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Speaker 1: Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain, where we're already

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Speaker 1: knee deep in hot nuts and Christmas cookies and the

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Speaker 1: real holiday party stretch hasn't even begun. It's Thursday, December twelfth,

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Speaker 1: and today Team USA athlete and founder of transathlete dot

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Speaker 1: com Chris Moser joins the show. We talk about how

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Speaker 1: he's staying positive and hopeful post election, the motivation behind

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Speaker 1: trans athlete bands and lawsuits, and how anti trans rhetoric

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Speaker 1: is affecting CIS women in sports too.

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Speaker 2: Plus now is a.

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Speaker 1: Great time to hear about successes and moments of joy.

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Speaker 1: Lord knows we need some joy, so today we help

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Speaker 1: celebrate some slices.

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Speaker 2: It's all coming up right after this.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back, Mish has got your need to know today,

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Speaker 1: Take it away, Mesh.

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Speaker 3: Thank you, Sarah. To college hoops, where we're gearing up

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Speaker 3: for a top ten tip off. The number two Yukon

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Speaker 3: Huskies take on number eight Notre Dame in the Shamrock

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Speaker 3: Classic tonight at seven pm Eastern on EA. The dynamic

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Speaker 3: guard duo of sophomore Hand Hidalgo and senior Olivia Miles

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Speaker 3: has had a hell of a season so far for

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Speaker 3: the Fighting Irish, averaging over forty points a game, combined

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Speaker 3: under the tutelage of former point guard Neil Ivy, who

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Speaker 3: led Notre Dame to its first national championship as a

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Speaker 3: player back in one. The Huskies will be without star

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Speaker 3: Azy Fudd, who suffered a minor right knee brain and

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Speaker 3: last Saturday's win over Louisville. Coach Gino Oriema said Fud

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Speaker 3: is expected to be out all week, which will also

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Speaker 3: likely include Yukon's Big East Conference opener against Georgetown this

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Speaker 3: coming Sunday.

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Speaker 2: Live Laugh, Love college vibs. I know you guys love it.

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Speaker 3: You can't stop saying it now, And all I'm gonna

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Speaker 3: say is you're welcome. The NCAA Tournament continues tonight with

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Speaker 3: the start of the Round of sixteen. The four matches

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Speaker 3: this evening include number one pit taking on number four

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Speaker 3: Oregon and number one Louisville against number four per Due.

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Speaker 3: Will link to the full tournament schedule in our show

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Speaker 3: notes and have you been keeping up with our bracket challenge?

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Speaker 3: Producer Alex wants y'all to know that she's currently tied

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Speaker 3: for third in the standings. Sarah, meanwhile, is forty sixth,

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Speaker 3: so let's just move on from college vibes, we turn

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Speaker 3: to professional vibes. League one Volleyball, also known as LOVE,

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Speaker 3: announced its full broadcast plans for the league's inaugural season,

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Speaker 3: which begins on January eighth. This season, all sixty games

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Speaker 3: will be available to stream either on ESPN plus, the

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Speaker 3: Women's Sports Network, or Dazen Daisen the Zone Anyway, with

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Speaker 3: a handful of games also on ESPN two and ESPNU plus.

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Speaker 3: The LOVE Finals, which will take place from April tenth

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Speaker 3: through the thirteenth, will air on ESPN two. Will link

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Speaker 3: to the full broadcast schedule in our show notes to lacrosse,

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Speaker 3: The new Women's Lacrosse League has announced the names and

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Speaker 3: logos for its inaugural four teams, the Boston Guard, New

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Speaker 3: York Charging, Maryland Charm and California Palms. The teams also

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Speaker 3: announced their respective captains. Charlotte North, who won a national

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Speaker 3: title at Boston College twenty twenty one, we'll return to

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Speaker 3: that city to lead the Guard. Northwestern alum Izzy Scain

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Speaker 3: is heading up New York Terps national champ alex Os

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Speaker 3: Holman will play for Maryland, and Ali Mastriani has the

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Speaker 3: hopes of California resting on her shoulders. The WL also

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Speaker 3: announced the schedule for its twenty twenty five LEXUS Championship Series,

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Speaker 3: a joint tournament with the men's league the PLL or

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Speaker 3: Premier Lacrosse League. The series comes to the nation's capital,

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Speaker 3: more specifically Springfield, Virginia, February eleventh through the seventeenth. This

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Speaker 3: will be the first time that all four WL teams compete,

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Speaker 3: and tickets are on sale now will put the link

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Speaker 3: to purchase in our show notes. Did I mention I

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Speaker 3: love living? You know what I'm gonna say. I ain't

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Speaker 3: even got to say it. Thank you, Misha. We got

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Speaker 3: to take a break when we come back. A predictably

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Speaker 3: thoughtful but surprisingly uplifting conversation with my friend Chris.

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Speaker 2: Mojer joining US now.

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Speaker 1: He's an eight time member of Team USA, a four

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Speaker 1: time national champion, the first transgender athlete to represent the

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Speaker 1: US and international competition, first transgender athlete and the ESPN

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Speaker 1: body issue, first transgender athletes sponsored by Nike, and first

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Speaker 1: transgender athlete to qualify for the Olympic Trials, and the

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Speaker 1: gender they identify. He's the founder of transathlete dot com,

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Speaker 1: a resource for students athletes coaches and administrators to find

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Speaker 1: info about trans inclusion and athletics at all levels of play.

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Speaker 1: He has spoken across the world about inclusion in sports,

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Speaker 1: his experience as a transgender athlete, athlete, activism, and creating

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Speaker 1: more inclusive spaces. And he trained my friend in a

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Speaker 1: triathlon and I see him at sky Games.

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Speaker 2: It's Chris Moser. What's up, Chris?

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Speaker 4: Hello, Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: I'm so glad to have you here. I just want

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Speaker 1: to start with how you're doing. It's been a rough

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Speaker 1: couple weeks for me, and I am a mostly privileged

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Speaker 1: class at least for now, although it seems like women

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Speaker 1: are getting progressively less able to control our own bodies

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Speaker 1: and lives.

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Speaker 2: But I feel like for my marginalized.

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Speaker 1: Friends are particularly my trans friends, it's been particularly tough.

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Speaker 2: So how are you y?

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Speaker 4: Thanks for asking, you know, it is definitely a loaded

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Speaker 4: question these days. I feel like there's a little asterix

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Speaker 4: on that question for everybody, like how are you doing?

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Speaker 4: All things considered right? Like I'm doing okay. I feel

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Speaker 4: like I had my good cry, I had my real

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Speaker 4: freak out moment for sure, and I definitely am kind

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Speaker 4: of going in and out of those those moments, but

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Speaker 4: I feel so activated and inspired to you know, I

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Speaker 4: feel like this is this is the time that I

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Speaker 4: was built for. I really feel motivated and inspired to

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Speaker 4: stand in my power, to stand in my identity, and

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Speaker 4: to really use this moment as a way to create

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Speaker 4: change in the world. And I sort of feel like

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Speaker 4: that's my only option, right, Like it's either that or what. Like,

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Speaker 4: we weren't put on this earth just to survive. I

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Speaker 4: was put here to thrive, I believe, and so I

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Speaker 4: want to create the conditions to make that the most

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Speaker 4: possible in my life and other people's lives.

