Speaker 1: Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain, where we're already
Speaker 1: knee deep in hot nuts and Christmas cookies and the
Speaker 1: real holiday party stretch hasn't even begun. It's Thursday, December twelfth,
Speaker 1: and today Team USA athlete and founder of transathlete dot
Speaker 1: com Chris Moser joins the show. We talk about how
Speaker 1: he's staying positive and hopeful post election, the motivation behind
Speaker 1: trans athlete bands and lawsuits, and how anti trans rhetoric
Speaker 1: is affecting CIS women in sports too.
Speaker 2: Plus now is a.
Speaker 1: Great time to hear about successes and moments of joy.
Speaker 1: Lord knows we need some joy, so today we help
Speaker 1: celebrate some slices.
Speaker 2: It's all coming up right after this.
Speaker 1: Welcome back, Mish has got your need to know today,
Speaker 1: Take it away, Mesh.
Speaker 3: Thank you, Sarah. To college hoops, where we're gearing up
Speaker 3: for a top ten tip off. The number two Yukon
Speaker 3: Huskies take on number eight Notre Dame in the Shamrock
Speaker 3: Classic tonight at seven pm Eastern on EA. The dynamic
Speaker 3: guard duo of sophomore Hand Hidalgo and senior Olivia Miles
Speaker 3: has had a hell of a season so far for
Speaker 3: the Fighting Irish, averaging over forty points a game, combined
Speaker 3: under the tutelage of former point guard Neil Ivy, who
Speaker 3: led Notre Dame to its first national championship as a
Speaker 3: player back in one. The Huskies will be without star
Speaker 3: Azy Fudd, who suffered a minor right knee brain and
Speaker 3: last Saturday's win over Louisville. Coach Gino Oriema said Fud
Speaker 3: is expected to be out all week, which will also
Speaker 3: likely include Yukon's Big East Conference opener against Georgetown this
Speaker 3: coming Sunday.
Speaker 2: Live Laugh, Love college vibs. I know you guys love it.
Speaker 3: You can't stop saying it now, And all I'm gonna
Speaker 3: say is you're welcome. The NCAA Tournament continues tonight with
Speaker 3: the start of the Round of sixteen. The four matches
Speaker 3: this evening include number one pit taking on number four
Speaker 3: Oregon and number one Louisville against number four per Due.
Speaker 3: Will link to the full tournament schedule in our show
Speaker 3: notes and have you been keeping up with our bracket challenge?
Speaker 3: Producer Alex wants y'all to know that she's currently tied
Speaker 3: for third in the standings. Sarah, meanwhile, is forty sixth,
Speaker 3: so let's just move on from college vibes, we turn
Speaker 3: to professional vibes. League one Volleyball, also known as LOVE,
Speaker 3: announced its full broadcast plans for the league's inaugural season,
Speaker 3: which begins on January eighth. This season, all sixty games
Speaker 3: will be available to stream either on ESPN plus, the
Speaker 3: Women's Sports Network, or Dazen Daisen the Zone Anyway, with
Speaker 3: a handful of games also on ESPN two and ESPNU plus.
Speaker 3: The LOVE Finals, which will take place from April tenth
Speaker 3: through the thirteenth, will air on ESPN two. Will link
Speaker 3: to the full broadcast schedule in our show notes to lacrosse,
Speaker 3: The new Women's Lacrosse League has announced the names and
Speaker 3: logos for its inaugural four teams, the Boston Guard, New
Speaker 3: York Charging, Maryland Charm and California Palms. The teams also
Speaker 3: announced their respective captains. Charlotte North, who won a national
Speaker 3: title at Boston College twenty twenty one, we'll return to
Speaker 3: that city to lead the Guard. Northwestern alum Izzy Scain
Speaker 3: is heading up New York Terps national champ alex Os
Speaker 3: Holman will play for Maryland, and Ali Mastriani has the
Speaker 3: hopes of California resting on her shoulders. The WL also
Speaker 3: announced the schedule for its twenty twenty five LEXUS Championship Series,
Speaker 3: a joint tournament with the men's league the PLL or
Speaker 3: Premier Lacrosse League. The series comes to the nation's capital,
Speaker 3: more specifically Springfield, Virginia, February eleventh through the seventeenth. This
Speaker 3: will be the first time that all four WL teams compete,
Speaker 3: and tickets are on sale now will put the link
Speaker 3: to purchase in our show notes. Did I mention I
Speaker 3: love living? You know what I'm gonna say. I ain't
Speaker 3: even got to say it. Thank you, Misha. We got
Speaker 3: to take a break when we come back. A predictably
Speaker 3: thoughtful but surprisingly uplifting conversation with my friend Chris.
Speaker 2: Mojer joining US now.
Speaker 1: He's an eight time member of Team USA, a four
Speaker 1: time national champion, the first transgender athlete to represent the
Speaker 1: US and international competition, first transgender athlete and the ESPN
Speaker 1: body issue, first transgender athletes sponsored by Nike, and first
Speaker 1: transgender athlete to qualify for the Olympic Trials, and the
Speaker 1: gender they identify. He's the founder of transathlete dot com,
Speaker 1: a resource for students athletes coaches and administrators to find
Speaker 1: info about trans inclusion and athletics at all levels of play.
Speaker 1: He has spoken across the world about inclusion in sports,
Speaker 1: his experience as a transgender athlete, athlete, activism, and creating
Speaker 1: more inclusive spaces. And he trained my friend in a
Speaker 1: triathlon and I see him at sky Games.
Speaker 2: It's Chris Moser. What's up, Chris?
Speaker 4: Hello, Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1: I'm so glad to have you here. I just want
Speaker 1: to start with how you're doing. It's been a rough
Speaker 1: couple weeks for me, and I am a mostly privileged
Speaker 1: class at least for now, although it seems like women
Speaker 1: are getting progressively less able to control our own bodies
Speaker 1: and lives.
Speaker 2: But I feel like for my marginalized.
Speaker 1: Friends are particularly my trans friends, it's been particularly tough.
Speaker 2: So how are you y?
