Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to another edition of the Odd Lots Podcast.
Speaker 1: I'm Joe Wis and so Tracy. We're doing one of
Speaker 1: our first series of the Odd Lots Podcast, one of
Speaker 1: our first sort of sub series where we're going to
Speaker 1: do a string of thematic episodes. Wait it, I mean
Speaker 1: it is the first, right, it's our very right. I
Speaker 1: don't know why I said one of the first. I
Speaker 1: think that our first thematic. You need to play it
Speaker 1: up more, Joe. This is a momentous occasion exactly, this
Speaker 1: huge new endeavor we're taking on a three part series
Speaker 1: on money, markets and crime. Pause for effect. Okay, I'm excited,
Speaker 1: me too. So normally we talked about markets and finance
Speaker 1: and money in the sort of the legal world, the
Speaker 1: regulated world, but of course all of these same phenomena exists,
Speaker 1: uh in the in the illegal world and off of
Speaker 1: exchanges and outside of official official industries. Well more than that, right,
Speaker 1: because you could argue that in the absence of legitimacy,
Speaker 1: money is kind of the thing that drives crime and
Speaker 1: makes it happen and makes the criminal world go round,
Speaker 1: so to speak. Right, you could you could probably argue
Speaker 1: that for our first episode, we're going to talk about
Speaker 1: what maybe the what might be considered to be the
Speaker 1: largest criminal entity in the world right now, and that
Speaker 1: is uh Isis or the Islamic State. Okay, well, I
Speaker 1: mean this is a topic um that's pretty close to
Speaker 1: home for me right now, which is um abi dabi
Speaker 1: and obviously a topic of great concern. It's interesting to
Speaker 1: come at it from a monetary angle. What exactly are
Speaker 1: we going to be talking about there? Well, I mean,
Speaker 1: so they've established the new geopolitical it today or it's
Speaker 1: a few years old by now, but it's always sort
Speaker 1: of I've always been curious, like how money really works,
Speaker 1: because any new geospatial entity, just like any other nation state,
Speaker 1: has to kind of you know, have a currency and
Speaker 1: taxes and all that kind of stuff. And so I
Speaker 1: think we should talk about how how it all really works.
Speaker 1: So with us today in studio here is Graham Wood.
Speaker 1: He is a lecturer at Yale, he's at the Atlantic
Speaker 1: and he has a new book out titled The Way
Speaker 1: of the Strangers Encounters with the Islamic State, and I
Speaker 1: recently read it and it was phenomenal. So I wanted
Speaker 1: to bring Graham in. So Graham, thanks for joining us.
Speaker 1: Good to be here, Joe Tracy. So your book is now,
Speaker 1: just to be clear, your book is not even really
Speaker 1: about the operation of the Islamic State specifically. What you
Speaker 1: did is you went around the world. Well, describe what
Speaker 1: your book is like you do. My book is an
Speaker 1: exploration into the mental world of the Islamic State. And
Speaker 1: you know, there's physical territory that they control, and then
Speaker 1: beyond that, they have this network of supporters that's worldwide.
Speaker 1: That's in the Caliphate itself, Syria and Iraq, but that's
Speaker 1: also in places like Tokyo, Melbourne, the United States, Western Europe,
Speaker 1: and it's it's it's a whole vision of what the
Speaker 1: universe is, what the best way to organize a human
Speaker 1: society is. And this of course includes how to actually
Speaker 1: administer a state in that includes aspects of finance and
Speaker 1: economic policy that people were willing to describe to me
Speaker 1: in pretty great detail. So one thing I've learned from
Speaker 1: living in the Middle East is um. The Islamic faith
Speaker 1: is open to significant interpretation. And while a lot of
Speaker 1: it is based on the Quran, um a lot of
Speaker 1: it also revolves around people trying to interpret the Koran
Speaker 1: and figure out how to apply it to modern life.
