WEBVTT - When the Night Comes Falling 0:00:03.200 --> 0:00:05.920 It's such a harrowing account and it's so well written. 0:00:05.920 --> 0:00:08.639 In hearing you speak about it now, I can't imagine 0:00:08.680 --> 0:00:11.480 the level of emotional regulation a human would have to 0:00:11.560 --> 0:00:14.000 have to be in the car with your own parent, 0:00:14.360 --> 0:00:17.040 knowing that the police are looking for you, the world 0:00:17.160 --> 0:00:20.599 is looking for you, and your car has been identified. 0:00:20.760 --> 0:00:23.040 And until the trial, I'd like to think that When 0:00:23.040 --> 0:00:26.440 the Night Comes Falling is the best source of information 0:00:26.520 --> 0:00:27.560 to what really happens. 0:00:33.880 --> 0:00:37.760 This is the Idaho Massacre, a production of KATI Studios 0:00:37.880 --> 0:00:43.800 and iHeartRadio, Season two, episode five, When the Night Comes Falling, 0:00:44.080 --> 0:00:49.320 a requiem for the Idaho student murders. I'm Courtney Armstrong, 0:00:49.400 --> 0:00:53.560 a producer at KATI Studios with Stephanie Leidecker and Gabe Castillo. 0:00:55.560 --> 0:00:58.760 With the gag order firmly in place, reporting in fact 0:00:58.760 --> 0:01:02.920 finding has been difficult and often non traditional, But even 0:01:02.960 --> 0:01:06.160 given those restraints, a pivotal new book is emerged, written 0:01:06.160 --> 0:01:13.120 by Howard Bloom. The Kirkus review says it quote thoughtfully 0:01:13.200 --> 0:01:16.440 probes into the motives of key players in this intriguing 0:01:16.680 --> 0:01:18.600 yet profoundly unsettling story. 0:01:20.600 --> 0:01:23.120 The book shares the months leading up to the murders 0:01:23.160 --> 0:01:26.640 of Xana Kernodle, her boyfriend Ethan Chapin, Madison Mogan, and 0:01:26.720 --> 0:01:28.320 Kaylee Gonzolvez. 0:01:27.959 --> 0:01:32.800 Bone Chilling, Brian Coburger details and merged. 0:01:32.800 --> 0:01:35.760 Did the accused killer of the four University of Idaho 0:01:35.840 --> 0:01:39.080 students have a deadly obsession with one of the victims. 0:01:39.480 --> 0:01:42.600 Chilling revelations about the murders are detailed in When the 0:01:42.720 --> 0:01:43.600 Night Comes Falling. 0:01:44.880 --> 0:01:47.560 Stephanie and I sat down with Howard Bloom to discuss 0:01:47.600 --> 0:01:50.200 his book, which just came out on June twenty fifth. 0:01:50.600 --> 0:01:53.040 We started out by asking him to provide a bit 0:01:53.080 --> 0:01:54.480 of context to his career. 0:01:58.120 --> 0:02:02.080 When I finished graduate school Stamford, I came out worked 0:02:02.080 --> 0:02:05.200 at the Village Voice for a little bit, and then 0:02:05.240 --> 0:02:07.360 I was hired by the New York Times and I 0:02:07.480 --> 0:02:10.120 was there for about twelve years, twelve and a half 0:02:10.240 --> 0:02:14.639 years as an investigative reporter. Was nominated for two pullets 0:02:14.680 --> 0:02:19.040 by the Times and a lot of awards, and then 0:02:19.080 --> 0:02:23.040 I went on and I've done sixteen books, many bestsellers, 0:02:23.520 --> 0:02:26.080 wrote for Vanity Fair for a couple of decades, and 0:02:26.600 --> 0:02:29.520 wrote one magazine awards. And so I've been doing this, 0:02:29.639 --> 0:02:32.640 knocking on doors, trying to put together stories, trying to 0:02:32.680 --> 0:02:36.880 get readers interested in what I hope are compelling, true narratives. 0:02:37.480 --> 0:02:39.360 How did you land on the title? It was an 0:02:39.400 --> 0:02:40.239 intriguing title. 0:02:40.919 --> 0:02:43.079 Well, when the Night Comes Falling. I'm a big Bob 0:02:43.160 --> 0:02:45.880 Dylan fan. When the Night Comes Falling from the sky 0:02:46.520 --> 0:02:48.680 is a Bob Dylan song that always sort of plays 0:02:48.720 --> 0:02:53.480 in my head. And hearing a dark night in Moscow. 