1 00:00:08,920 --> 00:00:13,119 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to another edition of the Odd Lots Podcast. 2 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:18,200 Speaker 1: I'm Joe Wis and so Tracy. We're doing one of 3 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:21,479 Speaker 1: our first series of the Odd Lots Podcast, one of 4 00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:24,840 Speaker 1: our first sort of sub series where we're going to 5 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:28,400 Speaker 1: do a string of thematic episodes. Wait it, I mean 6 00:00:28,480 --> 00:00:31,040 Speaker 1: it is the first, right, it's our very right. I 7 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:32,400 Speaker 1: don't know why I said one of the first. I 8 00:00:32,440 --> 00:00:35,199 Speaker 1: think that our first thematic. You need to play it 9 00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:39,080 Speaker 1: up more, Joe. This is a momentous occasion exactly, this 10 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:42,440 Speaker 1: huge new endeavor we're taking on a three part series 11 00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:50,640 Speaker 1: on money, markets and crime. Pause for effect. Okay, I'm excited, 12 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:53,720 Speaker 1: me too. So normally we talked about markets and finance 13 00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:56,520 Speaker 1: and money in the sort of the legal world, the 14 00:00:56,600 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 1: regulated world, but of course all of these same phenomena exists, 15 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:04,040 Speaker 1: uh in the in the illegal world and off of 16 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:09,880 Speaker 1: exchanges and outside of official official industries. Well more than that, right, 17 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:14,000 Speaker 1: because you could argue that in the absence of legitimacy, 18 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:18,120 Speaker 1: money is kind of the thing that drives crime and 19 00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:22,160 Speaker 1: makes it happen and makes the criminal world go round, 20 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:25,880 Speaker 1: so to speak. Right, you could you could probably argue 21 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:28,600 Speaker 1: that for our first episode, we're going to talk about 22 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:32,360 Speaker 1: what maybe the what might be considered to be the 23 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:36,319 Speaker 1: largest criminal entity in the world right now, and that 24 00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:40,679 Speaker 1: is uh Isis or the Islamic State. Okay, well, I 25 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:44,959 Speaker 1: mean this is a topic um that's pretty close to 26 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:47,440 Speaker 1: home for me right now, which is um abi dabi 27 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:51,640 Speaker 1: and obviously a topic of great concern. It's interesting to 28 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 1: come at it from a monetary angle. What exactly are 29 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:57,120 Speaker 1: we going to be talking about there? Well, I mean, 30 00:01:57,240 --> 00:02:01,040 Speaker 1: so they've established the new geopolitical it today or it's 31 00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:03,680 Speaker 1: a few years old by now, but it's always sort 32 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:06,520 Speaker 1: of I've always been curious, like how money really works, 33 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:12,000 Speaker 1: because any new geospatial entity, just like any other nation state, 34 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 1: has to kind of you know, have a currency and 35 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:18,000 Speaker 1: taxes and all that kind of stuff. And so I 36 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:20,760 Speaker 1: think we should talk about how how it all really works. 37 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:34,320 Speaker 1: So with us today in studio here is Graham Wood. 38 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:38,240 Speaker 1: He is a lecturer at Yale, he's at the Atlantic 39 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:41,600 Speaker 1: and he has a new book out titled The Way 40 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:45,880 Speaker 1: of the Strangers Encounters with the Islamic State, and I 41 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:48,720 Speaker 1: recently read it and it was phenomenal. So I wanted 42 00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:51,680 Speaker 1: to bring Graham in. So Graham, thanks for joining us. 43 00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:55,520 Speaker 1: Good to be here, Joe Tracy. So your book is now, 44 00:02:55,639 --> 00:02:58,760 Speaker 1: just to be clear, your book is not even really 45 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:02,840 Speaker 1: about the operation of the Islamic State specifically. What you 46 00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:05,760 Speaker 1: did is you went around the world. Well, describe what 47 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:07,880 Speaker 1: your book is like you do. My book is an 48 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:10,880 Speaker 1: exploration into the mental world of the Islamic State. And 49 00:03:10,919 --> 00:03:13,880 Speaker 1: you know, there's physical territory that they control, and then 50 00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:17,160 Speaker 1: beyond that, they have this network of supporters that's worldwide. 51 00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:20,120 Speaker 1: That's in the Caliphate itself, Syria and Iraq, but that's 52 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:24,120 Speaker 1: also in places like Tokyo, Melbourne, the United States, Western Europe, 53 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:27,440 Speaker 1: and it's it's it's a whole vision of what the 54 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:29,960 Speaker 1: universe is, what the best way to organize a human 55 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:33,720 Speaker 1: society is. And this of course includes how to actually 56 00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:36,880 Speaker 1: administer a state in that includes aspects of finance and 57 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:40,080 Speaker 1: economic policy that people were willing to describe to me 58 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:43,320 Speaker 1: in pretty great detail. So one thing I've learned from 59 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:48,080 Speaker 1: living in the Middle East is um. The Islamic faith 60 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:52,600 Speaker 1: is open to significant interpretation. And while a lot of 61 