1 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:20,680 Speaker 1: With Felsman Couples. This week is all about you. Maybe 2 00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:22,840 Speaker 1: you're the couple that fights all the time, or maybe 3 00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:25,760 Speaker 1: not at all. Either way, doctor Marina has the feedback 4 00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:28,920 Speaker 1: you need to hear. She's a couple therapists who specializes 5 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:31,880 Speaker 1: in high conflict couples. She will talk us through why 6 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:35,120 Speaker 1: some people get stuck in escalation, how to spot the cycle, 7 00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:37,440 Speaker 1: and how do we connect and repair even when it 8 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:47,879 Speaker 1: seems impossible. So let's do this. I have doctor Marina 9 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:51,479 Speaker 1: Rosenthal joining me. She's a high conflict couples therapist, and 10 00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:53,680 Speaker 1: I'm really excited to get a chat with you. 11 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 2: Thanks for being here, Thanks so much for having me. 12 00:00:56,960 --> 00:01:00,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, we listen. Relationships are a part of every BIS 13 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:03,440 Speaker 1: day to day life, and it's really important that we 14 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:07,240 Speaker 1: understand how to interact within those relationships. And I think 15 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:09,600 Speaker 1: you were the perfect expert for this topic. 16 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:13,000 Speaker 2: I'm so glad to be here and totally ready to 17 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:13,480 Speaker 2: dive in. 18 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:16,199 Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's exactly what we're gonna do. But before 19 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:19,319 Speaker 1: we get into kind of the nitty gritty, what kind 20 00:01:19,319 --> 00:01:22,920 Speaker 1: of makes it different between just a couple's therapist and 21 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:25,600 Speaker 1: a high conflict couple's therapist. 22 00:01:26,360 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, so I'm a psychologist. I'm a certified sex therapist, 23 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:32,520 Speaker 2: and I certainly work with couples who are not high conflict, 24 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:36,920 Speaker 2: but my specialties working with couples who have found other 25 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:41,319 Speaker 2: forms of couples therapy ineffective, who are looking everywhere and 26 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:44,319 Speaker 2: being told I don't know, maybe you should just break up, 27 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:48,640 Speaker 2: your relationship looks too terrible, give up. Basically I don't 28 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:51,160 Speaker 2: know how to help you. Often the couples that I 29 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:53,840 Speaker 2: work with have tried couples therapy and felt like their 30 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:56,880 Speaker 2: therapist didn't know what to do with them, like they 31 00:01:57,000 --> 00:02:00,800 Speaker 2: just talked round and round, fought during session and left 32 00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:05,480 Speaker 2: feeling worse, feeling really discouraged. And so part of what 33 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:08,280 Speaker 2: I do is meet those couples where they are and 34 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:11,760 Speaker 2: help them how to figure out really concretely and tactically, 35 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:14,760 Speaker 2: how to change the cycle that they're caught in. Because 36 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:17,360 Speaker 2: even though things are really bad, if the relationship is 37 00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:20,639 Speaker 2: fundamentally safe, we're not talking about a situation of abuse, 38 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:23,280 Speaker 2: often there are things that can be done, There are 39 00:02:23,320 --> 00:02:25,600 Speaker 2: ways to change the cycle. It's just that some of 40 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:27,960 Speaker 2: the standard tips and tricks that might work for a 41 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:30,960 Speaker 2: lot of couples don't work for high conflict couples. 42 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:35,760 Speaker 1: Oh, that's really important because I think once you're told 43 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:37,480 Speaker 1: by one person, it's like when you go to a 44 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:39,120 Speaker 1: doctor and they're like, well you have this, and you 45 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 1: get bumped because you're like, that's my only option. Instead 46 00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:47,600 Speaker 1: this other variety for somebody to go and try another 47 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:50,640 Speaker 1: avenue that they maybe didn't think they had the option for. 48 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:52,720 Speaker 1: Does that feel accurate? 49 00:02:53,320 --> 00:02:56,480 Speaker 2: It is? I use that analogy often encouraging people to 50 00:02:56,480 --> 00:02:59,640 Speaker 2: get second opinions, encouraging people to be really thoughtful about 51 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:02,760 Speaker 2: are you seeing a specialist first of all, somebody who 52 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:06,359 Speaker 2: primarily works with couples, specialized in couples, And then are 53 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:08,519 Speaker 2: you seeing a therapist who's not going to be overwhelmed 54 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:11,280 Speaker 2: when you come in and talk in circles? A lot 55 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:14,840 Speaker 2: of high conflict couples have one partner, if not too 56 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:17,600 Speaker 2: who have some degree of neurodivergence, who have a partner 57 00:03:17,919 --> 00:03:22,720 Speaker 2: with ADHD or who is autistic, and therapists sometimes misunderstand 58 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:26,360 Speaker 2: what's happening and assume bad intent or assume like, oh, 59 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:28,880 Speaker 2: you're just not following the rules. I gave you rules 60 00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:31,360 Speaker 2: and you didn't follow them, and actually what's going on 61 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:34,520 Speaker 2: might be neurodivergence might be trauma, might be a bunch 62 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:37,000 Speaker 2: of other things where there's not a bad guy, there's 63 00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:39,040 Speaker 2: nobody to be blamed, but we do need to figure 64 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:41,040 Speaker 2: out how to meet these people where they're at and 65 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:44,680 Speaker 2: help them work together for the relationship that they want. 66 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:48,240 Speaker 1: How often is it that you have couples come in 67 00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:50,920 Speaker 1: and you see, oh, yeah, this has been going on 68 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:53,880 Speaker 1: for a long time and you're finally just now starting 69 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 1: to realize this is getting worse. Do you often see 70 00:03:56,920 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 1: them come in at the point where they feel like 71 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:01,760 Speaker 1: there's now return or do you feel like you are 72 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:03,600 Speaker 1: starting to see couples more and more at the very 73 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:07,320 Speaker 1: beginning of a relationship and they're going to try and 74 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 1: do therapy proactively. 75 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:13,080 Speaker 2: I definitely get both. Because of the nature of my specialty, 76 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:15,200 Speaker 2: I think I tend to get more of those last 77 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 2: chance couples than maybe other people are. But I have 78 00:04:19,480 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 2: worked with many people who are dating, who are not married, 79 00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:26,880 Speaker 2: who haven't ultimately decided that they're going to go forward 80 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:30,360 Speaker 2: with their commitment or not, but want to actually put 81 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:33,720 Speaker 2: in the effort to address the problems they're having before 82 00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 2: calling it. And I think that's so wise, especially for 83 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 2: couples who are having kind of like messy fights. What 84 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:43,120 Speaker 2: I've found is that often you could break up, find 85 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:45,680 Speaker 2: a new partner, and some of those patterns will follow 86 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:48,680 Speaker 2: you to that next relationship if you don't actually address them. So, 87 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:51,280 Speaker 2: whether this is the person or not, it's not going 88 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:53,240 Speaker 2: to hurt you to figure out what the heck is 89 00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:53,640 Speaker 2: going on. 90 00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:57,640 Speaker 1: So, if we're working in that proactive space and you 91 00:04:57,720 --> 00:05:02,159 Speaker 1: take someone like me who you know is new in 92 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:06,320 Speaker 1: a relationship but they're starting to navigate and obviously they 93 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:08,679 Speaker 1: want one day to get married. When you see someone 94 00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:11,560 Speaker 1: like me, what is some potential advice you would give 95 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:14,919 Speaker 1: them to be like, maybe work on your relationship in 96 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:18,360 Speaker 1: this capacity to ensure you don't have X y Z 97 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 1: later down the road. I think there's this missed opportunity 98 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:23,680 Speaker 1: when it comes to like singles or people in new 99 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:27,320 Speaker 1: relationships where we're not really prepping them for what's to come. 100 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:29,880 Speaker 1: It's more just like, yeah, you want love and you 101 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:33,440 Speaker 1: want to be married, and that's really cool, but also, 102 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:37,280 Speaker 1: here's some things you can potentially do to avoid kind 103 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:38,799 Speaker 1: of long term disaster. 