0:02:53.560 --> 0:02:57.720 I remember walking the streets of Moscow, walking right down 0:02:57.800 --> 0:03:00.839 King Road, and I sort of struck by that song. 0:03:00.880 --> 0:03:03.480 I could hear that song sort of playing in my head, 0:03:03.760 --> 0:03:06.480 your letters burning in the fireplace, and when the night 0:03:06.520 --> 0:03:08.960 comes falling from the sky, And I thought, well, falling 0:03:09.000 --> 0:03:10.760 from the sky a little too much, so just when 0:03:10.800 --> 0:03:14.320 the night comes falling. I remember being out in front 0:03:14.360 --> 0:03:17.320 of the murder house not long after it happened, and 0:03:17.360 --> 0:03:20.240 they just walled it up, put a plywood wall in 0:03:20.240 --> 0:03:22.760 front of it. I was thinking to myself, what was 0:03:22.800 --> 0:03:25.320 that to keep people from breaking in? Or was that 0:03:25.400 --> 0:03:28.280 to keep the demons inside? To lock it up? And 0:03:28.320 --> 0:03:32.080 then suddenly I'm caught in a cone of light from nowhere. 0:03:32.120 --> 0:03:34.880 It startles me and I figured off with light when 0:03:34.880 --> 0:03:37.840 the night comes falling, And the cone of light was 0:03:37.840 --> 0:03:40.720 from a security car that been parked a caddy corner 0:03:41.080 --> 0:03:44.040 was black and the night was dark to the murder house, 0:03:44.440 --> 0:03:47.600 and they were just checking on me. An officer called out, 0:03:47.800 --> 0:03:51.280 be careful, it's icy out there, and I said, thank you, officer, 0:03:51.400 --> 0:03:53.840 and I went on my way. But that's sort of 0:03:53.840 --> 0:03:57.080 being surprised out there. I could almost imagine what it's 0:03:57.200 --> 0:03:59.560 like to be awoken in from your sleep in that 0:03:59.680 --> 0:04:04.000 house someone say there's someone here, and then you feel 0:04:04.000 --> 0:04:06.200 like the night comes falling from the sky. 0:04:06.880 --> 0:04:09.880 Can you just describe how did you start to follow 0:04:09.920 --> 0:04:13.040 this story and what was your reporting? Like I understand 0:04:13.040 --> 0:04:17.200 there were trips to Idaho, Pennsylvania, hundreds of interviews. 0:04:18.240 --> 0:04:21.840 I first really heard about the story any detail around 0:04:21.839 --> 0:04:25.760 the Thanksgiving table up in Connecticut just days after the murder. 0:04:25.880 --> 0:04:28.640 People started talking about it and I hadn't paid too 0:04:28.680 --> 0:04:31.960 much attention to it, and the more they talked about it, 0:04:32.080 --> 0:04:36.320 I was pretty interesting. It was a murder filled with perplexities, 0:04:36.680 --> 0:04:40.040 nothing was known, and I thought this might be an 0:04:40.080 --> 0:04:44.240 interesting story to investigate. I called up Graydon Carter or 0:04:44.480 --> 0:04:47.919 emailed him, who ran airmail, and I said, Grayden, do 0:04:47.960 --> 0:04:50.359 I've worked for for a while at Vanity Fair, and 0:04:50.720 --> 0:04:53.880 there's an old acquaintance and a wonderful editor. I said, 0:04:54.040 --> 0:04:55.599 you know, I'd like to go out there. What do 0:04:55.640 --> 0:04:59.320 you guys think? And he and Alexander Stanley, who run airmail, 0:04:59.360 --> 0:05:01.920 said sure, going out there. And I said, I don't 0:05:01.960 --> 0:05:04.960 know what I'll find, but go ahead, young, knock on doors. 0:05:05.040 --> 0:05:08.880 I put on my reporters French go out, knock on doors. 0:05:09.120 --> 0:05:10.680 And I was there for a couple of days, and 0:05:10.720 --> 0:05:12.480 I figured I had no idea that I was going 0:05:12.520 --> 0:05:15.640 to write a piece or even certainly not a book, 0:05:15.800 --> 0:05:18.360 but I thought I solved the case. This was when 0:05:18.640 --> 0:05:22.160 no one knew who the suspect was, and I figured 0:05:22.160 --> 0:05:24.880 it out. The house is sort of in this gully 0:05:25.160 --> 0:05:28.200 around it, and most of the fancier houses in the 0:05:28.520 --> 0:05:33.159 nearby that area were members of this local church group, 0:05:33.240 --> 0:05:36.599 the christ Church Kirkass Group, and they had had some 0:05:37.160 --> 0:05:41.640 problems with the community. Their deacon had gone to jail 0:05:42.160 --> 0:05:46.440 or pedophilia. Their members of young women in the