Speaker 4: Thanks for asking, you know, it is definitely a loaded
Speaker 4: question these days. I feel like there's a little asterix
Speaker 4: on that question for everybody, like how are you doing?
Speaker 4: All things considered right? Like I'm doing okay. I feel
Speaker 4: like I had my good cry, I had my real
Speaker 4: freak out moment for sure, and I definitely am kind
Speaker 4: of going in and out of those those moments, but
Speaker 4: I feel so activated and inspired to you know, I
Speaker 4: feel like this is this is the time that I
Speaker 4: was built for. I really feel motivated and inspired to
Speaker 4: stand in my power, to stand in my identity, and
Speaker 4: to really use this moment as a way to create
Speaker 4: change in the world. And I sort of feel like
Speaker 4: that's my only option, right, Like it's either that or what. Like,
Speaker 4: we weren't put on this earth just to survive. I
Speaker 4: was put here to thrive, I believe, and so I
Speaker 4: want to create the conditions to make that the most
Speaker 4: possible in my life and other people's lives.
Speaker 1: I'm so inspired to hear that. I really hope that
Speaker 1: comes back to me. I feel like I have such
Speaker 1: an activist spirit. And in other times I've been like, Okay,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna be sad and then I'm going to get
Speaker 1: right back at it. I'm having trouble bouncing back the
Speaker 1: same way.
Speaker 2: This time.
Speaker 1: I just feel so incredibly deflated, and I'm believing in
Speaker 1: my natural state of like ripshit up and it's that.
Speaker 2: It's going to come back. I'm not quite.
Speaker 4: There yet, yeah, and that's fair. You know. I want
Speaker 4: to say, Sarah, like I believe you are creating. You know,
Speaker 4: you are doing activism by doing the show, by sharing stories,
Speaker 4: by elevating and using your platform to provide other people
Speaker 4: like myself the opportunity to share our experiences and our expertise.
Speaker 4: But also I feel like this might be helpful for
Speaker 4: you and for your listeners about why I can feel
Speaker 4: inspired right now, And it's really because I truly believe
Speaker 4: two things are true. I believe people are inherently good,
Speaker 4: and it has really been a challenge for me to
Speaker 4: lean into that belief in the last couple of weeks,
Speaker 4: in the outcome of the election, in seeing in the
Speaker 4: path and the direction that the world is going. But
Speaker 4: I do truly believe that people are in good, that
Speaker 4: they want to do good. And then I also secondly
Speaker 4: believe that people are capable of change, and that when
Speaker 4: you know better, you can do better. And when you
Speaker 4: meet somebody with an identity that you don't have and
Speaker 4: talk to them like a human, you know we can
Speaker 4: create change in this world. And those are the two
Speaker 4: things that I have to believe in every single day
Speaker 4: to be able to show up and do the work
Speaker 4: that I do.
Speaker 2: That's really smart too, because that is true. We know
Speaker 2: that it's true.
Speaker 1: We know that when people come into contact with trans people,
Speaker 1: gay people, immigrants, people of a different color, people of
Speaker 1: a different religion, and they're forced to actually interact with them,
Speaker 1: they tend to change their minds. There's so many really
Speaker 1: high profile public examples of that, and unfortunately, we are
Speaker 1: finding ourselves tribalized in ways that allows for fear mongering
Speaker 1: to create what feels like bad people, and more often
Speaker 1: than not, you're probably right. They're misinformed, they're scared, they're
Speaker 1: worried about their own interest, and it results in what
Speaker 1: feels like very hateful voting, very hateful policy, Which is
Speaker 1: why you're here, because it feels like in the last
Speaker 1: couple of years, the around trans people, both in life
Speaker 1: and in sport, has become so bifurcated in the sense
Speaker 1: of like you either think everyone's in one extreme or
Speaker 1: the other. Either they're hateful and awful and they think
Speaker 1: trans people shouldn't exist, or on the other side, they
Speaker 1: want trans participation in sport regardless of policy or equality
Speaker 1: or fairness. And there's actually so much middle ground to
Speaker 1: talk about if you're willing to have a conversation, and
Speaker 1: so I want to start there. How do you think
Speaker 1: we got here where it feels so black and white.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Well, the truth is sports is incredibly polarizing for
Speaker 4: a lot of people, and for folks who don't even
Speaker 4: play sports, who have literally no skin in the game here.
Speaker 4: They have an opinion about sports. They have an opinion
Speaker 4: about fairness, they have an opinion about level of play,
Speaker 4: about competitive nature, and they have a set of beliefs
Speaker 4: that they believe are right and wrong for the rules
Speaker 4: of sport. The truth is, sport is a very binary system.
Speaker 4: You know, like sport didn't create the gender binary, it
Speaker 4: lives within it. And that complicates this conversation a little
Speaker 4: bit more. But I believe that sports became the entry
Speaker 4: point for the attacks on trans people. And I've been
Speaker 4: saying this for the last decade now. You know, twenty fifteen,
Speaker 4: twenty sixteen, we started to see bathroom bands pop up
Speaker 4: around the country, and famously North Carolina pushed back on
Speaker 4: HB two, and we actually saw a lot of the
Speaker 4: sports world get involved in that fight at that time.
Speaker 4: And you know, it's a good question what happened between
Speaker 4: twenty sixteen where there was all of this outrage about
Speaker 4: bathroom bands and about attacks on trans people's autonomy and
Speaker 4: ability to exist in public spaces. And twenty twenty when
Speaker 4: we saw our first anti transports ban go into effect
Speaker 4: right before COVID hit. You know, I think that that
Speaker 4: sport is just a real opportunity for people to dip
Speaker 4: their foot in. And when we started to see the
Speaker 4: bands on sports get passed, it was very soon after
Speaker 4: that every single one of those states started to attack
Speaker 4: trans people in a different way. So whether it was
Speaker 4: about medical care, or it was about school pronouns and
Speaker 4: forced outing in elementary schools, or library books or drag queens,
Speaker 4: you know, we started to see these attacks from all angles,
Speaker 4: and sport really was just the entry point to those attacks,
Speaker 4: because I really don't believe it's about sports, and I
Speaker 4: really don't believe it's even about health care or about
Speaker 4: library books. It's about trying to make it so that
Speaker 4: trans kids don't grow up to be trans adults, and
Speaker 4: that trans adults have such a horrible time here that
Speaker 4: they can't live safe, open, healthy and happy lives out
Speaker 4: in public.
