 0:14:18.520 to inequality and lack of fairness for women and girls 0:14:18.520 --> 0:14:20.200 in sport. They're not doing any of that, but they 0:14:20.240 --> 0:14:22.880 are spending their time advocating against trans participation. 0:14:23.200 --> 0:14:25.240 What do you think the main motivating factor for those 0:14:25.240 --> 0:14:25.680 people is? 0:14:26.360 --> 0:14:29.160 It's absolutely political. I mean, I wish that there was 0:14:29.200 --> 0:14:32.400 another way I could say it, but the GOP spent 0:14:32.560 --> 0:14:36.080 over two hundred and fifteen million dollars in this campaign 0:14:36.520 --> 0:14:40.920 presidential election campaign on ads that were against the trans community. 0:14:41.480 --> 0:14:45.920 Trump Advance spent over twenty million dollars on this topic alone. 0:14:46.040 --> 0:14:48.120 And if you think about the number of trans people 0:14:48.120 --> 0:14:51.280 that are actually participating in sports, you know, it's an 0:14:51.320 --> 0:14:56.560 outrageous number to put on any topic, but particularly one 0:14:56.600 --> 0:15:00.560 that is, so, you know, not an issue. We've said 0:15:00.560 --> 0:15:03.280 for years, this is a solution in search of a problem, 0:15:03.360 --> 0:15:06.240 and what we've seen is actually that the folks who 0:15:06.320 --> 0:15:09.640 don't want trans people to exist. And I say it 0:15:09.720 --> 0:15:12.080 like that because a lot of these sports organizations that 0:15:12.120 --> 0:15:14.520 are trying to get trans people to not be able 0:15:14.600 --> 0:15:18.160 to participate in sports, and particularly in women's sports. The 0:15:18.240 --> 0:15:22.160 other tenets of those organizations are to keep transwomen in 0:15:22.280 --> 0:15:25.120 men's prisons and to make sure that trans people can't 0:15:25.200 --> 0:15:27.840 change their gender marker on their IDs. So again, this 0:15:27.920 --> 0:15:28.840 is not about sports. 0:15:28.840 --> 0:15:29.760 This is about. 0:15:29.480 --> 0:15:34.880 Overarching transphobia, misogyny, sexism that exists in the world and 0:15:35.120 --> 0:15:38.320 targeting the trans community in different ways, and so sports 0:15:38.400 --> 0:15:40.800 is just one of the ways, but obviously a very 0:15:40.800 --> 0:15:44.080 successful way. We've seen that right wing media has more 0:15:44.120 --> 0:15:48.240 clicks and hits on pieces about trans athletes than any 0:15:48.280 --> 0:15:51.960 other piece about the trans community or LGBTQ people at large, 0:15:52.320 --> 0:15:55.400 and so this is a hot button topic that they 0:15:55.520 --> 0:15:57.480 know will get them the clicks, the likes, the views, 0:15:57.520 --> 0:16:01.880 the shares, and therefore that INCENTI devises more content about it. 0:16:02.320 --> 0:16:05.640 But also we're seeing that this content is very one sided. 0:16:06.040 --> 0:16:08.480 So in most of the articles that come out, they 0:16:08.520 --> 0:16:11.280 never speak to a trans athlete or to even an 0:16:11.400 --> 0:16:15.360 LGBTQ plus organization that supports the trans community, and so 0:16:15.400 --> 0:16:18.440 we're seeing a lot of propaganda pieces. And when that's 0:16:18.480 --> 0:16:20.680 the information that's out there, when ninety percent of the 0:16:20.800 --> 0:16:23.760 articles are saying that trans people are monsters, that there 0:16:23.760 --> 0:16:26.400 are a threatened sports, it doesn't matter that there are 0:16:26.560 --> 0:16:31.160 zero professional transomen athletes right now in the United States. 0:16:31.360 --> 0:16:33.920 What we're seeing is that, you know, trans athletes are 0:16:34.000 --> 0:16:36.840 the problem with women's sports, and this dynamic has been 0:16:36.840 --> 0:16:39.680 set up so that people without the information, like you said, 0:16:39.760 --> 0:16:43.200 or aren't seeking out the information, believe this to be true, 0:16:43.480 --> 0:16:47.720 and then for really solid opinions on it, that they 0:16:47.720 --> 0:16:49.720 will plant their flag in the ground and not be 0:16:49.760 --> 0:16:51.120 willing to get new information. 0:16:51.400 --> 0:16:54.560 And I think that's what's so frustrating is I'm open 0:16:54.600 --> 0:16:57.840 to having these conversations. I want to talk to people 0:16:57.840 --> 0:16:59.960 about policy at different levels and the best way to 0:17:00.120 --> 0:17:02.400 handle things and how to make sure it is fair 0:17:02.400 --> 0:17:05.960 and equitable and safe. But so often it comes at 0:17:06.000 --> 0:17:08.280 the price of having a conversation with someone who will 0:17:08.280 --> 0:17:12.080 not use someone's correct pronouns and name, who refuses to 0:17:12.080 --> 0:17:14.720 acknowledge their identity. And if you can't, at least start 0:17:15.040 --> 0:17:18.960 by acknowledging and respecting somebody before the conversation begins. I 0:17:19.000 --> 0:17:21.440 don't believe that you're someone who wants to learn and change, 0:17:21.480 --> 0:17:24.000 and that makes it really difficult. Have you been asked 0:17:24.160 --> 0:17:27.440 to have those kind of conversations with quote unquote the 0:17:27.440 --> 0:17:30.600 opposite side and what's your take on being able to 0:17:30.880 --> 0:17:33.320 actually change minds through those kind of debates? 