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 1: it is based on the Quran, um a lot of 62 00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 1: it also revolves around people trying to interpret the Koran 63 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:01,800 Speaker 1: and figure out how to apply it to modern life. 64 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:04,640 Speaker 1: So I guess my question is, if you think that 65 00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:09,240 Speaker 1: the Islamic State is fundamentalist when it comes to islam, um, 66 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:14,680 Speaker 1: how are they interpreting Islamic treatment of monetary systems. Well, 67 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:18,120 Speaker 1: in some ways, the Islamic states view of finance of 68 00:04:18,200 --> 00:04:22,760 Speaker 1: economic policy is pretty orthodox within Islam. Like you have 69 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:27,440 Speaker 1: a burgeoning Islamic finance industry that tries to get around, 70 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:30,360 Speaker 1: for example, the charging of interest, which is called ribba 71 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:33,719 Speaker 1: in Islam and traditionally has has not been permitted, and 72 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 1: the Islamic State, of course it outlaws that it falls 73 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:40,719 Speaker 1: into line with kind of orthodox readings of of what's 74 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:47,000 Speaker 1: permitted as tools or instruments of of of economic policy. 75 00:04:47,320 --> 00:04:49,599 Speaker 1: So that's that's part of what you see there. You 76 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:55,440 Speaker 1: also see, though, a much broader adoption of some of 77 00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:58,159 Speaker 1: the early practices of Islam as the Islamic State reads it, 78 00:04:58,200 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 1: and that includes things like getting rid of fiat currency, 79 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:05,760 Speaker 1: getting rid of a whole range of of other economic 80 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:08,240 Speaker 1: instruments that that exist and that are used in a 81 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 1: place like even Abu Dhabi. But that the Islamic State, 82 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:15,160 Speaker 1: because that their pretensions to purity uh has tried to 83 00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:17,560 Speaker 1: get rid of what do they see, you know, they 84 00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:21,880 Speaker 1: tried to practice extreme fealty to the sort of letter 85 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:24,600 Speaker 1: of the law. They go back to, you know how 86 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:28,159 Speaker 1: the profit lived. Where in the Koran or elsewhere is 87 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:32,640 Speaker 1: a fiat currency outlawed? Yeah, so the profit is said 88 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:34,839 Speaker 1: to have have said this, that that that's the form 89 00:05:34,839 --> 00:05:37,440 Speaker 1: of currency that that we should follow. That was what 90 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:40,160 Speaker 1: was instituted during I believe his own lifetime was of 91 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:43,400 Speaker 1: a gold dinar, and then discussion of silver and copper 92 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:46,400 Speaker 1: as well. So that's a perfect example where the Islamic 93 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:49,320 Speaker 1: State they have this kind of holier than now attitude, 94 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:51,600 Speaker 1: and so you can actually see the videos that they've 95 00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:54,360 Speaker 1: put out in their propaganda saying, hey, look at this 96 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:57,320 Speaker 1: beautiful new coin that that we have minted, and that 97 00:05:57,320 --> 00:05:59,920 Speaker 1: that once we're really up and running, this is the 98 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:01,880 Speaker 1: only thing we're going to use. I think Tracy was 99 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:04,480 Speaker 1: just watching one of these videos, weren't you. Yeah, So 100 00:06:04,520 --> 00:06:08,360 Speaker 1: I quickly googled one of these um right before we know, 101 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:10,960 Speaker 1: I should say, I've been doing my research for many, 102 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:14,880 Speaker 1: many weeks, and I came upon this video ages ago, 103 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:18,760 Speaker 1: and I looked at it and uh interpreted it and 104 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:23,440 Speaker 1: analyzed it for many many hours Isis has amazing production 105 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:26,920 Speaker 1: values on their videos. Um, that's one thing. And they 106 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:31,280 Speaker 1: put out a video about money essentially, and there's all 107 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:36,120 Speaker 1: these references to Bretton Woods and the Federal Reserve System. Um, 108 00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 1: and yes, there are pictures of some very very shiny 109 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:44,400 Speaker 1: new coins and it's essentially a propaganda video for their money, 110 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:48,080 Speaker 1: which is pretty amazing. Yeah, from my perspective, I watched 111 00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:50,760 Speaker 1: these videos all the time, and you know, first of all, 112 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:52,800 Speaker 1: it's nice to have one that has no bloodshed in it. 113 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:55,160 Speaker 1: And this is one of them where that they take 114 00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:58,680 Speaker 1: the coins and you know it's it's a gold, shiny coin, 115 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:01,159 Speaker 1: So you get good fighting, you get a good camera, 116 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:04,280 Speaker 1: and you've got quite the image of a guy at 117 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:06,760 Speaker 1: a bureau of change, you know, in the middle of 118 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 1: the Islamic state, fondling this new coin and then talking 119 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:12,600 Speaker 1: about how, wow, no longer do I have to deal 120 00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:16,280 Speaker 1: in paper currency with pictures of the White House on it. Instead, 121 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:19,360 