104 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:42,520 Speaker 2: Yeah. I think that's so important and it's something I 105 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:46,600 Speaker 2: talk a lot about that we have these big aspirations 106 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:50,479 Speaker 2: for most people that I talk to want to get married, 107 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:52,040 Speaker 2: and they want to stay married for life, right, Like, 108 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:55,080 Speaker 2: that's a very typical desire. Of course, not everybody wants 109 00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:59,320 Speaker 2: those things, but a lot of people do, and unfortunately, 110 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:02,200 Speaker 2: I think most people are not prepared with the both 111 00:06:02,279 --> 00:06:07,000 Speaker 2: like behavioral skills, communication skills, and also the mindset to 112 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:10,280 Speaker 2: effectively achieve that goal. So you go in with this 113 00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:13,000 Speaker 2: beautiful goal and you're like, Oh, I've met my person. 114 00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 2: We're going to be so happy together, And then the 115 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:18,920 Speaker 2: very natural process of a relationship developing and changing over 116 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:23,160 Speaker 2: time takes people by surprise. Something I say often is 117 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:25,960 Speaker 2: like everybody knows that, kind of like truism, Like, oh, 118 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 2: marriage is hard. You've heard that a million times. I 119 00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:32,960 Speaker 2: think often no one explained and really walked folks through, Well, 120 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:35,000 Speaker 2: how is it hard? What are we talking about here? 121 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 2: What's normal and healthy? What do we expect? What should 122 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:41,080 Speaker 2: we see as warning signs and problems both within the 123 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:44,280 Speaker 2: self and also within the relationship. So in terms of 124 00:06:44,320 --> 00:06:47,400 Speaker 2: some proactive things, one of the things that I think 125 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:52,720 Speaker 2: is really under utilized is thinking about your differences as strengths. 126 00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 2: So starting off in a relationship, people are often drawn 127 00:06:56,240 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 2: to each other, not just because you're compatible you have 128 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:02,120 Speaker 2: things in common, but also because there's qualities where it's like, oh, 129 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:04,479 Speaker 2: you're a little different from me, and I like that 130 00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:06,920 Speaker 2: about you. I know that when I met my husband, 131 00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:10,920 Speaker 2: I loved that he was really chill. He's like a calm, 132 00:07:11,200 --> 00:07:14,480 Speaker 2: mellow person. He doesn't get riled up easily. It's like, Oh, 133 00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:18,560 Speaker 2: this is so soothing and relaxing. I feel so emotionally safe. 134 00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:20,960 Speaker 2: He's not an escalator. He's never going to be the 135 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:24,480 Speaker 2: person during a fight to say a mean thing or 136 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:27,200 Speaker 2: like take it too far. That's just not him. But 137 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:29,480 Speaker 2: let's like take that trait and look at it from 138 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:32,680 Speaker 2: three hundred and sixty degrees. He's really calm, he's really mellow. 139 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 2: Does that mean that he's like the most proactive person 140 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 2: on the planet. Yeah, it actually doesn't. He's not. And 141 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:41,960 Speaker 2: so then when that comes up, being able to hold 142 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:44,320 Speaker 2: the whole person and be like, oh, yeah, like here's 143 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:47,640 Speaker 2: this person I chose. I really like one aspect of 144 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:50,320 Speaker 2: this trait. Another aspect of it is driving me up 145 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:52,480 Speaker 2: the wall right now. But they do go together. And 146 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:54,760 Speaker 2: that doesn't mean you can't ask for change. You can't say, hey, 147 00:07:54,800 --> 00:07:57,200 Speaker 2: here's what I need from you differently. But being able 148 00:07:57,240 --> 00:07:59,560 Speaker 2: to keep holding on to the parts of your partner 149 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:02,680 Speaker 2: true you to them and not making them bad, I 150 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:03,920 Speaker 2: think is so important. 151 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:08,040 Speaker 1: Wow, I've never thought of that kind of juxposition of 152 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:11,040 Speaker 1: a trait, and you just made my entire mind kind 153 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:13,920 Speaker 1: of blow. Okay, these are all the things I love, 154 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:18,000 Speaker 1: but I've never really looked at it from this bigger perspective. Gosh, 155 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:22,120 Speaker 1: that's great tip. So cool. We often hear that communication 156 00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:25,560 Speaker 1: is the key, make sure you have great communication. This 157 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 1: is so important. Is it that important? And if so, 158 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:32,520 Speaker 1: why is it so important because it's getting lost in 159 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:35,760 Speaker 1: translation because it's so thrown around very often. 160 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:38,600 Speaker 2: That's such a good point. I think any of these, 161 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 2: like truisms, pieces of advice you've heard all the time, 162 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:44,280 Speaker 2: can get a little distorted. And it is true that 163 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:48,040 Speaker 2: most couples who reach out to couples therapists say communication 164 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:51,560 Speaker 2: is a problem. We can't communicate. Most people say that's 165 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:54,480 Speaker 2: the problem, and I would agree. I think that often 166 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:58,200 Speaker 2: is the problem. But the way that communication is going 167 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:01,400 Speaker 2: awry can be really different from couple to couples. So 168 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:05,280 Speaker 2: some couples don't communicate right, They don't share things that 169 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 2: are concerning them, like hey, you hurt me, could you 170 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:10,880 Speaker 2: not do that next time? That just gets unsaid and 171 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:13,680 Speaker 2: builds up resentment. That's not the type of couple I 172 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:15,800 Speaker 2: tend to work with, because I work with high conflict 173 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:19,600 Speaker 2: couples where people say this stuff. The issue isn't repressing it, 174 00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:23,440 Speaker 2: it's how it gets delivered. And very often what happens 175 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:28,040 Speaker 2: is that something that's really like a vulnerable emotion like 176 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:31,120 Speaker 2: oh that hurt me, I felt left behind, I missed you, 177 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:34,320 Speaker 2: I felt betrayed. These soft kind of tender feelings that 178 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:37,720 Speaker 2: would bring our partners toward us get wrapped up in 179 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:41,360 Speaker 2: a whole bunch of other stuff like criticism, like attacks 180 00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:44,120 Speaker 2: on their character, like describing them in ways that feel 181 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:46,520 Speaker 2: really icky to them, and then they have to fight back, 182 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:48,840 Speaker 2: and that's when you get a lot of defensiveness and 183 00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:52,240 Speaker 2: it can start a loop of really negative communication where 184 00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:55,280 Speaker 2: nobody's getting hurt. So I think that communication is key, 185 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:57,240 Speaker 2: but first we have to figure out what is not 186 00:09:57,320 --> 00:10:00,920 Speaker 2: working in a given couple's communication dynam And even if 187 00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:03,920 Speaker 2: your relationship is going great, you can still think through 188 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:07,560 Speaker 2: like what's our achilles heel? Like what communication trap are 189 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:10,160 Speaker 2: we most likely to fall into so that we can 190 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 2: spot it when it starts to come up. 191 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:19,080 Speaker 1: You mentioned this spotting that this is happening when you're 192 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:23,080 Speaker 1: communicating with someone. Is there an alertness to that where 193 00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:27,080 Speaker 1: you're like, oh, that doesn't feel right, Like how is 194 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:31,880 Speaker 1: somebody supposed to pinpoint something that's normal versus something that's 195 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:34,040 Speaker 1: probably not what's supposed to be happening. 