Speaker 1: So I guess my question is, if you think that
Speaker 1: the Islamic State is fundamentalist when it comes to islam, um,
Speaker 1: how are they interpreting Islamic treatment of monetary systems. Well,
Speaker 1: in some ways, the Islamic states view of finance of
Speaker 1: economic policy is pretty orthodox within Islam. Like you have
Speaker 1: a burgeoning Islamic finance industry that tries to get around,
Speaker 1: for example, the charging of interest, which is called ribba
Speaker 1: in Islam and traditionally has has not been permitted, and
Speaker 1: the Islamic State, of course it outlaws that it falls
Speaker 1: into line with kind of orthodox readings of of what's
Speaker 1: permitted as tools or instruments of of of economic policy.
Speaker 1: So that's that's part of what you see there. You
Speaker 1: also see, though, a much broader adoption of some of
Speaker 1: the early practices of Islam as the Islamic State reads it,
Speaker 1: and that includes things like getting rid of fiat currency,
Speaker 1: getting rid of a whole range of of other economic
Speaker 1: instruments that that exist and that are used in a
Speaker 1: place like even Abu Dhabi. But that the Islamic State,
Speaker 1: because that their pretensions to purity uh has tried to
Speaker 1: get rid of what do they see, you know, they
Speaker 1: tried to practice extreme fealty to the sort of letter
Speaker 1: of the law. They go back to, you know how
Speaker 1: the profit lived. Where in the Koran or elsewhere is
Speaker 1: a fiat currency outlawed? Yeah, so the profit is said
Speaker 1: to have have said this, that that that's the form
Speaker 1: of currency that that we should follow. That was what
Speaker 1: was instituted during I believe his own lifetime was of
Speaker 1: a gold dinar, and then discussion of silver and copper
Speaker 1: as well. So that's a perfect example where the Islamic
Speaker 1: State they have this kind of holier than now attitude,
Speaker 1: and so you can actually see the videos that they've
Speaker 1: put out in their propaganda saying, hey, look at this
Speaker 1: beautiful new coin that that we have minted, and that
Speaker 1: that once we're really up and running, this is the
Speaker 1: only thing we're going to use. I think Tracy was
Speaker 1: just watching one of these videos, weren't you. Yeah, So
Speaker 1: I quickly googled one of these um right before we know,
Speaker 1: I should say, I've been doing my research for many,
Speaker 1: many weeks, and I came upon this video ages ago,
Speaker 1: and I looked at it and uh interpreted it and
Speaker 1: analyzed it for many many hours Isis has amazing production
Speaker 1: values on their videos. Um, that's one thing. And they
Speaker 1: put out a video about money essentially, and there's all
Speaker 1: these references to Bretton Woods and the Federal Reserve System. Um,
Speaker 1: and yes, there are pictures of some very very shiny
Speaker 1: new coins and it's essentially a propaganda video for their money,
Speaker 1: which is pretty amazing. Yeah, from my perspective, I watched
Speaker 1: these videos all the time, and you know, first of all,
Speaker 1: it's nice to have one that has no bloodshed in it.
Speaker 1: And this is one of them where that they take
Speaker 1: the coins and you know it's it's a gold, shiny coin,
Speaker 1: So you get good fighting, you get a good camera,
Speaker 1: and you've got quite the image of a guy at
Speaker 1: a bureau of change, you know, in the middle of
Speaker 1: the Islamic state, fondling this new coin and then talking
Speaker 1: about how, wow, no longer do I have to deal
Speaker 1: in paper currency with pictures of the White House on it. Instead,
Speaker 1: we've got something that that is purely Islamic, gets back
Speaker 1: to the prophetic model. That's the vision that they try
Speaker 1: to put forth with with everything that they do. And
Speaker 1: in this case, you know that they actually do have
Speaker 1: historical precedent and scripture that they turned back to. It's
Speaker 1: you know, it looks looks good. The fact that they
Speaker 1: don't actually use the din r for for very many,
Speaker 1: you know, day to day transactions in the Islamic State
Speaker 1: is beside the point that the theory is there, and
Speaker 1: this is again the mental world of the Caliphate is
Speaker 1: thinking that whether they're actually doing it, they're on the
Speaker 1: right track. Well, so I was just going to ask
Speaker 1: about that, what is the gap between the their idealized
Speaker 1: vision of a system based on these beautiful gold dinars
Speaker 1: and what they're actually using day to day most people
Speaker 1: to say buy things, Yeah, I think day to day
Speaker 1: you'd find them using local currencies. You find Iraqi dinars,
Speaker 1: Syrian pounds, and then you would find U S dollars
Speaker 1: probably used used as well. Now there is some use
Speaker 1: of the Iraqi diner or excuse me, the Islamic State
Speaker 1: dinar as well, when we know about that because of
Speaker 1: some recently revealed documents that prohibit the the export of
Speaker 1: the dinar, the Islamic State dinar. So apparently they're out
Speaker 1: there in circulation and some coin enthusiasts somewhere is going
Speaker 1: to get one of these and it's gonna be really valuable,
Speaker 1: but what they're actually using in day to day practice
Speaker 1: is probably something that actually resembles a fairly normal economic system.