Speaker 1: we've got something that that is purely Islamic, gets back 122 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:21,680 Speaker 1: to the prophetic model. That's the vision that they try 123 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:24,960 Speaker 1: to put forth with with everything that they do. And 124 00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 1: in this case, you know that they actually do have 125 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:31,760 Speaker 1: historical precedent and scripture that they turned back to. It's 126 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:34,000 Speaker 1: you know, it looks looks good. The fact that they 127 00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 1: don't actually use the din r for for very many, 128 00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:39,560 Speaker 1: you know, day to day transactions in the Islamic State 129 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:41,960 Speaker 1: is beside the point that the theory is there, and 130 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:44,280 Speaker 1: this is again the mental world of the Caliphate is 131 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 1: thinking that whether they're actually doing it, they're on the 132 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:50,200 Speaker 1: right track. Well, so I was just going to ask 133 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:54,520 Speaker 1: about that, what is the gap between the their idealized 134 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:58,400 Speaker 1: vision of a system based on these beautiful gold dinars 135 00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 1: and what they're actually using day to day most people 136 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:04,680 Speaker 1: to say buy things, Yeah, I think day to day 137 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 1: you'd find them using local currencies. You find Iraqi dinars, 138 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:11,080 Speaker 1: Syrian pounds, and then you would find U S dollars 139 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:15,320 Speaker 1: probably used used as well. Now there is some use 140 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 1: of the Iraqi diner or excuse me, the Islamic State 141 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:20,760 Speaker 1: dinar as well, when we know about that because of 142 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:25,400 Speaker 1: some recently revealed documents that prohibit the the export of 143 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:29,640 Speaker 1: the dinar, the Islamic State dinar. So apparently they're out 144 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:32,960 Speaker 1: there in circulation and some coin enthusiasts somewhere is going 145 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:35,000 Speaker 1: to get one of these and it's gonna be really valuable, 146 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:38,120 Speaker 1: but what they're actually using in day to day practice 147 00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 1: is probably something that actually resembles a fairly normal economic system. 148 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:44,840 Speaker 1: And I should just point out that's really interesting because 149 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:49,360 Speaker 1: um monetary regimes throughout history that have been based on 150 00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:52,800 Speaker 1: gold have always had this export problem that they want 151 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:56,800 Speaker 1: the currency to circulate within the economy, but there's the 152 00:08:56,840 --> 00:08:58,960 Speaker 1: problem of why not just take the gold and get 153 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:01,280 Speaker 1: it out of the economy. So kind of fascinating that 154 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:05,520 Speaker 1: they're experiencing something on that or trying to prohibit something 155 00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:09,120 Speaker 1: that regimes have dealt with for hundreds of years on 156 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:11,959 Speaker 1: this and this really shows that the Islamic state exists 157 00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:14,920 Speaker 1: in the world economy despite itself. You know, they are 158 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 1: subject to the same pressures, the same inflows and outflows 159 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:23,000 Speaker 1: of capital. And yeah, the rules of of the rules 160 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:26,000 Speaker 1: of economics, they do not cease to apply just because 161 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:28,680 Speaker 1: you want to live back in the seventh century. Well, 162 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:31,360 Speaker 1: I was going to ask, so, how much is the 163 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:36,840 Speaker 1: hatred of fiat currency down to whatever um the prophet 164 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:39,200 Speaker 1: says in the Kuran versus how much of it is 165 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:43,199 Speaker 1: down to the idea that fiat currency ultimately is associated 166 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:48,400 Speaker 1: with our modern monetary system and associated um with Western economies, 167 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:51,679 Speaker 1: which presumably isis Um is not a big fan of 168 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:55,280 Speaker 1: In my experience, you could ask people for the reasons 169 00:09:55,280 --> 00:09:58,440 Speaker 1: for for favoring one policy or another, and they'll always 170 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:00,520 Speaker 1: start with the principled reason. They say, well, this is 171 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:02,800 Speaker 1: what the prophet said we have to do, so we'll 172 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:05,839 Speaker 1: do it. And then they'll go to the more instrumental 173 00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:09,000 Speaker 1: arguments for it, and they've got a whole slew of 174 00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:14,400 Speaker 1: kind of warmed over economic conspiracy theories, plus crankish views 175 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:17,960 Speaker 1: of of how international finance does and should work, and 176 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:22,000 Speaker 1: they'll start invoking those two. So you'd find people who 177 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:26,280 Speaker 1: have almost uh um, maybe a fringe e kind of 178 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:28,840 Speaker 1: occupy a view of the world and say, look, finance 179 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:32,400 Speaker 1: is a corrupt system to such a degree that we 180 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:34,920 