196 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:37,200 Speaker 2: Yeah. One of the things I really encourage is for 197 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:42,000 Speaker 2: people to practice mindfulness within themselves and within their relationship, 198 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:46,880 Speaker 2: not like sitting and meditating, but just being observational, like, oh, 199 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:51,520 Speaker 2: that's really interesting. I noticed that when I described for 200 00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:55,240 Speaker 2: like two minutes straight how I didn't like something that 201 00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:59,640 Speaker 2: my husband did, he seems withdrawn and quiet, and then 202 00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:02,319 Speaker 2: he's said okay in a flat voice, and I didn't 203 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:05,960 Speaker 2: feel very good afterward, like huh, what just went down? 204 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:09,680 Speaker 2: And it's easy to point fingers and go like he's 205 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 2: just being defensive and he can't take any critical feedback 206 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:16,080 Speaker 2: and blame him, but like, okay, let's actually pause and 207 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:19,960 Speaker 2: look at me. Did I neutrally make a request? Did 208 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:22,520 Speaker 2: I go on and on about all the terrible things 209 00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:24,800 Speaker 2: he's done and all the things I've imagined he could 210 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:27,200 Speaker 2: have done. How did I show up? How would it 211 00:11:27,280 --> 00:11:30,120 Speaker 2: have felt to me if he described me that way? 212 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:33,720 Speaker 2: And just observing, like what effect am I having on 213 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:36,360 Speaker 2: the people around me? In the same way that we 214 00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:40,079 Speaker 2: do in other relationships, I think, really seamlessly, like, oh, 215 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:41,920 Speaker 2: my friend didn't seem to like it when I gave 216 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:44,280 Speaker 2: her advice, so maybe I won't do that next time. 217 00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:47,800 Speaker 2: Or it seems like my coworker would rather not chit 218 00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:51,960 Speaker 2: chat during time at lunch together, Final'll chat with somebody else, right, 219 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:55,280 Speaker 2: Like we're often pretty perceptive in other relationships and don't 220 00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:58,640 Speaker 2: do that same self assessment in our romantic relationships. 221 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:02,559 Speaker 1: Do you feel often happens because people get so comfortable 222 00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:06,520 Speaker 1: And I'm seeing often in relationships that you get so 223 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:10,440 Speaker 1: comfortable with this person that they come your springboard for 224 00:12:10,559 --> 00:12:13,480 Speaker 1: everything that's happening in your life, and you just get 225 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:16,000 Speaker 1: used to that, and it's someone that's around all the time, 226 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 1: and then you wake up five years from now and 227 00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:22,319 Speaker 1: you've thrown all this stuff at this person and back 228 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:27,000 Speaker 1: and forth that it's just easy and comfortable, and you've forgot, oh, 229 00:12:27,040 --> 00:12:28,080 Speaker 1: that's another human being. 230 00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:31,719 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's a huge factor if you're with 231 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:35,040 Speaker 2: someone all the time, day and day out. You're doing 232 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:38,800 Speaker 2: both your romantic love life, but you're also perhaps caring 233 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:42,120 Speaker 2: for pets together, doing finances together, making meals, raising kids, 234 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:47,040 Speaker 2: whatever folks are doing. It's a lot on your relationship, 235 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:51,720 Speaker 2: and over time most people lower their standards of like 236 00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:57,679 Speaker 2: baseline respectful communication, baseline treatment. And to some extent that's okay. 237 00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:00,520 Speaker 2: That can reflect just that you're very comfortable with each other. 238 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:03,520 Speaker 2: You don't always have to be in your cutest clothes 239 00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:05,880 Speaker 2: looking perfect in front of your long term partner. You 240 00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:08,520 Speaker 2: can really be yourself. But I think sometimes its slides 241 00:13:08,559 --> 00:13:12,000 Speaker 2: too far, where if we actually wrote down, and as 242 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:14,520 Speaker 2: a couple's therapists, in some cases it's my job to 243 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:17,680 Speaker 2: actually write down like, oh, this person said in these 244 00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:22,160 Speaker 2: exact words, like you care about nobody but yourself, you're 245 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:25,160 Speaker 2: lazy and selfish. Would we think that was a nice 246 00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:26,920 Speaker 2: thing to say, Like, would we think that was a 247 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:29,600 Speaker 2: respectful way to talk to your partner? No, of course not. 248 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:31,880 Speaker 2: But we're not putting it through that lens. 249 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:35,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, gosh, And it's really hard. I feel like 250 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:39,360 Speaker 1: you do get so comfortable and there is that kind 251 00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:42,840 Speaker 1: of gray area that things get crossed over. Where it's comfortable, 252 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:45,439 Speaker 1: but also there is such a thing as too much comfort, 253 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:49,200 Speaker 1: and we just don't really see that to your point 254 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:51,400 Speaker 1: from the bird's eye view or seeing it in that moment. 255 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:54,960 Speaker 2: That's a good example of something I talk about a 256 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:57,240 Speaker 2: lot that some people hold a belief that honestly, I 257 00:13:57,240 --> 00:14:00,400 Speaker 2: think is from like romantic comedies or I don't know 258 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:03,120 Speaker 2: where we got it, but this idea that you should 259 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:05,840 Speaker 2: be able to say literally anything to your partner and 260 00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:08,040 Speaker 2: they should just be okay with it. You should be 261 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:10,520 Speaker 2: able to tell them your worst thoughts about them. You 262 00:14:10,559 --> 00:14:13,680 Speaker 2: should be able to tell them sometimes I think about 263 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:15,680 Speaker 2: my ex and what my life would be like with them, 264 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:17,240 Speaker 2: and that they should just be able to roll with that. 265 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:20,880 Speaker 2: And most people just can't handle that level of kind 266 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:24,560 Speaker 2: of like critical content, and often it's not that meaningful, right, 267 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:27,520 Speaker 2: Everybody has fleeting thoughts that are negative about each other, 268 00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:30,400 Speaker 2: and your partner doesn't need like a billboard update on 269 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:33,040 Speaker 2: like oh I had this thought about you and then 270 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:35,480 Speaker 2: it passed. They really don't need that. And so breaking 271 00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:38,160 Speaker 2: down this myth that you need to be able to 272 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:41,640 Speaker 2: tell your partner exactly what you're thinking in every single 273 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:43,920 Speaker 2: moment in order to be authentic. That's just not true. 274 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:47,360 Speaker 1: Yeah. The older I get, the more I have learned 275 00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:52,000 Speaker 1: that romantic movies and rom coms have definitely sabotaged the 276 00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:55,600 Speaker 1: way that I perceive relationships for sure. What are some 277 00:14:55,640 --> 00:14:58,920 Speaker 1: ways do you speaking of sabotage that you feel like 278 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:01,800 Speaker 1: people are sabotaging their relationships. 279 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:05,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's such a good question. So Number one I 280 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:08,400 Speaker 2: think is like unreasonable expectations. And when I talk about 281 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:10,760 Speaker 2: this sometimes I get a little pushback because we don't 282 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:13,040 Speaker 2: want to tell people to settle. That's really not the 283 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:16,400 Speaker 2: spirit of what I'm saying. I actually believe generally we 284 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:19,680 Speaker 2: get more out of our relationships by expecting a little 285 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:24,000 Speaker 2: bit less or by having reasonable, realistic expectations for like 286 00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:26,800 Speaker 2: what one other human being can actually do for us. 287 00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:30,040 Speaker 2: So setting yourself up for success first of all, just 288 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:34,280 Speaker 2: by having realistic expectations, I think is a great place 289 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:36,040 Speaker 2: to start. 