group 0:05:46.480 --> 0:05:51.360 had posted videos complaining about sexual harassment, sex crimes, whatever, 0:05:51.680 --> 0:05:54.520 and so I thought, well, maybe someone from this group 0:05:54.680 --> 0:05:58.000 was involved. Maybe it was a sexual nature. So I 0:05:58.080 --> 0:06:01.760 tried to track down the men. Doug Wilson of the group, 0:06:01.960 --> 0:06:05.800 and he's not returning my call. So intrepidly I go 0:06:06.520 --> 0:06:09.520 to the church parking lot and I corner him and 0:06:09.520 --> 0:06:15.240 he's very gracious. He's a very charismatic, a wonderfully articulate man. 0:06:15.520 --> 0:06:17.960 I disagree with everything he says, but he's a very 0:06:18.000 --> 0:06:22.520 impressive figure, and he very graciously invites me into his 0:06:22.600 --> 0:06:26.840 office and he's talking to me. We're sitting almost Caddy 0:06:26.880 --> 0:06:29.640 corner in a room, and he's telling me the problems 0:06:29.680 --> 0:06:32.400 that they're having in the town with the local officials. 0:06:32.440 --> 0:06:35.040 He talks about a war with the police because of 0:06:35.120 --> 0:06:39.240 COVID restrictions, etc. Et cetera. And I suddenly realized, I'm 0:06:39.240 --> 0:06:41.160 trying to solve this case, and I'm in a room 0:06:41.200 --> 0:06:44.520 with this man, as gracious as he is, he hasn't 0:06:44.560 --> 0:06:47.360 been vaccinated. It's the height of the pandemic, and there 0:06:47.360 --> 0:06:50.599 are no windows. And two days later I didn't solve 0:06:50.640 --> 0:06:53.159 the case, but I was stuck in Moscow with COVID. 0:06:53.480 --> 0:06:58.240 So that was my introduction to all this. Then on 0:06:58.279 --> 0:07:01.880 my second trip, though, I began to investigate more and 0:07:01.960 --> 0:07:05.560 trips to Pennsylvania and to Washington State, and I realized 0:07:06.120 --> 0:07:08.680 there was a compelling story here, and I started writing 0:07:08.720 --> 0:07:12.560 the pieces for Airmail. I eventually wrote seven pieces. What 0:07:12.640 --> 0:07:15.520 I thought was, is there a book here? Is there 0:07:15.560 --> 0:07:18.600 a larger story to tell there? You know, everyone realizes 0:07:18.640 --> 0:07:21.160 there hasn't been a trial, but was there a story 0:07:21.200 --> 0:07:23.960 with a beginning, a middle, and an end. I realized 0:07:24.040 --> 0:07:28.680 there was very much the identification, the hunting down, the 0:07:28.720 --> 0:07:32.560 solving of the mystery towards the suspect. Coburger is a 0:07:32.560 --> 0:07:36.560 fascinating story as well as the story of the individuals involved. 0:07:36.840 --> 0:07:40.760 And I found a way I believed to structure the 0:07:40.880 --> 0:07:46.080 narrative and the coherent and compelling, an engrossing way along 0:07:46.480 --> 0:07:51.760 based around the road trip that Coberger takes with his father, 0:07:51.920 --> 0:07:55.280 this trip across country, and my narrative inspiration, you know, 0:07:55.760 --> 0:08:00.560 pretentiously was the Odyssey, you know, this long tenure journey 0:08:00.600 --> 0:08:04.080 by Odysseus. Well, here I have just a five day journey. 0:08:04.280 --> 0:08:07.360 But it was to me rather compelling as Brian and 0:08:07.400 --> 0:08:10.120 his father make this cross country trip, and hanging over 0:08:10.200 --> 0:08:14.360 the entire journey is the father coming to terms in 0:08:14.440 --> 0:08:17.600 his mind with whether or not, oh my gosh, could 0:08:17.600 --> 0:08:20.920 my son be actually involved in the murder of these 0:08:20.960 --> 0:08:23.880 four young people. That to me was a dramatic moment, 0:08:23.960 --> 0:08:26.160 and I use that to go back and forth in 0:08:26.200 --> 0:08:27.320 time to tell this tale. 0:08:28.000 --> 0:08:31.360 Structurally, I think it works beautifully. Thank you on that 0:08:31.440 --> 0:08:34.400 five day drive. Can you talk us through it a 0:08:34.440 --> 0:08:38.760 little bit. I had not realized that the FBI were 0:08:38.840 --> 0:08:42.920 so uncoordinated with the ground officers. Can you just describe 0:08:42.920 --> 0:08:44.680 the details of that. 0:08:45.400 --> 0:08:49.080 What happens is around December eleventh, And this is one 0:08:49.080 --> 0:08:52.480 of the revelations in this book. The FBI, working in 0:08:52.559 --> 0:08:58.720 Quantico has deciphered the genetic genealogy to make Coburger a 0:08:58.800 --> 0:09:02.560 person of interest, built out the family tree, and at 0:09:02.559 --> 0:09:05.920 the end of the father's branch they've found Brian Cooberger. 