Speaker 2: And so this is much.
Speaker 4: Bigger than sports. Sports was just the easy access point
Speaker 4: because everybody has an opinion about it.
Speaker 1: An opinion, and because it is, to your point, alongside bathrooms,
Speaker 1: one of the few places where we are very firm
Speaker 1: in our decision making around the binary of gender. In
Speaker 1: almost any other space in life, there are you know,
Speaker 1: you could walk into any department of the store and
Speaker 1: you can buy a whole bunch of men's clothes if
Speaker 1: that's what you want, or women's.
Speaker 2: Clothes or whatever. They're not actually going to stop you wear.
Speaker 1: Sports and bathrooms are the place where you're supposed to
Speaker 1: be limited, and it allows people, to your point, to
Speaker 1: come in under the guise of caring about women's in girls' sport.
Speaker 1: And then once you've turned people against trans people and
Speaker 1: demonized them in a specific way, you can then start
Speaker 1: pushing for their autonomy and rights to be affected in
Speaker 1: ways that previously people would not even consider voting for
Speaker 1: or doing. But now that you've made them evil, you
Speaker 1: can now try to take away their right to exist.
Speaker 1: You know, you opened up about your identity, about the
Speaker 1: gender you identify as in what you wanted to play,
Speaker 1: as you advocated for policy change years ago, well before
Speaker 1: this issue was mainstream. Why or as a result of
Speaker 1: what do you attribute your ability to do that so
Speaker 1: early in a space that was so unwelcoming.
Speaker 4: Well, a couple of reasons. The first is that I'm
Speaker 4: a trans man, and so I navigate the world already
Speaker 4: with inherited privilege of being perceived as a straight white dude,
Speaker 4: and so I transition from being, you know, a masculine
Speaker 4: presenting quote unquote woman who never felt like a woman,
Speaker 4: and to being perceived as a straight white guy, and
Speaker 4: that did provide me a lot of privilege to navigate
Speaker 4: spaces without issue. I think the second part of that
Speaker 4: in the sports context is that because I was assigned
Speaker 4: female at birth, people didn't think that I'd be competitive
Speaker 4: with men and therefore kind of gave me a shoulder
Speaker 4: shrug and go ahead and participate. We're not worried about
Speaker 4: you in terms of being competitive, And even when I
Speaker 4: have had athletic success, which I have been fortunate enough
Speaker 4: to have in the men's category, it's still got to
Speaker 4: get a shrug. And there are multiple reasons given from
Speaker 4: any troll on the internet about why it's not legit
Speaker 4: or it's not really worth paying attention to. On the
Speaker 4: flip side of that, any trans woman who just wants
Speaker 4: to participate in a sport, even in a recreational five
Speaker 4: k in their local town is facing pushback because of
Speaker 4: the myths and misinformation that have circulated. So I was
Speaker 4: able to create change early on because there was a
Speaker 4: lack of information out there, because we didn't have this
Speaker 4: full scale fear mongering campaign that exists right now trying
Speaker 4: to make people believe certain things about the trans community.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I remember it was probably a decade ago that
Speaker 1: you were at the espnW summit in California, pool Side,
Speaker 1: giving a lecture about policy at different levels and really
Speaker 1: just using information that existed to help people understand an
Speaker 1: issue that was relatively new. There was a survey one year,
Speaker 1: probably around the same time, maybe just after that, because
Speaker 1: usually that's around October at the end of the year,
Speaker 1: asking us, some members of ESPN to fill out some
Speaker 1: general ideas about stories we'd like to do or things
Speaker 1: we'd like to see, And one of them was what
Speaker 1: do you think is a big issue in sports that
Speaker 1: needs to be tackled that's coming up? And I wrote
Speaker 1: trans inclusion, trans participation, Like we need to get out
Speaker 1: ahead of this and start using information because I watched
Speaker 1: the way your presentation changed the minds of people who
Speaker 1: were either afraid or unsure or just didn't know. And
Speaker 1: I think that's part of the problem here, is people
Speaker 1: are motivated by a lack of knowledge, but not all
Speaker 1: of them are seeking it right. So I wonder what
Speaker 1: you think the main motivating factor is for those who
Speaker 1: are not involved in women's sports. They aren't addressing lack
Speaker 1: of resources, toxic and abusive coaches, sexual assault and harassment,
Speaker 1: under investment, unequal opportunity, Title nine violations, the many, many,
Speaker 1: many things that we could be addressing when it comes
Speaker 1: to inequality and lack of fairness for women and girls
Speaker 1: in sport. They're not doing any of that, but they
Speaker 1: are spending their time advocating against trans participation.
Speaker 2: What do you think the main motivating factor for those
Speaker 2: people is?
Speaker 4: It's absolutely political. I mean, I wish that there was
Speaker 4: another way I could say it, but the GOP spent
Speaker 4: over two hundred and fifteen million dollars in this campaign
Speaker 4: presidential election campaign on ads that were against the trans community.
Speaker 4: Trump Advance spent over twenty million dollars on this topic alone.
Speaker 4: And if you think about the number of trans people
Speaker 4: that are actually participating in sports, you know, it's an
Speaker 4: outrageous number to put on any topic, but particularly one
Speaker 4: that is, so, you know, not an issue. We've said
Speaker 4: for years, this is a solution in search of a problem,
Speaker 4: and what we've seen is actually that the folks who
Speaker 4: don't want trans people to exist. And I say it
Speaker 4: like that because a lot of these sports organizations that
Speaker 4: are trying to get trans people to not be able
Speaker 4: to participate in sports, and particularly in women's sports. The
Speaker 4: other tenets of those organizations are to keep transwomen in
Speaker 4: men's prisons and to make sure that trans people can't
Speaker 4: change their gender marker on their IDs. So again, this
Speaker 4: is not about sports.
