WEBVTT - 63: This Is How Monetary Policy Works in The Islamic State 0:00:08.920 --> 0:00:13.119 Hello, and welcome to another edition of the Odd Lots Podcast. 0:00:13.200 --> 0:00:18.200 I'm Joe Wis and so Tracy. We're doing one of 0:00:18.200 --> 0:00:21.479 our first series of the Odd Lots Podcast, one of 0:00:21.480 --> 0:00:24.840 our first sort of sub series where we're going to 0:00:24.920 --> 0:00:28.400 do a string of thematic episodes. Wait it, I mean 0:00:28.480 --> 0:00:31.040 it is the first, right, it's our very right. I 0:00:31.080 --> 0:00:32.400 don't know why I said one of the first. I 0:00:32.440 --> 0:00:35.199 think that our first thematic. You need to play it 0:00:35.240 --> 0:00:39.080 up more, Joe. This is a momentous occasion exactly, this 0:00:39.280 --> 0:00:42.440 huge new endeavor we're taking on a three part series 0:00:43.080 --> 0:00:50.640 on money, markets and crime. Pause for effect. Okay, I'm excited, 0:00:51.000 --> 0:00:53.720 me too. So normally we talked about markets and finance 0:00:53.760 --> 0:00:56.520 and money in the sort of the legal world, the 0:00:56.600 --> 0:01:00.000 regulated world, but of course all of these same phenomena exists, 0:01:00.360 --> 0:01:04.040 uh in the in the illegal world and off of 0:01:04.120 --> 0:01:09.880 exchanges and outside of official official industries. Well more than that, right, 0:01:09.920 --> 0:01:14.000 because you could argue that in the absence of legitimacy, 0:01:14.760 --> 0:01:18.120 money is kind of the thing that drives crime and 0:01:18.319 --> 0:01:22.160 makes it happen and makes the criminal world go round, 0:01:22.200 --> 0:01:25.880 so to speak. Right, you could you could probably argue 0:01:25.920 --> 0:01:28.600 that for our first episode, we're going to talk about 0:01:28.680 --> 0:01:32.360 what maybe the what might be considered to be the 0:01:32.480 --> 0:01:36.319 largest criminal entity in the world right now, and that 0:01:36.560 --> 0:01:40.679 is uh Isis or the Islamic State. Okay, well, I 0:01:40.720 --> 0:01:44.959 mean this is a topic um that's pretty close to 0:01:45.000 --> 0:01:47.440 home for me right now, which is um abi dabi 0:01:47.440 --> 0:01:51.640 and obviously a topic of great concern. It's interesting to 0:01:51.680 --> 0:01:54.880 come at it from a monetary angle. What exactly are 0:01:54.920 --> 0:01:57.120 we going to be talking about there? Well, I mean, 0:01:57.240 --> 0:02:01.040 so they've established the new geopolitical it today or it's 0:02:01.240 --> 0:02:03.680 a few years old by now, but it's always sort 0:02:03.720 --> 0:02:06.520 of I've always been curious, like how money really works, 0:02:06.520 --> 0:02:12.000 because any new geospatial entity, just like any other nation state, 0:02:12.080 --> 0:02:14.720 has to kind of you know, have a currency and 0:02:14.840 --> 0:02:18.000 taxes and all that kind of stuff. And so I 0:02:18.040 --> 0:02:20.760 think we should talk about how how it all really works. 0:02:30.440 --> 0:02:34.320 So with us today in studio here is Graham Wood. 0:02:34.600 --> 0:02:38.240 He is a lecturer at Yale, he's at the Atlantic 0:02:38.360 --> 0:02:41.600 and he has a new book out titled The Way 0:02:41.720 --> 0:02:45.880 of the Strangers Encounters with the Islamic State, and I 0:02:46.000 --> 0:02:48.720 recently read it and it was phenomenal. So I wanted 0:02:48.720 --> 0:02:51.680 to bring Graham in. So Graham, thanks for joining us. 0:02:51.720 --> 0:02:55.520 Good to be here, Joe Tracy. So your book is now, 0:02:55.639 --> 0:02:58.760 just to be clear, your book is not even really 0:02:58.800 --> 0:03:02.840 about the operation of the Islamic State specifically. What you 0:03:02.919 --> 0:03:05.760 did is you went around the world. Well, describe what 0:03:05.800 --> 0:03:07.880 your book is like you do. My book is an 0:03:07.880 --> 0:03:10.880 exploration into the mental world of the Islamic State. And 0:03:10.919 --> 0:03:13.880 you know, there's physical territory that they control, and then 0:03:14.080 --> 0:03:17.160 beyond that, they have this network of supporters that's worldwide. 