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Speaker 1: I'm so inspired to hear that. I really hope that

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Speaker 1: comes back to me. I feel like I have such

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Speaker 1: an activist spirit. And in other times I've been like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna be sad and then I'm going to get

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Speaker 1: right back at it. I'm having trouble bouncing back the

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Speaker 1: same way.

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Speaker 2: This time.

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Speaker 1: I just feel so incredibly deflated, and I'm believing in

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Speaker 1: my natural state of like ripshit up and it's that.

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Speaker 2: It's going to come back. I'm not quite.

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Speaker 4: There yet, yeah, and that's fair. You know. I want

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Speaker 4: to say, Sarah, like I believe you are creating. You know,

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Speaker 4: you are doing activism by doing the show, by sharing stories,

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Speaker 4: by elevating and using your platform to provide other people

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Speaker 4: like myself the opportunity to share our experiences and our expertise.

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Speaker 4: But also I feel like this might be helpful for

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Speaker 4: you and for your listeners about why I can feel

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Speaker 4: inspired right now, And it's really because I truly believe

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Speaker 4: two things are true. I believe people are inherently good,

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Speaker 4: and it has really been a challenge for me to

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Speaker 4: lean into that belief in the last couple of weeks,

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Speaker 4: in the outcome of the election, in seeing in the

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Speaker 4: path and the direction that the world is going. But

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Speaker 4: I do truly believe that people are in good, that

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Speaker 4: they want to do good. And then I also secondly

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Speaker 4: believe that people are capable of change, and that when

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Speaker 4: you know better, you can do better. And when you

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Speaker 4: meet somebody with an identity that you don't have and

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Speaker 4: talk to them like a human, you know we can

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Speaker 4: create change in this world. And those are the two

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Speaker 4: things that I have to believe in every single day

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Speaker 4: to be able to show up and do the work

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Speaker 4: that I do.

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Speaker 2: That's really smart too, because that is true. We know

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Speaker 2: that it's true.

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Speaker 1: We know that when people come into contact with trans people,

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Speaker 1: gay people, immigrants, people of a different color, people of

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Speaker 1: a different religion, and they're forced to actually interact with them,

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Speaker 1: they tend to change their minds. There's so many really

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Speaker 1: high profile public examples of that, and unfortunately, we are

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Speaker 1: finding ourselves tribalized in ways that allows for fear mongering

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Speaker 1: to create what feels like bad people, and more often

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Speaker 1: than not, you're probably right. They're misinformed, they're scared, they're

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Speaker 1: worried about their own interest, and it results in what

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Speaker 1: feels like very hateful voting, very hateful policy, Which is

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Speaker 1: why you're here, because it feels like in the last

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Speaker 1: couple of years, the around trans people, both in life

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Speaker 1: and in sport, has become so bifurcated in the sense

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Speaker 1: of like you either think everyone's in one extreme or

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Speaker 1: the other. Either they're hateful and awful and they think

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Speaker 1: trans people shouldn't exist, or on the other side, they

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Speaker 1: want trans participation in sport regardless of policy or equality

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Speaker 1: or fairness. And there's actually so much middle ground to

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Speaker 1: talk about if you're willing to have a conversation, and

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Speaker 1: so I want to start there. How do you think

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Speaker 1: we got here where it feels so black and white.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Well, the truth is sports is incredibly polarizing for

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Speaker 4: a lot of people, and for folks who don't even

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Speaker 4: play sports, who have literally no skin in the game here.

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Speaker 4: They have an opinion about sports. They have an opinion

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Speaker 4: about fairness, they have an opinion about level of play,

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Speaker 4: about competitive nature, and they have a set of beliefs

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Speaker 4: that they believe are right and wrong for the rules

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Speaker 4: of sport. The truth is, sport is a very binary system.

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Speaker 4: You know, like sport didn't create the gender binary, it

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Speaker 4: lives within it. And that complicates this conversation a little

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Speaker 4: bit more. But I believe that sports became the entry

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Speaker 4: point for the attacks on trans people. And I've been

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Speaker 4: saying this for the last decade now. You know, twenty fifteen,

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Speaker 4: twenty sixteen, we started to see bathroom bands pop up

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Speaker 4: around the country, and famously North Carolina pushed back on

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Speaker 4: HB two, and we actually saw a lot of the

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Speaker 4: sports world get involved in that fight at that time.

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Speaker 4: And you know, it's a good question what happened between

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Speaker 4: twenty sixteen where there was all of this outrage about

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Speaker 4: bathroom bands and about attacks on trans people's autonomy and

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Speaker 4: ability to exist in public spaces. And twenty twenty when

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Speaker 4: we saw our first anti transports ban go into effect

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Speaker 4: right before COVID hit. You know, I think that that

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Speaker 4: sport is just a real opportunity for people to dip

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Speaker 4: their foot in. And when we started to see the

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Speaker 4: bands on sports get passed, it was very soon after

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Speaker 4: that every single one of those states started to attack

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Speaker 4: trans people in a different way. So whether it was

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Speaker 4: about medical care, or it was about school pronouns and

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Speaker 4: forced outing in elementary schools, or library books or drag queens,

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Speaker 4: you know, we started to see these attacks from all angles,

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Speaker 4: and sport really was just the entry point to those attacks,

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Speaker 4: because I really don't believe it's about sports, and I

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Speaker 4: really don't believe it's even about health care or about

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Speaker 4: library books. It's about trying to make it so that

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Speaker 4: trans kids don't grow up to be trans adults, and

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Speaker 4: that trans adults have such a horrible time here that

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Speaker 4: they can't live safe, open, healthy and happy lives out

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Speaker 4: in public.

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Speaker 2: And so this is much.

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Speaker 4: Bigger than sports. Sports was just the easy access point

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Speaker 4: because everybody has an opinion about it.

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Speaker 1: An opinion, and because it is, to your point, alongside bathrooms,

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Speaker 1: one of the few places where we are very firm

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Speaker 1: in our decision making around the binary of gender. In

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Speaker 1: almost any other space in life, there are you know,

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Speaker 1: you could walk into any department of the store and

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Speaker 1: you can buy a whole bunch of men's clothes if

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Speaker 1: that's what you want, or women's.

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Speaker 2: Clothes or whatever. They're not actually going to stop you wear.

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Speaker 1: Sports and bathrooms are the place where you're supposed to

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Speaker 1: be limited, and it allows people, to your point, to

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Speaker 1: come in under the guise of caring about women's in girls' sport.

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Speaker 1: And then once you've turned people against trans people and

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Speaker 1: demonized them in a specific way, you can then start

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Speaker 1: pushing for their autonomy and rights to be affected in

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Speaker 1: ways that previously people would not even consider voting for

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Speaker 1: or doing. But now that you've made them evil, you

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Speaker 1: can now try to take away their right to exist.

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Speaker 1: You know, you opened up about your identity, about the

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Speaker 1: gender you identify as in what you wanted to play,

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Speaker 1: as you advocated for policy change years ago, well before

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Speaker 1: this issue was mainstream. Why or as a result of

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Speaker 1: what do you attribute your ability to do that so

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Speaker 1: early in a space that was so unwelcoming.