Speaker 1: This is about.
Speaker 4: Overarching transphobia, misogyny, sexism that exists in the world and
Speaker 4: targeting the trans community in different ways, and so sports
Speaker 4: is just one of the ways, but obviously a very
Speaker 4: successful way. We've seen that right wing media has more
Speaker 4: clicks and hits on pieces about trans athletes than any
Speaker 4: other piece about the trans community or LGBTQ people at large,
Speaker 4: and so this is a hot button topic that they
Speaker 4: know will get them the clicks, the likes, the views,
Speaker 4: the shares, and therefore that INCENTI devises more content about it.
Speaker 4: But also we're seeing that this content is very one sided.
Speaker 4: So in most of the articles that come out, they
Speaker 4: never speak to a trans athlete or to even an
Speaker 4: LGBTQ plus organization that supports the trans community, and so
Speaker 4: we're seeing a lot of propaganda pieces. And when that's
Speaker 4: the information that's out there, when ninety percent of the
Speaker 4: articles are saying that trans people are monsters, that there
Speaker 4: are a threatened sports, it doesn't matter that there are
Speaker 4: zero professional transomen athletes right now in the United States.
Speaker 4: What we're seeing is that, you know, trans athletes are
Speaker 4: the problem with women's sports, and this dynamic has been
Speaker 4: set up so that people without the information, like you said,
Speaker 4: or aren't seeking out the information, believe this to be true,
Speaker 4: and then for really solid opinions on it, that they
Speaker 4: will plant their flag in the ground and not be
Speaker 4: willing to get new information.
Speaker 1: And I think that's what's so frustrating is I'm open
Speaker 1: to having these conversations. I want to talk to people
Speaker 1: about policy at different levels and the best way to
Speaker 1: handle things and how to make sure it is fair
Speaker 1: and equitable and safe. But so often it comes at
Speaker 1: the price of having a conversation with someone who will
Speaker 1: not use someone's correct pronouns and name, who refuses to
Speaker 1: acknowledge their identity. And if you can't, at least start
Speaker 1: by acknowledging and respecting somebody before the conversation begins. I
Speaker 1: don't believe that you're someone who wants to learn and change,
Speaker 1: and that makes it really difficult. Have you been asked
Speaker 1: to have those kind of conversations with quote unquote the
Speaker 1: opposite side and what's your take on being able to
Speaker 1: actually change minds through those kind of debates?
Speaker 4: Yeah? I have. I would say there was a period
Speaker 4: of time where it was more than one a week,
Speaker 4: but about once a week I get a request from
Speaker 4: a TV show, a podcast, radio show, whatever to have
Speaker 4: a debate quote unquote debate, right, so, to talk about
Speaker 4: both sides of the issue, And when it's really framed
Speaker 4: up as a debate, I'm not willing to go onto
Speaker 4: any show and debate my humanity because that's really what
Speaker 4: is happening here. To your point, For me to sit
Speaker 4: with somebody who refuses to use appropriate names and pronouns
Speaker 4: of trans people, what that shows me is that those
Speaker 4: people don't believe that trans people exist. Right. If you're
Speaker 4: just fundamentally unwilling to call a trans woman a woman
Speaker 4: who is of trans experience to continually misgender her and
Speaker 4: say that she's a biological man or whatever. We've seen
Speaker 4: that those those words, that language weaponized against our community,
Speaker 4: and I just I won't do it. I don't think
Speaker 4: it's helpful for me to sit and debate. I don't
Speaker 4: think it's helpful for my mental health, first and foremost.
Speaker 4: But I don't think it's going to change hearts and
Speaker 4: minds because if the goal in those in those episodes
Speaker 4: is to win, right, no one's going to be open
Speaker 4: to learn about my experience or what the trans community
Speaker 4: is actually facing. So I think there are different ways
Speaker 4: to create change, and I do believe that there is
Speaker 4: a movable middle. Right. There are people who just don't
Speaker 4: have the information or who have heard a certain thing
Speaker 4: and are curious to learn more, and just I don't
Speaker 4: know a respected source to go to. And I think
Speaker 4: that I can talk to those people and you know,
Speaker 4: and share my experience and share the experiences of my
Speaker 4: community in a way that's not shoving it down their
Speaker 4: throat or trying to get them to change. But I
Speaker 4: believe if they're open to change, they can at least
Speaker 4: hear my side, right, Because I'm not here to force
Speaker 4: change upon anybody. I truly believe if you hear the
Speaker 4: facts and the information, it would make you scratch your
Speaker 4: head and go, I wonder why this is such a
Speaker 4: hot button issue right now? Why are we spending so
Speaker 4: much money and so much time on this topic right now?
Speaker 4: And so you know, I'm willing to have those conversations,
Speaker 4: but not to put myself in the line of fire,
Speaker 4: because that doesn't make anybody change their minds, and it
Speaker 4: doesn't make anybody happy either in terms of my community,
Speaker 4: in terms of other folks. It just creates more polarization, right.
Speaker 1: I think, to your point, like if the goal is
Speaker 1: to win a debate, there's way too much nuance in
Speaker 1: this conversation. To your point, we're trying to operate in
Speaker 1: a binary system of sports. When we understand that hu
Speaker 1: are not binary. There is this spectrum. We are not
Speaker 1: operating with the scientific belief anymore that you're male or
Speaker 1: female and there's nothing else. There's so much more, and
Speaker 1: trying to shove that into a binary system is why
Speaker 1: we're having so much difficulty. It doesn't mean there aren't
Speaker 1: solutions that can be found, or elections and intentions that
Speaker 1: can be met, but you have to be willing to
Speaker 1: speak with nuance, and a lot of times those debates
Speaker 1: are not what do you say to folks who are
Speaker 1: genuinely concerned about how trans inclusion might affect fairness or
Speaker 1: safety in girls and women's sports.
Speaker 4: I think it's amazing that people are concerned about that.