290 00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:41,320 Speaker 1: I love that, And because I also do have had 291 00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:44,960 Speaker 1: moments in my early relationships where I did have unrealistic expectations. 292 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:47,000 Speaker 1: So as you were saying them, like, yeah, there are 293 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:50,960 Speaker 1: moments of there where I definitely should have owned in 294 00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:54,400 Speaker 1: my relationships that I was expecting things and it was 295 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:57,239 Speaker 1: convoluted in the sense that it was like, I'm not settling, 296 00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:00,960 Speaker 1: and I'm asking this of you instead of seeing that 297 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:03,640 Speaker 1: person is who they were, and I was asking the 298 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:04,520 Speaker 1: wrong person. 299 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:07,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's such a good point. I think this is 300 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:11,800 Speaker 2: a big conversation that's being had right now, which is 301 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:14,960 Speaker 2: what can we expect of each other? And if a 302 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:17,640 Speaker 2: person can't meet your needs, what do you do about it? 303 00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 2: Do you leave because they can't meet your needs? Which, 304 00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:23,000 Speaker 2: to be clear, is absolutely always an option. And I 305 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:26,360 Speaker 2: think in the dating stage, if you're trying on different partners, 306 00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:30,880 Speaker 2: it's really appropriate to not invest more time in somebody 307 00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:33,520 Speaker 2: if you realize they're not likely to meet my needs. 308 00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:36,040 Speaker 2: This is just who they are. If you've tried on 309 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:38,840 Speaker 2: a lot of somebody is if you've had multiple serious 310 00:16:38,880 --> 00:16:43,760 Speaker 2: relationships that over and over you're hearing like, this isn't realistic. 311 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:46,240 Speaker 2: Nobody's going to be able to meet these needs. Sometimes 312 00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:49,960 Speaker 2: that's worth kind of looking into and cross checking are 313 00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:52,200 Speaker 2: what I'm saying are my needs? Are they actually needs? 314 00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:54,920 Speaker 2: Or are they things that I can be fulfilling for myself. 315 00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:57,680 Speaker 2: But for folks who are in a long term commitment, 316 00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:01,400 Speaker 2: for whom leaving a relationship is very complex due to 317 00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:05,199 Speaker 2: kids and money and property. It's very often just not 318 00:17:05,320 --> 00:17:07,479 Speaker 2: that simple. I think we want to pretend that it 319 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:10,000 Speaker 2: is and be like, if you're not one hundred percent happy, 320 00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:12,760 Speaker 2: leave now. And of course, if that's what you want 321 00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:14,600 Speaker 2: to do, and you can do, that's great. But I 322 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:16,760 Speaker 2: tend to try to want to meet people where they're at, 323 00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:19,240 Speaker 2: which often is like, I don't know. What I want 324 00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:21,840 Speaker 2: is for this to be fifteen percent better, and I'm 325 00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:24,439 Speaker 2: having a really hard time getting there, and it seems 326 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:26,399 Speaker 2: like one option might be leaving, but that would be 327 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:29,400 Speaker 2: a huge hassle, and I do love this person. It's 328 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:30,800 Speaker 2: more ambiguous, it's murkier. 329 00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:35,320 Speaker 1: Do you often feel like with these couples once they 330 00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:36,800 Speaker 1: get to this point and they come to you and 331 00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:39,560 Speaker 1: they're wanting things to get better, do you feel like 332 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:43,480 Speaker 1: it has built up so much over time or is 333 00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:46,360 Speaker 1: it just one moment in the whole volcano explodes. 334 00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:51,520 Speaker 2: What's really interesting a lot of high conflict couples. We're 335 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:54,960 Speaker 2: high conflict from the very beginning of their relationship, which 336 00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:58,920 Speaker 2: I understand might go like, okay, well, then get a 337 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:03,159 Speaker 2: different relationship, and again that's a perfectly valid option. What 338 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:05,320 Speaker 2: I've found also, though, is that a lot of the time, 339 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:08,280 Speaker 2: the reason they're high conflict is like they're working out 340 00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:10,639 Speaker 2: some stuff on each other, and often there's a lot 341 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:15,120 Speaker 2: of trauma involved, and people are facing some of their 342 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:19,479 Speaker 2: own personal demons in a way through this relationship, and 343 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:22,960 Speaker 2: it is all showing up and that's painful, it's unpleasant, 344 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:26,439 Speaker 2: but there can be some really fruitful work on the 345 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:29,640 Speaker 2: other side of it. Like often high conflict couples are 346 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:32,320 Speaker 2: just like madly in love. The love is so big 347 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:35,520 Speaker 2: and they just do not know how to stop going 348 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:39,840 Speaker 2: on this escalator of intense conflict and are very much puzzled, 349 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:42,240 Speaker 2: like why do we do this? What is up with us? 350 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:45,800 Speaker 2: We're in love with each other, we are compatible. Why 351 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 2: do we keep acting like this? Is like almost confusing 352 00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:51,840 Speaker 2: to them, And that's part of my role is helping translate, 353 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:54,640 Speaker 2: like what is actually going on here for you too? 354 00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:57,200 Speaker 1: When they've had one of those fits and it happens 355 00:18:57,359 --> 00:19:00,280 Speaker 1: and they come down off of it. I see a 356 00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:04,119 Speaker 1: lot of people talk about how they struggle with reconnection 357 00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:08,200 Speaker 1: after a fight because it does often result in like 358 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:11,720 Speaker 1: some resentment. There's feelings and stuff there. So how do 359 00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:15,960 Speaker 1: couple start to reconnect after maybe it's high conflict, maybe 360 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:18,200 Speaker 1: it's just a big fight, Maybe it's just the same 361 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:19,840 Speaker 1: fight that keeps happening over and over. 362 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:23,240 Speaker 2: Yes, that's such a critical skill, and I think it's 363 00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:26,560 Speaker 2: one of those where everybody wants their partner to make 364 00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:29,720 Speaker 2: the first to move. Everybody wants the other person to 365 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:33,680 Speaker 2: come to them and be really patient and offer repair 366 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:36,919 Speaker 2: and be the one to reach out that alive branch. 367 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:40,760 Speaker 2: And I often tell people that it's like a radical 368 00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:44,080 Speaker 2: accountability where you are both going to jump first. You're 369 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:45,879 Speaker 2: both going to move first, and you're going to keep 370 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:48,640 Speaker 2: your eyes on your own work and focus on how 371 00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:51,720 Speaker 2: can I repair, not like what repair do I deserve 372 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:55,000 Speaker 2: from my partner? Because while people are in that mindset 373 00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:57,960 Speaker 2: of like, Okay, I'm waiting come on over repair with me, 374 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:02,439 Speaker 2: you're very prickly and unlikely to actually receive any repair. 375 00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:05,159 Speaker 2: So I encourage people to just think what can I 376 00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:08,720 Speaker 2: personally do, like, what is in my power to reconnect 377 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:11,960 Speaker 2: and repair? Setting aside for a moment the ways I 378 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:14,320 Speaker 2: think that I've been injured in this conflict and we 379 00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:16,280 Speaker 2: can come back to them. But in order to get 380 00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:20,040 Speaker 2: back to some degree of connection, it's often necessary for 381 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:23,840 Speaker 2: both people to receive some amount of kind of like, hey, 382 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:27,560 Speaker 2: I'm here, I'm sorry that sucked. Can we hug? Can 383 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:28,800 Speaker 2: we just breathe together? 