0:03:17.160 --> 0:03:20.120 That's in the Caliphate itself, Syria and Iraq, but that's 0:03:20.120 --> 0:03:24.120 also in places like Tokyo, Melbourne, the United States, Western Europe, 0:03:24.560 --> 0:03:27.440 and it's it's it's a whole vision of what the 0:03:27.560 --> 0:03:29.960 universe is, what the best way to organize a human 0:03:29.960 --> 0:03:33.720 society is. And this of course includes how to actually 0:03:33.720 --> 0:03:36.880 administer a state in that includes aspects of finance and 0:03:36.960 --> 0:03:40.080 economic policy that people were willing to describe to me 0:03:40.080 --> 0:03:43.320 in pretty great detail. So one thing I've learned from 0:03:43.560 --> 0:03:48.080 living in the Middle East is um. The Islamic faith 0:03:48.320 --> 0:03:52.600 is open to significant interpretation. And while a lot of 0:03:52.600 --> 0:03:55.000 it is based on the Quran, um a lot of 0:03:55.040 --> 0:03:58.920 it also revolves around people trying to interpret the Koran 0:03:59.320 --> 0:04:01.800 and figure out how to apply it to modern life. 0:04:02.160 --> 0:04:04.640 So I guess my question is, if you think that 0:04:04.880 --> 0:04:09.240 the Islamic State is fundamentalist when it comes to islam, um, 0:04:09.280 --> 0:04:14.680 how are they interpreting Islamic treatment of monetary systems. Well, 0:04:14.840 --> 0:04:18.120 in some ways, the Islamic states view of finance of 0:04:18.200 --> 0:04:22.760 economic policy is pretty orthodox within Islam. Like you have 0:04:23.440 --> 0:04:27.440 a burgeoning Islamic finance industry that tries to get around, 0:04:27.560 --> 0:04:30.360 for example, the charging of interest, which is called ribba 0:04:30.640 --> 0:04:33.719 in Islam and traditionally has has not been permitted, and 0:04:33.760 --> 0:04:36.880 the Islamic State, of course it outlaws that it falls 0:04:36.880 --> 0:04:40.719 into line with kind of orthodox readings of of what's 0:04:40.720 --> 0:04:47.000 permitted as tools or instruments of of of economic policy. 0:04:47.320 --> 0:04:49.599 So that's that's part of what you see there. You 0:04:49.680 --> 0:04:55.440 also see, though, a much broader adoption of some of 0:04:55.440 --> 0:04:58.159 the early practices of Islam as the Islamic State reads it, 0:04:58.200 --> 0:05:01.440 and that includes things like getting rid of fiat currency, 0:05:01.920 --> 0:05:05.760 getting rid of a whole range of of other economic 0:05:05.800 --> 0:05:08.240 instruments that that exist and that are used in a 0:05:08.240 --> 0:05:11.320 place like even Abu Dhabi. But that the Islamic State, 0:05:11.360 --> 0:05:15.160 because that their pretensions to purity uh has tried to 0:05:15.160 --> 0:05:17.560 get rid of what do they see, you know, they 0:05:17.600 --> 0:05:21.880 tried to practice extreme fealty to the sort of letter 0:05:22.160 --> 0:05:24.600 of the law. They go back to, you know how 0:05:24.640 --> 0:05:28.159 the profit lived. Where in the Koran or elsewhere is 0:05:28.200 --> 0:05:32.640 a fiat currency outlawed? Yeah, so the profit is said 0:05:32.680 --> 0:05:34.839 to have have said this, that that that's the form 0:05:34.839 --> 0:05:37.440 of currency that that we should follow. That was what 0:05:37.480 --> 0:05:40.160 was instituted during I believe his own lifetime was of 0:05:40.200 --> 0:05:43.400 a gold dinar, and then discussion of silver and copper 0:05:43.440 --> 0:05:46.400 as well. So that's a perfect example where the Islamic 0:05:46.440 --> 0:05:49.320 State they have this kind of holier than now attitude, 0:05:49.760 --> 0:05:51.600 and so you can actually see the videos that they've 0:05:51.640 --> 0:05:54.360 put out in their propaganda saying, hey, look at this 0:05:54.400 --> 0:05:57.320 beautiful new coin that that we have minted, and that 0:05:57.320 --> 0:05:59.920 that once we're really up and running, this is the 0:06:00.080 --> 0:06:01.880 only thing we're going to use. I think Tracy was 0:06:01.920 --> 0:06:04.480 just watching one of these videos, weren't you. Yeah, So 0:06:04.520 --> 0:06:08.360 I quickly googled one of these um right before we know, 0:06:08.480 --> 0:06:10.960 