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Speaker 4: Well, a couple of reasons. The first is that I'm

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Speaker 4: a trans man, and so I navigate the world already

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Speaker 4: with inherited privilege of being perceived as a straight white dude,

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Speaker 4: and so I transition from being, you know, a masculine

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Speaker 4: presenting quote unquote woman who never felt like a woman,

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Speaker 4: and to being perceived as a straight white guy, and

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Speaker 4: that did provide me a lot of privilege to navigate

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Speaker 4: spaces without issue. I think the second part of that

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Speaker 4: in the sports context is that because I was assigned

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Speaker 4: female at birth, people didn't think that I'd be competitive

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Speaker 4: with men and therefore kind of gave me a shoulder

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Speaker 4: shrug and go ahead and participate. We're not worried about

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Speaker 4: you in terms of being competitive, And even when I

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Speaker 4: have had athletic success, which I have been fortunate enough

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Speaker 4: to have in the men's category, it's still got to

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Speaker 4: get a shrug. And there are multiple reasons given from

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Speaker 4: any troll on the internet about why it's not legit

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Speaker 4: or it's not really worth paying attention to. On the

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Speaker 4: flip side of that, any trans woman who just wants

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Speaker 4: to participate in a sport, even in a recreational five

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Speaker 4: k in their local town is facing pushback because of

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Speaker 4: the myths and misinformation that have circulated. So I was

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Speaker 4: able to create change early on because there was a

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Speaker 4: lack of information out there, because we didn't have this

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Speaker 4: full scale fear mongering campaign that exists right now trying

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Speaker 4: to make people believe certain things about the trans community.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I remember it was probably a decade ago that

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Speaker 1: you were at the espnW summit in California, pool Side,

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Speaker 1: giving a lecture about policy at different levels and really

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Speaker 1: just using information that existed to help people understand an

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Speaker 1: issue that was relatively new. There was a survey one year,

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Speaker 1: probably around the same time, maybe just after that, because

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Speaker 1: usually that's around October at the end of the year,

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Speaker 1: asking us, some members of ESPN to fill out some

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Speaker 1: general ideas about stories we'd like to do or things

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Speaker 1: we'd like to see, And one of them was what

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Speaker 1: do you think is a big issue in sports that

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Speaker 1: needs to be tackled that's coming up? And I wrote

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Speaker 1: trans inclusion, trans participation, Like we need to get out

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Speaker 1: ahead of this and start using information because I watched

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Speaker 1: the way your presentation changed the minds of people who

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Speaker 1: were either afraid or unsure or just didn't know. And

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Speaker 1: I think that's part of the problem here, is people

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Speaker 1: are motivated by a lack of knowledge, but not all

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Speaker 1: of them are seeking it right. So I wonder what

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Speaker 1: you think the main motivating factor is for those who

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Speaker 1: are not involved in women's sports. They aren't addressing lack

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Speaker 1: of resources, toxic and abusive coaches, sexual assault and harassment,

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Speaker 1: under investment, unequal opportunity, Title nine violations, the many, many,

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Speaker 1: many things that we could be addressing when it comes

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Speaker 1: to inequality and lack of fairness for women and girls

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Speaker 1: in sport. They're not doing any of that, but they

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Speaker 1: are spending their time advocating against trans participation.

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Speaker 2: What do you think the main motivating factor for those

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Speaker 2: people is?

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Speaker 4: It's absolutely political. I mean, I wish that there was

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Speaker 4: another way I could say it, but the GOP spent

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Speaker 4: over two hundred and fifteen million dollars in this campaign

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Speaker 4: presidential election campaign on ads that were against the trans community.

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Speaker 4: Trump Advance spent over twenty million dollars on this topic alone.

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Speaker 4: And if you think about the number of trans people

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Speaker 4: that are actually participating in sports, you know, it's an

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Speaker 4: outrageous number to put on any topic, but particularly one

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Speaker 4: that is, so, you know, not an issue. We've said

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Speaker 4: for years, this is a solution in search of a problem,

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Speaker 4: and what we've seen is actually that the folks who

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Speaker 4: don't want trans people to exist. And I say it

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Speaker 4: like that because a lot of these sports organizations that

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Speaker 4: are trying to get trans people to not be able

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Speaker 4: to participate in sports, and particularly in women's sports. The

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Speaker 4: other tenets of those organizations are to keep transwomen in

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Speaker 4: men's prisons and to make sure that trans people can't

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Speaker 4: change their gender marker on their IDs. So again, this

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Speaker 4: is not about sports.

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Speaker 1: This is about.

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Speaker 4: Overarching transphobia, misogyny, sexism that exists in the world and

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Speaker 4: targeting the trans community in different ways, and so sports

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Speaker 4: is just one of the ways, but obviously a very

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Speaker 4: successful way. We've seen that right wing media has more

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Speaker 4: clicks and hits on pieces about trans athletes than any

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Speaker 4: other piece about the trans community or LGBTQ people at large,

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Speaker 4: and so this is a hot button topic that they

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Speaker 4: know will get them the clicks, the likes, the views,

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Speaker 4: the shares, and therefore that INCENTI devises more content about it.

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Speaker 4: But also we're seeing that this content is very one sided.

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Speaker 4: So in most of the articles that come out, they

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Speaker 4: never speak to a trans athlete or to even an

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Speaker 4: LGBTQ plus organization that supports the trans community, and so

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Speaker 4: we're seeing a lot of propaganda pieces. And when that's

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Speaker 4: the information that's out there, when ninety percent of the

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Speaker 4: articles are saying that trans people are monsters, that there

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Speaker 4: are a threatened sports, it doesn't matter that there are

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Speaker 4: zero professional transomen athletes right now in the United States.

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Speaker 4: What we're seeing is that, you know, trans athletes are

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Speaker 4: the problem with women's sports, and this dynamic has been

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Speaker 4: set up so that people without the information, like you said,

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Speaker 4: or aren't seeking out the information, believe this to be true,

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Speaker 4: and then for really solid opinions on it, that they

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Speaker 4: will plant their flag in the ground and not be

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Speaker 4: willing to get new information.

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Speaker 1: And I think that's what's so frustrating is I'm open

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Speaker 1: to having these conversations. I want to talk to people

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Speaker 1: about policy at different levels and the best way to

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Speaker 1: handle things and how to make sure it is fair

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Speaker 1: and equitable and safe. But so often it comes at

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Speaker 1: the price of having a conversation with someone who will

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Speaker 1: not use someone's correct pronouns and name, who refuses to

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Speaker 1: acknowledge their identity. And if you can't, at least start

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Speaker 1: by acknowledging and respecting somebody before the conversation begins. I

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Speaker 1: don't believe that you're someone who wants to learn and change,

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Speaker 1: and that makes it really difficult. Have you been asked

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Speaker 1: to have those kind of conversations with quote unquote the

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Speaker 1: opposite side and what's your take on being able to

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Speaker 1: actually change minds through those kind of debates?

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Speaker 4: Yeah? I have. I would say there was a period

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Speaker 4: of time where it was more than one a week,

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Speaker 4: but about once a week I get a request from

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Speaker 4: a TV show, a podcast, radio show, whatever to have

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Speaker 4: a debate quote unquote debate, right, so, to talk about

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Speaker 4: both sides of the issue, And when it's really framed

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Speaker 4: up as a debate, I'm not willing to go onto

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Speaker 4: any show and debate my humanity because that's really what

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Speaker 4: is happening here. To your point, For me to sit

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Speaker 4: with somebody who refuses to use appropriate names and pronouns

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Speaker 4: of trans people, what that shows me is that those

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Speaker 4: people don't believe that trans people exist. Right. If you're

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Speaker 4: just fundamentally unwilling to call a trans woman a woman

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Speaker 4: who is of trans experience to continually misgender her and

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Speaker 4: say that she's a biological man or whatever. We've seen

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Speaker 4: that those those words, that language weaponized against our community,

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Speaker 4: and I just I won't do it. I don't think

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Speaker 4: it's helpful for me to sit and debate. I don't

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Speaker 4: think it's helpful for my mental health, first and foremost.