Speaker 1: And I should just point out that's really interesting because
Speaker 1: um monetary regimes throughout history that have been based on
Speaker 1: gold have always had this export problem that they want
Speaker 1: the currency to circulate within the economy, but there's the
Speaker 1: problem of why not just take the gold and get
Speaker 1: it out of the economy. So kind of fascinating that
Speaker 1: they're experiencing something on that or trying to prohibit something
Speaker 1: that regimes have dealt with for hundreds of years on
Speaker 1: this and this really shows that the Islamic state exists
Speaker 1: in the world economy despite itself. You know, they are
Speaker 1: subject to the same pressures, the same inflows and outflows
Speaker 1: of capital. And yeah, the rules of of the rules
Speaker 1: of economics, they do not cease to apply just because
Speaker 1: you want to live back in the seventh century. Well,
Speaker 1: I was going to ask, so, how much is the
Speaker 1: hatred of fiat currency down to whatever um the prophet
Speaker 1: says in the Kuran versus how much of it is
Speaker 1: down to the idea that fiat currency ultimately is associated
Speaker 1: with our modern monetary system and associated um with Western economies,
Speaker 1: which presumably isis Um is not a big fan of
Speaker 1: In my experience, you could ask people for the reasons
Speaker 1: for for favoring one policy or another, and they'll always
Speaker 1: start with the principled reason. They say, well, this is
Speaker 1: what the prophet said we have to do, so we'll
Speaker 1: do it. And then they'll go to the more instrumental
Speaker 1: arguments for it, and they've got a whole slew of
Speaker 1: kind of warmed over economic conspiracy theories, plus crankish views
Speaker 1: of of how international finance does and should work, and
Speaker 1: they'll start invoking those two. So you'd find people who
Speaker 1: have almost uh um, maybe a fringe e kind of
Speaker 1: occupy a view of the world and say, look, finance
Speaker 1: is a corrupt system to such a degree that we
Speaker 1: need to to burn it away, and that's luckily we
Speaker 1: have this prophetic model where we can do that. And
Speaker 1: so they think that if we get the kind of
Speaker 1: vampiric finance industry off of our backs by getting rid
Speaker 1: of interest, by getting rid of of fiat currency, then
Speaker 1: the economy will be unleashed and we can have a
Speaker 1: big raft of social programs that will be funded by
Speaker 1: the large s It's interesting how an I don't want
Speaker 1: people to inter with this the wrong way, but how
Speaker 1: people with UH fringe viewpoints across the sort of spectrum
Speaker 1: often arrived and similar solutions. And you profile one of
Speaker 1: the people you profile or a couple of you profile
Speaker 1: in Texas, and I think the wife at least in
Speaker 1: this couple was UH Ron Paul fan. And I'm not
Speaker 1: saying that Ron Paul fans are the same as Isis,
Speaker 1: but you have and your stretch. I don't because someone's
Speaker 1: gonna get really angry and say that I compared Ron
Speaker 1: Paul aderans to Isis. But you know, there ends up
Speaker 1: being this sort of ideological overlap. And monetary policy is
Speaker 1: a great example. Yeah, it's actually not just the wife
Speaker 1: but the husband as well, who is American from Plano,
Speaker 1: Texas and is the most important American in the Islamic
Speaker 1: State today. Both of them huge Ron Paul fans. And yes,
Speaker 1: I too would like to say clearly is not a
Speaker 1: member of the Islamic State, and most Islamic State members
Speaker 1: are not fans of Ron Paul, and most Ron Paul
Speaker 1: fans are not members of the Islamic State. Yes, those
Speaker 1: of you who wish to disregard my caveats here. I
Speaker 1: look forward to your mail. Now. Yes, their view of
Speaker 1: the world economy was one that had kind of conspiratorial
Speaker 1: aspects to it, even without support for the Islamic State.