I should say, I've been doing my research for many, 0:06:11.000 --> 0:06:14.880 many weeks, and I came upon this video ages ago, 0:06:15.040 --> 0:06:18.760 and I looked at it and uh interpreted it and 0:06:18.960 --> 0:06:23.440 analyzed it for many many hours Isis has amazing production 0:06:23.560 --> 0:06:26.920 values on their videos. Um, that's one thing. And they 0:06:26.960 --> 0:06:31.280 put out a video about money essentially, and there's all 0:06:31.320 --> 0:06:36.120 these references to Bretton Woods and the Federal Reserve System. Um, 0:06:36.160 --> 0:06:39.440 and yes, there are pictures of some very very shiny 0:06:39.640 --> 0:06:44.400 new coins and it's essentially a propaganda video for their money, 0:06:44.440 --> 0:06:48.080 which is pretty amazing. Yeah, from my perspective, I watched 0:06:48.080 --> 0:06:50.760 these videos all the time, and you know, first of all, 0:06:50.800 --> 0:06:52.800 it's nice to have one that has no bloodshed in it. 0:06:52.920 --> 0:06:55.160 And this is one of them where that they take 0:06:55.200 --> 0:06:58.680 the coins and you know it's it's a gold, shiny coin, 0:06:58.839 --> 0:07:01.159 So you get good fighting, you get a good camera, 0:07:01.520 --> 0:07:04.280 and you've got quite the image of a guy at 0:07:04.720 --> 0:07:06.760 a bureau of change, you know, in the middle of 0:07:06.760 --> 0:07:09.200 the Islamic state, fondling this new coin and then talking 0:07:09.240 --> 0:07:12.600 about how, wow, no longer do I have to deal 0:07:12.840 --> 0:07:16.280 in paper currency with pictures of the White House on it. Instead, 0:07:16.480 --> 0:07:19.360 we've got something that that is purely Islamic, gets back 0:07:19.360 --> 0:07:21.680 to the prophetic model. That's the vision that they try 0:07:21.720 --> 0:07:24.960 to put forth with with everything that they do. And 0:07:25.040 --> 0:07:27.640 in this case, you know that they actually do have 0:07:27.960 --> 0:07:31.760 historical precedent and scripture that they turned back to. It's 0:07:31.800 --> 0:07:34.000 you know, it looks looks good. The fact that they 0:07:34.160 --> 0:07:37.000 don't actually use the din r for for very many, 0:07:37.280 --> 0:07:39.560 you know, day to day transactions in the Islamic State 0:07:40.000 --> 0:07:41.960 is beside the point that the theory is there, and 0:07:42.000 --> 0:07:44.280 this is again the mental world of the Caliphate is 0:07:44.840 --> 0:07:47.520 thinking that whether they're actually doing it, they're on the 0:07:47.600 --> 0:07:50.200 right track. Well, so I was just going to ask 0:07:50.320 --> 0:07:54.520 about that, what is the gap between the their idealized 0:07:54.640 --> 0:07:58.400 vision of a system based on these beautiful gold dinars 0:07:58.440 --> 0:08:01.320 and what they're actually using day to day most people 0:08:01.760 --> 0:08:04.680 to say buy things, Yeah, I think day to day 0:08:04.720 --> 0:08:07.840 you'd find them using local currencies. You find Iraqi dinars, 0:08:08.040 --> 0:08:11.080 Syrian pounds, and then you would find U S dollars 0:08:11.120 --> 0:08:15.320 probably used used as well. Now there is some use 0:08:15.360 --> 0:08:17.720 of the Iraqi diner or excuse me, the Islamic State 0:08:17.760 --> 0:08:20.760 dinar as well, when we know about that because of 0:08:20.840 --> 0:08:25.400 some recently revealed documents that prohibit the the export of 0:08:25.560 --> 0:08:29.640 the dinar, the Islamic State dinar. So apparently they're out 0:08:29.680 --> 0:08:32.960 there in circulation and some coin enthusiasts somewhere is going 0:08:33.000 --> 0:08:35.000 to get one of these and it's gonna be really valuable, 0:08:35.559 --> 0:08:38.120 but what they're actually using in day to day practice 0:08:38.160 --> 0:08:42.400 is probably something that actually resembles a fairly normal economic system. 