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Speaker 4: But I don't think it's going to change hearts and

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Speaker 4: minds because if the goal in those in those episodes

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Speaker 4: is to win, right, no one's going to be open

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Speaker 4: to learn about my experience or what the trans community

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Speaker 4: is actually facing. So I think there are different ways

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Speaker 4: to create change, and I do believe that there is

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Speaker 4: a movable middle. Right. There are people who just don't

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Speaker 4: have the information or who have heard a certain thing

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Speaker 4: and are curious to learn more, and just I don't

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Speaker 4: know a respected source to go to. And I think

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Speaker 4: that I can talk to those people and you know,

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Speaker 4: and share my experience and share the experiences of my

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Speaker 4: community in a way that's not shoving it down their

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Speaker 4: throat or trying to get them to change. But I

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Speaker 4: believe if they're open to change, they can at least

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Speaker 4: hear my side, right, Because I'm not here to force

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Speaker 4: change upon anybody. I truly believe if you hear the

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Speaker 4: facts and the information, it would make you scratch your

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Speaker 4: head and go, I wonder why this is such a

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Speaker 4: hot button issue right now? Why are we spending so

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Speaker 4: much money and so much time on this topic right now?

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Speaker 4: And so you know, I'm willing to have those conversations,

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Speaker 4: but not to put myself in the line of fire,

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Speaker 4: because that doesn't make anybody change their minds, and it

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Speaker 4: doesn't make anybody happy either in terms of my community,

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Speaker 4: in terms of other folks. It just creates more polarization, right.

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Speaker 1: I think, to your point, like if the goal is

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Speaker 1: to win a debate, there's way too much nuance in

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Speaker 1: this conversation. To your point, we're trying to operate in

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Speaker 1: a binary system of sports. When we understand that hu

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Speaker 1: are not binary. There is this spectrum. We are not

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Speaker 1: operating with the scientific belief anymore that you're male or

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Speaker 1: female and there's nothing else. There's so much more, and

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Speaker 1: trying to shove that into a binary system is why

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Speaker 1: we're having so much difficulty. It doesn't mean there aren't

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Speaker 1: solutions that can be found, or elections and intentions that

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Speaker 1: can be met, but you have to be willing to

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Speaker 1: speak with nuance, and a lot of times those debates

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Speaker 1: are not what do you say to folks who are

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Speaker 1: genuinely concerned about how trans inclusion might affect fairness or

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Speaker 1: safety in girls and women's sports.

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Speaker 4: I think it's amazing that people are concerned about that.

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Speaker 4: I think that's a starting point, like, let's start there

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Speaker 4: that I'm glad that people have the interest in women's

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Speaker 4: sports to want to ensure fair and safe competition, and

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Speaker 4: also we can have fair and safe competition and be

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Speaker 4: inclusive at the same time. And I have a number

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Speaker 4: of instances and studies that I can share with people

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Speaker 4: about that. But I think more than giving them scientific

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Speaker 4: data or a journal article to read, the lived experience,

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Speaker 4: sharing the lived experience. It's that I have that my

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Speaker 4: friends who are trans women have connecting people, you know,

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Speaker 4: to folks to hear their information, or even connecting them

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Speaker 4: to something like Changing the Game, a documentary on Hulu

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Speaker 4: that I was the executive producer for that actually follows

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Speaker 4: trans athletes and shares their experiences from their own moths. Right,

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Speaker 4: that's the exposure that people need to have to this

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Speaker 4: topic to begin to start to question why we're talking

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Speaker 4: about it so much, and also some of the things

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Speaker 4: that they've heard, like you know, lawmakers are saying that

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Speaker 4: this is a huge problem, and yet like how many

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Speaker 4: trans athletes are out there actually competing? How many could

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Speaker 4: you name? How many do you know of from the

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Speaker 4: news articles? And all of those articles are negative, So

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Speaker 4: it kind of makes you think, like, why are we

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Speaker 4: focusing on this so much?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you're right.

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Speaker 1: We start with human beings and their individual stories changing

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Speaker 1: the game is a great one. Pablo Tory's excellent episode

436
00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:54,960
Speaker 1: about these single trans girl who an entire state created

437
00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:56,960
Speaker 1: a law for so she couldn't sit on the bench

438
00:21:57,000 --> 00:21:59,679
Speaker 1: of a softball team. It is a true story, but

439
00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:02,680
Speaker 1: with the human beings, so that when we say air

440
00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:06,200
Speaker 1: on the side of inclusion and also understand that there's

441
00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:08,480
Speaker 1: policy at every single different level to make sure that

442
00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:11,960
Speaker 1: there's fairness, you start from a place of humanity and

443
00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:13,560
Speaker 1: then you go to the science that backs all of that.

444
00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:17,320
Speaker 1: Soon you've been following the San Jose State volleyball story.

445
00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:20,439
Speaker 1: Just to recap for everybody, Captain Brooks luster on that

446
00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:22,840
Speaker 1: team joined a lawsuit against the NCAA stating that a

447
00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:26,000
Speaker 1: teammate is transgender and poses a safety risk to her

448
00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:28,760
Speaker 1: teammates and competitors across the conference. Then was part of

449
00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:30,800
Speaker 1: a failed motion against the Mountain West that would have

450
00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:34,000
Speaker 1: rendered that player ineligible and removed wins from the team.

451
00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:36,000
Speaker 1: The team has gotten a lot of wins this season

452
00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:38,160
Speaker 1: as a result of forfeits, people not wanting to play

453
00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:41,200
Speaker 1: against them once she tried to out her teammate as transgender.

454
00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:44,359
Speaker 1: There's so much there, but I just wonder what what

455
00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:48,359
Speaker 1: has stood out to you from that situation beyond the obvious,

456
00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:51,119
Speaker 1: which is a teammate and then later an assistant coach

457
00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:53,720
Speaker 1: filing a lawsuit against their own team trying to take

458
00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:56,840
Speaker 1: away wins, and the fact that the player has been

459
00:22:56,880 --> 00:22:58,560
Speaker 1: on the team for three years without incident.