Speaker 1: But they saw, for political reasons as well as economic reasons,
Speaker 1: kind of vindication of Ron Paul's ideas in the rise
Speaker 1: of the Islamic State. She, by the way, is not
Speaker 1: part of the Islamic State. She left Syria with their kids.
Speaker 1: And yeah, the dad's still over there and is churning
Speaker 1: out mostly non economic writing about the Islamic State. But
Speaker 1: he's out there and working hard. Isn't it amazing that?
Speaker 1: I mean, on that note, isn't it amazing that decades
Speaker 1: after um, we've been living with paper currency and you know,
Speaker 1: we had the introduction of Bretton woods and modern monetary
Speaker 1: systems and all that, Like, we still seem to have
Speaker 1: a significant portion of the population that remains obsessed with
Speaker 1: gold and silver, these things that they can touch that
Speaker 1: they feel have intrinsic value of some sort. It's just like,
Speaker 1: I mean, it kind of speaks to thousands and thousands
Speaker 1: of years of human nature. I guess. Yeah, this American
Speaker 1: that I've named his name is Yahia Abu Hassan in
Speaker 1: my book. It's the first time his identity has been revealed.
Speaker 1: The comparison that I often reached to um to previous
Speaker 1: American traders is as a pound poet. Yeahhia Abu Hassan
Speaker 1: runs a lot of poetry as well, and as repound.
Speaker 1: You know, he was a huge efficionado of of economic
Speaker 1: crank theories, major Douglass theory of social credit views of
Speaker 1: You can even see it in his poetry talking about
Speaker 1: gold and the Wonders of Gold. It seems to be
Speaker 1: a recurring disease that American fascists fall for where they
Speaker 1: find some utopia which which flatters their their negative views
Speaker 1: of the economic industry that they that they saw back
Speaker 1: in their home country, and then they fall for it
Speaker 1: completely and then go um in the case of Yaha Hassan,
Speaker 1: probably to his death. I want to switch gears, but
Speaker 1: before we do, I want to ask one more questions,
Speaker 1: specifically about the money and that is isis has to
Speaker 1: interface with the non isis world. There they are not
Speaker 1: completely self sufficient done I believe food and energy? They
Speaker 1: sell oil. How did those transactions work? Like? How does
Speaker 1: ices ultimately, you know, go to market and sell oil
Speaker 1: or whatever they have to sell to get money from
Speaker 1: the outside world for imports. What are the mechanisms there?
Speaker 1: You know, I have to guess in some of these
Speaker 1: cases because the transactions are black market transactions and transactions.
Speaker 1: If you're buying money for buying buying oil rather from
Speaker 1: isis than you have to do this under the table.
Speaker 1: So I'm guessing it's largely bags of cash to be
Speaker 1: quite honest. Um, but you're right. The the interface between
Speaker 1: the Islamic state and the rest of the world is
Speaker 1: the only way that this group can survive. They need
Speaker 1: money and goods to flow in and out, and that's
Speaker 1: actually where they most of their cash. I mean, it's
Speaker 1: I think that there's a misconception actually that most of
Speaker 1: it's coming from just selling oil. It's mostly just people
Speaker 1: having privately their own transactions. And then isis getting its
Speaker 1: tax skimming off the top of wealth and income. How
Speaker 1: does the tax system work? Yeah, So they have again
Speaker 1: a scripturally ordained view of how attacks should be imposed.