0:09:06.280 --> 0:09:10.240 They don't share this information with the local Moscow task force. 0:09:10.679 --> 0:09:13.640 Why do they not do this well, the most generous 0:09:13.679 --> 0:09:19.280 explanation would be that they're not sure investigative genetic genealogy 0:09:19.600 --> 0:09:22.520 is not allowed into courts. They don't want to prejudice 0:09:22.520 --> 0:09:24.880 the case. They want to make sure the task force 0:09:24.880 --> 0:09:27.240 connects all the dots. He's just a person of interest. 0:09:27.559 --> 0:09:32.640 That's a generous explanation. A more cynical explanation is that 0:09:32.720 --> 0:09:35.520 the FBI wanted to get all the credit for solving 0:09:35.559 --> 0:09:38.240 the case. They didn't want to share it with the 0:09:38.320 --> 0:09:41.160 local authorities. They wanted to come off as the g 0:09:41.320 --> 0:09:44.160 men who solved this great mystery which the whole nation 0:09:44.320 --> 0:09:48.440 is fixated on whatever reason. When the Coburgers leave, the 0:09:48.520 --> 0:09:51.400 FBI is following them, but they want The FBI wants 0:09:51.400 --> 0:09:54.520 the Coburgers to get out of town first before they 0:09:54.559 --> 0:09:57.320 get directly on their tail. And they don't want the 0:09:57.360 --> 0:10:00.079 Moscow police, you know, And they also don't want on 0:10:00.600 --> 0:10:05.400 the Coburgers to know. Meanwhile, Brian Coburger picks a route, 0:10:05.480 --> 0:10:08.480 and he's not going to the straightest the quickest distance 0:10:08.480 --> 0:10:10.840 between two points is a straight line. He's not going 0:10:10.880 --> 0:10:13.480 that way. He's going down to Colorado. His dad had 0:10:13.520 --> 0:10:16.880 already marked it out, and so he's taking this different 0:10:16.920 --> 0:10:21.040 route because arguably he's trying to evade anyone following him. 0:10:21.360 --> 0:10:24.839 He's trying to take invasive actions. This change of route 0:10:24.840 --> 0:10:27.839 from what the father had previously planned and mapped out 0:10:27.880 --> 0:10:31.120 before he came out there leads to tensions and Brian 0:10:31.240 --> 0:10:34.920 is extremely followed him and his father realizes he's caught 0:10:34.960 --> 0:10:36.839 his son in a bit of a mood, and he 0:10:37.679 --> 0:10:42.600 seen Brian's moods before, so his usual reaction is WHOA. 0:10:42.720 --> 0:10:45.920 He steps back. He doesn't want to get too close 0:10:45.960 --> 0:10:51.079 to this slimmering volcano. So father is in this car, 0:10:51.520 --> 0:10:55.000 the FBI is following. They have vehicles on the road. 0:10:55.120 --> 0:10:57.880 They have a cessna above like a hawk, waiting to 0:10:57.920 --> 0:11:00.400 swoop down at the right moment when they put the 0:11:00.400 --> 0:11:05.600 pieces together. And meanwhile the father is slowly, slowly putting 0:11:05.600 --> 0:11:09.000 pieces together in his mind. Four people were murdered just 0:11:09.080 --> 0:11:11.440 ten miles from where his son is living. His son 0:11:11.520 --> 0:11:15.120 is in this highly agitated state. The father was concerned 0:11:15.200 --> 0:11:18.199 enough about his son to make the trip out there 0:11:18.360 --> 0:11:21.160 to accompany him, and they just happened to be sitting 0:11:21.240 --> 0:11:24.160 shoulder to shoulder in a white Honde, a Lantra, which 0:11:24.200 --> 0:11:27.840 is the precise car the authorities have announced they're looking 0:11:27.880 --> 0:11:33.080 for in this murder. So the father is of course suspicious. Then, 0:11:33.400 --> 0:11:37.040 as a drive across America, two things start to happen 0:11:37.120 --> 0:11:39.600 quickly and by the second day of the trip. But 0:11:39.720 --> 0:11:42.240 first after the FBI loses them and then finds them again. 