0:08:42.440 --> 0:08:44.840 And I should just point out that's really interesting because 0:08:45.160 --> 0:08:49.360 um monetary regimes throughout history that have been based on 0:08:49.520 --> 0:08:52.800 gold have always had this export problem that they want 0:08:52.880 --> 0:08:56.800 the currency to circulate within the economy, but there's the 0:08:56.840 --> 0:08:58.960 problem of why not just take the gold and get 0:08:58.960 --> 0:09:01.280 it out of the economy. So kind of fascinating that 0:09:01.320 --> 0:09:05.520 they're experiencing something on that or trying to prohibit something 0:09:06.320 --> 0:09:09.120 that regimes have dealt with for hundreds of years on 0:09:09.160 --> 0:09:11.959 this and this really shows that the Islamic state exists 0:09:12.040 --> 0:09:14.920 in the world economy despite itself. You know, they are 0:09:14.960 --> 0:09:17.760 subject to the same pressures, the same inflows and outflows 0:09:17.760 --> 0:09:23.000 of capital. And yeah, the rules of of the rules 0:09:23.000 --> 0:09:26.000 of economics, they do not cease to apply just because 0:09:26.040 --> 0:09:28.680 you want to live back in the seventh century. Well, 0:09:28.720 --> 0:09:31.360 I was going to ask, so, how much is the 0:09:31.480 --> 0:09:36.840 hatred of fiat currency down to whatever um the prophet 0:09:36.880 --> 0:09:39.200 says in the Kuran versus how much of it is 0:09:39.240 --> 0:09:43.199 down to the idea that fiat currency ultimately is associated 0:09:43.240 --> 0:09:48.400 with our modern monetary system and associated um with Western economies, 0:09:48.520 --> 0:09:51.679 which presumably isis Um is not a big fan of 0:09:52.520 --> 0:09:55.280 In my experience, you could ask people for the reasons 0:09:55.280 --> 0:09:58.440 for for favoring one policy or another, and they'll always 0:09:58.480 --> 0:10:00.520 start with the principled reason. They say, well, this is 0:10:00.520 --> 0:10:02.800 what the prophet said we have to do, so we'll 0:10:02.800 --> 0:10:05.839 do it. And then they'll go to the more instrumental 0:10:06.040 --> 0:10:09.000 arguments for it, and they've got a whole slew of 0:10:09.520 --> 0:10:14.400 kind of warmed over economic conspiracy theories, plus crankish views 0:10:14.480 --> 0:10:17.960 of of how international finance does and should work, and 0:10:18.000 --> 0:10:22.000 they'll start invoking those two. So you'd find people who 0:10:22.080 --> 0:10:26.280 have almost uh um, maybe a fringe e kind of 0:10:26.320 --> 0:10:28.840 occupy a view of the world and say, look, finance 0:10:29.160 --> 0:10:32.400 is a corrupt system to such a degree that we 0:10:32.440 --> 0:10:34.920 need to to burn it away, and that's luckily we 0:10:34.960 --> 0:10:37.200 have this prophetic model where we can do that. And 0:10:37.240 --> 0:10:40.440 so they think that if we get the kind of 0:10:40.640 --> 0:10:44.560 vampiric finance industry off of our backs by getting rid 0:10:44.600 --> 0:10:49.000 of interest, by getting rid of of fiat currency, then 0:10:49.040 --> 0:10:51.520 the economy will be unleashed and we can have a 0:10:51.559 --> 0:10:54.680 big raft of social programs that will be funded by 0:10:54.720 --> 0:10:59.319 the large s It's interesting how an I don't want 0:10:59.320 --> 0:11:01.840 people to inter with this the wrong way, but how 0:11:01.920 --> 0:11:06.800 people with UH fringe viewpoints across the sort of spectrum 0:11:07.120 --> 0:11:11.240 often arrived and similar solutions. And you profile one of 0:11:11.280 --> 0:11:14.400 the people you profile or a couple of you profile 0:11:14.480 --> 0:11:17.440 in Texas, and I think the wife at least in 0:11:17.520 --> 0:11:21.400 this couple was UH Ron Paul fan. And I'm not 0:11:21.480 --> 0:11:23.880 saying that Ron Paul fans are the same as Isis, 0:11:23.920 --> 0:11:26.839 but you have and your stretch. I don't because someone's 0:11:26.880 --> 0:11:29.360 gonna get really angry and say that I compared Ron 0:11:29.400 --> 0:11:32.160 Paul aderans to Isis. But you know, there ends up 0:11:32.160 --> 0:11:35.439 being this sort of ideological overlap. And monetary policy is 0:11:35.480 --> 0:11:38.280 a great example. Yeah, it's actually not just the wife 0:11:38.320 --> 0:11:40.520 but the husband as well, who is American from Plano, 0:11:40.679 --> 0:11:43.800 Texas and is the most important American in the Islamic 0:11:43.840 --> 0:11:47.480 State today. Both of them huge Ron Paul fans. And yes, 0:11:47.640 --> 0:11:51.560 I too would like to say clearly is not a 0:11:51.640 --> 0:11:54.840 member of the Islamic State, and most Islamic State members 0:11:54.840 --> 0:11:56.960 are not fans of Ron Paul, and most Ron Paul 0:11:57.000 --> 0:12:00.280 fans are not members of the Islamic State. Yes, those 0:12:00.320 --> 0:12:02.839 of you who wish to disregard my caveats here. I 0:12:02.880 --> 0:12:06.640 look forward to your mail. Now. Yes, their view of 0:12:07.160 --> 0:12:10.120 the world economy was one that had kind of conspiratorial 0:12:10.120 --> 0:12:13.720 aspects to it, even without support for the Islamic State. 0:12:13.760 --> 0:12:17.560 But they saw, for political reasons as well as economic reasons, 0:12:17.840 --> 0:12:20.760 kind of vindication of Ron Paul's ideas in the rise 0:12:20.760 --> 0:12:23.000 of the Islamic State. She, by the way, is not 0:12:23.480 --> 0:12:27.000 part of the Islamic State. She left Syria with their kids. 0:12:27.559 --> 0:12:30.880 And yeah, the dad's still over there and is churning 0:12:30.880 --> 0:12:34.160 out mostly non economic writing about the Islamic State. But 0:12:34.240 --> 0:12:37.600 he's out there and working hard. Isn't it amazing that? 0:12:38.120 --> 0:12:41.319 I mean, on that note, isn't it amazing that decades 0:12:41.520 --> 0:12:46.000 after um, we've been living with paper currency and you know, 0:12:46.040 --> 0:12:48.880 we had the introduction of Bretton woods and modern monetary 0:12:48.880 --> 0:12:51.720 systems and all that, Like, we still seem to have 0:12:52.080 --> 0:12:57.679 a significant portion of the population that remains obsessed with 0:12:58.000 --> 0:13:01.880 gold and silver, these things that they can touch that 0:13:01.960 --> 0:13:05.679 they feel have intrinsic value of some sort. It's just like, 0:13:06.200 --> 0:13:09.000 I mean, it kind of speaks to thousands and thousands 0:13:09.000 --> 0:13:12.880 of years of human nature. I guess. Yeah, this American 0:13:12.760 --> 0:13:15.840 that I've named his name is Yahia Abu Hassan in 0:13:15.920 --> 0:13:19.240 my book. It's the first time his identity has been revealed. 0:13:19.679 --> 0:13:23.480 The comparison that I often reached to um to previous 0:13:23.600 --> 0:13:27.559 American traders is as a pound poet. Yeahhia Abu Hassan 0:13:27.640 --> 0:13:30.200 runs a lot of poetry as well, and as repound. 0:13:30.320 --> 0:13:35.000 You know, he was a huge efficionado of of economic 0:13:35.120 --> 0:13:39.760 crank theories, major Douglass theory of social credit views of 0:13:40.120 --> 0:13:42.439 You can even see it in his poetry talking about 0:13:42.480 --> 0:13:45.480 gold and the Wonders of Gold. It seems to be 0:13:45.600 --> 0:13:50.679 a recurring disease that American fascists fall for where they 0:13:50.679 --> 0:13:55.760 find some utopia which which flatters their their negative views 0:13:55.840 --> 0:13:58.280 of the economic industry that they that they saw back 0:13:58.280 --> 0:14:00.520 in their home country, and then they fall for it 0:14:00.559 --> 0:14:04.080 completely and then go um in the case of Yaha Hassan, 0:14:04.160 --> 0:14:06.400 probably to his death. I want to switch gears, but 0:14:06.440 --> 0:14:08.000 before we do, I want to ask one more questions, 0:14:08.000 --> 0:14:11.360 specifically about the money and that is isis has to 0:14:11.440 --> 0:14:15.120 interface with the non isis world. There they are not 0:14:15.200 --> 0:14:19.280 completely self sufficient done I believe food and energy? They 0:14:19.400 --> 0:14:23.080 sell oil. How did those transactions work? Like? How does 0:14:23.440 --> 0:14:27.800 ices ultimately, you know, go to market and sell oil 0:14:27.920 --> 0:14:29.640 or whatever they have to sell to get money from 0:14:29.640 --> 0:14:32.840 the outside world for imports. What are the mechanisms there? 0:14:33.080 --> 0:14:35.240 You know, I have to guess in some of these 0:14:35.240 --> 0:14:39.520 cases because the transactions are black market transactions and transactions. 