Speaker 1: They believe that there is charity that has to be
Speaker 1: given by all Muslims who make a certain um beyond
Speaker 1: a certain cut off. Point, so they take that it's
Speaker 1: called zakat, and then beyond that there is a low
Speaker 1: I think it's I think it's single digit percentage tax
Speaker 1: of wealth and income that they take beyond that, and
Speaker 1: then there's certain categories of wealth that again because of
Speaker 1: scriptural requirement, they take. So um, there's a whole category
Speaker 1: called kanima, which translates to spoils. And if you're fighting
Speaker 1: on behalf of the Islamic stay eight and you know,
Speaker 1: you shoot someone and then you go grab his stuff
Speaker 1: that belongs to you. But there is a tax called
Speaker 1: the homes, which means tax that reverts to the state.
Speaker 1: This includes even if you're enslaving women sex slaves. If
Speaker 1: you get ten of them, then guess what two of
Speaker 1: them go as to property of the state, and they
Speaker 1: can be sold or disposed of as the caliph desires.
Speaker 1: So one of the themes that we talk about, in
Speaker 1: addition to UH finance and markets that we've hit on
Speaker 1: several times on this podcast, it's just all the different
Speaker 1: ways that the Internet is changing society and profound changing
Speaker 1: the world profoundly, whether it's how we organize ourselves politically,
Speaker 1: whether it's the collapse of experts UM. People have obviously
Speaker 1: talked a lot about online recruiting, people discovering the Islamic
Speaker 1: State UM through the Internet, traveling to the Islamic State
Speaker 1: based on information they find. What is UM explained to
Speaker 1: us sort of what is the role of the internet
Speaker 1: in allowing isis to exist? I think first we have
Speaker 1: to say what it's not. There is this misconception that
Speaker 1: the Islamic State, because it has so much successful propaganda,
Speaker 1: slick propaganda on the Internet, that that's the main way
Speaker 1: it gets people. It's not quite like that. In almost
Speaker 1: every case, the Islamic State gets people through person to
Speaker 1: person interaction. You know, it doesn't seem to be enough
Speaker 1: to just say on the Internet that we are the
Speaker 1: fulfillment of Islam. Your buddy has to say it and
Speaker 1: then refer you to the proper website. So that's usually
Speaker 1: what the the Internet is used for is once you've
Speaker 1: had the person to person contact, then a resource that
Speaker 1: you can go to and have all your fears of
Speaker 1: discomfort when you get there allayed by images of people
Speaker 1: having a good time, and then have your ideology UM
Speaker 1: corrected when it's when it's wrong. So you know what
Speaker 1: what what you have to what you have to believe.
Speaker 1: The one thing that is really different though with the
Speaker 1: Islamic State and its use of the Internet is that
Speaker 1: it's able to reach women. So unlike al Qaeda, which
Speaker 1: was looking for basically a military force, a military vanguard,
Speaker 1: Islamic State wants to create a utopia, and you can't
Speaker 1: have a utopia that's that's all men. So they are
Speaker 1: able to reach out to conservative women who in other
Speaker 1: cases would not be able to have, you know, interactions
Speaker 1: outside the house that would allow easy recruitment and get
Speaker 1: people from the female sex to to come over. So
Speaker 1: that's that's like of the recruits right there, and it's
Speaker 1: a demographic that the Internet alone has allowed them to reach.
Speaker 1: So one of Joe's um pet theories, which I'm a
Speaker 1: fan of as well, is the idea that the rise
Speaker 1: of the Internet is ultimately something that will undermine the
Speaker 1: nations state. Um, how does that theory apply to isis
Speaker 1: Because like, in some ways it's a supernational organization, but
Speaker 1: in other ways it's clearly an organization that is trying
Speaker 1: to set up an actual caliphate in the Middle East
Speaker 1: and an actual state. The differences between the physical caliphate
Speaker 1: and then the mental caliphate are are I think really
Speaker 1: important to spell out. And for some people who have
Speaker 1: been attracted to the Islamic state, they've spent a long
Speaker 1: time on the Internet in a kind of fantasy world
Speaker 1: that remained just that until there actually was a concrete
Speaker 1: caliphate to go to. So the Internet allowed a community
Speaker 1: to flourish that was separated by geography beforehand, but that
Speaker 1: allowed people to have a sense of belonging. And then
Speaker 1: you know, you've got this vacuum of power because of
Speaker 1: the Syrian Civil War, because of miss government in the
Speaker 1: sunny areas of Iraq, and then the Internet is made
Speaker 1: flesh in the form of the caliphate. So it's it's
Speaker 1: been extremely important. The other aspect I think that that
Speaker 1: the Internet has really remade in this terrain is Muslim's
Speaker 1: view of scriptural interpretation. So there's this long tradition called um. Well,
Speaker 1: there's this concept called dad, the ability of a Muslim
Speaker 1: cleric to create law, to find to derive law from scripture,
Speaker 1: and this is something that in the past you'd have
Speaker 1: to go to Mecca and Medina and study with great
Speaker 1: Muslim scholars and get us their seal of approval before
Speaker 1: you can undertake this this dangerous process of deriving law
Speaker 1: from from scripture. Now the Internet closes that gap, and
Speaker 1: it creates a huge threat to the authority of those
Speaker 1: former imams scholars who you'd have to go to visit.