460
00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:03,359
Speaker 4: I mean there's number one, right US teams and schools

461
00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:06,000
Speaker 4: have been playing against this player and this team for

462
00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:08,879
Speaker 4: years and didn't have a problem in the past, and

463
00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:12,160
Speaker 4: then this information comes out and suddenly she's a threat

464
00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:14,520
Speaker 4: and it's a problem, And that, you know, is the

465
00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:17,119
Speaker 4: first thing that should help people scratch their heads and go,

466
00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:19,240
Speaker 4: I wonder what's going on here? You know. The second

467
00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:21,120
Speaker 4: thing is, like, Sarah, I know you are a team

468
00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:24,160
Speaker 4: sport person. Could you imagine this happening on a team,

469
00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:26,840
Speaker 4: and just the fact that they continue to play together,

470
00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:29,960
Speaker 4: you know, I think it really speaks to that accused

471
00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:33,760
Speaker 4: athlete and her sense of self and her motivation to

472
00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:36,760
Speaker 4: continue to play the sport that she loves. Just what

473
00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:40,400
Speaker 4: a horrendous situation that I think is just in terms

474
00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:43,280
Speaker 4: of timing, because we've just come off the election and

475
00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:46,600
Speaker 4: all of this anti trans rhetoric. It's just really ramping

476
00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:48,800
Speaker 4: things up. And I think the most disappointing part of

477
00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:52,280
Speaker 4: this is that just much in the way as young

478
00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:54,960
Speaker 4: people a couple of years ago we kind of laughed

479
00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:58,040
Speaker 4: about them being social media influencers as a full time job,

480
00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:00,920
Speaker 4: it is now a full time job, a lucrative one

481
00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:05,080
Speaker 4: at that, to be anti trans as a young cis

482
00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:07,919
Speaker 4: white girl on some of these teams, and it's like

483
00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:13,720
Speaker 4: we're watching this recruiting pattern happen of organizations like targeting

484
00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:16,880
Speaker 4: teams and trying to get them to make public statements,

485
00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:20,280
Speaker 4: to wear stupid T shirts on stage at political rallies,

486
00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:23,000
Speaker 4: and to speak out when you know, it's just so

487
00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:25,480
Speaker 4: disappointing because to your point at the top of the show,

488
00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:29,119
Speaker 4: there are so many issues that lawmakers and policymakers and

489
00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:32,320
Speaker 4: people interested in preserving and helping women's sports could be

490
00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:36,080
Speaker 4: focusing on like high rates of sexual assault and misconduct,

491
00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:39,280
Speaker 4: lack of title mind compliance, you know, lack of opportunities

492
00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:43,199
Speaker 4: at professional level, money, media attention, on and on and on. Right,

493
00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:46,480
Speaker 4: And if you were truly interested in elevating the sport,

494
00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:50,320
Speaker 4: elevating status of women in sports, we'd be focusing on

495
00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:52,440
Speaker 4: those things instead of trying to make a career off

496
00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:53,560
Speaker 4: of hating trans people.

497
00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:55,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think yeah.

498
00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:58,720
Speaker 1: The fact that there were no issues and she was

499
00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:01,960
Speaker 1: just a volleyball player on a team for years until

500
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:04,800
Speaker 1: you decided to take a clip, go on the internet,

501
00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:08,520
Speaker 1: make it feel viral, say untrue things about her size

502
00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:09,640
Speaker 1: or speed or ability, etc.

503
00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:12,200
Speaker 2: In order to stir people up.

504
00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:16,880
Speaker 1: Is the biggest microcosm macrocosm of the entire thing is

505
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:19,200
Speaker 1: this was not an issue, and you made it one,

506
00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:20,840
Speaker 1: and now you're going to try to profit off that.

507
00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:23,760
Speaker 1: And it's really frustrating and frustrating for the player, but

508
00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:25,480
Speaker 1: also the whole team. The number of games they didn't

509
00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:28,840
Speaker 1: get to play, their college experience completely spoiled by someone

510
00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:32,240
Speaker 1: who made it about herself while pretending it was about

511
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:35,280
Speaker 1: someone else, you know. Anti trans writeric has also started

512
00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:39,639
Speaker 1: to affect CIS women athletes, including some high profile recent cases.

513
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:41,919
Speaker 2: We saw in the Olympics boxer Amani Khaliff.

514
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:45,360
Speaker 1: We saw Whorlando Pride and Zambia national player Barbara Banda

515
00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:47,800
Speaker 1: was named BBC Footballer of the Year.

516
00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:49,840
Speaker 2: This high profile award, this great.

517
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:52,080
Speaker 1: Honor, and it draws the attention of anti trans folks

518
00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:55,640
Speaker 1: like JK Rowling, who has a big following and accuses

519
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:58,400
Speaker 1: Banda of being quote unquote a man and quote unquote

520
00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:02,040
Speaker 1: cheating other female athletes of the prize. You know, some

521
00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:05,120
Speaker 1: details for context from a story in The Athletic. This

522
00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:07,159
Speaker 1: claim stems from reports a couple of years ago that

523
00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:10,280
Speaker 1: the Zambian Football Federation withdrew Barbara Banda from its squad

524
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:12,639
Speaker 1: for the Women's Africa Cup of Nations in Morocco for

525
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:16,960
Speaker 1: quote unquote medical reasons, amid reports of a gender verification test.

526
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:19,639
Speaker 1: Now FIFA and the Confederation of African Football confirmed she

527
00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:23,120
Speaker 1: wasn't disqualified from any participation. The Orlando Pride and says

528
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:26,000
Speaker 1: there's never been a gender verification test done. And then

529
00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:29,320
Speaker 1: Barbara represented Zambia at the World Cup in twenty twenty three,

530
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:32,919
Speaker 1: represented Zambia in the Olympics in Paris, has played for

531
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:36,160
Speaker 1: the NWSL with no issues and crucially it has only

532
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:39,240
Speaker 1: been under CAAF's jurisdiction that there have been problems before.

533
00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:40,360
Speaker 2: Now there's questions, just.

534
00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:43,200
Speaker 1: Like with the Mani Khalif, about the federation that decides

535
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:46,879
Speaker 1: and rules against athletes. And Barbara is eligible for the

536
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:49,760
Speaker 1: next edition of AFCHAN held in Morocco in twenty twenty five.

537
00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:53,400
Speaker 1: So we get one report, or we get one question,

538
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:56,840
Speaker 1: or we get one federation or overseeing board that claims

539
00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:01,400
Speaker 1: something about an athlete, and DSD athletes and and anything else,

540
00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:03,800
Speaker 1: they all get grouped in because of these attacks on

541
00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:06,800
Speaker 1: trans athletes. What do you make of athletes like Khalif

542
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:09,560
Speaker 1: and band who are attacked and questioned as part of

543
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:11,200
Speaker 1: this larger attack on trans athletes.

544
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:14,920
Speaker 4: Well, we have to recognize and understand that this is

545
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:18,720
Speaker 4: an intersectional attack, that this is deeply rooted in racism

546
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:24,120
Speaker 4: and people's ideas of a certain type of white Eurocentric

547
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:28,400
Speaker 4: femininity that is expected to be upheld by the patriarchy.

548
00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:31,320
Speaker 4: And so that is the first point that I think

549
00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 4: you know that flags for me is that we often

550
00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:36,600
Speaker 4: see that women of color and particularly women from the

551
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:40,320
Speaker 4: Global South are targeted in these attacks on gender policing

552
00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:43,040
Speaker 4: at higher rates. And we even saw it. I mean

553
00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:47,639
Speaker 4: as far back as two Olympics ago, Serena Williams, Venus Williams,

554
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:51,320
Speaker 4: even Michelle Obama has been victim of these sort of

555
00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:54,960
Speaker 4: like gender call outs online and it's deeply rooted in

556
00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:59,480
Speaker 4: racist rhetoric. The second thing is that we're seeing these

557
00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:02,800
Speaker 4: attacks in on SIS women and it should call into

558
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:05,960
Speaker 4: question for everyone that if you don't present in a

559
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:09,159
Speaker 4: certain way, you are at risk here right. I know

560
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:12,080
Speaker 4: that in our past conversations we've talked about the ways

561
00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:15,679
Speaker 4: in which you've been gender policed in the restroom. I

562
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:19,399
Speaker 4: specifically remember before I transitioned, when people assumed me to

563
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:22,200
Speaker 4: be a woman, before anyone knew I was trans being

564
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:25,879
Speaker 4: pulled out of a restroom at my workplace because another

565
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:28,960
Speaker 4: woman in the restroom in the women's room said that

566
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:33,280
Speaker 4: I didn't belong there, And I mean, it was incredibly humiliating.