0:11:42.760 --> 0:11:45.880 The first thing that happens is there's a shooting right 0:11:45.880 --> 0:11:51.840 near Brian Coburger's university residence. A Army veteran has taken 0:11:52.000 --> 0:11:56.000 two students hostage. He lets the students go, the swat 0:11:56.040 --> 0:11:58.280 team moves in. They can't talk him out of it 0:11:58.400 --> 0:12:02.520 or the swat team acts arguably precipitously, and they shoot 0:12:02.840 --> 0:12:07.040 a veteran dead. And father and the son get an 0:12:07.080 --> 0:12:10.520 alert from the university about this, and this triggers off 0:12:11.040 --> 0:12:15.680 more thoughts in his father's mind about the benevolence of 0:12:15.760 --> 0:12:19.240 the situation. His son is caught up in that there's 0:12:19.280 --> 0:12:22.800 something wrong with being with the West, and his son 0:12:22.840 --> 0:12:25.480 has been trapped in this Oh my gosh. And just 0:12:25.520 --> 0:12:28.600 as these thoughts are taking shape in his mind, they 0:12:28.600 --> 0:12:32.880 see flashing lights and there's a sheriff's deputy car in 0:12:32.880 --> 0:12:36.079 Indiana asking them to pull over. And his father at 0:12:36.080 --> 0:12:39.920 this point realizes, oh my gosh, everything I've been thinking 0:12:39.960 --> 0:12:44.600 about is quite possibly true, and this is some situation 0:12:44.679 --> 0:12:46.719 I'm in. And he doesn't know how to make this realization, 0:12:47.440 --> 0:12:50.720 but turns out, both to the father's relief and to 0:12:50.800 --> 0:12:53.520 the FBI's relief, who's also watching this, they don't understand 0:12:53.559 --> 0:12:57.040 what's happening. This was just a traffic stop. They go off. 0:12:57.520 --> 0:13:01.160 Nine minutes later, the same thing happens once again. There's 0:13:01.200 --> 0:13:03.880 a traffic stop, this time by a state trooper. He 0:13:03.960 --> 0:13:08.120 pulls the car over again. It's a traffic infraction. But 0:13:08.240 --> 0:13:11.520 the father now can't help the feeling all his thoughts 0:13:11.880 --> 0:13:16.400 are becoming true. Everything he feared, every thought he was 0:13:16.400 --> 0:13:20.480 trying to repress, is becoming closer and closer to reality, 0:13:20.880 --> 0:13:24.240 as if he's following footsteps in the snow and getting 0:13:24.280 --> 0:13:27.280 closer and closer to his destination of where they're going 0:13:27.320 --> 0:13:30.640 to lead. And he doesn't like where it's leading one bit. 0:13:31.200 --> 0:13:34.800 And as this journey continues, and as they arrive in Pennsylvania, 0:13:35.200 --> 0:13:38.360 the father is suddenly filled with a sort of dread 0:13:38.600 --> 0:13:41.360 that he can't quite articulate. But at the same moment 0:13:41.480 --> 0:13:42.960 he knows what is happening. 0:13:43.640 --> 0:13:46.360 It's such a harrowing account, and it's so well written. 0:13:46.360 --> 0:13:50.040 In hearing you speak about it now, it's me so queasy. 0:13:50.080 --> 0:13:53.240 I can't imagine the level of emotional regulation a human 0:13:53.280 --> 0:13:55.200 would have to have to be in the car with 0:13:55.280 --> 0:13:58.600 your own parent, knowing that the police are looking for you, 0:13:58.679 --> 0:14:01.839 the world is looking for you. Your car has been identified, 0:14:02.040 --> 0:14:05.840 and you're with somebody who who knows you well, how 0:14:05.880 --> 0:14:08.080 do you keep that together, and we too have often 0:14:08.120 --> 0:14:11.160 speculated about what that car ride must have been. Like, 0:14:11.360 --> 0:14:13.679 you had an interesting point, and we had heard something 0:14:13.760 --> 0:14:18.240 similar to about the early days of Brian moving into 0:14:18.920 --> 0:14:21.840 his apartment when he had actually made the move, and 0:14:21.880 --> 0:14:25.200 that Dad was sort of, you know, trying to how 0:14:25.240 --> 0:14:28.920 we interpreted it, was trying