Speaker 1: So when I would talk to ISIS supporters about theology,
Speaker 1: they would almost invariably end our conversation by saying, if
Speaker 1: you want to know more, consult Shake YouTube or shake Google.
Speaker 1: You know, just just ask around online and you'll find people.
Speaker 1: The people you find if you just consult shake Google
Speaker 1: about jihad are not the mainstream scholars who are in
Speaker 1: Saudi Arabia urging obedience to the Saudi King. They're not
Speaker 1: the American ima who you know, have kind of roles
Speaker 1: advising the White House. Instead, they're the Jihadis. So they're
Speaker 1: the outlacky types, and that's because the Internet has allowed
Speaker 1: those voices to rise. So this is very similar in
Speaker 1: a way to what happened with the Reformation and the
Speaker 1: printing press. I recently, Elizabeth Eisenstein's a historian, wrote a
Speaker 1: book about the role of the printing press, and I
Speaker 1: think everyone can into it. You know, Martin Luther, he
Speaker 1: nailed his theses to the wall and then it's spread around.
Speaker 1: So the sort of like the viral aspect of a
Speaker 1: new communication thing. It's kind of obvious. Everyone can get
Speaker 1: the role, everyone can understand how the new medium allowed
Speaker 1: it to spread. But the other point that she made
Speaker 1: is that prior to Martin Luther, the printing press allowed
Speaker 1: people to start to read the Bible themselves, see the
Speaker 1: hypocrisys and the errors and the you know, the compromises
Speaker 1: made by their you know, the theologians of the time.
Speaker 1: And so even before there was a criticism, even before
Speaker 1: there was a new idea that was spread the foundations
Speaker 1: of the old idea, the existing establishment was starting to
Speaker 1: crumble thanks to the printing press. And so it sounds
Speaker 1: very similar. Even without the idea of something new, like
Speaker 1: the Islamic State, you still have people learning about say
Speaker 1: things they don't like that Saudi Arabia does, or various
Speaker 1: leaders in the Muslim world. They could start to see
Speaker 1: the cracks. You got it exactly right with this comparison
Speaker 1: to the Reformation, because if you look at what preceded
Speaker 1: the Islamic State in the twenty years before it, there
Speaker 1: was no shortage of of accusations of having been co
Speaker 1: opted to existing scholars, they would say, the Islamic States
Speaker 1: scholars would would have would have been saying for a
Speaker 1: long time, Look you are Toady's of major Muslim powers,
Speaker 1: of say a Lazar University in Cairo, and they'd say, look,
Speaker 1: how can we trust you. Our dollars are the ones
Speaker 1: who have been in prison for their beliefs. They have
Speaker 1: not been paid off. Your scholars are the ones who
Speaker 1: are in palaces. Obviously we're the ones who have integrity.
Speaker 1: And so yeah, there is a kind of pre existing
Speaker 1: rot that the Islamic State was able to point to
Speaker 1: to undercut the authority of those who opposed them. All right,
Speaker 1: Graham Wood, the book is the Way of the Strangers
Speaker 1: Encounters with the Islamic State. I have to say it
Speaker 1: is a must read. I tore through it and I
Speaker 1: really appreciate you coming on. Thank you so Tracy. How
Speaker 1: do you think that went for the start of our
Speaker 1: money Markets in Crime series? Uh? Yeah, I mean I'm excited.