384 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:32,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's often hard to say that. To your point, 385 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:36,320 Speaker 1: we do get prickly after fights. We feel very strong 386 00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:38,480 Speaker 1: in how we feel. I think that's human nature. We 387 00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:41,800 Speaker 1: just really want to defend how we felt and why 388 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:46,639 Speaker 1: we felt that way. But that's an even harder moment 389 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:48,520 Speaker 1: in your life to look at someone and say I 390 00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:50,240 Speaker 1: just fought with you, but also I really need a 391 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:50,840 Speaker 1: hug from you. 392 00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:54,480 Speaker 2: It is, and you know for some people it might 393 00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:59,120 Speaker 2: not be a hug, but like just being able to acknowledge, like, hey, 394 00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:01,840 Speaker 2: I have a role in I see you. My goal 395 00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:03,880 Speaker 2: is for us to not be fighting anymore. And then 396 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:06,520 Speaker 2: on the flip side, it's really important when your partner 397 00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:09,399 Speaker 2: offers that alive branch to not knock it out of 398 00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:11,360 Speaker 2: their hand, which is something I see happening a lot 399 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:14,560 Speaker 2: where people are so caught up in like the self 400 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:18,960 Speaker 2: righteousness of I was wronged in this, and you said 401 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:22,840 Speaker 2: this to me and it was terrible that they reject 402 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:25,280 Speaker 2: attempts that their partners make to repair with them. 403 00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:28,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, and rejection is already hard enough as it is, 404 00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:31,040 Speaker 1: let alone rejection when you're feeling that way and vulnerable 405 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:31,800 Speaker 1: after something like. 406 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:35,359 Speaker 2: That happens exactly so then they pull back and they're 407 00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:38,040 Speaker 2: not likely to offer it again in that moment, and 408 00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:41,960 Speaker 2: you aren't getting the repair you needed, you're not really connected. 409 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:42,880 Speaker 2: Everybody loses. 410 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:46,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, to your point, it is very much a critical skill, 411 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:49,239 Speaker 1: and there's a lot of critical skills and relationships that 412 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:51,879 Speaker 1: we just don't learn about until especially until you're in 413 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:54,840 Speaker 1: them and you're going through them. There's so many things 414 00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:57,360 Speaker 1: that you can't be taught until. 415 00:21:57,160 --> 00:21:59,359 Speaker 2: You're in it. And it's so true. 416 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:02,600 Speaker 1: This is one of those to what you're saying. 417 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:05,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's such a funny thing. I think even if 418 00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:08,760 Speaker 2: you had the best role models in the world for relationships, 419 00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:12,040 Speaker 2: there is a practical just living it is different. And 420 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:14,720 Speaker 2: then the reality is a lot of people don't feel 421 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:17,480 Speaker 2: that they received good role modeling around what a healthy 422 00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:20,880 Speaker 2: relationship looks like, and that ranges from My parents seem 423 00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:23,320 Speaker 2: to have a great marriage, but they never fought, and 424 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:25,600 Speaker 2: so I just didn't see what does conflict look like 425 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:28,560 Speaker 2: all the way to my parents had terrible, out of 426 00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:30,840 Speaker 2: control fights, and I never wanted that to happen in 427 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:31,200 Speaker 2: my life. 428 00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:37,800 Speaker 1: Again, you just mentioned that, and it made me think 429 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:40,919 Speaker 1: of something because I've heard this from people. I've heard 430 00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:43,880 Speaker 1: it from guys i've dated, I've heard it from girlfriends. 431 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:48,200 Speaker 1: When you are in a home that there's zero conflict, 432 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:52,639 Speaker 1: is that a good thing or is that hurtful to you? 433 00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:54,800 Speaker 1: Understanding what conflict looks like? 434 00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:58,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't recommend that the goal be zero conflict 435 00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:03,640 Speaker 2: because ultimately, conflict is like a primal form of human connection. 436 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:07,679 Speaker 2: It's inevitable. And so what zero conflict usually means is 437 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:10,840 Speaker 2: that the conflict is happening, but it's happening underneath the surface. 438 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:15,040 Speaker 2: There are bad vibes. There is weird energy that comes up, 439 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:18,000 Speaker 2: and kids are super perceptive to that. And so even 440 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:21,960 Speaker 2: if no one's fighting, nothing has been said, often people 441 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:24,200 Speaker 2: will be like, yeah, I knew mom was mad because 442 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:28,359 Speaker 2: she just like silently made dinner or whatever. Even if 443 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:30,800 Speaker 2: there aren't bad vibes. Though, you still, to your point, 444 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:34,680 Speaker 2: aren't getting those skills in that modeling of like rupture 445 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:37,399 Speaker 2: and repair, Which going back to this idea of like 446 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:41,439 Speaker 2: what is a realistic relationship. That is a realistic relationship 447 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:45,119 Speaker 2: is that we will have many ruptures and negative interactions 448 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:48,000 Speaker 2: and then need the tools to repair them. It starts 449 00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:49,960 Speaker 2: at the beginning of life and it never goes away. 450 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:51,560 Speaker 2: And so if you never see that, it really is 451 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:52,280 Speaker 2: a disservice. 452 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:55,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, very much so. I saw you also mention in 453 00:23:56,000 --> 00:24:00,239 Speaker 1: your social media content that high conflict couples tend to 454 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:05,879 Speaker 1: fight more about relationship dynamics than they do about concrete topics. 455 00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:07,040 Speaker 1: What exactly does that mean? 456 00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:09,879 Speaker 2: I know it's abstract. It's one of those that if 457 00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:11,879 Speaker 2: you're a high conflict couple and you heard it, probably 458 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:14,119 Speaker 2: your brain just like lit up, and if you're not, 459 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:18,240 Speaker 2: you're like, what now? More like I guess typical couples, 460 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:21,440 Speaker 2: although I think being high conflict is relatively common, But 461 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:23,640 Speaker 2: more typical couples, the couples that a lot of therapies 462 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:28,320 Speaker 2: are built for, actually have fights about thematic issues. So 463 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:30,960 Speaker 2: division of labor is a really common one. Sex is 464 00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:33,720 Speaker 2: really common one. Money, And of course all those topics 465 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:37,280 Speaker 2: have underlying themes and meanings. It's not just the surface level. 466 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:40,840 Speaker 2: But if we solved the problem on the surface, we 467 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:44,160 Speaker 2: might actually solve the problem. The conflict would go away. 468 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:48,080 Speaker 2: If magically wave your wand division of labor is just solved, 469 00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:52,240 Speaker 2: problem solved. For high conflict couples, they might talk about 470 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:56,040 Speaker 2: those topics in their fights, although interestingly, very often they 471 00:24:56,080 --> 00:25:00,280 Speaker 2: don't actually have conflict. Couples typically fight about things like 472 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:03,000 Speaker 2: how close are we? What does it feel like in 473 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:06,080 Speaker 2: our relationship? Do I feel you slip away from me 474 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:08,800 Speaker 2: and I don't like it? Do I feel you trying 475 00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:11,400 Speaker 2: to pull me closer and I don't like it? These 476 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:15,760 Speaker 2: kind of like internal psychological dynamics are often what high 477 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:17,640 Speaker 2: conflict couples are fighting about. 