Speaker 1: need to to burn it away, and that's luckily we 181 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:37,200 Speaker 1: have this prophetic model where we can do that. And 182 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:40,440 Speaker 1: so they think that if we get the kind of 183 00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:44,560 Speaker 1: vampiric finance industry off of our backs by getting rid 184 00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:49,000 Speaker 1: of interest, by getting rid of of fiat currency, then 185 00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:51,520 Speaker 1: the economy will be unleashed and we can have a 186 00:10:51,559 --> 00:10:54,680 Speaker 1: big raft of social programs that will be funded by 187 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:59,319 Speaker 1: the large s It's interesting how an I don't want 188 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:01,840 Speaker 1: people to inter with this the wrong way, but how 189 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:06,800 Speaker 1: people with UH fringe viewpoints across the sort of spectrum 190 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:11,240 Speaker 1: often arrived and similar solutions. And you profile one of 191 00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:14,400 Speaker 1: the people you profile or a couple of you profile 192 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:17,440 Speaker 1: in Texas, and I think the wife at least in 193 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:21,400 Speaker 1: this couple was UH Ron Paul fan. And I'm not 194 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:23,880 Speaker 1: saying that Ron Paul fans are the same as Isis, 195 00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:26,839 Speaker 1: but you have and your stretch. I don't because someone's 196 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:29,360 Speaker 1: gonna get really angry and say that I compared Ron 197 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:32,160 Speaker 1: Paul aderans to Isis. But you know, there ends up 198 00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:35,439 Speaker 1: being this sort of ideological overlap. And monetary policy is 199 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:38,280 Speaker 1: a great example. Yeah, it's actually not just the wife 200 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 1: but the husband as well, who is American from Plano, 201 00:11:40,679 --> 00:11:43,800 Speaker 1: Texas and is the most important American in the Islamic 202 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:47,480 Speaker 1: State today. Both of them huge Ron Paul fans. And yes, 203 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:51,560 Speaker 1: I too would like to say clearly is not a 204 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:54,840 Speaker 1: member of the Islamic State, and most Islamic State members 205 00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:56,960 Speaker 1: are not fans of Ron Paul, and most Ron Paul 206 00:11:57,000 --> 00:12:00,280 Speaker 1: fans are not members of the Islamic State. Yes, those 207 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:02,839 Speaker 1: of you who wish to disregard my caveats here. I 208 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:06,640 Speaker 1: look forward to your mail. Now. Yes, their view of 209 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:10,120 Speaker 1: the world economy was one that had kind of conspiratorial 210 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:13,720 Speaker 1: aspects to it, even without support for the Islamic State. 211 00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:17,560 Speaker 1: But they saw, for political reasons as well as economic reasons, 212 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:20,760 Speaker 1: kind of vindication of Ron Paul's ideas in the rise 213 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:23,000 Speaker 1: of the Islamic State. She, by the way, is not 214 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:27,000 Speaker 1: part of the Islamic State. She left Syria with their kids. 215 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 1: And yeah, the dad's still over there and is churning 216 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:34,160 Speaker 1: out mostly non economic writing about the Islamic State. But 217 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:37,600 Speaker 1: he's out there and working hard. Isn't it amazing that? 218 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:41,319 Speaker 1: I mean, on that note, isn't it amazing that decades 219 00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:46,000 Speaker 1: after um, we've been living with paper currency and you know, 220 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:48,880 Speaker 1: we had the introduction of Bretton woods and modern monetary 221 00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:51,720 Speaker 1: systems and all that, Like, we still seem to have 222 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:57,679 Speaker 1: a significant portion of the population that remains obsessed with 223 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:01,880 Speaker 1: gold and silver, these things that they can touch that 224 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:05,679 Speaker 1: they feel have intrinsic value of some sort. It's just like, 225 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:09,000 Speaker 1: I mean, it kind of speaks to thousands and thousands 226 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:12,880 Speaker 1: of years of human nature. I guess. Yeah, this American 227 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:15,840 Speaker 1: that I've named his name is Yahia Abu Hassan in 228 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:19,240 Speaker 1: my book. It's the first time his identity has been revealed. 229 00:13:19,679 --> 00:13:23,480 Speaker 1: The comparison that I often reached to um to previous 230 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:27,559 Speaker 1: American traders is as a pound poet. Yeahhia Abu Hassan 231 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:30,200 Speaker 1: runs a lot of poetry as well, and as repound. 