0:14:39.560 --> 0:14:42.000 If you're buying money for buying buying oil rather from 0:14:42.080 --> 0:14:44.680 isis than you have to do this under the table. 0:14:44.760 --> 0:14:47.480 So I'm guessing it's largely bags of cash to be 0:14:47.600 --> 0:14:51.200 quite honest. Um, but you're right. The the interface between 0:14:51.240 --> 0:14:53.560 the Islamic state and the rest of the world is 0:14:53.560 --> 0:14:55.960 the only way that this group can survive. They need 0:14:56.080 --> 0:14:59.000 money and goods to flow in and out, and that's 0:14:59.040 --> 0:15:02.240 actually where they most of their cash. I mean, it's 0:15:02.840 --> 0:15:05.880 I think that there's a misconception actually that most of 0:15:05.880 --> 0:15:08.720 it's coming from just selling oil. It's mostly just people 0:15:08.800 --> 0:15:12.600 having privately their own transactions. And then isis getting its 0:15:12.840 --> 0:15:16.160 tax skimming off the top of wealth and income. How 0:15:16.200 --> 0:15:20.520 does the tax system work? Yeah, So they have again 0:15:20.680 --> 0:15:25.000 a scripturally ordained view of how attacks should be imposed. 0:15:25.080 --> 0:15:26.800 They believe that there is charity that has to be 0:15:26.840 --> 0:15:31.200 given by all Muslims who make a certain um beyond 0:15:31.200 --> 0:15:35.040 a certain cut off. Point, so they take that it's 0:15:35.080 --> 0:15:38.200 called zakat, and then beyond that there is a low 0:15:38.240 --> 0:15:40.840 I think it's I think it's single digit percentage tax 0:15:41.200 --> 0:15:44.880 of wealth and income that they take beyond that, and 0:15:44.880 --> 0:15:48.200 then there's certain categories of wealth that again because of 0:15:48.360 --> 0:15:53.560 scriptural requirement, they take. So um, there's a whole category 0:15:53.960 --> 0:15:58.760 called kanima, which translates to spoils. And if you're fighting 0:15:58.840 --> 0:16:01.240 on behalf of the Islamic stay eight and you know, 0:16:01.280 --> 0:16:04.120 you shoot someone and then you go grab his stuff 0:16:04.560 --> 0:16:06.720 that belongs to you. But there is a tax called 0:16:06.720 --> 0:16:10.320 the homes, which means tax that reverts to the state. 0:16:10.800 --> 0:16:15.400 This includes even if you're enslaving women sex slaves. If 0:16:15.440 --> 0:16:18.160 you get ten of them, then guess what two of 0:16:18.160 --> 0:16:20.480 them go as to property of the state, and they 0:16:20.480 --> 0:16:24.080 can be sold or disposed of as the caliph desires. 0:16:24.600 --> 0:16:26.560 So one of the themes that we talk about, in 0:16:26.600 --> 0:16:30.120 addition to UH finance and markets that we've hit on 0:16:30.320 --> 0:16:33.960 several times on this podcast, it's just all the different 0:16:34.000 --> 0:16:37.880 ways that the Internet is changing society and profound changing 0:16:37.880 --> 0:16:42.640 the world profoundly, whether it's how we organize ourselves politically, 0:16:42.840 --> 0:16:47.800 whether it's the collapse of experts UM. People have obviously 0:16:47.880 --> 0:16:51.560 talked a lot about online recruiting, people discovering the Islamic 0:16:51.640 --> 0:16:56.560 State UM through the Internet, traveling to the Islamic State 0:16:56.600 --> 0:17:00.480 based on information they find. What is UM explained to 0:17:00.560 --> 0:17:03.120 us sort of what is the role of the internet 0:17:03.160 --> 0:17:06.520 in allowing isis to exist? I think first we have 0:17:06.600 --> 0:17:09.520 to say what it's not. There is this misconception that 0:17:09.640 --> 0:17:13.320 the Islamic State, because it has so much successful propaganda, 0:17:13.400 --> 0:17:16.240 slick propaganda on the Internet, that that's the main way 0:17:16.280 --> 0:17:19.119 it gets people. It's not quite like that. In almost 0:17:19.200 --> 0:17:22.159 every case, the Islamic State gets people through person to 0:17:22.200 --> 0:17:24.680 person interaction. You know, it doesn't seem to be enough 0:17:25.119 --> 0:17:26.760 to just say on the Internet that we are the 0:17:26.800 --> 0:17:29.399 fulfillment of Islam. Your buddy has to say it and 0:17:29.440 --> 0:17:32.479 then refer you to the proper website. So that's usually 0:17:32.480 --> 0:17:35.720 what the the Internet is used for is once you've 0:17:35.720 --> 0:17:39.159 had the person to person contact, then a resource that 0:17:39.200 --> 0:17:41.919 you can go to and have all your fears of 0:17:42.040 --> 0:17:44.760 discomfort when you get there allayed by images of people 0:17:44.760 --> 0:17:48.280 having a good time, and then have your ideology UM 0:17:48.320 --> 0:17:51.240 corrected when it's when it's wrong. So you know what 0:17:51.359 --> 0:17:53.399 what what you have to what you have to believe. 