Speaker 4: I think that's a starting point, like, let's start there
Speaker 4: that I'm glad that people have the interest in women's
Speaker 4: sports to want to ensure fair and safe competition, and
Speaker 4: also we can have fair and safe competition and be
Speaker 4: inclusive at the same time. And I have a number
Speaker 4: of instances and studies that I can share with people
Speaker 4: about that. But I think more than giving them scientific
Speaker 4: data or a journal article to read, the lived experience,
Speaker 4: sharing the lived experience. It's that I have that my
Speaker 4: friends who are trans women have connecting people, you know,
Speaker 4: to folks to hear their information, or even connecting them
Speaker 4: to something like Changing the Game, a documentary on Hulu
Speaker 4: that I was the executive producer for that actually follows
Speaker 4: trans athletes and shares their experiences from their own moths. Right,
Speaker 4: that's the exposure that people need to have to this
Speaker 4: topic to begin to start to question why we're talking
Speaker 4: about it so much, and also some of the things
Speaker 4: that they've heard, like you know, lawmakers are saying that
Speaker 4: this is a huge problem, and yet like how many
Speaker 4: trans athletes are out there actually competing? How many could
Speaker 4: you name? How many do you know of from the
Speaker 4: news articles? And all of those articles are negative, So
Speaker 4: it kind of makes you think, like, why are we
Speaker 4: focusing on this so much?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you're right.
Speaker 1: We start with human beings and their individual stories changing
Speaker 1: the game is a great one. Pablo Tory's excellent episode
Speaker 1: about these single trans girl who an entire state created
Speaker 1: a law for so she couldn't sit on the bench
Speaker 1: of a softball team. It is a true story, but
Speaker 1: with the human beings, so that when we say air
Speaker 1: on the side of inclusion and also understand that there's
Speaker 1: policy at every single different level to make sure that
Speaker 1: there's fairness, you start from a place of humanity and
Speaker 1: then you go to the science that backs all of that.
Speaker 1: Soon you've been following the San Jose State volleyball story.
Speaker 1: Just to recap for everybody, Captain Brooks luster on that
Speaker 1: team joined a lawsuit against the NCAA stating that a
Speaker 1: teammate is transgender and poses a safety risk to her
Speaker 1: teammates and competitors across the conference. Then was part of
Speaker 1: a failed motion against the Mountain West that would have
Speaker 1: rendered that player ineligible and removed wins from the team.
Speaker 1: The team has gotten a lot of wins this season
Speaker 1: as a result of forfeits, people not wanting to play
Speaker 1: against them once she tried to out her teammate as transgender.
Speaker 1: There's so much there, but I just wonder what what
Speaker 1: has stood out to you from that situation beyond the obvious,
Speaker 1: which is a teammate and then later an assistant coach
Speaker 1: filing a lawsuit against their own team trying to take
Speaker 1: away wins, and the fact that the player has been
Speaker 1: on the team for three years without incident.
Speaker 4: I mean there's number one, right US teams and schools
Speaker 4: have been playing against this player and this team for
Speaker 4: years and didn't have a problem in the past, and
Speaker 4: then this information comes out and suddenly she's a threat
Speaker 4: and it's a problem, And that, you know, is the
Speaker 4: first thing that should help people scratch their heads and go,
Speaker 4: I wonder what's going on here? You know. The second
Speaker 4: thing is, like, Sarah, I know you are a team
Speaker 4: sport person. Could you imagine this happening on a team,
Speaker 4: and just the fact that they continue to play together,
Speaker 4: you know, I think it really speaks to that accused
Speaker 4: athlete and her sense of self and her motivation to
Speaker 4: continue to play the sport that she loves. Just what
Speaker 4: a horrendous situation that I think is just in terms
Speaker 4: of timing, because we've just come off the election and
Speaker 4: all of this anti trans rhetoric. It's just really ramping
Speaker 4: things up. And I think the most disappointing part of
Speaker 4: this is that just much in the way as young
Speaker 4: people a couple of years ago we kind of laughed
Speaker 4: about them being social media influencers as a full time job,
Speaker 4: it is now a full time job, a lucrative one
Speaker 4: at that, to be anti trans as a young cis
Speaker 4: white girl on some of these teams, and it's like
Speaker 4: we're watching this recruiting pattern happen of organizations like targeting
Speaker 4: teams and trying to get them to make public statements,
Speaker 4: to wear stupid T shirts on stage at political rallies,
Speaker 4: and to speak out when you know, it's just so
Speaker 4: disappointing because to your point at the top of the show,
Speaker 4: there are so many issues that lawmakers and policymakers and
Speaker 4: people interested in preserving and helping women's sports could be
Speaker 4: focusing on like high rates of sexual assault and misconduct,
Speaker 4: lack of title mind compliance, you know, lack of opportunities
Speaker 4: at professional level, money, media attention, on and on and on. Right,
Speaker 4: And if you were truly interested in elevating the sport,
Speaker 4: elevating status of women in sports, we'd be focusing on
Speaker 4: those things instead of trying to make a career off
Speaker 4: of hating trans people.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think yeah.
Speaker 1: The fact that there were no issues and she was
Speaker 1: just a volleyball player on a team for years until
Speaker 1: you decided to take a clip, go on the internet,
Speaker 1: make it feel viral, say untrue things about her size
Speaker 1: or speed or ability, etc.
Speaker 2: In order to stir people up.
Speaker 1: Is the biggest microcosm macrocosm of the entire thing is
Speaker 1: this was not an issue, and you made it one,
Speaker 1: and now you're going to try to profit off that.
Speaker 1: And it's really frustrating and frustrating for the player, but
Speaker 1: also the whole team. The number of games they didn't
Speaker 1: get to play, their college experience completely spoiled by someone
Speaker 1: who made it about herself while pretending it was about
Speaker 1: someone else, you know. Anti trans writeric has also started
Speaker 1: to affect CIS women athletes, including some high profile recent cases.
Speaker 2: We saw in the Olympics boxer Amani Khaliff.
Speaker 1: We saw Whorlando Pride and Zambia national player Barbara Banda
Speaker 1: was named BBC Footballer of the Year.
Speaker 2: This high profile award, this great.