232 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:35,000 Speaker 1: You know, he was a huge efficionado of of economic 233 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:39,760 Speaker 1: crank theories, major Douglass theory of social credit views of 234 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:42,439 Speaker 1: You can even see it in his poetry talking about 235 00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:45,480 Speaker 1: gold and the Wonders of Gold. It seems to be 236 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:50,679 Speaker 1: a recurring disease that American fascists fall for where they 237 00:13:50,679 --> 00:13:55,760 Speaker 1: find some utopia which which flatters their their negative views 238 00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:58,280 Speaker 1: of the economic industry that they that they saw back 239 00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:00,520 Speaker 1: in their home country, and then they fall for it 240 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:04,080 Speaker 1: completely and then go um in the case of Yaha Hassan, 241 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:06,400 Speaker 1: probably to his death. I want to switch gears, but 242 00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:08,000 Speaker 1: before we do, I want to ask one more questions, 243 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:11,360 Speaker 1: specifically about the money and that is isis has to 244 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:15,120 Speaker 1: interface with the non isis world. There they are not 245 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:19,280 Speaker 1: completely self sufficient done I believe food and energy? They 246 00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:23,080 Speaker 1: sell oil. How did those transactions work? Like? How does 247 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:27,800 Speaker 1: ices ultimately, you know, go to market and sell oil 248 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:29,640 Speaker 1: or whatever they have to sell to get money from 249 00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:32,840 Speaker 1: the outside world for imports. What are the mechanisms there? 250 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:35,240 Speaker 1: You know, I have to guess in some of these 251 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 1: cases because the transactions are black market transactions and transactions. 252 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:42,000 Speaker 1: If you're buying money for buying buying oil rather from 253 00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:44,680 Speaker 1: isis than you have to do this under the table. 254 00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:47,480 Speaker 1: So I'm guessing it's largely bags of cash to be 255 00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:51,200 Speaker 1: quite honest. Um, but you're right. The the interface between 256 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:53,560 Speaker 1: the Islamic state and the rest of the world is 257 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:55,960 Speaker 1: the only way that this group can survive. They need 258 00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:59,000 Speaker 1: money and goods to flow in and out, and that's 259 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:02,240 Speaker 1: actually where they most of their cash. I mean, it's 260 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:05,880 Speaker 1: I think that there's a misconception actually that most of 261 00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:08,720 Speaker 1: it's coming from just selling oil. It's mostly just people 262 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:12,600 Speaker 1: having privately their own transactions. And then isis getting its 263 00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:16,160 Speaker 1: tax skimming off the top of wealth and income. How 264 00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:20,520 Speaker 1: does the tax system work? Yeah, So they have again 265 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:25,000 Speaker 1: a scripturally ordained view of how attacks should be imposed. 266 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:26,800 Speaker 1: They believe that there is charity that has to be 267 00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:31,200 Speaker 1: given by all Muslims who make a certain um beyond 268 00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 1: a certain cut off. Point, so they take that it's 269 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:38,200 Speaker 1: called zakat, and then beyond that there is a low 270 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:40,840 Speaker 1: I think it's I think it's single digit percentage tax 271 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:44,880 Speaker 1: of wealth and income that they take beyond that, and 272 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:48,200 Speaker 1: then there's certain categories of wealth that again because of 273 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:53,560 Speaker 1: scriptural requirement, they take. So um, there's a whole category 274 00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:58,760 Speaker 1: called kanima, which translates to spoils. And if you're fighting 275 00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:01,240 Speaker 1: on behalf of the Islamic stay eight and you know, 276 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:04,120 Speaker 1: you shoot someone and then you go grab his stuff 277 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:06,720 Speaker 1: that belongs to you. But there is a tax called 278 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:10,320 Speaker 1: the homes, which means tax that reverts to the state. 279 00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:15,400 Speaker 1: This includes even if you're enslaving women sex slaves. If 280 00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:18,160 Speaker 1: you get ten of them, then guess what two of 281 00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:20,480 Speaker 1: them go as to property of the state, and they 282 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:24,080 Speaker 1: can be sold or disposed of as the caliph desires. 283 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:26,560 Speaker 1: So one of the themes that we talk about, in 284 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:30,120 Speaker 1: addition to UH finance and markets that we've hit on 285 00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:33,960 Speaker 1: several times on this podcast, it's just all the different 286 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:37,880 Speaker 1: ways that the Internet is changing society and profound changing 287 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:42,640 Speaker 1: the world profoundly, whether it's how we organize ourselves politically, 288 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:47,800 Speaker 1: whether it's the collapse of experts UM. People have obviously 289 00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:51,560 Speaker 1: talked a lot about online recruiting, people discovering the Islamic 290 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:56,560 Speaker 1: State UM through the Internet, traveling to the Islamic State 291 00:16:56,600 --> 00:17:00,480 Speaker 1: based on information they find. What is UM explained to 292 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:03,120 Speaker 1: us sort of what is the role of the internet 293 00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:06,520 Speaker 1: in allowing isis to exist? I think first we have 294 00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:09,520 Speaker 1: to say what it's not. There is this misconception that 295 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:13,320 Speaker 1: the Islamic State, because it has so much successful propaganda, 296 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:16,240 Speaker 1: slick propaganda on the Internet, that that's the main way 297 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:19,119 Speaker 1: it gets people. It's not quite like that. In almost 298 