0:17:54.000 --> 0:17:56.240 The one thing that is really different though with the 0:17:56.280 --> 0:17:59.119 Islamic State and its use of the Internet is that 0:17:59.240 --> 0:18:02.600 it's able to reach women. So unlike al Qaeda, which 0:18:02.640 --> 0:18:06.000 was looking for basically a military force, a military vanguard, 0:18:06.600 --> 0:18:08.640 Islamic State wants to create a utopia, and you can't 0:18:08.640 --> 0:18:11.679 have a utopia that's that's all men. So they are 0:18:11.720 --> 0:18:15.400 able to reach out to conservative women who in other 0:18:15.480 --> 0:18:18.000 cases would not be able to have, you know, interactions 0:18:18.000 --> 0:18:21.160 outside the house that would allow easy recruitment and get 0:18:21.200 --> 0:18:24.560 people from the female sex to to come over. So 0:18:24.600 --> 0:18:27.640 that's that's like of the recruits right there, and it's 0:18:27.880 --> 0:18:30.480 a demographic that the Internet alone has allowed them to reach. 0:18:31.520 --> 0:18:34.919 So one of Joe's um pet theories, which I'm a 0:18:34.920 --> 0:18:38.720 fan of as well, is the idea that the rise 0:18:38.840 --> 0:18:43.600 of the Internet is ultimately something that will undermine the 0:18:43.760 --> 0:18:48.840 nations state. Um, how does that theory apply to isis 0:18:48.880 --> 0:18:52.600 Because like, in some ways it's a supernational organization, but 0:18:52.600 --> 0:18:55.119 in other ways it's clearly an organization that is trying 0:18:55.160 --> 0:18:58.160 to set up an actual caliphate in the Middle East 0:18:58.200 --> 0:19:02.080 and an actual state. The differences between the physical caliphate 0:19:02.200 --> 0:19:04.800 and then the mental caliphate are are I think really 0:19:04.840 --> 0:19:08.919 important to spell out. And for some people who have 0:19:09.040 --> 0:19:11.280 been attracted to the Islamic state, they've spent a long 0:19:11.359 --> 0:19:13.919 time on the Internet in a kind of fantasy world 0:19:14.400 --> 0:19:17.520 that remained just that until there actually was a concrete 0:19:17.600 --> 0:19:21.160 caliphate to go to. So the Internet allowed a community 0:19:21.200 --> 0:19:26.120 to flourish that was separated by geography beforehand, but that 0:19:26.280 --> 0:19:29.240 allowed people to have a sense of belonging. And then 0:19:29.560 --> 0:19:31.639 you know, you've got this vacuum of power because of 0:19:31.640 --> 0:19:35.119 the Syrian Civil War, because of miss government in the 0:19:35.119 --> 0:19:39.639 sunny areas of Iraq, and then the Internet is made 0:19:39.680 --> 0:19:42.120 flesh in the form of the caliphate. So it's it's 0:19:42.119 --> 0:19:44.800 been extremely important. The other aspect I think that that 0:19:45.200 --> 0:19:49.800 the Internet has really remade in this terrain is Muslim's 0:19:49.880 --> 0:19:56.000 view of scriptural interpretation. So there's this long tradition called um. Well, 0:19:56.280 --> 0:19:59.920 there's this concept called dad, the ability of a Muslim 0:20:00.040 --> 0:20:04.280 cleric to create law, to find to derive law from scripture, 0:20:04.920 --> 0:20:07.679 and this is something that in the past you'd have 0:20:07.720 --> 0:20:11.320 to go to Mecca and Medina and study with great 0:20:11.400 --> 0:20:14.720 Muslim scholars and get us their seal of approval before 0:20:14.800 --> 0:20:19.240 you can undertake this this dangerous process of deriving law 0:20:19.359 --> 0:20:23.879 from from scripture. Now the Internet closes that gap, and 0:20:24.040 --> 0:20:28.400 it creates a huge threat to the authority of those 0:20:28.440 --> 0:20:32.080 former imams scholars who you'd have to go to visit. 