Speaker 1: Honor, and it draws the attention of anti trans folks
Speaker 1: like JK Rowling, who has a big following and accuses
Speaker 1: Banda of being quote unquote a man and quote unquote
Speaker 1: cheating other female athletes of the prize. You know, some
Speaker 1: details for context from a story in The Athletic. This
Speaker 1: claim stems from reports a couple of years ago that
Speaker 1: the Zambian Football Federation withdrew Barbara Banda from its squad
Speaker 1: for the Women's Africa Cup of Nations in Morocco for
Speaker 1: quote unquote medical reasons, amid reports of a gender verification test.
Speaker 1: Now FIFA and the Confederation of African Football confirmed she
Speaker 1: wasn't disqualified from any participation. The Orlando Pride and says
Speaker 1: there's never been a gender verification test done. And then
Speaker 1: Barbara represented Zambia at the World Cup in twenty twenty three,
Speaker 1: represented Zambia in the Olympics in Paris, has played for
Speaker 1: the NWSL with no issues and crucially it has only
Speaker 1: been under CAAF's jurisdiction that there have been problems before.
Speaker 2: Now there's questions, just.
Speaker 1: Like with the Mani Khalif, about the federation that decides
Speaker 1: and rules against athletes. And Barbara is eligible for the
Speaker 1: next edition of AFCHAN held in Morocco in twenty twenty five.
Speaker 1: So we get one report, or we get one question,
Speaker 1: or we get one federation or overseeing board that claims
Speaker 1: something about an athlete, and DSD athletes and and anything else,
Speaker 1: they all get grouped in because of these attacks on
Speaker 1: trans athletes. What do you make of athletes like Khalif
Speaker 1: and band who are attacked and questioned as part of
Speaker 1: this larger attack on trans athletes.
Speaker 4: Well, we have to recognize and understand that this is
Speaker 4: an intersectional attack, that this is deeply rooted in racism
Speaker 4: and people's ideas of a certain type of white Eurocentric
Speaker 4: femininity that is expected to be upheld by the patriarchy.
Speaker 4: And so that is the first point that I think
Speaker 4: you know that flags for me is that we often
Speaker 4: see that women of color and particularly women from the
Speaker 4: Global South are targeted in these attacks on gender policing
Speaker 4: at higher rates. And we even saw it. I mean
Speaker 4: as far back as two Olympics ago, Serena Williams, Venus Williams,
Speaker 4: even Michelle Obama has been victim of these sort of
Speaker 4: like gender call outs online and it's deeply rooted in
Speaker 4: racist rhetoric. The second thing is that we're seeing these
Speaker 4: attacks in on SIS women and it should call into
Speaker 4: question for everyone that if you don't present in a
Speaker 4: certain way, you are at risk here right. I know
Speaker 4: that in our past conversations we've talked about the ways
Speaker 4: in which you've been gender policed in the restroom. I
Speaker 4: specifically remember before I transitioned, when people assumed me to
Speaker 4: be a woman, before anyone knew I was trans being
Speaker 4: pulled out of a restroom at my workplace because another
Speaker 4: woman in the restroom in the women's room said that
Speaker 4: I didn't belong there, And I mean, it was incredibly humiliating.
Speaker 4: You know, I can't even begin to express how traumatizing
Speaker 4: that was in the workplace. I only use gender neutral
Speaker 4: restrooms for the remainder of my time working there after
Speaker 4: that to have security come in where you work and
Speaker 4: pull you out. You know, it was humiliating, and we're
Speaker 4: hearing more cases of that happening because when we call
Speaker 4: into question online without any legitimate concern or facts, right like,
Speaker 4: this is just something that JK. Rowling put out online
Speaker 4: right with the following base that she has, it just
Speaker 4: spreads and then that becomes truth. And then that person, right,
Speaker 4: a money Cliff or anybody who's attacked like that, needs
Speaker 4: to then defend the fact that you're a woman, right
Speaker 4: like it. It doesn't make sense and h get in
Speaker 4: front of.
Speaker 1: Right based on historical precedent, violating you know, non medical
Speaker 1: procedures from non medical people, expectations of taking drugs to
Speaker 1: affect your natural bodily makeup in pursuit of an artificial
Speaker 1: standard that is different across every single board, every single competition,
Speaker 1: every single country, ultimately with the desire to try to
Speaker 1: put a cap on what we believe makes you a woman,
Speaker 1: and there is no cap on being a man. You
Speaker 1: could be as strong and as big and as great
Speaker 1: and as wonderful, and every time someone does something bigger
Speaker 1: and better and faster, he's a marvel. But when women
Speaker 1: get better stronger, faster, bigger, they become men and we
Speaker 1: have to demonize them. So to your point, it is
Speaker 1: entirely rooted, not just in racism, but deeply held misogyny. Yeah.
Speaker 4: And I think you know, that really calls into the
Speaker 4: conversation about restrooms that we're seeing now, because our restroom
Speaker 4: conversations are very closely related to locker rooms and sports.
Speaker 4: And this is what people are missing in this giant
Speaker 4: conversation is that when people are trying to ban trans
Speaker 4: women from women's locker rooms or trans women from women's bathrooms, right,
Speaker 4: what they want to do is put everybody in according
Speaker 4: to their assignment at birth, right their original birth certificate,
Speaker 4: which puts me and my incredible fancy mustache in a
Speaker 4: women's restroom, right. And I think that people don't understand
Speaker 4: and people don't think about that that while people are
Speaker 4: creating this, you know, this monster of a person that
Speaker 4: they're saying that trans women are and that people should
Speaker 4: be afraid, how do you think it's going to end
Speaker 4: when I follow Nancy Mace into the women's bathroom of
Speaker 4: the Capitol, right, I don't think it's going to be
Speaker 4: a safer situation for anyone. And a lot of the
Speaker 4: targeting of trans people has been so deeply focused on
Speaker 4: trans women, and I think it's because people are afraid
Speaker 4: of cis men, and this is the issue. So if
Speaker 4: you are truly afraid of a man coming into a
Speaker 4: women's space and assaulting women, what you are afraid of
Speaker 4: is cisgender men, not the trans community. And that has
Speaker 4: been something that's been overlooked. We have lawmakers who are
Speaker 4: being put onto the cabinet and voted into office who
Speaker 4: are known offenders, and yet we're using this as a
Speaker 4: distraction from the real issues.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, And to your point about the bathrooms and who
Speaker 1: gets to go where and how they're presenting. The scary thing,
Speaker 1: not just for trans folks, but for all women and girls,
Speaker 1: is what that will mean for how they expect you
Speaker 1: to present in order to not be subject to their criticism.