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:22,159 Speaker 1: every case, the Islamic State gets people through person to 299 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:24,680 Speaker 1: person interaction. You know, it doesn't seem to be enough 300 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:26,760 Speaker 1: to just say on the Internet that we are the 301 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:29,399 Speaker 1: fulfillment of Islam. Your buddy has to say it and 302 00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:32,479 Speaker 1: then refer you to the proper website. So that's usually 303 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:35,720 Speaker 1: what the the Internet is used for is once you've 304 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:39,159 Speaker 1: had the person to person contact, then a resource that 305 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:41,919 Speaker 1: you can go to and have all your fears of 306 00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:44,760 Speaker 1: discomfort when you get there allayed by images of people 307 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:48,280 Speaker 1: having a good time, and then have your ideology UM 308 00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:51,240 Speaker 1: corrected when it's when it's wrong. So you know what 309 00:17:51,359 --> 00:17:53,399 Speaker 1: what what you have to what you have to believe. 310 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:56,240 Speaker 1: The one thing that is really different though with the 311 00:17:56,280 --> 00:17:59,119 Speaker 1: Islamic State and its use of the Internet is that 312 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:02,600 Speaker 1: it's able to reach women. So unlike al Qaeda, which 313 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:06,000 Speaker 1: was looking for basically a military force, a military vanguard, 314 00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:08,640 Speaker 1: Islamic State wants to create a utopia, and you can't 315 00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:11,679 Speaker 1: have a utopia that's that's all men. So they are 316 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:15,400 Speaker 1: able to reach out to conservative women who in other 317 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 1: cases would not be able to have, you know, interactions 318 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:21,160 Speaker 1: outside the house that would allow easy recruitment and get 319 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:24,560 Speaker 1: people from the female sex to to come over. So 320 00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:27,640 Speaker 1: that's that's like of the recruits right there, and it's 321 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:30,480 Speaker 1: a demographic that the Internet alone has allowed them to reach. 322 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:34,919 Speaker 1: So one of Joe's um pet theories, which I'm a 323 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:38,720 Speaker 1: fan of as well, is the idea that the rise 324 00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:43,600 Speaker 1: of the Internet is ultimately something that will undermine the 325 00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:48,840 Speaker 1: nations state. Um, how does that theory apply to isis 326 00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:52,600 Speaker 1: Because like, in some ways it's a supernational organization, but 327 00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:55,119 Speaker 1: in other ways it's clearly an organization that is trying 328 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:58,160 Speaker 1: to set up an actual caliphate in the Middle East 329 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:02,080 Speaker 1: and an actual state. The differences between the physical caliphate 330 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:04,800 Speaker 1: and then the mental caliphate are are I think really 331 00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:08,919 Speaker 1: important to spell out. And for some people who have 332 00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:11,280 Speaker 1: been attracted to the Islamic state, they've spent a long 333 00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:13,919 Speaker 1: time on the Internet in a kind of fantasy world 334 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:17,520 Speaker 1: that remained just that until there actually was a concrete 335 00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:21,160 Speaker 1: caliphate to go to. So the Internet allowed a community 336 00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:26,120 Speaker 1: to flourish that was separated by geography beforehand, but that 337 00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:29,240 Speaker 1: allowed people to have a sense of belonging. And then 338 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:31,639 Speaker 1: you know, you've got this vacuum of power because of 339 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:35,119 Speaker 1: the Syrian Civil War, because of miss government in the 340 00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:39,639 Speaker 1: sunny areas of Iraq, and then the Internet is made 341 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:42,120 Speaker 1: flesh in the form of the caliphate. So it's it's 342 00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:44,800 Speaker 1: been extremely important. The other aspect I think that that 343 00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:49,800 Speaker 1: the Internet has really remade in this terrain is Muslim's 344 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:56,000 Speaker 1: view of scriptural interpretation. So there's this long tradition called um. Well, 345 00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:59,920 Speaker 1: there's this concept called dad, the ability of a Muslim 346 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:04,280 Speaker 1: cleric to create law, to find to derive law from scripture, 347 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:07,679 Speaker 1: and this is something that in the past you'd have 348 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:11,320 Speaker 1: to go to Mecca and Medina and study with great 349 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:14,720 Speaker 1: Muslim scholars and get us their seal of approval before 350 00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:19,240 Speaker 1: you can undertake this this dangerous process of deriving law 351 00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:23,879 Speaker 1: from from scripture. Now the Internet closes that gap, and 352 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:28,400 Speaker 1: it creates a huge threat to the authority of those 353 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:32,080 Speaker 1: former imams scholars who you'd have to go to visit. 354 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:35,879 Speaker 1: So when I would talk to ISIS supporters about theology, 355 00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:40,640 Speaker 1: they would almost invariably end our conversation by saying, if 356 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:44,439 Speaker 1: you want to know more, consult Shake YouTube or shake Google. 