567
00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:36,480
Speaker 4: You know, I can't even begin to express how traumatizing

568
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:38,880
Speaker 4: that was in the workplace. I only use gender neutral

569
00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:42,080
Speaker 4: restrooms for the remainder of my time working there after

570
00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:44,920
Speaker 4: that to have security come in where you work and

571
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:48,200
Speaker 4: pull you out. You know, it was humiliating, and we're

572
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:51,680
Speaker 4: hearing more cases of that happening because when we call

573
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:56,640
Speaker 4: into question online without any legitimate concern or facts, right like,

574
00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:59,280
Speaker 4: this is just something that JK. Rowling put out online

575
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:02,560
Speaker 4: right with the following base that she has, it just

576
00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:06,880
Speaker 4: spreads and then that becomes truth. And then that person, right,

577
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:11,520
Speaker 4: a money Cliff or anybody who's attacked like that, needs

578
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:14,760
Speaker 4: to then defend the fact that you're a woman, right

579
00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:17,360
Speaker 4: like it. It doesn't make sense and h get in

580
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:17,640
Speaker 4: front of.

581
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:22,120
Speaker 1: Right based on historical precedent, violating you know, non medical

582
00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:27,680
Speaker 1: procedures from non medical people, expectations of taking drugs to

583
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:32,960
Speaker 1: affect your natural bodily makeup in pursuit of an artificial

584
00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:38,000
Speaker 1: standard that is different across every single board, every single competition,

585
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:41,560
Speaker 1: every single country, ultimately with the desire to try to

586
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:43,640
Speaker 1: put a cap on what we believe makes you a woman,

587
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:46,360
Speaker 1: and there is no cap on being a man. You

588
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:48,200
Speaker 1: could be as strong and as big and as great

589
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:50,400
Speaker 1: and as wonderful, and every time someone does something bigger

590
00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:53,480
Speaker 1: and better and faster, he's a marvel. But when women

591
00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:57,040
Speaker 1: get better stronger, faster, bigger, they become men and we

592
00:29:57,120 --> 00:29:59,200
Speaker 1: have to demonize them. So to your point, it is

593
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:03,920
Speaker 1: entirely rooted, not just in racism, but deeply held misogyny. Yeah.

594
00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:06,960
Speaker 4: And I think you know, that really calls into the

595
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:10,440
Speaker 4: conversation about restrooms that we're seeing now, because our restroom

596
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:13,840
Speaker 4: conversations are very closely related to locker rooms and sports.

597
00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:16,200
Speaker 4: And this is what people are missing in this giant

598
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:19,280
Speaker 4: conversation is that when people are trying to ban trans

599
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:23,720
Speaker 4: women from women's locker rooms or trans women from women's bathrooms, right,

600
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:27,320
Speaker 4: what they want to do is put everybody in according

601
00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:31,000
Speaker 4: to their assignment at birth, right their original birth certificate,

602
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:34,120
Speaker 4: which puts me and my incredible fancy mustache in a

603
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:37,680
Speaker 4: women's restroom, right. And I think that people don't understand

604
00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:40,160
Speaker 4: and people don't think about that that while people are

605
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:45,080
Speaker 4: creating this, you know, this monster of a person that

606
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 4: they're saying that trans women are and that people should

607
00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:49,960
Speaker 4: be afraid, how do you think it's going to end

608
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:53,440
Speaker 4: when I follow Nancy Mace into the women's bathroom of

609
00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:55,680
Speaker 4: the Capitol, right, I don't think it's going to be

610
00:30:56,240 --> 00:31:00,160
Speaker 4: a safer situation for anyone. And a lot of the

611
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:04,160
Speaker 4: targeting of trans people has been so deeply focused on

612
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:07,200
Speaker 4: trans women, and I think it's because people are afraid

613
00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:11,160
Speaker 4: of cis men, and this is the issue. So if

614
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:14,560
Speaker 4: you are truly afraid of a man coming into a

615
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:17,720
Speaker 4: women's space and assaulting women, what you are afraid of

616
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:22,000
Speaker 4: is cisgender men, not the trans community. And that has

617
00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:25,560
Speaker 4: been something that's been overlooked. We have lawmakers who are

618
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:29,080
Speaker 4: being put onto the cabinet and voted into office who

619
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:33,600
Speaker 4: are known offenders, and yet we're using this as a

620
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:35,920
Speaker 4: distraction from the real issues.

621
00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:36,720
Speaker 2: Yeah.

622
00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 1: Absolutely, And to your point about the bathrooms and who

623
00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:44,160
Speaker 1: gets to go where and how they're presenting. The scary thing,

624
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:47,520
Speaker 1: not just for trans folks, but for all women and girls,

625
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:49,600
Speaker 1: is what that will mean for how they expect you

626
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:53,080
Speaker 1: to present in order to not be subject to their criticism.

627
00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:56,080
Speaker 2: And you know you mentioned I don't even look like

628
00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:56,640
Speaker 2: a dude.

629
00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:58,880
Speaker 1: I just am very tall, and I wear a baseball

630
00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:01,480
Speaker 1: cap a lot and don't try hard to like look

631
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:03,800
Speaker 1: cute all the time. So when people don't look hard,

632
00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:05,160
Speaker 1: they'll look up and be like, yes, sir, what do

633
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:05,800
Speaker 1: you want to my god?

634
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:07,000
Speaker 2: So it's fine, I'm a lady.

635
00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:11,760
Speaker 1: But imagine being if I were a young athlete, and

636
00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:14,040
Speaker 1: when I was a young athlete, if they had said

637
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:16,640
Speaker 1: you're too fast or too tall, you're too strong, you're

638
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:17,520
Speaker 1: probably a boy.

639
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:18,720
Speaker 2: What that would have.

640
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:20,920
Speaker 1: Done to me as someone who was already so insecure

641
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:23,520
Speaker 1: about being taller than all the boys growing up and

642
00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:27,040
Speaker 1: being you know, very physical and very good at sports.

643
00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:29,520
Speaker 1: I got so much confidence from that. But also outside

644
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:32,239
Speaker 1: of sports, it was a lot to carry around as

645
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:35,480
Speaker 1: a little girl. If I was actively being accused by parents,

646
00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:37,640
Speaker 1: which I can almost guarantee if I were an athlete

647
00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:39,920
Speaker 1: right now in this day and age doing what I

648
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:42,280
Speaker 1: used to do, they would someone would just be pissed

649
00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:44,120
Speaker 1: that I was good and try to say.

650
00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:44,560
Speaker 2: Something about it.