478 00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:20,440 Speaker 1: Oh wow, I'm glad you explain that, because I saw 479 00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:23,520 Speaker 1: that and I was so curious. But it makes sense 480 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:27,320 Speaker 1: because just like we have to get to root causes 481 00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:30,680 Speaker 1: about our things and our health, like to your point, 482 00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:31,959 Speaker 1: this is the root cause. 483 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:36,639 Speaker 2: That's exactly it. And it's part of why therapy can 484 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:40,959 Speaker 2: be unsatisfying for some high conflict couples, because there's all 485 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:44,239 Speaker 2: this brainstorming and troubleshooting of like, Okay, what can we 486 00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:47,280 Speaker 2: do differently about money or sex or division of labor, 487 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:50,680 Speaker 2: and systems are tried or new communication skills are tried, 488 00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:53,200 Speaker 2: and ultimately, at the end of the day, no one 489 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:56,199 Speaker 2: has named, hey, you're actually not fighting about any of 490 00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:59,600 Speaker 2: that you're fighting about, like what does it mean to 491 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:02,560 Speaker 2: be in relationship? What can I expect of you? It's 492 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:07,280 Speaker 2: very philosophical, high conflict couples are often really smart and 493 00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:11,040 Speaker 2: get caught in these logic traps with each other where 494 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:13,960 Speaker 2: it's like, what is accountability? What does it mean to 495 00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:17,400 Speaker 2: validate another person? Can we expect that of each other? 496 00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:18,280 Speaker 2: It gets deep. 497 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:21,520 Speaker 1: Oh I love deep stuff though. I think that's awesome, 498 00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:24,359 Speaker 1: So there is a beautiful side to that, but it 499 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:27,199 Speaker 1: does also bring on the other side, which is conflict. 500 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:31,879 Speaker 1: When I imagine these couples, when they go through a 501 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:35,680 Speaker 1: lot of these experiences, will then have negative thoughts feelings 502 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:38,320 Speaker 1: about their partner. Is that normal? Is that even just 503 00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:42,560 Speaker 1: normal for regular couples to have negative thoughts or bad 504 00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:43,879 Speaker 1: feelings about their partner. 505 00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:47,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, this is so normal for all couples. I will 506 00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:50,080 Speaker 2: die on this hill and I do so pretty regularly 507 00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:53,800 Speaker 2: on social media and stir up some feelings about it. 508 00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:58,240 Speaker 2: Everybody has so many thoughts every single day. And the 509 00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:01,360 Speaker 2: interesting thing about thoughts is we're not direct control of them. 510 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:05,640 Speaker 2: We can't actually prevent a thought, and research shows actually 511 00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:08,840 Speaker 2: that trying to prevent a specific thought Stopping a thought 512 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:12,840 Speaker 2: makes that thought more powerful, It makes it more intrusive, 513 00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:15,160 Speaker 2: It makes it feel more like, Oh, I can't get 514 00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:17,600 Speaker 2: it out of my head. And so the most healthy 515 00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:20,320 Speaker 2: way to handle thoughts is to either just let them happen, 516 00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:23,040 Speaker 2: like oh, that was a thought anyway, moving on, or 517 00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:25,639 Speaker 2: to evaluate them like is that really true? Is that 518 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:29,120 Speaker 2: actually factual? Or am I just really mad right now? 519 00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:31,960 Speaker 2: And so I'm having the thought like that example from earlier, 520 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:34,239 Speaker 2: maybe someone's having the thought like my partner doesn't care 521 00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:37,320 Speaker 2: about me, they're really mad right now? If we pull back, 522 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:40,280 Speaker 2: is that actually true? Is there actually evidence that your 523 00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:41,879 Speaker 2: partner doesn't care about you? Or is that just the 524 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:43,560 Speaker 2: thing you were thinking in the moment and we can 525 00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:46,480 Speaker 2: let it go. And I think a lot of people 526 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:50,399 Speaker 2: find this very scary to imagine that you might have 527 00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:53,520 Speaker 2: negative thoughts about your partner. I think, more importantly, your 528 00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:56,040 Speaker 2: partner might have negative thoughts about you. And for many 529 00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:59,960 Speaker 2: people that is so scary. It's really scary to imagine, 530 00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:03,320 Speaker 2: what if my partner has a fleeting negative thought about me, 531 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:06,199 Speaker 2: does that mean we shouldn't be together? And there's just 532 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:08,640 Speaker 2: a real fear of what that would mean. And I'm 533 00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:12,160 Speaker 2: always trying to help normalize, like this is just part 534 00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:13,879 Speaker 2: of having a brain. We don't have to make it 535 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:14,479 Speaker 2: so scary. 536 00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:18,400 Speaker 1: Well, and oftentimes too, when people have these negative thoughts, 537 00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:21,120 Speaker 1: they're not acting on them. Correct, It's just in there 538 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:24,320 Speaker 1: and it's existing, and something just like pops through and 539 00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:26,080 Speaker 1: then it goes out the other year. 540 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:29,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. I had a real that blew up a 541 00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:32,000 Speaker 2: little bit in which one of the lines from it 542 00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:33,800 Speaker 2: that was like, these are normal thoughts. And there were 543 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:35,720 Speaker 2: all these examples, and there were a few that people 544 00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:39,160 Speaker 2: freaked out about a little bit more, and one of 545 00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:42,120 Speaker 2: them was like, there's some things about an ex that 546 00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:45,239 Speaker 2: I miss And there was a lot of like if 547 00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:47,920 Speaker 2: you're thinking about your ex, you're in the wrong relationship, 548 00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:50,720 Speaker 2: like get out. And I really think that comes down 549 00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:53,720 Speaker 2: to just that fear, like what if my partner ever 550 00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:55,960 Speaker 2: thinks about their ex Ooh scary. I don't want to 551 00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:58,360 Speaker 2: think about that. That makes me feel really insecure. So 552 00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:00,520 Speaker 2: I'm going to say that's like evil and and no 553 00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:03,640 Speaker 2: one should have those thoughts, when in reality, I'm pretty 554 00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:07,560 Speaker 2: sure that pretty much everybody has had that type of thought. 555 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:10,240 Speaker 2: Like I think that pretty much everybody has had a 556 00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:13,200 Speaker 2: fleeting thought of like, oh I missed that one quality. 557 00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:15,280 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, but they're sucked in this other way. Anyway, 558 00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:17,880 Speaker 2: moving on, it doesn't have to be so scary. 559 00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:21,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you for normalizing that. I think it allows 560 00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:24,560 Speaker 1: us to be human a little bit more, and getting 561 00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:26,840 Speaker 1: the chance to continue to be human is always a 562 00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:30,200 Speaker 1: better experience than not and thinking more robots. 563 00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:33,920 Speaker 2: And like scolding ourselves for not being robots and scolding 564 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:36,240 Speaker 2: other people. I don't think that works out very well. 565 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:39,440 Speaker 1: No, it does not. I did have two of these 566 00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:43,120 Speaker 1: questions from some listeners from the podcast that I wanted 567 00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:46,000 Speaker 1: to ask. I thought they were important. Is choosing not 568 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:48,920 Speaker 1: to have kids worth ending a very strong and healthy 569 00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:52,000 Speaker 1: relationship together where you've been together for several years? 