357 00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:47,960 Speaker 1: You know, just just ask around online and you'll find people. 358 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:51,040 Speaker 1: The people you find if you just consult shake Google 359 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:55,520 Speaker 1: about jihad are not the mainstream scholars who are in 360 00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:58,879 Speaker 1: Saudi Arabia urging obedience to the Saudi King. They're not 361 00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:03,879 Speaker 1: the American ima who you know, have kind of roles 362 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:06,360 Speaker 1: advising the White House. Instead, they're the Jihadis. So they're 363 00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:08,960 Speaker 1: the outlacky types, and that's because the Internet has allowed 364 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:12,439 Speaker 1: those voices to rise. So this is very similar in 365 00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:16,040 Speaker 1: a way to what happened with the Reformation and the 366 00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:20,439 Speaker 1: printing press. I recently, Elizabeth Eisenstein's a historian, wrote a 367 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:23,040 Speaker 1: book about the role of the printing press, and I 368 00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:26,960 Speaker 1: think everyone can into it. You know, Martin Luther, he 369 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:30,280 Speaker 1: nailed his theses to the wall and then it's spread around. 370 00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:32,760 Speaker 1: So the sort of like the viral aspect of a 371 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:36,120 Speaker 1: new communication thing. It's kind of obvious. Everyone can get 372 00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:38,960 Speaker 1: the role, everyone can understand how the new medium allowed 373 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:41,879 Speaker 1: it to spread. But the other point that she made 374 00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:46,280 Speaker 1: is that prior to Martin Luther, the printing press allowed 375 00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:49,760 Speaker 1: people to start to read the Bible themselves, see the 376 00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:55,480 Speaker 1: hypocrisys and the errors and the you know, the compromises 377 00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:59,119 Speaker 1: made by their you know, the theologians of the time. 378 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:03,320 Speaker 1: And so even before there was a criticism, even before 379 00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:06,080 Speaker 1: there was a new idea that was spread the foundations 380 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:09,399 Speaker 1: of the old idea, the existing establishment was starting to 381 00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:12,919 Speaker 1: crumble thanks to the printing press. And so it sounds 382 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:16,920 Speaker 1: very similar. Even without the idea of something new, like 383 00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:20,840 Speaker 1: the Islamic State, you still have people learning about say 384 00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:24,160 Speaker 1: things they don't like that Saudi Arabia does, or various 385 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:27,119 Speaker 1: leaders in the Muslim world. They could start to see 386 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:30,000 Speaker 1: the cracks. You got it exactly right with this comparison 387 00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:34,000 Speaker 1: to the Reformation, because if you look at what preceded 388 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:37,200 Speaker 1: the Islamic State in the twenty years before it, there 389 00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:41,199 Speaker 1: was no shortage of of accusations of having been co 390 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:45,360 Speaker 1: opted to existing scholars, they would say, the Islamic States 391 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:47,359 Speaker 1: scholars would would have would have been saying for a 392 00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:53,280 Speaker 1: long time, Look you are Toady's of major Muslim powers, 393 00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:58,200 Speaker 1: of say a Lazar University in Cairo, and they'd say, look, 394 00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:00,679 Speaker 1: how can we trust you. Our dollars are the ones 395 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:02,919 Speaker 1: who have been in prison for their beliefs. They have 396 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:05,840 Speaker 1: not been paid off. Your scholars are the ones who 397 00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:09,159 Speaker 1: are in palaces. Obviously we're the ones who have integrity. 398 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:12,240 Speaker 1: And so yeah, there is a kind of pre existing 399 00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:15,400 Speaker 1: rot that the Islamic State was able to point to 400 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:19,320 Speaker 1: to undercut the authority of those who opposed them. All right, 401 00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:23,040 Speaker 1: Graham Wood, the book is the Way of the Strangers 402 00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:25,960 Speaker 1: Encounters with the Islamic State. I have to say it 403 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:28,159 Speaker 1: is a must read. I tore through it and I 404 00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:42,880 Speaker 1: really appreciate you coming on. Thank you so Tracy. How 405 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:45,000 Speaker 1: do you think that went for the start of our 406 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:50,080 Speaker 1: money Markets in Crime series? Uh? Yeah, I mean I'm excited. 407 00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:53,360 Speaker 1: As you said in the intro, isis is probably one 408 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:56,880 Speaker 1: of the biggest criminal organizations in the world. So I'm 409 00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:01,000 Speaker 1: struggling to see how we're going to top this one. Um. 410 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:05,040 Speaker 1: But on the plus side, like for me, it's really interesting. 411 00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:08,400 Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, the Fiat versus gold stuff is always interesting. 412 00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:11,280 Speaker 1: But the thing that you know, I'm obsessed with is 413 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:15,080 Speaker 1: the idea of how the internet has been changing the world. 