to make him some friends 0:14:29.040 --> 0:14:32.600 in and around the apartment complex. And just like you, 0:14:32.680 --> 0:14:34.640 that always sort of stuck in my head because it 0:14:34.680 --> 0:14:37.640 was two part. Either that means, look, my son's been 0:14:37.680 --> 0:14:40.480 a little bit awkward his whole life and maybe has 0:14:41.040 --> 0:14:45.040 a difficult problem with meeting new friends and social cues, 0:14:45.080 --> 0:14:48.760 et cetera. So Dad's in the habit of trying to 0:14:48.880 --> 0:14:51.720 create comfort for his son, knowing that it's hard for 0:14:51.800 --> 0:14:54.680 him to kind of acclimate. That's sort of touching and 0:14:54.720 --> 0:14:58.000 it kind of hurts to hear. Or does that also 0:14:58.160 --> 0:15:02.360 point to I knew something was really seriously, dreadfully wrong 0:15:02.400 --> 0:15:05.840 with my son, and we're hoping for the best here 0:15:06.440 --> 0:15:09.920 and he's off to the races and I'm going to 0:15:09.960 --> 0:15:11.440 try my best, but he's a grown man. 0:15:11.880 --> 0:15:12.000 You know. 0:15:12.080 --> 0:15:12.880 Where do you put that? 0:15:13.400 --> 0:15:15.360 Yeah, it's sort of a little of both. I mean, 0:15:15.400 --> 0:15:19.000 you're right, on I agree with you very much. I mean, 0:15:19.520 --> 0:15:22.840 the father sixty eight years old. Money is tight in 0:15:22.880 --> 0:15:27.200 the family. He's a janitor. They've gone been bankrupt twice 0:15:27.240 --> 0:15:30.320 over the years. He still makes his cross country trip 0:15:30.360 --> 0:15:33.560 in August with his son to the university for the 0:15:33.600 --> 0:15:36.000 first time. Then he has to turn around and go again. 0:15:36.120 --> 0:15:39.080 And why does he do this Because he's worried about 0:15:39.080 --> 0:15:41.360 what's going to happen to his son. How is his 0:15:41.440 --> 0:15:44.240 son going to fit in? He knows Brian is a 0:15:44.280 --> 0:15:48.160 square peg in every roundhole he's been in life, and 0:15:48.280 --> 0:15:51.320 he just doesn't know. And remember, you know, this is 0:15:51.360 --> 0:15:53.720 not a father driving a young kid off to college 0:15:53.800 --> 0:15:56.680 like maybe we did at one point. Brian is twenty 0:15:56.720 --> 0:15:59.840 eight years old, he's going to be teaching young kids, 0:16:00.080 --> 0:16:02.640 teaching assistant, he's going for his doctorate. And still the 0:16:02.680 --> 0:16:05.920 father feels he has to accompany him. And when he 0:16:06.000 --> 0:16:09.720 gets to Washington State University, one of the first things 0:16:09.720 --> 0:16:12.360 the father takes it upon himself to do. They saw 0:16:12.400 --> 0:16:17.480 a neighbor in the elevator. I think it was Christopher Martine, 0:16:17.680 --> 0:16:20.080 so one of the guys, and he says, you know, 0:16:20.120 --> 0:16:22.800 we watch out for my son. He's a hard time 0:16:22.840 --> 0:16:26.560 making friends. Anything you can do, I appreciate it. And 0:16:26.760 --> 0:16:29.880 Martinez is a generous soul. And two days later he 0:16:29.920 --> 0:16:34.040 invites Coburger to a pool party, and this is Coburger's 0:16:34.120 --> 0:16:37.600 first entrance into the pool part takes place in Moscow 0:16:37.800 --> 0:16:41.520 at a complex called I Think the Grove in Moscow, 0:16:41.880 --> 0:16:44.920 and Brian goes to this school party and what happens 0:16:44.920 --> 0:16:46.880 at the pool party. I interviewed many of the people 0:16:47.960 --> 0:16:50.200 at the pool party. It's also sort of interesting, and 0:16:50.320 --> 0:16:53.080 this is sort of news that hasn't been reported to 0:16:53.520 --> 0:16:56.840 such a scene for part of who Brian is and 0:16:56.880 --> 0:17:00.480 why a book like this can come out now before trial, 0:17:00.760 --> 0:17:02.800 because I'd like to think I'm giving you the reader's 0:17:02.880 --> 0:17:06.240 insight into the characters in this story. Brian goes to 0:17:06.280 --> 0:17:08.879 this party. He's sitting on the edge of the pool 0:17:09.040 --> 0:17:12.440 talking to one of the