Speaker 2: And you know you mentioned I don't even look like
Speaker 2: a dude.
Speaker 1: I just am very tall, and I wear a baseball
Speaker 1: cap a lot and don't try hard to like look
Speaker 1: cute all the time. So when people don't look hard,
Speaker 1: they'll look up and be like, yes, sir, what do
Speaker 1: you want to my god?
Speaker 2: So it's fine, I'm a lady.
Speaker 1: But imagine being if I were a young athlete, and
Speaker 1: when I was a young athlete, if they had said
Speaker 1: you're too fast or too tall, you're too strong, you're
Speaker 1: probably a boy.
Speaker 2: What that would have.
Speaker 1: Done to me as someone who was already so insecure
Speaker 1: about being taller than all the boys growing up and
Speaker 1: being you know, very physical and very good at sports.
Speaker 1: I got so much confidence from that. But also outside
Speaker 1: of sports, it was a lot to carry around as
Speaker 1: a little girl. If I was actively being accused by parents,
Speaker 1: which I can almost guarantee if I were an athlete
Speaker 1: right now in this day and age doing what I
Speaker 1: used to do, they would someone would just be pissed
Speaker 1: that I was good and try to say.
Speaker 2: Something about it.
Speaker 1: And that's what we're demanding, is for every single girl
Speaker 1: and woman who walks into a bathroom to be allowed
Speaker 1: to have people say I don't think this one's for you, regardless, regardless,
Speaker 1: And that's bad for trans people, it's bad for everybody.
Speaker 1: And to your point, it really is just rooted in
Speaker 1: a desire to turn away warranted fear and anger at
Speaker 1: men toward women.
Speaker 2: Yet again, yes, what can we do to help?
Speaker 1: What can we do if we on the sports side
Speaker 1: and in life side that want fairness, want inclusion, want
Speaker 1: everyone to feel like we're coming to good decision making
Speaker 1: on this and it's not just pick a side and
Speaker 1: stick to it regardless effect.
Speaker 2: What can we do to help?
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, the first thing would be get more
Speaker 4: information and so you know, at a bare minimum, folks
Speaker 4: can follow me online at the Chris Mosure on any
Speaker 4: platform and I'm sharing information about my experience and about
Speaker 4: the trans community, you know, just with everybody. And I
Speaker 4: can also direct folks to other places to look for information.
Speaker 4: But having updated information and information from a good source
Speaker 4: is important. That goes to the second thing is check
Speaker 4: your sources. If you read an article and it has
Speaker 4: an incredible anti translant, look at the outlet that is
Speaker 4: coming from, Look at the author that it's coming from.
Speaker 4: See if there are LGBTQ plus or trans voices in article.
Speaker 4: Look for that balance because if you are reading a
Speaker 4: one sided article that's an opinion piece, that is not news,
Speaker 4: that is propaganda. And so it's important to check your sources.
Speaker 4: And then, you know, I think the third thing is
Speaker 4: that we can really at this time use our cisgender
Speaker 4: allies to speak up, and that could be something as
Speaker 4: small as accompanying your transfriend into the bathroom right now
Speaker 4: to help us with safety, always intervening when when transphobic
Speaker 4: comments are being made, and like stopping the conversation, not
Speaker 4: letting those comments pass, not letting transphobia become normalized, which
Speaker 4: it has been, and really using this opportunity to use
Speaker 4: your privilege to call out things, particularly in sports. You know,
Speaker 4: call out the things that would improve women's sports. What
Speaker 4: are the real issues that you're facing as a CIS
Speaker 4: woman athlete, what would make your life better? And you know,
Speaker 4: I'm going to guess that the top five things that
Speaker 4: you're going to mention is not banning the non existent
Speaker 4: trans athlete from your team. It's going to be something
Speaker 4: that's actually going to move the needle for women's sports.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I have said on a previous show that I do
Speaker 1: think one of the simplest and easiest things to do
Speaker 1: is just to follow trans people on your social media.
Speaker 1: Have it be a part of your everyday scrolling and
Speaker 1: timeline to see not just the stories about them in sport,
Speaker 1: but what are they doing with their lives and how
Speaker 1: are they human beings? And just like the rest of us, Right, So,
Speaker 1: can you give us a couple more folks that maybe
Speaker 1: would be good follows that you enjoy following, whether in
Speaker 1: sports or otherwise.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so I would follow Chase Strangio. He is an
Speaker 4: ACLU attorney who's about to be the first trans attorney
Speaker 4: at the Supreme Court. On the screen any case this week.
Speaker 4: I would follow athlete Ally is a great organization that
Speaker 4: posts information about our community. C C. Telfer is another
Speaker 4: great one, and you can actually go to my Instagram
Speaker 4: and I have a list of athletes that you can
Speaker 4: follow as well.
Speaker 2: Perfect we will put it in the show notes for
Speaker 2: people to follow.
Speaker 1: I just feel like if your feed is all people
Speaker 1: who look just like you and have the same lived experiences,
Speaker 1: a great way to just start to expand your mind
Speaker 1: and open up your perspective is to just follow a
Speaker 1: whole bunch of people that are very different from you
Speaker 1: and then see how similar you are, and then also
Speaker 1: learn from the ways you're different. Chris, You're just the
Speaker 1: fucking best. You're always the best, And I'm so grateful
Speaker 1: that you came on to talk to us, and please
Speaker 1: reach out if you think of more ways that we
Speaker 1: can help, we're happy to share them on the show,
Speaker 1: and I'm happy to share them with people that I
Speaker 1: know to make sure that you all feel supported and safe.