570 00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:56,800 Speaker 2: Oh gosh, it's such a hard question. So I think 571 00:29:57,520 --> 00:29:59,760 Speaker 2: this is going to depend a lot on the strength 572 00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:03,360 Speaker 2: of the desire for having kids. So one partner wants 573 00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:06,680 Speaker 2: kids and the other doesn't. This is one of relatively 574 00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:11,200 Speaker 2: few like non compromised situations, right Like, there's not a 575 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:14,440 Speaker 2: compromise number of kids. One kid is not a compromise 576 00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:17,680 Speaker 2: between zero and two, right, Like, you really should want 577 00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:19,480 Speaker 2: to have a child in order to have a child. 578 00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:24,120 Speaker 2: Of course, many people, perhaps most new parents or parents 579 00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:27,080 Speaker 2: to be have some degree of ambivalence. But ambivalence isn't 580 00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:28,960 Speaker 2: the same as like, no, I know I don't want kids. 581 00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:32,760 Speaker 2: I think that if truly somebody believes it's part of 582 00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:35,360 Speaker 2: my life's path to at least try and have children, 583 00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:39,040 Speaker 2: I want to do that. That's a very reasonable compatibility 584 00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:43,440 Speaker 2: issue to end a relationship over. If, however, there's a 585 00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:46,080 Speaker 2: great deal of turmoil over that and a big tension 586 00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:48,120 Speaker 2: like I don't know, maybe I want to be with 587 00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:51,040 Speaker 2: this person instead, that might be a sign that the 588 00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:54,000 Speaker 2: desire for kids is perhaps less than the desire for 589 00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:56,720 Speaker 2: this relationship, And so you can weigh how much you 590 00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:58,240 Speaker 2: want these different things. 591 00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:01,000 Speaker 1: That was a good way to sh share that because 592 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:03,680 Speaker 1: it hits on both levels of like, yes, there's this 593 00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:09,000 Speaker 1: real lack of compatibility, but also sometimes life takes you 594 00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:12,280 Speaker 1: on a different path than you anticipated. You dream up 595 00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:14,040 Speaker 1: this whole idea in your head, much to how we 596 00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:17,280 Speaker 1: were discussing things in movies, and you have these experiences 597 00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:19,760 Speaker 1: and you get older and life goes a different way 598 00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:22,480 Speaker 1: than what you anticipated, and I think that's okay. 599 00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:26,480 Speaker 2: It is that's such a good point. I think most 600 00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:30,360 Speaker 2: people have this like almost movie script of what they 601 00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:32,880 Speaker 2: want their life to look like. And the reality is 602 00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:35,200 Speaker 2: you could leave that relationship and not be able to 603 00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:37,720 Speaker 2: have kids. You could not find a different partner that 604 00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:40,560 Speaker 2: you liked. So you know, all kinds of things could happen. 605 00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:42,600 Speaker 2: You could be with that person, they could decide that 606 00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:46,120 Speaker 2: you want to have kids together and really have trouble conceiving. 607 00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:49,479 Speaker 2: There's just we don't actually know what's next, and so 608 00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:51,360 Speaker 2: you really have to just make the best choice that 609 00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:55,560 Speaker 2: you can given your values and your goals and knowing 610 00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:58,440 Speaker 2: that those change. That's something I do talk a lot 611 00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:00,600 Speaker 2: about is that even if you thank you and your 612 00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:04,720 Speaker 2: partner incredibly compatible, when you meet fifteen years later, you 613 00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:07,880 Speaker 2: might be really different. Your interests might have changed, you 614 00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:11,240 Speaker 2: might have changed in more fundamental ways, And so allowing 615 00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:14,440 Speaker 2: that space to grow and evolve together is really important. 616 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:17,360 Speaker 2: And sometimes that does result in the end of a relationship, 617 00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:18,200 Speaker 2: and that's okay too. 618 00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:21,560 Speaker 1: Growing and evolving is really tough, especially when you fall 619 00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:23,280 Speaker 1: in love with someone and you have this idea of 620 00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:25,440 Speaker 1: what it's supposed to continue to look like. But it 621 00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:29,840 Speaker 1: is so important when you Before I ask this other question, 622 00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:34,400 Speaker 1: I wanted to ask about this I often feel like 623 00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:38,959 Speaker 1: people forget that when you enter into a relationship, especially 624 00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:42,880 Speaker 1: one that you're hoping lasts forever for life, you're supposed 625 00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:46,600 Speaker 1: to grow and evolve together, like you're supposed to communicate 626 00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:50,120 Speaker 1: those experiences and really go through life together even if 627 00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:53,800 Speaker 1: you're changing. But you have to do that with this 628 00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:57,600 Speaker 1: person in mind in a way. And I often feel 629 00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:01,920 Speaker 1: like I've met people and I've seen people experience where 630 00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:04,720 Speaker 1: somebody evolves and then they get mad at the other 631 00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:08,600 Speaker 1: person for evolving, yeah, or vice versa. 632 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:11,400 Speaker 2: It's a huge thing. I think there's a few layers 633 00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:14,280 Speaker 2: of that. One is like, yeah, we can't expect our 634 00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:19,600 Speaker 2: partners to be carved in stone, and any trait or 635 00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:22,080 Speaker 2: aspect of them that you liked it could change. There's 636 00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:24,480 Speaker 2: certain things that tend to be stable, but there's a 637 00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:26,800 Speaker 2: lot that can change over our lifetime. And if one 638 00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:30,160 Speaker 2: person is evolving and the other person is scared of 639 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:34,480 Speaker 2: that evolution, that can be really painful in a relationship 640 00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:37,600 Speaker 2: and stifling. And then the other thing that just feels 641 00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:41,960 Speaker 2: relevant to this is I think sometimes people want less 642 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:45,200 Speaker 2: of like an evolving, dynamic partnership and more of an 643 00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:48,840 Speaker 2: archetype of a partner like a here's this person, and 644 00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:51,000 Speaker 2: I have a story I think about with this that 645 00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:53,080 Speaker 2: when I was a kid and I was learning how 646 00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:55,360 Speaker 2: to read, my parents were having a hard time getting 647 00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:58,680 Speaker 2: me to be interested in reading on my own, and 648 00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:01,640 Speaker 2: so they got me these books that they thought would 649 00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:04,240 Speaker 2: really entice me. And they were like princessy little girl 650 00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:07,360 Speaker 2: books that I was really enthralled by, like, oh, okay, 651 00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:09,719 Speaker 2: I'm willing to read for this. And in one of 652 00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:12,360 Speaker 2: them there was a whole story about a big sister 653 00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:14,880 Speaker 2: getting married, and the whole story is little girl's following 654 00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:18,040 Speaker 2: along and as the flower girl, and the whole story 655 00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:21,200 Speaker 2: goes into great detail about the dress and the flowers 656 00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:24,000 Speaker 2: and the cake, and only on the very last page 657 00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:26,839 Speaker 2: do you see the groom's head just from the back 658 00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:29,040 Speaker 2: as they drive away in the car. He's just like, 659 00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:32,680 Speaker 2: not even part of the picture. He's an archetype. He's 660 00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:36,720 Speaker 2: just a placeholder, really, And I think all genders. People 661 00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:38,879 Speaker 2: can do that to their partners. They can be like, oh, 662 00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:41,239 Speaker 2: thank god, I've found you. I've looked for you. You 663 00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:44,080 Speaker 2: are my person, and slot them into their vision of 664 00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:47,440 Speaker 2: a life without actually clarifying do you want these things? 