651
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:47,480
Speaker 1: And that's what we're demanding, is for every single girl

652
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:49,240
Speaker 1: and woman who walks into a bathroom to be allowed

653
00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:53,360
Speaker 1: to have people say I don't think this one's for you, regardless, regardless,

654
00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:55,680
Speaker 1: And that's bad for trans people, it's bad for everybody.

655
00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:57,560
Speaker 1: And to your point, it really is just rooted in

656
00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:01,080
Speaker 1: a desire to turn away warranted fear and anger at

657
00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:02,720
Speaker 1: men toward women.

658
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:06,520
Speaker 2: Yet again, yes, what can we do to help?

659
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:09,920
Speaker 1: What can we do if we on the sports side

660
00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:13,160
Speaker 1: and in life side that want fairness, want inclusion, want

661
00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:15,760
Speaker 1: everyone to feel like we're coming to good decision making

662
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:17,800
Speaker 1: on this and it's not just pick a side and

663
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:19,120
Speaker 1: stick to it regardless effect.

664
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:20,040
Speaker 2: What can we do to help?

665
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:22,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, the first thing would be get more

666
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:25,960
Speaker 4: information and so you know, at a bare minimum, folks

667
00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:28,680
Speaker 4: can follow me online at the Chris Mosure on any

668
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:32,440
Speaker 4: platform and I'm sharing information about my experience and about

669
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:36,440
Speaker 4: the trans community, you know, just with everybody. And I

670
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:39,480
Speaker 4: can also direct folks to other places to look for information.

671
00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:45,320
Speaker 4: But having updated information and information from a good source

672
00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:48,320
Speaker 4: is important. That goes to the second thing is check

673
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:50,680
Speaker 4: your sources. If you read an article and it has

674
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:54,360
Speaker 4: an incredible anti translant, look at the outlet that is

675
00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:56,440
Speaker 4: coming from, Look at the author that it's coming from.

676
00:33:56,720 --> 00:34:00,560
Speaker 4: See if there are LGBTQ plus or trans voices in article.

677
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:03,440
Speaker 4: Look for that balance because if you are reading a

678
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:06,320
Speaker 4: one sided article that's an opinion piece, that is not news,

679
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:10,040
Speaker 4: that is propaganda. And so it's important to check your sources.

680
00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:12,400
Speaker 4: And then, you know, I think the third thing is

681
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:15,040
Speaker 4: that we can really at this time use our cisgender

682
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:18,839
Speaker 4: allies to speak up, and that could be something as

683
00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:23,319
Speaker 4: small as accompanying your transfriend into the bathroom right now

684
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:27,520
Speaker 4: to help us with safety, always intervening when when transphobic

685
00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:30,160
Speaker 4: comments are being made, and like stopping the conversation, not

686
00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:34,640
Speaker 4: letting those comments pass, not letting transphobia become normalized, which

687
00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:37,759
Speaker 4: it has been, and really using this opportunity to use

688
00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:41,480
Speaker 4: your privilege to call out things, particularly in sports. You know,

689
00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:43,880
Speaker 4: call out the things that would improve women's sports. What

690
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:47,080
Speaker 4: are the real issues that you're facing as a CIS

691
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:50,520
Speaker 4: woman athlete, what would make your life better? And you know,

692
00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:52,840
Speaker 4: I'm going to guess that the top five things that

693
00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:55,120
Speaker 4: you're going to mention is not banning the non existent

694
00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 4: trans athlete from your team. It's going to be something

695
00:34:57,960 --> 00:34:59,959
Speaker 4: that's actually going to move the needle for women's sports.

696
00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:01,920
Speaker 2: Yeah.

697
00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:03,880
Speaker 1: I have said on a previous show that I do

698
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:05,759
Speaker 1: think one of the simplest and easiest things to do

699
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:08,560
Speaker 1: is just to follow trans people on your social media.

700
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:10,920
Speaker 1: Have it be a part of your everyday scrolling and

701
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:14,000
Speaker 1: timeline to see not just the stories about them in sport,

702
00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:15,759
Speaker 1: but what are they doing with their lives and how

703
00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:19,160
Speaker 1: are they human beings? And just like the rest of us, Right, So,

704
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:21,080
Speaker 1: can you give us a couple more folks that maybe

705
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:23,640
Speaker 1: would be good follows that you enjoy following, whether in

706
00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:24,520
Speaker 1: sports or otherwise.

707
00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:27,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, so I would follow Chase Strangio. He is an

708
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:31,759
Speaker 4: ACLU attorney who's about to be the first trans attorney

709
00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:34,640
Speaker 4: at the Supreme Court. On the screen any case this week.

710
00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:39,480
Speaker 4: I would follow athlete Ally is a great organization that

711
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:44,200
Speaker 4: posts information about our community. C C. Telfer is another

712
00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:47,120
Speaker 4: great one, and you can actually go to my Instagram

713
00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:49,000
Speaker 4: and I have a list of athletes that you can

714
00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:49,719
Speaker 4: follow as well.

715
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:52,000
Speaker 2: Perfect we will put it in the show notes for

716
00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:52,800
Speaker 2: people to follow.

717
00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:56,000
Speaker 1: I just feel like if your feed is all people

718
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:58,520
Speaker 1: who look just like you and have the same lived experiences,

719
00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:01,000
Speaker 1: a great way to just start to expand your mind

720
00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:03,320
Speaker 1: and open up your perspective is to just follow a

721
00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:05,000
Speaker 1: whole bunch of people that are very different from you

722
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:07,399
Speaker 1: and then see how similar you are, and then also

723
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:09,799
Speaker 1: learn from the ways you're different. Chris, You're just the

724
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:13,000
Speaker 1: fucking best. You're always the best, And I'm so grateful

725
00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:15,080
Speaker 1: that you came on to talk to us, and please

726
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:17,480
Speaker 1: reach out if you think of more ways that we

727
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:19,239
Speaker 1: can help, we're happy to share them on the show,

728
00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:21,200
Speaker 1: and I'm happy to share them with people that I

729
00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:24,040
Speaker 1: know to make sure that you all feel supported and safe.

730
00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:27,000
Speaker 1: And I think you're one of the people posting about

731
00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:29,480
Speaker 1: the need to get passports and other identification done as

732
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:31,320
Speaker 1: soon as possible, right, So let's let that as the

733
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:34,080
Speaker 1: last message. I'm sure most people already know that, but

734
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:37,160
Speaker 1: just in case, what's that last message there?

735
00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:40,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, So we have a limited number of weeks before

736
00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:43,080
Speaker 4: the inauguration, and in that period of time, it's really

737
00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:46,000
Speaker 4: important for trends and non binary people to secure their

738
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:49,120
Speaker 4: documents and so making sure that they have IDs and

739
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:52,920
Speaker 4: passports and any other documentation that aligns with their identity

740
00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:56,239
Speaker 4: prior to the new administration coming in, because it is

741
00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:59,640
Speaker 4: so incredibly difficult to travel this country with an idea

742
00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:02,000
Speaker 4: that doesn't match who you are, or to register for

743
00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:05,720
Speaker 4: your sports league or navigate the world. And so there's

744
00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:09,240
Speaker 4: information on my page right now on my Instagram also

745
00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:12,880
Speaker 4: pinned post of how folks can do that, and also

746
00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:15,360
Speaker 4: for allies to be able to donate so that we

747
00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:17,920
Speaker 4: can help offset some of the costs for trans people

748
00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:20,000
Speaker 4: to do this in that set amount of time.