Speaker 1: And I think you're one of the people posting about
Speaker 1: the need to get passports and other identification done as
Speaker 1: soon as possible, right, So let's let that as the
Speaker 1: last message. I'm sure most people already know that, but
Speaker 1: just in case, what's that last message there?
Speaker 4: Yeah, So we have a limited number of weeks before
Speaker 4: the inauguration, and in that period of time, it's really
Speaker 4: important for trends and non binary people to secure their
Speaker 4: documents and so making sure that they have IDs and
Speaker 4: passports and any other documentation that aligns with their identity
Speaker 4: prior to the new administration coming in, because it is
Speaker 4: so incredibly difficult to travel this country with an idea
Speaker 4: that doesn't match who you are, or to register for
Speaker 4: your sports league or navigate the world. And so there's
Speaker 4: information on my page right now on my Instagram also
Speaker 4: pinned post of how folks can do that, and also
Speaker 4: for allies to be able to donate so that we
Speaker 4: can help offset some of the costs for trans people
Speaker 4: to do this in that set amount of time.
Speaker 1: Yeah, expedited all that stuff awesome. Thanks Chris, We.
Speaker 4: Love you, love you too, Thank you so much.
Speaker 1: Got to go pay some bills when we come back.
Speaker 1: We share some Slice celebrations, some slicelebrations, some celebrices.
Speaker 2: Just stick with Slice celebrations. Welcome back Slices.
Speaker 1: Last week we celebrated our episode one hundred, and we
Speaker 1: asked you all to share something you're celebrating. We love
Speaker 1: this answer from certified Slice Pamela Mudway. She wrote, in
Speaker 1: part quote, my biggest accomplishment this past year was that
Speaker 1: I am now able to exclusive listen to podcasts not
Speaker 1: only about women's sports, but hosted by women who know
Speaker 1: their shit. So thanks to Good Game, The Women's Game,
Speaker 1: the Late sub the Recap Show, and Laughter Permitted for
Speaker 1: providing this longtime female athlete and fan her fill of
Speaker 1: women's sports each week. Good Game, women's podcasters, Good Game
Speaker 1: women listeners. Few men who still think you own the
Speaker 1: space end quote. Such a great list of podcasts. We
Speaker 1: love those shows, we love women who know their shit,
Speaker 1: and we love men and women who listen to this pod.
Speaker 2: In all other pots about women's.
Speaker 1: Sports, Slice Aaron Raw also wrote in she said her
Speaker 1: three girls are kicking ass. In particular, the little one,
Speaker 1: Wren set six prs in nine races at her biggest
Speaker 1: swim meet. Her oldest Alex was accepted to her top
Speaker 1: college choice and earned half tuition paid, and she might
Speaker 1: still learn some more scholarships too.
Speaker 2: We love that, right, mom, Congrats to the fam.
Speaker 1: Finally, a different kind of celebrating from Slice Elizabeth Oakie.
Speaker 1: She writes, quote, a milestone my friends and I are
Speaker 1: working towards is saying no or opting out of plans.
Speaker 1: It's easy to say yes, but we're rewarding ourselves if
Speaker 1: we say no. We even made a punch cart. Whoever
Speaker 1: achieves this gets an ice cream. Silly but fun end quote. Hilarious,
Speaker 1: And it's such a funny fact about humans that some
Speaker 1: of us have to work hard to say no guilty,
Speaker 1: and others of us would be well served to say
Speaker 1: yes more often and put ourselves out in the world
Speaker 1: with friends and strangers and just get out there more So,
Speaker 1: humans are funny. Thanks for letting us celebrate with the slices.
Speaker 1: And you know, we always love that you're listening. But
Speaker 1: we want you to get in the game every day too,
Speaker 1: So here's our good game play of the day. We
Speaker 1: know that The holidays can be tough for some people,
Speaker 1: but for a lot of us, it's a chance to
Speaker 1: be with family, blood or chosen, to search for the
Speaker 1: perfect gifts, to plan and attend parties, give time to
Speaker 1: local charities and causes, and just you know, really soak
Speaker 1: up the love and all the support.
Speaker 2: Of our communities. So we want to know if you
Speaker 2: have a great.
Speaker 1: Holiday tradition to share, maybe something that other slices would
Speaker 1: want to adopt. I've got a few to share it,
Speaker 1: but I want to hear yours because I might.
Speaker 2: Just steal some.
Speaker 1: If you guys have some creative or fun or meaningful
Speaker 1: annual events or practices, I want to hear about them.
Speaker 1: I might steal them. Send them to me at Spain
Speaker 1: two three two three on Twitter, slash x at Sarahspain
Speaker 1: dot com on Blue Sky, or at Spain two three
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Speaker 1: up on email, good game at Wondermedia network dot com,
Speaker 1: or leave us a voicemail at eight seven two two
Speaker 1: O four fifty seventy, and don't forget to subscribe or
Speaker 1: rate and review.
Speaker 2: It's easy.
Speaker 1: Watch a little party on your fingernails. Rating five out
Speaker 1: of five treat yourselves review man Do I love a
Speaker 1: holiday manicure?
Speaker 2: A delicious espresso.
Speaker 1: Martini tastes even better when it's picked up by a
Speaker 1: hand dotted with glittery goold nails. Wrapping presents is more
Speaker 1: fun with tiny little trees on every finger. Even biting
Speaker 1: off a glove to open up a poop bag and
Speaker 1: pick up my dog's turds is a little less terrible
Speaker 1: when a bright red manny pops out long live quote
Speaker 1: unquote self care. See easy you do it, Subscribe, rate
Speaker 1: and review. Thanks for listening. We'll see you tomorrow. Good Game, Chris,
Speaker 1: Good Game Learning how to say no h you? Jk
Speaker 1: Rowling like for Real, for Real. Good Game with Sarah
Speaker 1: Spain is an iHeart women's sports production in partnership with
Speaker 1: Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. You can find us on
Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1: Production by Wonder Media Network, our producers are Alex Azzie
Speaker 1: and Misha Jones. Our executive producers are Christina Everett, Jesse Katz,
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Speaker 1: Lucy Jones and I'm Your Host Sarah Spain.