guys, and he sees these 0:17:12.440 --> 0:17:16.080 two young women, attractive women there in black two piece 0:17:16.200 --> 0:17:18.399 bathing suits, and he goes up to one of them 0:17:18.440 --> 0:17:20.159 and just picks himself up without saying a word to 0:17:20.200 --> 0:17:22.879 the guy he's talking to, goes up and asks for 0:17:22.920 --> 0:17:27.359 her phone number and he gets it. Then, without almost 0:17:27.440 --> 0:17:30.280 breaking stride, he goes to her friend and asks her 0:17:30.520 --> 0:17:33.400 this is for her phone number, and he gets it too, 0:17:33.800 --> 0:17:36.040 and the guy who's watching him says, what, this guy's 0:17:36.080 --> 0:17:40.200 a player. He's pretty cool, dude. And Brian comes back 0:17:40.400 --> 0:17:43.360 and just leaves the party. I spoke with the two 0:17:43.359 --> 0:17:47.960 women involved. He never calls them. However, after his arrest, 0:17:48.160 --> 0:17:51.600 they began to rethink the events, and they realized they 0:17:51.640 --> 0:17:53.840 were getting a lot of hang up calls in the 0:17:53.880 --> 0:17:57.480 weeks following their giving their phone number to Brian at 0:17:57.480 --> 0:18:01.480 the party, and they apothe size that perhaps this was 0:18:01.520 --> 0:18:04.720 Brian calling them but not having the nerve to initiate 0:18:04.760 --> 0:18:08.280 the conversation. And that's sort of the metaphor for the 0:18:08.320 --> 0:18:11.200 state he was in. He had taken himself so far. 0:18:11.640 --> 0:18:16.600 He made this journey from this kid from a heartscrabble 0:18:16.640 --> 0:18:21.919 Pennsylvania community, from an overweight heroin addict to becoming a 0:18:22.000 --> 0:18:27.359 doctoral candidate at a very prestigious university. And he had 0:18:27.400 --> 0:18:31.680 turned his body into a fortress. He'd reached his hair, 0:18:32.119 --> 0:18:35.320 he was looking good, he was in shape, hanging out 0:18:35.320 --> 0:18:38.439 at the pool, and yet he couldn't go to the 0:18:38.480 --> 0:18:42.199 next step of integrating his life to that of a 0:18:42.280 --> 0:18:46.520 normal twenty eight year old, a normal guy who wanted 0:18:46.560 --> 0:18:49.320 to just meet people and have friends and have a 0:18:49.440 --> 0:18:53.600 social life. It was just an impossibility for him, almost. 0:18:53.320 --> 0:18:57.040 As though he mustered the courage and then couldn't follow through, 0:18:57.160 --> 0:19:00.560 so it took everything he had potentially. I've always sort 0:19:00.560 --> 0:19:03.280 of drawn a connection in my head, this is again 0:19:03.400 --> 0:19:06.720 only in my head, between Brian and his sisters, and 0:19:07.560 --> 0:19:11.560 just this relationship he has with women is interesting given 0:19:11.600 --> 0:19:13.760 he grew up as the baby of women and was 0:19:13.840 --> 0:19:16.199 raised by older sisters, and by all accounts we hear 0:19:16.240 --> 0:19:18.679 they're lovely and all of the above, and I was 0:19:18.720 --> 0:19:20.879 curious if you just had an opinion on that. I 0:19:20.960 --> 0:19:23.200 know the dad is a primary focus. 0:19:23.640 --> 0:19:27.000 One of his sisters, who's a family psychologist, plays an 0:19:27.000 --> 0:19:30.440 interesting role in all this. After they get back to Pennsylvania, 0:19:30.600 --> 0:19:34.639 so Christmas Holidays, the whole family is there, and I 0:19:34.760 --> 0:19:38.600 describe as the sister the psychologist sees a couple of 0:19:38.600 --> 0:19:42.120 things that give her pause. She sees Brian cleaning out 0:19:42.480 --> 0:19:46.080 his car meticulously the same sort of white Hondai a 0:19:46.160 --> 0:19:48.719 Lantra that the police just happened to be looking for 0:19:48.960 --> 0:19:52.359 that was involved in a quadruple murder. Then she sees 0:19:52.440 --> 0:19:57.120 Brian sorting in his garbage, his personal garbage into plastic 0:19:57.960 --> 0:20:01.240 zimp lock bags, walking out of the house, going down 0:20:01.240 --> 0:20:04.240 the hill not to the family's garbage pails, but to 0:20:04.320 --> 0:20:07.639 the neighbor's