665 00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:49,759 Speaker 2: Do you think you're always going to want them and 666 00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:52,240 Speaker 2: clarifying like seeing them as a whole person. 667 00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:55,400 Speaker 1: Yes, I'm really glad that you shared that part. It 668 00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:57,759 Speaker 1: totally spun off. It was not my initial direction, but 669 00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:00,440 Speaker 1: I'm just glad we got there because it is really 670 00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:03,000 Speaker 1: important to see people as whole people. That's the purpose 671 00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:06,000 Speaker 1: of a partnership. It's an importance of being in a relationship. 672 00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:09,520 Speaker 1: You're not doing it for the aesthetic. You're doing it 673 00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:11,920 Speaker 1: because you want to feel love and you want to 674 00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:15,799 Speaker 1: feel good next to a human being. Like I do, 675 00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:19,040 Speaker 1: think there's lost in that. It's no different than people 676 00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:21,560 Speaker 1: they get a dog, maybe it's a golden retriever because 677 00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:24,120 Speaker 1: of the aesthetic it looks good. That's the white pick 678 00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:27,200 Speaker 1: at fins. I have the golden retriever. I got the tall, 679 00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:29,920 Speaker 1: dark and handsome. It's everything the way that it looks 680 00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:31,960 Speaker 1: instead of how it feels. 681 00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:34,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's exactly it. 682 00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:36,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, this is the other question that came in, and 683 00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:39,279 Speaker 1: I thought it was good, especially given that you are 684 00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:43,520 Speaker 1: a sex therapist. How important is having sex with your 685 00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:48,000 Speaker 1: partner struggling with some confidence. There's some overweight stuff happening, 686 00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:51,200 Speaker 1: and this person just really wants some advice on how 687 00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:53,279 Speaker 1: important it is and maybe how to navigate that. 688 00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:55,799 Speaker 2: Oh well, my heart goes out to them. I think 689 00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:59,480 Speaker 2: that's such a commonplace that people, maybe especially women, end 690 00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:04,280 Speaker 2: up in and sex is important for most couples. Obviously, 691 00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:07,479 Speaker 2: not all people's preferences are different, and so I would 692 00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:10,080 Speaker 2: first ask that question, like is this something that's important 693 00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:11,600 Speaker 2: to both of us? And if the answer is no, 694 00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:13,960 Speaker 2: then great, don't worry about it. But if it is 695 00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:16,279 Speaker 2: important to you and your partner, if you have a 696 00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:20,960 Speaker 2: relationship that includes sex and value sex, one of the 697 00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:23,760 Speaker 2: things that is most helpful is to flip the idea 698 00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:26,480 Speaker 2: of like how much sex does my partner or my 699 00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:30,520 Speaker 2: relationship need in order to not like wither because I 700 00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:33,600 Speaker 2: think that's often especially women, how are like conditioned to 701 00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:36,239 Speaker 2: think about it? Is almost like putting money in a 702 00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:39,239 Speaker 2: slot machine, like I need to put my deposit in 703 00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:42,640 Speaker 2: otherwise we're not going to have enough. And that's just 704 00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:46,879 Speaker 2: not a healthy way to experience your own sexuality. So 705 00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:49,480 Speaker 2: I would redirect back to the self in this case 706 00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:51,840 Speaker 2: and think about, like, what do I want out of 707 00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:55,160 Speaker 2: my sex life? If I envisioned a sex life where 708 00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:59,440 Speaker 2: I felt happy and healthy and excited and confident what 709 00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:02,120 Speaker 2: would that love like? And this is another example of 710 00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:05,960 Speaker 2: setting aside the aesthetic, because like I promise, no amount 711 00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:09,560 Speaker 2: of weight lost or specific body type is going to 712 00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:14,320 Speaker 2: change that internal experience of thinking about sex as something 713 00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:16,440 Speaker 2: that you have to do for your relationship, that you 714 00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:19,080 Speaker 2: have to do for your partner. That's like an inside 715 00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:22,480 Speaker 2: job issue, not the way that you look. And people 716 00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:25,080 Speaker 2: with all different kinds of bodies, including those that are 717 00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:29,200 Speaker 2: considered very like ideal, have those thoughts and that experience 718 00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:31,520 Speaker 2: of themselves as like I just have to do this 719 00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:33,759 Speaker 2: because this is what we're supposed to do. So I 720 00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:36,560 Speaker 2: would reconnect like what do you want out of sex 721 00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:40,040 Speaker 2: and how do you build from the inside out that 722 00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:42,759 Speaker 2: type of sex life rather than thinking about it in 723 00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:44,439 Speaker 2: terms of like how much do I have to put 724 00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:47,360 Speaker 2: in before my relationship dies? Yeah? 725 00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:49,799 Speaker 1: Wow, when you compared it to the slot machine, I 726 00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:54,279 Speaker 1: feel like that's a very universal experience, just in the 727 00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:57,640 Speaker 1: ways that we've been taught and understood relationships and how 728 00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:03,560 Speaker 1: that dynamic, especially intimacy works within relationships. So you've given 729 00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:06,800 Speaker 1: me so many things to just my brain is like, Okay, Morgan, 730 00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:10,640 Speaker 1: we gotta maybe rethink look at restructuring try some different things. 731 00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:13,399 Speaker 1: But this is why it's so important to have conversations 732 00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:16,720 Speaker 1: like this, because without someone like you, with your knowledge 733 00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:19,360 Speaker 1: and expertise, we would never know any different. 734 00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:23,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so true. You don't know what you haven't 735 00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:27,320 Speaker 2: talked about, and certain subjects are so taboo. Really, conflict 736 00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:30,040 Speaker 2: is pretty taboo. Sex is taboo, right, so you might 737 00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:32,880 Speaker 2: not feel like you have any place to go and 738 00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:35,320 Speaker 2: talk about, like, hey, this is what's happening? Is this normal? 739 00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:36,239 Speaker 2: What do I do about it? 740 00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:39,880 Speaker 1: Well, Doctor Marina, thank you so much. All of your 741 00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:42,640 Speaker 1: words of wisdom and just your knowledge on this topic 742 00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:44,759 Speaker 1: are really important and I appreciate you being here. 743 00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:45,680 Speaker 2: Thank you. 744 00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:55,799 Speaker 1: I've been holding on to this interview for a while now. 745 00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:58,240 Speaker 1: I love talking with doctor Marina and talking about something 746 00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:01,000 Speaker 1: especially that so many people are dealing with. But I 747 00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:02,960 Speaker 1: was holding on to it until it was the right time, 748 00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:06,279 Speaker 1: and that time is now coming. So my birthday is 749 00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:09,600 Speaker 1: coming up, as is my boyfriend's, and we decided a 750 00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:12,320 Speaker 1: fun gift would be to record our first episodes together. 751 00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:15,200 Speaker 1: So next week you will officially get to meet my 752 00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:18,759 Speaker 1: boyfriend and we have lots to share. So subscribe to 753 00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:21,840 Speaker 1: the podcast and you won't miss it. I'm really happy 754 00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:23,360 Speaker 1: that you're here, and I can't wait to yap with 755 00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:26,600 Speaker 1: y'all next week and introduce you to a very special 756 00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:27,560 Speaker 1: guy in my life.