0:17:34.280 --> 0:17:37.000 Yeah? I have. I would say there was a period 0:17:37.040 --> 0:17:38.840 of time where it was more than one a week, 0:17:38.920 --> 0:17:41.160 but about once a week I get a request from 0:17:41.200 --> 0:17:45.760 a TV show, a podcast, radio show, whatever to have 0:17:45.800 --> 0:17:49.439 a debate quote unquote debate, right, so, to talk about 0:17:49.520 --> 0:17:52.520 both sides of the issue, And when it's really framed 0:17:52.600 --> 0:17:55.199 up as a debate, I'm not willing to go onto 0:17:55.320 --> 0:17:58.919 any show and debate my humanity because that's really what 0:17:59.000 --> 0:18:01.360 is happening here. To your point, For me to sit 0:18:01.440 --> 0:18:05.199 with somebody who refuses to use appropriate names and pronouns 0:18:05.240 --> 0:18:08.400 of trans people, what that shows me is that those 0:18:08.480 --> 0:18:12.240 people don't believe that trans people exist. Right. If you're 0:18:12.240 --> 0:18:15.200 just fundamentally unwilling to call a trans woman a woman 0:18:15.560 --> 0:18:19.600 who is of trans experience to continually misgender her and 0:18:19.680 --> 0:18:22.960 say that she's a biological man or whatever. We've seen 0:18:23.000 --> 0:18:27.320 that those those words, that language weaponized against our community, 0:18:27.720 --> 0:18:29.560 and I just I won't do it. I don't think 0:18:29.560 --> 0:18:32.240 it's helpful for me to sit and debate. I don't 0:18:32.240 --> 0:18:35.200 think it's helpful for my mental health, first and foremost. 0:18:35.480 --> 0:18:37.119 But I don't think it's going to change hearts and 0:18:37.200 --> 0:18:40.560 minds because if the goal in those in those episodes 0:18:40.680 --> 0:18:43.560 is to win, right, no one's going to be open 0:18:43.760 --> 0:18:46.720 to learn about my experience or what the trans community 0:18:46.760 --> 0:18:49.760 is actually facing. So I think there are different ways 0:18:49.800 --> 0:18:52.600 to create change, and I do believe that there is 0:18:52.720 --> 0:18:55.480 a movable middle. Right. There are people who just don't 0:18:55.520 --> 0:18:57.920 have the information or who have heard a certain thing 0:18:57.920 --> 0:19:00.280 and are curious to learn more, and just I don't 0:19:00.280 --> 0:19:02.520 know a respected source to go to. And I think 0:19:02.520 --> 0:19:05.199 that I can talk to those people and you know, 0:19:06.240 --> 0:19:08.600 and share my experience and share the experiences of my 0:19:08.640 --> 0:19:11.520 community in a way that's not shoving it down their 0:19:11.520 --> 0:19:13.840 throat or trying to get them to change. But I 0:19:13.880 --> 0:19:16.080 believe if they're open to change, they can at least 0:19:16.119 --> 0:19:19.240 hear my side, right, Because I'm not here to force 0:19:19.359 --> 0:19:22.800 change upon anybody. I truly believe if you hear the 0:19:22.840 --> 0:19:25.600 facts and the information, it would make you scratch your 0:19:25.600 --> 0:19:27.840 head and go, I wonder why this is such a 0:19:27.920 --> 0:19:30.280 hot button issue right now? Why are we spending so 0:19:30.400 --> 0:19:33.040 much money and so much time on this topic right now? 0:19:33.400 --> 0:19:35.960 And so you know, I'm willing to have those conversations, 0:19:36.240 --> 0:19:38.000 but not to put myself in the line of fire, 0:19:38.080 --> 0:19:41.600 because that doesn't make anybody change their minds, and it 0:19:41.600 --> 0:19:44.359 doesn't make anybody happy either in terms of my community, 0:19:44.400 --> 0:19:48.440 in terms of other folks. It just creates more polarization, right. 0:19:48.320 --> 0:19:49.919 I think, to your point, like if the goal is 0:19:49.960 --> 0:19:53.199 to win a debate, there's way too much nuance in 0:19:53.240 --> 0:19:56.879 this conversation. To your point, we're trying to operate in 0:19:56.960 --> 0:19:59.879 a binary system of sports. When we understand that hu 0:20:00.359 --> 0:20:03.919 are not binary. There is this spectrum. We are not 0:20:04.080 --> 0:20:06.879 operating with the scientific belief anymore that you're male or 0:20:06.880 --> 0:20:09.719 female and there's nothing else. There's so much more, and 0:20:10.000 --> 0:20:12.280 trying to shove that into a binary system is why 0:20:12.320 --> 0:20:15.000