414 00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:18,760 Speaker 1: And I hate to echo what Graham said, but you're 415 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:22,040 Speaker 1: exactly right when you refer to the Reformation and the 416 00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:26,199 Speaker 1: printing press, because those are the things that essentially started 417 00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:32,679 Speaker 1: enabling every person two filter their own information and to 418 00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:36,040 Speaker 1: select their own information that they were interested in. And 419 00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:40,640 Speaker 1: that was probably the beginning of the Balkanization of media 420 00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:44,880 Speaker 1: that is currently being carried out to extremes. I don't wanna, 421 00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:46,560 Speaker 1: you know, shoot my own horn, So let's go back 422 00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:49,720 Speaker 1: to the money thing real quickly, I think, but thank you. 423 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:55,960 Speaker 1: The point about the law against exporting the Islamic coins 424 00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:59,520 Speaker 1: I found interesting because if you read monetary history, and 425 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:01,439 Speaker 1: we have you have a guest coming up in a 426 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:03,800 Speaker 1: few weeks, we're gonna be talking about the monetary history 427 00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:06,880 Speaker 1: of the French Revolution. If you read any monetary history, 428 00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:11,119 Speaker 1: every regime always deals with this issue of if the 429 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:15,040 Speaker 1: money is intrinsically valuable, why leave it in the country, 430 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:18,119 Speaker 1: And so at some point is Graham noted some coin 431 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:20,159 Speaker 1: collectors somewhere is going to get one of these coins 432 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:23,560 Speaker 1: and it's going to be a fascinating an object of fascination. 433 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:26,240 Speaker 1: But just this idea that the sort of trying to 434 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:29,040 Speaker 1: reinvent a new currency or a new system ends up 435 00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:32,360 Speaker 1: with the economic problems of the old systems that we've 436 00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:35,800 Speaker 1: for millennia, I think is hundreds of years at least, 437 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:38,600 Speaker 1: it's pretty fascinating. Yeah. Well, I mean the obvious point 438 00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:41,359 Speaker 1: on that is because they're trying to invent a monetary 439 00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:44,320 Speaker 1: system that is from the Middle Ages, and they're quite 440 00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:47,960 Speaker 1: explicit about that, aren't they. Yeah, and it's never gonna 441 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:50,880 Speaker 1: go away. You know, this idea of utopian or what 442 00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:54,960 Speaker 1: others might say crankish monetary policy views that if we 443 00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:58,040 Speaker 1: could just have all money be based on hard currency, 444 00:25:58,280 --> 00:25:59,719 Speaker 1: or if we could get rid of the banks, if 445 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:01,560 Speaker 1: we get rid of the interest rates, there are all 446 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:04,280 Speaker 1: these these ideas will probably never go away, and they're 447 00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:08,560 Speaker 1: just going to continue to have adherents in various contexts, 448 00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 1: in various places around the world. That's what continues to 449 00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:16,160 Speaker 1: amaze me is that um gold and you know, shiny 450 00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:20,080 Speaker 1: metals seem to have this hold over the collective imagination 451 00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:23,760 Speaker 1: and it just it doesn't seem to loosen. Like everywhere 452 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:26,160 Speaker 1: you go in the world and you encounter people who 453 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:30,440 Speaker 1: think that paper currency is in some way fake and 454 00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:34,640 Speaker 1: we should replace everything with gold. Um, it's really amazing. 455 00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:37,480 Speaker 1: And you've written about this, right joke, like just the 456 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:41,639 Speaker 1: the sway that gold seems to have over people. You know, 457 00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:43,560 Speaker 1: at some point, my view is we just got to 458 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:46,560 Speaker 1: accept it, like we can argue forever that oh, like 459 00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:49,399 Speaker 1: it doesn't make any sense. It's a barbarous relic as 460 00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:52,160 Speaker 1: Knees called it, but it's not going away. Like that's 461 00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:54,280 Speaker 1: just the fact that gold is not going away. So 462 00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:57,159 Speaker 1: and just sort of accepted. All right, Well, this has 463 00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:02,240 Speaker 1: been another edition of the Odd Law Podcast. I'm Joe Wisenthal. 464 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:05,400 Speaker 1: You can follow me on Twitter at the Stalwart and 465 00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:09,320 Speaker 1: I'm Tracy Halloway. I'm on Twitter at Tracy Alloway. And 466 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:13,000 Speaker 1: you can follow Graham on Twitter at g car g 467 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:16,479 Speaker 1: c a W. Please tune in next week when we 468 00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:21,399 Speaker 1: will be continuing our money, Markets and Crime series. Uh, 469 00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:25,600 Speaker 1: we have a lot of bad behavior and economics and 470 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:28,320 Speaker 1: finance to get through. Thanks for listening.