Speaker 1: As you said in the intro, isis is probably one
Speaker 1: of the biggest criminal organizations in the world. So I'm
Speaker 1: struggling to see how we're going to top this one. Um.
Speaker 1: But on the plus side, like for me, it's really interesting.
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, the Fiat versus gold stuff is always interesting.
Speaker 1: But the thing that you know, I'm obsessed with is
Speaker 1: the idea of how the internet has been changing the world.
Speaker 1: And I hate to echo what Graham said, but you're
Speaker 1: exactly right when you refer to the Reformation and the
Speaker 1: printing press, because those are the things that essentially started
Speaker 1: enabling every person two filter their own information and to
Speaker 1: select their own information that they were interested in. And
Speaker 1: that was probably the beginning of the Balkanization of media
Speaker 1: that is currently being carried out to extremes. I don't wanna,
Speaker 1: you know, shoot my own horn, So let's go back
Speaker 1: to the money thing real quickly, I think, but thank you.
Speaker 1: The point about the law against exporting the Islamic coins
Speaker 1: I found interesting because if you read monetary history, and
Speaker 1: we have you have a guest coming up in a
Speaker 1: few weeks, we're gonna be talking about the monetary history
Speaker 1: of the French Revolution. If you read any monetary history,
Speaker 1: every regime always deals with this issue of if the
Speaker 1: money is intrinsically valuable, why leave it in the country,
Speaker 1: And so at some point is Graham noted some coin
Speaker 1: collectors somewhere is going to get one of these coins
Speaker 1: and it's going to be a fascinating an object of fascination.
Speaker 1: But just this idea that the sort of trying to
Speaker 1: reinvent a new currency or a new system ends up
Speaker 1: with the economic problems of the old systems that we've
Speaker 1: for millennia, I think is hundreds of years at least,
Speaker 1: it's pretty fascinating. Yeah. Well, I mean the obvious point
Speaker 1: on that is because they're trying to invent a monetary
Speaker 1: system that is from the Middle Ages, and they're quite
Speaker 1: explicit about that, aren't they. Yeah, and it's never gonna
Speaker 1: go away. You know, this idea of utopian or what
Speaker 1: others might say crankish monetary policy views that if we
Speaker 1: could just have all money be based on hard currency,
Speaker 1: or if we could get rid of the banks, if
Speaker 1: we get rid of the interest rates, there are all
Speaker 1: these these ideas will probably never go away, and they're
Speaker 1: just going to continue to have adherents in various contexts,
Speaker 1: in various places around the world. That's what continues to
Speaker 1: amaze me is that um gold and you know, shiny
Speaker 1: metals seem to have this hold over the collective imagination
Speaker 1: and it just it doesn't seem to loosen. Like everywhere
Speaker 1: you go in the world and you encounter people who
Speaker 1: think that paper currency is in some way fake and
Speaker 1: we should replace everything with gold. Um, it's really amazing.
Speaker 1: And you've written about this, right joke, like just the
Speaker 1: the sway that gold seems to have over people. You know,
Speaker 1: at some point, my view is we just got to
Speaker 1: accept it, like we can argue forever that oh, like
Speaker 1: it doesn't make any sense. It's a barbarous relic as
Speaker 1: Knees called it, but it's not going away. Like that's
Speaker 1: just the fact that gold is not going away. So
Speaker 1: and just sort of accepted. All right, Well, this has
Speaker 1: been another edition of the Odd Law Podcast. I'm Joe Wisenthal.
Speaker 1: You can follow me on Twitter at the Stalwart and
Speaker 1: I'm Tracy Halloway. I'm on Twitter at Tracy Alloway. And
Speaker 1: you can follow Graham on Twitter at g car g
Speaker 1: c a W. Please tune in next week when we
Speaker 1: will be continuing our money, Markets and Crime series. Uh,
Speaker 1: we have a lot of bad behavior and economics and
Speaker 1: finance to get through. Thanks for listening.