0:20:32.560 --> 0:20:35.879 So when I would talk to ISIS supporters about theology, 0:20:36.040 --> 0:20:40.640 they would almost invariably end our conversation by saying, if 0:20:40.640 --> 0:20:44.439 you want to know more, consult Shake YouTube or shake Google. 0:20:45.080 --> 0:20:47.960 You know, just just ask around online and you'll find people. 0:20:48.160 --> 0:20:51.040 The people you find if you just consult shake Google 0:20:51.280 --> 0:20:55.520 about jihad are not the mainstream scholars who are in 0:20:55.600 --> 0:20:58.879 Saudi Arabia urging obedience to the Saudi King. They're not 0:20:58.920 --> 0:21:03.879 the American ima who you know, have kind of roles 0:21:03.920 --> 0:21:06.360 advising the White House. Instead, they're the Jihadis. So they're 0:21:06.359 --> 0:21:08.960 the outlacky types, and that's because the Internet has allowed 0:21:09.000 --> 0:21:12.439 those voices to rise. So this is very similar in 0:21:12.480 --> 0:21:16.040 a way to what happened with the Reformation and the 0:21:16.080 --> 0:21:20.439 printing press. I recently, Elizabeth Eisenstein's a historian, wrote a 0:21:20.440 --> 0:21:23.040 book about the role of the printing press, and I 0:21:23.080 --> 0:21:26.960 think everyone can into it. You know, Martin Luther, he 0:21:27.080 --> 0:21:30.280 nailed his theses to the wall and then it's spread around. 0:21:30.359 --> 0:21:32.760 So the sort of like the viral aspect of a 0:21:32.800 --> 0:21:36.120 new communication thing. It's kind of obvious. Everyone can get 0:21:36.119 --> 0:21:38.960 the role, everyone can understand how the new medium allowed 0:21:38.960 --> 0:21:41.879 it to spread. But the other point that she made 0:21:42.640 --> 0:21:46.280 is that prior to Martin Luther, the printing press allowed 0:21:46.320 --> 0:21:49.760 people to start to read the Bible themselves, see the 0:21:49.800 --> 0:21:55.480 hypocrisys and the errors and the you know, the compromises 0:21:55.600 --> 0:21:59.119 made by their you know, the theologians of the time. 0:21:59.400 --> 0:22:03.320 And so even before there was a criticism, even before 0:22:03.320 --> 0:22:06.080 there was a new idea that was spread the foundations 0:22:06.119 --> 0:22:09.399 of the old idea, the existing establishment was starting to 0:22:09.520 --> 0:22:12.919 crumble thanks to the printing press. And so it sounds 0:22:13.000 --> 0:22:16.920 very similar. Even without the idea of something new, like 0:22:17.160 --> 0:22:20.840 the Islamic State, you still have people learning about say 0:22:20.920 --> 0:22:24.160 things they don't like that Saudi Arabia does, or various 0:22:24.480 --> 0:22:27.119 leaders in the Muslim world. They could start to see 0:22:27.160 --> 0:22:30.000 the cracks. You got it exactly right with this comparison 0:22:30.040 --> 0:22:34.000 to the Reformation, because if you look at what preceded 0:22:34.000 --> 0:22:37.200 the Islamic State in the twenty years before it, there 0:22:37.359 --> 0:22:41.199 was no shortage of of accusations of having been co 0:22:41.280 --> 0:22:45.360 opted to existing scholars, they would say, the Islamic States 0:22:45.359 --> 0:22:47.359 scholars would would have would have been saying for a 0:22:47.359 --> 0:22:53.280 long time, Look you are Toady's of major Muslim powers, 0:22:53.880 --> 0:22:58.200 of say a Lazar University in Cairo, and they'd say, look, 0:22:58.600 --> 0:23:00.679 how can we trust you. Our dollars are the ones 0:23:00.680 --> 0:23:02.919 who have been in prison for their beliefs. They have 0:23:03.000 --> 0:23:05.840 not been paid off. Your scholars are the ones who 0:23:05.840 --> 0:23:09.159 are in palaces. Obviously we're the ones who have integrity. 0:23:09.640 --> 0:23:12.240 And so yeah, there is a kind of pre existing 0:23:12.440 --> 0:23:15.400 rot that the Islamic State was able to point to 0:23:15.400 --> 0:23:19.320 to undercut the authority of those who opposed them. All right, 0:23:19.480 --> 0:23:23.040