garbage pails and putting them in. And you know, 0:20:08.400 --> 0:20:13.000 these set her mind wandering, and she realizes there's something 0:20:13.119 --> 0:20:18.760 seriously wrong and what seems impossible might very likely be true. 0:20:19.000 --> 0:20:22.679 My brother might be involved in these four murders. And 0:20:22.760 --> 0:20:25.600 she goes to confront the father and she says that 0:20:26.200 --> 0:20:28.000 I think we have to face up to something. I 0:20:28.040 --> 0:20:30.920 think we might have a problem. And the father, who's 0:20:30.960 --> 0:20:33.560 been having all these thoughts all the way across America, 0:20:33.880 --> 0:20:36.679 when he hears this, what does he do? He turns 0:20:36.720 --> 0:20:40.040 around and just leaves the room because it's it's too impossible. 0:20:40.240 --> 0:20:43.840 It means thinking the unthinkable. And yet, as I point 0:20:43.880 --> 0:20:46.600 out in my book, there's sort of an irony that 0:20:46.840 --> 0:20:50.280 as if the next scene comes from a Greek drama. 0:20:50.440 --> 0:20:54.480 And yet when they identify the DNA on the button 0:20:54.560 --> 0:20:58.359 of the knife sheath, they don't identify it to Brian Coberger. 0:20:58.680 --> 0:21:03.080 They identify it Michael Kolberger. And then they realized that 0:21:03.920 --> 0:21:07.520 his son's DNA. The son of Michael Koberger's DNA is 0:21:07.560 --> 0:21:10.480 on that night. She's so in many ways like a 0:21:10.560 --> 0:21:13.159 Greek drama. The hero of the Greek drama or the 0:21:13.200 --> 0:21:16.280 victim of the Greek drama always tries to escape his fate, 0:21:16.600 --> 0:21:18.679 but he can never can He's always pulled back in. 0:21:19.160 --> 0:21:22.600 So is Michael Kolberger. He's pulled back in. His fate 0:21:22.720 --> 0:21:25.359 is to no matter how much he tries not to 0:21:26.400 --> 0:21:28.520 be his reason for his son's downfall. 0:21:29.040 --> 0:21:32.560 I hadn't heard that account of his one sister and 0:21:32.560 --> 0:21:34.440 then the other sister, the middle sister. 0:21:35.040 --> 0:21:36.160 She was an actress. 0:21:36.200 --> 0:21:37.840 And as you know, much has been made about this 0:21:38.000 --> 0:21:41.840 in a slasher movie back many many years ago. But 0:21:41.920 --> 0:21:46.320 the plotline of that particular murder is that nine co 0:21:46.520 --> 0:21:49.080 eds go out into the woods and only seven come back. 0:21:49.160 --> 0:21:53.639 And again, is that a direct connection. No, of course not. 0:21:54.119 --> 0:21:55.920 And I was just curious if you had heard any 0:21:55.960 --> 0:21:57.160 rumblings about that. 0:21:58.320 --> 0:22:02.959 I've heard the rumblings. Tried to connect the dots, and 0:22:03.720 --> 0:22:06.959 I couldn't take it far. I tried to stick to 0:22:07.000 --> 0:22:11.640 what I could substantiate. I didn't want to hypothesize more 0:22:11.720 --> 0:22:14.960 than was necessary about the course of events. I think 0:22:15.280 --> 0:22:18.320 because of the gag order What this case needs is 0:22:18.359 --> 0:22:21.400 an injection of facts. You know, there's such a vacuum 0:22:21.560 --> 0:22:24.880 of people being able to find out what really happened, 0:22:25.160 --> 0:22:27.639 and I wanted to try to fill that vacuum with 0:22:27.800 --> 0:22:34.920 not fatuous speculation or even vicious character assassinations, but I've 0:22:34.960 --> 0:22:39.040 wanted to tell what happened. That gag order is particularly 0:22:39.119 --> 0:22:42.360 pernicious because the trial keeps on getting delayed and delayed 0:22:42.400 --> 0:22:47.000 and delayed. We have a town that's sort of victimized 0:22:47.000 --> 0:22:51.000 by this. There's a lack of understanding, there's a lack 0:22:51.040 --> 0:22:53.960 of ability to move on. They can, you know, bulldoze 0:22:54.359 --> 0:22:57.040 the murder house, the university can take it down, but 0:22:57.640 --> 0:23:01.200 that really is silly. You're not going to get rid 0:23:01.800 --> 0:23:04.919 of what happened that way. What you need is a 0:23:04.960 --> 0:23:08.760