749
00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:23,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, expedited all that stuff awesome. Thanks Chris, We.

750
00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:25,040
Speaker 4: Love you, love you too, Thank you so much.

751
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:30,160
Speaker 1: Got to go pay some bills when we come back.

752
00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:35,520
Speaker 1: We share some Slice celebrations, some slicelebrations, some celebrices.

753
00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:45,840
Speaker 2: Just stick with Slice celebrations. Welcome back Slices.

754
00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:49,360
Speaker 1: Last week we celebrated our episode one hundred, and we

755
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:52,160
Speaker 1: asked you all to share something you're celebrating. We love

756
00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:55,600
Speaker 1: this answer from certified Slice Pamela Mudway. She wrote, in

757
00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:58,600
Speaker 1: part quote, my biggest accomplishment this past year was that

758
00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:01,319
Speaker 1: I am now able to exclusive listen to podcasts not

759
00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:04,400
Speaker 1: only about women's sports, but hosted by women who know

760
00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:07,520
Speaker 1: their shit. So thanks to Good Game, The Women's Game,

761
00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:10,759
Speaker 1: the Late sub the Recap Show, and Laughter Permitted for

762
00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:13,920
Speaker 1: providing this longtime female athlete and fan her fill of

763
00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:17,600
Speaker 1: women's sports each week. Good Game, women's podcasters, Good Game

764
00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:20,640
Speaker 1: women listeners. Few men who still think you own the

765
00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:24,600
Speaker 1: space end quote. Such a great list of podcasts. We

766
00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:26,919
Speaker 1: love those shows, we love women who know their shit,

767
00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:29,399
Speaker 1: and we love men and women who listen to this pod.

768
00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:31,160
Speaker 2: In all other pots about women's.

769
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:34,839
Speaker 1: Sports, Slice Aaron Raw also wrote in she said her

770
00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:38,239
Speaker 1: three girls are kicking ass. In particular, the little one,

771
00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:41,120
Speaker 1: Wren set six prs in nine races at her biggest

772
00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:44,680
Speaker 1: swim meet. Her oldest Alex was accepted to her top

773
00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:48,319
Speaker 1: college choice and earned half tuition paid, and she might

774
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:50,200
Speaker 1: still learn some more scholarships too.

775
00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:53,120
Speaker 2: We love that, right, mom, Congrats to the fam.

776
00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:56,960
Speaker 1: Finally, a different kind of celebrating from Slice Elizabeth Oakie.

777
00:38:57,360 --> 00:38:59,799
Speaker 1: She writes, quote, a milestone my friends and I are

778
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:03,720
Speaker 1: working towards is saying no or opting out of plans.

779
00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:06,839
Speaker 1: It's easy to say yes, but we're rewarding ourselves if

780
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:09,280
Speaker 1: we say no. We even made a punch cart. Whoever

781
00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:13,759
Speaker 1: achieves this gets an ice cream. Silly but fun end quote. Hilarious,

782
00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:16,080
Speaker 1: And it's such a funny fact about humans that some

783
00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:18,960
Speaker 1: of us have to work hard to say no guilty,

784
00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:21,279
Speaker 1: and others of us would be well served to say

785
00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:23,479
Speaker 1: yes more often and put ourselves out in the world

786
00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:26,239
Speaker 1: with friends and strangers and just get out there more So,

787
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:29,960
Speaker 1: humans are funny. Thanks for letting us celebrate with the slices.

788
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:31,520
Speaker 1: And you know, we always love that you're listening. But

789
00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:33,279
Speaker 1: we want you to get in the game every day too,

790
00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:35,560
Speaker 1: So here's our good game play of the day. We

791
00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:37,560
Speaker 1: know that The holidays can be tough for some people,

792
00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:39,400
Speaker 1: but for a lot of us, it's a chance to

793
00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:42,400
Speaker 1: be with family, blood or chosen, to search for the

794
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:45,279
Speaker 1: perfect gifts, to plan and attend parties, give time to

795
00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:47,719
Speaker 1: local charities and causes, and just you know, really soak

796
00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:49,160
Speaker 1: up the love and all the support.

797
00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:50,719
Speaker 2: Of our communities. So we want to know if you

798
00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:51,640
Speaker 2: have a great.

799
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:54,719
Speaker 1: Holiday tradition to share, maybe something that other slices would

800
00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:56,800
Speaker 1: want to adopt. I've got a few to share it,

801
00:39:56,840 --> 00:39:59,080
Speaker 1: but I want to hear yours because I might.

802
00:39:59,000 --> 00:39:59,520
Speaker 2: Just steal some.

803
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 1: If you guys have some creative or fun or meaningful

804
00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:04,879
Speaker 1: annual events or practices, I want to hear about them.

805
00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:07,200
Speaker 1: I might steal them. Send them to me at Spain

806
00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:09,960
Speaker 1: two three two three on Twitter, slash x at Sarahspain

807
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:12,319
Speaker 1: dot com on Blue Sky, or at Spain two three

808
00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:14,600
Speaker 1: two three on Insta, or you can always hit us

809
00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:17,080
Speaker 1: up on email, good game at Wondermedia network dot com,

810
00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:19,160
Speaker 1: or leave us a voicemail at eight seven two two

811
00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:22,640
Speaker 1: O four fifty seventy, and don't forget to subscribe or

812
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:23,400
Speaker 1: rate and review.

813
00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:24,120
Speaker 2: It's easy.

814
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:28,680
Speaker 1: Watch a little party on your fingernails. Rating five out

815
00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:32,680
Speaker 1: of five treat yourselves review man Do I love a

816
00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:33,680
Speaker 1: holiday manicure?

817
00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:35,960
Speaker 2: A delicious espresso.

818
00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:38,120
Speaker 1: Martini tastes even better when it's picked up by a

819
00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:42,719
Speaker 1: hand dotted with glittery goold nails. Wrapping presents is more

820
00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:46,560
Speaker 1: fun with tiny little trees on every finger. Even biting

821
00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:48,600
Speaker 1: off a glove to open up a poop bag and

822
00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:51,480
Speaker 1: pick up my dog's turds is a little less terrible

823
00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:55,319
Speaker 1: when a bright red manny pops out long live quote

824
00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:59,239
Speaker 1: unquote self care. See easy you do it, Subscribe, rate

825
00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:02,920
Speaker 1: and review. Thanks for listening. We'll see you tomorrow. Good Game, Chris,

826
00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:06,040
Speaker 1: Good Game Learning how to say no h you? Jk

827
00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:11,840
Speaker 1: Rowling like for Real, for Real. Good Game with Sarah

828
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:14,560
Speaker 1: Spain is an iHeart women's sports production in partnership with

829
00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:17,000
Speaker 1: Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. You can find us on

830
00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:20,480
Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

831
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:24,000
Speaker 1: Production by Wonder Media Network, our producers are Alex Azzie

832
00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:27,680
Speaker 1: and Misha Jones. Our executive producers are Christina Everett, Jesse Katz,

833
00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:31,040
Speaker 1: Jenny Kaplan, and Emily Rudder. Our editors are Emily Rutterer,

834
00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:34,880
Speaker 1: Britney Martinez, Grace Lynch and Lindsay Crawdowell. Production assistants from

835
00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:37,240
Speaker 1: Lucy Jones and I'm Your Host Sarah Spain.